I found a “scooter” under my Fitzmas tree this morning, how about you?
A federal grand jury today indicted Vice President Cheney’s chief of staff, I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby, after a two-year investigation into the leak of a CIA agent’s identity but spared — at least for now –President Bush’s top political strategist, Karl Rove.
Libby was indicted on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements. The indictment charged that he gave misleading information to the grand jury, allegedly lying about information he discussed with three news reporters. It alleged that he committed perjury before the grand jury in March 2004 and that he also lied to FBI agents investigating the case.
Libby has resigned.
Holidays are often a bit anticlimactic, and I’m sure there are more than a few disappointed Democrats who had hoped for a Karl Rove Frogmarch doll. But according to reports, Rove is not in the clear yet, so keep your fingers crossed.
I’ll leave more thorough reporting and analysis to the MSM and national blogs. But please feel free to talk amongst yourselves.
Aaah, justice well done.
The key point will come in Fitzgerald’s press conference, when he announces that he’s going to empanel a new grand jury to continue connecting the dots. Not only Rove, but “Official A”.
Where’s the rest of the 22 indictments? I want to see “Official A” and “Official B” get fitted for pinstripe suits. Martha Stewart kept a bed warm for them.
With a name like Scooter, they are going to love him in prison.
Now he has a choice – give up Dick, or receive.
Wayne: I think he did this of his own volition, not at Dick Cheney’s orders. Subordinates have a way of getting beyond the bounds of rules for their bosses in the name of loyality… not that I like Dick Cheney or think Dick Cheney deserves defending.
This is just funny. You are excited and gleeful because Libby was indicted for making a false statement to the grand jury? This is lame at best. After 22 months, I would have expected more. This is just a face-saving indictment so the prosecutor can show something for all his time.
By the way, there is nothing illegal about the VP telling his chief of staff that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA. I’m betting it is in your universe, but that is just a big fantasy.
Janet S, you are such a tool…
Robert Novak is mentioned in only one paragraph of Fitz’s press release:
on or about July 10 or July 11, 2003, Libby spoke to a senior White House official (“Official A”) who advised Libby of a conversation Official A had earlier that week with columnist Robert Novak in which Wilson’s wife was discussed as a CIA employee involved in Wilson’s trip. Libby was advised by Official A that Novak would be writing a story about Wilson’s wife;
From other context, there can be little doubt that “Official A” is Cheney. The second grand jury will dig out a lot more of the rot that is the Dubya (mal)administration.
Ooops, my mind said R-O-V-E but my fingers tapped out C-H-E-N-E-Y.
Karl ratted out Libby, but Fitz is still working him for bigger fish. Like Big Dick and the one and only unindictable person in the country. The latter will be tough, since “I knew nothing about any of this” is so plausible coming from him.
Apparently the indictment has a line describing Libby’s Leak as endangering national security. That’s some fucked up shit. If this were happening in the Clinton Admin, people would be burning the White House down.
Read the indictment and weep liberal lunatics! No mention of Valerie Plame other than her status was “classified” not “covert” or “secret” Absolutely not a single mention in the 22 pages of any violation of the statue(s) you all were so sure White house officials violated. But non the less, enjoy your lump of coal for Fitzmas.
These types of investigations have a way of ballooning and morphing into other things. For example, how did an investigation into a failed Arkansas land deal result in the conviction of Webster Hubbell for falsifying his law firm time records, an investigation of whether Bill Clinton did or did not “have sex with that woman” and a whole bunch of other unrelated stuff? So we may not yet know where this will lead. It may be just the tip of the iceberg.
In any event, why shouldn’t we enjoy seeing these guys get a little comeupance?
Dumb ASSES…
Goldy screwed Sal 3 years ago, but rememebered and testified to screwing Sam….opps!… perjury.
An indictment is not a conviction.
By the way, where is the “stuff” about Plame?… oh yeah, she was outed by her greedy, hateful husband who got her on the cover of Vanity Fair, a book deal, a movie deal and a great big laugh all the way to the bank.
Dumb ASSES.
When are we going to discuss all the positive reasons anyone should re-crown Ron as King of Sims County?
hey,
I fthey are guilty they should be shot.
We are at war for christ skes
This investigation has only just begun. In the coming months, perhaps a year or two, we are going to know so much more.
Hell, if were really lucky, we’ll get a Democratic controlled House and articles of impeachment. And a transparent government again.
@5
“Wayne: I think he did this of his own volition, not at Dick Cheney’s orders.”
Of course you do. You also think D.B. Cooper is alive and well, Bigfoot exists, people get kidnapped by UFOs, Iraq had WMDs, Bush didn’ lie, global warming isn’t real, and humans didn’t evolve. What else can we expect from an ignorant fuck like you?
@6
Janet S. = apologist for perjury.
Comment by Roger Rabbit — 10/28/05 @ 11:24 am
Let me put my reply this way: Who is D.B. Cooper?
Reply to 9
Right-wing apologists for treason tried to burn Clinton for far less than leaking a CIA agent’s identity. Fucking hypocrites.
@112
“When are we going to discuss all the positive reasons anyone should re-crown Ron as King of Sims County?”
He’s not a psycho with a pathological temper who beats his own mother.
@13
“If they are guilty they should be shot.”
Now there’s an idea. Maybe the parents of our fallen soldiers should be given the right of first refusal to stand in the firing squad and pull the trigger.
@17
You’re not from around here, are you? Do a web search and find out.
Janet S @ 6
It is amazing how you form opinions about things you don’t even bother to actually understand. The indictment has five counts: 2 counts of false statement, 2 counts of perjury, 1 count of obstruction of justice. This is a matter of national security. Libby is basically a traitor to his country.
You and your nutjob friends are showing your true colors here.
Belltowner-9 ‘If this were happening in the Clinton Admin, people would be burning the White House down.’
I do not recall any fire at the WH when the Chinese got our satelite and nuclear weapon plans, all under the Clinton watch.
Now we have Marc Rich on Saddams payroll and it is too late to squeeze Bubba.
@13 I fthey are guilty they should be shot.
We are at war for christ skes
So you are saying that the war was caused by Novak’s story a year after the war started, but the real reason was that Libby lied about the Novak leak about a year after that?
So if we are now shooting the guilty, you might want to take a look at this:
Ray: First lady’s answers false in travel office probe, but no prosecution
October 18, 2000
Web posted at: 5:50 p.m. EDT (2150 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Independent Counsel Robert Ray’s final report on the White House travel office case found first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s testimony in the matter was “factually false,” but concluded there were no grounds to prosecute her.
The special prosecutor determined the first lady did play a role in the 1993 dismissal of the travel office’s staff, contrary to her testimony in the matter.
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/A.....el.office/
@ 22:
Well, gosh, do you think the fact that the Chinese leak didn’t involve members of the administration itself might have had something to do with the lack of any fire?
Michael,
There is a big difference between Hillary Travle Hijynx and out an undercover CIA agent.
Forget party lines, if he is guilty, he should be executed
Libby is stupid for several reasons.
1. For using “Scooter” as a nickname once a grown man.
2. Using Plame’s name in any conversations with reporters. Joe Wilson could be shown to have been lying on the important OpEd points without naming his wife.
3. Lying to the grand jury. Duh.
There is a big difference between Hillary Travle Hijynx and out an undercover CIA agent.
Forget party lines, if he is guilty, he should be executed
I’m still not following how Libby’s lie is responsible for the war, although the war was about 2 years old when Libby’s alleged lie happened.
Who said anything about his being responsible for the war?
We are at war and he exposed top secret information.
End of subject.
GOP = party of traitors, perjurers, and criminals
@26
You don’t get it — it’s not just Libby who’s “stupid” but the whole fucking Republican Party, and all their congressmen, senators, and elected and appointed officials.
One important point to not miss in the indictment involves the broader category of “classified information.” The MSM has almost exclusively reported on the case in terms of TItle 50, Section 421, which refers to the specific act of outing an undercover CIA agent, but the indictment also cites Title 18, Section 793, which refers to any classified information in general.
While it might be difficult to prove that White House officials knew of Valerie Plame’s undercover status, it is far less difficult to prove that Valerie Plame’s status as a CIA employee was classified information.
There is far more in this indictment than just perjury and obstruction of justice.
@28
“We are at war and he exposed top secret information.”
BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! POP!
(11 live rounds and 1 blank)
Rick Schaut-24
Too bad it was not illegal for Clinton to refuse getting custody of Osama Bin-Laden three times in the late 90’s.
Or, for bombing that pharmacutical plant as Monica was walking up the court steps to testify.
Having said that, Libby should roast. Hopefully the lies of Joe Wilson will get some good MSM coverage as well.
The dumb bunny butt seems to have forgotten the pants, socks and stolen documents of Sandth the Burglar.
We are at war and he exposed top secret information.
End of subject.
I think Fitzgerald would disagree with you. If he really believed that he would have indicted him for that.
OFFICIAL NOTICE –
Yesterday I posted a comment wondering why Ron Sims wouldn’t step up and submit to a lie detector test and then call on David Irons to do the same. Seemed like a great strategic move for someone behind in the polls. After reading SoundPolitics today you’ll understand why I have blown out the candle, climbed down from the tree and ended my hunger-strike/vigil for truth via polygraph.
Of course you’d be a fool to believe anything posted on any blog without any independent corroborating evidence. I suggest you Google “Ridgway polygraph”
The dumb bunny butt seems to have forgotten illegal dealings with Comm*unist governments by Waggin his willie and his pet Bore… you remember… illegal c*mmie campaign donations, sensitive info SOLD to thier c*ommie bosses…er, pals.
” think Fitzgerald would disagree with you. If he really believed that he would have indicted him for that.”
No, I don’t think he would.
In the Amrica of today, you prosecute child rapists for tax evasion and Murderers for Speeding
Roger @ 32
We always knew you shot blanks.
This is actually a solid indictment. Fitzgerald knows a crime was committed but cannot prove that anyone appreciated the fact that Plame was an undercover CIA agent. Indicting on those charges would have been a good deal for Libby. But the purjury, obstruction ect.. is a sure way to get the bad guy. After all, we all know they knew. Especially when they lied about it. I really appreciate the way Fitzgerald handled himself in this investigation. Had this been a Ken Star type of investigation we would have the Repugs claiming a “Vast Leftwing conspiracy”. Instead we get a stand up guy that does his job and does it well. Libby broke the law. Now he goes to trial. That’s how it works and I am glad it is working that way.
Libby is stupid for several reasons.
1. For using “Scooter” as a nickname once a grown man.-Comment by yearight— 10/28/05 @ 11:49 am
Kinda, sorta like a guy that goes by GOLDY????
Libby broke the law. Now he goes to trial. That’s how it works and I am glad it is working that way.
Unless your name is Hillary Clinton.
WASHINGTON (CNN) – Independent Counsel Robert Ray’s final report on the White House travel office case found first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton’s testimony in the matter was “factually false,” but concluded there were no grounds to prosecute her.
The special prosecutor determined the first lady did play a role in the 1993 dismissal of the travel office’s staff, contrary to her testimony in the matter.
Anyone who continues to support Bush does not support the troops or the Rule of Law.
You are unpatriotic and un-American.
@43
Hillary wasn’t prosecuted because the Special Counsel didn’t find anything prosecutable, dumbass.
42
Goldy isn’t the chief of staff to the Vice President of the United States, nor did he manipulate America into a war based on lies.
His real first name(Scooter’s)is Irving. The heavy in this story is named Irving for Christ’s sake! I love it! His nickname is Scooter and his real name is Irving!
Impeached disgraceful president vs indicted (not convicted) aide to Vice President.
Right.
You fruitcake fringies are always good for a chuckle.
Hillary wasn’t prosecuted because the Special Counsel didn’t find anything prosecutable, dumbass.
Do you mean other than “testimony in the matter [which] was “factually false”” and “[playing] a role in the 1993 dismissal of the travel office’s staff, contrary to her testimony in the matter”?
Libby’s crime is lying to a grand jury to conceal the guilt of the real perpetrators of treason, and that’s a VERY serious crime.
Libby was indicted not on 1 count, but on 5 counts. To take Fitzgerald’s baseball analogy a bit further, he didn’t throw a pitch at the opposing batter’s head — he threw pitches at 5 opposing batters’ heads. Any baseball pitcher who did that would not only be thrown out of the game, but would be banned from baseball for life, and probably prosecuted and jailed for assault by civil authorities as well, and sued for civil damages.
But Libby isn’t playing baseball. He compromised national security. He was a chief conspirator in a scheme to start a war on false premises. He is complicit in the deaths of 2,000 U.S. soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
He’s a traitor and war criminal, but as a practical matter, his perjury and obstruction of justice make it difficult or impossible to prove his treason and war crimes in a court of law, so if convicted by a jury he’ll only get a jail term and not the firing squad or noose he deserves.
Who says crime doesn’t pay?
And of course the ever so mature ‘lost in the fog’ demontrates his intellect and grace by making fun of his name… which of course is something for which he had no control.
ASS.
Please, please, please, keep focusing on this indictment ( you know… the one where the Prosecutor says Libby is innocent till proven guilty ..) – while President Bush names a new nominee to the Supreme Court.
Good Morning Justice Janice Rogers Brown – weren’t you just recently confirmed by the Senate for your current judicial post?
48
Hey Ass, you’re right, Clinton getting a blowjob under his Oval Office desk from an employee was disgraceful! Despite that (and other personal behavior transgressions), Clinton was a pretty good president. America and the world would be a lot better off if Georgie Porgy used his office time to get blowjobs under the desk instead of starting wars and looting the U.S. economy on behalf of his rich corporate pals. A pretty sad commentary on the party and president you wholeheartedly support without reservation. If you had an ounce of principle, you would be criticizing Clinton’s behavior and Bush’s policies, not just Clinton’s behavior. You are an unprincipled lout.
52
It takes an ass to support Janice Rogers Brown for the Supreme Court or ANY judicial post.
Who says crime doesn’t pay? -Comment by Roger Rabbit— 10/28/05 @ 12:43 pm
Certainly not lying Joe Wilson and his desk jockey, mom of twins wife enjoying their new found wealth and fame.
How exactly does one pop out twins as an super secret, deep in hiding, undercover agent?
Reply to 49
No, I mean that if she had committed an indictable crime, she would have been indicted, and the fact she wasn’t indicted proves the special prosecutor concluded she didn’t commit an indictable crime, you dumb shit.
ProudAss = apologist for treason, perjury, and obstruction of justice
You know, I wonder if that dippy broad Blanco of Louisiana will be charged with abuse of corpses?
ProudAss = apologist for treason, perjury, and obstruction of justice -Comment by Roger Rabbit— 10/28/05 @ 12:53 pm
Except for that minor fact I despised the willie wagger and would no more vote for him than I would for Sims as king of the dogshit brigade – which actually would be too god for him.
Proudly Asinine calls us “fruitcake fringies” because we think outing a CIA agent in retaliation for blowing the whistle on an administration that lied to the American people and the world in order to start a war is a more serious offense against the public peace and dignity than getting a blowjob in the Oval Office.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
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HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE HE
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Thanks for the laugh, Ass, I needed that.
60
But you would vote for Bush and Cheney without reservation or principle …
Hey Ass, here’s the Factoid of the Day — I not only despite Libby, Rove, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle, and the rest of the cabal of warmongers and liars comprising the Bush Administration, I also despise you for being a supporter, enabler, and apologist for that crowd. You are an unprincipled, unpatriotic, un-American piece of shit. You know how dogs eat their own shit? You’re so low, even a dog wouldn’t eat you.
Note: The double meaning in that last sentence is intentional.
As opposed to having no principles? Can we say Clinton (x2), Dunker Kennedy, Screamin Dean, Gigolo Kerry, Gore, Corpse Abuser Blanco, Bagdad Jim and OsamaMomma Murray?
I also despise you for being a supporter, enabler, and apologist for that crowd. You are an unprincipled, unpatriotic, un-American piece of shit. You know how dogs eat their own shit? You’re so low, even a dog wouldn’t eat you. Comment by Roger Rabbit— 10/28/05 @ 1:01 pm
Whaaa whaa, you made me cry…. and exposed your perfect ASSness.
Roger Rabbit
‘Hillary wasn’t prosecuted because the Special Counsel didn’t find anything prosecutable’
And then…
‘He’s a traitor and war criminal, but as a practical matter, his perjury and obstruction of justice make it difficult or impossible to prove his treason and war crimes in a court of law, so if convicted by a jury he’ll only get a jail term and not the firing squad or noose he deserves.’
i.e. most of Wabbit’s Libby speculation is not “prosecutable”.
Hillary’s lies did not make it impossible to get to the bottom of all the Clintongates and were not “prosecutable”. Libby is a traitor and war criminal despite those charges not being “prosecutable”.
Priceless Wabbit!!
IDGAF @ 10
I know Classified is a big word, but here’s a link to the definition of classified.
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dic.....0&y=0
Classified:
2. withheld from general circulation for reasons of national security
But… Apparently IDGAF only did a text search for the word secret or covert, ’cause I would like to point IDGAF to section 1, subsection F, in which it stats:
Joseph Wilson was married to Valerie Plame Wilson (“Valerie Wilson”). At all relevant times from January 1, 2002 through July 2003, Valerie Wilson was employed by the CIA, and her employment status was classified. Prior to July 14, 2003, Valerie Wilson’s affiliation with the CIA was not common knowledge outside the intelligence community.
By saying that her employment was CLASSIFIED, it means the only way you can know her employment was if you have a security clearance given to you by the government of the United States and that you can not share her employment with anyone that does not have a security clearance. Scooter was privvy to this information because he had the Security Clearance to view this information, however, he shared this information with people that did not have Security Clearance, thereby violating the terms of his security clearance which, according to the indictment says:
“I have been advised that the unauthorized disclosure, unauthorized retention, or negligent handling of classified information by me could cause damage or irreparable injury to the United States or could be used to advantage by a foreign nation.”
So this means that:
a) Someone other than the CIA authorized the release of Valerie Plame’s employment status, but seeing that the CIA is the only government department that could have authroized that release, that’s not possible.
b) Scooter knowingly released classified information to the press and thus, endangered NATIONAL SECURITY.
I got an urgent IM from Mrs dumb bunny butt…the dumb bunny butt is cranky with a terrible case of diaper rash from constantly filling his Depends. Mrs dumb bunny apologizes because she forgot the industrial sized Desitin when she was trolling the Walmart last night.
Shhh… she doesn’t want him to know she shops WalMart… she pockets the pennies she saves from the miserly “allowance” he gives her.
Scooter knowingly released classified information to the press and thus, endangered NATIONAL SECURITY. -Comment by Bobblehead— 10/28/05 @ 1:23 pm
Right.
And then her husband prostituted her on the cover of Vanity Fair!
Oh wait!
Isn’t Vanity Fair magazine “the press”???
Lying to the Grand Jury, obstructing justice, perjury – I wonder how President George Jr will find a way to award lackey Scooter Libbey a Medal of Freedom for this? Royal decree? Above-the-Law prerogative?
Clinton lied about a personal matter, (not an excuse for lying), but the matter was between him and Hillary. To their credit, they kept their marriage intact. The Bush White House ilk present a threat to the security of the nation with their lies.
I wonder if Scooter could be punished with a Tar-n-Feathering? YEAAHH!!!
The only thing I’m confused about is why Libby wasn’t also indicted under Title 18, Sections 793 (improper disclosure of national defense information). He obviously did that.
But the investigation is still on going, so perhaps Libby’s indictment for that violation will be later.;)
My previous calls for Bush to nominate Fitzgerald for SCOTUS yesterday went unheeded. Now I declare that it would be a mistake to nominate Libby for SCOTUS instead.
Okay.. ProudtobeanAss, you’re an idiot. Valerie Plame did not appear on the cover of Vanity Fair until January 2004, 6 months after she had already been outed by Scooter. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle moron. When Novak published his article on July 14, 2003, Valerie Plame’s employment was no longer classified.
So.. Try again.
b) Scooter knowingly released classified information to the press and thus, endangered NATIONAL SECURITY.
So Wilson, who wrote in an op-ed in the New York Times saying that he was sent on a secret mission by the CIA to investigate rumors about yellowcake uranium, did what??
71
I think Fitzgerald addressed this in his press conference: he did not rule out that such charges would not eventually be brought, but such charges require establishing intent, and the investigation had not yet yielded such grounds.
67
And further, it’s a tired argument that private individuals can somehow determine a CIA employee’s status. That, as far as I know, is something that only the CIA has the purview to determine, not pundits or bloggers. It also seems to indicate either gross ignorance or willful dishonesty on behalf of those who initiate these claims, e.g. that Plame was not a NOC. I don’t think there is any point in furthering such claims, based on the statements of a non-expert.
from the indictment:
“On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson’s wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Divison. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA.”
This is a crucial piece of information. The Counterproliferation Division (CPD) is part of the CIA’s Directorate of Operations, i.e., not the Directorate of Intelligence, the branch of the CIA where ‘analysts’ come from, but the DO, where the spies, the ‘operatives’, come from.
Libby’s a long time national security hand. He knows exactly what CPD is and where it is. So does Cheney. They both knew. It’s right there in the indictment.
ww.talkingpointsmemo.com
The only thing I’m confused about is why Libby wasn’t also indicted under Title 18, Sections 793 (improper disclosure of national defense information). He obviously did that.
Fitzgerald, in his career, has frequently held back charges as leverage against 2nd-tier players. That’s what’s happening in this case.
Libby can turn state’s evidence and cop to a reduced sentence.
Or Fitzgerald pushes for a maximum sentence of 30 years(laid out by his harm to national security talk) and then files charges for the leak itself.
Libby is going to have to decide *very soon* if Bush is going to pardon him and risk the political fallout in 2006 or be tossed overboard as a liability.
74
Not a thing. By the time of Wilson’s op-ed piece the CIA had already acknowledged that there had been an authorized mission to Niger. But if you actually mean his anonymous sourcing in May 2003, then you may have a point. However, that release may fall under whistleblower protection status. About a decade ago workers at Area 51 were able to sue the government for hazardous work conditions and that not only confirmed the existence of Area 51 (which the government hadn’t done prior to that and they were burning toxic waste in open pits on the base. The workers in that case were able to retain their clearances, well.. The living ones..
75
Thanks! I haven’t seen the press conference.;)
Libby should go down under the full force of the law if proven guilty. If lying itself were a crime, however, the many of lefties on the HA “team” would be pecking their comments from the slammer. The so-called “lies” about going to war exposed by Wilson? Not so.
Libby and Rove did not ever need to name Plame, or even say that it was Wilson’s wife that was involved. They could have used the old reporter’s trick – “an opponant of the Administration who is close to Wilson on the inside recommended him for the Niger trip”. And then, fueling speculation about why Wilson could publish an OpEd about “classified” information, etc.
Just to refresh…”lies” that took us to war debunked:
Pass the kool-aid.
The Plamegate results should be in this week. If anyone in or out of the administration lied, obstructed or outed a covert agent they should be prosecuted. Do not forget, however, that Rove and Libby were not trying to smear Wilson, but only exposing his lies, which live on here today on HA.
Wilson did not disprove that Iraq sought yellow cake from Africa. Wilson did not know about the forged documents before he completed his “mission”, months before they were discovered. Wilson’s wife was responsible for his getting the CIA assignment. The CIA did not think the “mission” or the resulting findings were worth keeping secret, nor that the findings did anything but confirm the original premise that Iraq had sought yellow cake. Short version – most of the critical points Wilson made in his OpEd were either later admitted as lies to the Senate, or known to be different than what was actually claimed by Bush and co.
http://weeklystandard.com/Cont.....7wnmrb.asp
http://www.townhall.com/opinio.....72504.html
In particular:
“True, Rove and Libby did seek to discredit Joseph Wilson – as they should well have done. As the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded in a bipartisan report in July 2004, just about everything Wilson said publicly about his trip to Niger was untrue. He said that he had discredited reports that Iraq sought to buy uranium in Niger. But the CIA people to whom he reported concluded that, if anything, he substantiated such reports. He said that he pointed out that certain other intelligence reports were forged. But the forgeries did not appear until eight months after his trip. He said his wife had nothing to do with his trip to Niger. But it was she who recommended him for the trip. And on and on.”
Why was Wilson assigned this duty without so much as a non-disclosure agreement, and allowed to vent in an Op-Ed? Because the CIA wanted to deflect blame over the mission WMDs. Wilson was part of the CIA Op to do this.
The war in Iraq is only a diversion to those that still live in a pre 9-11 world. Iraq should have been finished in 1991, and barring that, several times throughout the 1990’s. His threat to the region and the US, including the WMDs was well established by the CIA, both the Clinton and Bush II administrations, as well as politicians on both sides of the divide. Even without yellow cake, which is still a viable reason, Saddam had to go in our post-9-11 world. And Al Qaeda? The links there were again a very small part of the overall reasons, yet even these are overlooked here in the kool-aid capital of the world. For those who really are curious the Iraq/Al Qaeda liks were there, even if there are no proven links to 9-11 itself.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....6ssjsb.asp
Lies about Iraq’s WMDs. Give me break. UNSCOM never knew how much of what Iraq had, or whether any or all had been destroyed. How about a link to a lefty site – full of damning evidence related to UNSCOM reports and WMD understanding. Warning – Put your kool-aid down first.
http://www.carnegieendowment.o.....6-Iraq.pdf
The lefties have repeated lies about ‘lies” for so long now that it is not merely a propaganda exercise to get Kerry elected. They appear to actually believe their own re-version of history.
Bring on the profanity – it is all you have left.
Comment by yearight— 10/24/05 @ 3:44 pm
Bobblehead-79 ‘By the time of Wilson’s op-ed piece the CIA had already acknowledged that there had been an authorized mission to Niger.’
Is an acknowledgement of a mission enough to open up all the details?
‘However, that release may fall under whistleblower protection status.’
Seems unlikely due to the fact that most all of the OpEd material that appeared as blown whistle was later shown to be untrue.
76
Another good point Dr. E. :)
I think another tired and worn out excuse is that because Valerie Plame was riding a desk at Langley she wasn’t a NOC. NOC status doesn’t go away because you are stateside and the fact that she was working at Langley at the time doesn’t mean they weren’t protecting her identity and employment status.
Rupert Wabbet: Don’t you and bigfoot have similar DNA strands? You claim to have big hind feet!!!
81
Is an acknowledgement of a mission enough to open up all the details?
Aha! Found the Op-ed piece Wilson wrote.
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0706-02.htm
Apparently his mission was not a secret mission. He was sent by the CIA in response to a question from the Office of the Vice President, but it was not a secret mission as he clearly identified himself as being part of the US Government.
Seems unlikely due to the fact that most all of the OpEd material that appeared as blown whistle was later shown to be untrue.
What information in the Op-Ed piece has been shown to be untrue? Wilson did go to Niger (confirmed by the CIA), he was sent by the CIA (confirmed by the CIA), the CIA did send him at the request of the Office of the Vice President (Confirmed by the CIA), and he did not find any evidence that Iraq sought yellowcake (Confirmed by the CIA)…
82
Indeed, and few people are talking about Brewster Jennings, her front company, whose cover was simultaneously blown.
FROM THE WASHINGTON TIMES: In the portions of President Clinton’s Jan. 17 deposition that have been made public in the Paula Jones case, his memory failed him 267 times. This is a list of his answers and how many times he gave each one.
I don’t remember – 71
I don’t know – 62
I’m not sure – 17
I have no idea – 10
I don’t believe so – 9
I don’t recall – 8
I don’t think so – 8
I don’t have any specific recollection – 6
I have no recollection – 4
Not to my knowledge – 4
I just don’t remember – 4
I don’t believe – 4
I have no specific recollection – 3
I might have – 3
I don’t have any recollection of that – 2 I don’t have a specific memory – 2
I don’t have any memory of that – 2
I just can’t say – 2
I have no direct knowledge of that – 2
I don’t have any idea – 2
Not that I recall – 2
I don’t believe I did – 2
I can’t remember – 2
I can’t say – 2
I do not remember doing so – 2
Not that I remember – 2
I’m not aware – 1
I honestly don’t know – 1
I don’t believe that I did – 1
I’m fairly sure – 1
I have no other recollection – 1
I’m not positive – 1
I certainly don’t think so – 1
I don’t really remember – 1
I would have no way of remembering that – 1
That’s what I believe happened – 1
To my knowledge, no – 1
To the best of my knowledge – 1
To the best of my memory – 1
I honestly don’t recall – 1
I honestly don’t remember – 1
That’s all I know – 1
I don’t have an independent recollection of that – 1
I don’t actually have an independent memory of that – 1
As far as I know – 1
I don’t believe I ever did that – 1
That’s all I know about that – 1
I’m just not sure – 1
Nothing that I remember – 1
I simply don’t know – 1
I would have no idea – 1
I don’t know anything about that – 1
I don’t have any direct knowledge of that – 1
I just don’t know – 1
I really don’t know – 1
I can’t deny that, I just — I have no memory of that at all – 1
85
And there were NOCs using Brewster Jennings as their cover stories. Also, what about her contacts in the other countries? :) Those contacts can no longer be used because they are already known and dead or known and unusable due to the risk.
So by outing Plame, Scooter not only blew the cover of Valerie Plame, but he blew the cover of ever NOC using Brester Jennings as a cover and the identity of every contact Valeric Plame or those other agents had developed.
Quite a way to fight the proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction, neh? Destroying an entire network of intelligence that was helping to do just that.
86
Why are we bringing up Clinton again? He lied about having sex with Monica, I don’t think there is anyone denying that.
The issue is the righties trying to compare lying about having sex with an intern to lying about the outing of a CIA agent.
Tom DeLay is the first House leader to be indicted in more than a century.
Scooter Libby is the first White House aide indicted in 130 years.
Looks like the GOP is well on its way to establishing itself as the “party of reform!”
Remember: when Bush got himself ‘elected’ in 2000, his mantra was “a reformer with results.”
I see a lot of results all right: botched invasions, record corporate welfare, skyrocketing foreign-held debt, weakening dollar, less security – but where’s the reform?
I’m sure an accomplished troll like Puddy or Cynical could fill me in. How’s about Mr. Reform – aka Joseph for weird Comments?
92
Don’t forget
Frist under investigation for insider trading by the SEC.
Abramoff’s investigation for money laundering and fraud.
The San Diego Republican that’s under investigation for accepting a bribe from a defense lobbyist. ;)
My favorite newspaper headline on the matter: http://www.sfgate.com
Bobblehead-87
See my comment 83, whic has been stuck in the filter.
News – the French planted the forged yellowcake docs to embarass the US and UK.
http://news.telegraph.co.uk/ne.....iger19.xml
AmazedByHisOwnHate: Puddy the “troll” here. Maybe I’ll change it to Puddy Patrol. Naah, Da Chimpmeister owns that.
Let’s see:
Botched Invasions: WHO is fucking with the US right now? Even Syria is starting to cower. The Palestinians are holding up Hamas as being responsible for hatred. North Korea is coming to terms on nukes. China is rattling sabres because the US is feared again. Keep reliving your hate.
Foreign Held Debt: Yes there is foreign held debt. We are consumers. We want everything so we go into debt to purchase it. What about all you donks who live in Snohomish, King and Pierce Counties? You consume most of the gas, and resources in this state. But do any of you say we have to stop? Hell no! Keep reliving your hate.
Weakening Dollar: Can’t be strong everyday. But that being said, our economy is tronger than most of Asia and all of Europe. Keep reliving your hate.
Less security: See point #1 Keep reliving your hate.
Reform: Well let’s see, I didn’t know DeLay was part of the administration. And since Libby is not indicted on outing Plame, awww your house of cards is not too tough!! Keep reliving your hate.
Now back to Chimp Patrol, you can keep the patrol, but I like Pa-Troll myself. Also you didn’t choose which link you are, the piss drinking chimp or the sticking the finger up his ass and smelling one? Which are you Chimpy?
Only weeks after we were told that former National Security Adviser, Sandy Berger stealing and shredding Top Secret Classified material pertinent to an ongoing Senate investigation was “no big deal”, we have an indictment for confusing conversations with reporters. – WOW
This may make dems happy today. But, it probably isn’t good for our future.
It’s fascinating- the fissure that started D.C. and has cracked this country in two. A bad man who lied about doing something that any patriot with red, white and blue blood should rightly be appalled at. Fitzgerald is still working. There is a chance that other officials may be implicated with a variety of crimes as lies tend to build like a log jam.
We are in the middle of the autumn of the first year of the second term for the administration of the 43rd president of the United States of America. Next year congress will go through another election cycle. This time along the very edges of the fissure that starts in D.C. and reaches all the way across the lower forty eight states, across the water where it ends red state blue state seperate but equal.
Shall we let this fissure collapse the republic- not completely, of course, but the infastructure will need reapairing at some point in the future. How far in the future depends upon how well we can pick each other up, dust each other off, shake and then clean house on both sides.
Fuck every one of you right wing Republican fools.
Fuck you every possible way you can be fucked.
Fuck you every day of the week and twice on fucking Sunday.
Wow. Lots of f-bombs. Very useful. At least you’re giving the always frustrated Puddybud a run for his money.
BTW, Puddybud – since the Libby indictment means there’s going to be a trial, and the issue at hand is the manipulation of pre-war intelligence with the Vice President being forced to testify, something tells me your shrill short-man complex posts are going to become a lot more shrill in the coming months!
I like the part about the Neocons making a tiny country like Syria quake in its boots. Reminds me of Reagan getting the “peace through strength” crowd all riled up over the tiny, inconsequential nation of Grenada. Funny how you right wing sheep always fall for it. Heck, Argentina could threaten Syria. And the funny part is, even the Neocons know they can’t cause too much destabilization – because, if Assad’s government fails, and the country disintegrates, we all know where the next terrorist hotbed will be.
So, in short, bloodthirsty couch generals, chickenhawks, and warmongers like Puddybud might talk a good game, but even their cult leaders aren’t dumb enough to entertain their ignorant ideas.
And just look at what is going on in the more significant country of Iran, where their new Talibangelist ruler is doing some saber-rattling of his own. Thanks to Bush’s botched Iraq policy, Iran now knows that the Great Satan doesn’t have the ability to back up its bark with any bite. Feel safer, folks?
rujax206 @99
Whasup? You frustrated Rove remains unindicted? I am guessing he will remain so.
Anyway, Fitz seemed impressive at his conference. It seems certain to me that he was the right person for this job.
@81 However, that release may fall under whistleblower protection status.
Giving away national secrets because you disagree with the administration’s course of action is not covered under whistleblower protection.
@78 And further, it’s a tired argument that private individuals can somehow determine a CIA employee’s status.
Anyone with a pair of binoculars (ok, you really don’t even need that) could see Valerie Plame drive her car through the gate at Langley every day and flash a badge and gather that she worked at the CIA. What did she do there? Who cares? What she did there was recommend her husband for a classified mission to Niger which he turns around and says to all the media he was sent by the White House. The White House says no, it was actually your wife and the CIA who sent you on that mission. There is no evidence that the White House (Cheney, Rove, Libby, etc.) knew or cared that 6+ years ago she may have been undercover. Why would they? They were interested in her ongoing meddling in affairs, sending people on classified missions without a nondisclosure agreement (a HUGE no-no in the CIA, not that that should give Wilson any right to divulge classified information anyway). The White House didn’t really have the option not to go public with her medling, because she and Wilson were endangering national security by their releases of biased information which was classified in the first place. The only real thing they could have done diffenently was to throw Wilson in jail right away for leaking classified, and reprimand Plame for cronyism.
The Republicans scored a huge win today for these reasons:
1) Libby was indicted, not Rove. The left wanted Rove. No one even knew who Libby was until this came up; him being gone is no big loss.
2) Libby resigned. Unlike Bill Clinton, who we know for a fact lied under oath. Unlike Hillary Clinton, who we know for a fact lied under oath. Had Libby stayed on, it would have hurt the Republican Party.
3) Libby is going to trail. That gives the Republicans an opportunity to put Wilson on the stand and see how ridiculous his story really is. Wilson is going to blow the prosecutions case. They may still convict, but in the court of public opinion, Wilson is going to bomb.
Okay, Michael, we’ll see how your point no. 3 plays itself out. But it seems to me that anytime a high-ranking WH official is indicted for something, it’s not a win of any kind for the receiving end.
Your point no. 2 is basically irrelevant, since the books are closed on Clinton: he’s out of office, and there is a difference of magnitude between the import of the alleged crimes.
As for point no. 1, an awful lot of people knew who Libby was, and they’ve known for quite some time. The “left” didn’t want Rove — they wanted what seems to be a treasonable offense to be thoroughly investigated and, where necessary, criminal charges brought. Actually, that seems to me to be something most law abiding citizens would want, regardless of their political stripe.
I really don’t want to address your “binocular” defense, as it’s been pretty thoroughly debunked, and debunked numerous times at that. Unless you have some direct experience as to how things actually work at Langley — information that would contradict those who most certainly know more about the situation than virtually anyone posting here — I do not see on what authority you could even offer that defense.
Umm, I used to work at Ft. Meade, which has a sister mission to Langley, I do know how things like that work.
All this hubbub does is keep the gap nice and wide between dems and reps and stir the hatred and fervor so nobody notices that BOTH groups are self serving, power hungry, siccophants.
Both sides would rather tear our country apart for fear we might look at them objectively and discover that none of them are doing the job they are elected to perform. There’s not enough time to actually run our country between bribe campaigns.
Probably 2/3 of all of them are crooks. Every time one gets indicted it just gives the “other side” a moment to jump for glee and explain how the crooks in their camp are “nothing compared to THAT guy”.
You’re all pitiful if you play this game of gotcha. That’s what they want.
AmazedByHisOwnHate: How am I shrill? Just because I identify the bullshit from the mouth of liberals and play it back? Aww shucks, AmazedByHisOwnHate, you should know better. I just point out the specifics. Rove will be cleared, the DeLay will be too. Your idealogical pundits are so depressed. No Rove, No Peace! No Rove, No Peace!
Puddy;
I am sorry I don’t now how to look at every post from september 6 to see what I said. please post my one month and a half old liberal anti Israel statement that you attribute to me. My mother would be very dissapointed to hear that I was anti- Israel. She would be more dissapointed, if I didn’t use my brain to determine that there are issues on both sides of that quagmire. 50 plus years of strife over there, wonder how Americas gonna due in the region 50 years from now? Iraq, Syria, Iran.
Michael @ 76
“So Wilson, who wrote in an op-ed in the New York Times saying that he was sent on a secret mission by the CIA to investigate rumors about yellowcake uranium, did what?? “
Another stupid statement from a fucking wingnut.
Wilson’s mission was not classified. Wilson did not claim it was.
Did you even READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE, you fucking moron?
DR E
WHY DONT YOU GO BACK TO YOUR CIRCUMCISIONS.AND WHIKW YOUR AT IT GIVE THE TIPS TO GOLDY.
does anyone work for a living or do you folks write from work? The noon hour accounts for several comments,but lots in the AM and more in the PM–flex time maybe
Fuck every one of you right wing Republican fools.
Fuck you every possible way you can be fucked.
Fuck you every day of the week and twice on fucking Sunday. -Comment by rujax206— 10/28/05 @ 3:20 pm
Aww, the poor little rugrat is disappointed on Fitzmas morning and now he’s having a tantrum.
Just wait till you see the tantrum when President Bush names his nominee for the Supreme Court. It will be fruitcake fringie apoplexy!
I can’t wait.
“howcanyoubeproudtobanass” shorten you handle to “pottymouth”
easier to type, or peabrain would fit too (but with your foul mouth you would likely spell it peebrain)
yearight @ 95
Ah. Yes. I didn’t see your comment at 83. First off, read these links:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....0711.shtml
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Found=true
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wor.....065165.stm
http://slate.msn.com/id/2085848/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....ter2-f.htm
Link #1 notes that the Senate report cherry picked a CIA reports officer’s interpretation that Wilson’s trip supported the Niger claim because Wilson quoted a former Nigerian Foreign Minister as saying in 1999 an Iraqi delegation requested to meet with him to explore “expanding commercial relations” and that the Foreign Minister assumed before the meeting they would mention Uranium (Niger is the #3 Uranium exporter and it is their #1 export). This is quite frankly a skilly interpretation for the CIA report officer to take. For one.. The Foreign Minister is the person that met with the Iraqi delegation and he would know what they talked about after the report. For two, Niger’s #1 export is Uranium. In 1997 it made up 70% of their exports, so of course the Foreign Minister is going to assume they wanted to talk about his country’s #1 export. But yet again, because he met with the Iraqi delegation he would know if they brought up getting yellowcake in the actual meeting.
Link #1 also notes that the Senate Intelligence Committee heard from an INR analyst that Wilson’s report confirmed what the INR was already thinking and they were thinking that the claim was highly suspect.
Basically, what you get from the senate report is that Wilson’s report was interpretted by different people differently and not because of his conclusions, but because of the details of his report. Wilson has always said that his conclusion after conducting the investigation was that the claim was inaccurate, a claim that was confirmed by the US Ambassador to Niger.
Link #2 shows that the Senate report’s claim is directly contradicted by the CIA and Tenet. In October 2002, the CIA had the sixteen words removed from an early draft of the State of the Union address because the claim was ‘debatable’. Tenet later faxed the White House saying the claim was ‘supported by only one source’. The source was the Niger document, which at the time was considered to be a good document. If Wilson’s trip supported the claim that Iraq sought yellowcake from Niger, then there would have been TWO sources. So why would Tenet say there was only one source when he had an apparently credible document as one source and Wilson’s trip as a second source?? The obvious answer is because Wilson’s trip did not support that claim.
Link #2 also shows that when the White House brought up including the words again in January 2003, the CIA discouraged its inclusion because there was no new evidence to support the claim and that it was highly suspect.
Link #3 shows that the Nigerian mines are controlled by a French company and exported to France for refining. So why would Iraq, a country that was not able to refine uranium at the time, go to Niger to get raw Uranium? The administration later detailed that it wasn’t just Uranium Iraq wanted, they were looking to purchase 500 tons of REFINED uranium, commonly called yellowcake. But how would they get refined uranium from a country that has to export their Uranium to get it refined??
Link #4 is an explanation of what Yellowcake is.;)
Link #5 is just my rub it in your face link. Included in Tenet’s fax was that based on intelligence Iraq had no reason to seek yellowcake because it already had significant stockpiles of it.
So basically the only conclusion one can come up with is:
A. The Senate report’s claim that Wilson’s report backed up the Niger claim is refuted by multiple sources, including the Senate’s hearings themselves, reports by the CIA, statements by then CIA Director George Tenet, and an understanding of how the Nigerian mines are operated.
B. Joseph Wilson is telling the truth when he says that he concluded there was no basis for the Iraqi seeking uranium claim. This is backed up by the Nigerian ambassador at the time, which shared his conclusion.
and finally….
C. NONE OF THIS MATTERS BECAUSE EVEN IF JOSEPH WILSON IS NOT TELLING THE TRUTH, SCOOTER LIBBY AND AT LEAST ONE OTHER WHITE HOUSE OFFICIAL RELEASED THE IDENTITY OF A CIA OPERATIVE TO THE PRESS BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO SMEAR A WHISTLEBLOWER.
Seriously, if Wilson was not telling the truth, they could have refuted his claims quite easily. Wilson spoke to the Nigerian Ambassador, two people from the CIA, and at least one person from the State Department. If Wilson’s Op-ed piece was a steaming pile of crap, they could have brought those people out and have them tell the press what Wilson really said. There is absolutely no excuse they can offer up for outing a CIA agent.
I don’t even see how saying his wife sent him to Niger hurts him really. His wife was a CIA agent, the CIA wanted someone to go to Niger to answer a question, so she offered up her husband. How does that make Wilson look like an idiot?
*grin*
yearight @ 95
Haven’t forgotten ya, just my response is stuck in the filter for now.;)
@107 Wilson’s mission was not classified. Wilson did not claim it was
Yeah, missions that the CIA send you on rarely are he hem. It’s funny that the Senate Intelligence Report says that he was given operational Secret clearance for the mission. Why would they do that I wonder?
Comment by HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS— 10/28/05 @ 6:09 pm
“It will be fruitcake fringie apoplexy!”
Fruitcake around Fitzmas? Never happen.
113
He was given operational Secret clearance for the mission because he needed it to get access to information leading up to his mission. Namely, before he could even be told about the Niger document he had to have Secret clearance. While his mission to Niger was not Secret, the information he was told about it was classified.
And yes.. You are correct. Missions the CIA sends you on are rarely not Secret, but according to everyone involved in this mission, this one was.
silly puddy, I am the kind of chimp that looks at you and your ilk and realize that evolution is probably correct, you must be my great, great, great, great, great, great grand chimpy. Damn I am glad my breed and genes have improved since your days.
104
That’s fine, but you haven’t addressed the 3 points above.
YO
Turn of your caps lock and I’ll ignore your attempted quasi-racist slur.
Reply to 67
What’s wrong with Roger Rabbit speculating about what Libby is guilty of? You Republicans speculate all the time about what liberals are guilty of. Why should you have a monopoly on speculation? You pricks want a fucking monopoly on everything. Screw you! And screw the armadillo you rode in on, too.
@89
This is your defense of Scooter Libby? That Clinton suffered 267 memory lapses in his Paula Jones deposition? For Scooter’s sake (not that I care), I hope he has better lawyers than you.
Bottom line: Not one of our right-wing troll friends has seen fit to criticize the Bush Administrative or its lackeys for leaking the name of a CIA agent. What a bunch of fucking apologists for treason. Shame on all of you.
And how many times did Reagan say “I do not recall…” during his grilling for Iran-Contra. ;) If we’re going to be judging corruption based on the number of times someone says they don’t remember something, then Reagan is the most corrupt politician in history.
You goopers are the stupidest fucking morons…you get lied to and you defend the liars that are selling you down the river.
You lie to defend the liars that are lying to you. Cretins!
This is such a sad day for my country. When the people whose salary I pay…lie. Lie to start a war then lie to smear a public servant who gave their life to protect ours. Fuckers. Listen…whether it’s one or one hundred it’s too many. And how funny…this shit always seems to happen with Republican Administrations. Riddle me that.
Rujax,
Republican administrations get indicted for endangering national security (Iran-Contra, Plamegate), Democratic administrations get indicted for lying about getting oral sex and hitting on ugly chicks. :)
rujax206
Does your mother know you swear. Im sure she we be proud of you.
Forty years from now (when they are 53 or so)ProudAss and YeaRight will still be yelling “Clinton” every time a rightwinger gets caught doing something wrong. Give it a rest boys, its 2005.
Hey there is a Democrat who is going to help Bush replace his Scooter. See The Whitehouse Needs Your Vespa
OK Roger, I’m a conservative (but def’y NOT a rep) and I’ll be happy to criticize the white house for leaking a CIA agents name. I think it’s scandalous and even though scooter’s indictment is only for perjury because she wasn’t technically undercover and therefore it wasn’t a crime to leak, he is facing 30 years and 1.5 million dollars so they’re getting what they deserve. I think it’s disgusting when they leak crap like that for political purposes.
Meanwhile though, bobblehead, rujax and the rest of you. You are also just as blind as the republican goofheads. You are equally ready to spin slick Willy as “hitting on a ugly chick” (umm, is THAT what you call sexual harrassment? gee) and selective memory when it comes to Iraq. Yes, when your hero Bill Clinton bombed baghdad, you didn’t question his reasoning (which was, by the way Saddam’s impending development of WMD), oh yeah, we forget all the stuff Clinton’s staff said back in 1998 because it’s just not convenient.
Furthermore, did Clinton lie when he invaded Bosnia? Just how evil were those Serbs? Hmm, maybe in retrospect the Croats weren’t as bad as we were told, were they? But did any of you have rally’s demanding Clinton “form an exit strategy from Bosnia”? No of course not.
No, you guys are just as guilty as the republicans of blindly following whatever crap your party dishes out.
As far as I can tell none of you really deserve the brain your were born with because you don’t actually use it, you are all just robots following your party and the glorious hero’s (blech) both sides put up as leaders.
If you want to be stupid, fine, but stop being so darned dumb with MY money! And stop being to darned impudent when I stand up and protest when you try and rip my hard earned money from me to pay for your healthcare, prescriptions, gas bills, digital TV conveters (that was a real nice one) and whatever other crap you feel the great society has the obligation to provide.
And yes, that goes for the reps in power too, they are on an even bigger spending spree than the dems (which I can’t believe I’m saying, but it’s true).
And how many times did Reagan say “I do not recall…” during his grilling for Iran-Contra
Yeah, but Reagan had alzheimers :)
So far:
Scooter gets hit for perjury and faces 30 yrs in prison and $1.25 million
Clinton gets hit for perjury and he claims immunity because he’s too special and gets $2000 for court expenses and a undetermined sanction from the bar association to be named later.
I don’t think either one is fair.
@118 That makes absolutely no sense. And it wouldn’t matter anyway. In his NYT op-ed, he talked about the story he was sent to investigate, which even you admit was classified.
@132 The prosecutor finds that Hillary lied about travelgate but doesn’t see any reason to indict.
What to expect next.
Some prescient remarks.
“howcanyoubeproudtobanass” shorten you handle to “pottymouth”
easier to type, or peabrain would fit too (but with your foul mouth you would likely spell it peebrain) -Comment by the hapless liberal— 10/28/05 @ 6:30 pm
Nice try, sweetcheeks.
I’m among the very FEW posting here that do NOT use the disgusting language of the fruitcake fringies – the F’s and the S’s and the W’s.
Do I call you asses? Yep, you betcha… early and often
Read the name of the blog, sweetcheeks.
@134 That’s because there was no crime to travelgate. It’s only perjury if the lie is material. For instance, if the grand jury asked Libby what he had for breakfast and he said yogurt, but in fact it was bacon eggs and a muffin, he may be lying but its not chargeable as perjury unless they are investigating a breakfast related crime. Hilary was not the one who fired the travel office employees and didn’t have the power to do so as first lady, and as “at-will” employees, those employees could be fired for any reason or no reason. Whether Hilary wanted them fired or not was irrelevant. And so whether she lied about being involved or not was also irrelevant.
And by the way, I notice that when a rightwinger gets indicted, the wingers are quick to yell innocent until proven guilty, but with the Clintons, even an allegation is proof positive of their guilt. Funny how that works.
@137 Hilary was not the one who fired the travel office employees
And Libby was apparently not the leaker. At least that’s what Fitzgerald says. Fitzgerald knows who the leaker was, but he isn’t saying. Could it be because he doesn’t believe that was a violation of any law?
@137 It’s only perjury if the lie is material.
You might want to read Dr. E’s link as to what “substantive” means: http://www.tompaine.com/articl.....t_next.php
Yes, and she also sums up a lot of what is being posted here, especially in defense of the administration:
“We should expect attempts by pundits to derive “meaning” from the absence of charges under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the Espionage Act. Reasons for the absence of such charges can range from insufficient evidence to concerns about the Classified Information Procedures Act, which governs the use of classified information in a criminal case. No one other than Fitzgerald, his staff, and the grand jury knows why certain charges were not brought and they will never be able to explain their decisions.”
“We should expect a campaign to demonize Fitzgerald through claims that he is overzealous and has exceeded his authority. Such attacks are legally irrelevant, but more important, they’re wrong.”
“We should also expect pundits to argue that this prosecution is political. That is the most despicable of red herrings considering that Fitzgerald has been a career prosecutor forbidden by the Hatch Act to participate in politics for 20 years, is registered without political affiliation and was appointed by a Republican.”
Sun Myung Moon is from Korea and he owns an influential conservative newspaper in DC. He also contributes a lot of money to the Republicans through the back door— as do many right wing authoritarians supported by the US> It’s all justified by them because of Jean Kirkpatrick’s unsupported claim that democracy can only come from rightt wing dictatorships, not left.
How conveeeeeenient!
What’s gonna be REALLY funy is when the rest of the “Yellowcake” scandal blows up and takes the smirking chimp with it.
I smell impeachment for lying to the electorate about starting a war. it really does take a republican administration to fuck up this bad. Har-Deee-Har-Har-Har.
Rujax, the person with no life (and that’s certainly no surprise)
Hundreds of mindless, delussional, psychotic posts from first thing in the morning well into the night. But hey. when you sit on your dumbass day after day waiting for the “benefits check” to come, what else does a moron have to do?
Let’s see what some Rujax’s favorite people had to say about the war:
One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.” – President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.” – President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.” – Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time since 1983.” – Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb 18,1998
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the US Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.” – Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry (D – MA), and others Oct. 9,1998
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.” – Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
“Hussein has chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.” – Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
“There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.” – Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.” – Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.” – Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.” – Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.” – Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…” – Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force- if necessary- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.” – Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do” – Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.” – Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.” – Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction .. So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real” – Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003
SO NOW EVERY ONE OF THESE SAME DEMOCRATS SAY PRESIDENT BUSH LIED-THAT THERE NEVER WERE ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION AND HE TOOK US TO WAR UNNECESSARILY!
The most vile part of this campaign against Mr. Bush is that the terrorist war is being used as a tool to try to defeat him. Indeed, the anti-Bush campaign threatens to undermine our war effort, give encouragement to our enemies, and cost American lives. But as we all know, this is what the Democratic party has become. No ideas, no plans, no solutions. Just shrill idiotic rhetoric from the likes of Rujax. the SINGLE most pathetic dumbass on HA.
Idiot @ 140
What the fuck does Iraq have to do with terrorism? All Bush did by invading Iraq is create another haven for terrorists. Hey dummy — we’re ALL against the terrorists! We’re ALL for fighting the assholes who attacked the U.S. on 9/11/2001! We just want a commander-in-chief who knows what he’s doing, not a dumb jackass like Bush whose incompetence makes the problem worse while wasting the lives of American soldiers.
Furthermore, Idiot @140, you’re an unpatriotic anti-American traitor for supporting Bush and the GOP.
IDGAF: No, there are many more shrill idiotic rhetoric animal hind parts members. Rugrat602 just likes to see his name in pixes more often.
Oops that should be pixels.
Rupert Wabbet: Terrorists used Iraq as a way station. Zarqawi was in Iraq before we invaded.
Dear Mr. “I Don’t Give A Fuck”,
Talk about not having a life, bub…geez, look at you.
Listen…there was so much noise about Iraq for the last two decades from the PNAC that they had everybody worked up into a lather.
First we arm Hussein against Iran…then we say he’s a menace and try to take him out. I don’t know what kind of gullible moron you are and IDGAF.
Watch…there were lots and lots and lots of opportunities to find WMD’s and NONE (zreo, zip, nada) were found.
Captian Codpiece, Military Deserter and Chickenshit in Chief and his Marberry Machiavellis MADE UP reasons to invade Iraq, kill 2000 brave American men and women…seriously injure thousands more…decimate an already impoverished country…kill and maim hundreds of thousands of their porr citizens…for what????….so the Neo-Clown PNAC cabal can try out their “Chaos Theory” in the middle east. What a fucking piece of shit THAT turned out to be. Now we’re stuck with what history will judge to be THE most incompetent and corrupt political organization and American Presidential administration…EVER…for the next 3 years.
Bleeeeeeaaaaahhhhh!
P.S.- Ask any of the people on your “list” (oooooh IDGAF has a LISSSSSSST…I’m SOOOOOOOO SCEEEEEEERED) what they think now. Go ahead, smart guy…I dare ya’.
George Bush…lying fuckup…fake pResident.
He’s so smart, he traded SAMMY SOSA ferchrissakes. That’s how dumb that bastard is.
Captian Codpiece, Military Deserter and Chickenshit in Chief and his Marberry Machiavellis MADE UP reasons to invade Iraq, kill 2000 brave American men and women…seriously injure thousands more…decimate an already impoverished country…kill and maim hundreds of thousands of their porr citizens…for what????….
To kill thousands of thousands of terrorists. I know you are pissed that you will never be able to hug these terrorists. Hopefully we will be able to kill the next 100,000 without as many casualties.
You are the worlds most fucking stupid moron.
They are CREATING more “terrorists” (read native nationalist insurgents against FORIEGN occupation) than they can fight.
bush’s bullshit “WOT” is a grim fucking joke.
I can’t wait ’till they’re ALL plaing gin rummy in Leavenworth.
Just like wabbits oil theory terrorist are a finite resource and sooner or later we will run out of them to kill. Until then shoot away!!
Yeah…I remember how they ran out of North Vietnamese too.
Not suprised since the donks ran most of the Vietnam war. That dumbass LBJ couldn’t handle the royal Canadian mounted police in upper Saskatchewan
I see you have all your talking points down…
“Wilson was sent by his wife and not by the White House as he claimed”
Lies, lies, lies. Wilson, if you were ever to read what he wrote and continues to say about the matter, which you won’t, claims that “the office of the VP” (probably Scooty) asked the CIA to investigate. The CIA subsequently asked him to go, not because “his wife sent him,” which she had no power to do, but because he was an experienced ex-amabassador to the region who, as a former Bush appointee, could be counted on to deliver an unbiased account. He went to Niger and concluded that due to security at the mones and the fact that considerable paperwork had to go through a multinational consortium, including France and the UK, to get any materials out, so the rumor was almost certainly bunk.
Libby, our boy Scoot, HE has a problem. he lied to FBI agents regarding where he obtained Valerie’s identity. THEN he lied to the grand jury, using the same story. Togethe they constitute obstruction of justice. The fact that he told the SAME story for years shows that he deberately constructed a cover story to hide the source of his imformation. I’m sure he was depending on the reporters involved to keep their mouths shut. That’s a bet he lost. Awww.
Now Fitz has indicted Libby, and I’ll bet more underlings will flip. This is not over by a long shot. The workings of the White House Iraq Group to smear Wilson, push the false “Iraq has nukes” scare to promote war, and to manipulate the press , domestic intel, and foreign governments may come all apart here.
But Fitz only wants clear-cut lawbreakers, so we may not get the housecleaning we’d like.
What’s REALLY going to be funny is watching Junior try to run the show by himself. Wow, holy ding-dong, will that be a circus!
Oh yeah…Tricky Dick was a BIIIIIG improvement. More lies…more destruction…more dirty dealing. that’s where Cheney cut his political teeth. Nice bunch of craven bastards, those.
You’re one of those assholes who’ll shoot the neighbor if his dog barks too much. What a shithead.
Curtis…If it wasn’t our country that was going down the tubes I’d be rolling on the floor.
@159 “Wilson was sent by his wife and not by the White House as he claimed”
You italicized that as though it were a quote, only no one said that except you. Of course she didn’t “send” him, she didn’t have that authority. She just used her position in the CIA to give a strong recommendation for him.
But congratulations on making up a quote in order to get your own talking point in.
What is purgery? What is is? Now when Clinton blew in wad on Monica blue dress and lied about what was it? Is that not purgery? Or is that is what it is?
163-
It’s PERJURY you dumb fuck. P-E-R-J-U-R-Y.
Clinton lied about a CONSENSUAL sex act. What that oversexed powerdriver was doing with that dumb slut was THEIR business. If Richard Mellon Scaife and his harrying harpies hadn’t been hounding the Clintons for TEN years they wouldn’t have even found out.
Libby, Rove, Bush, Cheney et al are LYING about NATIONAL SECURITY. Americans and Iraqis are dying EVERY DAY because of these corrupt, lying assholes.
Maybe a career dumbass like you can’t tell the difference…but I can. And so can most of the American people,
Well thanks Rujax for the correction buddy. Well so to be consistent let’s have Libby apologize for committing perjury. Why should Libby resign if Clinton didn’t? We should treat everyone the same. ISN’T that the right thing to do?
What part of COMPROMISING NATIONAL SECURITY do you not understand?
Rujass
Did Libby get indicted on outing a CIA agent? Do you know something that we don’t know.
BROOKS: WHY ARE DEMS SO OVERHEATED?
Sat Oct 29 2005 17:15:12 ET
Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not find evidence to prove that there was a “broad conspiracy to out a covert agent for political gain. He did not find evidence of wide-ranging criminal behavior. He did not even indict the media’s ordained villain, Karl Rove,” writes David Brooks in Sunday’s NY TIMES.
“Leading Democratic politicians filled the air with grand conspiracy theories that would be at home in the John Birch Society.”
“Why are these people so compulsively overheated?.. Why do they have to slather on wild, unsupported charges that do little more than make them look unhinged?
Dunno, maybe Brooks should ask rugrat.
Bloggers Yawn at Libby Indictment
Dunno, maybe they should ask rugrat.
Now why doesn’t THIS surprise us: Liberal blogger makes ‘Sambo’ slur?
Now let me get this straight. According to rujass this is about national security. The special prosecutor did not find a shred of evidence to indict anyone on outing a CIA agent. So rujass if no one did anything wrong please explain why this has anything to do with national security?
RUFUS, there is a one word answer to your question…
K O O L A I D!
rabbit @ 144
Were you talking to me or someone else?
I hear you proudass. The perjury charges are just going to make a martyr out of Libby instead of a villain. All the right has to do is shout Clinton! Nuff said.
168
Sounds to me like David Brooks is doing exactly what Elizabeth de la Vega predicted pundits (right wing or otherwise) would be doing right now (I’m reposting one quote from above):
“We should expect attempts by pundits to derive “meaning” from the absence of charges under the Intelligence Identities Protection Act or the Espionage Act. Reasons for the absence of such charges can range from insufficient evidence to concerns about the Classified Information Procedures Act, which governs the use of classified information in a criminal case. No one other than Fitzgerald, his staff, and the grand jury knows why certain charges were not brought and they will never be able to explain their decisions.” (emphasis mine)
You might want to read her article at: http://www.tompaine.com/articl.....t_next.php
It’s well reasoned, and written by a highly informed and extremely knowledgeable person with decades of direct experience in these matters.
It’s PERJURY you dumb fuck. P-E-R-J-U-R-Y.
Clinton lied about a CONSENSUAL sex act.
So are you saying that it is ok to lie to a grand jury if you think they shouldn’t be asking you those questions to begin with? Because that’s what it sounds like.
You know Libby at least resigned. Clinton stayed in office. It sounds like Scooter already is a martyr. And he hasn’t even had his day in court.
It sounds like the lying left steped in it again by making up these charges of outing Plame. I am sure Delay will be exonerated as well. Eventually this crap will catch up to the left. I will be laughing my ass off when it does.
Hey Guys it’s more than that.
Regarding Clinton case, it was more than sex. Didn’t a federal judge cite Clinton for lying under oath? Didn’t Clinton get caught suborning perjury on the part of Monica Lewinsky? Didn’t Clinton write for her a false affidavit that she presented to the grand jury? Didn’t wild Willie Clinton conduct from the Oval Office, the highest level of the United States Government, an entire attempt to obstruct justice and lie? Bill Clinton did lie under oath. Clinton was the president of the United States, and he was not indicted. Clinton had his law license suspended, was disbarred from the Supreme Court for a number of years from trying cases or working at the Supreme Court as a lawyer, and fined $850,000.
And for Rugrat, he is his hero!!!
Looks like rugass is hiding. Typical. Come out rugass and get your beating. You have an ass kicking coming to you.
Rufus: Rugrat602 is scouring the Internet for some pithy comeback. He is checking what Clinton really did because rugrat602 realized he was caught with his pants down AGAIN!!!
Oh blah blah blah.
You stupid shits got nuthin’.
You think you’re so fucking smart…you’re idiots.
These assholes you like so much, they’re stealing from your grandchildren and great grandchildren. But of course you don’t care. The neo-clown mantra…I got mine, so don’t fuck with me.
Rugrat come up with somethng original.
I think most men would lie about a consensual affair, even under oath, if they were married to a ballbuster like Hilary. Even though what Clinton did was stupid, I always felt sorry for him. Here he is, leader of the free world, and he is reduced to getting a knobjob from a fat chick. JFK got Marilyn Monroe!!
At any rate, defending Bush by dredging up Clinton is a ridiculous comparison. Clinton has been out of office almost five years. If the only defense Bush supporters have to the mess he has gotten us into is to argue that Clinton was worse, they’re losing the argument. Libby’s indictment is not going to pull down this administration, and Rove may even skate. However, it is one more in a series of screw ups that Bush has to deal with; Katrina, Harriet Meirs, record profits by oil companies while we get screwed by record high gas prices. Bush’s popularity is dropping like a rock. Kowtowing to the Neanderthal wing of the GOP is not going to improve things.
Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald did not find evidence to prove that there was a “broad conspiracy to out a covert agent for political gain. He did not find evidence of wide-ranging criminal behavior. He did not even indict the media’s ordained villain, Karl Rove,” writes David Brooks in Sunday’s NY TIMES.
“Leading Democratic politicians filled the air with grand conspiracy theories that would be at home in the John Birch Society.”
“Why are these people so compulsively overheated?.. Why do they have to slather on wild, unsupported charges that do little more than make them look unhinged?
Brooks quotes from an essay written 40 years ago by Richard Hofstadter called “The Paranoid Style in American Politics.”
Hofstadter argued that sometimes people who are dispossessed, who feel their country has been taken away from them and their kind, develop an angry, suspicious and conspiratorial frame of mind. It is never enough to believe their opponents have committed honest mistakes or have legitimate purposes; they insist on believing in malicious conspiracies.
“The paranoid spokesman,” Hofstadter wrote, “sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms — he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization.” Because his opponents are so evil, the conspiracy monger is never content with anything but their total destruction.”
Brooks summarizes: “So some Democrats were not content with Libby’s indictment, but had to stretch, distort and exaggerate. The tragic thing is that at the exact moment when the Republican Party is staggering under the weight of its own mistakes, the Democratic Party’s loudest voices are in the grip of passions that render them untrustworthy.”
From Fitzgerald’s press conference. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Q: Did Libby know whether Valerie Wilson’s identity was covert?
A: …We have not made any allegation that Libby knowingly/intentionally outed a covert agent.
ID(IOT)GAF:
Spare us the “paranoid style” comparisons. Boring and trite. The Bush regime is crooked and dishonest and makes Nixon’s look like a bunch of amateurs. Those clowns are an embarrassment. It’s obvious to anyone who hasn’t drunk the Kool-Aid.
Brooks is a hack and a liar. Of course, you’d quote him. Birds of a feather and all that.
idgaf
See the post at 168 and my response at 175. Brooks’ article is par for the course — that’s what pundits are going to do. The article I’ve linked to also predicts comments (like Cornyn’s this morning) as to be fully expected. Of course we all want to know what’s going on, but they’re clearly making comments in the context of an ongoing investigation. The President takes this investigation seriously; nobody wants to get to the bottom of this matter more than the President of the United States, and our… Oops, sorry, I’m channeling Scotty.
IDGAF,
You and other folks from the right continue to be so caught up on looking at the trees as to fail to see the forrest. That’s fine, I suppose, but the following facts remain completely undisputed:
1) Evidence of Iraq’s attempts to obtain uranium was beyond sketchy–a single source based on documents that were obviously forged.
2) Members of the Bush administration knew that the evidence was horribly weak, knew so as well before January of 2003.
3) President Bush, despite the ridiculously paltry nature of the evidence and over CIA objections, nevertheless referred to Iraq’s attempts to obtain uranium in his January 2003 State of the Union address.
You do the math.
Too bad Rick that every single point you make has been refuted. Mostly by the bipartisan Senate Intelligence commitee and by British goverment and intelligence services. You are nothing more than a clear example of stuck on stupid or willingly ignorant as you just keep repeating falacies. Ive done the math and 2 + 2 +4 unlike the liberal equation that says it’s approximately 6.
IDGAF,
Both the Senate Intelligence committe and the British government relied on the same forged documents that the Bush administration used. Not sure how you can dispute the evidence using the evidence itself, but that’s fine with me if you want to chase your tail on this one.
@190 Both the Senate Intelligence committe and the British government relied on the same forged documents that the Bush administration used.
There was a forged document, but everyone knew it was forged and no one relied on it. There is the simple fact that we found yellowcake uranium by the tons in Baghdad…I’m kind of guessing that the stories that say Iraq was seeking to find yellowcake uranium are true.
@188 Is it possible that the CIA was looking for someone else to blame for their horrible embarrassment about being wrong about WMDs? It was, in fact, the CIA that said that WMDs in Iraq was a “slam dunk.”
192
It was George Tenet who claimed this would be a “slam dunk”; there was apparently considerable consternataion amongst rank-and-file CIA analysts, as well as among the community of retired intelligence professionals.
Don’t expect a joyride from Scooter, Dems
Best line in the article:
“Just for the record, Scooter Libby is the highest-ranking Scooter in the Bush administration, chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. All last week, lefty gloaters were eagerly anticipating “Fitzmas,” their designation for that happy day when federal prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald hands down indictments against Libby, and Rove, and maybe Cheney, and — boy oh boy, who knows? — maybe Chimpy Bushitlerburton himself. Pat Fitzgerald has been making his list, checking it twice, found out who’s naughty or nice, and he’s ready to go on a Slay Ride leaving Bush the Little Drummed-Out Boy and the Dems having a blue blue blue blue blue-state Christmas in November 2006, if not before.”
OOPS! I guess the Merry Fitzmas you fringies were salivating about didn’t quite work out the way you hoped!
Awwwww.
Michael,
Actually, we already knew that Iraq had tons of unrefined uranium. Read Kenneth Pollack’s stuff. He had the most cogent argument in favor of invading Iraq, and even he thought that doing so in Feb./March of 2003 was too early.
The specific claim that Bush made was that Iraq had been trying to obtain uranium in defiance of UN resolutions, i.e. that Saddam was doing this after he’d kicked UN weapons inspecters out of Iraq. At least this is what the claim implied. If this isn’t what Bush meant in his January state of the union address, then the claim has no bearing on the stance that Iraq posed an immanent threat to the United States.
In that light, one of the reasons to discount any claims that Iraq had been trying to obtain uranium from Niger was the fact that he’d already had tons of the stuff. What was lacking was the means to refine it into weapons grade material.
@197 So it was ok for Iraq to have yellowcake uranium, but it would have been a violation for them to obtain yellowcake uranium?
@50 But Libby isn’t playing baseball. He compromised national security. He was a chief conspirator in a scheme to start a war on false premises. He is complicit in the deaths of 2,000 U.S. soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
Gee, I could have swore it was the CIA, not Libby, who said nukes in Iraq was a “slam dunk.” Who was manipulating whom?
Michael,
You’re asking the wrong question. It’s an established fact that Iraq had tons of unrefined uranium at the time President Bush was standing in front of Congress saying that Iraq was trying to acquire more. Why was it necessary for President Bush to claim that Iraq was trying to acquire that which everyone knew Iraq already had?
Why do the Democrats say that Bush decieved them if Iraq already have alot of uranium, and it wasn’t really important. If you want to say the “16 words” were meaningless, I would tend to agree with you. It is the left that is trying to make a big deal out of them.
Michael,
You’ve come so very close to hitting the nail on the head. The “16 words” were clearly deceptive in that they did not convey the truth. The only evidence to support them was a set of forged documents. I don’t know how you conclude that this wasn’t deceptive.
And, I do agree that those 16 words ought not to have been all that important, given that Iraq already had tons of unrefined uranium. However, it seems clear that the White House thought the claim to be important enough to insist on adding it to the President’s state of the union address over the objections of the CIA.
If the claim wasn’t all that important, then why did the White House get so dismayed when Joe Wilson debunked the claim? Why did that lead to the outing of Valerie Plame, and why, after all that, did Scooter Libby lie about where he heard that Valerie Plame was a CIA agent?
Clearly, something about the claim was important to the White House staff. The left didn’t dictate how the White House responded to the CIA’s objections or to Joe Wilson’s editorial.
The only evidence to support them was a set of forged documents.
You have your timeline wrong. The document which was later discovered to have been forged did not even exist at that time.
The documents first turned up in Rome in October of 2002, several months before Bush’s January 2003 state of the union address. Also, as Josh Marshall says, intelligence reports from as early as late 2001 to early 2002 were transcriptions of the same documents. Take a look at the last three paragraphs of this story in the LA Times.
“16 words” were clearly deceptive in that they did not convey the truth.
They were part of the deceptive, deafening drumbeat for war, drowning out all reason.
@203
“The DO reports officer told Committee staff that he did not provide the former ambassador with any information about the source or details of the original reporting as it would have required sharing classified information and, noted that there were no “documents” circulating in the IC at the time of the former ambassador’s trip, only intelligence reports from [Blanked out] intelligence regarding an alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal.”
–Senate Intelligence Committee report
@204
NSC staff contacted the CIA to clear another statement for use by the President. The statement said, “we also have intelligence that Iraq has sought large amounts of uranium and uranium oxide, known as yellowcake, from Africa. Yellowcake is an essential ingredient of the process to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons.” The CIA cleared the language, but suggested that “of the process” be changed to “in the process.”
–Senate Intelligence Committee report
@205 You are drunk from the neocon Kool-Aid. There was no way, no how that Saddam Hussein could make a thermonuclear weapon. Yellowcake is just a stable form of uranium so it doesn’t oxidize or become totally useless. It’s a long, long way from fissile material. Enrichment is an expensive, capital-intensive process.
The visions of “mushroom clouds” sold by Bush, Cheney and Rice were total lies meant to drum up hysteria and consent to a disastrous policy and you swallowed it!
With planes patrolling his southern and northern frontiers and economic sanctions in place, Saddam’s regime was no threat!
The visions of “mushroom clouds” sold by Bush, Cheney and Rice
Why leave out the Clinton appointee George “Slam Dunk” Tenet?
Enrichment is an expensive, capital-intensive process.
Saddam wasn’t exactly in the poor house.
Michael,
Your first paragraph doesn’t contradict what the LA Times reported, namely that intelligence reports that were circulating as early as late 2001 turned out to be transcriptions of the forged Niger documents.
As for your second paragraph, you left out the first part of the first sentence (which is on page 51 of the report):
Why did you leave out the first part of that sentence?
The visions of “mushroom clouds” sold by Bush, Cheney and Rice were total lies meant to drum up hysteria and consent to a disastrous policy and you swallowed it!
This coming from the party in charge of protecting us from North Korea in the 90’s. Hehehehehe
207 You’re disingenuous as demonstrated in 208. The evidence was clear – Saddam was no threat.
Yes, George “Slam Dunk” Tenet should be included on that list. In his famous meeting with Bush he crossed the line from being an intelligence professional to a political advocate – all to stay part of the “team”.
For that, Bush gave him a medal. Later, Tenet admitted that “slam dunk” were the two dumbest words he ever spoke.
Here’s a perspective.
Did any of you watch the piece on 60 Minutes tonight? I’m wondering how the actions of Novak et al. would not constitute treason. Please don’t bring up the “not-a-NOC” argument, since that is even more patently false after the statements given on the program tonight.
DOOFUS – Nice to know that Lewis “Liar” Libby is your role model.
212
No Libby should go down if he did what he did. I am not a hypocrite like you or most of left. Questions for you Clueless, should have Clinton resigned for lying to a grand jury? Yes or No question.
DOOFUS – you’re a crap-flinger – don’t go holier than thou on me. It’s really laughable.
Whatever Clinton did on the stand in front of the grand jury (neither of us was there and AFAIK neither of us are lawyers) he was totally exonerated for by the Senate.
Screw you and your silly yes and no questions.
You may now return to crap-flinging.
Actually, Cluless, Clinton’s lie to the grand jury wasn’t perjury. His particular lie didn’t involve a material fact. That’s why he was only disbarred, and even that wasn’t a permanent disbarment.
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From Puddybud above:
Regarding Clinton case, it was more than sex. Didn’t a federal judge cite Clinton for lying under oath? Didn’t Clinton get caught suborning perjury on the part of Monica Lewinsky? Didn’t Clinton write for her a false affidavit that she presented to the grand jury? Didn’t wild Willie Clinton conduct from the Oval Office, the highest level of the United States Government, an entire attempt to obstruct justice and lie? Bill Clinton did lie under oath. Clinton was the president of the United States, and he was not indicted. Clinton had his law license suspended, was disbarred from the Supreme Court for a number of years from trying cases or working at the Supreme Court as a lawyer, and fined $850,000.
I hate to cut and paste but you donks are dense.
DOOFUS – you’re a crap-flinger – don’t go holier than thou on me.
What is holier than now crap come from. You tell a donk the truth and he scolds you for being holy.
Rufus,
You apparently missed the point that Clinton’s lie wasn’t perjury, because the lie didn’t involve a material fact. Puddy’s claims notwithstanding, he was just flat out wrong.
Then what was the material fact in Libby’s case. He was not charged with violating national secutity, was he? If he and the Bush adminstation did nothing wrong where is the material fact he lied about?
Rufus,
Libby claimed that he learned of Valerie Plame’s employment from the reporters with whom he’d been discussing Joe Wilson’s trip to Niger, when, in fact, he’d learned about it through people who had similar security clearance to his own. This fact is material, because Libby’s source for the information determines whether or not he should have known that Valerie Plame’s employment was classified information.
Your second premise assumes a fact not in evidence. We, as yet, don’t know if he or other members of the Bush administration did anything wrong. A far better question would be, if Libby and or other members of the Bush administration did nothing wrong, then why did Libby lie about it?
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Could he have forgotten like Hillary? I don’t know. I am loving this. The more information we get the more this looks like over zealous prosecutors and the press trying to pin false charges on Bush. I want this to go to trial. I know Libby will get a good lawyer and some real questions will be asked. Who knows in a couple months this Merry Fitzmas may turn into April fools.
And yes I do believe there is a connection between Joe Wilson going to Niger and his vife Valerie Plame working for the CIA.
“Could he have forgotten like Hillary?”
Hillary didn’t actually lie. As the investigator in travel gate noted, there was reason to believe that she wasn’t aware of the weight her own remarks would carry with respect to employment in the White House travel office.
As for whether or not this turns into April fools, it would seem that you haven’t actually read the indictment. It’s not a pretty thing if you happen to be a backer of the current administration.
Hillary didn’t actually lie about the rose law firm billing records. Huh. OK! Yes I did read the indictment and in order to prove that Mr. Libby lied the prosecution will have to define what he lied about. This is where you donks are fucked if Libby gets a good lawyer. There will be a lot of questions.
Hillary didn’t actually lie.
Yeah, what she did was totally different than a lie. Her testimony was “factually false” and her actions were “contrary to her testimony in the matter.” :)
Rufus,
Well, you can’t be referring to the location of the billing records, because Hillary wasn’t called before the a Grand Jury until they’d been produced.
As for the substance of her testimony before the Grand Jury, the difference of opinion on the matter lies in the subjective interpretation of the meaning of the phrase “significantly involved in the representation of.” That’s a subjective issue, not a matter of fact, so she can’t possibly have lied about it. It’s a matter of opinion.
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On a legal basis you are totally right. On a political basis, well lets say you are over your head in shit.
Rufus,
If I have any shit around me, it’s only because you keep throwing it at me. Now, if you actually threw something that had substance to it…
So keeping billing records that were sought by the investigator in her personal bedroom was not obstruction of justice? Or is obstruction of justice defined differently from one administration to the next?
Michael,
If there had been anything anyone even thought they could prove to a jury, then Hillary would have been indicted. Since she wasn’t indicted, you’re just throwing shit like Rufus.
Nice try, but Libby’s indictment remains a rather historical event. No amount of shit you can throw will obscure that fact.
Historic? Is it historic that only one of Bush’s staffers has been indicted?
Michael,
It’s historic that any White House staffer has been indicted. How long has it been since that last happened?
To answer my own question, the last time a White House staff member was indicted while still in office (quite a few have been indicted after they resigned) appears to have been Orville Babcock in 1875.
Whether or not they had already resigned when the indictment came down is immaterial. I would count it if the were still on the staff when they committed the crime, like Mike Espy, Clinton’s Agriculture Secretary, Henry Cisneros, Clinton’s Housing Secretary, etc. Also Clinton himself, an impeachment is technically an indictment.
Bobblehead-114
Talk about cherry-picking. The British intelligence that Bush referred to in the “16 words” was based on two sources prior to the forged document. To this day they stand by that intelligence, and in fact say that Wilson’s trip confirmed it for them. Even the Butler report confirms that the intelligence assessment was not based on the forged document and that it held well at the start of the war.
Iraq already having tons of yellowcake means nothing. If he was going to restart production he could not use existing stockpiles that were under UNSCOM/IAEA inspection.
I agree that Wilson’s wife, or at least her name and relation, did not need to be brought out. Wilson’s lies were enough to sink him. Why though, would he lie about her involvement? Note that the WH intentions were not to smear Wilson, but to expose his lies. Exposing his wife, however illegal, etc., did not “smear” Wilson. I have seen nothing reported that would constitute smearing. His lies are well documented so exposing them is not a smear.
By the way – your first link crashed my browser.
‘If Wilson’s Op-ed piece was a steaming pile of crap, they could have brought those people out and have them tell the press what Wilson really said.’
I do not doubt what Wilson said is refelected in his OpEd. (Other than the confirmation regarding Traq seeking to restart business relations.) Wilson was a pawn of factions in the CIA, who like Plame, wanted to battle the WH on this topic. I think history will show that the whole CIA battle with the WH was to cover their butts on the miserable failures related to intelligence related to WMDs and Al Qaeda throughout the 90’s. Time will tell.
OOPS… be careful what you wish for, fringies!
Democrats lashing at indicted Cheney aide need to recall President Clinton’s questionable pardon of a Libby client
damned cheap ASS filter
I do not doubt what Wilson said is refelected in his OpEd.
What he said in his debriefing to the CIA was that Iraqis had came to Niger and said that they were interested in “expanding commerce,” which to them could mean only one thing, their chief export and the one Iraq was most interested in, uranium. This is exactly the opposite of what he said in his op-ed. The fact is the CIA and the Bush administration thought that Wilson’s CIA debriefing actually strengthened their case that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger.
Michael,
You’re confusing the difference between “fact” and “opinion” again. Wilson’s statements are completely consistent in that he has acknowledged that the Iraqi Ambassador to the Vatacan was on a trip centered on “expanding commerce,” and was even completely above board in noting that the purpose of this trip was very likely an effort to suss out any possibility of purchasing Uranium.
Wilson’s point is that this observation, in and of itself, is meaningless without also lookinig at the likelihood that the Iraqis would actually succeed in doing so. You can “seek” to lift your car off the ground using the pinky finger of your weakest hand, but that doesn’t mean there is really a credible effort to lift your car.
What Wilson said in is OpEd piece is that there are specific reasons to believe that it simply was not possible for the Iraqis to have had a credible hope of obtaining uranium from Africa. The details of that opinion are based on classified information that is the substance of Wilson’s report to the CIA. For Wilson to divulge those details would have been a violation of the same law that led to Libby’s indictment.
But, by all means, keep up with this tactic of comparing differing opinions for the purpose of saying that someone is lying. It’s particularly usefull when the opinions of the person you want to smear are based on classified information. I’m rather certain that at least a handful of kool-aid drinkers won’t catch the dishonest nature of this kind of smear job, but people who actually engage their brains will see the smear job for what it is. The overall result of this tactic is that you lose credibility.
It is quite apparent that you have not read the Senate Intelligence Committee report on this matter. Most of my material is coming directly from there. If you see that as a smear, you should take it up with the Senate Intelligence Committee, you know, John Edwards and those guys.
Michael & Rufus: Read, why should a lefty read when conjecture and personal thoughts trump real information? It’s not their way to debate. Feelings, nothing more than feelings.
Rufus: you can cut and paste my correct information any day you want. Donks are blind to the truth.
Rick, how do we lose credibility? We use the bi-partisan Senate Report, the same report your side likes to trump so much. BTW you said: “What Wilson said in is OpEd piece is that there are specific reasons to believe that it simply was not possible for the Iraqis to have had a credible hope of obtaining uranium from Africa.” So are you finally admitting that Saddam was trying? Seems that’s the commentary to me!!!
Puddy and Michael,
You’re still conflating the distinction between a statement of fact and an interpretation of a collection of facts. The Senate Select Committe’s report is an interpretation of the collection of facts. They can’t cite the facts directly, because those facts are classified information. They constitute the substance of Joe Wilson’s report to the CIA.
Now, let’s think about this. The Senate Select Committee’s interpreation of the facts differs from Joe Wilson’s interpretation of the facts. The question of bias is irrelevant. The question of competence is germane. The Senate Select Committe is a bunch of elected officials. Joe Wilson is a career diplomat with years of experience in the Middle East. Who is more qualified to interpret the facts in Wilson’s report?
This is the basis of the right’s smear campaign against Joe Wilson: take an interpretation of the facts by a bunch of people who are barely qualified to interpret Wilson’s report, stack that against Wilson’s own interpretation of his report, and use the lesser qualified interpretation to declare Joe Wilson a liar. If you don’t see that for the complete bullshit that it is, then you’ve lost all credibility. All you’re doing is spewing the RNC party line without giving a single ounce of critical thought to what acutally forms the basis of that party line. Might as well hang a sign that says “RNC Hack!” in your forehead, because that’s all you are.
I am a career intelligence gatherer. Joe Wilson is not. Being a career diplomat is no qualification for being a good gatherer or analyst. By the way, most intelligence gatherers are not good analysts, myself included. You simply don’t understand your own context without knowing the big picture. Joe Wilson didn’t know the big picture.
Thanks for your activities!