Arianna Huffington: Responsible Plan “closes the message gap” on Iraq

Arianna Huffington explores one of life’s great mysteries… how John McCain — despite his recent gaffes on Iraq, his insistence that renewed violence is evidence “the surge is working,” and his promise to continue the war for another hundred years — leads both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama in national polls on the question of who is most capable of dealing with the war in Iraq, in the face of overwhelming support for withdrawal.

So what the hell is going on here? What accounts for such a major — and potentially disastrous — disconnect?

In short, Democratic candidates up and down the ticket are facing a message gap when it comes to Iraq. McCain’s rah-rah pitch is very simple and upbeat: “Vote for me and I will win the war.” Democrats have a tougher time trying to answer the question: “What are you going to do about Iraq?”

Part of the problem is the unrealized promises of 2006. Dashed hopes often metastasize into cynicism and mistrust. So this time around, voters want to hear more than “I am going to end the war.” They want to know how. Specifically. Concretely. In detail.

Enter Darcy Burner, a Democratic challenger who is running for Congress in Washington state. Working with national security experts and retired military generals such as Major Gen. Paul Eaton, the officer in charge of training the Iraqi military immediately after the invasion in 2003 and 2004, she developed “A Responsible Plan to End the War,” a comprehensive approach to Iraq based on legislation already introduced in Congress.

And as for the 45 Democratic challengers who have now signed on to the Responsible Plan?

It’s worth noting that this is no collection of “make love, not war” pacifists. Massa is a 24-year Navy veteran. Edwards’ father was in the Air Force. Burner’s brother served in Iraq. And they are all clear that there are real threats facing America, and that our military needs to stop being distracted — and depleted — in Iraq, so it can better address the mounting dangers in Afghanistan and the areas of Pakistan where al-Qaeda has reconstituted itself. So, for national security reasons, they are united in their commitment to bring U.S. troops home from Iraq and begin to repair the damage the war has done to America’s standing in the world.

The idea is to band together a group of challengers running on a shared platform who, if elected, will be able to head into Congress armed with a mandate, supported by allies, and wielding a specific legislative agenda designed to end the war. Call it A Contract to Restore America.

It is also an effective way to let voters know that this is a group of Democrats who won’t cave in every time the GOP accuses them of cutting-and-running or not supporting the troops, or when the media once again float the “precipitous withdrawal” meme.

The national media is starting to show Darcy the love she deserves, so with only two days left in the reporting quarter, shouldn’t you show your love too? By helping Darcy and her fellow challengers beat their fundraising targets you’ll not only help a promising class of challengers reach Congress, you’ll also help convince more challengers to sign on to the Plan and promise to bring a responsible end to this disastrous occupation.
 

Support the original ten endorsers of the Responsible Plan:

Darcy Burner (WA-08)$
Donna Edwards (MD-04)$
Eric Massa (NY-29)$
Tom Perriello (VA-05)$
Chellie Pingree (ME-01)$
Jared Polis (CO-02)$
George Fearing (WA-04)$
Larry Byrnes (FL-14)$
Stephen A. Harrison (NY-13)$
Sam Bennett (PA-15)$



Comments

  1. 1

    spews:

    Well,

    I see a lot about the “plan” here but not a hell of a lot in the local media where it might affect her election. I suppose one could say this is too early for such an effect bit if so what is the purpose of the effort now?

    I remain convinced that DB is opening herself to danger with this approach,

    If Hillary wins

    McCain becomes a realistic candidate, ESP for the women’s vote of he nominates a female veep. Depending on how the war is going, the plan could be seen as fighting last year’s issues while Reichert could take a strong stand on the economy.

    If Obama wins

    McCain will be toast as prexy but will make it possible for Repricans to run as reformers. In that case the plan, esp if endorsed by Obama, could become a big issue for DB. But, McCain will come back claiming that any plan that tlegraphs withdrawl is irresponsible. I do not know how BHO would handle this but there would be real appeal to the kinds of upper middle class that make up a lot of the Eastside.

    Let me give you one example: Jews. Jews are very divided on Iraq. Any PLan that does not addres Israel is going to be politcally volatile. Darcy’s plan avoids the Israel issue but why would McCain/Reichert NOT raise the issue?

    I keep coming back to the same concern for Darcy. Showing she can organize something like this does help with the experiencee/competence issue but it may not help with the judgemnent/matirity issues.

    If I had a voice in the campaign I would urge:

    a. She should address the most obvious gap in the plan .. its lack of discussion of the issues related to diplomacy. Reichert is obviously weak here too since the chance that our allies will side with McCain is null. So, she should have ready ideas about how we entice China, India, Iran to join our side of the issue.

    b. She MUST avoid being seen as a one issue campaigner. The economy is a lot more relevant to Congress and the need for legislation in the aftermath of the Great Fuckup, is already obvious. Furthermore, this is a politically easy path because all she needs to do is side with Bill Gate and Steve Balmer on issues of high tech immigrants and support for research universities.

    Another reason this is a good tactic is that Reichert is science impaired. he shares the blame for the bad effects of the Bush Fuckup on science .. whether we are talking about the stupid idea of a trip to Mars, the radicalization of scientific councils, drastic cuts in NIH funding, over spending on bio defence, etc.

  2. 6

    YLB spews:

    It’s seldom that you see such a dirty lie.

    This coming from an insane bullshit artist.

    McCain called for “more boots on the ground” in both Kosovo and Iraq. That’s the knee jerk reaction to everything from Mr. bomb bomb bomb Iran.

    He’s a warmonger who is determined to do Bush only “better”.

  3. 7

    Mark The Redneck-Patriot spews:

    Are you fucking kidding me? From homeowner’s association board member to global “peacemaker”?

    Are you people really that fucking stoopid and naive?

    I think there’s a few more steps she needs to go through before she makes the leap from landscape maintenance to international relations.

    GMAFB…

  4. 8

    Daddy Love spews:

    Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admits ‘We don’t have troops…ready to go’ to fight the war in Afghanistan

    This morning, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen joined the ranks of military leaders who have admitted that because of the war in Iraq, the U.S. is unable to dedicate the necessary number of troops to fight al-Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    “So, should we be in a position where more troops are removed from Iraq, the possibility of sending additional troops [to Afghanistan] — where we need them, clearly — certainly it’s a possibility. But it’s really going to be based on the availability of troops. We don’t have troops — particularly in Brigade Combat Team size — sitting on the shelf, ready to go.” [3/28/08]

    http://www.npr.org/templates/s.....d=89176792

  5. 9

    Daddy Love spews:

    7

    From homeowner’s association board member to global “peacemaker”?

    Nope. From citizen/resident of WA-08 to Representative Burner. Bye Dave. No pension.

  6. 10

    YLB spews:

    Are you people really that fucking stoopid

    Good question for you bet welsher.

    Burner worked her way through Harvard and became Group Programmer Manager at Microsoft for their .Net line. Got straight A’s in law school too.

    A lot more on the ball than that incompetent, showboating Sheriff.

    Pay your fucking gambling debt loser.

  7. 12

    correctnotright spews:

    @1: Only in your mind SJ are Jews divided on the Iraq war – it has been an unmitigated disaster for US foreign policy. Most US Jews (and I know many in that community through ties with a relative), think the war has been a huge mistake, that Bush is incompetent and that McCain is more of the same.

    Again, there are certainly the “anything that is good for Israel” crowd – but even they see what a pathetic war this has been. In fact, most Jews and most people in the US vote democratic and are fed up with the Bush administration.

  8. 13

    seattlejew spews:

    @12 Correct not right

    Other than being ignorant and misinformed, your personal survey is remarkably uninteresting.

    As a Jew who is sep prouid, in this Season, of the Missippi three (three Jews burned to death because of their shared cause), I only wish my peole were as unified as you suggest.

    The polls I suggest that even the Bush has more support among Jews than he does among the overall population. You might also note the large number of prominent Jews amongst the neocons.

    Moreover, “we” are a lot more complex than you seem to think. While the great majority of us are Zionists, we are also (despite the claims of many anti semitic liberals) also pro-Palestinian. The concept of se4mitic brotherhood and cultural equity lies deep in our Zionist traditions. One good place to see this si the remarkable organization Peace Now! If more goyische liberals would join Peace Now! perhaps we could penetrate then irredentist mionds of Hamas and learn to live together.

    Be good.

  9. 14

    My Goldy Itches spews:

    The Darcy – perhaps it will finally sink in after she loses in November (for the 2nd time) that she really does need to have a resume to be a member of Congress. If she’s qualifed to be a member of the US House, shit…I might as well form my exploratory committee for President.

  10. 15

    seattlejew spews:

    @14 Go ahead…but first tell me what YOU think qualified

    Sam Adams (terrorist)
    Harry Truman (haberdasher)
    GW Bush (playboy, failed investor)
    Arnald Schwatnegegr (muscleman)
    Patty Murry (bare foot mom)
    Ronald Reagan (senile former B movie star)
    John Hancock (smuggler)
    Dino Rossi (real estate salesman)
    Dan Quayle (gneral fuck up)
    Dxie Ray (museum director)
    Dave Reichert (carear civil servant w/o major accomplishments)

  11. 16

    spews:

    “…his promise to continue the war for another hundred years…”

    Interesting that David Horsey’s cartoon in this morning’s P-I exposed that assertion to be an urban legend bordering on a lie.

    The US has had troops in Europe since WW II and probably will for decades and decades to come. They’ve been in Korea since the Korean War, and ditto the European experience.

    As Charles Krauthammer said in his piece in this morning’s Times, “Welcome to the responsibilities of being a world power.”

    Interesting that only the ultra-(and not influential)left are glomming onto the “Reprehensible Plan.”

    White flags generally have no appeal to anyone save surrender fetishists.

    The Piper

  12. 17

    YLB spews:

    surrender fetishists.

    Krauthammer, the Pooper – war monkeys.

    More “jaywalking incidents” for you Poopman:

    Two MND-Baghdad soldiers killed by roadside bomb on Saturday. This was announced yesterday, but too late to make it into Whisker’s post so I’m linking it here.

    Note: It appears that the city-wide curfew has affected reporting. Available information is unusually sketchy. I doubt that this is close to a full accounting of security incidents in Baghdad today.

    Three volleys of mortar attacks on the Green Zone during the day, no information on damage or casualties.

    An Iraqi government official says at least 23 people have been killed in U.S. air strikes targeting Shiite areas of Baghdad. Unfortunately, at this time, I can find only this very limited statement, no further details.

    Two bodies found dumped on Saturday.

    Mosul

    Colonel Ziad Qassem Sultan, commander of police 1st regiment and another officer killed in an attempt to arrest members of the Islamic State in Iraq. This is a group the U.S. conventionally labels as “al Qaeda.” Yes, this other conflict is still going on.

    Kirkuk

    Botched bomb attack on a police commander kills three civilians.

    Muqdadiya

    Iraqi forces say they killed an “al Qaeda” gunman and wounded four.

    Diyala Province, near Baquba

    Council chief Ibrahim Hassan al-Bajlan survives a bomb attack on his motorcade, two bodyguards killed. Reuters puts this “near Saadiya,” which is actually about 50 miles from Baquba.

    Dhuluiya

    Gunmen attack a police patrol, kill five police officers, injure two civilians.

    Hilla

    Police say they arrested 101 “militants” in various raids.

    Hawija

    Three awakening council members injured in a bomb attack on their patrol.

    Najaf

    Roadside bomb kills one Iraqi army officer, injures two soldiers, on Saturday.

    Siniya (near Beiji)

    Suicide car bomber kills 5 “Awakening Council” members, 8 others injured.

    http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

    The surge is working! Reconciliation in 100 hundred years!

  13. 19

    Hannah spews:

    @4 – finally some truth, I myself never believed McCain meant 100 years of fighting, but meant just like around the world, we have military presense EVERYWHERE. I think if we pull out of Iraq the way some politicians want, we should also pull out of all the other areas.

    @8 – great article, showing we need troops in Afghanistan, but also the fact of Mullen’s belief of not clsoing down shop quickly as it will lead to chaos. Being the Chairman, everyone needs to really value his perspective.

  14. 21

    seattlejew spews:

    Piper

    I LIKE John McCain and want to see a positive resolution of Bush’s Biggest Blunder. I also understand that a awful lot of the treacle we here now is the pandering pap of a campaign. All three residual candidates have pandered. Now e need to figure out what they would do.

    BUT ….

    there are some real issues that either McCain or Obama are going to have to deal with.

    1. As a matter of national security, we can not afford to sustain the current presence in Iraq. We are being bankrupt.

    2. The only rational endgame that anyone has described is a complete US withdrawal under military retreat strategy. This is Obama’s proposal. Hillary has made the absurd assertion that she will order her generals to withdraw .. perhaps she is saying the same thing as Obama in Clinton Code.

    3. Any solution must leave the area no worse than it is now ..i.e. it must address the security of the Indian Ocean, the Arab Oil states, and Israel. This is not compatible with the Hillary plan but issue 1 means the current policy also is not sustainable.

    If McCain wants credibility as more than a bandaid on the burning sore left open by Bush, he needs to address both the bankruptcy issue and the security issues. The closest he has come to doing this is a lot like Burner’s plan .. somehow we will reverse Bush’s foreign policy and recruit allies to help us out. Given the world opinion of the US post Bush, I have trouble believing this will happen.

    *****************

    Bottom line, compare the four plans:

    Hillary has made promises she can not keep. We can not simply get out without creating conditions similar to the Balkans of 1917. Her plan is a recipe for disaster and I assume she would renege.

    Burner’s plan really does not deal with how to end the thing at all .. rather it discusses the rational legislative changes needed to facilitate ANY of the other three plans.

    McCain really has not offered a plan since he has not defined our goals there. Perhaps he means to say that any situation that lets us keep a presence in something akin to an Iraqi state would be acceptable?

    Obama’s more limited pandering has left him the most realistic room to wiggle without getting caught on the hook of failed promises. This was well sated by his foreign Policy advisor, Dr. Power.

    *******************************

    The SJ plan ….

    1. We lock down current forces, announcing that we are guaranteeing Kurdish independence of Turkey and Iran and that we will bomb the hell out of any sizable foreign force that comes into Iraq.

    We continue logistic support to the current government if and only if it agrees to power sharing with Kurds and Shia.

    2. We quietly apologize to Germany, France, Russia, India, Turkey, and China and assure them our only goal is to have a strife free commerce in oil. This will require ceding some power others in the Indian Ocean.

    Is the US ready for “Who gave the Indian Ocean to China?

    3. If 2 is successful, the President (Obama?) offers to meet with the Iranian leader to discuss a regional peace conference. Our goals would be UN control with US, European, Indian, and Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean; securing the borders of Iraq, regional nuclear disarmament to include Israel as well as Egypt and Iran.

    4. If 2 is not successful, then only option I see is for something like the McCain plan. Paying for it is hard to imagine, perhaps we should get real tough and charge tolls in the Indian Ocean???

  15. 22

    spews:

    Itchy Brain @ 14 sez…

    “If she’s qualifed [sic] to be a member of the US House, shit…I might as well form my exploratory committee for President.”

    Let’s see…Darcy is at least twenty five years of age, she has been a citizen of the United States for at least 7 years, and she is very likely to still be a resident of Washington state in November. Hence she is fully qualified to be a member of the house.

    But what will make her a better Representative than Sheriff Hairspray is that (1) she is a talented and natural leader, (2) she is energetic and hard-working, (3) she is intelligent. Not to mention she is “articulate, impressive and infectiously energetic”.

    It is very hard to argue that Hairspray has any of those attributes.

    You run for President? Yeah…just what this country needs…another President whose IQ is only half his age.

  16. 23

    seattlejew spews:

    dARRYL

    wadr

    There is every reason to believe that by this summer other issues will eb far bigger than Iraq. None of these can eb solved in isolation, BUT I worry that Darcy’s focus on the “plan” leaves her open to criticism or, worse, being identified with wild haired bearded radicals from Wisconsin.

    I think she is making a political move by creating a coalition of the willing but unelected. Thaty may be excellent party politics but I am not sop sure it is good electoral politics if it makes her seem too left for the right side of the Lake.

  17. 25

    spews:

    SeattleJew @

    Given that you are a scientist, I find your response to CNR surprising and disappointing and, objectively, wrong!

    “I only wish my peole were as unified as you suggest.”

    Well…the polls are pretty convincing in showing that 2/3 of Jewish Americans oppose the Iraq war, disapprove of Bush, etc.

    “The polls I suggest that even the Bush has more support among Jews than he does among the overall population.”

    Maybe, but that is irrelevant…what he stated was:

    Most US Jews … think the war has been a huge mistake, that Bush is incompetent and that McCain is more of the same.

    So…some 70% to 80% of randomly selected Americans think the war has been a huge mistake these days. CNR’s statement is still true even if only 60% to 70% of Jewish Americans feel the same.

    “You might also note the large number of prominent Jews amongst the neocons.”

    Talk about anecdotal…holy un-scientific guacamole, Batman!
    (Not to mention, that anecdotally, even some of those Neocons feel that war has been an unmitigated disaster.)

    So…let’s talk evidence. As you know, the American Jewish Committee conducts an annual opinion poll that includes questions on international affairs and politics.

    During the last Presidential election, the war in Iraq was a major reason why many Jewish Americans supported Kerry:

    Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) is gaining support among Jewish voters as growing numbers disapprove of President Bush’s handling of the war in Iraq, according to a poll commissioned by the American Jewish Committee.

    If the election were held today, 69 percent of Jewish voters would support Kerry, 24 percent would back Bush and 3 percent would give their votes to Ralph Nader, the survey found. That’s an increase of 10 percentage points for Kerry since December, when the previous AJC poll showed him with 59 percent of the Jewish vote.

    A year later, from the American Jewish Committee’s annual Survey in Late 2005:

    Most American Jews disapprove of the war in Iraq and the way the United States is handling the campaign against terrorism, according to a new study.

    The American Jewish Committee’s annual Survey of American Jewish Opinion, released Dec. 21, [2005,] found that 70 percent of U.S. Jews disapprove of the Iraq war, with 28 percent backing it. Sixty percent of respondents said they did not support America’s handling of the war on terror, while 36 percent approve.

    Most recently, here are specific questions and response percentages from the same survey conducted in November 2007:

    In politics, as of today, do you consider yourself a Republican, a Democrat, or an Independent?

    Republican 15%
    Democrat 58%
    Independent 26%
    Not sure 2%

    Regardless of how you usually vote, do you think the Republican party or the Democratic party is more likely to make the right decision about the war in Iraq?

    Republican 21%
    Democratic 61%
    Both (vol.) 0%
    Neither (vol.) 13%
    Not sure 6%

    Regardless of how you usually vote, do you think the Republican party or the Democratic party is more likely to ensure a strong economy?

    Republican 26%
    Democratic 62%
    Both (vol.) 1%
    Neither (vol.) 6%
    Not sure 6%

    Regardless of how you usually vote, do you think the Republican party or the Democratic party is more likely to make the right decision when it comes to dealing with terrorism?

    Republican 30%
    Democratic 53%
    Both (vol.) 2%
    Neither (vol.) 8%
    Not sure 7%

    Do you approve or disapprove of the way the United States government is handling the campaign against terrorism?

    Approve 31%
    Disapprove 59%
    Not Sure 10%

    Looking back, do you think the United States did the right thing in taking military action against Iraq, or should the U.S. have stayed out?

    Right thing 27%
    Stayed out 67%
    Not Sure 6%

    How would you say things are going for the United States in its efforts to bring stability and order to Iraq? Would you say things are going very well, somewhat well, somewhat badly, or very badly?

    Very well 3%
    Somewhat well 20%
    Somewhat badly 33%
    Very badly 43%
    Not sure 2%

  18. 26

    ArtFart spews:

    15 Stephen, make that:

    Dixy Lee Ray, marine biologist, UW professor, former director of the Pacific Science Center (probably responsible for its very existence), former director of the US Dept. of Energy…easily one of the smartest people to serve as governor of this or any other state. That, in and of itself, combined with, shall we say, a certain outspokenness, may have been more of a handicap than an asset.

  19. 27

    ArtFart spews:

    “The economy is a lot more relevant to Congress and the need for legislation in the aftermath of the Great Fuckup, is already obvious.”

    Presumably, this would be something other than the Paulson/Bush proposal to apply more of the medicine that’s already made us sick.

  20. 28

    spews:

    SeattleJew @ 23

    “There is every reason to believe that by this summer other issues will eb far bigger than Iraq.”

    With any luck there will be many real issues in addition to Iraq being raised. But, so long as Shrub continues to march our young men and women into a war zone in Iraq and continues to pump 1/3 of a BILLION DOLLARS EACH DAY into a war, the issue is not going to go away.

    ‘…BUT I worry that Darcy’s focus on the “plan” leaves her open to criticism or…’

    What is your reasoning, exactly, that makes you believe that the addition of other issues “open[s Darcy] up to criticism?”

    “…worse, being identified with wild haired bearded radicals from Wisconsin.”

    You mean the guys who bombed Sterling Hall, or what?

    “I think she is making a political move by creating a coalition of the willing but unelected.”

    Maybe so, but the history of The Responsible Plan was not about forming a coalition of challengers. It started because Darcy really wanted answers to how the U.S. can extract itself from a difficult quagmire. I believe the decision to add other challengers was made much later in the process.

    “Thaty may be excellent party politics but I am not sop sure it is good electoral politics if it makes her seem too left for the right side of the Lake.”

    Why would the plan make her “seem too far left?” What did you see in the plan that seemed radical?

  21. 29

    Hannah spews:

    @27 – Paulson/Bush? The fed reserve was voted in and Paulson was voted in UNANIMOUSLY by all of the senate.
    Since you say they are applying medicine that has already made us sick, what do you think of Obama and Hillary’s medicine to keep adding to the fed reserve’s bailout?

  22. 31

    spews:

    Darry

    I will not vie with you on polling, but the fact is that a very largee part of the neocons come from the Jewish community. I am sure you know that. You also know that whenh one is talking about a small community of say a couple of dozen, sampling is not done to get low SE.

    As for the other stats, I could cite other stats that I read in the Jewish media and if you really want to do a study I will provide you with sources. As its is, there are plenty of data around and in the public, including the new role of fundie Christians as “zionists” and the fact that Jo Lieberman DOES represent the feelings of many in the Orthodox community.

    Does this mean I think we are deserting the DODP,? No. But liberalism has a tendency to bleed away as we become more white. I suspect the ranking folks at Microsoft have a lot in common that they would not share with the members of the African-American Jewsish coalition, Rabbi Lapin’s Synaogue, the membership of Temple de Hirsch, etc..

  23. 32

    spews:

    Darryl at 28

    With any luck there will be many real issues in addition to Iraq being raised. But, so long as Shrub continues to march our young men and women into a war zone in Iraq and continues to pump 1/3 of a BILLION DOLLARS EACH DAY into a war, the issue is not going to go away.

    And?? I was NOT talking about a debate you and I might have, I was talking about the issues as they will reach the voters on the right side of the Lake.

    I said: “‘…BUT I worry that Darcy’s focus on the “plan” leaves her open to criticism or…” Your ander seemsd to be illogical? What …makes you believe that the addition of other issues “open[s Darcy] up to criticism?”

    My point is that she should be more than JUST a peace candidate. In fact, the “plan: has a lot of good things in it that go beyond peace. Her stands on civil; rights and restructuring foreign policy have a lto of value as long as they do not get subsumed simplisticaly in Iraq.

    I said: “…worse, being identified with wild haired bearded radicals from Wisconsin.”“You mean the guys who bombed Sterling Hall, or what? of course

    Maybe …the decision to add other challengers was made much later in the process. but it remains a political move. and, as I said, it “would the plan make her “seem too far left?” What did you see in the plan that seemed radical?

    Leaving aside the equation of left~~radical, the most imprtant issues affecting national security are not addressd in the plan. This leaves Darcy opne to nomination by the Right as a one issue librul and gives many openings for Reichert to seize ground as the responsible adult. I won’t list the issues that she could ID with, BUT he has done a good job if picturing himself as an environmentalist and a fiscal conservative.

    LOOK … I am NOT interested in dissing her. I like what I have see4n and have given her money. What I do not want is t see her lose the race by becoming a one issue candidate.

    Is this really worth a debate? We both want her to win, or do you really think the war issue ios important enough to justify7 a one issue campaign?

  24. 33

    Politically Incorrect spews:

    Seattlejew,

    You know what, partner, I’m sick and tired of hearing about Israel and Palestine. I really could care less about the Israelis and the Palestinians fighting over some piece of dirt in the Middle East.

    I wish America would un-involve itself in these ridiculous religous wars. We could start by un-involving ourselves with the Sunnis and Shia in Iraq and then declare neutrality in the war between the Arabs and the Israelis.

    I’ve had it with their shit. I’ve been heraing about it my whole life, and I don’t want to hear about it any more. If the Israelis wiped out all Arabs tomorrow or the Arabs wiped out all Israelis tomorrow, I could care less.

  25. 35

    spews:

    SeattleJEw,

    “I will not vie with you on polling, but the fact is that a very largee part of the neocons come from the Jewish community. I am sure you know that.”

    I’ve heard that. But I’ve never seen any real figures to support the assertion. But either way, that does not contradict that among American Jews only 31% approve of Bush’s handling of terrorism, 67% think the U.S. should have stayed out of Iraq, and 76% think the efforts to bring order to Iraq are not going well.

    “You also know that whenh one is talking about a small community of say a couple of dozen, sampling is not done to get low SE.”

    I’m not sure what you are getting at here.

    “As for the other stats, I could cite other stats that I read in the Jewish media and if you really want to do a study I will provide you with sources.”

    It was my understanding that the American Jewish Committee’s annual Survey is reputable and representative, which is why I cited it.

    “As its is, there are plenty of data around and in the public, including the new role of fundie Christians as “zionists” and the fact that Jo Lieberman DOES represent the feelings of many in the Orthodox community.”

    Not sure what the fundie Xtian comment is about. Sen. Liebermann (LFC–CT) may well represent the typical feelings of many in the Orthodox community. But only 8% of American Jews identify themselves as Orthodox.

    “Does this mean I think we are deserting the DODP,? No. But liberalism has a tendency to bleed away as we become more white. I suspect the ranking folks at Microsoft have a lot in common that they would not share with the members of the African-American Jewsish coalition, Rabbi Lapin’s Synaogue, the membership of Temple de Hirsch, etc..

    Not sure what you are getting at here.

  26. 36

    spews:

    SeattleJew,

    “I was NOT talking about a debate you and I might have, I was talking about the issues as they will reach the voters on the right side of the Lake.”

    But, but, but…I AM a voter on the right side of the Lake (albeit 100 meters north of Darcy’s district). My point is, the Iraq fiasco will almost certainly be an important issue in Darcy’s race. Remember, it is a presidential election year and there are sharp difference ‘twixt the D candidates and McCain in handling of the Iraq mess. The issue won’t go away.

    In 2006, the 8th CD was split 33% D and 33% R (34% Independent) (data from an RT Strategies poll). But, overall, there was 59% disapproval of Bush. It seems reasonable to think that the Iraq fiasco is driving that high disapproval.

    In 2006, Darcy did not have a good answer for extracting us from Iraq so, since then, she has assembled some experts, rolled up her sleeves, and did some homework. This gives here some answers and, more importantly, guiding principles on a range of related topics (FISA, executive power, and oil dependence).

    In 2006, Reichert was able frame Burner as inexperienced. Of course, this was utter bullshit. Burner has an impressive track record in every endeavor she has undertaken. One doesn’t become a group manager for one of Microsoft’s most important software initiatives (.NET) without impressive leadership, organizational, and critical thinking skills.

    By putting together this plan, she has offered voters a glimpse of the type of Congressperson she would be—one who is energetic and takes the lead in solving problems. The Plan does not make her a one-trick pony because the skills needed to create the plan transfer to other important issues.

    Reichert has, largely, been a one-trick-pony—he is the Sheriff who has fearlessly confronted the business end of a gun. Reichert has a very thin track record. His one qualification hasn’t translated into much over his 3.3 years in Congress. It is hard to imagine his sheriff act is going to sell, yet again, in the absence of power and serious accomplishments.

  27. 37

    seattlejew spews:

    but the fact is that a very largee part of the neocons come from the Jewish community. I am sure you know that.”

    I’ve heard that. But I’ve never seen any real figures to support the assertion.

    Darryl .. this is not an issue of statistics, juts try listing the major authors of neocon literature .. Wolfson, Krystal, Pollack, Libby, Podhoretz …

    As a friend and as a Jew, I find this painful to discuss. In part, as you know, I agree with the neocons. Invading Iraq was justified, screwing up the invasion was not. If I justify the first, then “my” people need to take the blame for the latter too.

    Beyond the obvious there is the difficlut moral dilemna facing Israel. Israels true allies are few beyond the US and the self interest of the world lies in our extermination as a nation (for the fourth time?).

    As a result Israel has had a number of dubious alliances … esp. with the Apartheid regime of South Africa. Today’s realtions with China are another example … do you know that there are 3000 of us held in China w/o freedom of slef identificatiob? China blames Israel, saying the she does not wnat these popel because they look Chinese. What Crap! Israel does nto want to offend the bug dragin and is behaving in a morally dubious fashion. In a simialr manner there are two sides of Israel in re the Turkish/Armenian and Turkish/Kurd debates.

    Unfortunately we have come to accept the radical right as supporters now. I wish I could call this “unholy” but it is worse tha that. It turns my stomach to see the suypport Israel gets from the radical right BUT the confluence of Israel’s need for friends with the neocon ideas about the Missle East has led to a disaster.

    But either way, that does not contradict that among American Jews only 31% approve of Bush’s handling of terrorism, 67% think the U.S. should have stayed out of Iraq, and 76% think the efforts to bring order to Iraq are not going well.

    I suspect these numbers are coprrect .. BUT that means Jews look like the rest fo the population. BIG change form, 30 years ago.

    “As for the other stats, I could cite other stats that I read in the Jewish media and if you really want to do a study I will provide you with sources.”

    It was my understanding that the American Jewish Committee’s annual Survey is reputable and representative, which is why I cited it.

    I wish I knew. The AJC. like every other Jewish organization, has its agendas. A;; I can say ios that the relaity today is that Jews are no9 longer “safely” presumed to be libs or dems. I also know that many leading groups are willing to lput up with Baptist Bigoptry in returmn for military support for Israel. Finally, yes Vurginia, we too have some folk wjo hate Blacks.

    Not sure what the fundie Xtian comment is about. Sen. Liebermann (LFC–CT) may well represent the typical feelings of many in the Orthodox community. But only 8% of American Jews identify themselves as Orthodox.

    You misunderstand what “identity” means in Judaism. First, for many .. maybe most .. the OJ define Jewish tradition. Often it is OJ rabbis who are considered most learned andm in Judaisn, scholarship is far more imnportnat than almnost anything else. So OJ opinions often rule. For example, though ti upsets many of us, all decsiins about Jewish identity for becomeing Israeli aere made, even in the US, by OJ.

    Second … unlike Christianity .. the differences between the brands of Judaism are differences in practice NOT belief. For example, though I am a devout atheist and a member of a reform shul, I feel most at home in an Orthodox shul. Moreover, the other flavors of Judaism have mnved a klong ways back to OJ. Bottom line, the OJ community is a lot more importnat than your 8% number suggests.

    “Does this mean I think we are deserting the GODP,? No. But liberalism has a tendency to bleed away as we become more white. I suspect the ranking folks at Microsoft have a lot in common that they would not share with the members of the African-American Jewsish coalition, Rabbi Lapin’s Synaogue, the membership of Temple de Hirsch, etc..

    You did not understand this

    Darryl, as you know I have never classified myself as white .. nor have my parents or children. But as Jews became assimilated the distinction from others in the great middle class became weak. How different is a jewish identity from a Unitarian identity?

    As an “outed” Jew I do not like this trend. I feel peoplehood .. whether that is Jewish, Korean, Lummi, or Italian is as important to the overal human society as species are to our ecology. If there is a kibnd od of social ecology, I amn very proud of the role my people play in that. For Jewish identity to be submerged in the great American mix is not acceptable to me.

    My problem is that the Judaism I cherish is very threatened by changes in the US. In different ways my grandfather (a socialist rabbi), my father (Ike’s “Jewish” doctor), and my mother (invaded a Catholic neighborhood), all CONSCIOUSLY practiced liberal Judaism. In the sixties, we were taught that supporting Dr. King was a mitzvah and every Jew I knew was a supporter. In South Africa, Nadine Gordimer and other Jews were prominent early members of the ANC.

    Why is this kind of Judaism diminishing? First, our kiods are not taught “Jewish History” the way other ethnicn groups are taight their history.

    Here is a challenge for you. Take any Jew you know and ask her or him the following ten(sic) questions:

    1. Who were the Mississippi Three ansd why are they importnat to Jewish history?

    The three civil rights workers burned to death in Mississippi wwr all Jews, on a recent convert. Their deaths typify the Jeiwsh concept of mitzvah.

    2. Describe the role of Jess in the discovery of Americas.

    Columbus’ ships werer manned by Jews .. probably including his navigator Juan de Torres.\

    3, What proportion of Nobels laureates have been Jews?

    I am not sure of the xcurrent number but it may be as high as 50%

    4. When were the first blacks converted to Judaism?

    5. Who were the pharisees?

    The pharisees were the first teachers of nonviolent resistance. They created this as an answer to Roman hegemony. A large part of the words of Jesus is attributable to Pharisaic sources. The invective in the NT against the pharisees is likley the result of Roman propaganda.

    6. Name the founders of the AFL and ILGWU.

    7. Who were the memebrs of the Jewish brigade ibn WWII.

    8. Who was Maimonides? Hoe did he rrlate to Saladin and Spinoza?

    9. What is a “converso?” What converso played a major role in the origin of the novel?

    Cervantez

    10. Jews have lived for over 1000 years in which of the following countries? England, Spain, China, Egypt, India, South Africa, Italy, France, Sweden,

    all but Sweden

  28. 38

    spews:

    Seattle Jew
    I agree very strongly with your comment “She MUST avoid being seen as a one issue campaigner”, and have already made this suggestion to the Burner Campaign.

    I hope that the Burner Campaign will round out its platform to address economic and health care issues in a more substantive way. A recent poll of college students (one poll doesn’t necessarily mean anything)indicated that the number one issue for college student was the economy, not the Iraq War.

    Many of Darcy’s most adamant supporters like myself are older, and are vehemently against the unnecessary War in IRAQ. But I’m concerned that Darcy, in being responsive to a valid concern of this older crowd, is essentially framing her campaign as one looking more into the past than the future.

    Obama isn’t doing this. While he plans to get us out of Iraq, this isn’t the centerpeice of his campaign, his campaign looks to a time in the future beyond Iraq.

    I feel the Iraq War is somewhat of a done deal. The exhorbitant costs and drip-drip of bad news have doomed this effort. With or without Darcy Burner, the Iraq war will end.

    I think its great that Darcy has a plan for ending the war. But I think Darcy needs to round out her campaign by offerring a better vision of how she will address economic and health needs of her constituients.

  29. 39

    seattlejew spews:

    @36 Darryl

    I think you are just retreading well trod turf. I understand the rationale behind the plan and agree that it was and is a good idea.

    The issue between us is not who we support, we agree. My issue is with tactics.

    First, I think the plan, as written, has a serious flaw. I understand the concept that this is meant as a legislative plan and am pleased to see DB rpomting it that way. Nonetheless, the hole is there and it is easy to imagine a commercial that factually attacks this plan as simplistic.

    Second, Reicher IS now a cngressman and has an established record. That is a good thing and DB can attack it.

    Third, to call a seated congressman of two terms inexperienced is not going to fly. He IS more xperienced than DB and she will lose that mud fight.

    Fourth, the issues hidden ion the plan are good and need to be pursued on their own! Doing so would give DB more “depth.”

    Finally, given the natuire of her district, it seems absurd that she does not take on issues that I assume would get strong supprt:

    a. immigration reform for the gifted and talented. I like the idea of replacing the guest qworker/slavery visas with something that commits thew worker and the US to a longer term relationship. Canada does it, so should we.

    b. Higher Ed. We both know El Busho has been el disaster for higher ed.

    c. Abortion, supreme court.

    d. Internet reform .. access, high speed, etc.

  30. 40

    seattlejew spews:

    @38 Pete

    Thanks! Sometimes when I talk with Darryl or Goldy about this, I get the feeling that the her leadership on the war is a bigger issue than getting her elected. There is word in Democratese for that: McGovern.

    The assets to help her are, I am sure, available. The UW, MS, Amazon, are rife with high level folk whop lilve on the Eastside and would endorse her. Being there BEFORE hairdo is critical.

    As for the plan, to vbe blunt I am not impressed. The most critical issue of HOW and WHEN to leave are fuzzed over. What she does do .. better than Barack for that matter, is begin the important question of what comes afterwards.

    Perhaps the plan would be better called the Post Iraq Reconstruction Plan. More to the point, she raised really critical issues about what sort of Army we need, what sorts of presence we might create in Iraq rthat is more constructive, etc.

    Indeed, she COULD take a line form the O man .. “We got in stupid, lets get out smart.” BUT getting out smart means repairing th huge damage GWB has done to our foreign policy, economy, schools, etc.

    Finally, as a citizen, I AM worried about her I know she is bright and ambitious. I also believe in supporting others who are supported by people I like. B ut I do woprry about the scope of her interests.

    One idea that I like would be for her to assemble a sort of citizen’s cabinet of Eastsiders who can advise her on the major issues facing the District.