I’ve written two posts over the past couple days suggesting that President Bush intends to lead us into a broader war with Syria and Iran… you know, the kind of posts my righty trolls like to see because they think it makes me look like a paranoid, crack-smoking nutcase. Well apparently, I’m not the only one smoking crack these days.
Yesterday, when Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Chairman Joseph Biden (D-DE) — a presidential candidate — specifically asked her if “the president has plans to cross the Syrian and/or Iranian border.”
Sec. Rice couldn’t say no: “Obviously, the president isn’t going to rule anything out.”
This exchange prompted a comment from Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), a conservative Republican who also is purported to have presidential aspirations. You know how it usually goes — a Democrat grills a representative of the Bush administration, prompting a Republican to come to his or her defense with prepared comments and questions.
But these aren’t usual times:
SEN. HAGEL: When you were engaging Chairman Biden on this issue, on the specific question — will our troops go into Iran or Syria in pursuit, based on what the president said last night — you cannot sit here today — not because you’re dishonest or you don’t understand, but no one in our government can sit here today and tell Americans that we won’t engage the Iranians and the Syrians cross-border.
Some of us remember 1970, Madame Secretary, and that was Cambodia, and when our government lied to the American people and said we didn’t cross the border going into Cambodia. In fact we did. I happen to know something about that, as do some on this committee.
So, Madame Secretary, when you set in motion the kind of policy that the president is talking about here, it’s very, very dangerous. Matter of fact, I have to say, Madame Secretary, that I think this speech given last night by this president represents the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam. If it’s carried out, I will resist it.
I guess Sen. Hagel is smoking crack too. Or perhaps he’s just put partisanship aside because he cares more about his country than his party?
I can’t prove that the Bush administration is insane — that it is in fact being guided by a kind of group psychosis — but then, I cannot find any evidence to the contrary. If the President directs air strikes or troop movements across the Syrian and/or Iranian borders, our military commanders will follow the orders of their Commander in Chief, with or without Congressional authorization. Short of preemptive impeachment, there is absolutely nothing the Democratic controlled Congress can do to prevent the president from following this disastrous path, regardless of the illegality of such an escalation.
If the President intends to choose this path, only the Republicans can save our nation from a catastrophe of historic proportions. Only a Republican Party unified in opposition to their President can persuade him that the political risks are as real as the military ones.
If you are a Republican, and you oppose escalating this war into a broader regional conflict, it is incumbent upon you to contact your party leaders and elected officials at all levels of state, local and federal government, and plead with them to publicly oppose any policy that would lead to war with Syria and Iran. Follow Sen. Hagel’s lead, and let your party know that if this policy is pursued, you will resist it.
At the height of the Watergate scandal our nation stood on the edge of a constitutional crisis. It was only when President Nixon became convinced that he had lost the support of his own party — that the threat of impeachment was real — that he finally backed down and resigned. President Bush needs to understand that he cannot legally expand this war without Congressional authorization, and that if he does, the political consequences will be brutal, swift and bipartisan.
“Well, there you go again”…..
The president receives massive critisism for “stay the course”, so what does he do? He listens to the American people, puts fresh faces in place to look at the war, consults with congress and comes up with a new plan. Of course, he is now attacked for his new plan…..
What a bunch of hypocrites. If anyone here believes we have lost. If Schummer, Hagel, Biden, Obama et al believe we have lost, then they are duty bound to put forth legislation to cut off funding for the war and force the president to withdraw the troops immeditely. IF THEY DON’T DO THIS then obviously they are playing politics…Are hypocrits and hopefully will be voted from office.
I have read both Biden’s and Hagel’s interchanges with Sec Rice. Guess what….more of the same…..critisism and complaining, without any alternative….
If what we were doing wasn’t working…….And what is proposed isn’t going to work…..Why hasn’t there been one presidential hopeful/senior dem congressman to come forward and offer helpful solutions?
Becuase they don’t have any, could care less about our troops or what happens to the US if we pull out of Iraq, and are just fine playing politics with troop lives.
(HARD HAT ON, LET’S HAVE IT)
Stuck in the 60’s?
You’re just pissed because you can’t burn a draftcard and run away to Canada.
Well, you still CAN move to Canada…..why don’t you?
Right Stuff
Perhaps even more important than changing course in Iraq right now is to stop Bush from exacerbating the situation. Right now, that is the pressing concern. Moreover, preventing him from taking action against Iran and Syria which would be disastrous for the nation, and the world, ranks right up there. So, if I’m a Senate Democrat, at this point I’d be concerned primarily about playing defense. Bush is crazy, Rice’s infatuation with him makes her act crazy, and we need to play a prevent defense. And, getting the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible is a plan, and a damned good one at that.
@3 OK, I get that you disagree with the president. so what does get the hell out of Iraq as soon as possible mean in real terms? As you noted and I agreed, I do tend to black and white this issue. If we are going to be there, then let’s be there all the way…If not, then get our guys out right now. Not tomorrow or the next day. Now.
I really don’t think we (USA) are going to invade Iran or Syria. I do think we will chase Iranian and Syrian forces back across their borders if they cross into Iraq. If for any reason Syrian or Iranian military engage with US military in Iraq…Gloves come off.
Right Stuff @1. You are sooo wrong it is hilarious. Do you actually believe your own words? I mean really, come on. No seriously, come on I would love to have a meaningful debate but the delusions have to stop. What kind of la la land do you live in if you think Bush has offered us anything new in regards to an Iraq plan? Same old story different day. But this time instead of debating whether they said “stay the course” they are dithering and parsing over whether to use the word “escalation” vs “surge”. The whole thing is a farce. And surge, what the hell kind of word is that? I will say one thing though that Bushco are creative marketeers in that they actually believe they can turn sh*t into shinola. I mean really? Surge? What kind of word is that? Sounds pornographic to me. As in “Bush gets a surge in his pants everytime he sees Condi in her f-me boots”. Surge is not a word that should be used on the ship of state.
I am so, so, so, so tired of you delusional bastards on the right. Please get with the picture and offer us a real debate. At least Hagel has intellectually honesty. And hell, who knows I could imagine myself voting for him. He was the strongest on the committee hearing. It would be the first time and probably only time I would ever vote for a Republican though.
re 1: Won, Lost???? What the hell are you talking about? There is no enemy in this war. There is no opposing team in Iraq. You can’t make war against a strategy. Bush doesn’t think like a team member. He thinks like a cheerleader.
“I know what we need to win!! That’s right! The perfect cheer!!”
THAT’S CRAZY!
@3 you offer not one solution.
Your rant is funny.
I assure you I am quite sane.
And I beieve the “word” is now augment.
that wa meant for @5
re 4: We’re outnumbered. There’s 100,000 fighters in Muqtada’s militia, alone. An escalation will inevitably lead to us subduing the middle East with nuclear weapons.
@6 What is your plan to win in Iraq.
RIght Stuff,
In other contexts I have said put all our troops on the borders. Seal up the country, and leave the internal conflict to its own devices. We can make sure that the Iranians, Syrians and Saudis stay out of the country. That I will agree on. At most we should be administering aid and pushing hard on the diplomatic front for a political resolution using all available leverage that we can. But we do not need to have our troops patroling the streets acting as rent-a-cops with targets on their backs. It is unfair to our troops and unfair to the American tax payers.
And to say that the other side doesn’t have a plan is intellectually dishonest. If you really believe that then I can’t debate you because all I will be debating is endless spin. And what’s the point of that? The opposition does have original thinking on the issue. It involves using the full apparatus of the ship of state, including every diplomatic option available. Bush should be on the floor of the UN pleading for an international force to get in the country. But he has too much pride for that and he can’t admit that maybe the UN and allies are important lest he excite the wingnuts in his base who only think in terms of unilateral action and that the UN should be destroyed.
We are not out of ideas you guys on the right are mostly unwilling to listen because they involve that dirty word “diplomacy”, something Bush utterly lacks. Even James Baker says we should talk to the Iranians, if in the very least so that we can prove that they are obstructionist.
Talking to your enemies does not make you weak. Over extending your army and alienating your friends and allies makes you weak.
20 Win? Well, what exactly do you define as “winning”? If you define it as getting rid of Saddam, well, that’s done.
If you mean turn the country into some sort of carbon copy of America with funny clothes…ain’t gonna happen. If you mean, “repair the collateral damage from the invasion”, how about just giving the Iraqis (or whatever’s trying at the moment to pass as their government) a few billion and letting them figure out how to do it themselves? Right now we’re pouring billions into no-bid contracts to Halliburton et al, who steal most of it, getting paid to repair the sewers and instead hauling in a few Sanikans.
If you mean, take control of Iraq’s oil, screw that. How much better would it have been if we’d spent half a trillion dollars over the last three years on alternative energy projects?
So, what are we really likely to accomplish by keeping our troops there? One thing for sure–there’ll be more of them killed.
Like they said about Nixon: “Only Nixon could go to China”.
“Only Bush can go to Iran”. Seriously Bush should try it out. Go to Iran in person or at least have turkish coffee with the Iranian president on the floor of the UN building in New York City.
Great things may come if Bush actually had a vision and not just a creative marketing department of endless spin.
@11
I don’t think that there is anything wrong with opening dialogue with Iran…I believe we already have channels open in Syria. What does not serve anyones interest is legitimating Ahmedinjad(sp) by engaging him directly. I felt the same way about the terrorist Yasser Arrafat(sp) He simply is not worthy of it. I am also skeptical about the “diplomatic” successes because they usually involve some terrible quid pro quo like light water nuclear plants in N.Korea to stop nuclear weapons programs..I should expand my feelings about what is happening in Iraq. We have not let our forces act/operate as they are trained too. We have asked them to be police forces. The “new” plan is with Iraq in the lead, supported by the US. The ROE’s have changed.
IF this new plan fails? That’s it. Game over. The Iraqi people are incapable of grasping the gift/opportunity that has been offered to them. Immediate pull back of troops to Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc. Maintain air dominance and watch them go at it.;….I pray this is not the outcome.
http://blog.seattletimes.nwsou.....idpostman/
Way to go Sen. Murray. Dems are already falling apart and breaking their promises. Starting with taking the day off for college football, now voting to keep the vast majority of earmarks out of the public eye. Go get em Dems!!!! Your hypocrisy is almost as bad as Goldy being a “Cheap Labor Liberal”.
I bought more oil stock today! I’m gonna be a rich fucking bunny when Bush bombs Iran, Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz, and oil shoots above $150 a barrel! Hey, even rabbits have to make a living, and I just go with the flow. Working doesn’t pay, so I’m a capitalist bunny, making my bones off the misery of Hummer drivers like Redneck. Keep driving that Hummer, welsher! I’ll take your money if you don’t want it! If you need another kind of Hummer, call 1-800-SUCK-ROG.
Rightwrong stuff @ 1OK, here is your post in full. Hope you have your hard hat on. I generally choose to swear and piss of you WingNuts but this WingNuttery deserves a cogent answer. Cuz that will piss you off even more.
Right Stuff says:
“Well, there you go again”…..
The president receives massive critisism for “stay the course”, so what does he do? He listens to the American people, puts fresh faces in place to look at the war, consults with congress and comes up with a new plan. Of course, he is now attacked for his new plan…..
What a bunch of hypocrites. If anyone here believes we have lost. If Schummer, Hagel, Biden, Obama et al believe we have lost, then they are duty bound to put forth legislation to cut off funding for the war and force the president to withdraw the troops immeditely. IF THEY DON’T DO THIS then obviously they are playing politics…Are hypocrits and hopefully will be voted from office.
I have read both Biden’s and Hagel’s interchanges with Sec Rice. Guess what….more of the same…..critisism and complaining, without any alternative….
If what we were doing wasn’t working…….And what is proposed isn’t going to work…..Why hasn’t there been one presidential hopeful/senior dem congressman to come forward and offer helpful solutions?
Becuase they don’t have any, could care less about our troops or what happens to the US if we pull out of Iraq, and are just fine playing politics with troop lives.
(HARD HAT ON, LET’S HAVE IT)
01/12/2007 at 12:44 pm
Your line: ““Well, there you go again”…..
The president receives massive critisism for “stay the course”, so what does he do? He listens to the American people, puts fresh faces in place to look at the war, consults with congress and comes up with a new plan.”
My response: Well not really. There YOU go again. Blindly following and listening to the rantings of a seriously misguided POTUS. He did not listen. He did not come up with a new plan. He fired everyone who disagreed with him, replaced them with yes-men and, essentially, put lipstick on the same pig. His consulting was a sham. And he increased troop levels in a further effort to propogate HIS war.
Your statement: “What a bunch of hypocrites. If anyone here believes we have lost.”
If I understood what you are saying here, I would answer. You are angry and your lack of a cohesive argument is evident. That is what happens when you are wrong.
Your statement: “If Schummer, Hagel, Biden, Obama et al believe we have lost, then they are duty bound to put forth legislation to cut off funding for the war and force the president to withdraw the troops immeditely. IF THEY DON’T DO THIS then obviously they are playing politics…Are hypocrits and hopefully will be voted from office.”
My response: Actually, there is some question as to whether or not congress can cut funding. If they were to do that other qustions arise. Is there money to bring the troops home, to continue to feed and care for their basic needs, ammunition and weapons not withstanding?
The politics being played here is a lame duck POTUS ignoring all sage advice, ignoring the will of the American people and ignoring the majority of governments worldwide. Don’t worry, your POTUS has insured that your party will be voted from office. He is the only lying hypocrit we need to worry about.
Your statment: “I have read both Biden’s and Hagel’s interchanges with Sec Rice. Guess what….more of the same…..critisism and complaining, without any alternative….
If what we were doing wasn’t working…….And what is proposed isn’t going to work…..Why hasn’t there been one presidential hopeful/senior dem congressman to come forward and offer helpful solutions?
Becuase they don’t have any, could care less about our troops or what happens to the US if we pull out of Iraq, and are just fine playing politics with troop lives.
(HARD HAT ON, LET’S HAVE IT)”
My response: This is Bush’s war. It is not for others to offer a suggestion or a plan. He dug this canyon on his own. Again, against the advice of everyone. If a Democrat or recently converted Republican were to make a suggestion, the adminstration would attack the suggestion and the focus would be removed from the problem, which is that Bush has gone off the cliff.
Bush is playing with the soldiers lives. The majority of this country wants them back home and safe, this includes politicians from both sides of the isle. Nothing is going to happen to the US if we pull out except the saving of American lives.
Personal note:
What a fucking moron you are. Let these folks work out their own problems. Oil will never stop flowing from the middle east. They need to sell it. If they don’t, their economy goes bust. There are cooler heads in the region. They are familiar with the customs and culture. Democracy is never going to work in the region. Theirs is a faith based government. We can’t change thousands of years of history. The same as they can’t change ours.
Grow up. Learn something. Enlist if you believe so strongly. I still have contacts and would be willing to make calls on your behalf to have transfered to the theater of operations as soon as you complete basic training. You might want to volunteer at sign up for AIT. You are going to need it when you get to Iraq.
What I’d like to know is how Mark’s “invisible hand” — when it’s not busy beating him off — puts more oil in the ground, or moves it from the Persian Gulf (where 2/3rds of the world’s reserves are located) to somewhere else.
http://washingtontimes.com/nat.....-2734r.htm
Federal Min. Speaker Pelosi’s own district is exempt from the new Federal Min. Wage? Wow, looks like Goldy has even more company in his “Cheap Labor Liberal” club.
The Iranians will never be allowed to shut down the straight. The world community won’t stand for it, we won’t let them.
But it does beg the question with respect to mid east oil.
19
I know it is difficult for you, asshole, but stay on topic.
What a fucktard!
Fireman is just another of MTR’s many monikers.
http://today.reuters.com/news/.....038;rpc=23
Goldy,
Are you going to advocate that shareholders Sue Apple because of this Stock option deal? Sounds a allot like Mike! McGavick.
@14
Fine. I disagree with you on the Iranian president. I think he is a nutbar don’t get me wrong but there is significant power talking to him directly. Whatever happened to all the talk about how the Iranian people are ready to over throw their government? Bush making a good faith effort to talk with him and having the Iranian president spit back in his face would do wonders for the world. It would show the Iranian public that their president is a nutbar, as well as the rest of the world. And it might actually move things forward rather than strengthen these silly regimes who consolidate power under all the military posturing.
And you guys keeping talking about the end game. But like Kerry said to Rice, what is the metric for failure? Rice wouldn’t offer that. What in your mind is a incontrovertible measure of failure for the “new” plan? That is mostly what we are asking Bush. In other contexts it is called an exit strategy. And more importantly it provides us something that is clear to communicate to the powers that be in Iraq. But all this wishy washy muddling around and pretending you have an exit strategy does no one any good. We have another word for that as well. It is called “quagmire”. So I ask what is your plan or at least measure of clear failure. Hint, it is ok to think differently than the presidential spin masters. You do have a mind of your own don’t you? Or am I simply feeding a troll?
RS at 1, etc.
My plan is irrelevent, because they were all ignored by the President when they had a realistic chance of success. Now the situation is so screwed up, I believe it is beyond any solution our military can offer. Our military is not assisting in the re-building of Iraq, it is only serving as targets in a Civil War, with each side trying to use our troops as a shield behind which they will launch attacks against the other (or us), as it most benefits them.
My plan was:
(1) Jan. 2003: Continue to contain Saddam in place, isoloate him with continued sanctions, work to get better enforcement of the embargo and oil-for-food programs. Instead, Bush invaded Iraq.
(2) Mar. 2003: Take a hint from Daddy’s playbook, and don’t go to war without broad support from the regional powers. When Saddam and Al Quida tries to turn it into a Muslim vs. Christian conflict, instead have them find that they are fighting mostly other Muslims. Make sure Muslim troops (Saudi, Kuwaiti, Egyptian) have the most contact with Iraqi civilians. If those nations won’t get involved, we shouldn’t either. Instead, Bush went to war with only nominal support from Kuwait. Turkey, Saudi-Arabia, Eygpt, Jordan, etc. all abstained.
(3) The biggest problem in Iraq isn’t defeating the Army, it comes afterwards, when every young unemployed Muslim man is tempted to come to Iraq to fight the “invaders” and achieve martyrdom. To avoid this, and the problems the British faced in Iraq a half-century ago, we need to leave quickly after defeating the Iraqi army – within 90 days. To do that you need a government-in-exile in place which can be installed quickly. Don’t invade until you are prepared for how you are going to govern the country afterwards. Don’t expect to be greeted with flowers thrown at the feet of your soldiers. Expect a civil war between religious/tribal factions which hate each other, and be prepared to deal with it before you invade. Instead, Bush invaded with no post-war plan (Rumsfield even threatened to fire the next general who asked what the post-war plan was).
(4) After defeating the Iraqi army, make it your friend. Use the method the British used to keep their empire largly intact for two centuries. Keep units in place and organized, co-op their officers so that they are on your side. Use lots of cash to buy their loyalty, let them know that continued cooperation is required to receive continued cash payments. Don’t disband the army, because nothing is quite so dangerous as having millions of young men with firearms and explosives training (and knowledge of where the weapons/explosive caches are located) to be out of work and broke for a long period of time. Instead, Bush’s occupation authority disbanded the Iraqi army and police force as its first order of business.
(5) If you capture Saddam, get him out of the country as quickly as possible. Give him to the international war crimes tribunal, or give him to the Kuwaitis to try for kidnapping/murder of their civilians. Whatever you do, don’t keep in him Iraq for trial, where he can destabilize the country and become a martyr. Instead, Bush had a year-long show trial which degenerated into a farce and a botched execution.
I could go on, but what’s the point?
@1 Now that we’ve heard from the shrill right (you), let’s put on our thinking caps and try to look at the situation rationally.
It has been nearly 4 years since Bush invaded Iraq, a Third World country with a toy army, and it’s now clear that not only won’t he win this little war in less time than it took FDR and Truman to win World War 2, but we’re not even making progress: The violence is worse, not better; more, not fewer, Americans and Iraqis are dying; Iraq is a country wracked by factionalism and civil war, not a functioning democracy.
We’re fighting an urban guerilla war against people who are trying to throw a foreign invader out of their country. No foreign invader has ever won this kind of war. What reason is there to think it will be different this time? If 4 years and 3,000 American lives isn’t enough to convince us of that, then how many more American lives do we have to throw away to be convinced?
Let’s be clear about something — Iraq has nothing to do with the fight against terrorists. It’s a distracting military misadventure, and as long as it continues, it will continue to suck military manpower and other resources away from the real fight. We are losing ground in Afghanistan, the primary battlefield in the war against Al Qaeda, because the effort there is being bled white by the demands of the Iraq quagmire.
America is weaker, not stronger, because we are still in Iraq. Our military is exhausted and unable to defend us against other threats. There are no military resources available for the war against terror. Bush’s Iraq misadventure has driven away long-time allies, damaged our reputation internationally, and exposed our weaknesses. With Saddam dead and no WMDs, there is no mission, and no reason to still be there.
And Bush’s solution to this dilemma is to escalate the Iraq war (with too little, too late), and possibly enlarge the war to two more countries, both of whom have large armies? Some of us think that’s exactly the wrong response. In fact, it’s fucking insane! And so are the rightwing nuts who insist on reaching for a “victory” they can’t even define. Democrats aren’t proposing defeat; defeat is already here, and the only question is how to cut our losses and minimize the long-term damage to our interests from this ill-advised, bungled, and lost war.
@17 I have read previously about your service, and take what you have to say to heart.
I don’t believe myself a “moron” and have not served in the military.
I was too stupid as an 18 yr old to know any better,think for myself, and was raised by liberal, nearly communist parents.
I try not to lower the debate to name calling.
POTUS is our president. I didn’t vote for Gov Gregoire, but she is my gov.
This war (war on terror) is not the making of one man, but one that has been waged against our country. I can’t say in any stronger words how grateful me and my family are for the men and women in uniform. Thank You for your sacrifices and those your family has had to make…
If our country is in trouble in Iraq, I would hope we all would offer whatever ideas we had to the debate, to move us towards eventually leaving the theatre. I especially hold all senators and congressman accountable for this.
@2 And here we have another screecher from the shrill right … Goldy is too old for military service, Jack. They wouldn’t take him even if he tried to enlist. So, there’s no need for him to go to Canada. But let’s examine the premise of your one-liner. Goldy is a liberal, and liberals didn’t start this war — conservatives did. Goldy didn’t fuck it up, either — conservatives did. He doesn’t believe in your fucked up war, and has never supported it. So why should HE go to Iraq to fight it for you, and maybe lose HIS life there — especially when we don’t see conservatives enlisting to fight their own war? In other words, why should we liberals volunteer to be cannon fodder for you conservative warmongers, so you can sit on your fat asses in warm living rooms? You guys even refuse to pay taxes for your fucked up war, for Chrissakes — and you expect Goldy to DIE for you? Go fuck yourself … and pet your armadillo. What we need in this country is Hague-style trials for fucks like you (which is more than any of the thousands of innocents you assholes have killed ever got).
@2 (continued) P.S., I’m not asking anyone to hang you conservative pigfuckers; I’ll be satisfied with life sentences.
27
Seriously, there is no sense in anyone putting out ideas. This POTUS has shown a complete lack of regard for advice that does not fit his plan.
When the next election cycle begins in earnest, I am sure the candidates will have to put forth a concrete plan in order to get elected. Until then, this is Bush’s war. No one elses.
The days of frightening the public with the words “terrorist and terrorism” are over. That horse was beat to death by this Administration. The lesson from Nov.7 clearly has not sunk in.
@4 “if they cross into Iraq”
Is this a problem? Has it happened? I don’t think chasing “Iranian and Syrian forces back across their borders” is what Bush has in mind. I’m pretty sure what he means is we’re going to chase insurgents who retreat into Syria or Iran into those countries. The governments of Syria and Iran would, of course, treat this as an act of war. Then we will be at war with those countries, and engaged with their military forces, whether we want to or not and regardless of whether Bush intended that result. This is madness.
At no time has Bush and the GOP leadership been willing to go “all the way.” What makes you think they will now? Let’s play “what if.” What if we chase insurgents into Syria and Iran — and crash into those countries’ military forces? What if Syria and Iran declare war against the US? Then what? Will Bush use conscription to get the men he needs to fight a much bigger war? Will he raise taxes to pay for a much more expensive war? Will he impose gasoline rationing, and restrict civilian driving? Will he freeze wages and prices? Will he levy war-profits taxes against defense contractors? None of the above. There will never be an “all out” effort, or even half-measures, under this administration. They’ll pretend there’s no war going on and promote “business as usual”! Bush’s response to a much bigger war in the Mideast will be, “Y’all go shopping at the mall now, y’hear?”
Furthermore, you are deluding yourself to think a president who couldn’t win a little war can win a big war.
@26
“It has been nearly 4 years since Bush invaded Iraq, a Third World country with a toy army, and it’s now clear that not only won’t he win this little war in less time than it took FDR and Truman to win World War 2, but we’re not even making progress: The violence is worse, not better; more, not fewer, Americans and Iraqis are dying; Iraq is a country wracked by factionalism and civil war, not a functioning democracy”
Different wars different times. I’m sure we could have won this war in 2 weeks if we had carpet bombed the all the cities and entire population into dust, as we did in the european theatre in WWII. Instead, we chose to pursue a path which limited civilian casualties.
“We’re fighting an urban guerilla war against people who are trying to throw a foreign invader out of their country. No foreign invader has ever won this kind of war. What reason is there to think it will be different this time? If 4 years and 3,000 American lives isn’t enough to convince us of that, then how many more American lives do we have to throw away to be convinced?”
There is more violence Iraqi v Iraqi than Iraqi v American forces. The civilians who are not part of militias or gangs do not want the US to leave. Every life, American, Iraqi is important. It is becuase of this that we cannot leave the situation as is.
“America is weaker, not stronger, because we are still in Iraq. Our military is exhausted and unable to defend us against other threats. There are no military resources available for the war against terror. Bush’s Iraq misadventure has driven away long-time allies, damaged our reputation internationally, and exposed our weaknesses. With Saddam dead and no WMDs, there is no mission, and no reason to still be there.”
The strength of our military is surely depleted. But that is not exclusive to the current president. I do think that we should have been expanding the military and intelligence services long before 9/11 2001. As for long time allies we have driven away. No, not really. As soon as they need us ( they will) we will be there. They still have their hands out taking our $$. I don’t think our reputation as the worlds dominant power will ever be “good”, and the UN has shown itself to be incapable of decisive leadership or action.
@7 Spare us the Bushspeak. It isn’t even catchy — it doesn’t resonate, it clangs. Solution? The solution is obvious. When you’ve made a bad investment, you stop putting money in it. When a company is going bankrupt, you fire the CEO and get a new one. Bush has spent the last 4 years proving he can’t run this show. It’s time for Congress to take charge, cut off the money, rescind the military authorization, and bring the troops home.
@10 We don’t have a plan to win in Iraq — but more importantly, neither does Bush, or you. You’re imagining things if you think we will ever be able to quell the insurgency or dictate terms to the insurgents. You incompetent, ignorant, rightwing nitwits have already lost this war. We’re merely facing up to that fact, and trying to cut our losses and keep you wingnut idiots from squandering more American lives.
The only way to “win” in this mess is to use weapons of mass distruction (i.e. nukes) to kill a bunch of people. Somehow, I don’t think the US population will buy into that one.
What the heck? Saddam is dead. That’s something, at least. Bush got what his dad wanted. Time to close down the show.
@33 at least you offer your solution
AS for the bush speak, that was an attempt at humor…in response to 5
@11 Of course Right Stuff is dishonest — all wingnuts are. No, you can’t have a rational debate with these self-deluded liars. How is that possible, when they refuse to acknowledge obvious facts, and invent bullshit to bolster their arguments? They’re not arguing in good faith. Their position is, “my way, or the highway.” That has never changed, and never will. The only thing to do with these fuckers is vote them out of office.
Bush adopts John Kerry’s war plan two years to late, and how does the country respond:
January 12, 2007
Just 35% of Americans now approve of the way that George W. Bush is performing his role as President. That’s down sharply in recent days and is the lowest level of Approval ever measured by Rasmussen Reports. Sixty-one percent (61%) disapprove of his performance.
Boy oh boy does it suck to be conservative now.
@34 I have outlined in previos threads my views on what winning means.
Our president has oulined the strategy for the USA.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/info.....v2005.html
@34 I have outlined in previos threads my views on what winning means.
Our president has oulined the strategy for the USA.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/info.....v2005.html
@14 “The Iraqi people are incapable of grasping the gift/opportunity that has been offered to them.”
What gift? Your hubris is incredible. They never asked for anything from us, nor did we “offer” it — we imposed it on them. There is no “opportunity” in chaos and civil war — only death. You are incapable of understanding the Iraqi people. For one thing, there is no such thing as “the Iraqi people” — there are Kurds, Shiites, and Sunnis in a patch of land that British colonialists drew a pencil line around and called “Iraq.” There is not, and never has been, an Iraqi nation or Iraqi people — only three belligerent tribes incapable of coexisting without forcible supervision. Bush leaped into a cesspool, and all along, wingnut fools like you have demanded that we swim in it with you.
We declined your offer, and continue to decline it.
@37 you are wrong about me
Your characterization of me is flat out incorrect. Does it make me a liar just becuase I disagree with you, Let me ask you, why do you think I read and post here?
just because – (typing to fast)
Roger Rabbit says: “@2 And here we have another screecher from the shrill right … Goldy is too old for military service, Jack. They wouldn’t take him even if he tried to enlist. So, there’s no need for him to go to Canada……fuck..fucked up….warmongers..fat asses..Go fuck yourself…….fucks like you….”
I really meant ALL libs……..You still here?
Thanks for the personal attacks and crude remarks. Very classy of you to do so.
BTW: What code is on YOUR DD214?
@19 Your link is no good, but don’t bother fixing it — the “Moonie” cult leader’s propaganda sheet isn’t authority for anything, and nobody pays any attention to it except kool-aid drinkers like you. It’s easy for YOU to snipe at raising the minimum wage while YOU live comfortably on your UNION wages.
@24
My opinion about the end game? If this current plan to move more troops into baghadad and anbar doesn’t work. If the US forces backing up the Iraqi’s can’t decisively quell the violence. If the Iraqi people don’t take responsibility right now for their freedom…Pull the plug on major forces in Iraq. Maintain air supremency, no fly zone, and withdraw our forces.
Chuck Hagel scares me as a potential presidential candidate for the Republicans. Unlike McCain’s unwarranted and self-promoted reputation as a maverick, Hagel actually is a maverick (for a Republican). He seems to have integrity, intelligence, and a decent grasp of foreign affairs. If a Democratic partisan like me likes the guy, then I think he would be a formidable opponent for any Democrat to knock off. Of course, because the Bushites perceive him as disloyal, I’m sure they would engage in endless dirty tricks to ensure that he could never get the Republican nomination. Maybe he should consider switching parties so that he can follow his principles without repercussion. Maybe we could trade Joe Lieberman for Chuck Hagel.
@41 I disagree. ( of course ) We left the shia to be slaughtered after GW1. They have alays desired freedom from Saddam. The Kurds in the north have always wanted an independent state. We took out Saddam. It was a MAJOR miscalculation by the pentagon and admin to think that flowers and parades would follow. All of those Iraqi’s, going to the polling place, getting their fingers dyed purple, tells me that the people of Iraq desire freedom.
The did that under threat of violence. that is desire.
@20 Right Stuff says: The Iranians will never be allowed to shut down the straight. The world community won’t stand for it, we won’t let them. But it does beg the question with respect to mid east oil. 01/12/2007 at 2:00 pm
The Iranians don’t have to shut down the Strait. All they have to do is sink one supertanker, which is easy to do with missiles already in their possession. Then the insurance companies will shut down the Strait for them. How many owners of billion-dollar supertankers will risk their ships, knowing they will be targeted, if they can’t get insurance? You could count them on the fingers and toes of a quadruple amputee. For a rough idea of what we could get ourselves into, read this: http://tinyurl.com/3l78q
I can’t decipher what you mean by “But it does beg the question with respect to mid east oil.” There is no alternative to mid east oil. The Persian Gulf has two-thirds of the world’s remaining oil. World demand can’t possibly be met from sources outside the Persian Gulf. The U.S. can’t pump its way to oil independence; drilling more holes doesn’t mean there’s oil down there. Let’s review a few key oil facts:
World consumption = 31 billion bbls per year
US consumption = 7 billion bbls per year
World reserves = 900 billion bbls
Lifespan of known reserves = less than 30 years
ANWR reserves = 6 to 11 billion bbls
Development time for ANWR = not less than 10 years
ANWR would meet US consumption for 1 to 1 1/2 years, or world consumption for 3 months
This is a pretty grim picture. The most promising US oilfields are in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico provinces. The largest U.S. find to date in the Gulf is 1 billion bbls. It takes U.S. consumers only 50 days to go through 1 billion bbls. of oil. So, to keep our economy going without mideast oil, we’d have to discover a new 1 billion bbl. field every two months, in perpetuity. It won’t happen, no matter how badly you want it to happen. The oil is where it is … in the Middle East. There is no other place on the planet that can produce enough oil to replace the Middle East. And most Middle East oil has to go through the Strait of Hormuz, which is only 21 miles wide, and within easy range of Iran’s Chinese-made supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, which can be launched from the surrounding mountains and reach the shipping lanes in mere seconds. Fully 25% of the world’s daily oil production has to pass through the Strait. Now — you were saying something about middle east oil? What, exactly, is your point?
Does anyone besides me think that the “union fireman” is neither “union” nor a fireman.
Sounds like a troll to me.
@49 my point is that we do have alternatives right now that we could be exploiting. There are currently ~4billion bbls in the north slope. Last I checked, we have been pumping from the north slope for over 20 years and ~total of 14Billion bbls. Do we stop exploring and ingnore known reserves?
@48 Saddam slaughtered the Shiites to quell an uprising. The Shia miscalculated; they either believed Saddam had been rendered impotent, or the U.S. would protect them; they were wrong on both counts.
I am correct about the fundamental nature of Iraq. The British drew lines on a map and called it “Iraq” for their own convenience. They threw together three hostile ethnic groups with tribal mentalities. The Sunni minority, led by Saddam, subjugated the Shiite majority; meanwhile, the Kurds fought both the Turks and the Sunnis in a still-unrequited quest for independence. The Kurds, by the way, are not nice guys and the U.S. has always opposed the Kurdish independence movement. With Saddam out of the way, the Shiites are trying to take over the country — and take revenge on their Sunni ex-oppressors. As for Iraqi democracy, here is how it works:
Iraqi to mullah: Who does Allah want me to vote for?
Mullah: Allah wants you to vote for me.
Iraqi: Okay.
In other words, Iraq has no democratic tradition or experience. The only social institution capable of holding that society together is the religion, and the only leaders capable of forging a political following are the religious leaders — who are hardly interested in “freedom” or “democracy.” Moreover, it is wrong (not to mention ethnocentric) to assume that our notions of “freedom” and “democracy” are best for that society, or even workable there. Cultural influences are simply too strong to be supplanted with alien political and social ideas in this manner. Whatever emerges in Iraq, it will be something consistent with, and that fits into, their political, social, and religious traditions. And it won’t be something familiar to us.
Hey “union fireman”-
While you were jerking off to FAUX News the Senate PASSED tougher “earmark” disclosure.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/002331.php
Nanny nanny boo boo, you piece of lying shit.
You’re as much a “union fireman” as I am.
The best solution here is one that nobody here has suggested. First, impeach Bush, then Cheney. I know that would make Pelosi president, and that worries even me. But I have no doubts that the current administration is clearly insane, and must be removed from power in order for any progress to be made.
Next, get our troops out of the way. But not necessarily back here. Roger was right @41, there is no such thing as an Iraqi people. The smart choice is to relocate to the Kurdish north, while doing our best to placate Turkey, who are utterly petrified of the concept of a Kurdish state (remember, the Turks have massacred ethnic minorites on their fringes before). Let the Shia and Sunni fight it out, while keeping a force in ‘Kurdistan’ to keep an eye on things. Let the fanatics and their financiers in Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia have their equivalent of the Thirty Years’ War. Eventually the people of the Muslim world will see the utter idiocy and hypocrisy of the people who claim to be men of God, and bring the fanatics to heel. It will be violent, messy, and possibly nuclear. Unfortunately, this is probably the only way to bring Islam out of its own Dark Age, and into a new Enlightenment.
We don’t have to like it. But then again, we don’t have to be all that involved, either. And our troops would be at least a little safer.
@49 Iran would commit suicide if your scenario were to play. The US is not the only country dependent on persian gulf oil. Western EU, Japan, and China might have something to say about it. Not to mention the other gulf states that would lose their economies…..No, Iran would likely cease to exsist if they start shooting missles at ships to halt oil exports.
56
“What-if” scenarios are difficult to predict in the Middle East. We do not get it much when it comes to the Middle East. We just don’t seem to grasp the mindset there. That is one reason we should act timidly with regard to Middle Eastern affairs, not brazenly. Military action in the Middle East is always a perilous proposition, no matter what the perceived provocation.
49 Roger, the facts you present prove one thing: God truly has a sense of irony.
From his contributions in a discussion a few days ago, I’m pretty well convinced UnionFireman is indeed a firefighter, or at least certainly an EMT.
Being a union member doesn’t necessarily imply being liberal/progressive on other issues–remember the “hard-hat” stereotype of the lunchbox-toting factory worker from the old days of Smokestack America.
@55 Why do you assume the Kurds will tolerate the presence of our troops?
re 10: More to the point is: Fuck You. We are shoving til you break. That’s the plan. You are the enemy.
Rujax,
Boy, you sure are a clever guy, with your witty accusations about me not being a Union Fireman. Wow, I marvel at your impressive use of the English language. But one question… Only 9 Dems chose to go against their party and vote for the tougher standards. True, Mr. Reid did admit DEFEAT (Get used to that term), but only after trying everything he could to get his loyal party followers to fall in lock step behind him. So how is having only 9 Dems cross over to the Republican side a case for the Dems keeping their promise to the American People? Are you using Gregoire math?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16593277/
Right Stuff said at 49: “Iran would commit suicide if your scenario were to play… No, Iran would likely cease to exsist if they start shooting missles at ships to halt oil exports.”
Sorry to dismiss your theory, but in Iran, rationality has little to do with it. Remember in 1979 when Iraq invaded Iran? We said then that “Iran has to release the U.S. hostages, because it needs U.S. weapons and spare parts for its aircraft”. But Iran refused all U.S. overtures, and only received weapons when it arranged for Western hostages to be seized in Lebanon. The current religious leadership of Iran has such a hatred of the U.S. that it would prefer to see Iran in rubble than to even appear to give in to the U.S.
Where does this hatred come from? From U.S. interference in its affairs, including the re-installation of the hated Shah of Iran, and working with his secret police. Most of the older Mullahs were tortured and imprisoned by them.
That’s the problem when you meddle in the affairs of another country. You become responsible for everything that happens there, for generations to come.
re 47: Do you know about Hagel’s ties to Diebold. That one’s a snake whose opinions drift with the wind.
@61 Lucy….
Now what did you really want to say? really?
Wow “union fireman”-
I am awestruck by your ability to smack me down and put the new progressive Democratic leadership in a bad light. Just like ANY progressive “union” member, tired of being railroaded by anti-worker, anti-union Republican political leadership would.
I particularly noted how you rushed to mention that the idea of transparency reagarding “earmarks” would have been a top, top, top, priority with Republican led Senate. Right after the Constitutional Amendments banning Gay Marriage and Abortion; outlawing Flag Burning and Mandating Christianity as the Official Religion of the United States.
I am just sooo sure that the earmark question would have come up RIGHT AFTER the debate about adding St. Ronnie to MT. Rushmore.
In other words…NEVER.
But of course, you KNEW that and couldn’t WAIT to point that out to a “fellow progressive and union supporter.”
As you were jacking of to Fox News or Glenn Beck or whatever you reinforce your dumbshit views with.
@51 Pretty much what I expected — the standard-issue wingnut talking point that “if only we drilled more in the USA, we would have no oil problems.” Saying it doesn’t make it true.
America has been explored and exploited for oil more intensively than any other real estate on earth, and for a longer time. Onshore domestic production has been declining for 30 years. Prudhoe Bay production peaked 18 years ago and is now half of what it used to be, and will be exhausted in about 10 years — about the same time ANWR came on line if development started today. ANWR would, at most, only replace current Prudhoe Bay production, although its production probably would be less, as ANWR holds only about 1/2 to 2/3rds as much oil as Prudhoe Bay did. North Slope production never supplied more than 10% of U.S. oil needs, and never will.
The fact is, the U.S. started out with only about 5% of the planet’s oil, and our oilfields were the first — and most heavily — exploited. Remaining U.S. reserves can’t possibly meet our oil needs. The most promising undeveloped oil provinces are in the deepwater Gulf, but even these are limited. The total untapped reserves in the Gulf probably exceed the North Slope; but you’re still talking about only an amount of oil equal to only a few years of U.S. consumption. And recovering ultradeep oceanic oil is so expensive that prices have to stay above $45 a barrel for these wells to be economically viable.
@51 The truth of the matter is that all oil industry experts agree the U.S. can’t drill its way to energy independence. Domestic reserves simply aren’t large enough to meet our long-term needs. The world as a whole probably has, at most, about a 50-year run left before the oil economy is over.
@63 “Sorry to dismiss your theory, but in Iran, rationality has little to do with it.”
Well to that point I totally agree!
like most theocracies and totalitarian regimes, those in power want to keep power. In the case of the mullahs in Iran, I think they could care less about Allah and the Iranian people. They want to hold onto power and spread their influence beyond their borders.
@51 Pretty much what I expected — the standard-issue wingnut talking point that “if only we drilled more in the USA, we would have no oil problems.” Saying it doesn’t make it true.
Not what I said. You are putting words in my mouth.
@49 my point is that we do have alternatives right now that we could be exploiting. There are currently ~4billion bbls in the north slope. Last I checked, we have been pumping from the north slope for over 20 years and ~total of 14Billion bbls. Do we stop exploring and ingnore known reserves?
I am not saying that drilling and exploring in AK,FL,CA,MS,LA etc is the whole answer. But I think it has to be part of the answer. We are not going to just overnight switch from a pretroleum based system to something else. There will be a time where we are bridging that space from old to new. I think it is responsible to look in ones own “backyard” before looking outward for sources. Gives us more control over our destiny.
@70 “drilling and exploring in AK,FL,CA,MS,LA”
What do you think we’ve been doing for the last 75 years? You talk as though there are unexploited onshore reserves in the U.S. There’s not. You also seem to think North Slope oil is being held back. Except for ANWR, that isn’t true either. North Slope production peaked in 1988 at 2 million bpd. and is currently half that; the U.S. consumes about 23 million bpd. So we’re getting around 4% of our needs from Alaska, and it will never be more than that, because by the time ANWR comes on line, Prudhoe Bay will be exhaust, and ANWR can do nothing more than replace Prudhoe production. U.S. reserves have dropped by almost half since 1970, from 39 billion bbls. then to 21 billion bbls. today. We consume over 7 billion bbls. a year; do the math.
Yeah rujax @ 50 & 53:
Of course. There is no such thing as a “union fireman.” First, the folks who go to put out fires call themselves “firefighters.” Second, there is an International Association of Fire Fighters which represents about 90% of the trade in the USA. It is a prominent union &, obviously, no member of that group would use the word “fireman,” even at gunpoint. Third, some folks in this trade belong to local negotiating groups that work with the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees but I don’t think any of them use the term “fireman.”
There is a different “fireman” trade formerly absorbed into the United Transportation Union. When steam engines disappeared, this job was sometimes a “featherbed” as the 2nd dude in any locomotive. It’s possible, but not likely, that some railroad still has a fireman in the cab of a diesel or electric locomotive. It’s also possible that some odd rail line is still running steam power.
I am a former firefighter (part-time, volunteer) & have always ignored the comments from this obvious shill. The lettuce cruncher may know whether this is just another sock-puppet for one of the wingnutz.
@70 It’s true there’s still about 4 billion bbls. left in the North Slope, but your assumption that this oil can be recovered faster is wrong. There are technical limitations on how fast oil can be pumped. Prudhoe production declined from 2 million bpd in 1988 to 1 million bpd in 2005 because that’s how it works, not because they wanted it to.
Rujax,
Come on now kiddo, you can do better than that. The fact is that the Republicans aren’t in control of the House or the Senate. You got your Majority, now you have to live up to the promises you made. The Dems ran on a platform of the First 100 Hours that included Earmark reform. Also, ironically, the vast MAJORITY of the Dems voted in favor of lighter rules when it comes to Earmarks and how they are identified. Only 9 (Including Ms. Cantwell and Mr. Obama) voted for the more stringent package. Once again, tell me how it is that this is keeping with the promise of open government?
As far as whether or not it would be a top priority, it has been a top priority for Presidential hopeful Sen. John McCain for years. You have your “Progressives”, We have ours.
As far as my Union goes, we are Bi-Partisan. 106 Republicans were endorsed by the IAFF (That is the International Association of FireFighters that I don’t belong to) for US House, Senate or State Governors. In the State of WA, 2 names should stick out on this blog, Congressman Dave Reichert and Congresswoman Cathy McMorris). That does not included the races in State houses. Firefighters learned long ago, that not all Republicans are bad (Frank LoBiondo from New Jersey was Chair of the Republican Labor Caucus) and not all Democrats are good (Especially in the WA State Legislature).
@71 and 73
understand that and I take it as GIVEN that we cannot sustain our own petroleum needs independently.
Here is an article on exploring and drilling.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00275.html
Recent results. Which would lead me to believe that we need to keep looking….but there are many obstacles to exploring, cost is one, regulations are another…
I think we are on the same page that
1. The US cannot independently rely on domestic oil production to meet demand.
2. There are untapped resources
3. At some point the USA, EU and the rest of the world will have to invest the resources to develop alternative sources of energy.
WHL,
Well, as a professional FIREMAN (i.e. not a volly or scab) I can, when referring to myself use the term Fireman (Sorry it’s that whole 1st amendment thing) But for the sake of argument, I googled the Term Seattle Fireman
http://www.google.com/search?q.....=firefox-a
You see, if it wasn’t an accepted term, or word describing males in my profession (not hobby) it wouldn’t have come up with so many hits.
But then I thought, well that isn’t enough, so let’s see if the City of Seattle recognizes the term. Hmmmmm
http://www.seattle.gov/council.....02a_pg.htm
http://www.seattle.gov/emergen.....istory.htm
But my Favorite is on Page 303 of the 2007/2008 proposed City of Seattle Budget. The Term? Firemen’s Pension.
WHL, you have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found wanting. Let the pros put out the fires, go back to your day job.
WHL
By the way
“First, the folks who go to put out fires call themselves “firefighters.”
Apparently you have never been to a City of New York Firehouse, or any Metropolitan Firehouse. Hell, the women I work with use terms like Firemanship, and fireman. Tell you what, when you can hack to the JOB for real, then we can talk.
Besides, being a Volunteer Fireman (Or in your terms firefighter) is taking away Union Jobs and hurting our economy. Or are you a Cheap Labor Liberal too?
Roger @60,
I think you forgot something. After the first Gulf War, when 41 let Saddam off the hook, we established the no-fly zones in the far north and south to try and protect the Kurds and Shi’ites, remember? Didn’t help much in the south, but it kept the Kurds safe, and the general perception of Americans is better there than in the rest of Iraq. As I stated earlier, the only problem with my scenario is that the Turks are violently opposed to a Kurdish state on their border, with the general belief that such a state would try to expand into historically Kurdish territory that is now part of Turkey. Not to mention Turkey’s historical xenophobic streak, which accounts for the Armenian Genocide in the 1910’s, if I remember correctly, as well as similar treatment of Kurds as well. Placating Turkey would probably be a lot of work, but doable in my opinion.
@72 I think Kevin Carns accounts for half of the wingnut screen names, assorted amateurs the other half.
As for steam locomotives, all major U.S. railroads retired them from revenue service by 1960, but a few were used for railfan excursions until the late ’60s. The Union Pacific has 2 steam locomotives based in Cheyenne, WY, that are used public relations and excursions; these are the only large mainline-type locomotives still operating in America. The rest are all smaller types that pull tourist trains, totaling a few dozen including 8 in Washington.
@74 “As far as whether or not it would be a top priority, it has been a top priority for Presidential hopeful Sen. John McCain for years. You have your “Progressives”, We have ours.”
Yeah and why don’t you tell us what the wingnut wing of the wingnut party does to the GOP’s “progressives?” Such as how conservatives savaged McCain in the 2000 primaries? Or would you like me to remind you?
@79
Why don’t you remind me, instead, of how your Party turned it’s back on the former VP nominee… What was his name?????? Oh yeah Lieberman (Firemen supported him too).
self-proclaimed union fireman:
All firefighters are professionals, as required by both State & Federal laws. As a volunteer & as a part-timer I went to the same training sessions as the full-timers. Volunteers are often paid, especially when toned out on State & Federal operations. Only super-ignorant fakes, such as yourself, make fun volunteers. Small, rural, self-sufficient departments often support the larger cities when jurisdictions overlap or the scene is out of hand or too large.
Your reply to me should indicate to most of the folks on this thread that you are neither union nor firefighter, just as your handle indicates–you’re a blowhard. The term “fireman” has been phasing out for decades and it still exists in old documents & feeble minds.
Your Google link is to a work of fiction on sale at Amazon. Nice try, wingnut–even your facts are fucked & you are as phony as the blown referral to a fairy tale. Your second link refers to a goddamned fucking poor quality poem, by Paula Gilovich, you sissy-assed pussy. And your third link is to Seattle’s “disaster history.”
You’re a fraud. I’ve left this alone for months because most readers here ignore your comments. You are stupid, inane & off-topic. But when you attempt to act as if you are the sock-puppet you’ve fabricated, then I’ll set your stupid-assed, phony fuckface on total flamethrower, you goldbrick blowhard. Now everybody on this website knows you’re just pretending to be some sort of person that most of us respect. I hope a few of them check out your cheap shot fake links to fantasyland.
Real firefighters despise True Comics heroes such as yourself.
We’ll never run out of oil. I thought for many years that we lived on a finite planet with finite resources, but when I really searched the literature on it, seems there was none.
Oil is infinite. You can take it from me because I write 3rd rate novels and am a quack, M.D.
WHL,
Damn, you are ignorant. The likelihood of you attending the same training sessions (as a volunteer) as I have are zero (I work for 1 of 3 100% Union Fire Departments in the State).
2. Volunteers and Part-Timers are not looked as the same. If you would read the Vertical Standards, WSHA and OSHA, you would realize there is a profound difference.
3 If you know so much about the IAFF, why don’t you inform everyone about the IAFF’s stance on “Professional Firemen (Or Firefighters if your are a wannabe) and Volunteers. The answer my friend is that the IAFF expressly instructs members not to become volunteers due to presumptive law.
4. If you were the same, you would be covered under the same Presumptive Diseases law, and Volunteers are not.
Finally, Volunteers are used by FPD’s (Fire Protection Districts), Counties and some smaller municipalities to provide the required amount of Fire Protection, without having to pay for it. By being a volunteer or a part-timer, you are eroding what my fellow “Professional” brothers and I work hard to accomplish.
I was a volunteer, and a part-timer in a rural FPD. I know the type of training that they get. I know the level of certifications required by the Cities and the State. I will never begrudge a brother, but I will also always fight for those of us who look at this as more than a hobby. Volunteers are not considered “Professional Firemen) because that is not their primary occupation and they are not paid directly for that job.
Remember, you attacked me. And by the way, why don’t you go to one of the 3 100% Union Fire Departments (Spokane, Tacoma and Seattle) and go to a fire station. Ask the members in blue (Not White Shirts) what they prefer to be called. We are a profession rich in tradition. Being a Fireman is one of those traditions.
Oh yeah, and we have been blocked by many liberals in the State legislature from improving our LEOFF system, WHL are you a part of LEOFF?
WHL @81
“The term “fireman” has been phasing out for decades and it still exists in old documents & feeble minds.”
Search the Budget for the Past 5 years for the City of Seattle. Those dudes up there have the Term FIREMAN in their 2007/2008 Budget. Is that an old document?
“union fireman”
I assume a few of the posters & readers here will check out your links.
Phony. Fake.
Oh. And just as an aside. I used to TEACH the classes on (blank, topic deleted, so you won’t be able to track me down, you four-flushing moper) for all departments in a lot of States. So I know (knew, 15 years ago) what types of training people get.
You’re as bogus as your links.
“Words’ Worth” Poetry Readings
Poets at the Culture, Arts, and Parks Committee of the Seattle City Council.
A Loose Connection I Should Have Fixed by Paula Gilovich
“I hope all that is pretty is left.
That a fireman stepping on ashed furniture”
My apologies Paula, you may be a wonderful poet & a truly delightful person, but this fucktard on a website is using your poetry as proof that “fireman” still means something in the 21st century.
Anyway . . . I’ve made my point to the readers & posters here at Goldy’s website. You’re a fake. Most of them already knew that. But this seals the deal for everyone, maybe even your fellow wingnutz. You are pathetic.
WHL,
Let me get this straight… You were (15 years ago) a Volunteer Firefighter and a Part-Time Paid firefighter that taught classes throughout several states to Professional Firemen (Firefighters) and I am the one that is a wannabe? Tell me WHL, in what world does that make sense?
Oh yeah, why don’t you look up IAFF Local 4427, Local 4414 what is their name? They are two IAFF Locals that were added to the IAFF in 2005 and 2004 (Respectively).
Finally, my little Union Buster, your terminology is not indicative of a fireman or even a firefighter for that matter. You have spewed only attacks and hatred, you have not responded using even any common terminology that you could get off of watching Rescue Me. You have attacked and bitched and cried. Look, just because you didn’t have what it takes to be a “Professional” fireman, don’t cry to me. Just because you have worked in the past to destroy what the IAFF and the WSCFF have worked hard to achieve, don’t let it discourage you. In fact, Goldy is starting a new club and it sounds like you qualify. It’s called the “Cheap Labor Liberals”. Goldy and Speaker Pelosi are already in it, now I think they should draft you. After all, you are bragging about taking union Jobs away and helping to destroy the middle class. Thanks Brother, I appreciate it.
re 87: You’re so droll.
re 87: It is my belief that “Union Fireman” is a droll(very, very droll) pun. The “Fireman” hates labor unions and sees them as a metaphorical “Fire” that he must QUENCH!!! Hence the droll moniker: “Union Fireman”!
You are so very, very droll. You are as real as my medical license or Elvis’ blackbelt!!
Hello not union, faux fireman @ 74 & 83:
[Shit: lucy’s gonna’ jump me for “faux,” in bold already]
First your links are phony. You are a fake. And then you try to run a scam on me. I’ve been there, done that & never saw you. Here are your dippity-do-dah statements, out of context:
Seattle, Spokane & Tacoma are represented by the International Association of Fire Fighters. I’m not going to waste my time, or the patience of the readers & posters here on Goldy’s site with all the quotations from pages 2 or 3 of the three union agreements . . . BUT, as any liberal knows, the following applies—-from the time you go to work at a union shop you have 30 days to join the union, sign your dues check-off & accept your representation by IAFF, Local 27, Seattle; IAFF, Local 29, Spokane; IAFF, Local 31, Tacoma. Yet somehow, magically, you are a “union fireman,” but according to your own statement, you don’t belong to the IAFF. By the way, I didn’t attack you–don’t even give a shit about you, except for your waste of pixels. I responded to the opinion by “rujax” that you look like a fraud. Rujax is right & you really made it clear here tonight. You’re smoked out, bitch, now go away.
Why don’t you abandon your sockpuppet as a union firefighter, then come back and post as union astronaut, union Medal of Honor winner, union SuperHero.
Or, best of all, log in as union Bu$hInc rethuglican wingnut. They do have a union, right, to keep the riff-raff unemployed???
You pathetic piece of shit.
Bush thinks not like a cheerleader but like a bully and it is about time for the Europeans to protest more vociferously because they will be a lot more vulnerable than we.
This man is dangerous. I’ve seen it all along and it isn’t what he’s going to do. While we sit debating, talking, ranting, being recklessly negligent, he’s making war as we speak.The build-up in the Gulf and our attack/invasion of an Iranian government office in Erbil are acts of war.
Bush – the bully – and “Kindasleazy” Rice will have their war. Because we dither and debate. It is unbelievable!
Union firefighter, union teacher. Who gives a shit as long as they put out the fire or can teach. Geeeesh.
WHL,
“As far as my Union goes, we are Bi-Partisan. 106 Republicans were endorsed by the IAFF (That is the International Association of FireFighters that I don’t belong to) for US House, Senate or State Governors.”
It’s called Sarcasm Jackass.
“By the way, I didn’t attack you”
Really? @72
“I am a former firefighter (part-time, volunteer) & have always ignored the comments from this obvious shill. The lettuce cruncher may know whether this is just another sock-puppet for one of the wingnutz.
Obvious Shill? Sock-Puppet? No name calling there.
“from the time you go to work at a union shop you have 30 days to join the union, sign your dues check-off & accept your representation by IAFF, Local 27, Seattle; IAFF, Local 29, Spokane; IAFF, Local 31, Tacoma.”
I wouldn’t expect a scab to know this, but you also pay an initiation fee. In my case it was equal to 1 months dues.
“You pathetic piece of shit.”
“You’re a fake. Most of them already knew that. But this seals the deal for everyone, maybe even your fellow wingnutz. You are pathetic.”
“You’re a fraud. I’ve left this alone for months because most readers here ignore your comments. You are stupid, inane & off-topic. But when you attempt to act as if you are the sock-puppet you’ve fabricated, then I’ll set your stupid-assed, phony fuckface on total flamethrower, you goldbrick blowhard. Now everybody on this website knows you’re just pretending to be some sort of person that most of us respect. I hope a few of them check out your cheap shot fake links to fantasyland.
Real firefighters despise True Comics heroes such as yourself.”
Oh yeah, I forgot, you never attacked me. Tell me, are you even capable of reading what you write?
This is why I am a Republican. Liberals like this, who are volunteers and take away Union Jobs, then criticize me, a dues paying Union member for my personal political beliefs. They use terms like Cheap Labor Conservative, then go to work at a non-union shop. They volunteer as Firemen (Or even firefighters), and take away jobs from the middle class. They wear their FDNY shirts, or those cheesey Big Dog “I Volunteer to Fight what you Fear” shirts.
WHL, volly’s take Union Jobs away. Like it or not, you are just some dude, that couldn’t pass the test. You may have been a brother at one time (Maybe a sister) but you have certainly spiraled out of control. You have done nothing but make baseless accusations and claims of being some training and firefighting guru. Never once have I stated anything of the sort.
My first post on this thread, was about the Dems breaking their promises(s) with the American people. Like a typical Liberal, you have only tried to change the subject instead of trying to argue the facts. Like a typical Liberal, you are having a difficult time formulating a decent argument without profanity. I am tired of your childish and moronic claims and your ignorance. Hell, at least the Rabbit can make a decent argument. It’s been fun kiddo, but I think I will head off to bed. Gotta get ready to go to work as a Professional Fireman (That being defined as a Dues Paying Union Fireman whose job it is to provide EMS and Fire Suppression to the area that I serve). Wish I could say that it has been a pleasure, but to be frank I would rather talk to a Rabbit, than a Union Busting Cheap Labor Liberal. See ya at the big one, till then I will be in the Beanery.
Pelosi criticizes first black female Sec. of State…for NOT having children? IS this for real?
…goodness, usually sons (and somtimes daughters) go into the military. It never even occurred to me to criticize Hillary Clinton for ANY stance she has ever taken on the war just because she doesn’t have a son. Pelosi is out of line.
@80 Unlike GOPers, Democrats don’t take orders from party leaders or obediently march in lock-step with party HQ’s orders. Democratic primary voters nominated Lamont because they liked his position on the Iraq war better than Leiberman’s. That’s how things work in our party.
@81 “Union fireman” should try imagining he’s a rabbit sometime, it’s more fun. http://tinyurl.com/e4trp
@82 “Michael Crichton says: We’ll never run out of oil. … Oil is infinite. 01/12/2007 at 6:46 pm
Well done, my boy, but unfortunately some wingnuts beat you to it. Yep, that’s right, go to worldnetdaily.com or some other internet nuthouse and treat yourself to the spectacle of wingnuts frothing over the “abiogenic oil” theory, which promises that oil is a renewable energy source.
“[Craig R.] Smith and co-author Jerome Corsi contend in ‘Black Gold Stranglehold’ that oil is not a product of decaying dinosaurs and prehistoric forests, but that oil is constantly being produced by the earth, far below the planet’s surface, and that it is brought to attainable depths by the centrifugal forces of the earth’s rotation.”
http://tinyurl.com/ujjjt
” … a Rush Limbaugh show … included a mention of the abiogenic oil theory. … The abiogenic oil hypothesis is a splendid example of … the immediate economic and policy consequences of the choice between scientific accuracy and pseudoscientific thinking. … The policy consequences are … obvious. If … it takes millions of years to produce oil … [t]here is … a finite amount of oil and gas, which we will eventually use up. At that time, we had better … have alternative energy sources …. If the abiogenic hypothesis is true, then ‘deep oil’ will satisfy our energy needs indefinitely …. The debate between these two theories is an indication of the dangers of Stupid Pride, especially its Creationist breed. The abiogenic hypothesis is very attractive to young-earth creationists and Intelligent Design advocates — biogenic oil requires millions of years of geologic time and is intersupportive with the strata-dating of fossils that mark evolutionary history. Abiogenic oil requires no such thing and can be seized on as another indication of an Earth ready-made for Man to consume. Creationists … seize on abiogenic oil for its philosophical attractiveness …. In the clip I mention, Mr. Limbaugh seems to think that lands currently desert have always been desert. This view comports well with the intuitive notion of a young Earth that underlies ID, and for him this means that oil found in such places supports the abiogenic hypothesis. While abiogenic oil is not yet a dead hypothesis, its commercial applicability is small and shows little potential; policymakers who join him in his proud declaration of ignorance will join the flinging of our dollars into dry holes.”
http://tinyurl.com/yy5m8f
“The concept of ‘oil peak’ is strictly linked to a view that sees oil as a finite resource. Several economists have never accepted this view, arguing that resource availability is determined by price and not by physical factors. Recently, others have been arguing a more extreme view: that oil is not even physically limited. According to some versions of the abiotic oil theory, oil is continuously created in the Earth’s mantle in such amounts that the very concept of ‘depletion’ is to be abandoned and, by consequence, that there will never be an ‘oil peak.’
The debate has become highly politicized ….”
http://tinyurl.com/tw2j2
Here’s a delightful example of wingnut exposition on the subject that argues Stalin’s geologists were smarter than ours:
“It appears that, unbeknownst to Westerners, there … [are] two competing theories concerning the origins of petroleum. One theory claims that oil is an organic ‘fossil fuel’ deposited in finite quantities near the planet’s surface. The other theory claims that oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth’s magma. One theory is backed by a massive body of research representing fifty years of intense scientific inquiry. The other theory is an unproven relic of the eighteenth century. One theory anticipates deep oil reserves, refillable oil fields, migratory oil systems, deep sources of generation, and the spontaneous venting of gas and oil. The other theory has a difficult time explaining any such documented phenomena. So which theory have we in the West, in our infinite wisdom, chosen to embrace? Why, the fundamentally absurd ‘Fossil Fuel’ theory, of course — the same theory that the ‘Peak Oil’ doomsday warnings are based on.”
http://tinyurl.com/6ahrv
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Never mind that ALL of the immense quantities of oil produced to date were found exactly where the “fossil fuel” theory of oil says they should be, and the only oil that came out of the test holes drilled by Thomas Gold, America’s leading proponent of abiogenic oil, was the lubricating oil from the drilling rig that got into the holes. If you’re a wingnut, “abiogenic oil” is too good to be true, so of course that makes it true! In one fell swoop, it blows away evolution and assures a limitless supply of cheap oil to fuel pickups and SUVs! Not only that, but global warm ing can be blamed on CO2 leaking up from the vast methane reservoirs buried in the earth’s mantle, which means we can’t do anything about it, which means we don’t have to. Yep, “abiogenic oil” has got it all! So, if you’re against “abiogenic oil,” you’re unpatriotic.
@84 “we have been blocked by many liberals in the State legislature from improving our LEOFF system”
Yeah, I remember that — the cops and firefighters wanted to plump up their pensions with a massive gift of taxpayer funds; even the diehard pro-union liberal Democrats couldn’t swallow that one.
@92 “Just your average US soldier says: Union firefighter, union teacher. Who gives a shit as long as they put out the fire or can teach. Geeeesh. 01/12/2007 at 9:54 pm”
Well, obviously they do, and it makes a difference to a teacher whether she’s paid $25,000 a year or $50,000 a year. According to your reasoning, we shouldn’t give a shit what soldiers are paid as long as they fight the wars we send them to. How does $90 a month grab you? That’s what Vietnam-era soldiers got for their time in boot camp.
@94 “Heydeho says: Pelosi criticizes first black female Sec. of State…for NOT having children? IS this for real? 01/13/2007 at 1:14 am”
Why not? You hayseeds criticized Darcy Burner for running for Congress instead of being a stay-at-home mom. That’s what women are for, right? Giving men sex, and raising kids. But then, having a kid by her rumored lover* would make quite a mess of things, wouldn’t it?
* If you’re curious who Rice’s “rumored lover” is, just for fun try googling “Rice – Bush affair” and see how many hits you get. Hey, I didn’t say the rumors are true — that’s why I called ’em “rumors” ….
Goldy, do you know what the Quds forces are?
Goldy,
You are now guilty of doing exactly what you blame the Republicans for — over and over again: Spreading FEAR.
Your post is fearmongering at its worst. I wouldn’t blame the righties for showing indignation at your 1) fear spreading and 2) complete and utter hypocrisy.
Fight the good fight — don’t take on the characteristics of the other side you (claim to) despise so much.
Thomas:
How Reckless of you. The only thing we have to FEAR is FEAR itself. Someone already said that?
Hypocrisy. I thought that was the Democratic mantra. Have Senator Cantwell for the earmark declaration while having Senator Murray against it.
heydeho: SoS Rice is a:
Distinguished woman
Distinguished pianist
Distinguished Russian scholar
Distinguished Stateswoman
Distinguished Stanford Provost
Has her PhD.
Nancy Pelosi is what?
Goldy: This headline shocked and amazed me. I looked all over this blog and there was nothing from the left referring to this. I guess Goldy is not fair and balanced!
Arab allies support U.S. effort in Iraq By Kenneth R. Bazinet
New York Daily News http://www.mercurynews.com/mld.....433630.htm
It’s not from a winger site as your rabid fan base would claim either.
Roger Rabbit says: @80 Unlike GOPers, Democrats don’t take orders from party leaders or obediently march in lock-step with party HQ’s orders.
Roger once again wrong again. Lamont was lock step with the Pelosi wing of your party. The Connecticut voters woke up and demonstrated loyalty to a good man!
Roger why did Harry Reid have the proverbial cow over the nine Democratic senators going aginst his watered down earmark bill? Why did our “illustrious” senator follow in lock-step with Reid now that she in in the “good seat”?
Maybe the reason the price of oil is coming down is due to the mild eastern US winter and backroom price negotiations for Arab support? You’ll never that printed by Goldy.
I wonder what other revelations are in store for us these next few days?
Union Fireman: You have a union card. There are some specific info on the card to prove yourself.
Rujax!: I clicked your post.
After losing a critical floor vote Thursday and scrambling in vain to reverse the decision, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., found the spirit of bipartisan compromise more to his liking Friday morning.
Reid offered an olive branch to Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., agreeing to embrace his amendment to a pending ethics and lobbying overhaul (S 1) with some modifications. DeMint’s amendment, which Democratic leaders tried but failed to kill on Thursday, would expand the definition of member earmarks that would be subject to new disclosure rules. . . .
Friday morning, a chastened Reid said, “Yesterday was a rather difficult day, as some days are. We tend to get in a hurry around here sometimes when we shouldn’t be. Personally, for the majority, we probably could have done a little better job.”
Done a little better job? Looks like it was all smoke and mirrors in the Senate. Now we’ll see how much “bacon” Murray brings to WA. It took a little more than 200 hours for Harry Reid to understand the real election outcome was more than Iraq!
Lieberman haters: Where was Joe on this issue? You bet. With the Republicans!
@1
Wrong. The president, this administration, and his generals have had nearly four years to realize that “staying the course” has been a tragically misguided path to ever-worsening conditions, that none of the goals they proposed to meet in 2003 have been achieved and that this just fundamentally is not working. And they haven’t done shit about it for all that time are are making big show about doing something now not because three-quarters of the country thinks we should end it, but only because enough Democrats were elected to put them on the hot seat.
This tiny pimple of a “surge” is just a distraction, some administration sleight-of-hand to try to put off a bit longer te inevitable push to withdraw. Withdraw we will, but probably not while president
CheneyBush holds the office.Most people in this country, a substantial majority, do not believe that the president tells the truth. A substantial majority wants us to get out of Iraq. A substantial majority opposes an increase in troop strenght in Iraq. A substantial majority wants the Democratic Congress to make significant changes in U.S. policy in Iraq.
But this is all happening, you should remember, while Idiot Boy and his handlers control the Executive Branch. So regarding Iraq, Congress can influence but not prescribe. Fine. They’ll do what they can, and the Boy Emperor will continue to pave the way for a Democratic president in 2008. By then, NO ONE will trust a Republican with anything.
Rujax!: Did you realize that Hillary was against the earmark identification legislation before she was for it?
How about Billion $$$ Byrd and his stance on earmarks? Was he against the earmark identification legislation before he was for it?
I appreciate the Reckless posting of how Democrats stall and delay the inevitable!
The flood of American liberals sneaking across the border into Canada Has intensified in the past week, sparking calls for increased patrols to stop the illegal immigration.
President Bush is prompting the exodus among Left leaning citizens who fear they’ll soon be required to hunt, pray and agree with Bill O’ Reilly.
Canadian border farmers say it’s not uncommon to see dozens of sociology professors, animal rights activists and Unitarians crossing their fields at night.
I went out to milk the cows the other day, and there was a Hollywood producer huddled in the barn,” said Manitoba farmer Red Greenfield, whose acreage borders North Dakota. The producer was cold, exhausted and hungry. He asked me if I could spare a latte and some free-range chicken. When I said I didn’t have any, he left. Didn’t even get a chance to show him my screenplay, eh?”
In an effort to stop the illegal aliens, Greenfield erected higher fences but the liberals scaled them. So he tried installing speakers that blare Rush Limbaugh across the fields.
@94
Actually, it was Barbra Boxer who criticized Sec of State Rice.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....htm?page=0
@98,
Actually Roger, the problems with the LEOFF 1 wasn’t that they were beefing it up. A few individuals found a way to screw the system. Rather than fixing the loophole, the State invented the 2nd Worst Pension system in the US for Firefighters and Police. We have made some strides, but right now there are about 1000 firefighters (Not sure how many cops) that are not eligible for Medicare. Due to yet another Loop hole, they never paid into Medicare. When these members went to their elected Union officials, the officials told them they had 30+ years to fix the “LEOFF 2” problem. Well it isn’t fixed yet, and guess what? Those people are getting ready to retire. Hey, thanks Libs, for screwing over 1000 firefighters after a long career of serving the public. And a special thanks to those older Union Leaders (Wanna bet that there weren’t that many republicans?) for insisting we wait. I could go on and on, but it would get boring. Needless to say, the State Legislature screwed us. Tell you what Roger, go to your Local Firehouse and ask the Firemen what they think about Helen Sommers.
@108,
Yes, my Union card has my IAFF number, but I am not to inclined to give that one out, but I do appreciate the back up.
Not real effective,” he said. The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn’t give milk.”
Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals Near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves.
A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions,” an Ontario border patrolman said. I found one carload without a drop of drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though.”
Not real effective,” he said. The liberals still got through, and Rush annoyed the cows so much they wouldn’t give milk.”
Officials are particularly concerned about smugglers who meet liberals Near the Canadian border, pack them into Volvo station wagons, drive them across the border and leave them to fend for themselves.
A lot of these people are not prepared for rugged conditions,” an Ontario border patrolman said. I found one carload without a drop of drinking water. They did have a nice little Napa Valley cabernet, though.”
When liberals are caught, they’re sent back across the border, often Wailing loudly that they fear retribution from conservatives. Rumors have been circulating about the Bush administration establishing re-education camps in which liberals will be forced to drink domestic beer and watch NASCAR.
In the days since the election, liberals have turned to sometimes ingenious ways of crossing the border.
Some have taken to posing as senior citizens on bus trips to buy cheap Canadian prescription drugs. After catching a half-dozen young vegans disguised in powdered wigs, Canadian immigration authorities began stopping buses and quizzing the supposed senior-citizen passengers.
If they can’t identify the accordion player on The Lawrence Welk Show, We get suspicious about their age,” an official said.
Canadian citizens have complained that the illegal immigrants are Creating an organic-broccoli shortage and renting all the good Susan Sarandon movies.
I feel sorry for American liberals, but the Canadian economy just can’t support them,” an Ottawa resident said. How many art-history majors does one country need?”
In an effort to ease tensions between the United States and Canada, Vice President Dick Cheney met with the Canadian ambassador and pledged that the administration would take steps to reassure liberals, a source close to Cheney said.
We’re going to have some Peter, Paul & Mary concerts. And we might put some endangered species on postage stamps. The president is determined to reach out.”
Now the real question can the US economy support their dreams on what the goverment will do for them in old age?
Wow the Democrats are in charge and gas prices are dropping everywhere. NOW The stock market is strong, Bush is in retreat, and the new Democrat War Plan is winning the war in Iraq.
This link is searchable by state/city, for the stations that have the lowest gas prices in your area…
http://www.seattlegasprices.com/
The markets had a very strong run in the fourth quarter, and we have spent the first week and a half consolidating those gains,” said Steven Goldman, chief market strategist at Weeden. He contends stocks remain “in a pretty good period,” as with 2006.
Light, sweet crude, which has already declined 15 percent in 2007, fell to its lowest level since May 2005, settling down $2.14 to $51.88 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. A pullback by investment funds and an unusually warm winter has unnerved some investors, suggesting that a period of enormous profits at energy companies might be nearing an end.
http://archives.seattletimes.n.....oil+prices
And the cookie continues to crumble…
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01.....ondent.htm
Tell me, what hour are we in for the First 100 hours?
Oh yeah, and about Sen. Clinton’s visit to Iraq
http://abcnews.go.com/Internat.....id=2792632
Didn’t she get it the first time?
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/crossed.asp
Think any pics of her and the troops will show their hands this time? Doubtful.
KLAKE: SHEEPISH TRUE BELIEVER IN RIGHT-WING LIES. BAAAAH. BAAAH…
Sad that Clinton’s statements to the media, remind me of that movie star of the Viet Nam era, what was her name, OH YEAH, Jane baby……
I hope the troops that escorted her, didn’t overhear.
But since she seems so sure about the “heartbreaking” she witnessed, she best get her butt back here and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. The dems are the majority, Pull the Money Plug, Kick Bush & Cheney Out, and Pelosi with all her Maternal Instincts, can Run this country.
THE WORDS OF ROD DREHER:
As President Bush marched the country to war with Iraq, even some voices on the Right warned that this was a fool’s errand. I dismissed them angrily. I thought them unpatriotic.
But almost four years later, I see that I was the fool.
In Iraq, this Republican President for whom I voted twice has shamed our country with weakness and incompetence, and the consequences of his failure will be far, far worse than anything Carter did.
The fraud, the mendacity, the utter haplessness of our government’s conduct of the Iraq war have been shattering to me.
It wasn’t supposed to turn out like this. Not under a Republican President.
I turn 40 next month — middle aged at last — a time of discovering limits, finitude. I expected that. But what I did not expect was to see the limits of finitude of American power revealed so painfully.
I did not expect Vietnam.
As I sat in my office last night watching President Bush deliver his big speech, I seethed over the waste, the folly, the stupidity of this war.
I had a heretical thought for a conservative – that I have got to teach my kids that they must never, ever take Presidents and Generals at their word – that their government will send them to kill and die for noble-sounding rot – that they have to question authority.
On the walk to the parking garage, it hit me. Hadn’t the hippies tried to tell my generation that? Why had we scorned them so blithely?
Will my children, too small now to understand Iraq, take me seriously when I tell them one day what powerful men, whom their father once believed in, did to this country? Heavy thoughts for someone who is still a conservative despite it all. It was a long drive home.
STICK THAT IN THAT YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT, BRAINDEAD, SYCOPHANTIC, TRAITOROUS, AUTHORITARIAN WORSHIPING WINGNUTS!
I am Republican – I lie, cheat and steal when I’m not being a family man (fat whore), a crying hypocrit or a racist. I don’t believe in pay taxes unless they benefit me in some way. Hail Hitler!
Kiroking @ 125
Fuck you!
‘Nuff said.
Reckless @ 106:
Two hearbeats from the Presidency, duly elected, Speaker of House.
Live with it, asshole!
We took your shit for six years. How do you like the taste of ours.
Flibertigibbet!!!!!!! Oil is infinite!!!!!!
whl,
first, let me reassure you that no one understands how frustrating John Craig Herman can be more than those of us in his family who must confront his problems daily.
For quite some time Craig kept his days occupied with regular postings on HA in the assumed identity of a former naval hero living an idyllic and exciting life on a sprawling plantation in Hawaii (an idea he formed from watching old reruns of an 80’s television program staring Tom Selleck). Sadly, in the fall of last year this identity began to fall apart under a constant barrage of challenge from other regular posters on HA with superior knowledge of naval operations. Slowly Craig’s sense of identity began to collapse under the onslaught and his sleep patterns, daily hygiene, and health declined in close order. Finally, with the disastrous collapse of his beloved GOP in the elections last fall, Craig fell into a psychotic depression that lasted for many weeks.
Now, only recently Craig’s personality has finally begun to re-integrate itself. In doing so, he seems to have primarily resolved his identity around a previously secondary personality, which in the past only emerged occasionally. This being another heroic figure, that of a firefighter – drawing upon his childhood fantasies of playing fireman (excuse me, firefighter), and perhaps also owing to his deep admiration for those many heroes who lost their lives on 9/11.
As I stated in my opening, those of his family members who give of ourselves to care for Craig know better than anyone how frustrating, and at times infuriating his insistence on recognizing his fantasies as real can be. To say nothing of his endless, bloviating of conservative radio talking points. But I implore you, for our sake if not for his, to resist the urge to puncture his fabricated identity. Quite frankly we regard his most recent re-emergence from catatonia as no small miracle. December brought no holiday for those of us tasked with the grinding routine of sponge bathing an overweight 57-year-old man with a propensity for physical violence. I know it’s asking a lot of you, but please consider overlooking Craig’s occasional factual lapses about firefighting. I’m terribly afraid that if he is once again confronted with the ponderous reality of his squalid life in a trailer in Algona, he may descend into a permanent vegetative state. We only want what is best for a man who after all, is terribly, terribly ill.
Best wishes,
Craig’s Mom
exerpt from http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16587347/
‘We need the Americans’
In Hurriyah, the convoy pulled up outside the Muheaman Mosque, a tan Sunni house of worship overlooking a dirt field with junked cars. Last month, militiamen from the Mahdi Army, the force of radical Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, killed several mosque workers. Now, an Iraqi army unit, with all Shiites, was stationed inside the mosque. The area, they said, was controlled by the Mahdi force.
Lt. Dan Futrell, 23, of Santa Clara, Calif., walked into the mosque, flanked by his comrades. Unarmed, bleary-eyed Iraqi soldiers greeted him and called for their commander, Maj. Saad Khalid Fetlawi, who wore a red beret.
Futrell asked him for 10 Iraqi soldiers to help search the targeted houses. Fetlawi immediately agreed and ordered his men to report for duty. As he waited, Fetlawi said he had heard that the United States was sending thousands of extra troops.
“This is good news. We have a weak government and a weak army. We need training, we need more equipment,” Fetlawi said. “We need the Americans to help us go forward. Iraqi army soldiers are not ready to do all this themselves. At the moment, 20,000 is a good number to help us to bring security.”
Then are you ready wait for it…the kicker
‘We’re chasing a ghost’
After nearly a half-hour, the soldiers had not unearthed a single weapon. Futrell asked Joey to see whether they were near Mahanara School, as the informant had told them. They weren’t. They were near Imam Ali School.
The houses they were meant to search were in another section of Hurriyah.
Some of the American soldiers were angry. They had wasted their time and put their lives at risk.
“Are we even in Hurriyah?” Mongol demanded.
“We’re chasing a ghost,” Hill said.
They returned to the mosque and asked Fetlawi for a map of Hurriyah.
“I have no map of the place. I came here two days ago,” he said.
Still, Fetlawi made a call and was able to find the correct school. He dispatched a pickup truck with his men to guide the U.S. soldiers.
Inside the Stryker, Lake fumed: “A debacle,” he declared.
“Same old bull. . . ,” Caldwell said, using an expletive.
[My point is why with all the Intelligence we went into this war
with why are we throwing a monkey wrench by not providing said Iraqi officers with correct updated maps.Why dont we improve the relation between our Us troops and the Iraqi soldier and build cohesion instead of sending more soldiers.
It all seems this war is being fought half assed. No one is to be a clear winner. We are not cooperating with this Iraqi but we will with that one etc. etc. Can’t trust anybody why the hell are we there. Give the country completely to the Shiites and Kurds and lets get the fuck back home.
We came we saw we conquered,(Vini,Vidi,Vici) so let them figure it out. This protecting minority sunnis is whats making this war a debacle. And there are no civilians over there.
Not after this much fighting and our intitial assault. The Iraqis are involved no matter what. They have a side they have chosen and they live with that consequence. Shiite, Kurd, Sunni, whatever. I hate that word in the media— “In Iraq today Civilians were blown up nearby a market.”
By who? answer. Other civilians dipshit news guy. So Bush its a civil war and I feel for our soldiers. They need to bug out and go home.
If you send 20,000 troops
Let it be the Fly boys and aviation units ’cause we all want to fly the hell out of Iraq ASAP. Screw an exit strategy, The shiites will back us up on our flight if we back them in the fight. And they have the upperhand. Simple Battle exit and we look cool for liberating Iraq from big bad Sunni Baathists and can go on to fight another day another way.]
Iraq story cont. So the Americans crossed the street and searched the two-story house. They examined a red trunk on the roof and dug through a pile of sand. No weapons. “I think it’s a dry hole,” Mongol said, with disappointment.
Inside the Stryker, as it headed back to the base, the soldiers of Apache Company wondered whether they had been given false information by their Iraqi army contact. “They know things we don’t,” Lake said, repeating what he had said on the way to Hurriyah.
“That’s why we’re still here. That’s why we will be here for years.”
I am a Democrat. The US is responsible for all the evil in the world. I will undermine the national security of our nation with each and every breath I take. I will demagogue Republicans on avoiding taxes while I avoid very taxes I urge for others. I will destroy every moral norm known to Western Civilization until there is not a single solid family unit left tin America. When our enemies behead my fellow citizens, I will publicly proclaim they deserved it. When they fly planes of innocents into sky scrapers, I will blame the victims. Like Marx, I will be awash in riches while persuading the unwashed masses that I am just like them. They will believe me too because I control the news that gets broadcast to them. They will believe anything I put in my media machine.
re 133: That would, strictly speaking, make you a leader in the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It would help you immensely if you could, when speaking out of both sides of your mouth, read the literature you are referring to and not some tract that Robert Viguerie stuck in your mailbox.
Cheers! Nit!
To LeftNut @ 128,
Obivously you are frustrated with your party, as many americans are.
Your response is typical of an angry, frustrated, been lied to voter.
Its ok, it will get better. I am sure Pelosi and crew will begin the impeachment proceedings, and cut the war funding any day now, so try and be patient.
In order to honor Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s message of peace and equality we should call our represetnatives to let them know that we could like to see the 2000 Millenium Goals met which includes combatting global poverty. According to the Borgen Project, only $19 billion is needed to feed the poor of the world for this year.