Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.
Discuss.
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Spiritual Death
Off to Church.
Purpose of life is to know God better thru worship and studying Scripture.
In the end, what else is there???
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Leviticus 5:21-26
“If someone commits a sin of dishonesty against the LORD by denying his neighbor a deposit or a pledge for a stolen article, or by otherwise retaining his neighbor’s goods unjustly,
22
or if, having found a lost article, he denies the fact and swears falsely about it with any of the sinful oaths that men make in such cases,
23
he shall therefore, since he has incurred guilt by his sin, restore the thing that was stolen or unjustly retained by him or the deposit left with him or the lost article he found
24
or whatever else he swore falsely about; on the day of his guilt offering he shall make full restitution of the thing itself, and in addition, give the owner one fifth of its value.
25
As his guilt offering he shall bring to the LORD an unblemished ram of the flock of the established value. When he has presented this as his guilt offering to the priest,
26
the latter shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he will be forgiven whatever guilt he may have incurred.
Will Kemper Freeman be returning the appropriated real estate, with 20% penalty, to all the interred Japanese-Americans?
I don’t know why the Bible puts it this way. It is saying that if a man is on the down low, has both male and female lovers, the two lovers must be put to death. Why the prohibition against one male lover and one female lover? What if he had two male lovers and one female lover? Or two female lovers and one male lover?
And does this also cover catamites?
And what if they only do oral and don’t go “all the way”? Dry humping? Does that count?
Early prostelytizers of Christianity issued fatwas allowing the converted goyem relief from following the strange Jewish dietary and sexual laws (cf circumcision). Therefore this admonition has no more standing than any of the (numerous) others.
This demonstrates yet again the law of the Infinite Elasticity of The Word.
I really like this one:
Lev 19:33-34
33
“When an alien resides with you in your land, do not molest him.
34
You shall treat the alien who resides with you no differently than the natives born among you; have the same love for him as for yourself; for you too were once aliens in the land of Egypt. I, the LORD, am your God.
That really puts the lie to the jingoist, nativist anti-immigrant strain within the Tea Party/Minuteman/Republican rabble.
If one is honest and seeking consistency, that is.
@7
Yes, but there is no prohibition against molesting alien women. That’s good, because some of them are pretty hot.
This could be trouble:
Lev 21:13
13
“The priest shall marry a virgin.
Remember, God hates shrimp!
Leviticus 11:9-12
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.
@2 So many wonderful things.
So, in Chapter 25, aliens don’t fare so well…
44
“Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you buy them from among the neighboring nations.
45
You may also buy them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves you may own as chattels,
46
and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen.
So, if we were on Pandora, we could by slaves from the Na’vi?
Buy slaves. Fucking edit button doesn’t work because I “don’t have permissions”. Maybe it does.
I find accidentally stepping in warm dog poo an abomination unto me.
How ’bout you?
The Bible is nothing more than a Harry Potter novel for bigots.
But with so many Gods to choose from, how are we ever gonna know which one(s) to worship?
I was having a conversation with my pregnant (and emotional) wife the other day and she was crying. She was being overly dramatic about the health of the baby and what not. I’m sure many of us have had this similar experience. At one point she said to me “What if there are problems?!?!?” with tears coming out of her eyes. The answers that went through my head were:
1. Don’t worry babe. If anything happens we’ll take care if it and we’ll work past it. Don’t worry.
or
2. It’ll be Gods will. There is nothing we can do about the decisions he makes.
At that point it became clear to me. Religion is nothing more than a cop-out from confronting difficult issues. How ofter does someone just slap down the God card to explain something when they have nothing else to say?
It’s all clear now.
Wow. I totally misread this.
I thought “do not lie with a man as with a woman” meant something like, if a guy asks you if these pants make his ass look fat, tell him the truth. “Yes, those pants make your ass look fat.”
This could cause problems with my boyfriend. He’s sensitive that way.
A complaint by the religious about the Quote of the Week, at least offered quite a bit last week, was that it was taken out of context, and therefore subject to ridicule inappropriately.
Well, having reread Leviticus this morning (it’s really not that long), it’s interesting the context that this passage is taken from. It seems that this is an oft-quoted verse used by fundies and other bigots to justify homophobia, and seems quite straight-forward and unambiguous. However, look at the context: a compendium of rules for a neolithic society, some reasonable (don’t have sex with your sister) and some irrelevant, archaic, bizarre (nature and meaning of animal sacrifice, proscription against cloth made with multiple fibers, approval of slavery, uncleanliness of menstruation and ejaculation, etc.)
How does one pick and choose which ones to obey and which to disregard as irrelevant?
Well, you don’t. It is what it is – an ancient text, a cultural artifact, interesting historically. Some good lessons certainly contained, but a collection of god’s infallible and absolute will? Certainly not. And certainly not any sort of basis for a system of government (not any more than is a soggy wench distributing weaponry).
@19
Funny! I know I have had too much to drink when a woman asks, “Does this beer make me look good?”
@18
And when that little baby makes its noisy way into the world, see if you don’t hold it for the first time and think, “Thank you, Jesus.” Happened to me, and I kicked the Jesoid habit when I was 16.
Men who live with women exclusively end up dead, too, and all the women also end up dead, so it doesn’t seem to make any difference.
Poll Shows Work Is Stigmatized
A Pew Research Center poll shows most contemporary Americans refuse to call themselves “working class.”
Political scientist Angela Ledford told AOL News “the term ‘working class’ has lost its luster and denotes a lack of success now.”
Ledford said, “Whether they earn $300,000 or $20,000, people think of themselves as middle class.” In other words, they don’t want to be associated with the derogatory term “work.”
http://www.aolnews.com/article.....s/19375827
Roger Rabbit Commentary: Social conventions reflect the realities of people’s lives. Americans who once proudly called themselves “workers” or “working class” have figured out that work is unrewarded in modern American. Of course, they’ve known this for a long time, as real wages stood still for 40 years even while employers’ demands for education, skill, and productivity increased dramatically, and the wealthy became vastly wealthier. They were, perhaps, a little slower in figuring out that work is not only unpaid in this country, but also is disrespected. “Workers” are now considered fools, suckers, saps by their neighbors. So, nobody wants to be called a “worker” or “working class” anymore, because that is tantamount to “failure,” which is only one step above “criminal.”
It seems to me that one of two things must be true. Either this country has its collective head up its ass, where it’s habit of not rewarding or respecting work is concerned, or work has become obsolete and is bad for society, and people shouldn’t do it anymore. I don’t know the answer to that, but my guess is it’s the latter, so I don’t work anymore and spend my time grazing coin off the top of the financial system like everyone else does. Even if there’s no legitimate self-respect in ripping off mutual fund managers and other amateur stock flippers, at least I get a lower tax rate out of it.
I wonder if there was a translation error from the ancient manuscripts and that passage really reads:
“If a man lies like a Republican, he is abominable; and has caused the deaths of many, whose blood is on his hands.”
Shorter Rabbit @24
Vices —-> Virtues
Virtues —-> Vices
@2 Take your time; you need all the church you can get.
@3 Goddam. Sounds like a judgment to this old lawyer, enforceable in the next world, if not this one. Bet the Republicans don’t realize they’re gonna have to cough up everything they stole at the Pearly Gates.
Up ’til now, Christine Gregoire held the record for the biggest legal verdict ever, with her $235 billion settlement against the tobacco companies, but it looks like God just one-upped her. This is going to be worth trillions, if not gadzillions.
WOW all this scripture — it reads jsut like the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.
NOT!!
@26 I often get a feeling that I’ve fallen down a rabbit hole and am now in Wonderland.
“I am the word. Stop putting words in my mouth.” — God
@20 “It is what it is – an ancient text, a cultural artifact, interesting historically.”
You’re right, this writing harks back to a time — before science — when people believed an eclipse meant God was angry because they hadn’t burned enough witches yet, so they rounded up some more of their neighbors and barbecued ’em.
Liberal Scientist
Riddle me this–
If the world is real and there is order…how did the order come about?
Isn’t it possible that God exists…whether you believe it or not?
Look, the Bible discusses the battle against the Bible. It discusses the Despiser’s, Disregarders, Dissectors and Distorter’s of God’s word. Where is your heart? Not for me to answer…
Read John 17:6-12.
Who do you think v.12 refers to?
Twisters of God’s word do so to their own destruction and peril.
God Bless!
Well, one advantage of living in the old days was, when you saw a mob approaching your hut with bundles of kindling and lit torches, you didn’t have to worry about the solvency of Social Security anymore.
The ancients weren’t dumb. They had actuaries — they just didn’t call them that — who could figure out how far the grain harvest would stretch, then advised the high priests how many people they had to get rid of.
@33 But it’s okay to twist secular statistics to smear state employees, right Cynical?
It was only a couple days ago that you bore false witness against a state liquor store clerk whom you claimed made over $100,000 last year. In fact, you counted TWO employees with the same name, neither of whom makes over $35,000 a year. I already know how God will punish you for this: She’s gonna make you live on a state liquor store clerk’s income for the rest of eternity. How d’ya like them apples??
Cynical is what I call a “Sunday Morning Christian.” They pretend to be Christians during that one hour, and the rest of the time they’re selfish jerks. They think because they sit in church for an hour, they get a “Get Out Of Hell Free” card for the rest of the week.
How do I interpret that passage? Like this: Goldy’s party and the politicians he told us to vote for are screwing up so badly that he’s trying to draw our attention away from that fact by talking about bible passages. This diversionary trick may fool others, but it doesn’t fool me.
So Dumb Bunny@36,
You are now claiming to have a 24 hour personal relationship to God built on early morning prayer, saying a real grace at every meal, having sympathy and empathy for peeps when you jump onto AOL and read how they run into problems or trouble, opening your Bible and asking God to reveal His plan for you through the Holy Spirit, then reading the Bible scriptures, looking at how they relate to you today, kiss your “wife” (or is that another Dumb Bunny) and tell her you love her, call the kids and tell them you love them (or are they more Dumb Bunnies), then say your good night prayers at night? You seem to know how Cynical meets the Creator of the Universe each Sunday?
So tell us Dumb Bunny since you love to judge anyone and everyone who disagrees with your Dumb Bunnyness… how do you “contact” the Creator of the Universe?
@36
You need to be a Saturday Night Sinner before you can be a Sunday Morning Christian. Saturday Night is when you fail at picking up the clerk in the liquor store and end up throwing up in the alley in back of the bar down on the corner.
@37
So what does fool you?
So Goldy, Puddy guesses all these other acts found in that chapter are agreeable with you
10 If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11 If a man lies with his father’s wife, he has uncovered his father’s nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 12 If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. 13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 14 If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. 15 If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. 16 If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. 17 If a man takes his sister, a daughter of his father or a daughter of his mother, and sees her nakedness, and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be cut off in the sight of the children of their people. He has uncovered his sister’s nakedness, and he shall bear his iniquity. 18 If a man lies with a woman during her menstrual period and uncovers her nakedness, he has made naked her fountain, and she has uncovered the fountain of her blood. Both of them shall be cut off from among their people. 19 You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother’s sister or of your father’s sister, for that is to make naked one’s relative; they shall bear their iniquity. 20 If a man lies with his uncle’s wife, he has uncovered his uncle’s nakedness; they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless. 21 If a man takes his brother’s wife, it is impurity. He has uncovered his brother’s nakedness; they shall be childless.
Seems the only “issue” you have is the one Puddy bolded.
More Christian bloodthirst. Thanks pud.
the left’s hatred of christianity continues….
The actual thing from the Hebrew (which was the original language) reads:
If a man lies with a male as one lies with a woman, the twho of them have done an abhorrent thing; they shall be put to death–their bloodguilt is upon them.
Which is just as bad. But if you agree with that, then you must agree with every other proscription in the Torah, which no religious person except a flaming fundamentalist does. The Torah was put down on paper about 300
BCE, by people who lived in that particular extremely bloodthirsty and fear-mongering society. It wasn’t written by God.
Has nothing to do with bloodthirst. It has to do with living under God’s terms. You can choose not to live under His terms. He gives everyone free choice. Most HA Libtardos choose not to live under His terms.
So rob, you agree or disagree with the other verses? Just checking…
Max,
Nuthin new under the sun, eh?
Ecclesiastes 1:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
In addition to pudpulling and goatfucking, Pudpuller proclaimed his fervent desire to be bathed in lamb’s blood.
Is this similar to what is known in biker culture as “getting your red wings”?
Discuss.
There were prohibitions in other cultures and some of them are still around. Reading “Rubicon” by Tom Holland, I learned that there was a tribe in the Naples area called the Samnians and they were rivals of Rome. One of the things they did which the Romans thought was scandalous was having a barber shave pubic hair in public. Holland doesn’t go into detail about, but I wonder why they were shaving pubic hair. Did they invent the Brazilian back in 300 BCE?
@43 Max, are we hating on Christianity? I seem to recall that the star of the New Testament advised a crowd of Law Enforcers *not* to follow the law, or rather advised them that only those who had not broken the law themselves to enforce the law on others, in that case involving a woman. So, I ask you Max, and Mr Cynical, and the rest of the Troll caucus; is Jesus Christ an anti-Christian?
As always Zotz is a moron. As Steve would say Projection… Psych 101. Nuthin new under the sun when it comes to progressive libtardos. So which of those verses you doing above Zotz?
Looks like Mark Centz has some recollection problems…
Wanna place this verse or verses you recall? And while you are at it Mark, give us your “interpretation”.
pud,
so, I have free choice not to live under your god’s terms, except that according to you, he’s going to melt my mind for choosing not to. Some choice.
As for all that other stuff you quoted, yeah, I disagree with it. How about you? Do you think killing people for adultery/homosexuality/beastiality/incest/etc. is really the appropriate way to deal with it?
And last, I’ll ask again the same quesiton you didn’t answer last week: how are your comments here a reflection of “Love thy neighbor”?
Puddy didn’t answer last week because the context of the question was way out in left field.
Love thy neighbor is a concept beyond any religion. You love thy neighbor in how you treat them. This includes giving them your money if they need it. This is lost on progressives like you because when it comes to money… progressives only want to spend other peeps money, not their own to show “loving their neighbor”.
pud,
WTF? Where does it limit “Love thy neighbor” to giving them money? I’m not asking you how you spend your money, I’m asking you how your comments here reflect “Love thy neighbor”. Ducking the question isn’t helping.
Rob,
God has other peeps in His universe who lovingly live under his rules. Visit Job in the Bible. So if you think living under God’s rule is difficult then you choose to live under Satan’s rule.
Good luck!
Where Did Puddy say this? Are you as moronic as other libtardos?
Gonna watch the hockey game. Will give you another chance.
US vs Canada for the gold in Hockey…fuck its gonna be a
great game!!
libtardos != Love thy neighbor. You’re gonna burn in hell, pud, for not following your god’s orders.
@37 “How do I interpret that passage? Like this: Goldy’s party and the politicians he told us to vote for are screwing up so badly that he’s trying to draw our attention away from that fact by talking about bible passages. This diversionary trick may fool others, but it doesn’t fool me.”
Oh, you’re a fool alright. The best answer I can give to this tripe is to quote an e-mail I sent to a friend recently:
“Our nation is being swept by an epidemic of idiocy that is affecting public policy. For example, the bank bailouts are highly unpopular, but they cost taxpayers nothing and prevented another Great Depression. Yet, we have stupid people angrily demonstrating in the streets because politicians failed to repeat the mistakes of the 1930s.
“I don’t expect this year’s elections to go well for the Democrats, and we could still experience a worse economic disaster if the ignorant elements succeed in forcing government policies in the wrong direction.
“Needless to say, if this happens, when things get worse the people who were wrong will blame the people who were right, and our politics will become even uglier.”
Troll, you’re part of the problem, not part of the solution. My comment above is aimed squarely at people like you.
let’s see, we don’t want to believe the bible prohibits homosexuality. but, obama reads the bible. so , why does he read a book that he doesnt believe? why does he go to church and listen to sermons he doesnt believe?
@38 “You are now claiming to have a 24 hour personal relationship to God built on early morning prayer, saying a real grace at every meal, having sympathy and empathy for peeps when you jump onto AOL and read how they run into problems or trouble, opening your Bible and asking God to reveal His plan for you through the Holy Spirit, then reading the Bible scriptures, looking at how they relate to you today, kiss your “wife” (or is that another Dumb Bunny) and tell her you love her, call the kids and tell them you love them (or are they more Dumb Bunnies), then say your good night prayers at night? You seem to know how Cynical meets the Creator of the Universe each Sunday?”
No, I didn’t claim any of that. You made all of this shit up.
“So tell us Dumb Bunny since you love to judge anyone and everyone who disagrees with your Dumb Bunnyness… how do you ‘contact’ the Creator of the Universe?”
I converse with the Great Mother Rabbit Spirit in dreams, and She tells me what’s going on. She also speaks in the wind, and in trickling mountain brooks, and in waves breaking on beaches. You just have to know how to listen to Her. We rabbits have been taught by millions of years of evolution how to do that. People who don’t believe in evolution have a much harder time hearing Her or understanding what She’s actually saying.
Just following your lead around here, as you make up shit all the time, like your comment on Cynical.
rob, you are a liberal retard! You claimed Puddy said something Puddy didn’t say above. You never responded after being caught.
Nuff SAID!
@43 The left likes Christian behavior. Figure out for yourself where that leaves you righties.
Where did Mark Centz go?
Puddy thought you were a unloving Dumb Bunny!
So, who is the one who determines which biblical passages are literal and which ones are metaphorical?
And why is religion allowed to evolve and change over time? Seems to me that religion should be practiced the same way it was 2000 years ago. God doesn’t change the rules at halftime.
@62 “Just following your lead around here, as you make up shit all the time, like your comment on Cynical.”
I didn’t start the argument about whether a state liquor store clerk makes $100,000/yr, he did, and when Cynical posts bullshit like that, I’m going to refute it.
Cynical got that from BIAW’s web site. He accepted their data without doing any fact-checking at the original source.
Of course, that assertion doesn’t make sense on its face, and a figure like that should alert any reasonable person that something’s wrong with BIAW’s interpretation of the data.
But Cynical is not a reasonable, or even truthful, person; he’s only interested in hawking the BIAW’s anti-public worker propaganda. And because of that, I caught him and BIAW in a blatant lie.
Puddy, I posted my explanation and the link to the original data source. It’s absolutely clear what happened. BIAW’s data compiler combined the income data for two employees with identical names.
This is clear by using BIAW’s own software. OFM’s list of Liquor Control Board employees lists two employees named Thomas D. Taylor. One is a liquor store clerk earning $13.50/hr, the other is a warehouse operator 2 earning about $2800/mo. When you use BIAW’s software to pull up a list of all the liquor store clerks, you get one Thomas D. Taylor. When you use their software to pull up a list of all the warehouse operators, no one named Thomas D. Taylor appears on their list. It’s very clear what happened, BIAW’s compiler combined the two employees into one.
I shouldn’t have to explain this again, puddy, partly because I’ve already spelled it out in previous posts, and partly because you should have fact-checked it yourself — and figured it out — before popping off your mouth. You’re wrong, and your carelessness and obstinacy is now on display for the whole world to see.
Cynical lied, puddy. There is no liquor store clerk making $100,000/yr. In making this claim, he was dishonest, and in backing up his claim, you are dishonest. You’re both liars. But that’s not all. What kind of jerks pick on Liquor Board workers making less than $35,000 a year on a public blog in order to peddle a political agenda?
@41
20 If a man lies with his uncle’s wife, he has uncovered his uncle’s nakedness; they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless
Obviously INSISTS on abortion in the caseof incest
Who brought up BIAW in the Bible study thread?
THE DUMB BUNNY.
Why?
Cause his previous arguments were weak.
Goldy does.
Puddy curious why Goldy David SeattleJew had nothing to say about this… Fast of Esther… Don’t worry atheists or agnostics you have no clue about Esther and why she fasted.
Yet they are mysteriously quiet about girls of their own faith and the WIAA.
Puddy doesn’t miss much!
Mark Centz went to live a little life offline, Puddy. You’ve been known to do that yourself.
Here you go, from the gospel of John
I haven’t interpreted that episode and won’t, I’m neither a Christian nor a theologian. That’s what I asked the caucus of Trolls for. You’ll do. How ought this passage be interpreted?
And to correct my prior incorrect summation of the word- he did not say that “only those who had not broken the law themselves to enforce the law on others”, but rather those that had broken the law should wait their turn. Sorry, I make many mistakes.
The WIAA story here is about a boys team, Puddy (and it is sad about your friend). If you don’t miss much, it would seem you missed that. Too bad the WIAA couldn’t find a way to accommodate the observance, but sometimes the strict interpretation of rules and regulations leads to injustices. Good judges should find ways to just solutions, but judges are not always up to the task.
What’s up with the permalink? Dammit Goldie!
wow that was a great hockey game! big congrats to the Canadians…
@33
Riddle me this–
If your god is real and there has order…how did the order come about?
Inventing some god to explain this is not an answer, but a fable.
Hmmm…?
A search on boys shows no boys in the story…
That’s okay Mark, you have no “Centz” anyway…
Mark with no Centz,
The issue is one with sin throwing a stone to condemn another. Plain and simple.
The plain and simple is lost on Mark!
Oh, it is a girls team, right yoiu are about the small point Puddy. I do indeed make many mistakes. I suppose I shouldn’t have been in such a hurry to get back to cheer on the guys in blue. When in doubt, cheer for Ryan.
So, sinners ought not throw stones at one another in condemnation. So, should one conclude the Caucus of Trolls have never eaten shellfish or worn clothes that include cotton/synthetic mixes, or had bacon for breakfast (or a nice BLT, mmmm), or is the Caucus straying from this lesson of JC? That last link also mentions that a man sleeping with a married woman invokes the death penalty for them both, does the Caucus advocate this law for a proper Christian nation?
And my original question remains unanswered. JC invoked a new way of applying an old rule which prevented the rule from being applied at all. Does this make him unChristian? Perhaps Max, or Brainiac, or whichever sockpuppet you’re wearing today could answer that one.
One observation I’ll throw in for discussion on the Bible lesson thread- the star of the Bible could take lessons from the Democrats about how to get his message out, and that’s not meant as a compliment. First of all, by using one spokesman at a time, he decides to address one small band of humanity? Then when his son is sending out revisions to the revealed word, no one is keeping track in real time? And then all this confusion about who speaks for him now. Are there no better means of communications available to an almighty being? It’s a shame that the central idea isn’t coming though loud and clear.
Max is not puddy…puddy is not max.
fail.
@70 Puddy’s changing the subject. Looks like I win.
@70 (continued) Oh, and one more thing … you brought up the subject of my debunking of Cynical’s bullshit about the liquor store clerk in this thread.
@77 Does putz now imagine himself as sinless? What’s his next act, walking on water? Turning piss into Moet Chandon?
No Puddy mentioned in this query, Max@80. You own the failure on that one. Question remains unanswered, cat got your tongue? Beyond your ability? C’mon, you can do it, you’ll only fail if you try.
In the name of God…..we must Kill. Kill, I say, in the name of God. Almighty God, says Kill!
Yes Mark… Here are your “pointed” words…
Yep you MISSED BIG!
Since Leviticus is about Jewish law and Jewish traditions why ask the big Jews on the board… David SeattleJew Goldy etc. etc. etc. regarding stonings etc.
Regarding Jesus and Mary’s accusers, Jesus was teaching a lesson. Too bad you don’t comprehend the lesson Mark.
BTW, where in the Bible does it say you go directly to heaven when you die?
Dumb Bunny, Your need to bring BIAW into the conversation proves you lost AGAIN!
No Dumb Bunny, you brought BIAW to this thread. Puddy identified your BULLSHIT!
@83…sorry, you fail again…
deflection double fail.
Hey all you globull worming freaks out there, your holy grail movie is on right now! The Day After Tomorrow is on FX channel – my god, you dupes actually bought this movie as fact, hook line and sinker…HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAH
God says “Obama’s Death Panels are not enough. We must Kill all the Abominators! Kill, I say, Kill! Take their Blood! Good Christians, must Kill! Let’s not just leave it up to the Radical Muslims, we Christians can do it!”
hhmmm…
Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Danny Williams decides to have operation in the US rather than in Canada
does that tell you anything about Canadian soclialized health care? hmm….
@90…slow evening bear hunting?
Max, the other day you were so proudly professing your ability to produce babies the old fashioned way. I never let you in on a secret, but thought I would tonight. Like you and the many other millions and trillions of People out there I too produced one the old fashion way. Not sure what your point was.
Christians must kill. Kill, I say, Kill – The Almighty God.
well goody for you…go try out for the Mariners, they are always looking for good switch hitters…
Dahmer christian?
Gacy christian?
Hmmmmmmmmm…
Puddy, no one from the Atheist side could answer my questions.
Riddle me this–
If the world is real and there is order…how did the order come about?
Isn’t it possible that God exists…whether you believe it or not?
Look, the Bible discusses the battle against the Bible. It discusses the Despiser’s, Disregarders, Dissectors and Distorter’s of God’s word. Where is your heart? Not for me to answer…
Read John 17:6-12.
Who do you think v.12 refers to?
Twisters of God’s word do so to their own destruction and peril.
Despising, Distorting, Dissecting & Disregarding God’s word is easy to do.
Explaining orderly Creation without a Creator with a well reasoned argument is not so easy.
Nor is the likelihood that even though a person denies that God exists, doesn’t mean that He doesn’t.
John 17:6-12 (Today’s New International Version)
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
I asked who Jesus was referring to in V.12
No answer??
Why it’s Judas, of course!
God GAVE us Free Will…to make mistakes, deny His Word, Distort His Word, Despise His Word.
Trying to justify twisting God’s word by referring to Human Beings who will always fall short of God’s Mark is infantile.
We all need Christ because we are not perfect.
His life, death & resurrection was the final piece of God’s perfect plan.
So use that Free Will to do all of the above.
Where does it get you??
Where does Atheism get you??
Do so to your own destruction and peril.
What do you think rhp?
Max, you’re certainly not Puddy, Puddy actually has something on the ball. Which, ball, that’s an open question. But his edge is sharp enough to cut. You, on the other hand, couldn’t spread butter. I think that under that sockpuppet exterior, is none other than Goldie himself, looking to drive up traffic from us socialist readers. No one could be as dumb or as thick as you are, it has to be a construct. OTOH, I don’t know that Goldie is smart enough to write as dumb as you are. So I’ll call you Sifl from now on.
Puddy, my question wasn’t about stonings. Since you avoid the question, it’s difficult to not to conclude you and the rest of the Caucus of Trolls believe Christ was not a Christian, and therefore you don’t believe in what he had to say.
and
the Old Testament is something you’ll never invoke again as an authority on any question. We’ll keep this in mind for future reference.
uh oh….hat trick fail.
hint to marky-mark…look up the definition of a sock puppet before using the term…..duh.
@99….as for the rest of your gibberish…eh, whatever.
Time slime: Peter Beinart laments incivility and partisan gridlock. He asserts that Republicans are cynically using the filibuster, previously rare, to cripple long-term big-government fixes for broken big government.
The modern filibuster is a weapon deployed by Democrat leader Robert Byrd in 1987 to stop Republican Ronald Reagan. In 2007 and 2008 the filibuster was used more relentlessly by Democrats against George Bush than it has been used against Democrat Barack Obama.
At least since 1987 it has been clear that loud lamentations about gridlock, incivility, and the loss of bipartisanship have a deeper meaning. The cries, sighs, and laments mean that somewhere, somehow, someone is getting in the way of Democrats getting their way.
Here’s more from David Lightman:
@96 – nope just a good ole dumb Christian, like most.
Where’s Pope Richard Pope when we need him? Went to the excellent resource thoughtfully provided at last week’s Bible Study to get the down low lowdown about our Centz affliction. Nada. But more David Goldsteins than you can shake a psalter at.
Question: Which of the many little Davids at various superior courts is our little David? What Would Richard Pope Do?
Discuss.
@103….yet most are probably much much happier than you are…not suffering from self loathing and the like.
Mr Cynical, I’m not an athiest, but an agonistic. However,
speaking for myself only,
A) Open question, insufficient data. Possibly beyond our ken. That doesn’t mean we can create correct answers out of nothing.
B) Yes. Proving a negative is hard work, at least for us agnostics.
We’ll all find out when we die, or not. Somehow the idea of a perfect god that gives us the choice to believe the word of men as imperfect as ourselves to the interpretation of words and symbols as clear as mud so as to submit to their imperfect and often abusive authority here on earth- doesn’t seem like an elegant solution a perfect being would create. Certainly doesn’t approach the the beauty and elegance of the world around us. Call me unconvinced.
@95 – just like this comment and all of your comments, they are pointless.
GBS! Phone home!
Your vaunted “wall of separation” was simply a smokescreen for nativist know-nothing anti-Catholic bigotry. Confess the truth with your mouth, my son, so that your sins may be cleansed in the blood of the Lamb.
59. Car GBS, Where R U? spews:
GBS was patronizing and parental last week. He scolded us: The First Amendment is blindingly obvious. Jefferson’s 1802 letter to Danbury is a blindingly obvious restatement of the obvious First Amendment. It’s all so obvious that Hugo Black in 1947 could only conclude that the First Amendment, which does not mention a wall of separation between church and state, can only be understood as building a wall of separation between church and state.
Here, in case GBS was so blinded by the obvious that he didn’t see it coming, is my reply:
Thanks for information about Everson, although your Heavy SIGHHHHHS were too heavy to lift.
Wiki shows that Rehnquist shared my concerns about the one-and-one-half decade divide between Jefferson’s 1802 letter to Danbury and the drafting of the Bill of Rights, in which Jefferson didn’t participate.
Some, including former Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, have criticized Everson for its reliance on quotations and views from Thomas Jefferson, who had little to do with the framing of the U.S. Constitution or its Bill of Rights … It has been argued that [KKK Hugo] Black interpreted the Establishment Clause to require a “separation of church and state” in order to limit public funds to parochial schools.[2] Supporters of this theory allege that the phrase itself has an anti-Catholic history,[3] and that legal reasoning in Everson was dubious.[4] Indeed, “[s]ome scholars argue that, even if the Everson court’s use of the ‘wall of separation’ metaphor does reflect Jefferson’s views, those views did not at all represent those of the individuals actually responsible for drafting and ratifying the First Amendment.”[5][6][7]
Here are notes 2-7:
#2 PHILIP HAMBURGER, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE (Harvard University Press 2002).
#3 Hamburger, id.
#4 HARVARD LAW SCHOOL FORUM, PUBLIC AID TO PAROCHIAL EDUCATION 10-11 (1951); GERALD T. DUNNE, HUGO BLACK AND THE JUDICIAL REVOLUTION 266 (Simon & Schuster 1977).
#5 Patrick M. Garry, The Myth of Separation: America’s Historical Experience with Church and State, 33 Hofstra L. Rev. 475, 498 (2004) [1]
#6 Philip Hamburger, Separation of Church and State 109, 162 (2002) (contending that at the time Jefferson expressed such views, they were not “widely published or even noticed”).
#7 Michael A. Paulsen, Religion, Equality, and the Constitution: An Equal Protection Approach to Establishment Clause Adjudication, 61 Notre Dame L. Rev. 311, 317 (1986) (“The original intention behind the establishment clause…seems fairly clearly to have been to forbid establishment of a national religion and to prevent federal interference with a state’s choice of whether or not to have an official state religion.”).
I assume from the patronizing and rather parental tone of your discussion that you are familiar with the cited sources, those that support your opinions and those that don’t. Also note that Black’s own vehement opinions are subjected to the test of original intent: Was he, perhaps, working from the anti-Catholic bigotry of his years in the Klan?
As Darryl often does, let’s review: Your arguments, despite being shrill or strident, are strong. The Tripoli Treaty is solid. (Years ago I read Stanley Elkins’ Age of Federalism about the 1789-1801 period, but I spaced the 1796-1797 Treaty. You took me by surprise. You used the Treaty to entrap a couple of my brothers here. Apparently they were also taken by surprise.)
But your previous condition of certitude about Jefferson’s 1802 letter doesn’t carry the weight you pile on it. A little bit of Wiki shows that school’s not out on this. Let’s spend some time with the pro-and-con sources, cited above, and continue our conversation.
Everson, by the way, was an incorporation case. Something to keep in mind while doing review — assuming again that you’re totally familiar with cited sources and others — or research.
02/25/2010 at 1:01 pm
60. Where in the World is GBS? spews:
So I went to Hamburger’s Separation of Church and State, cited above. 492 pages by a law prof from Obama’s U of Chicago. 492 pages, and I’m sure GBS has them covered, starting with the intro:
* Frisky WA justice William O. Douglas, after Everson, said that the First Amendment did “not say that in every and all respects there shall be a separation of Chruch and State.” (p.7)
* Chief Justice Burger, long after Everson, said “The line of separation, far from being a ‘wall,’ is a blurred, indistinct and variable barrier depending on all the circumstances of a particular relationship.” (p.7)
* Justice Rehnquist wrote that the separation doctrine is an unsupportable standard that has “proved all but useless as a guide to sound constitutional adjudication.”
* “(I)t is misleading to understand either eighteenth-century religious liberty or the First Amendment in terms of separation of church and state, whether the separation be that of (Roger) Williams of that of Jefferson.” (p.9)
* “According to the myth, the idea of separation of church and state was widely accepted by the time of the nation’s establishment. …” (p.9)
* “(T)he idea of separation did not become popular until the mid-nineteenth century, when opponents of Catholicism — many of them nativists — depicted it as a principle of government evident in most American constitutions, even if it was not guaranteed by those documents.” (p. 10) (Rented Gangs of New York lately?)
* “(A)nti-jChristian ’secularists,’ who worried that separation had not been fully assured by any American constitution, and who therefore demanded a federal constitutional amendment.” (p. 10)
* “(M)odern suppositions about the wisdom and influence of Jefferson’s words regarding separation have developed largely as part of a twentieth-century myth — an account that has become popular precisely because it has seemed to provide constitutional authority for separation.” (p. 11)
(This is the revised standard version. The original King James referred to the Frist Amendment. Just checkin’ to see if GBS was paying attention. Of course he wasn’t. Or couldn’t.)
Lots more Hamburger where this came from, GBS. Want it?
“Mark Centz” hangs with Devilstower at Kos.
Question: Why would someone, anyone, defile the greatest great state of the Real America by demeaning its landmark monument, Devil’s Tower, at a useless leftist blog?
Resolved: Devilstower at Daily Kos is a tool of the devil. Devil’s Tower in Wyoming is God’s own volcanic plug.
Discuss.
… K-I-S-S-I-N-G.
Got to be the oddest odd couple ever. A match made only at HA because it would be impossible in heaven.
Sifl, you do me too great an honor. Devilstower is a very bright fellow, and hanging with him would be a gas. Doubt I’ll be as lucky as that.
I was going to ask whether you were Close Encounters the original release, or the Special Edition. Obviously you’re special. Sfl, what kind of a troll hangs out at a useless leftist blog? A special kind of troll. Isn’t it bedtime for special trolls yet?
Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. Simple words for not so simple morons.
@33;
Hopefully where most everyone else’s is – on the left side of chest.
Did Mr. C, like, lie about boys on a girls’ team? And if he did, did he fail to manfully admit the lie? Did he instead subside into that last refuge of swine-molesting scoundrals, the paltry and passive mistakes were made?
Discuss.
Used to hang out at the excellent soundpolitics.com. Too many smart people over there. Feel much more at home over here with you.
And isn’t it bedtime for you, Bonzo?
@107…kinda like when you claimed that all heterosexuals are killers
in fact, when one does some studying, a stunningly large number of serial killers are homosexual…why is that?
Show your statistical facts, you are wrong. Show proof.
@117 …
653,000 google sites for Laramie’s Matthew Shepard.
Only 30,400 for Jesse Dirkhising, who was murdered at about the same time.
Sifl, as you can clearly see in #78, I admitted to my error. Learn from my example. I didn’t use the the “mistakes were made”, although it was good enough for Nixon’s mouthpiece and St. Ronnie his own personal self. Do your friends at soundpolitics know you have called out St,Ronnie as a “swine-molesting scoundral”. They might be cross with you if they ever learn to read.
Waiting for a snappy comeback from Centz, but …
Alas, he’s either gone to bed (past his bedtime), gone to market for a fat pig (see comment about swine, above), or gone to vespers with my little twisted sister, YLB.
St. Ronnie has perpetual absolution.
Not to be confused with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.
Nor with the perpetual Cornhusker Kickback … your Democrat Dollars at work for you.
And there’s that weasel word error. Even worse than mistakes were made.
Sifl, your mother tells me she’s putting you to bed so we can enjoy ourselves. Goodnight!
Because GBS is SOL & MIA, Mark, why don’t you do something useful for a change and try to defend the indefensible, GBS’s wild distortions about the inviolable wall of separation between c & s?
Surely an agnostic Kostard like you is steeped in Everson and Danbury. Your fundy atheist bro GBS is flailing and failing. Help him before it’s too late. ‘Twould be the Christian thing to do.
Cut the cant, old man. I have one father, who art not in heaven, and that is my Love Daddy.
Nobody but Daddy Love puts me to bed. Nobody.
So back off before I call Animal Control.
@118…would you like a list? Homosexual serial killers in the US, and just over the last few decades….
John Wayne Gacy
Dean Corll
David Brooks
Elmer Wayne Henley
Juan Corona
Ronald Dominique
William Bonin
Patrick Kearney
Jeffrey Dahmer
Charles Ray Hatcher
Randy Steven Kraft
wow, that sure is a lot….
And you call me a weasel, Sifl.
Sorry about #125, Sifl, your mother is distracting me. I’m done for the night. I’ll engage the rest of the Caucus another time.
just to continue – there have been approx 36 “serial killers” since 1950 in the US(and this includes campus shooters like Columbine – not what I would consider a serial killer)
11 have been homosexual. Wow, gman, thats over 30%….I dont think gays make up 30% of the population….why are you guys so damn violent?
Absolutely and utterly the most frightening thing posted on HA since the photograph of goldy spinning a pizza.
Sort of makes me want to drain the gene pool, disinfect it, and start over.
And want to bet that Gman eats shrimp and mixes fibers?
uh oh, more damning evidence gman..what say you?
ww.adherents.com/misc/hsk.html
Another irritant bites the dust and dribbles away.
Score another gold for the Caucusoids.
but gman, you said only(and ALL) heterosexuals were killers(and I would presume serial killers)……
have you been believing your own propaganda, IE goebbels rabbit?
@127. Case closed.
LMFAO @ “trillions of people”…fucking idiot
did you get that from algore and his “the earths core is several million degrees”….HAHAHAHAHHA
dumb as a box of rocks…yet another useful tool of the leftists…
scoundral = scoundrel
you mean our own personal warren buffet? ahahahhaahha….the rabbit is a fake.
There they go, Mark and Gman slinking abjectly into the sunset, several hours after sunset. As usual, they’re in the dark.
The air just pffffffts out of the left’s hotair balloon.
I dont expect a response from gman…after all, it is bear season on capital hill – I am sure he out hunting..
34 The democrats want to bring that back in style with their healthcare ideas.
Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Mark Centz,
You can justify it in the end.
There won’t be any trumpets blowing
Come the judgement day,
On the bloody morning after….
One tin soldier rides away.
@77 “The issue is one with sin throwing a stone to condemn another. Plain and simple.”
Fuck you, I don’t play by your rules, I make the rules around here! I’m a sinner, and I’m gonna throw rocks at you anyway, putz, because you’ve got it coming! Don’t like it? Lick my cute cottontail! For a good time call 1-900-SUCK-ROG, all proceeds go to the Help Roger Rabbit Live Like A Republican Fund.
on a side note: Damn, that was a great winter olympics this year. Very entertaining.
Does a man go to Hell for being in bed with BIAW?
It appears to me all these trolls are in bed together.
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Max,
93% of all serial killers are men.
The USA has 76% of the world’s serial killers.
86% of serial killers are heterosexual.
You are one dumb fuck.
Discuss.
@136 Whoever thinks algore said the earth’s core is “millions of degrees” is too stupid to distinguish between “earth” and “sun” so that’s gotta be a wingnut. Obviously, the earth’s core must be hot enough to liquify rock, or the continents could’t move, but computer modeling gives an estimated temperature of “thousands” not “millions” of degrees. That’s hot enough for God’s purposes.
http://www.hellhappens.com/hel.....-chick.gif
In bed? Together? We’re lifting a pint in celebration of our Caucusoid gold medal.
Back to Pope Richard Lamar Pope, who used to hang at HA where he’d dumpster dive in databases to get dirt on our beloved trolls.
Haven’t seen or heard Mr. Pope lately. Perhaps it’s because he’s very busy being a defendant.
… call 1-800-DISAMBIGUATE-ROGER-RABBIT.
@147…your claims are not supported by wiki…
Mark Centz cracks Puddy up…
The verse Goldy put up is for you to ask Goldy about. We can see you can’t deal.
Regarding stonings, the peeps were so quick judge the woman without their own situation Mark. Jesus identified that to them. They left.
@148…
here is a direct quote you fucktard..
GORE: It definitely is, and it’s a relatively new one. People think about geothermal energy – when they think about it at all – in terms of the hot water bubbling up in some places, but two kilometers or so down in most places there are these incredibly hot rocks, ’cause the interior of the earth is extremely hot, several million degrees, and the crust of the earth is hot …”
like a good little Goebbels, our very own Goebbels/Himmler Rabbit once again attempts to lie and distort the facts…only to get OWNED.
So you are really Goldy after all Dumb Bunny!
@151: Funny that. Neither is your claim that 30% of serial killers are homosexual.
@156…yes, it does.
I quantified by counting US serial killers starting after about 1950.
wiki has a list…its easy to count. you should try it some time.
Or maybe the Dumb Bunny is a delusional fool.
Or maybe the Dumb Bunny is an oxygen starved nut.
More importantly, the vast majority of serial killers are WHITE men. As written in the Apocrypha:
“If a light skinned man walketh upon the land, he should be stoned, lest he bring pestilence and destruction upon the chosen”
I admit the translation from the original discovered manuscript is a little ambiguous, but you get the drift.
Leviticus 20:13 (King James Version, theonly perfect translation of the Bible in English)
13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Yes, Homosexuality is a sin. Worse the act is an abomination to God.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Yes, the Commonwealth/Kingdom of Israel was ordered to put those caught in the act to death. We don’t live in Israel. It is still discusting in God’s eyes. However there is hope in the blood scarifice of Jesus the Son of God. Jesus can overcome this sin. Give in to the truth. Jesus is the only way to Heaven. God loves you. It is Satan who hates you.
@157: The wiki list says “notable” serial killers, not ALL serial killers. Are you really that stupid?
To ask that question is to answer it.
This is one of the reasons I don’t go to a fundamentalist christian church. Why would I want to belong to a organization that wants me put to death?
@1, Mr. Cynical spews:
“Spiritual Death”
Uhhh, you seem to be interpreting the bible to fit your morals. It says in black and white, “put the death”. How dare you interpret God’s words. How do you justify the interpretation?
@162..wrong list….keep trying…
Mark Centz @ 106
Thanks for giving it a shot Mark-
These are deep questions….
Think abot this..
When a person read’s the Bible…is the goal KNOWLEDGE? or should it be WISDOM?
We never acquire perfect KNOWLEDGE of everything thru Scripture or Science..however, we do acquire WISDOM which allows us to get thru this life on Earth.
What’s next?
That’s where FAITH and GRACE come in Mark.
I believe FAITH is a watershed…a point so finite that you cannot stand on it.
Either you confess your FAITH…or you don’t.
There is no maybe.
I went thru an Agnostic Phase is my life.
The more I studied God’s Word, the more I realized I had to make a choice.
No choice was comfortable…but I came to grips with the fact that it really meant I had no Faith.
Keep striving and climbing Mark. Challenge yourself. Don’t settle for MAYBE which in God’s eyes means NO.
163. Blue John spews:
Blue John–
CONGRATS on finally coming out of the kloset.
It must be very liberating for you.
As an Atheist, you obviously do not believe in Spiritual Death and are too weak in the flesh to acknowledge your sins. Too bad. Seems like it is convenient for you to interpret eveything in the Bible literally. Anything to take you away from your own decisions.
Hey, you can hide & reason with us.
God loves YOU Blue John.
Repent & do your best to live a Godly, joyful life.
Mr Cynical
For your own sake, please remember My commandment …
Much that is in Leviticus was not given to Moses. People people not very different from you, took it upon themselves, to speak in My name.
When you speak in My name, the fear of God should be in you. I can speak for Myself.
SeattleJew aka God @168–
Thanks for the warning!
However, as a devout, self confessed Atheist SJ, why are you even concerned?
You fit into that Despising/Distorting/Disregarding Group Seattle Jew.
Isn’t the real and one true God great…that he gave you the free will to despise Him!!
Cyn 33
It’s kind of hard to say that the world is real without defining what “real” is. But the world certainly is what is is.
As for whether “there is order,” it appears as though both order and chaos exist the possibly multiverse. Entropy (one of those pesky physical laws), for example, breaks down order irrevocably and unstoppably. So if by “there is order” you mean “there is all order and no chaos,” you’d just be wrong.
But as to how what order there is or appears to be came about, it’s kind of a long explanation. A lot of it has to do with what happened in the first few billionths of a second after the Big Bang–things like the temperature distribution and such. Some things just fall into place out of the physical laws and physical constants, thus giving an an appearance of order.
Isn’t it possible that God as you conceive It to be does not exist…whether you believe it or not?
Cynincal, I think you’d better put RennDawg @161 straight about the whole “spiritual death” thing. He is straying from the script.
Daddy Love spews–
Isn’t it possible that God exists…whether you believe it or not?
Answer–
No. Between the Scriptures and the fact that Creation requires a Creator…that’s not possible.
Repent & do your best to live a Godly, joyful life.
I’ve been out of the closet for 25 years. I’m already living a godly, joyful life, except for the minor detail that I’m sleeping with a man.
Do you mean I have to abandon my partner of 15 years? What about our son we adopted? How is that family values?
By the way, I’m not an atheist or a fundamentalist. I’m a new testament christian. God is love, not exclusion.
===========
Looking at history, I see the the Bible is always interpreted by the times.
A couple of centuries ago, a whole bunch of people felt the bible gave them the right to own black people. Now, not so much.
Why were they wrong back then and didn’t know it?
Why you are wrong now and don’t know it?
Why do the heathen rage?
One of you Christ-killing bigots wants Kemper Freeman to pay and burn in hell for the sins of his fathers, which have something to do with FDR’s “interrment” of Issei and Nisei during The War. Wouldn’t it make more sense for FDR’s people to pay and burn unto the second or third generation, starting with FDR’s Seattle spawn who ran the P-I before the P-I ran into the ground?
174. Blue John spews:
Where do you worship?
Hey, we all make choices on how we live our lives. If we were perfect, we wouldn’t need Christ as the Lord of our Lives…would we.
Good luck on your Journey BJ.
If you pray, worship and seek God…things will work out.
If you choose to intentionally distort or despise…probably not likely.
BJ–
Do you believe God will judge you?
Do you believe in Heaven?
Do you believe you are a “chosen one”?
Do you believe the ONLY WAY to the Father is thru Christ his son??
Hamburger Helper:
I want all the truth you can dish out. I’m firm in my belief that one of the founding principles of the USA is that the government is to remain neutral in religious matters.
This was affirmed by the:
Declaration of Independence. No mention to Christianity.
Preamble to the Constitution: “We The People. . .Do ordain the Constitution of the USA.” No other authority cited.
Constitution: with it’s to prohibitions involving government and religion.
Presidents: George Washington, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson all declaring this nation is not formed on religious principles.
Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, all the signers to the Constitution believing that religion has no place in the LEGITIMATE POWERS of government.
Treaties unanimously passed by the senate declaring we are “IN NO SENSE” formed on the Christian religion.
Case law handed down by the SCOTUS confirming such.
Now, what exactly do you have on your side of the equation?
What specific document can you point to that states America was founded on Christianity?
@175,
Taking the same attitude, where are Puddy’s reparations for my ancestors being slaves? All these progressives are going to hell for that one!
Interesting that Leviticus doesn’t prohibit two women to “lie together”, isn’t it? Maybe even the ancient Israelites really, really liked lesbians?
The reason for prohibiting two men from having sex seems obvious to me — it’s just like the biblical admonition that says you’re obligated to have sex with and impregnate your sister in law if she is childless after your brother (her husband) has died.
Sex was about procreation then — specifically to produce sons who could inherit land and flocks. Two men having sex meant no boy baby.
Mr. C,
Come on! Explain why presupposing a god that simply exists makes more sense that presupposing a universe that does. Until you do that your explanation is at best no better than the atheist one, and really worse since it requires even more assumptions. A universe, by definition, is less complex than a being that can create one, so atheism requires a more simple set of preconditions.
God is merely “a being”??
Where did you come up with that?
Did I stutter? It’s an assertion I did not make. Perhaps lostinaseaorblue did, and perhaps you’re profiling us again: To you we all look alike.
Lostatsea was nuanced. Maybe that’s why you willfully distort what he was saying and then project (Psych 101) your distortion onto me.
I’ll grant that quotes I attributed to GW and JA were possible products of a quote machine. But you need to deal with the aftermath of Jefferson’s 1802 letter on which you hang more weight than it can hold.
@182 does it matter what god is? I still have yet to see anyone establish a god is a more probable place to start than a universe.
I brought forward as evidence to support my position; the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, the Constitution itself, the articulated positions of the first three sitting presidents of the USA, treaties, senate votes, historical documents cited by SCOTUS in deciding case law, Thomas Paine’s writings, Ben Franklin, all the signers to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, the fact the first Continental Congress thought so little of Christmas that they worked on Christmas Day, that Christmas wasn’t even declared a federal holiday until 70 years passed the founding of our nation when the European Christians started migrating to America bringing with them their political traditions that our Founding Fathers sought to escape, and case law from every level of the court system in the land. All items supporting my position.
Thomas Jefferson’s letter of 1802 was just one source I cited. ONE.
And, the reason that letter carries weight, even in the Highest Court in the Land, is because it explains the thinking of the men who created the Constituion and what the 1st Amendment’s prohibition on religion meant.
Digest that with some Pepto Bismol.