Of course I’m generalizing, but when cynics ask me the difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party — implying that there isn’t much of one — I like to point out that us Democrats actually believe in government, whereas Republicans… really don’t. Democrats believe that government of the people, by the people, for the people is a positive and necessary tool for improving the lives of all our citizens in a complex, modern society. Republicans believe that the government that governs least, governs best.
Again, this is a generalization; both parties have their contradictions and both represent a spectrum of ideology, but this hands on vs hands off philosophy is a convenient and useful metaphor. And I think Ron Sims’ announcement yesterday that he is proposing $20 million in next year’s county budget to buy land for greenbelts, open space and trail corridors is a great illustration of these two competing ideologies.
I’m not suggesting that many Republicans are going to come out against preserving open space, though I’m guessing some will object to the cost of the proposal. However, such proposals are really antithetical to the conservative ideology that professes a “free market” solution to nearly every problem. Take for example the proposal to buy the last remaining chunk of private land in the heart of Discovery Park:
The largest chunk of the county’s proposed funding — $2.7 million — would go toward helping the city of Seattle buy 24 acres of military housing in Discovery Park, which the Navy sold to a private developer last year.
Under a proposed $9 million deal, the city will buy the Capehart property that park advocates feared could have been turned into luxury homes or condos and permanently protect it as open space.
It is hard to argue that using taxpayer money to protect valuable land from private development is consistent with the Republicans’ “free market” ideology, yet our region would not boast the quality of life it does, if our forefathers had not shown the foresight to do exactly that. Public parks, greenbelts and trail corridors benefit all of us, but without an activist government to protect us from the tragedy of the commons, they simply would not exist.
It is convenient for Republicans statewide, and especially in King County, to complain that it is corrupt elections departments that prevent them from winning at the polls, for their real obstacles are much more daunting. Both the county and the state continue to trend Democratic, because more citizens agree with our ideology than with theirs. Voters want parks and greenbelts and trail corridors. Voters want better schools and libraries, and safer, more efficient roads and public transit. Voters want effective police, fire and EMS. Voters want the essential public services that only government can provide.
Democrats win because we share voters’ values.
Good post, Mr. Goldy. Of course, goopers will posit “a rising tide raises all boats”, but that only applies to those that have them.
$20 million for open space… or $20 million towards a $22.8 million bill for a modern elections department facility?
No wonder the Council in a rare bipartisan fashion told your (outgoing) Executive where to stick his Taj Mahal.
Democrats win because we share voters’ values. -by Goldy, 10/15/2005, 12:47 PM
Right.
Gosh, you know, that just begs the question… then what’s been stopping them from winning anything nationally, thusfar?
Are the private developers selling the property willingly, at a market price? If so, then I don’t have a big problem with this. But, if the county is using any kind of eminent domain argument, then I no longer support the idea.
Making assumptions about all voters based on Seattle or King county seems pretty silly. But, that’s par for the course.
Josef, Even I, in my most tortured dreams, and I have many of them, do not see Simms going down to electoral defeat. You are well meaning but delusional. By the way, have you signed my latest petition to protect our under attack initiative industry from unfair foreign competition?
Josef @ 2
Please, please, please. Go back on your meds. I mean, you have become apoplectic over 6 dual voters without ’em.
I’ll tell you what. You go back on meds, and I’ll write a letter to Sims asking that KC Elections be moved into trailers. Will that do it for ya?
In any case, with all that new green space, there will be plenty of places to set up the KC Elections trailers.
Josef @ 2 –
I would think that most (if not all) of the funds would be coming from dolaars that can not be spent any other way – by state law. I have to admit to that being an assumption since I’m not that familiar with the “State of Seattle’s” budget. But they do have a conservation futuers levy in the property tax.
Josef is a delusional idiot. Irons is finished. He’s going crashing down in flames. King County voters will reelect Sims because he shares their values.
Oh, and remember, Josefine: You lost the election challenge….every claim of fraud, “dismissed with prejudice”… your party is trying to keep elections an issue and failing. Logan has overseen great improvements in the last election.
The joke is on you.
Comment by dj — 10/15/05 @ 1:55 pm
No.
Comment by Curious George — 10/15/05 @ 2:26 pm
Certainly applications and budget transfers can be made, wink.
Comment by Mount Olympus Hiker — 10/15/05 @ 2:43 pm
Go take a hike with Timothy Goddard, blog-hiker sometime :-).
Do not look for all the answers at once. A path is formed by placing stones one in front of the other.
Goldy,
How can you whine about lack of funding for roads, when gov’t obviously doesn’t make it their top priority.
Demo values= state ownership of the means of production-socialism
The largest chunk of the county’s proposed funding – $2.7 million – would go toward helping the city of Seattle buy 24 acres of military housing in Discovery Park, which the Navy sold to a private developer last year.
I don’t mind if the county buys land as long as they pay tax’s on it Goldy. If the local goverment buys up all the land and nobody owns anyting, it look more like the Old Russia. Then that is where you are headed for anyway. Now what is Seattle going to do with military housing anyway, bring the tent people over from the East Siade to live in it for free. The last time they did that was Sand Point NAS and look what it looks like today. Now the city is a slum lord and that is what the neighbors all wanted anyway. What is your model that Seattle should strive for New Orleans were everyone works for the goverment and provides for their needs. Goldy, Democrats really believe in, that it is government for the people, goveren by the Democrats of people, and for the people to think it is a positive and necessary tool for improving the lives of all our citizens in a complex, modern society. Goldy what makes this society so complex and modern that it requires a small hand full of idiots to run everybody’s life. I think the Christian folks would do a lot better job, since all they want to do is save my soul, and not take everything from those who are successful in life. At one TIME the Democrates had real “CLASS” when Scoop Jackson was around, but the party got hijack by a bunch of extermist. I think your friend the Wabbit still dreams for those days and would do anything to bring them back. Visit Oregon where the state is owned 80% by the Fed’s and the State and tax’s are paid by the 20% that are left holding the tab. You all could go to Canada and have that govermentth take care of you the rest of you lives. They are back log with everyone entering Canada after Bush won the elections, but you could sneak across the border. You know like all you friends are doing it from West Seattle and claiming Political asylum.
Total bull shit post by Goldensteinburg. Democrats like Goldy believe in socialism, taxes, buting black’s vote with welfare and food stamps, and voter fraud. They are economic parasites. Goldy, ever serve in the military to defend this country and ensure our freedoms? Fuck no. But you are the first to whine and bitch. Fuck you parasite Democrats. Fuck you ‘guvment” hacks. Atlas has Shrugged, and you will be scatched off like ticks on a dog.
I find the phrase “…protect valuable land from private development…” interesting. What’s wrong with private development? What’s wrong with developing land so people can have a place to live?
So on one hand, democrats help create problems… in this case reducing the supply of land… and then later complain about how the poooooooooor can’t afford to buy homes. Seems inconsistent to me.
And yes, I will complain about the cost. Where does the money come from? Where is this in the list of priorities? Democrats do feel good stuff like this. Conservatives (not necessarily Republicans) make a priority list and stop spending when the money runs out. Given all the other problems that King County has (like running clean elections), I think this would fail to make the cut.
Comment by Mark The Redneck — 10/15/05 @ 4:54 pm
Hear, hear.
Conservatives (not necessarily Republicans) make a priority list and stop spending when the money runs out.
As my hero, George Bush, demonstrates year after year.
Goldy,
Your particular example — $20 million for open space acquisition next year — has nothing to do with the difference (if any) between Democrats and Republicans, or between Ron Sims and David Irons.
“Sims emphasized that the spending will come from dedicated funding sources such as Conservation Futures Tax [$11.6 million] and Real Estate Excise Tax [$8.7 million] dollars. An improved King County economy in 2005 has increased these two sources of revenue.”
http://www.metrokc.gov/exec/ne.....4green.htm
As far as I have been able to tell, these two tax levies were approved by the voters of King County around 1988, when Republican Tim Hill was King County Executive and was promoting their approval.
As for the current handling of these dedicated tax levies, David Irons wouldn’t be able to do anything different than Ron Sims. These monies — which will be about $20 million in 2006 — have to be used for open space acquisition and conservation projects, and not for any other purpose.
Ass @3 and Janet @4:
Did you read Goldy’s post too quickly? Or are you purposely distorting his words for your own ends? Either way, your are barking up the wrong tree: Goldy made no generalizations beyond King County and the state of Washington.
It seems convenient that you did not address the core of his argument — that Republicans have consistently lost in greater Seattle and Washington elections because they are out of step with the prevailing values of the voters. All the whining about election processes won’t change that basic fact.
Here’s a prediction: If Rossi boots Gregoire out of office in 2008 , he will not have the mandate the turn the state significantly rightward. If Rossi tries to follow in Bush II’s footsteps, he’ll be a one-term governor. Simple as that. And you won’t be able to (legitimately) blame it on King County elections.
Since it’s early in the thread and things are actually fairly civilized for a Saturday, I wanted to ask:
Has anyone who is voting for Irons actually had the benefit of standing in a room with the guy?
I did just that the other day. The guy is an embarassment.
I don’t say this about everyone. I’ve heard Dick Armey and Orrin Hatch speak at length. John McCain too. Smart guys. I don’t agree with about 90% of what they say, but they have their point of view, they have reasons to back it up, and they can explain themselves capably and eloquently.
Irons is a walking disaster area. He was in a no-confrontation debate format (i.e. a question was asked, he answered the question, Sims answered the question. There was no opportunity for rebuttal, nobody was allowed to say “you just lied and you knew it”, or anything of the sort), and he struggled in that format.
Mind you, I don’t care much for Sims. The guy just tried to put a boatload of airplane traffic in my back yard, and had the cojones to say afterwards that the propsal was on the table at all because of “due dilligence”. But it’s simple. Ask the guy a question, he can explain himself. He explains himself capably, and seems to have a grasp on the details.
The only way I can see supporting Irons is if you believe government is inherently evil and bad. In this case, putting him in the county exec’s chair would make it a self-fufilling prophecy.
Richard Pope @ 14
“As far as I have been able to tell, these two tax levies were approved by the voters of King County around 1988, when Republican Tim Hill was King County Executive and was promoting their approval.”
On the other hand, in 1988, Harriet Meirs was a Catholic and a Democrat, and the Republicans (nationally) still had a small amount of credibility as fiscal conservatives.
How things change with time!
jsa,
would you rather has his IQ, ok low, or Ron’s gift of gab coupled with coverups…?
jsa @ 18
righton @ 18 wrote
“would you rather has his IQ, ok low, or Ron’s gift of gab coupled with coverups…?”
Let me see if I can translate this … righton wants to know if you want a dimwit who is unable to communicate effectively (Irons) over an intelligent individual who is also an effective communicator (Sims). I not sure what the “coupled with coverups” refers to, though—sounds like righton is brainwashed by uSP.
Conservatives (not necessarily Republicans) make a priority list and stop spending when the money runs out.
As my hero, George Bush, demonstrates year after year.
Hey, the gravy train never really ends so long as China is willing to loan us the cash these “conservative” Republican spendthrifts need in excess.
re 3: They’ve been too passive in shouting you arseholes and your kooky ideology down.
Headless Lucy and Roger Rabbit’s post immediately. Al other wait. Typical Democrat bull shit. Fuck you, libs!! Riot, loot, steal through “guvment”, and soon America will drop you dead on the streets, and no jury will award your ACL Jew lawyers a nickel.
LiberalDave, OOwWs, and Josef
GWB is R, but he’s certainly no Conservative. He has violated many conservative ideals. Steel tarriffs. Failure to protect borders. Huge increases in “entitlements” such as prescriptions. The stoopidty of spending $500k for every man woman and chirrens in Nawlins. Refuses to recognize the job of global cleansing of every gd muslim. Appointing a Supreme Court judge with no qualifications based purely on herhavingavagina.
He’s infinitely better than The Inventor of The Internet, or JFK, but he’s a huge disappointment to real Conservatives.
Comment by Richard Pope — 10/15/05 @ 5:14 pm
Crap. Oh well, thanks for being a truth-teller I suppose.
“Conservatives (not necessarily Republicans) make a priority list and stop spending when the money runs out.
That’s funny. How many years has the budget been balanced since 2000? None? Hmmm, how about from 1980 to 1992? None? Well I guess that kind of makes you sound like a fool.
dj
meant to say, do you really like another politician (after clinton) who is full of baloney…ron simes is full of baloney, himself, and you guys know it, but won’t admit it..
Woody Guthrie, a national treasure in and of himself, wrote a verse to , “This Land is Your Land, This Land is My Land”, that you seldom hear. It goes something like this:
“Well I was walkin’ thru the redwood forest
And I saw a sign said, “No Trespassin'”.
But on the other side
It didn’t say nothin’.
This land was made for you and me!!
Headless Lucy: Communist………right out of Animal Farms
@2
For one who screams as loudly for better elections management as you do, Josef, it’s more than a little disingenuous to argue against funding for a functional building for elections staff. Taj Mahal, my ass — have you priced office buildings lately? $22.8 mil doesn’t buy much, my friend. Currently, KCRE is scattered in multiple (mostly aging) facilities, impeding efficient or effective management. You can’t have it both ways, Jo — if you don’t want a dysfunctional county elections department, then you can’t house their functions in dysfunctional office space.
Josef the Naysayer is a typical Puke — criticizes everything, solves nothing.
@11
Let’s hope the money comes out of MTR’s hide. I’m gonna write to Sims and ask him to fund open space by enacting a “mouth tax” on right-wing blowhards named “Mark.”
@18
That one’s easy. I’ll take a dissembling Sims over a brain-dead Irons every time. Holding my nose, but I’ll do it.
@24
I don’t like Sims, but your candidate is so bad I’ll vote for him anyway. Happy now?
Goldy closes his post thusly: “Voters want parks and greenbelts and trail corridors. Voters want better schools and libraries, and safer, more efficient roads and public transit. Voters want effective police, fire and EMS. Voters want the essential public services that only government can provide.”
Is this an intentionally inverted list, leat important to most important? Or was it supposed to be most important to least important? Assume the former and the scope of the problem becomes clear.
There are clearly some things that only government can do, and some things that government should never attempt. Government is usually oblivious to the difference. Lefties don’t recognize the never attempts even exist.
Do you regard public recreation as a core government function? Many of us regard it as pleasant, but not a core function. How about a post on core functions? Would they include public safety and the conduct of elections? How about a discussion of zoning, and its contribution to our present state? Should public money be spent in ways to advance or impede the cause of your friends or enemies?
In a land of 3 national parks, gobs of wilderness, but clogged highways, you’d think we could say, “ok, we’re long on forests, but a big weak on roads…so lets fund those”
Every major city has clogged highways. Get used to it or move to Shitton, WY.
Terry Jay @ 31
“Do you regard public recreation as a core government function?”
So, are you proposing as an alternative that governments sell off all “commons” (national forests, state, county and local parks, libraries, protected waterways, and town squares)?
I mean, it isn’t an all or nothing issue, is it?
righton @ 24
“meant to say, do you really like another politician (after clinton) who is full of baloney…ron simes is full of baloney, himself, and you guys know it, but won’t admit it..”
Ohhhh … I see. That translates to “I’m a Republican and therefore hate Sims and everything about him.”
Thanks for clarifying.
Mark The Redneck @ 11
And yes, I will complain about the cost. Where does the money come from? Where is this in the list of priorities? Democrats do feel good stuff like this. Conservatives (not necessarily Republicans) make a priority list and stop spending when the money runs out. Given all the other problems that King County has (like running clean elections), I think this would fail to make the cut.
MTR, Republicans are conservatives, or at least they claim that they are, and yet they turned a
230 Billion dollar surplus
into a
560 billion dollar deficit.
in less then 4 years. Where in the name of the Original Light do you get the idea that conservatives “stop spending when the money runs out”.
The only difference is that LIBRULS spend money on the people to help the people. Conservatives ladle out all the gravy to their cronies who then consider it perfectly legitimate to rip off the taxpayer and maybe it will help the people. Bottom line with the new plutocracy: Pigs at the Trough.
sorry for the bad script. I have not yet mastered html.
Terry Jay asks:
“…Do you regard public recreation as a core government function? Many of us regard it as pleasant, but not a core function…”
And Josef @ 9 implies that revenues can be shifted within budgets.
Both make skewed arguments for “fiscal home rule.” That is, let local government spend revenues on what the electorate wants. The problem is the legislature. They decide what the electorate wants and dedicate various revenue streams to various functions.
Take, for example:
property tax conservation futures levy – RCW 84.34.230
property tax emergency medical svcs levy – RCW 84.52.069
property tax $0.50 criminal justice levy – RCW 84.52.135
real estate excise tax (there are four local options – three of which are dedicated for certain purposes) – RCW 82.46
And the this limited list doesn’t even mention local option sales taxes or local option transportation taxes.
The other problem is getting the general public to agree on what are “core functions.” All (I hope) agree that law and justice is a core function. But with that part of local government discretionary budgets’ approaching (if not exceeding) 70% other programs (elections ?) must skimp and save.
So…. What are “core functions?” And how much should be spent on them? (Transportaion, by the way, is a separate, dedicate governmental fund with it’s own revenue sources)
Heck, why don’t ya just steal land from homeowners, don’t sweat trying to pretty up land you already have. Isn’t there some homes on Mercer you can “emminent domain” into a park, or even better, a “nature walk”
Thomas – 10/15/05 @ 11:06 pm
“…Isn’t there some homes [sic] on Mercer you can “emminent domain” into a park, or even better, a “nature walk”
According to a recent decision from the SCotUS, not for parks or nature walks, but certainly for economic development.
Speaking of Democratic (and democratic) values – go HERE for the latest…
Attention right-of-center minded:
For the record, the area of Magnolia on which the Defense Department has proposed private developement is property which was gifted to the military by the City of Seattle. That was about 100 years ago. With Fort Lawton being shuttered, it is only reasonable that the DoD return the property, and not develop the property for private use. If they want to charge us for the return of our own property, that’s ok, I guess. As long as we get it back.
Also, it’s US DoD property, so imminent domain doesn’t apply.
Comment on 36
Hey all, here’s a great group photo of GOP corporate campaign donors — http://www.mises.org/images/pigs.gif
Roger Rabbit – 10/16/05 @ 12:15 am
C’mon, Rabbit…. that’s a low blow even for you.
Richard @14,
Come on… don’t be so intentionally concrete. What I clearly said was that acquiring land for green space is contrary to Republicans’ conservative, free market ideology. I didn’t say that R’s would oppose it… I said it was inconsistent with their philosophy.
I’m using open space to make a larger ideological point. Republicans simply don’t believe in government, and Democrats do. And if we were to follow the Republican ideology to its logical conclusion, we wouldn’t have any parks or open space… and no public access to Lake Washington or the Puget Sound…. just miles and miles of private beaches.
This is in addition to the 40 million bid on the BNSF road which could be put to good use as heavy commuter rail, in the center of the worst congestion and with some of the highest densities on the eastside. Oh yeah, he wants to spend the money to build a bike trail with it. That’s right.
Yep, sure are democratic values. Talk a good game, spend LOTs of money, and really have little benefit.
Good to go!
Goldy,
“Of course I’m generalizing, but when cynics ask me the difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party – implying that there isn’t much of one – I like to point out that us Democrats actually believe in government, whereas Republicans… really don’t.”
Do you really believe this? If so, this statement rates pretty high on the unintended comedy scale.
I would think you’d be praising the current Republican Congress since they’ve passed big government programs like the Medicare prescription benefit, billions in disater relief, and big transporation projects. That’s hardly demonstrating a disbelief in government. Even most Libertarians don’t believe in no government.
dj@35: I thought you were an independent or something like that whom like most animal hind parts democrats hate GWB.
Regarding the CAO, why pay taxes on land you can’t use? If the government says you can’t use it then is it really yours? That’s what you lefties can’t fathom living in your apartments and condos in Seattle where the land is common use. Land ownership is one of the few rights left in America, and you lefties want to control that too. Oh that’s right because it’s for the common good! NOT!!!
Curious George: There are many sites (many pay ones) one can view Rupert Wabbet delivering low blows. What do you expect; he claims to be a bunny.
Your analysis is simply wrong. Republicans today are dominated by neocons, and as their record shows they will spend any amount of money on their goals.
Without going into the laundry list, the fact is Repub goals simply leave nothing behind and often damage what they find. From Ronnie boy’s just say no to GWB’s quest for WMD’s, it’s all money thrown away.
Democrats spend money on stuff like hiways or open space. Things that will survive them. Infrastructure.
Dems are builders. Repubs are pirates, today’s Vandals, bent on enforcing their will on others.
pud @ 47,
Here in Seattle we own houses too. Some of us own several of them. Don’t lecture us on property rights.
If the sole goal of land ownership is maxiumum benefit, mind if I set up a metalworking shop next to your house? I can provide good jobs for working-class folks (I expect to run two shifts, if that’s OK with you), and give you a pointed lesson on the perogratives of property rights at the same time.
Puddy @ 47
“dj@35: I thought you were an independent or something like that”
You would be correct.
“… whom like most animal hind parts democrats hate GWB.”
I do agree with most HA Democrats in disliking GWB. But, the way I see it, most Republicans (especially those from the fiscally conservative wing) should be pretty horrified by GWB as well.
Great comments, Puddy. Will you sign my initiative petition which mandates that all property owners in rural King County are entitled, under law, to be millionaires?
After all, the CAO has “reduced property values” and thus property taxes. This cannot stand. How can I make a living if those damnned dems cut taxes?
Are you kidding? Sims statement re the $20 million for green spaces is a blatant political ploy. Just three weeks before the election he “suddenly” has this news release to garner votes. So obvious! And you simply can’t generalize about all R’s or all D’s without being a drone. The NW prides itself on being filled with Independents. That means looking at the candidate – not the party desigation. Case in point: Irons is voting against 912 – which is against the R push. He also thinks homeless issues need to be a priority (not a 10 year plan like Sims) and he wants mass transit on the front burner. Compare that with Sims who is promising to fix problems he has let sit and/or created during the first 8 years of his tenure. Incredible. Also keep in mind Irons was the first KC counsel member to champion reducing the counsel to 9 – because it was good for the county, even though likely to hurt him personally. That kind of integrity is rare and just what we need in government. In contrast, Sims has spent $44 million on computers the county STILL doesn’t have and blames everyone else. No accountability at all. He also tried to force the SWA move to Boeing down our throats…until he got into a close race. And can anybody say they are proud of the KC election department? We deserve someone with management experience who can stand the heat for standing up for what he believes in and take rational positions – based on facts, not party affiliation. Reporters keep saying Irons is not a great speaker. So? If you want to see great oration, go the movies. If you want someone who will get the job done, vote for Irons. Sorry for the rant, but come on people – pay attention!
@49
“Your analysis is simply wrong. Republicans today are dominated by neocons, and as their record shows they will spend any amount of money on their goals.”
This isn’t true. Republicans first calculate how much money they have to spend to bankrupt government, then figure out their goals — $150 billion for a manned mission to Mars, $200 billion for Katrina relief, $15 billion to fight AIDS in Africa, $350 billion on an optional war in Iraq, a $700 billion gift to the drug and HMO industries, a $35 billion gift to the oil industry — whatever it takes to make sure government goes broke so it can’t help citizens who are elderly, infirm, disabled, poor, or hungry.
Bastards.
Goldy opines: “I’m not suggesting that many Republicans are going to come out against preserving open space, though I’m guessing some will object to the cost of the proposal.
Mark @11 above: “And yes, I will complain about the cost. Where does the money come from?”
Bingo. We have a winner. Pay the man, Goldy.
Goldy
Nice job highlighting the purely way out there angry libs (dj) and then the whack jobs (roger).
Roger, we conservs are mortified by GW and the deficits. Its bad policy and it cuts our nuts off when we try to unveil the Demo desire to way overspend.
If you all didn’t serve up total turd candidates, we might go your way. I easily would have vote for Bob Kerrey, maybe even John Edwards.
MTR does not understand most things in life. He is still waiting for the money the tooth fairy was supposed to bring him in 1961
MJ @ 45: “And if we were to follow the Republican ideology to its logical conclusion, we wouldn’t have any parks or open space”
Your gross generalizations aside, that still isn’t true. If people in a given area decide that public parks are beneficial to their “quality of life,” they can (through majority vote) decide to spend common funds for such things. Better yet, I would venture to say that a more true Republican plan would be for the benevolent wealthy to donate such things for the good of the populace — as is done in a number of area communities where land trusts receive hefty private donations for buying open space.
One could take much more of a cynical view of Democrats and say that all of this open space, etc. is just bread and circuses to keep the people distracted while they do the same morally questionable things that most other politicians do. If you take a deep look at some of the smaller cities in this state, you will find cases where Democrat landowners build their home (or development or whatever) and then suddenly “go eco” and want everything else in the area preserved — thereby decreasing the land supply and increasing the value of their own properties.
DJ: I don’t like this profilgate spending either. So I propose they cut all democratic profilgate spending along with the road pork. Oops.. there goes the $220 Million for WA Roads. That’s hundreds of $$Billions each year. Watch Nancy, Teddy, and Harry scream!!!!
Watch Salesman: Naah, I live in Snohomish.
61
whatever it takes to make sure government goes broke so it can’t help citizens who are elderly, infirm, disabled, poor, or hungry.
And trust your stupid dumbass scoial programs to fix the poor and the hungry …. it hasnt worked for the last 40 years why in the hell would it work now.
VANDALS TARGET ANTI-INITIATIVE 330 SIGNS
Initiative 330 is the doctor and insurance company sponsored scheme to infringe on the right of patients to sue careless doctors for injuries caused by negligence. It’s sort of like giving reckless drivers a free pass if they crash into you and put you in the hospital (or grave).
Vandals have systematically defaced “No on 330” campaign signs throughout the north Seattle area by spray painting them to read “No on 339.” This activity obviously is intended to confuse voters, as no “Initiative 339” is on the November blalot. I’ve seen dozens of signs, all identically altered, along Aurora Avenue in Shoreline, Edmonds, Mountlake Terrance, and Lynnwood. In fact, I didn’t see a single “No on 330” sign that WASN’T vandalized.
Gee, I wonder who could be doing that? Supporters of so-called “tort reform” usually are associated with the right wing of the Republican Party.
Campaign signs, regardless of whether they’re on private property or placed in authorized locations along public thoroughfares, are private property; and defacing, tearing down, or vandalizing campaign signs is a crime. That’s right — a CRIME.
But shit, what’s new about the anti-reason, anti-free speech, anti-integrity party committing crimes? October is, after all, National Indict a Republican Month. In fact, several more Republicans may be indicted before this month is over — and just not for crimes as measly as defacing campaign signs. How about: Money laundering, insider trading, perjury, treason, for starters?
“Coddle a Criminal – Hug a Republican”
Go look at the house on the corner of 185th and Meridian in Shoreline and tell me who the criminals are you asshole.
Righties won’t support a one-time expenditure of $20 million to preserve a jewel of an urban park and acquire irreplaceable green belts, yet they’ll vote in droves for Initiative 900, which will cost taxpayers $25 million A YEAR for redundant “performance audits” that may not save taxpayers a cent.
Anyone who knows anything about business will agree I-900 is a bad investment for taxpayers unless it saves more money than it costs, but there is absolutely no assurance of that. The sponsors and promoters of I-900 are, by and large, the same folks who claimed fraud was rampant in our elections sytem — and spent $2 million of L & I taxes proving that Dino Rossi got 4 illegal votes.
Would you buy a used car — or an initiative — from these people?
Roger, running scared…
Enron guys also feared Audits. Word is the state (and dean logan) fear the bright light of the truth..
Scared? of what? you guys?
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
New to this board, so hope you guys can bear with me.
Exactly what does a conservative stand for?
I was always told that fiscally, conservatives were better for our government…yet, our national budget is a bust.
I was always told that conservatives want small government…yet they want to dictate morallity to all… (ie. whom I marry, what my doctor and I decide, what my wife and I decide on right to die…)
Also, I see democrats wanting to help the underpriveleged, but over and over again, I hear, let people help themselves, let them pull themselves out of poverty…yet I see tax breaks over and over again for businesses that can’t make it, or want extra breaks. Are conservatives not allowed to help individuals??? Yet ok for failing businesses?? what is their policy?
I don’t get it, do conservatives want small or big government??
As far as personal property, big democratic government seems to be dictating what I can do with my private property. I would like to open a club at my suburban household. I favor hip-hop and would like to serve my customers past 2am. Can I get a conservative to help me out with my business dreams of opening a neighborhood club business. I need help in getting past these damn democrats who seem more concerned with my neighbors than with my dreams of running a business. Help.
Seriously, “Righton,” audits, performance measures, and so forth are a good thing. However, there’s already a LOT of transparency and oversight of local and state government here in Washington. We have the Public Disclosure Act, the Open Meetings Act, the state auditor’s office, various executive orders, and so forth.
The truth is, watchdogging government is more time consuming than most citizens can cope with, and traditionally we’ve relied on journalists to do this for us. Yet, right wingers ceaselessly attack the MSM — precisely because real journalists are objective and factual, and refuse to propagandize right-wing (or, for that matter, liberal) ideology.
Forgive me for being cynical about the motives of I-900’s boosters, but you guys wouldn’t dream of spending $25 million a year to provide health care to kids, or even $20 on food stamps for an elderly widow — yet, you want to spend $25 million a year of taxpayer money on redundant audits that I strongly suspect have NOTHING to do with good government and everything to do with furthering your ideological agenda of NO GOVERNMENT — so corporations can loot and pillage the middle class at will, free from government interference.
Fuck you. I’m going to vote AGAINST Initiative 900. Enough is enough … there are over 200 state agencies and most of them don’t have an entire budget of $25 million a year … I see no need to take this money away from education, health care for kids, transportation, or other REAL NEEDS just so you jerkoffs can have another tool for harassing and obstructing public servants from doing the job we hire them for.
When you support spending $25 million a year for things that actually benefit people, I might take you seriously, but I’m not holding my breath.
Jim — a “conservative” is someone who wants your money … all of it … even if he has to steal it.
I would appreciate everyones response…while they may vary…
I am ultimately curious as to what a conservative really stands for, and what actions we can see to confirm those beliefs.
We can all name call, and make fun of each other, while that may be fun… I would like to actually get a grip of what is dividing this country when it comes to politics.
@70
Enron feared audits? Who are you kidding? Enron and the auditors were in bed together … remember Arthur Andersen?
Ratepayers were robbed blind — and the so-called independent auditors DID NOTHING. Government regulators, not private sector auditors, shut down the Enron scammers.
If it wasn’t for those government guys, the Enron criminals would still be practicing energy extortion against us. The earth would have fallen into the sun before private-sector so-called auditors did anything about it.
Seattle City Light ratepayers are paying triple the former rates because of these crooks — and because of the private sector “auditors” who not only didn’t audit Enron’s activities but actually helped Enron steal from us.
You can take your private-sector auditors and shove them up your ass!
Why should Washington taxpayers divert $25 million a year from programs like K-12 education, health care for kids, and transportation just to line the pockets of private sector “auditors?” Initiative 900 is a useless make-work project for politicians’ CPA cronies at our expense.
The radical right doesn’t want to develop land. They want taxpayers to pay them NOT to develop it– much like farmers who get paid not to grow crops. I see where this privatization scheme is going. How about a compromise.
Roger @ 73: “a “conservative” is someone who wants your money … all of it … even if he has to steal it.”
And Lefty Dems believe that ALL money, including mine, belongs to them (via the government) to spend as only they, the allegedly “enlightened,” see fit. If you thing conservatives want to “steal” the money, fine — keep your head up your partisan (horse’s) ass. But at least conservatives admit the money is mine in the first place.
Jim @ 74
Sad to say, but “conservative” and “liberal” and “progressive” don’t really mean much in American politics. There are things they’re SUPPOSED to mean, but the vocal, radical wings of the political parties have corrupted the meanings. As others have posted here, the “conservatives” in DC have run up debt beyond any war-related expenditures — and have little to show for it. They are not being true to conservative ideals. “Progressive” is just a term borrowed by those formerly called “liberals” because they want to seem hip and now and forward-thinking. In fact, most only know two things — anything the GOP says/does is wrong and all problems can be fixed if you throw enough money at them (aka “the reason x doesn’t work is that not enough money is/was spent on it”).
Unfortunately, it seems that the “moderates” — both Republican and Democrat — are routinely attacked by the fringes of their respective parties. They’re (falsely) criticized for lacking political convictions, yet they’re likely our only hope.
Response to #78
78. Roger @ 73: “a “conservative” is someone who wants your money … all of it … even if he has to steal it.”
And Lefty Dems believe that ALL money, including mine, belongs to them (via the government) to spend as only they, the allegedly “enlightened,” see fit. If you thing conservatives want to “steal” the money, fine – keep your head up your partisan (horse’s) ass. But at least conservatives admit the money is mine in the first place.
Comment by Mark— 10/16/05 @ 10:34 pm”
Mark, you state:
“But at least conservatives admit the money is mine in the first place”
Then why do we give breaks to corporations, businesses? with tax breaks, which by your argument is OUR money.
If it really is “MY” money, why do we give tax breaks for corporations, but we can’t use government money for public use, ie. parks, open space, If we choose to do so?
If your arguement is that its mine mine mine, wouldn’t it be wrong no matter how the goverment spends the money – corporations or open space????
so do conservatives believe that there should be NO tax at all, on ALL levels, that ALL of my earnings should go to me only?
Roger @ 76
That may be. The better solution would be to eliminate “tenure” for government employees. Right now, all they need to do is be moderately productive and keep their nose clean for ONE year and they’re vitually locked into their job for life. And when given the chance to reform the way government does their hiring (i.e. WMS), they screw it up — resulting in Christine having to RIF 1,000 of those folks.
For the record, the area of Magnolia on which the Defense Department has proposed private developement is property which was gifted to the military by the City of Seattle. That was about 100 years ago. With Fort Lawton being shuttered, it is only reasonable that the DoD return the property, and not develop the property for private use. If they want to charge us for the return of our own property, that’s ok, I guess. As long as we get it back.
Also, it’s US DoD property, so imminent domain doesn’t apply.
Comment by Swift Boat Vets For Universal Healthcare— 10/15/05 @ 11:59 pm
After what Seattle did with Sand Point NAS I wouldn’t give them the waste lands behind the dikes in New Orleans. The only thing Seattle needs is a real large kick in the head with REALITY. You have to send the Tent people to the Eastside because you were unable to help them with housing. Hell you can’t even build a monorail in Seattle with your own money. Ron Sims can only steal land from the Eastside to support your poorly plan dreams and charge folks for the use Parks that they bought with their Tax money. When will God bless us with some real Democrates like Scoop Jackson and not the nut cases that run today ? Hey Headless Lucy are you the best that Democrates can find to run for Office? Swift Boats Vets are you really Vets? I can’t in my wildest dreams belive that a REAL soldier would support Socialism in this country.
Jim @ 80
I was more making a point than being precise. Taken to their extremes, the Left believes that ALL wealth belongs to the public and the Right believes ALL wealth is private. The real, functioning truth is somewhere in the middle. The difference between the parties is SUPPOSED to be that the Right taxes as little as possible and the Left taxes as much as “is needed” (in their opinion).
RE: tax breaks. If the tax code is uniform, then it isn’t taking away your money. If the tax break is specific to a company (e.g. Boeing), then one could argue that by not paying its fair share, they are putting a greater burden on everyone else to pick up the slack. OTOH, if that given project/industry were to locate elsewhere, there could be a loss of revenue stream greater than the extra tax break given. Just like eminent domain, limited tax breaks are a good idea abused and mangled by politicians for their own purposes.
If the sole goal of land ownership is maxiumum benefit, mind if I set up a metalworking shop next to your house? I can provide good jobs for working-class folks (I expect to run two shifts, if that’s OK with you), and give you a pointed lesson on the perogratives of property rights at the same time.
Comment by jsa on beacon hill— 10/16/05 @ 10:36 am
JSA on beacon hill you would be press to find union workers to do you labor. Does that mean you will hire illegal Aliens from Canada and house them in West Seattle?
Mark @ 81
Thanks for your comment.
As I stand more to the left, I agree that ‘breaks’ to companies can be good for a region/country. your quote ” if that given project/industry were to locate elsewhere, there could be a loss of revenue stream greater than the extra tax break given” I whole heartedly (sp?) agree with that.
BUT, yet the big but!!! :)
I also see a huge beneifit to social programs that are supported by our government. While we may give special governmential treatment to companies… I use the same reasoning to individuals. The benefit to help individuals in our region will only help our work force, our tax base, and our overall livibility to our region. We should help businessed strive in this area, and our country, wether it be tax breaks or other government incentives, but we should also strive to give benefits to individuals.
We will always have those to abuse the system, wether its a company, or an individual. But that shouldn’t stop us as a country, with use of our government, to help people.
My disagreement with conservatives come with the arguement that individuals should ‘lift themseves up’ without government help. If that is your belief, then argue the same with companies.
Just trying to understand why one would not want to help individuals via a government, just as we would help a business?
But shit, what’s new about the anti-reason, anti-free speech, anti-integrity party committing crimes? October is, after all, National Indict a Republican Month. In fact, several more Republicans may be indicted before this month is over – and just not for crimes as measly as defacing campaign signs. How about: Money laundering, insider trading, perjury, treason, for starters?
“Coddle a Criminal – Hug a Republican”
Hey Wabbit you would rather deface a Vietnam Vet home in Seattle with some of that left-wing crap? The folks who think highley of you will shit in your own back yard just to make a point. Now that is what I call tolerance on your part and no respect towards you. Godbless Wabbit and you to Headless Lucy
Jim @ 87: “My disagreement with conservatives come with the arguement that individuals should ‘lift themseves up’ without government help. If that is your belief, then argue the same with companies.”
In general, I believe in a “hand up, not a handout.” For example, I am a strong supporter — as are many other Republicans — of things like Washington CASH (www.washingtoncash.org), where the less fortunate are given microcredit loans, training and professional assistance to start their own businesses and become self-sufficient. Some of the money comes from government grants, but much of it from individual and foundation donations.
There are also people — often the severely injured or the mentally ill — that will always need our help. Sometimes, especially in years past, the community, church or other group would help that person survive. However, with the rise of the “Me Generation,” that kind of barn-raising mentality disappeared, so it is left to the taxpayers. It isn’t the government that helps those people. The government is (supposed to be) us… and it is definitely funded by us.
Similarly, if a company is otherwise sound but needs short-term assistance (and it makes public fiscal policy sense), I don’t have too much of an objection. But if the company keeps going back to the trough, perhaps it should be allowed to die a natural death.
Taken to their extremes, the Left believes that ALL wealth belongs to the public and the Right believes ALL wealth is private.
I’m not sure I’d agree with that, nor would I think it a good idea to in general judge large groups of people by their extremes.
But here’s the deal for the “it’s MY money” crowd:
We, the people, granted the power to tax to our state through the constitution, and we likewise granted to our elected representatives the power to set tax rates and decide (within some constitutional guidelines) how to spend said revenues. Thus, you as a state citizen have already given YOUR consent for YOUR money to be collected from you and used for various public purposes. If you don’t like it, move to a different state, or change your representatives, or change the constitution. And when you do, OR if you can’t change those things because you don’t have the votes, that’s what we call “democracy.”
Curtis @ 90
The problem arises when those we elected choose to go around the will of the people through “emergency” bills. The people (aka Mom) clearly said “no more,” so the Legislature went to the courts (aka Dad) to see if they could get a different answer.
As for your advice about not liking elected officials… Are you so willing to resign yourself to the fact that the GOP controls the national government?
Terry Jay @ 31
“Do you regard public recreation as a core government function?”
So, are you proposing as an alternative that governments sell off all “commons” (national forests, state, county and local parks, libraries, protected waterways, and town squares)?
I mean, it isn’t an all or nothing issue, is it?
Comment by dj— 10/15/05 @ 10:14 pm
DJ:
I asked a question, is recreation a core government function, and you immediately went to the most extreme negative interpretation of the implications of the question.
People need sustenance, protection and shelter, organized in any sequence of priority you prefer. Somewhere down the list is recreation, but only some types of recreation. Parks, ballfields, trails, even golf courses qualify. Gambling is ok for some governments. Some even go for swimming pools and skating rinks. Music and theatrics and professional sports, all with well-compensated performers, are common government endeavors in recreation. But where do you find a government movie or bowling? Some forms of recreation are blessed, and others are mere commercial ventures.
The Feds tried valiantly to put land into private hands using the railroad grants, the Homestead Act, the Timber and Stone Act, Land Grant Colleges, and other efforts. To the extent that they failed, we have Forests and Parks and the O&C Lands. If I were proposing that they be sold off, the only change would be from given to sold.
But I am only asking if recreation is a core government function. That is not the same as arguing that government should have no involvement.
The argument I would make is that government needs to fully fund the core responsibilities, which are public safety and transportation. Whatever is left can be spent on other priorities, recreation among them.
Apologies about my inability to check in here more than every few days, but sometimes life is like that. Keep the debate going. Regards.