Another Christmas has passed, and alas, so has the Jewish secular humanist war on it… at least until next December. I spent the weekend in nonstop celebration with my daughter’s large Irish-Catholic family (in truth, the celebration continues later this morning with brunch), and I must glumly report from the front that we have once again lost the war. It was a joyous day for all. Damn.
A couple weeks back I wrote about the bogus “War on Christmas”, pointing out that it was far from just a harmless marketing ploy to bump ratings for Fox News. Such rhetoric cannot help but stir latent, anti-Semitic sentiments:
Gibson and O’Reilly are careful not to name the enemy, but the vile rhetoric and its impact are unchanged. For who else would wage a “war on Christmas” than Christianity’s favorite 2000-year-old enemy… the Jews?
The right’s war on the “war on Christmas” is a political strategy intended to divide the nation along religious and cultural lines, and like all wars, there will be victims. How many Fox viewers have openly and angrily derided this attack on Christian America, and how many Jewish children have already been harassed by their schoolmates as a result? Anybody who has ever been a child should understand that this sort of open hostility happens everyday, and that the subtle strains of discrimination that lie beneath the surface of 21st Century America are not so subtle to the children who are its target.
Okay… maybe I was wrong to warn that anti-Semitism lies just beneath the surface of American society. As several of my readers made clear in the comment threads, anti-Semitism and other forms of racial discrimination remain an open wound for all to see. Curiously, in addition to the usual gloating over my inevitable consignment to the fires of Hell, one of the Christian soldiers’ recurring themes was to question my Jewishness. I was dismissed as a “JINO”, accused of being an enemy of Israel… I was even compared to Hitler. (Unfavorably.) I suppose their tactic is to undermine my critique by destroying my credibility as a Jew… a stunning lack of insight that demonstrates by example the rarely understood fact that anti-Semitism is more about race than religion: it isn’t our Judaism that people hate, it’s our Jewishness.
But it’s not just old “Nazi behind every bush” Goldy who sees the “War on Christmas” for what it really is. In yesterday’s New York Times, my favorite columnist, Frank Rich, points out the obvious anti-Semitic undercurrents. [“I Saw Jackie Mason Kissing Santa Claus.”]
Rabble-rousing paranoia about a supposed assault on Christmas also has a strong anti-Semitic and far-right pedigree. In Salon, Ms. Goldberg noted that fulmination about supposed Jewish opposition to Christmas dates to Henry Ford’s infamous “The International Jew” of 1921. That chord is sounded in the very first anecdote in the book by the Fox News anchor John Gibson, “The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought”: a devastated father discovers that his 4-year-old son has brought home preschool artwork showing a Hanukkah menorah and Kwanzaa candles, rather than a Christmas tree. But Mr. Gibson goes on to add ecumenically that “not just Jewish people” are out to kill Christmas. As he elucidated on Christian radio, all non-Christians are “following the wrong religion,” though he reassures us that they will be tolerated “as long as they’re civil and behave.”
Well, I for one am not willing to be civil and behave, and some of my righty readers have shown their intolerance in response. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I don’t hate Christmas. What I hate is the way assholes like Gibson and O’Reilly stir up hate and resentment towards minorities by perpetuating this cynical myth of an oppressed Christian majority.
Yawn.
I guess if the Nazi thing doesn’t work, its cousin, “anti semitism” is your fallback.
None of us upset at the secularization of society aims at Jews; heck w/ what 5 mm jews, and 5x or more, more secularists, we are aiming at the secular crowd.
Of course “anti secularism” doesn’t get as many hits on the web counter, does it.?
Yeah.Yeah……..Yeah, Goldensteinburgloeb, You are a Democrat “victim”, just like the black Democrat “victims”, and the “guvment” employee Democrat “victim”. Yawn……One thing is clear. You are all Democrat loser parasites who can’t or won’t make in the private sector. Your kids will all grow uo hating Republican taxpayers, and all will feel “entitled” to other’s wealth. Most of your spoiled brat kids will go get a soft “liberal arts” degree in some bull shit liberal college, then default on their student loans because “they are entitled”. What a sad lot you loser Democrats are!!!!
Last time I checked my US Constitutionality meter, religions are prevented from weilding the power of the state, in order to, among other reasons, protect the liberties of those who prefer a secular life, free of religious bigotry, hypocricy, vanity, and idiotocracy. Therefore, the “War on Christmas”, initiated by christians, is unconstitutional and unpatriotic.
Bill O-Reilly attacks libruls via his most gullible audience – idiot redneck christians hoping Jesus will spare them from roasty-toasty eternal hell by hating non-christians and non-psuedo-christians like themselves.
“assholes like Gibson and O’Reilly stir up hate and resentment towards minorities by perpetuating this cynical myth of an oppressed Christian majority”
Wingers are very good at play-the-victim, Goldy. It’s their stock-in-trade.
For example, consider Dino the Loser’s concession speech. While acknowledging Gregoire’s election victory, and announcing he wouldn’t appeal Judge Bridges’s ruling, he couldn’t resist throwing in some “poor me” and “I wuz robbed.”
Whiner … crybaby … sheesh.
If Christmas is dead, it was killed by the greedy Republican businessmen who commercialized it and milked it for every dollar they could squeeze out of it.
Roger Rabbit has posted 57.1428% of the comments on this thread. If you don’t like that, ask someone to box your ears! It is, after all, Boxing Day — that’s what Boxing Day is for, isn’t it? By the way, did anyone notice that if you subtract 54% from 57.1428%, you get the percentage equivalent of pi? There must be some sort of mystical or metaphysical significance to that.
I know what it means — I’m a Magic Bunny!!! :D :D :D
Jewish Milton Friedman and his wife Rose are my heros. You are just another non military serving, complaining, bitching, liberal socialist “redistribute other’s wealth” Democrat. And you hide behind the fact you are Jewish. Who cares? Just another “I’m a victim” Democrat.
You do us tribal shamanic types such a disservice by claiming that the media is saying you Jewish people who are killing the Christmas spirit. We have strived every bit as hard to achieve this monumental accomplishment, yet once again, not even a flicker of acknowledgement. Even those pesky Druids, wiccans, and pagans get more credit.
I’m going to light some incense now. Later.
Happy Boxing Day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_Day
“Centuries ago, merchants would present their servants food and fruits as a form of Yuletide tip. Naturally, the gifts of food and fruit were packed in boxes, hence the term “Boxing Day”.
Ofcourse, Republicans think Boxing Day is the day when you put the poor people into boxes, instead of giving them gratuity in boxes. But it makes no never mind to the GOP’s princes of industry. (Who pray to the secular god of money).
“But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”
(Isaiah 11:4)
Ahhhhh Goldy my friend–
You must have been sleeping through the Catholic Christmas celebration and awaken ANGRY…once again. After all Goldy, your life not being perpetually pissed off is hardly worth living, is it???
I asked you what Synagogue you attended and did you attend regularly. I asked that question repeatedly. Your silence spoke volumes. The reason I razzed you a bit was your constant drone and implications that somehow YOU, GOLDY, are a Holocaust Victim when you grew up and lived a privileged life in Philadelphia! It’s absurd for you to continuously spew the hot rhetoric about everyone hating you because you are a Jew and those who disagree with you must disagree because you are NAZI’S who Hate you because you are a Jew…blah, blah blah.
It appears Goldy, YOU are guilty of spewing the hot rhetoric you claim to abhor!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I certainly do not HATE you Goldy.
I disagree with you often and like to stick the needle in….something YOU can relate to huh???
I have many Jewish friends Goldy. None of them think I hate them because they are Jewish. And unlike you, MOST are both “ethnic” JEWS and religous JEWS.
I probably should have just ignored your crazed post here….and just chalked it up to the fact that you are reacting to hiding your contempt for Catholics and all Christians for the welfare of your daughter all weekend! God is great!
Can somebody tell me where the “wall” is? I’d like to read about it.
Goldy, Check out
http://www.theocracywatch.org/taking_over.htm
If that doesn’t get you there, just use http//:www.theocracywatch.org.
The article is entitled: Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party.
The right wing of the GOP thinks the GOP ought to be the new, only religion; not only should people worship the same way, they should think the same way. Creeps. The American Talbian for sure.
Bozo @ 11:
I asked that question repeatedly. Your silence spoke volumes.
Perhaps it’s none of your EFFING business! Ever think of that?
Clueless–
Is Goldy your like “sock puppet”????
He can speak for himself….and always does.
It seems mighty convenient for Goldy or anyone to hide behind ethnicity or religion screaming about Nazi’s when the real issue is Goldy’s dumbass ideas!!
When someone repeatedly plays the ethnic-offended or racially-oppressed card too many times, the card gets worn out! That’s what is happening here.
I thought you KLOWNS wanted to debate the issues??? How can you do that when you keep bringing up boogie-man Nazi’s and playing Holocaust victim???
Doesn’t work too well…for very long.
Cynical: If a liberal admits they attend church, temple or synagogue it would be an anathema to their hate all religious righty types. What kind act has a liberal ASS done for their fellow man lately? I submit nothing!
FEDERAL COURTS BLAST “BIASED” IMMIGRATION JUDGES
From today’s P-I:
“Uproar over asylum rulings
“Appellate courts assail ‘incomprehensible’ decisions
“By ADAM LIPTAK
“THE NEW YORK TIMES
“Federal appeals court judges around the nation have repeatedly excoriated immigration judges this year for what they call a pattern of biased and incoherent decisions in asylum cases.
“In one decision last month, Richard Posner, a relatively conservative federal appeals court judge in Chicago, concluded that ‘the adjudication of these cases at the administrative level has fallen below the minimum standards of legal justice.’
“Similarly, the federal appeals court in Philadelphia said in September that it had ‘time and time again’ been forced to rebuke immigration judges for their “intemperate and humiliating remarks.”
“Citing cases from around the country, the court wrote of ‘a disturbing pattern’ of misconduct in immigration rulings that sent people back to countries where they had said they would face persecution.
“The criticism may stem in part from a surge in immigration cases before the federal appeals courts. Immigration cases, most involving asylum seekers, accounted for about 17 percent of all appeals last year, up from just 3 percent in 2001. In the courts in New York and California, nearly 40 percent of federal appeals involved immigration cases.
“The increase occurred after Attorney General John Ashcroft made changes in 2002 to streamline appellate review within the immigration courts, which are part of the Justice Department.
…
“Judges at the top and bottom of the system blame the administrative body between them, the Board of Immigration Appeals, for the surge in appeals and the mixed quality of the decisions. The board is meant to act as a filter, correcting erroneous or intemperate decisions from the immigration judges and providing general guidance.
“But the board largely stopped reviewing immigration cases in a meaningful way after it was restructured by Ashcroft in 2002, several judges said. Ashcroft reduced the number of judges from 23 to 11.
“‘They just hacked off all the liberals is basically what they did,’ said Lory Diana Rosenberg, who served on the board from 1995 to 2002.
….”
For complete story, see http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....mig26.html
Betcha white immigrants get treated better by Bush’s immigration judges than people of color.
Not all Republicans are racists, but nearly all racists are Republicans.
@1
Yawn.
I guess if the Nazi thing doesn’t work, its cousin, “anti semitism” is your fallback.
Do you righties really think that anit-Semitism should be enclosed in quotes, as if it were something imaginary?
an instrutive film to watch in Barry Levinson’s “Liberty Heights”, which recalls the neighborhood rivalries that were becoming heightened by the mobility of the fifties.
A couple of scenes present what was a very common event the, recitation of the “Lord’s Prayer” in a school classroom.
This really hit home with my wife, who is Jewish and was raised in Orange N.J. She attended high school at about the time the Levinson film takes place. It was a school in an almost entirely Jewish neighborhood, most of the teachers were Jewish, too. But, the school officials had decreed, in their arrogance, that all these all these people who did not believe that Jesus was their Lord, would recite this basic Christian prayer each day.
I think that is an example of the excesses that caused Jews to begin to vocally demand recognition of their difference at Christmas, by elevating an otherwise unimportant holiday, Hanukkah, to and event to wrap presents and send cards.
Jewish kids always wanted Christmas, though, because the loot is better.
This is the basis of the war. Those lousy Jews are trying to erase the righties Christmas, a highly cubious premise, given that so many Jewish retailers make their livings off of Christmas.
cubious = dubious
Of course it’s more than just a veiled anti-Semitism. It works the rubes in the South and Midwest also to posit malevolent liberal elites in their big fancy cities who want to destroy all that’s holy and substitute, as Jon Stewart said, “Osama’s home abortion pot and commie jizzporium.” Keeps them good and scared of the Democrats, and thus the perfect loyal Republicans. Fear is powerful. 9/11. Gays in your children’s schools.
Goldy,
so what’s the post about? Klagons and grand dragons whipping up the boys cuz some Jews wanna take away Christmas (your theme), or the existence, non-existance of anti-semitism in the US (voter advocate, others, chasing that one)
I’ll play either argument.
You or any lib other than the rabbit (cuz he’s a bore) can make the call…
If “righton” (notice the quote marks) thinks I’m a “bore” (notice the quote marks), I must be doing something right! :D :D :D
23.
Argument, there is no argument.
You righties hate everyone who wants to assert their difference by putting forth their own version of the Solstice celebration, and attack those of us who want to respect all religions by using the generic “holy day”, from which holiday is derived. You premise is that we are “warring” on Christmas by acknowledging that there are other celebrations going on. It is you, however, who are warring on those who partake of Hanukkah, Kwanza, and the like.
Most people are just fine with “Merry Christmas”, as it has become a meaningless consumer binge that presents many shiny objects to distract.
Not me, I’m holding out for Pleasant Solstice.
DOMESTIC SPYING SCANDAL GROWS
You’d think the day after Christmas would be a slow news day, but it’s not shaping up that way. ABC News reports tonight that Bush’s warrantless domestic spying is “wider” than previously reported. http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1443191
I believe the domestic spying scandal will grow, grow, and grow. There’s a very good reason why the Bush administration didn’t request warrants — either before or after the fact — and that’s because they’re conducting spying that no judge would approve.
This spying has nothing to do with terrorism, or protecting the country from attack. It’s the kind of spying you can’t get a court to issue a warrant for — because it’s illegitimate and illegal: Spying on critics and opponents for political purposes. Exactly what the constitution and wiretapping laws prohibit.
Wait and see.
Connecting The Dots
I wonder how many of you see the link between warrantless spying, torture, and detention without trial or due process?
1. Confessions obtained by means of duress don’t stand up in court.
2. Illegally obtained evidence, and the evidence obtained as fruit of an illegal search or surveillance, is inadmissible in court.
The Bush administration wants detention without due process because it’s the only way they can jail people based on information obtained by torture or illegal surveillance. To put it very simply, to operate outside the law, you must put yourself beyond reach of the law.
We have become a nation of men, instead of laws. That is, the men in power, not the law, determines what is to become of each of us. Sorta like a king … or a dictator.
That must be why were taking over the gulags in Eastern Europe. Since none of the “terrorists” being rounded up can be tried, the plan is to have more and more Guantanamo-style legal limbos to be filled with the thousands of ‘evil doers’ who were illegally entrapped.
voter advocate votes for “Christians imagine they are beleagured”
I’ll address later.
But, please note, there are only 2 late December religious holidays; Christmas and Hanaukauh.
Kwanzaa isn’t religious and it is a 40 year old cultural holiday.
I probably should have just ignored your crazed post here….
Dear Mr. “Dances with snakes” Cynical: The fact that you put this statement at the end of your post, rather than at the beginning, speaks volumes.
Can somebody tell me where the “wall” is? I’d like to read about it.
You’ll know when you hit it, Labia Lips.
The U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV, Section 1, says:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.”
If you’re born in the U.S., you’re a citizen. Pretty simple, right? Not so fast. Some conservative congressmen want to reinterpret the Constitution to mean that SOME people born in the U.S. — namely, children of illegal immigrants — are NOT citizens. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10609068/
“Some conservatives in Congress … say the amendment … was never intended to grant citizenship automatically to babies of illegal immigrants … they contend that federal legislation, rather than a difficult-to-achieve constitutional amendment, would be sufficient to end birthright citizenship.”
If their bill passes, no doubt they’ll go shopping for an activist judge to uphold it.
Republicans will move heaven and earth to make sure a baby isn’t aborted … then, they’ll move heaven and earth again to make sure it can’t vote.
I read the same story wabbit. So I’ll tell the rest that you so carefully left out…
It was intended to grant citizenship to freed slaves in 1868 after the Republican lead War Between The States to free them. It was never intended to allow a backdoor method to bring in more hungry mouths for us Producers to take care of.
Nice try…
Solstice is my religious holiday where my liberal friends and I drink blood obtained from aborted fetuses on 12 consecutive nights, that or Guiness. We pray to out sky god Porker that all Christians will contract jock itch.
In the old days, it was not called the Holiday Season; the Christians called it ‘Christmas’ and went to church; the Jews called it ‘Hanukkah’ and went to synagogue; the atheists went to parties and drank. People passing each other on the street would say ‘Merry Christmas!’ or ‘Happy Hanukkah!’ or (to the atheists) ‘Look out for the wall!’
~Dave Barry, “Christmas Shopping: A Survivor’s Guide”
Wabbit – Is it still a lie if you leave out important parts of the story and ignore the context?
Gift rift: Evangelicals split over plan to ban presents
– Joe Garofoli, Chronicle Staff Writer
Saturday, December 24, 2005
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/.....GD4GD1.DTL
Conservative religious leaders are so pleased with their campaign against the “war on Christmas” that they’re going to rev it up next year.
Look for more lawyers ready to pounce on Christmas disses, they say, more teachers ready to tattle on silencings of “Silent Night” and more boycotts of stores for yanking the “Christmas” out of the season.
But one influential group of evangelicals has something else in mind that is causing a division in the religious ranks:
It wants to ban presents.
The American Family Association is suggesting that adults buy nothing from stores for each other next year. Sliding an Xbox 360 to a child would be OK, said association president Tim Wildmon, but adults should funnel their consumer cash to a charity that helps the poor — preferably one friendly to “Christian values” such as the Salvation Army.
more…
There are two silly ideas here. One is that there is war on Christmas. The other is that it is being waged by anti – semites.
It sounds like a bunch of you got coal in your stockings.
If the best you can do is bring up how the world was in the ’50’s, and so condemn the religious today, you are reaching pretty darn hard. Of course, Goldy keeps goig back to the early 20th century for his bogeymen.
It is pretty hard to ignore, though, the level of anger and hate from the left on this thread. That’s fine – you look silly, like Oreilly and Gibson.
Redneck @ 38: Thanks for sharing with us your gift for discerning the true and unanimous intent of all the folks involved in drafting and ratifying the 14th Amendment over 100 years ago.
You gotta wonder, though. If they really meant to have it apply only to former slaves, why didn’t they just say so?
MTR –
That would be the Thirteenth Amendment. Pay freakin’ attention.
36, Voter Advocate said:” Solstice is my religious holiday where my liberal friends and I drink blood obtained from aborted fetuses on 12 consecutive nights, that or Guiness.”
You and your liberal friends represent the sickest of the sick in our society and it’s not surprising that you work at KCRE. It’s the perfect place for such a depraved individual such as yourself.
MTR – Oops. My mistake.
MTR –
Heck, I thought it was all about a literal interpretation of the Constitution. Our USSC’s have been consistently interpreting “all persons” to mean all persons. HOW is that wrong, again?
Right wingers are whiners, moaners, crooks, and liars. They have a need to feel that they are the victims.
Dogbert in the “Dilbert” cartoon is a perfect young Republican. How many Kwanzaa and Chanukah TV specials have you seen lately? None. How many Christmas specials? Many. Yet the Righties STILL feel underrepresented and victimized. After cultivating this feeling in their constituents, the RIGHTISTS then encourage their dupes to lash out at their supposed victimizers.
“We’ll keep the rubes angry and then sic ’em on ya when the time is right.” seems to be the Republican motto.
I love cartoon too Winston. My favorite lefty cartoon is 60 minutes. The episode where they tried to frame a president by faking a memo was my favorite. HEhahaha ah that one alway make me laugh.
Hey – Why havent you donks been talking about the polls lately? It seems like your polls like your fitzmas are both heading south on ya. Hahahahaha
The pseudo-christian charismatics are cultists, not real Christians. So it’s no surprise they hate Christmas. I honestly don’t think this is driven by anti-semitism. If it seems that way, it’s because they are intolerant of everyone whose beliefs differ from theirs. One thing all of these cults have in common is they deviate from the scriptures. They bend Bible scripture to make feel-good lessons appealing to people who can’t think for themselves. They turn Bible scripture into pop culture. They have locked the church doors! For example, a local church (Northshore Christian Church in Everett) and a megachurch in Illinois told their parishioners to stay home on Christmas Day, Sunday and gave them a DVD with the Christmas Day sermon on it! How is this less radical than a rabbi on the Sabbath closing the temple, sending everyone home, and handing them a DVD in place of a spiritual service, ceremony and sermon, with spiritual gathering of others in the community. How much spiritual guidance does anyone get from that, as a way to appeal to modern audiences who don’t want to here Bible scripture as it is really laid out? If the pseudo–christian (fundies) followed the Bible, they would try to love one another and accept what they cannot change in others.
I know I try hard and struggle with my Christian beliefs daily and I fail, because I cannot love the pseudo-fundies and right wingers.
God help me!
Clinton also conducted warrantless wiretaps. The taps are against non-citizens. They are under the watch of FISA.
Congress has been briefed on the program. Jay Rockefeller admitted he knew the full extent, presumably as he was leaking it to the NYT. So why no outcry until now?
Mosques are being surveiled for radiation. And this is a bad thing?
Go ahead – every time the public learns that this administration is taking real action against the terrorists, the president’s approval ratings go up. So, have at it. Even call for impeachment. It will make Bush’s number go through the roof.
Talk about tone deaf to what the public wants.
Scott and Daddy – yeah, yer prolly right. What the fuck was I thinking? I’m sure the authors had in mind for limitless numbers of Meskins to violate our borders so they could breed here and live off the producers. All they gotta do is vote for Ds to keep on the gravy train.
Thanks for straightening me out. My wallet is now open.
MTR: I don’t claim to know what the authors were thinking, other than to read their plain text. Did you have some other system in mind?
Fortunately, we have a system for changing the Constitution if it doesn’t meet our modern day needs. Takes a little bit of extra work, but I think the resulting rule of law rather than subjective whim is worth it.
Or, we could just go back to a system of kings.
MTR: Also, thanks for reminding us that R also stands for racist. Usually, it’s hidden, but at least you have the guts to bring it out in the open and let us know where you stand. Bravo!
Candy,
I know that particular church quite well, and it doesnt surprise me Nate told people to stay home.
I attended there back in the late 90’s. I now am a converting Catholic but that’s another story.
Sure the DVD sermon is over the top, but the concept of telling people to stay home with their families on Christmas is hardly radical, if anything it’s refreshing. Where else should a family be on Christmas?
Were they the Cult you assume, the last thing they would do is keep people out of church, because a prime rule of a cult is to replace the persons family with the church.
Nate’s church is not a cult, it is a charismatic word faith church. It is hardly a Fundie church, far from it.
Being a more orthodox minded person, I don’t agree with the interpretation of some of their, and similar churches dogma, but that does not automatically qualify them as cultists.
And as I said, I know them from past experience, they don’t hate christmas at all.
They just chose a different method of celebration: Family.
Scott – Uh-huh… well, if you can’t make an intelligent argument, resort to name calling. Right out of the D playbook.
Goldy,
Again you miss the bigger picture. When you take a worldview, you will find many places where Christians and Jews are persecuted because of who they are.
You continue to speculate wildly that somehow the celebration of Christmas and the current controversy that involves removing Christianity from public view will have a negative impact on American Jews.
Do you truly believe that it is the Jewish community that is actively trying to suppress the free expression of a person’s Christian beliefs in public schools and government buildings across America today?
I doubt you can answer the above question because I believe that you have no basis for your claim.
I challenge you to explain how the current push to re-establish religious freedom will create a new wave of anti-Semitism in this county.
The simple fact is that America is the friendliest nation to Jews after Israel, that’s a fact.
The truth is, there is less tolerance for Jews in nations that have drifted towards secular societies. This one thing alone destroys the myth you try to spin here.
It is my belief that you either consciously or subconsciously know that American Jews are becoming increasingly nervous about the direction of the radical left. They are questioning (and rightly so) whether they have any loyalty to them as an ethnic group.
Goldy wants you to remain on the reservation. But if I were Jewish I wouldn’t worry. After all, when they (the radical left) bow down to the Palestinians, CAIR and The Nation of Islam (all anti-Semitic groups) that doesn’t mean that they will side with them over you.
Does it?
Happy Chanukah to my Jewish friends.
In Janet S’s world:
“Clinton also conducted warrantless wiretaps.” — No, he didn’t.
“The taps are against non-citizens.” — No, they are explicitly tapping U.S. citizens’ conversations.
“They are under the watch of FISA.” — No, the Bush Administration decided to leave the FISA court out of the loop. Hence, “warrantless” surveillance.
Please keep your fantasies to yourself.
righton, regarding “But, please note, there are only 2 late December religious holidays; Christmas and Hanaukauh.”
See, thats why we have freedom of religion, so idiots like you don’t get to decide what counts as a religion. As much as it may surprise you, there are religions in the US that are not part of your specific Judeo-Christion monotheistic religious tree and they do indeed have winter holidays.
Voter Advocate, regarding “Solstice is my religious holiday where my liberal friends and I drink blood obtained from aborted fetuses on 12 consecutive nights, that or Guiness. We pray to out sky god Porker that all Christians will contract jock itch.”
I really want to point out you seem to be tongue in cheek here, but you need to realize that some Christians have made the claim that something fairly similar to that is exactly what pagans do to celebrate Yule on the solstice. This is close to claiming to be jewish in an anonymous public forum and then discussing your plot to take over the world. Please be aware that this type of language is fairly objectionable both to the righties and to those you are appearantly mocking.
Clinton also conducted warrantless wiretaps.” — No, he didn’t.
Comment by David— 12/26/05 @ 10:36 pm
Hey Dumbass-Look up Aldrich Aimes. Can liberals ever tell the truth?
Candy,
Correction, I think I confused Northshore Family Church (now called Todays Church) with Northshore Christian Church…My bad.
However, I stil think the point you are making is off track.
The official Government name for December 25th is CHRISTMAS. See the US Code and the Washington Revised Code. Goldy would seem to argue that if you use the term set forth in the RCW you are anti-semitic, but he never quite gets there. He stops at saying those who object to calling December 25 something other than Christmas are supporting and encouraging anti-semitism. In the alternate, if you are an obnoxious television personality who advocates following the naming convention set forth in the RCW you are promoting anti-semitism.
Is this an argument that some people are obnoxious television personalities and ridiculing their positions is great fun when Goldy can either call them names or play the religion card, or an argument that the RCW is anti-semitic?
What school district reprinted the December lunch menu because it used Merry Christmas? Do we presume this reprint to Happy Holidays to be pro-semitic?
Christmas is the official government designation for December 25. What is anti-semetic about complaints regarding the Politically Correct camp’s efforts to eradicate the name of the government’s named holiday of Christmas?
If Goldy can provide evidence that the PC movement is overwhelmingly Jewish and that disagreemnt with the PC agenda is anti-semitic by definition, he might gain crdibility. As it stands, Goldy is accusing anyone who disagrees with him of being anti-semetic.
The simple fact remains: December 25 is an official government holiday whose name is Christmas.
Bill, So who’s counting.
The point people are making is that some groups seek to
emphasize the other winter holidays and to de-emphasize Christmas to a degree that goes beyond reduction to equality.
I have nothing bad to say about any other celebrations. Diversity rocks. But diversity is not making one celebration go away.
jaybo wishes “Happy Chanukah to my Jewish friends.” Thanks.
But the nice wishes are preceded by some seriously warped thinking.
Hang on, let’s break that down. There are many places where Jews are persecuted for being Jews. And many places where Muslims are persecuted for being Muslims. And a few places where Christians are persecuted for being Christians—not very many places, and certainly not the U.S. Quit trying to play the ‘oppressed Christian majority’ victim card. It’s a load of hooey.
But wait, it gets better!
Um, you’re failing the reading comprehension test. Jews have no problem with Christians celebrating Christmas. Jews are not trying to suppress Christianity somehow. Its a rather ludicrous proposition, the claim that the poor Christians are being oppressed (by the Jews, implicitly) and forced into hiding—although plenty of people have bought into it. And that’s what’s having a negative effect on American Jews.
I think something you said is awfully telling. You long for
This is infuriating to me, because it’s a two-faced demand built on a false premise. In short, it’s bullshit. The truth is that a “person” can express his or her personal Christian beliefs in public all day. But someone acting in the name of the government—a teacher, say—may not use that position to proselytize or espouse his or her own religious beliefs.
Put yourself in the opposite position. How would you feel if public school teachers started informing your children that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet? Do you think you might have a problem with that? Well, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, Hindus, etc. all have the same problem with Christians wanting to use our government as a pulpit for their religious beliefs.
This is a simple concept; there is no controversy except what the right wing agitators are manufacturing. This isn’t about a secular war on Christmas; it’s about Christian zealots attacking our government and our society for being religiously neutral and accommodating.
Again I must call bullshit. There is no push to “re-“establish religious freedom, because you already have full religious freedom. Blaming some nefarious, anti-Christian unseen actors (i.e., the Jews, those Christ-killers) for taking away your religious freedom—that encourages anti-Semitic feelings.
Yes it is. Truest thing you’ve written. And it’s thanks, in no small part, to the religious freedom this country affords Jews and everyone.
Oh, but you head right back to the manure pile. jaybo, this is simply false. Theocracies tend not to tolerate Jews much. Nations gripped by religious fundamentalism tend not to tolerate Jews much. Secular, liberal societies accommodate Jews just fine. Fuck you for lying.
If you can’t understand why the right wing’s story of someone attacking Christmas causes problems for Jews, you’re just being willfully ignorant.
David said that jaybo is “being willfully ignorant.
Yep, and you can add every troll name on HA to that list.
WIllful ignorance is a stain on our country, and it is spelled: C O N S E R V A T I V E
“diversity is not making one celebration go away.”
And as we all saw this season, Christmas was hardly seen at all! It was never on the TV entertainment shows, news shows, radio, print media..
It was like Christmas just disappeared!!
38
Thanks for the lesson in constitutional law, Redneck. Now try this on for size: U.S. v Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898):
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/.....8;page=649
It appears that Redneck, in his vast academic meanderings, may have read a pocket guide to law once upon a time.
Lawyers love do-it-yourselfers like him because their attempts to play armchair lawyer doubles the real lawyer’s work — and fee.
41
“Wabbit – Is it still a lie if you leave out important parts of the story and ignore the context?”
The context is children of illegal immigrants born in the U.S., and the story is they’re U.S. citizens. If you don’t believe me, go read the fucking case. That’s what we have a Supreme Court for. Clue: Their authority to interpret the law supersedes yours.
As Wikipedia notes, “In response to concerns over illegal immigration in the United States (and the associated fear that children of illegal immigrants could serve as ‘anchor babies’), bills have been introduced from time to time in Congress which have sought to reinterpret the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment and deny citizenship at birth to U.S.-born children of foreign visitors or illegal aliens. No such bill has ever come close to being enacted; even if one did, it would presumably achieve its intended result only if the Supreme Court, in a new case, were to decide that Wong Kim Ark had been wrongly decided and that the precedent set in 1898 should be repudiated. Some attempts have also been made to supersede Wong Kim Ark by amending the Constitution itself, but no such amendment has ever been approved by Congress in order to be voted upon by state legislatures.”
41 (continued)
Now then, Redneck, exactly what “lie” did I post?
INFORMAL HORSES ASS POLL
Mark only one box:
[ ] 1. Roger Rabbit is a liar.
[ ] 2. Mark the Redneck is full of shit.
42
“The American Family Association is suggesting that adults buy nothing from stores for each other next year. Sliding an Xbox 360 to a child would be OK, said association president Tim Wildmon, but adults should funnel their consumer cash to a charity that helps the poor – preferably one friendly to ‘Christian values’ such as the Salvation Army.”
That’s actually not a bad idea, although I don’t see why one’s gift-giving should be limited to “Christian values” charities, but one such charity that comes to mind is Union Gospel Mission. They provided meals and shelter to the homeless — you know, the “immoral” poor people who are “too lazy” to work. (Or maybe they’re mentally ill, addicted, or disabled.)
53
“Clinton also conducted warrantless wiretaps. The taps are against non-citizens. They are under the watch of FISA. Congress has been briefed on the program. Jay Rockefeller admitted he knew the full extent, presumably as he was leaking it to the NYT. So why no outcry until now?”
What a crock. Sorry, Janet, but your version of the “facts” doesn’t square with the facts.
Hey Janet — can you explain why some conservatives are calling for Bush’s head?
“Conservative Scholars Argue Bush’s Wiretapping Is An Impeachable Offense”
“Conservative scholars Bruce Fein and Norm Ornstein argued yesterday on The Diane Rehm show that, should Bush remain defiant in defending his constitutionally-abusive wire-tapping of Americans (as he has indicated he will), Congress should consider impeaching him.
“QUESTION: Is spying on the American people as impeachable an offense as lying about having sex with an intern?
“BRUCE FEIN, constitutional scholar and former deputy attorney general in the Reagan Administration: I think the answer requires at least in part considering what the occupant of the presidency says in the aftermath of wrongdoing or rectification. On its face, if President Bush is totally unapologetic and says I continue to maintain that as a war-time President I can do anything I want – I don’t need to consult any other branches – that is an impeachable offense. It’s more dangerous than Clinton’s lying under oath because it jeopardizes our democratic dispensation and civil liberties for the ages. It would set a precedent that … would lie around like a loaded gun, able to be used indefinitely for any future occupant.
“NORM ORNSTEIN, AEI scholar: I think if we’re going to be intellectually honest here, this really is the kind of thing that Alexander Hamilton was referring to when impeachment was discussed.
“More from Knight-Ridder:
“[Bush’s] explanation fueled more anger over the domestic spying, and some legal experts asserted that Bush broke the law on a scale that could warrant his impeachment.
“’The president’s dead wrong. It’s not a close question. Federal law is clear,’ said Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University and a specialist in surveillance law. ‘When the president admits that he violated federal law, that raises serious constitutional questions of high crimes and misdemeanors.’”
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/.....le-offense
54
WTF do you produce besides methane?
58
General Peers, author of the official report on the My Lai Massacre, famously said, “The first duty of free men is to call a thing by its right name.” Scott is just doing his duty as a free man.
62
“Please be aware that this type of language is fairly objectionable both to the righties and to those you are appearantly mocking.”
Whoop-de-doo. You say that as if it’s something righties never do.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Terry Jay @ 65 seems incredulous that we’re not blown away by the fact that “December 25 is an official government holiday whose name is Christmas.”
Um, duh? The 25th is Christmas, no one will disagree. Nobody calls it by any other name. And it’s a government holiday, that’s a fact. So what? As Samantha Bee said so incisively (in 2004):
I’m Jewish, I’d sure like to have Yom Kippur be an officially-recognized work holiday. I bet every faith has a day (or several) that—were they the majority religion—they would want officially recognized and accommodated. Most (9 of 10?) Americans are Christians, so most people aren’t going to work on December 25th, so it’s not surprising for the mostly-Christan legislators to declare it an official holiday. Maybe in the future some other religion will be the most popular one in America and Christmas will lose its official holiday status to a different religious day.
Happy holidays. (Y’know, Winter Solstice, Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, New Years’ Day, Sylvester, Epiphany, Eastern Orthodox Christmas, Eid al-Adha, Makar Sankranti, Maghi, Chinese New Year, Muharram, etc.)
I don’t see why wingers should have a monopoly on objectionable language or mocking people. They want a monopoly on every fucking thing! Well, I, Roger Rabbit, have as much right to use objectionable language and mock people as THEY do! So fuck you, and fuck the armadillo you rode in on, too!
Stefan — if you win your lawsuit against KCE, are you gonna share the money with the generous contributors to your “legal action fund” who paid for the lawsuit, or keep it all for yourself?
RUFUS @ 63
Wrong.
The clinton andministration performed a warrantles physical search in the case of Aldreich Ames (at the time certifiABLY an agent of a foreign power), which was not covered by FISA at the time. Subsequently, Congress, recognizing that limiting executive power in this area as vital, amended FISA to cover physical searches as well. So now warrants are required for both physical searches AND electronic surveillance of agents of feorieng powers, and CIA/NSA surveillance of US citizens who are NOT such agents is still illegal.
Shorter version: Clinton perfomed a national security search where no law applied. President Bush violated the LETTER of the current law. (and Carter performed national security surveillance before FISA was enacted)
Terry Jay @ 65
“Goldy would seem to argue that if you use the term set forth in the RCW you are anti-semitic…”
No, he doesn’t. He is speculating about the motives of those who play up a bogus “War on Christmas” and warns about possible consequences thereof. But thanks for playing.
MTR @ 54
You labor under such a wealth of misapprehensions it is tough to sort them all out.
“I’m sure the authors had in mind…”
And I’m sure you have very little idea what the authors had in mind, but regurgitate the latest talking points like they were the Ten commandments. What to DO kow is that the US Contitution says that “all persons” born here are citizens. As RR points out, it is a long-settled legal matter. If your boys want to change the Contitution, they’re welcome to try. But it IS the law of the land.
“…for limitless numbers of Meskins to violate our borders so they could breed here and live off the producers…”
Do you even KNOW a Mexican? If so, how many? What are you using as the basis for your generalization abotu their behavior and motivations?
All they gotta do is vote for Ds to keep on the gravy train.
yes, it does seem VERY clear that the Democrats are the only party interested in upholding the laws and the US Constitution.
“Thanks for straightening me out. My wallet is now open.”
The constitutional rights of US citizens doesn’t have anything to do with your wallet. if something happens to be inconvenient for your wallet or mine (not that you provide any suppport for such a contention), it doesn’t invalidate its constitutionality.
“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face! It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
– GW Bush
David @ 67,
Where do I start?
I will breakdown your attack point by point and give you facts (something that you seemed to have forgotten in your post).
“Hang on, let’s break that down. There are many places where Jews are persecuted for being Jews. And many places where Muslims are persecuted for being Muslims. And a few places where Christians are persecuted for being Christians”.
OK, let me give you some examples, I’d love to see that long list of countries where Muslims are being persecuted though.
Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Vietnam, China, Eritrea, Iran, Laos, Pakistan, N. Korea, Indonesia and Iraq (there are more). What is also coincidental is that in many of these same countries, Jews are also persecuted.
2. “The truth is that a “person” can express his or her personal Christian beliefs in public all day.”
Oh really?
“District bans instrumental Christmas carols songs with religious references barred, even without lyrics.
A school district’s long-standing policy banning Christmas songs with religious references is under scrutiny after officials clarified that it includes the prohibition of the performance of instrumental numbers without lyrics. Instead of tunes about Jesus, and even Santa Claus, the 40-member Columbia High School brass ensemble will be limited for the first time to seasonal selections such as “Winter Wonderland” and “Frosty the Snowman,” the Newark Star-Ledger reported.”
“The suit stemmed from a school Christmas party where students exchanged cards and gifts. No restrictions were placed on what type of cards or gifts could be given out. After the teacher noticed Justin’s candy-cane card, school officials said Justin could not hand it out because it violated policies barring schools from advocating religion and/or promoting one religion over another.”
“Arizona school officials ruled it unconstitutional for a student to make any reference to the religious history of Christmas in a class project.”
“Mustang, Okla., 2004: Mustang’s Lakewood Elementary school puts on a Christmas pageant every year with a nativity scene, as well as references to Hanukah and Kwanzaa. But this year, the nativity scene is gone. School Superintendent Karl Springer banned it after the ACLU told him that the nativity scene and maybe even “Silent Night” could violate the First Amendment, and the school district’s lawyer concurred. Thousands of protest e-mails and phone calls pour in.”
“Eugene, Ore., 2000: After a lengthy debate among city officials over whether Christmas trees are a religious or secular symbol, City Manager Jim Johnson issues an order banning the trees on public property. He had no idea he would unleash a firestorm of protest: The city was mocked by The Wall Street Journal, among others, and the story drew international attention. The next year, the order is reversed, after a little research showed that, as Johnson put it, “the Supreme Court does not believe that a Christmas tree in and of itself is a Christian symbol.””
“Covington, Ga., 2000: The ACLU tells a local school board that it cannot use the word “Christmas” on its calendar to describe the upcoming Christmas vacation — and warns legal action if it does. For several years, the calendar has said “winter break” (after being changed in a fit of political correctness), but now school board member Richard Tiede wants it changed back. To him, this is a simple description of reality, not a matter of proselytizing: School is out during the last two weeks of December because the vast majority of students are celebrating Christmas.”
Now lets look at some examples of government sponsorship of religion.
“OK For Public Schools To Teach Seventh Graders “To Become Muslims”
For three weeks in 2001, impressionable twelve-year-old students were told that they would become Muslims, memorized verses from the Koran, took Islamic names, wore identification tags that displayed their new Islamic name and the Star and Crescent Moon, which is the symbol of Muslims, were handed materials that instructed them to “Remember Allah always so that you may prosper,” completed the Islamic Five Pillars of Faith, including fasting, and memorized and recited the “Bismillah” or “In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. Praise be to God,” which students also wrote on banners that were hung on the classroom walls.”
3.”Theocracies tend not to tolerate Jews much. Nations gripped by religious fundamentalism tend not to tolerate Jews much.”
This is a sly little play on words, of course what David fails to tell us is that those same “theocracies” are Muslim nations (see my list of nations that persecute Christians). Again David, show me the long list of Christian nations today that persecute Jews (don’t hold your breath waiting for that list).
4. Finally, “If you can’t understand why the right wing’s story of someone attacking Christmas causes problems for Jews, you’re just being willfully ignorant.”
Tell you what David, humor me for one moment and break it down for me with a detailed explanation as to how that will happen (something I asked for and still haven’t received).
62.
This is close to claiming to be jewish in an anonymous public forum and then discussing your plot to take over the world.
Bullshit.
Satire is free speech. You are free not to get it, but not to stop me from partaking in it. In other words, you can be a humorless jerk and explain something that is obvious as if you are the recipient of divine truth, but get off your high horse when you do it, asshole.
“To do is to be. ” – Plato
“To be is to do.” – Socrates
“Do be, do be, do.” – Sinatra
jaybo @ 86
Re: your number 2.
– School district. Endorsement of religion not allowed by well-settled case law.
– School district.
– School district.
– School district.
– Silly decision by a local oficial later reversed. In fact, the backlash would suggest the opposite of “Christian persecution.”
– School district.
BTW, the fact that “…school is out during the last two weeks of December because the vast majority of students are celebrating Christmas…” is not a compelling argument for a public administration to declare a religious affiliation. It is neither appropriate nor allowable for the government to endorse a particular sect.
Medina, WA,…giving counter…
not sure if that’s in the list of anti christmas stuff. 1 parent complained their ugly aluminum giving tree had Christian overtones (not in my NT), and thus removed it.
Now they use a spare counter, called “the giving counter”
ha
Daddy Love @ 89,
So how do you explain the rest of my examples posted?
Coincidence?
I haven’t posted all of them either, there’s more examples of the “fictitious” attack on Christianity (this better describes what is happening in America today).
Daddy Love @89,
You said, “School district. Endorsement of religion not allowed by well-settled case law.”
Tell me where is the public outcry from the left (ACLU) over the indoctrination of public school students to the muslim religion (referenced in my original post)?
Also, I posted examples of other religious groups that were allowed to mention and celebrate their beliefs in the same public schools that would not allow the freedom to express “Christian” beliefs; why is that?
I think its funny… One of the righties up above, in the midst of complaining about the attacks on christianity and Christmas said it was cool for the megachurches to be closed, saying:”Where else should you spend Christmas, but with your family?”
You could spend it with your family in Christ, that is if Christmas really mattered to you and you weren’t just some dumb rightie clone thoughtlessly accepting the latest pregenerated rage…
More countries where Christians are persecuted.
Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Yemen, Laos, Brunei, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Morocco, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Syria.
Notice a pattern yet?
Jeez, Goldy- and to think that we right-wingers have been accused of seeing conspiracies under the bed!!!! FYI- not that you’d be concerned about the facts, but O’Reilly of Fox News is quite clear about who the “enemy” is- secular lefties and the anti- American ACLU!
jaybo-
Re: “your original post”
“U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton said Excelsior is not indoctrinating students about Islam when it requires them to adopt Muslim names and pray to Allah as part of a history and geography class, but rather is just teaching them about the Muslim religion…the judge ruled the program was devoid of “any devotional or religious intent,” and as therefore educational, not religious in nature…The final exam asked students for a critique of elements of Muslim culture…”
After 9/11, lots of schools gave their students a crash course in Islam. That’s not an establisment of religion, it is called education. But of course, it’s the kind of education that your boys are determined to halt. Are you saying that YOU deeply believe that this should not be taught because it is impermissible under separation doctrine?
Daddy Love @ 96,
You prove my point with your post. There is a clear “double standard in America today as proven by your post. You fail to even see that this case flies in the face of the separation of church and state arguement. Don’t you think that a discussion of discrimination could occur without the “indoctrination” of these students to the muslim religion?
Lets take the reference and change it to this;
“U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton said Excelsior is not indoctrinating students about Christianity when it requires them to adopt Christian names and pray to Jesus as part of a history and geography class, but rather is just teaching them about the Christian religion…the judge ruled the program was devoid of “any devotional or religious intent,” and as therefore educational, not religious in nature…The final exam asked students for a critique of elements of Christian culture…”
I wonder how cold hell would have to be before that happened…..
Redneck @ 58:
…if you can’t make an intelligent argument, resort to name calling.
That’s rich, especially since you were the one who introduced “Meskins” to our discourse. So let me know, was that just self-parody? Or, are you dumb enough to think that’s a term of respect?
BTW, anytime you want to respond to my point about interpreting the plain text of the 14th Amendment, feel free. Not that I’m expecting much…
Daddy Love @ 96,
Tell you what, I’m going to let you explain to the rest of us how the indoctrination of students into the Muslim reeligion does not violate the original Spreme Court ruling below.
“The Supreme Court’s first, and most comprehensive, statement about the meaning of the establishment clause is found in Justice Black’s majority opinion in Everson v. Board of Education (1947). Briefly, Everson concerned a New Jersey statute that subsidized transportation for students attending private religious schools. While the Court voted to uphold the statute, it rejected the narrow reading of the establishment clause in favor of a broadly separationist reading. A number of principles emerge from the case; most of them are to be found in the following, justifiably famous paragraph (which we have broken down into sections for clarity’s sake):
The “establishment of religion” clause of the First Amendment means at least this:
(1) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church.
(2) Neither can pass laws which aid one religion aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another.
(3) Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion.
(4) No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance.
(5) No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion.
(6) Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.
In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect “a wall of separation between church and State.””
Jaybo… Noone is worried that Muslims trying to establish an American theocracy. It is a local matter. From what has been posted, I wouldn’t agree with the program, but I am not too concerned, there being no trend.
“Wabbit – Is it still a lie if you leave out important parts of the story and ignore the context?”
Wassa matter wussie…pissed that somebody else might be STEALING your m.o.?
“jaybo”-
Go back to the compound in Idaho, man. You’ll be a LOT happier.
I spent my Christmas at home with My family. We did Midnight mass Christmas Eve….
What is the beef about a church not opening on one sunday out of the year? I just dont get it.
@ 103
Yeah, isn’t that like, Jesus’ birthday and stuff?
sven@102
Its about the hypocracy. These are the people complaining about the secularization and commercialization of Christmas. These are the people making a stink aboutthe “Assault on Christmas”.
But they don’t want to treat it as a religious holiday… not when it interferes with their fun.
I’m not saying that people should be herded into the churches…. but they oughta put their money where their mouth is.
Just another example of how all of this outrage is fake.
Why get so worked up about religion? It’s just our “best-guess” about where the universe came from. Nobody should take it seriously.
lib@105
I agree. Its not really about religion tho’
its about “Stirring up the groundlings and keeping them stirred up”
all politics to these guys.
Ahhh…
Goldy, it’s good to see you keeping up this Bullshit.
Okay, here is a quicK pop quiz….
If you have an Irish catholic daughter, how Jewish can your household really be?
Seems like your not exactly the proud jew you make yourself out to be, so do us all a favor and shut the fuck up.
Oh, jaybo, you really know how to illustrate willful ignorance.
Let’s start with your fascinating ability @ 86 to ignore what I wrote (in bold, even) when purporting to respond to what I wrote. You said: “I will breakdown your attack point by point” and then manage to skip all the important points. Weird.
1. Are the Christians a persecuted majority? What about Muslims?
Listing the names of a bunch of countries doesn’t really constitute “facts,” jaybo. If you’re looking for examples of discrimination against Muslims, I suggest you look for starters at countries like Russia, Turkey and France. And if you think this country is discrimination-free, well, that would be your willful ignorance again.
But Christians are the dominant religion on this whole continent, and are not persecuted for their Christianity anywhere in sight. You don’t get denied jobs, spit on, taunted or attacked for being a Christian. Like I said earlier, “Quit trying to play the ‘oppressed Christian majority’ victim card. It’s a load of hooey.”
2. Do you have religious freedom as an American, Christian or not?
I have a hard time believing you’re even arguing this question. But you’re insisting on quoting me selectively, so let me repeat a bit more of what I said above:
Daddy Love @ 89 and 96 addressed the inane examples you gave earlier, trying to imply that the prohibition on schools acting like churches is really something nefarious, when it’s not. Now if you’re going to try arguing by anecdote, I’m sure you can find examples of places that have crossed the line and places that have overreacted. But look at your own examples:
You do understand, don’t you, that religious freedom includes freedom from government-favored religion, especially when we’re talking about impressionable kids? The above incidents are good examples of the “problem with Christians wanting to use our government as a pulpit for their religious beliefs.”
I want to quote ADL chairman Abe Foxman here: “We embrace faith. We cherish faith. What we oppose is the imposition of one faith, one belief, one truth above all others. Everyone is entitled to his or her own truth. Everyone is not entitled to have or coerce everyone else to share it.”
Since you didn’t catch it in bold last time, let me try it in bold italics this time: This isn’t about a secular war on Christmas; it’s about Christian zealots attacking our government and our society for being religiously neutral and accommodating.
3. Are secular governments and societies the most intolerant of Jews?
jaybo, you claimed—stupidly, I’d say, not that you’d admit being wrong—“The truth is, there is less tolerance for Jews in nations that have drifted towards secular societies.” And that’s just laughable. Fundamentalist muslim nations aren’t tolerant of Jews, as you admit. Nor are many people in devoutly Christian nations. Ukraine has a university that’s teaching anti-Semitic hatred. European synagogues have been firebombed. Even in the U.S., we Jews are wary of religious groups that want to create an explicitly Christian nation, and Christian right-wing extremists like white supremacists (the “Christian Identity” movement). Secular, religiously neutral governments are the best protection for our religious liberty.
4. How does the right wing’s story of someone attacking Christmas cause problems for Jews?
I explained this before, but I’m happy to humor you, jaybo.
Blaming some nefarious, anti-Christian unseen actors (i.e., the Jews) for taking away your religious freedom—that encourages anti-Semitic feelings. Tell Christians that they are being oppressed (whether or not it’s true) and they will resent it. Many will resent Jews, who they personify in Jon Stewart or the ACLU or the Elders of Zion, perceiving them to be enemies of Christmas. People who buy the “War on Christmas” story are likely to assume it’s a Jewish plot against them. (Just like Mel Gibson showed us last year! Jews = Christ-killers.) And that’s not good for the Jews.
prriss joins the extemely bigoted “how Jewish can your household really be”
club!
Keep it up priss, the Neocons are really digging themselves a grave with each post like this!
Oh yeah, that’s biggotted you fucking idiot….
Here’s a quick newsflash, prouds Jews marry jews..
You think a kosher yenta will not allow you to put a contaminated plate in her dishwasher but will let you put a contaminated dick in her daughter?
Hey advocate, you might try reading what someone says before you respond, noone said you cant post which would be censorship. Criticizm is not censorship.
I said you should think about what you are posting. You simply claimed something that is a common lie (drinking blood of aborted fetuses on the solstice) told about pagans is true for you and your friends. That is about as funny to a pagan as claiming to be jewish then discussing your plot to take over the world would be to a jewish person.
I do have a sense of humor, someday you might try saying something funny, this in fact, wasnt.
You can say anything you want to, but by the same token, when you try to tell a joke that offends someone dont be too surprised when the person you offended calls you a jerk.
More biggotted info for you donna”fucking idiot” geddon
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/1480
Why Marry Jewish?
For the week ending 14 February 2004 / 22 Shevat 5764
by Doron Kornbluth
Dating, family life and Jewish survival
Studies have shown that most Jewish people today would like to marry other Jews. Yet studies have also shown that most Jewish people today do not end up marrying other Jews!
What happens?
After many years of research in the field, I’ve come to the conclusion that it boils down to one thing: many people see marrying another Jew as something “nice.” They don’t realize how important it is. Once they see it as important, they’ll do a few easy things that will make it happen.
So why is it important to marry other Jews? Obviously the ultimate reason is the Torah itself. The best way to ‘stop intermarriage’ is to turn Jews on to Jewish ideas and life– and visiting this site is a wonderful way to do it.
However, we also need to think short-term. With thousands of Jews marrying out of the faith each week, we need to explain why marrying other Jews is important for everyone, now, irrespective of Jewish knowledge and practice.
Happy Marriage
Researchers report that two-religion marriages have more tension and disagreements than comparable in-marriages. The causes for this tensions range from disagreements about which holidays to observe, which religious tradition to bring the kids up in, different embedded religious and cultural attitudes towards money and a host of other connected factors, and more. These “time bombs,” lead to significantly higher divorce rates (sometimes twice as high!) and lower “marital happiness” rates. With far fewer long-term problems to deal with, same-faith marriages have a much higher chance of being happy and successful than comparable intermarriages.
This is not surprising since practical issues can seriously affect a couple, despite their feelings for each other. Consider that, presumably, 99.99% of couples who get married are “in love.” Yet most of these couples get divorced, often quickly. Proof enough that love is not enough to overcome practical obstacles. And in intermarriages, the practical obstacles are often insurmountable.
Effects on Kids
Children look to parents as their bedrock of love, support, and care. In intermarriages, children sense – and see – a lack of unity between parents and it often hurts them deeply. When asked which she liked better, Christmas or Chanukah, one little girl responded, “Christmas – but you promise you won’t tell my daddy?” Think about it: what are the chances that this little girl will develop into a strong, self-confident young woman? It is not surprising that children of same-faith marriages are more likely to feel secure in their identities, and therefore exhibit higher self-esteem and confidence.
These two great dangers of intermarriage – lack of happiness and problematic environment for children – have been proven consistently over time and happen to be true for all religious intermarriages, whether Hindu-Muslim, Catholic-Protestant, or Christian-Jewish. They also happen to be true even if the non-Jewish spouse agrees to raise the kids Jewish, as time and time again earlier agreements are put back on the table as people get older. Whatever they agreed to previously, within 4-5 years of marriage, people often realize that they also value the traditions they were brought up with. Then all the problems start.
Jewishness
In intermarriages involving one Jew and one non-Jew, the sad reality is that study after study confirms that the vast, vast majority of intermarried families, Jewishness simply doesn’t last. Even amongst families where the kids are being raised as “Jews only,” 79% celebrate Christmas in some form. Only 11% of the children of intermarriage would be “very upset” if their kids did not regard themselves as Jews. Less than 10% of the children of intermarriage themselves marry Jews. When asked what one calls the grandchildren of intermarriage, Milton Himmelfarb is said to have answered, “Christians.”
Of course there are exceptions. However, in the vast, vast majority of cases intermarriages are seriously affected by some or all of these three factors: in the vast majority of cases your happiness and your kids’ stability and self-confidence depend on you marrying someone from the same religious background. Furthermore, when one marries another Jewish person, the chances of a family’s Jewishness lasting increase exponentially.
What about dating non-Jews?
For many people, especially in their late teens and early twenties, dating and marriage seem quite disconnected. It then seems quite reasonable to date non-Jews while still planning to marry Jewish in the end. “I’ll probably go out with many different people,” the person tells him or herself, “I have no intention of getting married now. When I’m ready to settle down, I’ll look for a nice Jewish person.”
Emotions are stronger than you think
Time and time again, the ‘it’s just a date’ approach has proven itself to be shortsighted. What I will call ‘interdating’ (Jews dating non-Jews) leads to intermarriage in two ways. Firstly, as you may have guessed, you may end up marrying the person you are “just dating” at the present time.
Consider the following statements:
“For the first six months I enjoyed going out with her, but had no serious intentions of getting involved…”
“I didn’t think it would become serious. At the time I was just going out and enjoying myself”
The quotes you just read are from real people, recounted in John Mayer’s book Jewish-Gentile Courtships. It was published in 1961, but the quotes could have been from any time or place. Simply put, we never know what will happen with a relationship. What can start out as an innocent summer romance might last much longer than expected and turn into a lifelong commitment. The first reason to date Jewish people is then clear – you never know when you’ll fall in love.
It’s all in the attitude
In order to understand the second reason to date Jewish people, let us shift our focus for a moment to the act of giving tzedakkah (charity). The great medieval Jewish sage known as Maimonides explained that it is better to give one dollar one hundred times than to give one hundred dollars all at one time. At first glance, this idea is surprising. After all, the same amount of money is being given. The explanation forms the basis for much of Jewish religious thought. External actions affect us internally. By giving charity one hundred times, we will slowly become more generous people. Giving once, even a lot of money, will not have the same effect.
I once tested it out. I kept a lot of small change on me and for a month whoever asked was given at least a small coin. At the beginning of the month, I felt quite proud of myself. Within a couple of weeks, it became normal – ‘of course I’ll try and help someone out,’ I thought to myself, ‘anyone would.’ Then I spent the next month without giving a dime, no matter how pathetic and needy the person was. At first I felt guilty. Those feelings didn’t last too long. By the end of the month, I resented every beggar I saw. ‘Why don’t they get a job? Why should my money go to them?’ I thought to myself.
What a radical change in attitude! By doing something on a regular basis, it becomes part of you. If you neglect it, it becomes less and less a part of you.
The interdating attitude
Our subject is similar. Even if you are not presently ready to get married, if you want to marry Jewish, dating non-Jews is still a bad idea because the more you date non-Jews, the more the idea of intermarriage seems normal. Over the long-term priorities change.
Already in the 1971 National Jewish Population Survey, researchers discovered the important but often overlooked statistic that Jews who intermarried were about four times more likely to have dated non-Jews during their late adolescent period than were those who did not intermarry. It is reasonable to assume that most did not marry their high school sweethearts – they simply fell into patterns of dating.
Let us consider an example of how this change in attitudes can work. Consider a college freshman from the New York named Scott, with relatively strong Jewish feelings. He wants to marry someone Jewish, and is 90% convinced that he will. Nevertheless, he continues dating non-Jews in the meantime. It is hard to blame him for thinking that it probably won’t do any harm – after all, he doesn’t plan on getting married for a decade, or more.
But four years of interdating and deepening relationships will inevitably change his perspectives and the 90% marrying-Jewish conviction may only be 50% by senior year. Why? At this point in Scott’s life the most profound relationships he has had have been with non-Jews. His models for relationships are non-Jewish models. He’s never had any religious problems with his non-Jewish partners. Even Scott’s taste in members of the opposite sex has been subtly changed – non-Jewish habits and a non-Jewish look, if they exist, seem normal to him now, not any less familiar than people from the Jewish community that Scott grew up with. He doesn’t even remember being convinced that marrying Jewish was so important.
When Scott gets a job in a city with few single Jews whom he can socialize with, his marry-Jewish conviction drops even lower. He spends two more years getting more and more comfortable with colleagues’ Christmas and Easter celebrations. His Jewish education, identity and feelings recede further and further into the background. Office romance has bloomed on more than one occasion and he finds that there is little that he doesn’t have in common with the attractive person in question. By the time he is ready to get married, marrying Jewish seems unrealistic and unnecessary. He intermarries.
You are what you do
The more people date non-Jews, the more likely they are to marry out. Because even if they don’t marry the person they are dating now, their own attitudes on the subject change with time. The idea of marrying a non-Jew becomes more and more acceptable at both a conscious and subconscious level, and what seemed very important to them ten years ago – marrying someone Jewish – has largely been forgotten.
112.
You are free to be unamused.
Please end the diatribe. You are a thin skinned idiot.
Fetus blood is quite beneficial, actually. Sipping it while reposing in my oxyginated coffin really is a pick-me-up.
prr @ 107, I have 2 brothers, a sister, and a Father (parents divorced) all of whom converted to Christianity sometime within the last 25 years. Only my mom and I still practice Judaism.
While I attend services at the local Chabad House, I still do not believe in a physical G-d, or as defined in Bartspeak, the invisible cloud being. None the less, I am an always will be a Jew, mostly because society as a whole constantly reminds me that I am a minority religion in a majority world.
In the 20 years that I spent in the Army, I constantly walked a tightrope, especially around December. When it came time for certain customs and traditions of my people, the reaction of my fellow soldiers ranged from disbelief (you do not celebrate Christmas?) to anger (Jesus is the only way SSG ???????. You will burn in hell if you do not acknowledge he died for your sins!)
On at least two occasions when I requested time off for the High Holy days such as Yom Kippur, my Senior NCOs accused me of making this stuff up, because they never heard of any religious holidays in September. I was only allowed it because of a memo put out by HQ that instructed Units to allow Jewish servicemen to attend services if it did not interfere with the mission. Even then, both of these clowns still found it hard to believe that anyone who was an American was not a Christian.
And of course, this does not even include the lesser items of having to sit quiet at official events when the Chaplin evoked a prayer in Jesus name, constantly refusing to attend any prayer breakfast (non-denominational was some how always dominated by the son of a carpenter), and my favorite of all, being forced to attend Protestant service during basic training even though the Chaplin specifically told my company commander that I did not have to attend (the CO thought everyone should attend, bless him).
Because I am a progressive, I refuse to grant any religion moral superiority, especially if it is endorsed by idiots like Bill O’Reilly and Don Wildmon as the Right religion and that only Right thinking people who know what is Right must do the Right thing and bow before the Righteousness of their Christian G-d. And if someone wants to give me a really nice Chanukah present, they would dump these theocratic bastards into the nearest sewer treatment plant.
Windie,
I dont think all the outrage is false. There are too many examples of institutional supression of the christian elemtns in christmas for it to be totally imaginary.
Maybe it is not as widespread and organized as some of the complainers insinuate. It does happen though, there are too many verifiable examples.
For my part, i have consistently said I think that christmas itself is as much a secular holiday as a christian one, and my beef is the supression of the word christmas itself without any understanding of the context. Simply saying Christmas is not an endorsement of Christianity anymore, not with so much of the holiday secularized.
So when these occasional supressions happen it is pointless on two levels. If they are supressing it for religious reasons, they missed the mark because they suppress just as many secular celebrations. and the christians who complain it is their faith being trampled need to move over for the secular people people who love Ralphie in A Chsristmas Story and just want to celebrate the spirit of Christmas in true Dicken’s fashion, and enjoy watching the Grinch Steal it again.
People are too hung up on the word.
Oog,
When I went through Air Force Basic, we had one Jewish guy in our Squadron. Every Saturday he was gone while we did Dorm details. No one begrudged him any trappings of his faith.
On Sundays, he often went to chapel with us who went, to get out of the barracks for a few hours.
In all the time I was Air Force, 12.5 years active and 2 years reserves, I never once saw any suppression orforcing of faith on anyone.
Just my 2 cents. One bad CO does not condemn the whole system.
Happy Chanukah, Commander Ogg.
I think we missed fire there, sven…
Its ‘fake outrage’ because they don’t really care at all about the religious element. if they did, they’d be at church..
but “Christmas is being attacked” at the same time as “We should be home with the family”… If you don’t see the dichotomy there, I dunno what to say.
They like being mad.
Sven: “One bad CO“? LOL. As if Cmdr. Ogg’s experiences were an isolated thing. And don’t forget the religious coercion that recently came to light at the US Air Force Academy. One bad apple? Give me a break. You have no idea what it’s like to be Jewish in a nation that assumes everyone is Christian. You have to deal with little slights all the time. (Like my condo association trying to have the Jews take down their mezzuzzahs—because the HOA rules only allowed “holiday” decorations, during December.) And major affronts far too often. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Commander Ogg,
Quite frankly, I don’t know which military you were in, nor what kind of jew does not believe in god…
Those people tend to be called Aetheists.
As an FYI, the official US military history of the jew US military go back to 1655, when they were allowed to join the militia, Rabbi’s serving in a chaplian capacity started arond the time of the civil war and continues on through today. So unless you are really old, your story does not hold any water.
Nice try on the Jewish guilt part though.
I’ll stick with my Cathloic Shame
prr says: “I’ll stick with my Cathloic Shame”
except prr has none.
“The religion of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man.”
— James Madison
“We establish no religion in this country, we command no worship, we mandate no belief. Nor will we ever. Church and state are, and must remain, separate. All are free to believe or not believe, all are free to practice a faith or not, and those who believe are free and should be free, to speak of and act on their belief. At the same time as our constitution prohibits state religion, establishment of it protects the free exercise of all religions. And walking this fine line requires government to be strictly neutral.”
— Ronald Reagan
“At a time when we see around the world the violent consequences of the assumption of religious authority by government, Americans may count themselves fortunate: our regard for constitutional boundaries has protected us from similar travails, while allowing private religious exercise to flourish. . . . Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?”
— Sandra Day O’Connor
“A Long History
Daniel Isaac Helmer, Cadet Sergeant, United States Military Academy–West Point
I am the Hillel president at the United States Military Academy. Cadets who attend the Academy receive free education, including a rigorous liberal arts academic program, a military development program, and a physical development program. Cadets graduate with a Bachelor of Science degree and a commission into the active duty Army as a second lieutenant. Graduates then owe the Army five years of active duty service.
Many people remain unaware of the long American military history of the Jewish people. Two hundred years ago, in 1802, the US Military Academy graduated its first class of two students. One of them, Simon Levy, was Jewish. Since that time, Jews have been an integral part of the history of the Military Academy. In the 1980s, the West Point Jewish Chapel, a beautiful $10 million facility, was opened. This year, in honor of 200 years of Jewish history at the Military Academy, the Jewish Chapel is building a commemorative wall to record and recognize all of the Jewish graduates of West Point.
Currently there are about 70 Jews at the Military Academy out of a student population of approximately 4,000. We have a very active Jewish population and are beginning to sponsor numerous Jewish activities. Jewish students from other schools have visited West Point twice this year, once for a “Weekend of the Jewish Warrior” and the second time for a Hanukkah party. Both activities attracted numerous students from other colleges and universities in New York. We also have a West Point Jewish Chapel Choir, which has performed all over the East Coast.
I truly hope that civilian Jewish college students will become more aware of both their contemporaries in uniform and their rich military heritage. “
in typical rightie troll fashion, prr takes press releases at greater value than 1st hand experience.
Did I say typical? Oh yeah! i DID!
David,
Ethnically I AM jewish, I am just a practicing Christian.
Windie
Its ‘fake outrage’ because they don’t really care at all about the religious element. if they did, they’d be at church..
Now who is telling people *how* they must worship? I think that particular outrage is misplaced, because you assume what they must do for their faith to make it real. I dont presume to tell anyone when they must attend or not attend. If a particular congregation decides a different method for a particular day, that is left to them to do so.
And to take two isolated congregation’s actions and establish hypocrisy against all christians because of it is purely spurious logic.
but “Christmas is being attacked” at the same time as “We should be home with the family”… If you don’t see the dichotomy there, I dunno what to say.
Because to me Christimas is as much about family as it is about church. Growing up, my family didnt go to any church at all, we just had christimas at home and with our grandparents, all in a purely wonderful and secular method. Christmas has meaning to people who just love holiday traditions.
All the fuss about christmas crosses a lot of boundaries, and people on all sides refuse to see that.
I wish they would all just shut up and enjoy it.
Sven,
Don’t waste your breath on that vile pig, windie…
all the fuss about christmas is FAKE.
Thats my whole point :p
but I think we’re not gonna bridge this gap. we’re just not communicating :)
We’d all be better off if we returned to the olf earth-based religions that pre-date today’s modern religions.
PRR,
Windoe and I have a fairly decent understanding, and often agree to disagree.
“all the fuss about christmas is FAKE…”
you mean like our State “holiday tree” or Medina elementary school having to take down a tree, etc, etc….
I’m curious windi, what went wrong?
Are you some spoiled, fat, ugly chick, we is still upset at her Dad for being out sea too much?
Windie,
As I said, there are too many documented things that have happened to say it is fake. i guess we agree to disagree on that.
I think though that many peoiples claims about it are exagerated, but that will wait for another day.
But like it or not, political correctness has taken the mere word Christmas and made it one of the unmentionables in too many forums.
Dickens would be horrified…..
Prr @ 122, I advocate neither Jewish guilt nor Catholic Shame. I never once used my religion as an excuse to avoid or wore it on my sleeve as a weapon of attack. I never even mentioned it unless the topic came up in normal conversation. Judaism to me is like skin color or gravity, it exists but it is no big deal. However, like gravity certain rules do apply. Thou shall not worship in a Christian Church, thou shall not celebrate Christian Holidays, and most important, THOU SHALL NOT ENFORCE THY BELIEFS ON THE GENTILE (non Jew).
I sometimes wish my Christian brothers and sisters would spend less time worrying about religion in public and spend more time practicing it in private. (Matthew 6:5-6)
Whose preaching?
I just don’t want your political views taking away from my religious rights?
Lets face it, if you spent 20 years in the military and never were able to practice judaism, you are too stupid to deserve the time off.
The UCMJ clearly spells out religious freedom, there are jewish chaplains. And if you were not in contact with one, your chaplian would have put you in contact with one.
Bottom line, if you don’t like a christmas tree or the words, merry christmas, don’t say them.
I’d be very interested to hear what would happen if people started taking away the rights to say Shalom in public
Almost forgot David @ 119, thanks.
prr @ 125 quotes a West Point Hillel press release: “I truly hope that civilian Jewish college students will become more aware of both their contemporaries in uniform and their rich military heritage.”
Many Jews are fully aware that there are Jews in the U.S. military—not to mention the entire Israeli military, the IDF. Jews do indeed have a rich military heritage; in fact, this week of Chanukah celebrates, in part, the improbable military victory of the Hasmoneans (nice Jewish family, aka Maccabees) over the Greek-Syrians under Antiochus IV.
The point you’re missing is that in the U.S. (and the U.S. military), it’s often a bit tougher to be a Jew because everyone assumes you’re a Christian just like everyone else.
Sven @ 127 touts his credentials: “Ethnically I AM jewish, I am just a practicing Christian.”
This makes you a Christian. You (or your parents) assimilated or converted. The fact that your ancestors were Jews doesn’t make you Jewish. Sorry.
Sven @ 134: “political correctness has taken the mere word Christmas and made it one of the unmentionables in too many forums.”
Liar. This is a myth. Stop spreading it.
Prr @ 136, you still miss the point. It is not that I was unable to practice Judaism. It is a climate of attempting to live in a Christian society when you are not Christian, without trying to sound like you are wining or sniveling, or being patronized(Oh the poor Jew/Moslem/Wiccan, he is so helpless).
It is the unspoken threat of retaliation, while illegal even in the military, that always hangs over your head should you get too uppity about demanding respect: Air Force probes religious bias charges at academy.
It is the attempt to justify religious discrimination under the color of authority or false reasoning: School district reverses decision on star of david.
Most of all, it is knowing, as in the example above, that no one ever questions any request by any Christian concerning any aspect of their religion. But somehow, people are constantly questioning whether anything outside of mainstream Christianity is a real religion: The Army’s Wiccans are not a broomstick brigade
prr says: “I’d be very interested to hear what would happen if people started taking away the rights to say Shalom in public”
I’d be very interested to see what would happen if shadowy, nefarious “people” started somehow “taking away the rights” of oppressed Americans to say “Merry Christmas” in public. Or “Happy New Year.” Or “fuck you, asshole.” But I don’t see that happening (except in that dystopic place called right wing fantasy land).
David,
I didnt even know I was of Jewish descent till a bout 2 years ago, so I claim nothing by it, just that I found it an inteest footnote to my genetics.
As for Christmas, you are in denial sir.
The truth is extremely and painfully obvious and you are wrong. I do not claim it is widespread, nor do I claim it is as oppressive as the complainers indicate. But when a school ahs to waste my tax dollars to reprint a menu for the crime of having the word Christmas on it, it seems to be true that the word is out of place in soem places, and as it has a historical, traditional, literary and secular meaning, it should not be.
Deal with it. If more people would deal with the realities, the O’Reilly’s would have no ground to stand on. By denying the affects of political correctness on Christmas, you allow him to chose the battle ground.
David apprently forgot about Ron Sims memo last year…..
Sven @ 143, Mainstream NEWS link to this incident?
sven: There may or may not be a movement to get rid of Christmas… Its not really my point tho; The anger is fake, or maybe manufactured. Thats what I mean :p (And yes I know you feel there is. I think its mostly market forces, myself. I bet you sell more with ‘holiday stuff’ rather than with ‘christmas stuff’)
PS prr: eat me. You’re just mad because I see through your little ‘troll act’ and show you what a waste of sperm you actually are.
Ogg,
Thanks for proving my point.
In your example of the Star of David, the boy had a right to wear it. Also, they did not start calling the star of David “the celebration star”.
I wish the same could be said for our christmas tree, which is not a holiday tree, or a giving tree.
To which event? the menus? it was local, nad has been mentioned here before.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/.....6568c.html
District yanks ‘Merry Christmas’ menus
THE NEWS TRIBUNE
Published: December 7th, 2005 02:30 AM
The Federal Way School District has recalled monthly lunch menus for students at its 23 elementary schools because they were printed with the greeting “Merry Christmas.”
Windie,
Seems like I hit the nail on the head.
Let me guess, unmarried, bitter with father issues?
Wow, what a shock it is that you are a liberal democrat.
I’d hazzard a guess that a volvo with a free tibet sticker has been in your past as well.
Windie,
sven: There may or may not be a movement to get rid of Christmas… Its not really my point tho; The anger is fake, or maybe manufactured. Thats what I mean :p (And yes I know you feel there is. I think its mostly market forces, myself. I bet you sell more with ‘holiday stuff’ rather than with ‘christmas stuff’)
Thanks for clearing that up.
I will concede there is likely a generous mixture of people who feel real outrage and those who see it as a convenient cause to push other agenda.
In my case, I hate political correctness in general. so my outrage is real. Christmas used to be a lot more fun, and I am sorry my kids have had to miss portions of it I used to look forward to.
my ‘holiday story’
When I was in elementary school, there was one kid… His parents were Jehovahs Witnesses. I’m just barely old enough to remember ‘christmas break’, and we did all the holiday parties in class…
Except for him. He sat out in the hall. During the halloween party, in the hall. During the Christmas and Easter party, in the hall.
I used to think his parents were awful… But now I’m not sure.
Sven @ 143: “The realities” are that you (and the O’Reillys out there) are only peeved that our government and schools can’t promote Christmas, can’t favor it. That our public institutions have to be religiously neutral and accommodating. That’s just the way it is! Deal with it.
And stop with the bull about a “War on Christmas” and false claims that you’re not allowed to say “Christmas” in public any more. It’s a lie and you know it. There are no “political correctness” police. There is a First Amendment, and if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with what America is all about.
prr: yes, no, no, no, no.
Guess 1 for 5 isn’t bad :p
seriously, theres nothing to be said to you. Why should I waste my time with anything other than insults? You’re not interested in discussion, you’re not interested in working out compromises… You’re interested in making people mad and yelling to the skies your loyalty to the corruption that passes for the modern GOP. I waste real discussion for people that actually want to work things out.
prr @ 147: “In your example of the Star of David, the boy had a right to wear it.”
Yes, although you’re missing Ogg’s point—if the Christian cross were a gang symbol, do you think the administrators would have tried to ban students from wearing them? And yet the Jewish kid has to fight for the right to wear his own religious symbol.
But yes, he was eventually allowed to wear it, which is right. And kids can wear crosses, and pray in class, and say grace over their meals, no problem. But the school can’t put up a cross, or mandate prayer, or broadcast grace (“in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, amen”) over the PA. Do you see the distinction?
Windie,
Seems like the bitter and father issues shoud be added onto that list as well. Considering you’ve mentioned that he is a retird Navy captain, his politics are definitely not in line with your, as to the bitterness, go back and read any of your posts.
So I’ll take the 3 out of 5 victory.
Also, you forgot to mention your other Holiday story that will be the next item for assault by the democrats.
I’d hazzard a guess that when you weere little all the other girls in class got valentines cards and knowfeel that valetines day needs to be villified.
Now, go back and read my posts on the subject posted. I’ve offered valid reasons where there is a war on Chistmas in this state and your choose to ignore it. Additional, have noted that Goldy is a hack as far as being a Jew and his opinions on this subject are for shock value only. Clearly the man is a patheic loser and a complete failure as a role model for his kids.
My God, you laughable skank. You wax poetic about the Little Jehovahs Witnesses kid in your class. So your solution is to let him sit in the classroom while all the other Students are made to stand in the Hall?
Some schools will overdo it, and others will cross the line. But this is a manufactured controversy; Christmas is not under attack.
See ya later.
David,
Why do you insist on attributing things to me that I have not said? I will not be baited.
Sven @ 143: “The realities” are that you (and the O’Reillys out there) are only peeved that our government and schools can’t promote Christmas, can’t favor it. That our public institutions have to be religiously neutral and accommodating. That’s just the way it is! Deal with it.
I dont care if it is favored, I only care that it is not suppressed, in a proper secular traditional fashion, sans nativity scenes and any mention of christ altogether. I dont care if the role model is the grinch stole christmas or Ralphie trying to sahoot his eye out, the mere mention of the word should not cause trembling and outrage.
And stop with the bull about a “War on Christmas” and false claims that you’re not allowed to say “Christmas” in public any more.
Checking….no i didnt say that. I said use of the word in certain forums is frowned upon. And it is. Federal Way School district is proof in point. And while i won’t say you are not allowed, there are too many places it is discouraged.
It’s a lie and you know it. There are no “political correctness” police. There is a First Amendment, and if you have a problem with that, then you have a problem with what America is all about.
How did what I just said, or have said in this thread even come close to the first ammendment? How can my advocation for total inclusiveness of secular traditions even come close?
How is my desire to see all holidays on an equal footing a bad thing?
Have I demanded a lit Nativity scene to counter the Lighted Menorah on Front St in Issaquah? Nope. I ask for nothing regarding Christmas of a religious nature except the use of the word itself which has a religous meaning, because my point for the nth time, is that the secular use of the word and the holiday is getting tossed out too in the name of religous sensitivity.
Stopping Christmas Imagary while allowing Jewish and Islamic images would seem a larger violation of the 1st ammendment.
I still cannot see why this is a hard concept. Political correctness concerning chiristmas is blatant.
prr: you know nothing at all about me. I admire you striving mightily to piss me off tho. Transparent, but your’e trying so hard!
Speaking of parents… and relationships, I think its telling that you can’t comprehend that people can disagree politically and still get along quite well. I suppose its the GWB US OR THEM! zombie mentality… But its shallow, and stupid. Then again, who’m I talking to…?
Oh yeah, your misogyny is showing… If you can’t figure out how, lemme know~ I give hints to the dull-minded :p
whups forgot to close my bold :p
Ah well :)
David,
Stop spinning this story about things it’s not about.
It’s about Christmas, the right to say Christmas, or even Christmas tree. Not to change the names of the Objects.
This is what pisses people off. And one of the things you clowns don’t get. It’s not the far right, christian wackos who are upset about this. It’s the middle of the road, swing voters who have said, “this is a bunch of Bullshit” and have had enough.
If you don’t want a Christmas tree in Public, at least have the balls to say, we don’t want to have a tree at all, rather than sugar coating your intentions by calling it a Holiday Tree. Or as Goldy “today I am a Jew” Goldstein would say, “The Childrens Holiday Tree”.
To make maters worse, you fuckers now deny that this is even happening…..
155
Actually I can echo that story. In my 4th grade we had to deal with the same issue, and my teacher made sure to do so as sensitvely as possible.
Also having an uncle who is JW, my family, which has a large traditional christmas celebration had to be respectful.
But my uncle never professed outrage at the family continuing the traditions, nor did he try and force the issue upon any other family members, he just asked for and was given respect. We don’t rub his nose in it. And at family reunions, it isnt mentioned.
Windie,
You are the one who is transparent.
Kinda like leaving the Bold letters on, It’s because your emotions are up. This tells me, as I have assumed, that I am hitting the nail right on the head.
As to my Mysogyny, in this overly feminized City I have no problems with being called a misogynist. Thanks for the compliment.
Now, go do my Laundry and make me my dinner.
there ya go.
a few hits for trolls:
a) “no, you are!” isn’t good discussion, argument, or trolling. It just makes you look infantile
b) The ‘you’re mad, I’m not’ argument is ooooold. you’re not fooling anyone.
c) I can’t cook, so you’re outta luck :p
BTW,
Windie, Thanks for bring up a point.
If we are so worried about offending Jehovahs Witnesses, then why are they knocking on my door on Saturday Afternnons pushing their beliefs on me?
Is that not a violation of my rights?
hints maybe?
;)
PRR,
Sorry I didnt realize that Windie was in charge of the JW police…..
Its only a violation of your rights if you cannot say no thank you and close the door…which is what I do to them or to Mormons or Moonies or Hare Chrisnas or anyone else prostelizing.
Sheesh…sometimes I really wonder what your motivation really is. It certainly isn’t rational debate.
David @ 154, exactly.
Would the school board have banned a cross as a “gang symbol” prr? Why the hell did the ACLU have to threaten the stupid bastards that sat on the Harrison County School Board with a lawsuit before they changed their mind. And the HCSB knew that the policy was illegal.
Mind you, it was not as bad as the wiccan student. She had to go to district court:
http://www.libertarianrock.com.....wsuit.html
NO ONE questions the majority (Christian) religion. Ever.
(yay something we can talk about!)
its funny, JW’s always argue the bible… they must have a hard time at nonChristians houses ;)
as for us, we had a Bible that we’d especially marked up to argue with JW’s… they must’ve hated that.
as to your question; Private citizens can’t really violate your rights (Yes I know the government has argued that killing someone is a violation of their civil rights… but that always struck me as an excuse to get lynchings out of local courts :p)
If they were allowed to go to the front of the class and do a presentation about how holidays were evil, or how there is no immortality of the soul… that would be a violation of rights.
PS: another story. When I was in college and doing a speech class, we ended up doing a group presentation on religions… It was awful. We had a Jew, an Athiest, 2 Christians (including me) and someone who didn’t care.
Everyone did a prostelatyzing (sp) speech except for me (I did Islam, and got in trouble for being percieved as too un-PC… Mohummed is a sellout :p). It was simply awful. Half the problem was the environment… It was just not appropriate for people to be trying to sell their faith in the class… and everyone felt it. One of the most uncomfortable times ever in 18 or so years of school…
Why Does the ACLU do anything?
Why do they protect child molesters as well?
sven: Hehe, I take it as a victory if they’re not outright insulting me… at least rhetorical questions, I can answer :D
@170
because they protect everyone. for the record, there really is a difference between saying child abuse isn’t abuse and being a child abuser. One is a crime and the other is very very creepy, but is protected speech.
Actually didnt the banning of crosses (specifically Rosary beads) just happen albeit briefly in Lake Chelan?
They banned them as a sign of gang affiliation, but after protest they lifted the ban.
Just for info sake only….
The story of the ban:
http://www.komotv.com/stories/40067.htm
The rescinding of the ban:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ary11.html
and for fun, Ken Schrams Commentary about the ban:
http://www.komotv.com/kenschram/story.asp?ID=40090
rosaries as gang symbols? Now thats just silly :p
Windie…
On this issue of the ACLU and Child Molestation.
Lets talk specifically about theit involvement with Deefnding NAMBLA.
How can you possible justify this?
Sven, I stand corrected (another thing about us progressives, we can admit we were wrong.
In my defense, I should have said the majority (Protestant Christian) religion. Country has always had a long history of anti-Catholicism.
Ogg,
So can moderates.
PRR,
They defended them for a speech issue, not as an endorsement of their actions or beliefs.
If you read the actual case details, you might know that.
Ogg….
I am sure I’ll be called a nazi or a facist, or whatever.
But I interpret what they are doin as aiding in the continued molestation and torture of young children.
You do not defend a child molester by trying to lower the age of consent of their victims.
prr:
Others have done it better than I, so I don’t really need to say anything to you ’bout it.
your comment @180 is just despicable tho’. You’re purposely (from the moment you brought NAMBLA up, actually) twisting the discussion so you can accuse people you hate of being/supporting child abusers.
Wouldn’t call you nazi, or fascist… (well not over this) just deliberately dishonest. Anything to “win” eh?
re: 181 ‘others have done it better than I’ refers to 178 and 179. One of which is a post by a moderate-right commentator~
Must be me…..:D
What are you talking about?
Ogg brought up the issue of the ACLU and I pointed out. here is my problem with the ACLU.
If pointing out their involvement is this wrong can be considered being dishonest. Then yes, I am a lying scumbag.
PRR
Specifically, the ACLU defended them regarding a $200 million wrongful death lawsuit.
Salvatore Sicari and Charles Jaynes picked up fifth-grader Jeffrey Curley and took the boy to the Boston Public Library where Jaynes accessed NAMBLA’s website. Later, the men attempted to sexually assault Curley, but the boy fought back. Attempting to restrain him, Jaynes gagged the 10-year-old with a gasoline-soaked rag, eventually killing him. The men put Jeffrey’s body in a tub with concrete and threw it in a river.
Both killers are now serving life sentences. The family filed the lawsuit against NAMBLA and the Internet service provider that hosted its site, arguing their son might still be alive were it not for the group and its website.
According to Curley family attorney Larry Frisoli, Jaynes kept a diary in which he wrote that he turned to NAMBLA’s website in order to gain psychological comfort for what he was about to do. The killer had been stalking Curley prior to the boy’s murder and possessed various materials from the clandestine group.
I have no like or support for nambla, i think its a sick organization and a depraved one as well. It has nothing to do with torture, rape (I am not addressing the convention of legal rape, I am specifcally referencing the physical act of forcible sexual acts against an unwiulling participant) and murder.
Yes, they want to legalize consensual sex between boys and men, which is sick and repugnant to me, and in this country illegal. They can however go to Canada where the age of consent is 14.
Regardless, the truth demands the admission that they do not advocate murder or torture.
For what it’s worth, not that you are concerned with the facts.
By the way, I got all that info from a 5 second google search….
prr=CINO (Christian in Name Only)
prr @ 184 Disagree. I mentioned the ACLU protecting minority religious freedom. You pointed out the ACLU defending NAMBALA, off topic.
Give me one organization that is so perfect you agree with 100% of its doctrine. And if you only agree with 98%, would you still belong to that group?
Carat @ 186,
I am not a Christian, I am a Catholic.
prr@188
because, of course… Catholics aren’t followers of Christ.
yer a dumbass.
To steal from Dan Akroyd, Ah… Windie, you ignorant Slut.
The word Christian is used three times in New Testament (Acts 11:26; Acts 26:28; 1 Peter 4:16). Followers of Jesus Christ were first called “Christians” in Antioch (Acts 11:26) because their behavior, activity, and speech were like Christ. It was originally used by the unsaved people of Antioch as a kind of contemptuous nickname used to make fun of the Christians. It literally means, “belonging to the party of Christ” or an “adherent or follower of Christ,” which is very similar to the way Webster’s Dictionary defines it.
Unfortunately over time, the word “Christian” has lost a great deal of it significance and is often used of someone who is religious or has high moral values instead of a true born again follower of Jesus Christ. Many people who don’t believe and trust in Jesus Christ consider themselves Christians simply because they go to church or they live in a “Christian” nation. But going to church, serving those less fortunate than you, or being a good person does not make you a Christian. As one evangelist once said, “Going to church doesn’t make one a Christian anymore than going to a garage makes one an automobile.” Being a member of a church, attending services regularly, and giving to the work of the church cannot make you a Christian.
PRR, so why identify yourself as not being a christian because you are catholic?
I know many christians preach just that, but why would you agree?
as a catholic, you dont believe you are a follower of christ?
I think… man I can’t be right
If I read prrs post right he’s basicly saying that he’s a hypocrite himself. But that can’t be what he means.
I’m not catholic, maybe it makes sense to other catholics ;)
I guess the real question is, Am a a devout Christian, which clearly, I am not, or am I a member of the catholic church?
As an example, I would not turn the other cheek, have my own opinions on Birth control, abortion, etc….
Loosley defined I would say I am a Christmas and Easter Catholic.
I guess, it’s kinda like Goldy calling himself a Jew, he was born into and and that’s the only reason he can call himself one.
Windie, there is no shame is saying that you don’t have any idea what the distinction is between a Christian and a Catholic, which you obviously don’t…..
But at leats admit you were wrong in your previous post.
yesss he did it again:
Prr is a self-described hypocrite… thats just great :)
just for you prr, maybe I’m not a rabid sectarian like you. If I went around and said “Catholics aren’t Christians” I’d get myself into alot of trouble really quick.
POLITICS
2005 Media Follies!
by Geov Parrish
Rossi vs. Gregoire. The court case devolved into Republicans dragging out a stunningly weak legal argument so that they could repeat, endlessly, their unsubstantiated charges of vote fraud and a massive conspiracy by King County Elections. They were essentially laughed out of court, but not before months of credulous coverage of their bogus claims. Anyone notice that in 2005 King County Elections performed nearly flawlessly?
http://www.seattleweekly.com/f.....arrish.php
Wow windie, Ignorance is bliss.
Now wonder your dad thinks you are waste of life.
flawlessly??????
Nothing like a KCRE employee claiming their stuff doesn’t stink!
It does and KCRE will make national headlines again in 08. King County embarassed the entire state with their shenanigins! Maybe if the King County Coroner stopped selling brains from dead people (without permission) things might get right up there!
As it is, you have an intelligence loss……….
prr @ 190
Do you really think that your idiosyncratic definition of “christian” is one we should accept? If so, why?
Merriam-Webster
http://www.m-w.com
Christian:
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1) : DISCIPLE 2 (2) : a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3) : a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
Encarta
Chris·tian [kríschən]
1. believer in Jesus Christ as savior: somebody whose religion is Christianity
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
American Heritage
http://www.bartleby.com/61/20/C0332000.html
Chris·tian
NOUN: 1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
nice try, prr… but no cigar. You’ve gotta do better than that to troll me. All that litte jab shows is that you know you’ve written yourself into a corner…
At least I know what “Christian” actually means.
sgmmac
It is my understanding that the error rate in the recent 2004 statewide election was quite low, and especially so in KC.
What would qualify as “nearly flawlessly” to you? I mean, for example, given an elderly all-volnteer polling place staffing system?
Daddy love…
Do you really think that you can so ignorantly classify an entire belief system by looking up an All encompasing definition on Encarta?
BTEW, Windie, i still hold with the belief that you are a vile CUNT
of course you hate me! I make you look bad all the time… And you righties aren’t used to being called on you BS.
If the best you can do is make up stuff about my family and call me a cunt, I think its time to call no contest. This clearly isn’t a fair fight.
Poor guy… ya didn’t even make it 3 rounds!
Maybe he has a crush on you, like grade school kids who hit the girl they like……
Its a little early to be announcing Progressive Majority candidates for 2006, but I AM happy to report that Former Senate Majority leader, Republican Bill Finkbeiner earned (by way of his uber-right wing votes on issues like whether it