Redmond Rev. Ken Hutcherson celebrated Martin Luther King Jr. Day by promoting discrimination of gays, announcing that he would use an appearance Thursday on the national theo-con talk show, Focus on the Family, to call for a boycott of Microsoft, Boeing and other companies who support gay rights legislation.
“We’re tired of sitting around thinking that morals can be ignored in our country,” he said. “This is not a threat, this is a promise.”
Yeah… sure it is, Ken. In fact, I betcha that not a single member of your Antioch Bible Church will buy a Boeing jetliner this year. That’s gotta be bad for business.
As for Microsoft, well… asking people to boycott Microsoft is pretty much like asking people to boycott oxygen.
But good luck there too Ken. I’ve seen a better than 1000 percent return on my Apple Computer stock over the past few years, and I’m all for anything that bumps it even higher. (Though once your parishioners dump their Windows boxes and buy Macs, I’m wondering what word processor or spreadsheet they’re gonna use?)
One question though…
Hutcherson said he’s not telling companies to change their own internal policies on gay rights. He just doesn’t want them influencing lawmakers with their support.
“Don’t step in our world, we won’t step in yours,” he said.
Um… so… your world, Ken, is influencing lawmakers? And I always thought church had something to do with, you know… religion.
HEY KLAKE
why is it every time I see a blog with your name on it, the contents are always FULL OF SHIT? just wondering
Why am I supposed to care if someone is gay, straight, short, tall, fat, skinny, Christian, Jew or Muslim and allow that to influence where I spend my hard earned money? RightWingNuts bust our chops for telling them how and where spend money. But when the issue is sexual orientation, suddenly the line between church and state is not only blurred, it fucking disappears. A very dangerous movement is barreling full speed directly us, and if we don’t stop it soon, we will all be living in the United Christian States of America.
If a product is good, buy it. If it is not don’t. This is the law of natural attrition. I don’t give a rats ass who made it.
He just doesn’t want them (companies)influencing lawmakers with their support.
Direct action. another idea stolen from the Left. Sheesh.
I will continue my personal boycott of churches and houses of praise in retaliation.
Redmond Rev. Ken Hutcherson celebrated Martin Luther King Jr. Day by promoting discrimination of gays, announcing that he would use an appearance Thursday on the national theo-con talk show, Focus on the Family, to call for a boycott of Microsoft, Boeing and other companies who support gay rights legislation.
Goldy you are taking what he says out of context, listen to what he is say and then make your judgment. This man has his values and principles that conflict with but that does not make either you or Ken wrong. This man does not spout hate or ill will to others who disagree with his philosophies like some folks on this web site. The question you have to ask yourself would society be better serve with special gay rights legislation that would create less understanding of their problems.
Ray Nagin?
Where’s the posts about him demanding New Orleans become a chocolate city? Seems more racist than this..
I submit it is easier to change one’s religion than sexual orientation. If it is illegal to descriminate based on religion then sexual orientation should be on th ebooks too.
klake @ 4:
It’s not “special rights,” you lying, bigoted piece of shit. It’s the same rights the rest of us have — that gay people don’t have — the right not to be discriminated against solely because of who you happen to be.
I can’t be fired in this state for being Jewish, but according to the law as it is now, a boss could fire someone for being gay. 2661 would remove this loophole.
But you knew that. Take your bigoted garbage on out of here.
I think it would be great if the homophobic righties boycott Microsoft. That means they’d pretty much have to turn to Apple and my Apple stock would go up!
But seriously, who cares what these right wing, child molesting, bible thumpin, inbred cowards thinks anyway?
@8 And you still can’t figure out why you lose elections…
Klake @ 4: Your claim that Goldy has taken Hutcherson “out of context” is Orwellian. From later in the same PI article:
“It’s sad that on the day we remember Martin Luther King Jr., that a small minority of people believe it’s OK to fire someone or deny them housing simply because they’re gay,” said Fran Dunaway, executive director of Equal Rights Washington, a group formed to support the gay civil rights bill.
Who said irony is dead?
9.
Losing elections?
Washington Congressional delegation 6 Democrats, 3 Republicans
Washington Governor, Democrat
Washington Senators, 2 Democrats
Washington State Legislature, majority Democrats
King County Executive, Democrat
King County Council, majority Democrat
Seattle Mayor, Democrat
Seattle City Council majority Democrats
Since you guys lose here all the time, your hero is throwing a “Hail Mary” hoping he can scare Washington companies into ignoring the interests of their workforce.
Tell me, will DOD start buying Airbus planes? Switch to Apple?
I think not.
hutchinson’s a rabble rouser who cynically milks the credulous for $$$$$$$’s. he’s no better than pat robertson.
Goldy,
If you want to rail against the author of Pastor Hutchinson’s beliefs, then I suggest that you curse the God who said it.
Genesis 19:5-8
(5) And they called to Lot and said, Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know (be intimate with) them.
(6) And Lot went out of the door to the men and shut the door after him
(7) And said, I beg of you, my brothers, do not behave so wickedly.
(8) Look now, I have two daughters who are virgins; let me, I beg of you, bring them out to you, and you can do as you please with them. But only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.
Leviticus 18:22
(22) You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13
(13) If a man lies with a male as if he were a woman, both men have committed an offense (something perverse, unnatural, abhorrent, and detestable); they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
I Corinthians 6:9
(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
(10) nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
Goldy,
Let’s face it. Hutchinson’s an Ass.
The issue of gay rights should be a non-issue and considering the day, age & location we live in, it would be impossible to not come in daily contact with a Homosexual.
That being said. You seem to put all of the weight of the homophobic thought on Conservative, right wing, religious.
At the same time, you are constantly referring to yourself as a “Middle aged Jew”. It would seem as a self proclaimed Jew and therefeore someone who would clearly live their life within the halakhic process, you would also have to take exception to homosexuals and consider them an abomination..
I’ve never heard you mention your reconstructionist views of Judaism . Or are you merely using your being Jewish as some pathetic, self serving, political, trump card.
BTW, I can only assume that your passing along my IP address to the police disqualified me as the “Anonymous tipster”.
Jaybo, I presume Hutcherson abides by all of Leviticus then….correct? Do you?
In for a penny in for a pound.
Drool,
If the following verse applies to you then…….
Romans 3:19 (Amplified Bible)
(19) Now we know that whatever the Law (The Law of Moses)says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
jaybo: you mean if i threaten to “know” some men, god will instruct some father to let me sleep with his two virgin daughters? wow! that’s my kinda deity!
Then what?
Ironically, I got called to task yesterday at [u]SP for referring to voting as a “sacred” right. Now over here one stumbles into a hotbed of Talmudic examination. Meanwhile, Ray Nagin is trying to muscle in on Pat Robertson’s action. At this rate expect the frogs to begin hailing down any moment…
Clay Shaw,
Did you know that The Bible refers to people like you?
Mock God therefore at your own peril.
2 Peter 3:3-7
(3) To begin with, you must know and understand this, that scoffers (mockers) will come in the last days with scoffing, [people who] walk after their own fleshly desires
(4) And say, Where is the promise of His coming? For since the forefathers fell asleep, all things have continued exactly as they did from the beginning of creation.
(5) For they willfully overlook and forget this [fact], that the heavens [came into] existence long ago by the word of God, and the earth also which was formed out of water and by means of water,
(6) Through which the world that then [existed] was deluged with water and perished.
(7) But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been stored up (reserved) for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly people.
Dear Jaybo,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from you. From now on when someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I will simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians? I like their beer better than Mexican.
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I am nearsighted. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
No religious text should be taken literally. To do so would create far more harm than good.
Jaybo, just let it be.
Jaybo, u r a religious kook too? Why am I not suprised. And, also not suprised that, in showing how God condemns homosexuality, you quote the part of the bible where it’s considered better to offer up ur two vigin daughters to the crowd than allow gay sex. What kind of sick fucking God would say that is the more “moral” position? That’s obscene and against all notions of what 99.9% of the people on this planet consider right. But we’re all bad and u r saved? Puleeze.
I reject that God, and say he is an abomination. Want more mocking? OK, he’s a pussy who sends his son to fight his battles. And, the whole sheperd thing? It’s because he likes goats.
Not stricken by lightning yet, Jaybo.
Jaybo, note ur own side is telling you to cork it. LOL, love it.
Sigmund,
Read carefully if you are really interested in knowing.
Roman 3:19-23
(19) Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that [the murmurs and excuses of] every mouth may be hushed and all the world may be held accountable to God.
(20) For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].
(21) But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,
(22) Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
(23) Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory [b]which God bestows and receives.
Ken is nothing more that a bigot who gets richer every time he motivates other bigots to travel to his “church” and drop cash into the basket. The sad truth is that there are plenty of bigots within an hours drive of his church rental site and his flock will only grow as those who share his bigoted views try to find a place where they feel safe from the big threat of how others live their personal lives.
To those who would say “gosh Mr. Particle, it isn’t really fare to brand the entire flock with Kens bigoted views” I say what a bunch of crap. This man has put his view of this social issue in the spotlight as what defines his church and anyone who attends endorses those views by their attendance. They by their actions are feeding this cancer.I say shame on every one of them.
@11 Elections outside Jim McDermott’s hometown. Like national level.
Larry,
You can mock God all you want to, but someday in front of the entire human race and God you will confess that Jesus is God.
Romans 14:10-12 (Amplified Bible)
(10) Why do you criticize and pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you look down upon or despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.
(11) For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God [acknowledge Him to His honor and to His praise].
(12) And so each of us shall give an account of himself [give an answer in reference to judgment] to God.
Jaybo,
Answer drool’s questions already. I mean it. I’ll be at the beach gathering stones.
Can we really trust the word of God that has been written down by men in one lqanguage and then translated and re-translated into a myriad of other languages? After all, some of the more right wing Protestant folks think Catholicism is an abomination and not Christian, yet the Catholics are the very people that kept the texts of the Bible through the Dark Ages. And how do we account for the Orthodox Christians?
I know the King James version of the Bible is revered in the Protestant world, but it was manipulated by the English monarch who had the word “poisoner” changed to “witch” because he wanted to fight the imagined “pagans” of the day. So, “don’t suffer a poisoner among you” became “don’t suffer a witch among you.” What other changes were made over the years to suit the political climate of the day?
As far as I’m concerned, the pagans have just as much right as every other religion to exist and practice their faith. And the atheists and agnostics can do as they wish, too.
“An it harm no one, do what ye will.” – The Wiccan Rede.
Unfortunately I do find it somewhat sad that a Church whose Philosophy states that:
We believe that God has called Antioch Bible Church to involve all people of all cultures, races, and economic backgrounds in this ministry
Some four decades ago, the Attorney General of Virginia argued before the Supreme Court that prohibiting marriage between the races was perfectly legal as long as it applied to everybody:
In the 18th, 19th, and early 20th century, many American states passed anti-miscegenation laws, often based on interpretations of the Bible, particularly the story of Phinehas. Typically a felony, these laws prohibited the solemnization of weddings between persons of different races and prohibited the officiating of such ceremonies.
So once again history repeats itself. Senior Pastor Ken Hutcherson, ironically an African American would actually attempt to justify discrimination by hiding behind the Bible. What is he afraid of? When the civil rights laws of the 1960’s were passed, did the gods bring forth righteous judgment against the United States? Did the crops whither and die, the milk sour, or the Cities burst into flame (or turn into a pillar of salt). I do not think so.
Equality will finally have the force of law in my state. And things will keep on rolling along just fine, than-you very much.
Poster Child,
The answer to Drool’s questions are encompassed in #25. Did you read it?
UM, Jaybo, Listen up. I am Jewish. The messiah has yet to arrive. One of us is wrong. You best pray it is not you. I do know that if you are the one who is wrong, you have missed out on a lot fun here.
Even Stefan thinks Hutcherson is “over the top” on this one.
My Left Foot @ 33
Ditto
5
“This man does not spout hate or ill will to others who disagree with his philosophies like some folks on this web site.”
Whine, cry, boo-hoo! Few things are as pathetic as a winger bawling over brawling. Wingnuts opened the ball by calling liberals “commies,” “traitors,” “unpatriotic,” suggesting we should be put in “concentration camps” and “executed,” etc. And now a trollfuck is complaining about liberals “spout[ing] hate or ill will …?” FUCK YOU!!!
Hey klake, we don’t HATE you, we feel SORRY for you. It’s gotta be tough to be so ignorant, misled, and downright evil as you are. I know that I would feel pretty bad if I were you. But, worst of all, Republicans are gonna go to HELL for all their lying, stealing, warmongering, torturing, blaspheming, hypocrisy, etc. ad naus., and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.
Hmmm. Let me think about that last statement for a minute.
Hmmmmm.
(tick tick)
(tick tick)
(tick tick)
Mmmmm … let me revise that a bit … I must confess that I DO wish Hell on them. They’ve got it coming. Bastards.
6, 7
Of course Klake the Flake and Wrongheaded are bigots!! That’s why they’re Republicans. We don’t allow bigots, theocrats, or greedy bastards in the Democratic Party. I mean, we’re a big tent and all that, but there’s limits to everything — know what I mean? The GOP exists because the bigots need their own political party because we won’t take them.
28
“You can mock God all you want to, but someday in front of the entire human race and God you will confess that Jesus is God.”
Jaybo, we’re not asking you to behave like a Christian in front of the entire human race and God. If you’d behave like a Christian in front of your immediate neighbors and God, that would be a good start.
BTW, jaybo, it’s impossible to be a Republican and a Christian at the same time.
I thought corporate control of government was bad, thats why I dont get this aspect of the debate. Should businesses be supporting/influencing government at all? If they can support it, then churches should be able to freely oppose it, or other businesses.
As to the bill itself, The anti discrimination bill seems harmless enough on its face, and unless someone shows me a provision in it that goes too far, I would support equal opportunity for anyone.
But how does this square on the surface with Washington being an “At Will” state where employers may terminate at will with no reason given?
Will this trump the laws in that respect?
My only other reservation is that laws like that offer too much ability for perception of dicrimination to used without a sufficient level of proof. I hope that if passed this bill offers a good balance of worker protection and reasonable stadards of proff.
I think all the homophobic wingnuts ought to boycott all companies that promote non-discriminiation laws for gays. I am not so sure that Apple is going to be the answer for them, though, it strikes me as a company with progressive ideals.
Instead, they should reconsititue the RadioShack (Tandy) TRS-80 line of computing for all of their computing needs (I mean, RadioShack is from Fort Worth, Texas, so they can’t go wrong, can they?).
And while they are at it, they should avoid all the liberal colleges and universities and stick with going to Baptist Colleges.
That’ll teach us!
Isn’t Round Rock (Dell) in Texas too?
drool @ 21
“i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?”
Ohhh…man. You really ought to ask this one of the Reverend Hutcherson. He is a former pro-football player.
The way I understand it, Ken Hutcherson was bi-sexual in his past.
Isn’t this a bit hypocritical?
sven
Yeah, Churches pay taxes too!… oops.
Sven @ 40, I see where you are coming from (surpise). You do not want a bad employee (one caught stealing, for instance) to sue based on percieved race, religion, gender, etc. discrimination.
The Manager of Western State tried that fertalizer. The Judge laughed him out of the Court Room:
Claim of witch hunt dismissed ; A federal judge rules that Barrette Green, who was once the manager of Western State Hospital, was fired fairly. He dismisses Green’s lawsuit
STACEY MULICK. The News Tribune. Tacoma, Wash.: Jan 27, 2005. pg. B.01
After the 2003 lawsuit, the state investigated at least a dozen women’s claims of harassment, violence and retaliation by [Green], who’d worked at Western State for 15 years until he was fired in November 2003. Green’s lawsuit claimed DSHS investigated his personal life to justify firing him. He also claimed that because he was black, he was treated more harshly than white male employees who …
Fuck all these christians. We need to return to the day when they were properly persecuted. I spit on them!
Donna,
Should businesses be supporting/influencing government at all? If they can support it, then churches should be able to freely oppose it
Yeah, Churches pay taxes too!… oops.
Irrelevent. A church is a congregation of individuals who pay taxes. If they collectively seek to make their opinions known they are entitled to have their petitions heard as indidiuals or as a collection of like minded individuals.
Many non profit exempt groups other then churches activly petition the government for their causes.
The issue is not of taxation, it’s of influence.
By your standard, a homeless person with no income and who pays no taxes is not entitled to representation.
OOG,
Sven @ 40, I see where you are coming from (surpise). You do not want a bad employee (one caught stealing, for instance) to sue based on percieved race, religion, gender, etc. discrimination.
Exactly, but at the same time, I want protections in place to prevent companies from discriminating based on non work related factors.. The balance between the two is tricky.
Jaybo, yeah, I read it. I didn’t understand it. I think it was all the bracketed and parenthetical insertions. Is that the Amplification? Does the Amplified Bible go up to eleven?
You have to understand it’s not God we’re mocking. You’ve got to concede, however that the behavior and actions of a lot of His most publicly fervent believers are staggeringly hypocritical.
Since drool’s questions were enumerated so clearly (albeit cribbed from another source), it seems only fitting that you could answer them by reference to their number. It’s my understanding that God’s word is literally true, and given the exchange rate, I’d really like a Canadian slave.
I don’t know what Hutch is thinking. Are all his retarded followers going to switch to Apple? Apple is more fag friendly than Microsoft.
If I run a retail business, and one of my male clerks decides to wear a dress to work, along with heels and a wig, will this bill require that I allow it? Am I no longer able to set a dress code?
Don’t get me wrong – Hutch is way off base. But I have to wonder why the bill’s language goes beyond discrimination to these types of issues. If it didn’t over-reach in this manner, it might be a bigger no-brainer than it already is.
By the way, I like this Canadian slave idea. I could use a couple.
@ 52
That’s a little bigoted, don’t you think? Being gay isn’t about boys in dresses. Dress codes are dress codes. This is different. Hutch wants to fire people for being gay, not wearing dresses.
53,
Actually Hutch wants to be able to not Hire them at all.
Just for the record.
I was addressing what the bill says, not what Hutch says. The bill says that businesses cannot discriminate against a trans-gender in the process.
I’m not bigoted, I’m just asking for clarification. Personally, I don’t care one way or the other. I’m just curious how the law will be applied.
Sven at 40
Washington would remain, generally speaking, an “at will” state if the legislature prohibits discrimination in employment based on sexual orientation. Sexual orientation would simply be added to the list of exceptions to the at will rule that are set out in RCW 49.60.010, which exceptions include race, religion, gender, age, etc. A plaintiff would bear the burden of proving that his or her sexual orientation was a proximate cause of any adverse consequences suffered in the workplace. For instance, simply proving that one is gay and got fired is insufficient to prove a claim; a nexus between the two must be established by a preponderance of the evidence.
Jaybo,
Did you ever read the New Testament, that part about not judging lest you be judged? How about Christ saying that the most important of the Commandments is to love your neighbor? That admonition trumps whatever other behavioral guidelines the Bible might provide us. Love doesn’t much seem to guide most of the religious right’s agenda.
Proud,
Thanks!
Comment by Belltowner— 1/17/06 @ 1:18 pm
“That’s a little bigoted, don’t you think? Being gay isn’t about boys in dresses. Dress codes are dress codes. This is different. Hutch wants to fire people for being gay, not wearing dresses.”
HB 1515 is more than just about “being gay”.
http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/bill.....15.HBA.htm
“The Law Against Discrimination is amended to prohibit discrimination based on a persons sexual orientation. “Sexual orientation” is defined as heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, and gender expression or identity.”
I think a man wearing a dress would fit under “gender expression”.
Poster Child,
According to the verses I posted in #25, the Bible clearly states that the purpose of The Laws of Moses were to convict the entire human race and find us all guilty in God’s eyes. If you believe that you can receive redemption through the law, then you must follow it without exception in its entirety.
Jesus himself said; “Do not think that I have come to do away with or undo the Law or the Prophets; I have come not to do away with or undo but to complete and fulfill them.” (Matthew 5:17)
Jesus has never given approval to the homosexual lifestyle as he said above, he did not come to “do away with the law”.
In other excerpts from the Gospels (something that proponents of homosexuality love to reference), You find a story of the Jewish Religious Leader’s attempt to condemn an adulterer by using The Law of Moses to convict her.
(John 8:3-11)
(3) When the scribes and Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery. They made her stand in the middle of the court and put the case before Him.
(4) Teacher, they said, This woman has been caught in the very act of adultery.
(5) Now Moses in the Law commanded us that such [women–offenders] shall be stoned to death. But what do You say [to do with her–what is Your sentence]?
(6) This they said to try (test) Him, hoping they might find a charge on which to accuse Him. But Jesus stooped down and wrote on the ground with His finger.
(7)However, when they persisted with their question, He raised Himself up and said, Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.
(8)Then He bent down and went on writing on the ground with His finger.
(9) They listened to Him, and then they began going out, conscience-stricken, one by one, from the oldest down to the last one of them, till Jesus was left alone, with the woman standing there before Him in the center of the court.
(10) When Jesus raised Himself up, He said to her, Woman, where are your accusers? Has no man condemned you?
(11) She answered, No one, Lord! And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more.
Notice what Jesus didn’t say. He didn’t tell the woman to “I do not condemn you either, go back and continue to live as an adulterer”.
He in fact said, “go and sin no more”.
Jesus does not condemn homosexuals that turn to him for forgiveness (the adulteress acknowledged Jesus as “Lord”). But if they truly repent and accept him as their savior, he tells them to, “go and sin no more”.
Fascinating biblical discourse Mr. Jaybo. Appropriate for a Sunday school class or Torah study(well maybe not a Torah study. The Jesus thing).
However, with apologies to Rev Hutcherson, the Constitution is the only law that counts in the United States, Dr. James Dobson and Focus on the Family not withstanding:
Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
U.S. Constitution: Article VI
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Janet s @55
I formally retract my remark regarding bigotry.
Others:
People who are switching from male to female, I assume, get to wear dresses as well. If you want to pick on those folks, go for it, but it ain’t polite.
Jaybo:
You cannot have it both ways. Or are you saying that the only way to enter heaven is to truly repent for all the shell fish I’ve eaten? You will forgive me from pointing out that your theology seems to be very flexible so that it incorporates the things you like, but not the things you are against. Strange how that works out. Well, at least we know there is no debate about it being harder for a rich man to enter the kindom of heaven than a camel to fit through the eye of a needle.
I am currious, why does this thread here not carry the following warning as the minnow’s site does:
COMMENTERS: DISAGREE WITH ME ALL YOU WANT, BUT KEEP YOUR TONE EXCEEDINGLY CIVIL. ANY ABUSIVE COMMENTS – ESPECIALLY TOWARD GAYS AND LESBIANS – WILL BE DELETED.
Not that there would ever be abusive comments made by people at (u)sp.
Comment by Belltowner— 1/17/06 @ 2:31 pm
“I formally retract my remark regarding bigotry.”
Congrats, it takes a big person to admit they were wrong.
“People who are switching from male to female, I assume, get to wear dresses as well. If you want to pick on those folks, go for it, but it ain’t polite.”
I’d have less of an issue with this bill if they’d strip out the “gender expression and identity” portion of the definition of sexual orientation. This is a very small population that is clearly making a choice, and I don’t feel they deserve the same legal standing those protected for racial and ethnic reasons.
Picking on pre-op transgenders certainly isn’t polite, but HB 1515 also isn’t about politeness, but preventing discrimination.
JDB,
My points are drawn directly from the Bible.
1. We are all sinners and unworthy of redemption.
2. Christ came for the express purpose of being a sacrificial substitute for our sins.
3. Salvation is a gift from God through his Son Jesus, the Lamb of God foretold by way of metaphor in the Passover Celebration.
4. By repenting of your sin and acknowledging Jesus as God you become an inheritor of eternal life through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
Who then is responsible for the crucifying of Christ?
We all are responsible.
Belltowner – I knew what you intended in your heart. Isn’t this a bible-study class?
I’ve never thought it was fair that women can wear pants, but guys aren’t allowed to wear dresses.
65
They can wear Kilts. I used to see a guy where I work do it all the time…..
Of course Klake the Flake and Wrongheaded are bigots!! That’s why they’re Republicans. We don’t allow bigots, theocrats, or greedy bastards in the Democratic Party. I mean, we’re a big tent and all that, but there’s limits to everything – know what I mean? The GOP exists because the bigots need their own political party because we won’t take them.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 1/17/06 @ 10:47 am
Roger you really like calling people names when they disagree with you on a subject matter. The emotions that you express give me the impression that you have a family member or friend who is gay. Calling someone a bigot or wrong head does not make your statement more correct than anyone else’s. Few days ago, I post on this same subject and it was removed by Goldy for some strange reason. The LAW you all talk about may not get the results you want, it could open Pandora’s Box. There are two sides to this story and one side is not being told by anyone. After this becomes a law you it be will handled like people of color have been, and they will list their sexual preference on their job application. This could become a real problem for closet gays today that cannot deal with their personal sexual identification. Now you put them where they may not want to be which could cause a tragedy for them and their family. To disregard this problem would make you instinctive to their plight. It is a shame to turn their life style into a political game to advance someone else goals.
Trans gender folk are already highly protected.
The journey is called gender dysphoria – as a medical condition
As a group of folks, they already have, therefore extensive protections.
As a group that is not well understood, another reality.
The real issue – is the woman who works at the auto parts store in Othello who finally decides to come out to co-workers after years of hesitation. She get fired. No recourse. THAT is the problem.
Many locations have protections, Spokane, Seattle, Tacoma – lenghy list but piece meal This bill set a state stadard that applies in Pe El and Eltopia and Cowlick and Where-ever.
Long overdue.
To jaybo – I have always thought Jesus was a fag. And that is not a new thought from the American gay community. Hate to tell you, he truly loved some of those disciples. The G. Garden fag nest.
Left Turn @47
I understand your sentiments – Please know that there are PLENTY of us liberal Christians who are not at all in agreement with Hutch and his ilk…and we are working hard to re-claim the term ‘Christian’ and perhaps restore integrity to it…
Dogs,
There are plenty of conservatives that do not support his activities.
Hutch represents a specific fringe belief.
FWIW
But Jaybo – you treat “the Bible” as if it’s a coherent and cohesive text handed down directly from God, irrefutable on its face and obviating any and all other sources of moral interpretation.
Reasonable and moral people disagree on that point, and the revisionist history of the Rightist theocracy movement notwithstanding, it is clear: that disagreement was at the heart of the framers’ insistance on separation of church and state. No establishment. You can believe what you believe, but don’t pass laws based religious beliefs.
Mama Bob – I agree, that it is very narrow minded for the woman to be fired. What I have to wonder, though, is why would she want to work with a group of people so intolerant? Isn’t it better to know openly that you are working with hostile, small minded people, than to have them quietly forced to be around you?
Govt should never discriminate. Private business should be able to hire whoever they want, for whatever reasaon. If they are foolish enough to not hire based on race, creed, color, orienation, etc, then they deserve what they get. And they deserve the decrease in business from those customers of the same race, creed, color, etc, that aren’t “good enough” to work for them. It would all be out in the open, for everyone to see.
Of course Klake the Flake and Wrongheaded are bigots!! That’s why they’re Republicans. We don’t allow bigots, theocrats, or greedy bastards in the Democratic Party. I mean, we’re a big tent and all that, but there’s limits to everything – know what I mean? The GOP exists because the bigots need their own political party because we won’t take them.
Comment by Roger Rabbit— 1/17/06 @ 10:47 am
Roger you really like calling people names when they disagree with you on a subject matter. The emotions that you express give me the impression that you have a family member or friend who is gay. Calling someone a bigot or wrong head does not make your statement more correct than anyone else’s. Few days ago, I post on this same subject and it was removed by G*ldy for some strange reason. The LAW you all talk about may not get the results you want, it could open Pandora’s Box. There are two sides to this story and one side is not being told by anyone. After this becomes a law you it be will handled like people of color have been, and they will list their sexual preference on their job application. This could become a real problem for closet gays today that cannot deal with their personal sexual identification. Now you put them where they may not want to be which could cause a tragedy for them and their family. To disregard this problem would make you instinctive to their plight.
It is a shame to turn their life style into a political game to advance someone else goals.
Roger you really like calling people names when they disagree with you on a subject matter. The emotions that you express give me the impression that you have a family member or friend who is gay. Calling someone a bigot or wrong head does not make your statement more correct than anyone else’s. Few days ago, I post on this same subject and it was removed by G*ldy for some strange reason. The LAW you all talk about may not get the results you want, it could open Pandora’s Box. There are two sides to this story and one side is not being told by anyone. After this becomes a law you it be will handled like people of color have been, and they will list their sexual preference on their job application. This could become a real problem for closet gays today that cannot deal with their personal sexual identification. Now you put them where they may not want to be which could cause a tragedy for them and their family. To disregard this problem would make you instinctive to their plight.
It is a shame to turn their life style into a political game to advance someone else goals.
Janet S @71
If they are foolish enough to not hire based on race, creed, color, orienation, etc, then they deserve what they get. And they deserve the decrease in business from those customers of the same race, creed, color, etc, that aren’t “good enough” to work for them. It would all be out in the open, for everyone to see.
I am only partially sympathetic to this tack, and only because business should decide who they cater to, not the general public (See: Smoking Ban). Unfortunately, allowing this method of racism excludes people on the very basis you state. Race should be a factor only in how able you are to interact with ethnicity, not how you “think” folks of ethnicity act. If you can’t interact and you refuse to hire good people who can, your business should fail. While I agree that you should be able to have control over it, basing any decisions on exclusion of race is, well, repugnant, at best.
Poster Child @70,
So, let’s repeal murder laws. Oh, and theft is no problem either. Matter of fact, why do we have ethics laws? Oh, and that bible sure is onerous…
Should businesses be supporting/influencing government at all? If they can support it, then churches should be able to freely oppose it
Yeah, Churches pay taxes too!… oops.
Comment by Donnageddon— 1/17/06 @ 12:16 pm
Over half the donk constituency don’t pay taxes either. Can we get them not to vote? The country would be better off if we could.
Marks @ 74
I think you’re confusing ethics with the bible. Non-christian civilizations have laws against murder, theft, and other normal world-wide human ethics. The Bible (and the 10 commandments) didn’t invent the idea that killing each other is a bad thing, I assure you.
Jaybo @ 13
You should go back to the original biblical texts and re-translate them from the Hebrew (Aramaic). The word “abomination” translates in Hebrew “to become unclean” and does not refer to sexual relations. The context of this passage refers to fertility rituals and social health practices that were commonly practiced by the Canaanites and has nothing to do with homosexuality. But keep quoting, you’re learning more with every passage we refute ;).
cmahnken is my new hero (granted, I’m fickle – but for now… Go Cmahnken!!!)
Sven @69
Glad to hear it, bro.
I hate to use a cliche, but I even have some friends who are conservative christian, and they accept the way I practice my faith. (They even accept my being gay without feeling the need to preach to me or change me)