Darryl at Hominid Views takes a break from his family vacation to report on the partial collapse of the Dunn Memorial Bridge in upstate New York.
As Darryl points out…
The relevance to the Seattle area is obvious. The Dunn Memorial Bridge was built in 1971; the Alaska Way Viaduct (AWV) was built in the late 1950s. Dunn was inspected a couple of years ago and rated a 5 out of 7 for safety. The AWV has had widely recognized safety problems since the Nisqually earthquake of 2001.
No one was injured or killed, but had the top deck collapsed entirely, it could have taken two other levels with it to the bottom of the Hudson river, with catastrophic consequences for people on the bridge, and the economy of the region. As it is, there are no estimates of when the bridge will reopen.
Will Seattle be so lucky when (not, if) the AWV fails? Let’s hope so, because the Viaduct is a double-decker structure, a collapse of one section could result in a chain reaction, leading to the deaths of hundreds of people. Even a partial collapse similar to that in Albany would result in traffic mayhem in Seattle. Interstate 5 would pick up the majority of the 100,000 plus vehicles that use the roadway on a daily basis, contributing to what is already one of the worse traffic problems in the nation.
Of course, I-912 would repeal funds for replacing the AWV, as well as dozens of other projects throughout the state intended to fix unsafe intersections, interchanges and other sections of roads with a history of accidents and fatalities. But even if we dodge the bullet of a catastrophic AWV collapse….
People will die if I912 passes
Goldy:
‘I call it the cold, hard truth.’
Why are you not calling for it to be shut down? Is there an acceptable loss of lives balancing out the convenience of leaving it open?
Nice try Goldy, but it isn’t going to work. Here’s what has to happen:
1) There must be one transportation management office with leaders who are accountable to The People of Washington. No more arrogant elitist thugs like Ron Sims or Cindy Laws or Christine Gregoire.
2) We need to have one integrated plan that works. No more piecemeal projects that aren’t linked. The projects need to be based on sound tranportation engineering principles. We need to hear from licensed engineers… steel and concrete guys… how the projects will actually fix the transportation problem. There needs to be recognition that the American culture is a car based culture. America isn’t europe or Asia, and solutions that work in those cultures aren’t going to work here. Simply put, we need to pour more concrete for roads to carry cars. Not trains or monorails or carpool lanes or bike trails or any of that other crap. We need freeways that are 12 lanes in each direction, with dynamically priced Lexus Lanes so that the producers and bill payers can get where we need to be.
3) Put together one financing package that pays for everything. Tell us the total bill, and put together a single tax package that completely pays for all the projects. No more “risky and ill advised” financing schemes like the monorail.
4) Hire competent people to engineer and manage the projects. Not university professors, politicans and environmentalists. Enigneers and MBAs with experience in managing large and small projects need to be in charge.
5) The laws governing transportation projects must be completely revamped with an emphasis on getting the job done. No more back room deals with union thugs to just to provide jobs and line the pockets of union leaders. We must hire contractors based on their ability to do the job and their costs, and not on the pigment and plumbing of the business owners. Repeal the goofiest of the environmental laws
5) Let The People vote on the entire transportation solution in its entirety. We need a vote on the projects, the financing, the managers, and the laws. Do not declare an emergency before we have voted, and do not bond the money before The People have given their permission
Hey Mark:
Fuck you, and fuck you hard! You’re not qualified to pass judgment on projects, financing, managers, and laws. You’re just a dumb fucking redneck gomer who doesn’t want to spend any money and doesn’t want to get anything done.
Nothing anybody in transportation does will satisfy you and your lot. If they build four lanes, it won’t be good enough because they should have built six. If they build HOV lanes, that won’t be good enough because in your mind, there shouldn’t *be* HOV lanes.
You want nonunion contractors, paying minimum wage, and nothing else will satisfy you. Go fuck yourself, go move to Bumfuck, Kansas, and take Sharkansky, Chardonnay, the rest of your flat earth, free lunch, freeloader morons with you.
We’ll get this thing built with you or without you, and you will pay prevailing wage, too, bitches.
Go Ivan, Go!!!!
1) Nonsense. WSDOT is accountable to the people – through the elected representatives of the state of Washington. If you don’t like them, elect someone else. You definition of thug is interesting – Dino Rossi had some pretty sharp elbows on his way to the top and the people hurt were Republicans.
2)Car based culture needs to change or at least evolve. It’s destroying America economically and diminishing it throughout the world.. The more road you lay the faster it fills up with cars. Look at L.A. – is that what you want?
3) Monorail again. Didn’t the financing plan fail? The system worked.
4) Provide examples of university professors, politicians and environmentalists “engineering” and “managing” approved projects. MBA’s? What are you on?!?
5) Robert Moses believed in getting the job done as well. Examples of goofy environmental laws? GMA maybe?
5 [sic]) Wow what a ringing endorsement of what our founding fathers had in mind.
Way to go, Ivan. Couldn’t have put it any better.
I’m tired of this “accountability” crap. You’re ALWAYS GOING TO BE SAYING THAT WE’LL NEED MORE ACCOUNTABILITY!!!
Mr. McDonald has taken WSDOT to new heights. They’re a very effective agency now. I don’t want to hear any more about “accountability” – we already have that.
This is about our health, our safety – our future. We can’t sit back and do nothing just because people are ignorant. We can’t wait for a disaster to strike.
We need freeways that are 12 lanes in each direction, with dynamically priced Lexus Lanes so that the producers and bill payers can get where we need to be.
Where exactly do you propose putting these 12 lane freeways? Should we knock over a whole bunch of highrises in downtown Seattle? Or in downtown Bellevue? An 8 lane 520 floating bridge is going to be in the billions — how much do you think a 24 lane bridge will cost? $15 billion? And how exactly do you propose paying for them? You’d probably have to raise the gas tax to about $5 a gallon to pull that off — and yet you’re bitching about 9 cents now.
The rest of your post is equally asinine.
“Mark,”
Please find another name to post under. “marks” and I have been posting here longer than you have and don’t need anyone looking like they speak for either of us.
In this case, however, I have to agree with many of your points. I think money SHOULD be spent (even if from a gas tax) on road & ferry work. HOWEVER, there needs to be much more accountability and a much tighter leash on costs. I’m sick and tired of projects that start off as “only 2 years and $1 billion” to complete and end up as “5 years and $3 billion.”
Ivan, you should just go move back in with Uncle Joe. You know even less than “Mark” about anything other than collecting an overinflated union paycheck for a job
wellnot done.rujax: “Go Ivan, Go!!!!” Yes. Choose one: 1) to hell 2) #@$% yourself or 3) simply “away.”
MOH @ 5: “I’m tired of this “accountability” crap.”
Of course you are. Otherwise you could grease the right union palms.
Ever wonder why nobody resigns or gets fired in the public sector when projects go WAAAYYY over budget or WAAYY over their projected completion date?
We don’t need the AWV to be another “Big Dig.”
My previous post seems to have been hung up somehow, so…
“Mark” @ 2
Please find another nick. “marks” and I have both been posting here longer than you and would prefer not to have someone else’s opinions attributed to us.
That said, I have to agree with many of your points. I think we DO need the AWV fixed/replaced. I also think there are a number of road and ferry projects that need attention. BUT there has to be an end to the inevitable cost overruns and completion date extensions.
Ivan, why don’t you just go move back in with Uncle Joe? The only thing you know more about the subject than “Mark” is how to collect an overinflated union paycheck for a job
wellnot done.Ivan, you godamn union hack, stand aside so the real backbone of the US, the “nonrepresented” worker. The ones that do the job without whining to their shop steward. It is amazing that union jobs ever get completed…
Build it and put a toll on it — just like the Narrows Bridge. If it’s good enough for the Peninsula, it’s good enough for Seattle.
Moonbats – None of you have proposed anything. Do you think dumping more money down the existing rat holes is a good idea? Can any of you come up with an original thought? Or are you just interested in lining your own pockets? Do you really think The People are so stupid that they’ll allow billions more of our money to be wasted?
912 will pass by 20 to 25 points, and Gregoire will spend the next 3 years as a lame duck.
Mark @ 2
It is clear to me that you have no idea what the transportation legislation says. Read the fucking legislation before spouting such bullshit. In the first place you will learn that the gas tax increase is not about the Alaska Way Viaduct or the 520 Floating Bridge. There are hundreds of other projects that would be fully funded.
These two monster projects are so expensive that they require additional resource stream. Delaying a revenue stream by repealing the gas tax increase will simply make the problem worse. And now it will jepordize hundreds of millions of federal dollars in federal highway funding.
Further evidence of your complete ignorance of this project is invoking Simms and the Monorail. These issues are irrelevant. Read the fucking legislation!
Let’s see. . . you want competent decision making for transportation and then you want a fucking vote of the people on it? That is mixing engineering with politics. Only a complete moron would propose such an idiotic thing!
The Real Mark @ 7
“Ever wonder why nobody resigns or gets fired in the public sector when projects go WAAAYYY over budget or WAAYY over their projected completion date?”
You are spewing bullshit, my friend. Public transportation projects do not typically go over budget. Read the DOT quarterly reports. Yes, there are occasional projects that go over budget or get delayed. Most projects lately have been underbudget and on time or early.
Try to read up on the facts a little before posting such nonsense.
DISCLAIMER:
The person posting as “Mark” isn’t me — who has posted as “Mark” long before this other person.
“Mark,” please find a new posting name.
Thanks.
OK. I’ll change my post name. All you “tolerant” and “moderate” moonbats please spew all your hate to “Mark The Redneck”.
John – Take a look at the monorail board. Professors, pols and wackos all. http://www.elevated.org/project/board/members/
These are large technical projects. Adults must be in charge. Engineers and MBAs (or Engineers with MBA degrees) are the only ones who know how to manage such things.
America is a car based culture. That’s not going to change. Ever. We’re not a bunch of stupid state nations in europe. It’s a big country. We need to get around. You moonbats can dream of mass transit, but it’s never gonna work here. NEVER.
Until money is spent on widening the freeways that 95% of us use, the money ain’t gonna flow. It’s that simple.
Moonbats – Take each of my points one at a time, and prove me wrong.
1) Why not have one office that manages and integrates everything. Why not have professional technical people in charge?
2) Explain why we should NOT have integrated solutions that work. Explain why a standalone monrail is a good idea. Explain why trains from nowhere to nowhere are a good idea.
3) Tell me why we shouldn’t be honest with ourselves and understand the total cost to fix the whole thing.
4) Explain why we shouldn’t have technical people, businessmen, and project management professionals running the biggest public works projects in Washington States history. Explain why university professors with zero experience like those on the monorail should be in chage.
5) Explain why those of us who pay the bills… us “rich” guys that are so hated by you moonbats… should not get the final say.
I’m waiting…
Right on Mark the Redneck!!
These LEFTIST PINHEADS have NO SHAME!!!
Chicken Littles…one & all.
The Seattle LEFTIST PINHEADS will go to all ends in order to get others to pay for the beautification of the Seattle Waterfront by getting the rest of us to pay for the AWV.
Bad try Assholes===NO SALE!!
I gave you the financing plan previously.
$220 Million from FEDS
$1 Billion from Gas Tax.
The balance from Tolls and Seattle Bond Financing for beautication part.
Yet these LEFTIST PINHEADS persist with there fear-mongering tactics.
Gregoire and the Dems have overused the term “EMERGENCY”.
Mark is right….if it’s as bad as Goldy implies, shut the AWV down IMMEDIATELY!!! Otherwise those in power are 100% responsible if it collapses.
Did I remember to tell you LEFTIST PINHEADS to all get fucked??
Just in case I forgot FUCK YOU ASSHOLES!
dj @ 15
Two words: BIG DIG
Yes, I know it is in Boston, not here. However, 60% of the money to pay for it ($4 billion present-day-dollar budget, $14.6 billion final cost) was federal — my hard-earned tax dollars.
dj: “Read the DOT quarterly reports.”
Fox guarding the henhouse. Take a look at the Governor’s GMAP initiative. In some agencies, the program managers themselves determine what constitutes a good and efficient job. You think they’re going to write ANYTHING that risks getting them fired (or, more likely, simply reassigned to someplace they can do less damage)?
They haven’t used the word “emergency” nearly as much as California’s Flabinator.
Ah, the sweet sounds of serious debate of a serious issue on a Lefty site. There are enough “F” words to fill about 10 minutes on Kos. And Goldy wonders why he hasn’t gotten any offers for Talk Radio. And the Lefties wonder why they keep getting fitted for Tinfoil Hats.
My barber, who is otherwise a Hard Leftist, got five petitions completely filled out and submitted to repeal 912.
Paying taxes is not the issue. Spending those revenues rationally is the issue.
Voters rejected a Stadium, so the Legislature declared an “Emergency” and built one anyway. The users did not want a “new” Tacoma Narrows Bridge with the same two lanes in each direction for an added toll, plus bicycle lanes, pedestrian lanes, artwork, bus lanes, and toll booths, but it was forced on them.
The Viaduct and the 520 (Evergreen Point Floating Bridge) are convenient commuter routes. I-5 and I-90 are serious freight traffic routes.
When reading or listening or watching the dominant state media, the only thing ever mentioned are Seattle projects. If there is something for other places in the State except Seattle, why won’t they talk about it? Goldy has focused on Seattle. This is a winning strategy when 1/3 of the voters are in King County?
If the issue is commuting, change the work hours. What if a few Banks and Gov’t offices opened at 7am or earlier? Not everyone needs to be at work at 8am. Bank Holidays (usually Gov’t Holidays as well) have very light commutes. Vary the work hours.
Come up with a comprehensive and coherent plan to fix what needs fixing, and cover the entire State. Explain why tolls for the Olympic Peninsula are OK but not for 520 or the Viaduct.
Swearing at your opponents and calling them names is truly a “reality based community” solution. My barber will really appreciate it.
any taxpayer is qualified to judge…don’t like it? good, I’ll take my money back please thank you very much. Its that attitude “pay up and shut up” that passes initiatives thru everytime….so hey keep it up.
Moonbats – It’s been almost two hours now. Take me down point by point on comment 18.
I’m still waiting.
Thomas @ 22:
Judge all you want, and pass all the initiatives you want. The law allows you to. But sooner or later the roads have to get fixed, and the longer you hold it up the more it will cost you, cost Chuck, cost Mark, Mark S, and Mark the Redneck, cost Chardonnay, cost Terry J and his barber, cost Cynical, cost all the bloggers on SP, and cost all the horses you rode in on.
Call us pinheads, call us moonbats, call us any damn thing you want. The reality is you will pay now or pay more later.
And Chuck, it WILL be at prevailing wage, my little bitch.
Wingnut Redneck @ all
Terry J @ 21, You must be referring to the fould language and tinfoil hat” ideas coming from Mr Cyn-Irr @ 19. let me assure you that while he is nutty, rude, foul mouthed and devoid of ratiomnal thought.
He is far froem a “lefty”.
Your main point is thus dissolved, and you are left looking foolish.
Ever wonder why nobody resigns or gets fired in the public sector when projects go WAAAYYY over budget or WAAYY over their projected completion date?
Ever heard of Joel Horn? Or Bob White? There’s 2 people who quit when their projects went way over budget — and that only took me a second.
2) Explain why we should NOT have integrated solutions that work. Explain why a standalone monrail is a good idea. Explain why trains from nowhere to nowhere are a good idea.
First off, you’re sitting here saying that we should vote on everything. Then you say that the monorail, which was voter approved, is a bad idea.
So basically you’re saying that you want the people to decide, but the people are a bunch of idiots. Do you see the problem with your logic?
4) Explain why we shouldn’t have technical people, businessmen, and project management professionals running the biggest public works projects in Washington States history. Explain why university professors with zero experience like those on the monorail should be in chage.
They shouldn’t be. But the monorail has nothing to do with the gas tax. The gas tax will fund projects largely built by WA DOT, which has technical people and project management professionals running the projects. They’re doing things largely on time and under budget with the things they’re building now. So basically they’re doing exactly what you want them to do.
So why are you bitching?
Until money is spent on widening the freeways that 95% of us use, the money ain’t gonna flow. It’s that simple.
Just so I have this straight: you are in favor of an initiative that will prevent the state from spending money to widen freeways. But for the state to get more money to widen freeways, you say they need to widen freeways. Even though you’re going to make sure they don’t widen freeways.
It’s pretty clear that logic isn’t a particular strong suit of yours.
Ivan and rest of Moonbats – I think you misunderstand us. We know it’s going to cost billions of dollars to fix 25+ years of mismanagment by democrat moonbats in Olympia.
Our point is that:
We’re tired of having our money wasted on stupid projects.
We want our money spent on projects that actually reduce freeway congestion. Not just a little bit, but significantly shorten travel times.
We want our money’s worth.
We must have adults in charge.
Explain why tolls for the Olympic Peninsula are OK but not for 520 or the Viaduct.
There will definitely be tolls on the 520 bridge, and there will probably be tolls on the viaduct. If you’re going to make an argument, you should be aware of the facts.
I think you misunderstand us. We know it’s going to cost billions of dollars to fix 25+ years of mismanagment by democrat moonbats in Olympia.
What exactly have the Republicans done during that time? Their sum total of transportation proposals in the last 25 years is one thing: Referendum 49, which directed the MVET to road construction. Then, one year later, they endorsed 695, which de-funded all of the R-49 projects. If you’re going to blame Demmocrats, that’s fine. But at least they’ve gotten some roads built in the last couple of decades. The GOP has done nothing but wreck their own plans.
We want our money spent on projects that actually reduce freeway congestion. Not just a little bit, but significantly shorten travel times.
Like what? What can DOT do to significantly shorten travel times around here? You seem to have all the answers — so tell us. And tell us how much it is going to cost, and how you will pay for it.
Knew it couldn’t be long before Mr. Irrelevant showed up to make another lame comment.
The problem with repeatedly calling someone a name, Irrelevant, is that it starts to stick to the name-caller….kind of like glue.
I guess that makes you “Mr. Pinhead”.
And I guess this is your kind of website:
http://www.zippythepinhead.com/
Head on over, and go ahead – don’t hold back – fuck yourself silly. You owe it to yourself, Mr. Pinhead.
Terry J
“Swearing at your opponents and calling them names is truly a “reality based community” solution. My barber will really appreciate it.”
Fuck you. If you cannot take the edgy dialog, then take you ass over to http://www.PuritansForBetterDoorKnobs.Com.
This kind of dialog existed on horsesass.org long before you decided to grace us with your presence.
Bax – What can DOT do to significantly shorten travel times around here?
It’s simple: Pour concrete.
Now it’s 3 hours and so far the only intelligent comment I got on comment 18 was that I’m right. The rest was just typical moonbat goofiness.
Nuf for today. I’m off to SP to get some intelligent comment.
For those of you in need of good “home training”, visit seattlerantDOTblogspotDOTcom
A few days ago on the posting (emotional response…emotional issue) @ 57, I posed my alternative to the transportation plan which came out of this legislative session. It is crude and very general, without specific numbers or research to back it. (Hey, I only have so many hours in my day).
I did not recieve any rebuttle to it, other than a bunch of people calling me a dumb redneck, F.U.s, Oh, gotcha, you spelt a word wrong, kinda comments.
I still ask, does anyone have anything to add, subtract, object to, that post? Does anyone else have any ideas of how we can fund transit, long term, in Washington. I think most of us agree that 30 years from now, a gas tax better not be our solution. I think all of us would hope gas is not our main fuel source by then.
@ 64 I posed a question that today’s post by Goldy makes me ask again. If the viaduct is ready to kill so many tragically, why isn’t WSDOT closing it down? I add, Why are HA regulars, not leading the charge on this effort? If we are all going to die, why don’t you try to save us now, and not in 10 years or whenever the project will be completed?
I’m gonna have to go with Yes on 912 especially because of the viaduct project. Neither a tunnel nor an elevated replacement is the right and best solution advocated by those wacky environmentalists at People’s Waterfront Coalition: just tear it down and reroute the traffic.
I’m not gonna explain it to ya, cuz you’ll just get all pissy, have a cow, get yer panties in a bunch, Leftys are pinhead, republicans are morons and all that. But, People’s Waterfront Coaltion are correct. Go figure.
Did anybody see WsDOT’s reroute plan? What a joke. It looks likeit was written to be understood by truckers and indecipherable for everyone else. Thanks a lot, WsDOT. NOT!
The amount of ignorance spouted here is nearly as astounding as the juvenile vulgarity used to put it forth.
Among many inaccuracies, the Monorail has NOTHING to do with WSDOT management. It is a Seattle initiative, barely passed. For the record, I’m a liberal environmentalist and I think it’s a stupid idea.
Next, did some of you actually read the initial comments from Goldy? Here’s how it ends:
Of course, I-912 would repeal funds for replacing the AWV, as well as dozens of other projects throughout the state intended to fix unsafe intersections, interchanges and other sections of roads with a history of accidents and fatalities. But even if we dodge the bullet of a catastrophic AWV collapse….
That safety comment is not about the viaduct, it’s about many other roadway needs.
It’s simple: Pour concrete.
Ah, I see now. You think DOT can magically print money, buy property for nothing, buy concrete for nothing, pay people nothing, and build in no time. Unless you don’t, in which case you can tell us which projects you think need to be done, how much they’ll cost, and how you’ll pay for them.
I won’t hold my breath for an answer, because it’s obvious that you’re not interested in anything involving facts or reality.
But, People’s Waterfront Coaltion are correct. Go figure.
No, they’re not. Unless you think I-5 should be gridlocked even more than it already is.
Bax@41
You never thanked me for the 300 signatures that I gathered for I-912. It is my estimation that after it passes, Gregoire will wake up to reality and realise that we insist on accountability from WSDOT. (and possibly that we didnt want her in office, but no matter as long as she wakes up). If you had done your part, you could be a part of the new Washington that is accountable to the taxpayer. As it is you are part of the very slugs we are trying to salt down….
Wingnut Mark the Redneck @ all
Drag your knuckles over to (un)SP and that miserable wet spot you call a blog.
A jackhammer couldn’t blast through that concrete block that passes for your head.
FUCK YOU!!!!!
Moonbat@44
You are a prime example of the “this is the way we do it because we have always done it this way” give me more tax money and I will fix it mentality.
Gleep – my father and step mother drive that bridge every morning.
I’m glad they’re in Tahiti right now :)
Larry Osterman@46
Ever hear about the boy who called wolf? The bridge is fine, just in need of repairs as well as updates…Seattle wants gold.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmp.....kercheaper
If Trump can do as he says (he usually does) what can he build a viaduct or 520 bridge for? We should ask him…at least then we would know where some of the money went.
Chuck @48 “If Trump can do as he says (he usually does) what can he build a viaduct or 520 bridge for? We should ask him…at least then we would know where some of the money went.”
Yeah, straight into Trump’s pocket. The company Trump used to build the viaduct wouldbe bankrupt, and unfinished.
Great idea, Chuck! Trump is the poster boy for irresponsible capitalism run-amok, right next to Enron and the Bush Crime Family.
Artie @ 39
The People’s Waterfront Coalition seems to have a good idea. We will have to re-route the traffic for at least seven to nine years under any re-build option. So why not re-route the traffic permanently and save several billion dollars?
We could use this money to widen I-5 to four lanes in each direction through downtown Seattle, which would eliminate an enormous amount of gridlock.
But seriously — if the AWV is as dangerous as people claim it is, why isn’t it shut down to traffic immediately?
And I am not sure that a limited access portion of SR 99 through downtown Seattle really increases capacity by an enormous amount. SR 99 is a surface street north of the viaduct, and is also a surface street for a stretch south of the viaduct.
Are there any studies on the effect of tearing down the AWV and replacing it with a surface route? I hope so, since that will be the reality for quite a few years (seven to nine), even if the AWV is replaced with another limited access (i.e. tunnel, viaduct, etc.) route.
Gregoire will wake up to reality and realise that we insist on accountability from WSDOT.
Accountability? You mean like performance audits? They’re doing that already. Or publishing their project delivery record? They’re doing that already. In fact, they’re typically delivering projects under budget and ahead of schedule. So basically they’re already doing what you say you want them to do.
But that’s okay. Because I know that “accountability” is really just a red herring for you. Because no matter what DOT does, you’ll never support a gas tax increase. I just wish you’d be honest about it, and acknowledge that you’re not in favor of building any more roads.
Richard Pope @ 50
“But seriously – if the AWV is as dangerous as people claim it is, why isn’t it shut down to traffic immediately?”
I am not sure that the AWV is as “dangerous as people claim.” It has safety problems that have been documented by engineers.
Why not shut it down? Every time you drive a car, you are increasing your risk of death. There are particular stretches of road and particular spots where you are more likely to die than other places. So, you question amounts to, “why not shut down all dangerous sections of road?”
Sure we could do that. Or we could improve the dangerous sections to make them safer. Apparently driving with some small increased risk is a personally and socially acceptable thing to do, and is economically necessary.
Here we are living in one of the best managed states, with a median state tax burdens. For the most part, Washingtonians have a pretty nice state, so why let it crumble in neglect? It seems irresponsible to ignore the end of life issues and safety issues and wait for AWV to collapse or 520 FB to sink. Why not improve sections of roadway with documented safety problems? We can afford it.
DJ @ 52
So you think the AWV problems can be solved with a few repairs, without tearing the whole thing down and taking seven to nine years to do a replacement? Then let’s go for it — maybe $100 million at the most to shore the structure up some more, and we save billions and years of chaos that a total replacement would cost.
Perhaps the same thing would work with the SR 520 FB. Beats spending billions to replace it with exactly the same number of lanes on a new bridge and the years of chaos that replacement would entail.
As for our tax burden, it is by far the most regressive of any state in the country. The gasoline tax is now the highest of any state in the country. Gasoline tax may be a user fee, but it is also a regressive tax. Perhaps an increase would be more popular if our whole structure wasn’t so damned regressive. But the extreme overall regressiveness of our tax structure will doom the gas tax increase to being voted down overwhelming in November.
Anyway, Goldy’s headline is sensationalism. I-912 will not cost lives. The only thing that MIGHT cost lives is keeping the AWV open. Close the AWV and that issue is eliminated. The only relevance I-912 has is whether the AWV would be replaced, with what, and how soon.
If 912 succeeds, where will we get the money to build that free landing strip for Boeing? You know who I mean, the company that knows all about the free-market and standing on their own two feet without government handouts.
re 24, Mark the Redheaded step-child:You’re asking people to prove a negative, which is impossible. Your points have already been refuted and now you are simply re-stating them and demanding that they be refuted in the negative/positive mode, which, while an excellent W.F. Buckley,jr. debating ploy, does nothing to further the discussion. Prove me wrong or shut-up.
‘The cold hard truth’ Yes, that’s true and you are using a scare tactic which is NOT going to work. It is also STILL King County’s fucking problem; I’ll be damned if the rest of us have to pay for it. Quit whining and figure out a better way to pay for it; assuming I-912 passes. Go 912 go! Thanks.
Pope @ 53:
Damn right the gas tax is regressive. We used to have a more progressive tax. It was called the Motor Vehicle Excise tax. That was the tax that said the larger and the more expensive a vehicle you drove, the more tax you had to pay.
That is the tax that the RIGHTIST WINGNUTS eliminated with I-695. So this is a mess you and your buddies created, and now you want to blame it on LEFTIST PINHEADS.
When some business leaves the state and takes jobs and tax revenues with it, the same imbeciles will rise up and complain that it is because we have a “bad business climate,” caused by too many taxes and too much regulation.
When Mt. St. Helens erupts again, the same right-wing noise machine will find a way to blame it on Governor Gregoire and LEFTIST PINHEADS.
So at some point, the roads will have to be built, and you and your right-wing buddies will pay for them, and still you will continue to whine.
You guys don’t want to solve any problems if it means you have to pay taxes to solve them. You have no sense of public responsibility. You think the alphabet begins with the letter “I” and that the musical scale begins with the note “mi.”
You might win a few here and win a few there, but ultimately we will move forward, and you will pay with the rest of us., because unlike you, we do not want Washington to become Mississippi.
To our “beloved” {snicker} loopy leftys:
“When People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders.” –Samuel Adams
As you, your party, and your ideology have proven so very aptly.
RP @ 53 “The gasoline tax is now the highest of any state in the country”
Richard, I would be interested in how you came up with that claim?
Really, Richard, your viability as a candidate may rest on the honesty of your answer.
I agree Goldy! Close down that viaduct now! Tear it down so no one gets hurt. In fact, so that people will never ever again be imperiled by that evil roadway, never ever let a replacement be built in its place. I feel safer already.
state highest national gas tax Check it out…that was before the increase
http://www.effwa.org/highlighters/v14_n21.php was what I meant
Sadly, Chuck, that is not the answer. The question is: Where did Richard P{ope get the information for this claim
“The gasoline tax is now the highest of any state in the country”
The thing you posted states that Washington State has the highest gas tax in the northwest. Sorry, again. Wrong answer.
But then, chuck, you would need to know how to read in order to figure that out.
Chuck & Mark & Richard–
These LEFTIST PINHEADS fail to accept that a dangerous AWV should be closed down immediately.
These LEFTIST PINHEADS know nothing about fiscal accountability. They are the blind sheep who believe higher taxes will solve all our problems.
These LEFTIST PINHEADS cannot see thru the special interest and bureaucratic pushing of this AWV debacle.
These LEFTIST PINHEADS are in love with the world. They cannot see beyond that.
These LEFTIST PINHEADS are selfish and stupid. They have no conscience and will gladly steal from the rest of the State so they can have an astheticly pleasing Seattle Waterfront at everyone else’s expense.
I gave these idiot’s an equitable financing plan that forces Seattle to bond or charge tolls for anything beyond the essentials to make the existing structure more safe.
I ask these LEFTIST PINHEADS….how safe is safe enough???
To what standard of safety do you hold the Viaduct?? Shouldn’t the thousands of buildings that would collapse long before the existing AWV be at least brought up to the AWV standard BEFORE any AWV project? Actually, shouldn’t all buildings be brought up to whatever reasonable safety standard you propose for the AWV BEFORE the AWV project begins???
These LEFTIST PINHEADS get “spoon-fed” capital project ideas by the ELITIST PINHEADS and swallow them hook, line & sinker. Talk about gullible LEFTIST PINHEADS!!!
Reply to 2
Reads like a list of terrorist demands.
Hey Mark, if your demands aren’t met, are you going to start killing the hostages 500 at a time until all 100,000 are dead?
Well, the bright side of I-912 is that we can look forward to the Maple Valley Highway continuing to reduce the population of rednecks who like to drive their pickup trucks fast.
It looks like Washington #4 in the nation in fuel taxes, behind NY, PA & WI. See:
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/mft070105.pdf
Bear in mind that you have to ADD another 18.4 cents per gallon for the federal tax. I’m not sure if you also add WA sales tax to that number or not.
Brainless Lucy and other moonbats – In comment 2, I laid out what has to happen in order for more billions to be given to fix the transportation problem.
Of course, there was little in the way of intelligent comment, although I didn’t expect there would be much from a group of moonbats.
All I am saying is that the money must be spent on actually fixing the problem and for that to happen we need adults in charge. Given the abysmal history of DOT, ST and SPMA, The People must have the final say on the whole thing.
Now tell me what’s wrong with that?
Actually, in November 2004, Washington State had the 10th highest gas tax. Given that the excise tax has increased to 31 cpg, and assuming that no other state has raised their excise tax, that would now put us as the 8th (tied with Rhode Island).
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibr.....4Final.pdf
Now Richard Pope, aspiring politician, where do you get the information for your claim:
“The gasoline tax is now the highest of any state in the country”
Or was this just a practice lie, to jump start your politacal career?
Bax and R Pope. The AWV was finished in 1950, not the “late 50’s” as Goldy stated. It’s design is nothing like the freeways which have collapsed during major earthquakes. Shoring it up is a reliable way to keep it in service indefinitely.
But, because rerouting traffic during any reconstruction will unavoidably involve I-5, we must consider how that can be accomplished. WsDOT does not consider the possiblilities by which traffic can be reduced in order to accommodate this rerouting; considering only that traffic volumes will grow. In so doing, WsDOT fails in its public mission, willfully, because “WsDOT knows” the time will come when the amount of motorized travel we now maintain will no longer be sustainable, no matter how much Washington’s freeway system expands.
WsDOT is a whore in bed with the automobile lobby.
I don’t think there is any argument that the AWV needs to be replaced. The argument is the same as the stadium issue. Seattle thinks it is entitled to statewide funding for whatever it wants. The rest of the state is on its own to do things.
The AWV should be replaced and it should be funded by tolls. Just like the Narrows bridge.
Seeking the truth–
I respectfully disagree with your statement that “I don’t think there is any argument that the AWV needs to be replaced.” It all depends upon what is a “reasonable standard of safety” for the AWV and all of our bridges. What is the “reasonable standard of safety” existing on other bridges??? Otherwise we get sucked into a redundant argument about “let’s fix this thing”. TO WHAT REASONABLE STANDARD of SAFETY?? And if the AWV is fixed to a certain level of safety…how are we going to fix all the other bridges and public/private facilities to that same standard.
I think you will find that in that context, the AWV is reasonably in line with other bridges, roadways and structures.
Reply to 73
“The AWV should be replaced and it should be funded by tolls. Just like the Narrows bridge.”
In that case, the hundreds of millions of dollars of bridges and road improvements in rural counties that Seattle drivers pay for should be funded by tolls, too.
Seeking the truth @ 73:
The AWV most likely (I would put it at 95%) WILL have tolls. The problem is that tolls will only recoup the money that we had to lay out to build the replacement, it won’t somehow magically start collecting before the replacement is built.
Where are we to get the money to replace the AWV so we can repay it back via tolls? 912 would eliminate well over 50% of the funds needed.
Comment on 74
Just what we need — Mr. Cynical now wants to use his tax-dodging … er, I mean, accounting … expertise to overrule bridge engineers and decide for us whether AVW is safe to drive on. For an encore, he’s going to kick the doctors out of University Hospital and perform brain surgeries with an Xacto Knife.
By the way, “Seeking the Truth,” if you really start delving into state finances you’re going to find that the pissed-off “red” counties are heavily subsidized by those of us who live in the Puget Sound metropolis — for everything from sidewalks to public schools to highways. There’s no way the “red” counties are self-supporting, not even close. So take your phony indignation and shove it up your ass. If you piss US off enough, WE just might keep our money, and you can pay for your own community needs or do without.
Now Roger…don’t spill the beans. You promised you would keep that brain surgery I performed on you a secret!
Oh and Roger–
It was very difficult to perform that operation with anything other than an exacto knife because all LEFTIST PINHEADS have very little, if any, brain matter. It’s a medical fact according to the Evergreen College School of Hippy Medicine!
Reply to 79 & 80
I’m positive we’ve never met. You must be thinking of the lobotomoy you performed on yourself. Did it hurt when you drilled through your skull? Just curious.
Roger–
C’mon now…of course we met.
Remember when the nice men in the little white coats came, put you on the nice cot with wheels and bungy-corded you in all nice and tight???
You probably don’t remember as you were, as usual, over-medicated!
The brain surgery went well except for a slight slip when I cut into your common-sense and personality brain corridor!!
You might want to punt on this one Rog!
Roger Rabbit@78
You have already been invited to keep your fucking money and seperate into another state!
82
Look in the mirror, Cynical. Do you see long ears? I thought not. That was YOU on the gurney.
83
I haven’t seen that initiative. Could you send me a copy? Better yet send me 50 copies. My friends want to sign it too.
Not to worry. Most of the people in Seattle are leftist moonbats anyhow. If a few more of them manage to kill themselves with thier insane driving, the state will be better off.
You mean like this? http://www.komotv.com/stories/38284.htm
The argument is the same as the stadium issue. Seattle thinks it is entitled to statewide funding for whatever it wants. The rest of the state is on its own to do things.
Both stadiums are funded by taxes levied only in King County. Which means you’re wrong about them being paid for by “statewide funding.” Not to mention the fact that Seahawks Stadium was approved in a statewide referendum.
Of course, seeing how you’re this ignorant about stadium funding, I’m not sure how your opinion about road spending is any more educated.
Mark the redneck:
All I am saying is that the money must be spent on actually fixing the problem
I notice that you’ve never responded to my question about which projects you think should be built, their cost, and their method of funding. I suppose that’s an acknowledgement that you really don’t have any solutions, and instead just like to bitch.
Donna @ 71
Your information is outdated. See my post @ 69 and the link to:
http://api-ec.api.org/filelibrary/mft070105.pdf (dated 7/1/2005)
Washington is ranked FOURTH in the country after NY, PA and WI.
Richard MIGHT be correct, depending on if you include things like sales tax on gas or if you’re only talking about the state portion of the tax (vs. county, city, etc.). As with all things political, you can make the numbers say anything you want (e.g. a “cut” is actually a “cut in the increase,” etc.).
I was surpirsied to see this article in todays paper.
Apparently the state really is not concerned about the budget all that much
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....ers01.html
Mark @ 90, My information is spot on. Your post is just for excise taxes. Mine includes all taxes.
RICHARD POPE you claimed “The gasoline tax is now the highest of any state in the countryâ€
Please Mr. Prospective Politician, back up your claim!
I bet Richard is not going to post much more now that people can call him on his faulty reasoning.
It’s a shame, we might have made an honest politician out of him.
Bax – The projects that get done should be that that actually reduce congestion. That means freeways. Pouring miles and miles and miles and miles of concrete. Not trolleys. Not trains. Not monorails. Freeways. Get it? And the lanes should be general purpose and Lexus Lanes. Forget the carpool lanes; the experiment failed.
Kemper Freeman (owner of Bellevue Square and half of downtown Bellevue) commissioned a traffic study a few years ago where they found that expanding capacity of just 4% of the lane miles in Puget Sound would reduce congestion by 25%. So when I talk about adults in charge, that’s an example of what I mean. Not activists, politicans, environmentalist wackos, union thugs or moonbats…. technical guys who know how to fix problems.
You wanted specific examples: Here’s a few:
I-5 through downtown Seattle (would require blowing up convention center before the terrorist do)
I-405 from 520 to I-90.
The entire length of 167.
But c’mon… this isn’t rocket surgery. Look where there are cars not moving. That’s where concrete should be poured.
Bax – Another thing on funding and land… Government can take land from property owners and not compensate them. CAO in King County is perfect example. And the Justice Souter voted with 4 other moonbats on the Supreme where they said taking land for a higher purpose is OK.
So now that property rights have been destroyed, gummint can just take whatever land is needed and not pay a dime.
where they found that expanding capacity of just 4% of the lane miles in Puget Sound would reduce congestion by 25%.
I bet that may well be true — but given the fact that there are tens of thousands of lane miles of roads in the puget sound region, building 4% of that will likely be a fantasically expensive proposition.
You wanted specific examples: Here’s a few:
I-5 through downtown Seattle (would require blowing up convention center before the terrorist do)
I-405 from 520 to I-90.
The entire length of 167.
But c’mon… this isn’t rocket surgery. Look where there are cars not moving. That’s where concrete should be poured.
Finally, you post some projects. First off, I agree with you that each of these roads could be expanded, and doing so would probably help reduce congestion at choke points. But here’s my problem with you: you still haven’t provided a way to pay for it.
The easy part is saying we should spend the money. The hard part is figuring out where to find the money. Now it’s your turn to do the hard part, and tell us where you’d get the money to fund these projects.
And by the way, the 9.5 cent increase along with the nickel increase are funding a huge amount of construction on 405. DOT is already trying to do what you’re asking them to do. But you’re the one supporting the initiative that will keep it from happening. So I’ll ask you again: if you’re in favor of road construction, why are you supporting the de-funding of road construction? You complain about a lack of road building in this state, but your own choices will be dramatically worse for road construction than anything the democrats have ever done.
I just wish you’d take some responsibility for the consequences of your own choices rather than blaming everybody else.
Bax@97
OK he gave you the projects, your basic answer is show me the money, while I piss up a rope over here with a tax increase that will move no more traffic….
Donnageddon @ Various
I stand corrected. I used a different website in figuring that Washington’s gasoline tax rate was now the highest in the nation:
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/245.html
I think the American Petroleum Institute link provided by you and Mark is more reliable and includes more things which are gasoline taxes. So it looks like we are fourth, and not first.
Ivan @ 57
Mississippi does have a state income tax and is a helluva lot less regressive in its state taxation system than Washington. Perhaps if they had more income, they would be able to support more government services. I think Mississippi actually does have a bit higher per capita enrollment in public colleges and universities than in Washington.
The roads in Mississippi aren’t that wonderful. But their state gasoline tax rate is only 18 cents per gallon.
It’s not like 912 ends the gas tax. There’s still the current level. What is it?… 28 cpg? That generates about a billion. Let’s start with that. Whether we’re number 1 or 8 or 10 as talked about above doesn’t matter. It’s still helluva lot of money.
And the other thing is that they need to reduce the cost per mile of construction. EFF did a good job of identifying some things they could do to reduce cost. Getting rid of prevailing wage is at the top of the list.
with a tax increase that will move no more traffic….
Building more lanes on 405 won’t move traffic? Building a new interchange at 18 and I-5 won’t move more traffic? Rebuilding I-90 at Snoqualmie Pass to prevent avalanche closures won’t move more traffic? Building the cross-base highway in Pierce County won’t move more traffic? Oh, that’s right, all these projects will move more traffic. And all of them will be paid for by the gas tax increase.
Which means you’re either ignorant or a liar.
Richard @ 99 We are 8th.
Comment on 101
“you’re either ignorant or a liar”
As you get to know Cheesy Chuckie better you’ll realize he’s both.
C.C. reminds me of a certain Idaho congressman. The federal judge who sentenced him expressed doubt’s about the congressman’s guilt. The judge said, “Frankly, I think you’re too stupid to form a criminal intent.”
Donna @ 71, 92 & 102
Your chart actually compares apples to oranges — AND is outdated by 8 months. The problem with your chart is actually the fault of API. They mixed in “other state taxes” to get their numbers. While they included local and “gross receipts” taxes for some states, they didn’t include WA’s onerous B&O tax (and undoubtedly other data in other states). Using YOUR chart and the “pure” portion of the data (updated by +3 cents for WA), WA should have the HIGHEST gasoline excise taxes in the country.
Richard @ 99
You weren’t corrected by Donna (or even me). It all depends on what “is” is. It appears that if you use gasoline excise tax alone (apples to apples), Washington is the highest in the country.
Bax@101
I believe we already had a 5 cent increase 2 years ago to take care of those projects…
there is a proposal to retrofit the viaduct at a cost of 900 million, as well as one to make a new elevated structure for 2 billion, both of which are affordable with the current money allottments, and both affordable without the gas tax.
The gas tax repeal wont make anything stop, it will simply mean they have to spend wisely.
karl–
Absolutely correct!!
These chicken little LEFTIST PINHEADS are either too selfish, too irresponsible or too stupid to admit that however.
Alas…the PINHEAD factor—where simply common sense & reality part from their LEFTIST PINHEADED fuzzy “visioning”.
Do you LEFTIST PINHEADS really believe the stuff that you post or are y’all just joshin’ us?
The gas tax repeal wont make anything stop, it will simply mean they have to spend wisely.
What does that mean? How can they spend the money more wisely? How will spending the money more wisely give us $9 billion?
Bax@109
You will never understand….
Funny when my state representitive tried to justify his vote for the 5 cent gas tax what two projects did he mention?
You got it AWV and 520.
Two years later he votes for funding the same projects how much of that nickel went to AWV and 520? I’m guessing you idiots will fall for this shit again in two years.
hopefully he’ll be accountable this time too.
You will never understand…
I agree. I’ll never understand how people who are critical of DOT seem to universally be unable to back up their assertions with facts.
Bax@112
Ever had a short check or been required to take a pay cut (or a tax increase)? You go home, tell the wife and kids that the family needs to tighten the proverbial belt, less eating out, less movies ect. The head of the WSDOT can do the same….
The head of the WSDOT can do the same….
Sure, he can. And when he does, that means DOT will build no new projects. Which is exactly what I’m saying.
Bax@114
No that simply means the WSDOT might stop pissing money away and put the money on the jobs at task. Example: the repaving of highway 507 from Spanaway to Yelm has been going on for almost 2 months now, still no stripes and the edges arent finished this compares to a New Mexico project from Portales to Dora (and then to the border towards Lubbuck). Actually almost double the run. This takes the state 3 weeks from breakup to striping AND they break up the old highway and recycle the asphalt. WSDOT simply went over the old road.
Bax,
the projects were not solely dependent on the gax tax money, it just gave them more.
There was money allotted to the projects fromt he existing budget, federal tax dollars and other funding. The gas tax funding was an additional source.
With the money already funding the projects, without the gas tax, they have sufficient funding to either retrofit or replace the Viaduct.
They would simply have to spend wisely.
That’s all I was saying.
And my chief bitch has always been that our government has a history of lousy control on its spending, but that’s another thread, isn’t it.
Peace,
Karl
There was money allotted to the projects fromt he existing budget, federal tax dollars and other funding. The gas tax funding was an additional source.
Which projects are you referring to? For the vast majority of projects funded by the taxes 912 is trying to roll back, they will be entirely defunded. And federal dollars go away without state matching funds. So if you want federal transportation dollars for road construction to go to other states, and not here, then by all means vote for 912.
With the money already funding the projects, without the gas tax, they have sufficient funding to either retrofit or replace the Viaduct.
No, they don’t. The fact that you think so makes it clear you have not researched the issue.
They would simply have to spend wisely.
Like how?
Actually almost double the run. This takes the state 3 weeks from breakup to striping AND they break up the old highway and recycle the asphalt. WSDOT simply went over the old road.
I actually took the time to go to the NM DOT site and look for information. Seems they don’t have any on this project on their site. And given your track record, I’m certainly not taking your word for it. In fact, they have nowhere near as much information on their site about their various projects as does WA DOT. Seems once again that WA DOT is doing a pretty good job with our tax dollars, particularly compared to other states.
Bax@118
If that is the case why does the state of New Mexico have better roads than Washington (by leaps and bounds) and by the way, my track record is exelent as well as truthful…and constantly as well as conservativly! (by the way, the state of New Mexico chooses to brag with asphalt on the smaller jobs rather than on a homepage)
I see the printable flyers. Now where are the yard signs, bumper stickers, and buttons? This is an uphill battle – we’ve got to act early and be tireless.
Walker
Choosing Hope