by Carl, 03/22/2011, 7:02 AM

Now that we’re in the middle (or, probably at the beginning) of our third war, can we maybe do the things we’re supposed to do during a war? Start with a tax increase. After all, those cruise missiles and fighter jets aren’t free. If this war is worth it, (and I have my doubts) then it’s worth paying for.

Of course the people risking their lives, not to mention their health and their relations back home, are the men and women in the air and at sea, and possibly in the future on the ground. We need to make sure that when they come home, the VA is in as tip top shape as possible, and that when people come back, they have the physical health, mental health, and family support they’ve earned. We need to make sure they have jobs to come back to. Especially since so many of the people deployed are in the National Guard and Reserves, it means we need to do everything we can to make sure they can return to the lives they’ve left, sometimes two and three times. It means their jobs have to still be there for them government agencies like ESGR need support and private businesses need to be willing to hire and to go above the bare minimum required by law in retaining and supporting their service member employees.

But those of us who don’t ever suit up ought to sacrifice in other ways. We need a renewed push away from oil in the short term because that’s where Gadhafi gets his money and in the longer term because we’ve been in a hot war in the Middle East for a decade, and it doesn’t show signs of stopping. We ought to consider rationing, to force us to use less oil.

Finally, it’s not the time for business to make profit. They can return to that when our 3 wars are over. Now is not the time, as FDR said for, “that small group of selfish men who would clip the wings of the American eagle in order to feather their own nests.” We need to tell all military contractors (including Boeing) that they’ll be delivering quality products, and doing it at cost. If they don’t like it, we’ll have to nationalize the factories at least until our wars are over. Same with the extraction industries. We really ought to nationalize oil drilling. At least enough that the operations in our 3 wars aren’t dependent on corporations. If the oil companies don’t like it, well there are wars on.

117 Responses to “Shared Sacrifice”

1. Politically Incorrect spews:

Three wars at once – what a mess! Don’t forget the longest-running war, the War on Drugs. It’s has also been the biggest failure.

So, let’s end all four of our wars.

2. Blue John spews:

It will never pass, but did you see that Kucinich tried to reinstate the mandatory draft? Let’s have everyone have a kid at stake. Not just those poor and middle class families with no options.

3. Carl spews:

@2,

I considered writing about a draft, but I don’t know enough about what it would do for military readiness to write intelligently about it. Perhaps I’ll study up.

4. Evergreen Libertarian spews:

Well first off, Get Out! The failure of the Obama administration to get a declaration of war is every reason to stop this insanity right now.

5. ld spews:

If Obama had had one ounce of leadership, he would have resisted getting into a prolonged mess with a guy who is damn well know for indurance, who sits on megatons of gold and will fight till his last breath.

This is Hillary’s war, she pushed it, he caved. For all you Bush Cheney haters, you got your own hawks in power now, and they are doing the very same things you have been pissing mad about for the last 10 years.

How does it feel? Come on come clean

How does it feel?

6. rhp6033 spews:

I’m remembering Trumans Senate hearings on wartime profiteering during WWII (before he became Vice-President in Jan. 1945). He insisted that if “our boys” are being killed overseas, that military contractors should receive only minimal profits.

After all, the government was giving them guaranteed contracts, paying up front for building plants and tooling which the companies got to keep after the contracts ended, etc. Since the companies were not taking any risk, they weren’t entitled to anything more than a nominal profit.

7. klake spews:

Carl that was one of your best rants written so far and I force to agree with most of the tongue and cheek. There War’s what gives folks we built a military to fight two but three! Don’t worry the folks in the military have been in worst shape like after the abandonment of Viet Nam by Congress. Oh! What happen with the transparent White House, because Congress wants to impeach the Messiah after last week end drum roll? Well life isn’t what it appears in the New York Times or on HA! Now the Kool-Aid does taste great when you add that white stuff!

8. YLB spews:

who sits on megatons of gold and will fight till his last breath.

zzzzZZZZZzzzz. They said the same thing about Milosevic.

Ever hear of frozen assets (l)dummy?

Yeah, the U.S., UK and France have interests in the region and they chose to get involved to influence the outcome. Two percent of the world’s oil production doesn’t sound like much but the world economy needs every last freaking drop until a viable substitute is implemented.

Gaddafi like Mubarak and that other bastard in Tunisia had long worn out their respective welcomes and it’s about time they joined the Papa Doc Duvalier’s of the world.

In the case of Saddam he was bottled up in Iraq to the point where Kurdistan had almost full autonomy and there was no need to blow a trillion dollars because he wore a green military uniform and fired guns in the air. WMD was a fantasy and anyone who read the UNSCOM reports like the McClatchy papers did would have known that. Wouldn’t it have been cheaper to let his people “go Egypt” on him?

Well right wingers you wanted to “finish the job” that Dick Cheney in his saner days judged would be a “quagmire”. Now the trillion dollar plus bill has come due. And what a surprise – you’re still whining.

9. LD spews:

And Why would Obama spend Billions more then the Trillions he is spending already, fighting another F’n war.

10. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

Can anybody tell us what the master plan is for Libya?

Hmmmm? nah, I didnt think so – because there isnt one.

Its more of the same BS in the middle east: Hope and Pray….as in hope and pray the new crazy that takes control is slightly less wacko than the old crazy we helped depose.

You cant blame this one on Bush.

As far as the comparisons to Yugoslavia? Pfft…we should have never gone into Yugoslavia in the first place. The Europeans are more than capable of handling their own problems, they just like the US to always do the heavy lifting(and spending).

11. YLB spews:

9 – Heh. Because he doesn’t live in the vacuum that’s like the space between your ears.

There’s a whole world out there fool and it needs oil to run. If it doesn’t get it then surprise, surprise – the 10k less that you get for contracts these days drops to..

NO CONTRACTS AT ALL..

12. Dick Caveat spews:

re 1: I agree with you. I remember an American president in the latter half of the 1970′s stating that we needed to get serious about alternative energy, or the Arabs would have us (teh West) by the shorthairs (I’m paraphrasing).

But then, the ‘gipper’ was elected and it was business as usual and (HAW HAW HAW!!!)what about all those chicken little democrats and their screaming about ‘alternative energy’?

We don’t get much oil from the mideast anymore anyway. So, the hell with them. Let’s use the war money on development of alternative energy.

13. zzippy spews:

Well written, Carl.

Heard on the radio a few minutes ago: We fired 100 missiles in Libya yesterday, at a cost of $1 million each. Can the U.S. afford to be firing both missiles and teachers?

14. YLB spews:

We don’t get much oil from the mideast anymore anyway.

That’s false but even if it were true the world economy does and this country doesn’t live in the kind of vaccuum that passes for a right wing brain.

15. Blue John spews:

Can anybody tell us what the master plan is for Libya?
I agree with you. Lack of an obvious exit plan, or even a plan is a very bad idea. Kucinich: Obama should be impeached over Libya action. ‎

However, unlike you and your conservative serf-bots, I question my president when I think he’s messing up. I don’t remember you and your crowd saying one peep of dissent when it’s a republican doing anything. No, you wait till it’s a democrat or a black man, and then you hold them to a different standard. Typical.

16. Rujax! spews:

What was the end strategy in Iraq?

Afghanistan?

What a bunch of hypocrites.

17. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@15

you wrote:”I don’t remember you….:”…of course you dont, you dont know me.

How the hell do you know what I said or thought when “its a republican doing anything”.

I dont care if obama is black…does anybody care? Nobody I know gives a rats ass- and the only people that bring it up are progressives…funny how that is.

I would have fully supported Colin Powell if he would have ran….kinda fucks up your whole arguement there, now doesnt it big guy. Nice try at TEH RAZITS angle – but you fail.

And when it comes to foreign policy in general, I could care less if he is a R, D, or anything else.

it seems YOU live in a partisan world – I dont…as has been stated many times. R or D makes no difference to me – both parties are slime as far as Im concerned.

who is holding who to a different standard? look in the mirror pal.

18. Dick Caveat spews:

re 14: I meant ‘we’ as in the U.S. — not the royal we, as in all of the West.

Is tomorrow always a good day to make a serious start on ending our oil dependence?

http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=vn355energyfactsed

“Amount of U.S. oil consumption that comes from the Middle East: 2 mbd — 12 percent, only three percent from Iraq and Kuwait. The rest of our imported oil comes from places like Canada, Venezuela, Mexico, Nigeria, Algeria, Ecuador, and England.”

19. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@16

1. Iraq: to get rid of saddam and install a pro-US gov.

2. Afghan: to get rid of the Taliban and install a pro-western govt…and kill OBL.

has either plan worked? partly, but not all the way.

Fact is this though: is better to have a plan, even if it doesnt work, than to have no plan at all.

thats the point, in case your feeble brain missed it.

20. Rujax! spews:

@17…

You are a lousy liar. You are as partisan as they come.

You hate the fact that Obama is a black man in the White House.

You hate it that Obama has an actual grip on reality and does not pander to the knee-jerk ideologues you favor.

And the fact that Obama is a Democrat is just icing on the hater cake for you and the rest of the troll-scum over here.

21. Dick Caveat spews:

re 17: ‘NPR keeps getting PWN3D’

“it seems YOU live in a partisan world – I dont…”

pwn3d = 1: Losing badly at something

2: l337 (online) slang for ‘owned’

3: The mis-spelling of ‘owned’

4: Getting showed up/embarrassed in a public event by someone/something

‘I don’t believe you. You’re a liar.’ Bob Dylan

22. Rujax! spews:

19. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@16

1. Iraq: to get rid of saddam and install a pro-US gov.

2. Afghan: to get rid of the Taliban and install a pro-western govt…and kill OBL.

has either plan worked? partly, but not all the way.

Fact is this thought: is better to have a plan, even if it doesnt work, than to have no plan at all.

thats the point, in case your feeble brain missed it.

03/22/2011 at 11:06 am

Niether plan worked.

Both plans were calculated failures. Iraq was invaded to give the boy king an illusery set of balls. So he could be a big man in the eyes of his Daddy. The waste, theft and corruption by Cheney and his pals in Iraq was/and is mind-blowing. (By the way…where IS that NINE BILLION DOLLARS of US taxpayers money that is unacounted for?)

The plan was to start a war, blow things up, squander the Clinton Surplus, and leave the whole mess to the next guy. You really are a simpleton aren’t you?

23. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@20

LMFAO…..

you dont read too well, or have a memory do you….

24. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@21

I always thought Dylan kinda sucked anyway.

way overrated.

25. YLB spews:

20 – I’ll give the bigot lobotomy the benefit of the doubt on Obama’s race – tehchickenshit troll is an old NWA and Fred Williamson fan after all..

But yeah, he’s as smelly a right wing piece of work as they come. His “both parties are slime” line is complete bullshit. Whatever disparages that which he hates, he votes for and 99.99999 percent of the time it has an “R” next to its name.

Colin Powell – what a joke. Soiled himself completely at the U.N. so he could retain Bush’s favor while Cheney/Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz were stabbing him in the back the whole time. He was finished in the political realm after that debacle.

And “Old Ronald Reagan” – I love that line, the doddering speechifying fool who cut and ran from a terrorist attack in Lebanon, who traded arms for hostages with Iran which was declared a state sponsor of terrorism only months before..

We’re privileged indeed to have such a fine ambassador of the Dori Monson mindset here in the comment threads.

26. Rujax! spews:

7. klake spews:

Carl that was one of your best rants written so far and I force to agree with most of the tongue and cheek. There War’s what gives folks we built a military to fight two but three! Don’t worry the folks in the military have been in worst shape like after the abandonment of Viet Nam by Congress. Oh! What happen with the transparent White House, because Congress wants to impeach the Messiah after last week end drum roll? Well life isn’t what it appears in the New York Times or on HA! Now the Kool-Aid does taste great when you add that white stuff!

03/22/2011 at 8:41 am

I thought the flake got kicked out of here. Must’ve been wishful thinking.

27. YLB spews:

18 – You left out Saudi Arabia. We don’t live in a vacuum like our glib friend @ 1 would wish. I’m sorry we’re connected to the rest of the world in countless ways and the role we play with our military .e.g. the 5th fleet in Bahrain is part and parcel of that. It’s just plain reality. If we don’t play this role why should our trading partners be compelled to float our debt?

It’d be nice if we could produce all our own energy but guess what – even that’s unwise – it means at best fossil fuel exporting countries lose their biggest customer, and worse fall into political and economic chaos, i.e. no customers for our goods and services.

28. Roger Rabbit spews:

@2, 3 — Minorities, the poor, and working classes have already done their share. We should enact a draft that takes only the children of families earning over $250,000 a year — with no student or hardship deferments.

29. Roger Rabbit spews:

@4 Yeah, we can count on a “libertarian” like you to sacrifice the lives of unarmed civilians in Libya to Gadhafi’s murderous thugs, can’t we? You suck.

30. Roger Rabbit spews:

Funny how rightwingers want to start wars with everyone except fascist killers. And the war they want to start most of all is a civil war right here at home — there’s no one they’d rather kill than their fellow Americans.

31. Roger Rabbit spews:

@5 “If Obama had had one ounce of leadership, he would have resisted getting into a prolonged mess with a guy who is damn well know for indurance, who sits on megatons of gold and will fight till his last breath.”

Two words: Bush. Iraq.

Now suck my rabbit dick.

32. Dick Caveat (I'll be the judge of that!) spews:

re 24: That still doesn’t change the fact that you are a liar.

And, as for the quality of Bob Dylan’s multitudinous musical musings: I’ll be the judge of that!

33. Roger Rabbit spews:

@9 Geez, all the wingnuts have suddenly turned into peaceniks. What a bunch of dirty fucking hippies.

34. Roger Rabbit spews:

@19 The plan is to protect Libya’s civilians and get rid of Gadhafi. Every third-grader in this country knows that; how come you don’t?

35. Roger Rabbit spews:

CNN Calls Fox A Liar

“A CNN correspondent has angrily denied a Fox News report that he and other journalists were used by the Libyan government as human shields against an attack on Moammar Gadhafi’s compound.

“Fox News’ Jennifer Griffin reported Monday that the British military had to call off a mission on the Libyan ruler’s compound because journalists had been taken there …. She added that Fox correspondent Steve Harrigan avoided the government-sponsored trip because of concern about being used as a shield.

“CNN’s Nic Robertson, who was part of the CNN crew cited in the Fox story, shot back on the air Monday night, calling the allegation ‘outrageous and absolutely hypocritical.’

“‘To say it was a human shield is nuts,’ Robertson said on Wolf Blitzer’s primetime CNN show. … ‘You know, when you come to somewhere like Libya, you expect lies and deceit from the dictatorship here. You don’t expect it from the other journalists.’ In addition, Robertson said, Fox sent a security guard with a camera on the same trip — a detail that was omitted from the Fox report.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42211683/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

36. YLB spews:

You don’t expect it from the other journalists.

Faux??? Journalists? Pleeeeez..

37. LD spews:

Why don’t all you Obama supporters read what the FED has to say about the Deficits Obama is wracking up, and on top of that chooses to add another war with lost planes and 102 million dollar + crusie missles. 14,250 trillion in deficit spending and no end in site

US Approaching Insolvency, Fix To Be ‘Painful’: Fisher

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42209447

38. Michael spews:

@13

The missiles are a sunk cost. The best thing we can do with them is fire them at a fuck head like Moammar and then not replace them.

39. Michael spews:

@34

Obviously, he never made it to third grade.

40. Dick Caveat (I'll be the judge of that!) spews:

re 35: Some say that Fox correspondent Steve Harrigan wisely avoided the government-sponsored trip by safely holing up in the hotel lounge sipping gin-rickies and smoking Chesterfields with an orange complected man believed to have been John Boehner — who had mistakenly traveled to Libya believing it to have been a golfing junket funded by the Koch brothers.

41. Rujax! spews:

@37…

Those deficits were there BEFORE Obama took office you dummy.

Come back when you know what you’re talking about.

42. Right Stuff spews:

34. Roger Rabbit spews:

@19 The plan is to protect Libya’s civilians and get rid of Gadhafi. Every third-grader in this country knows that; how come you don’t?

Really, that’s not what we asked for at the UN?
Are we going to exceed that mandate? I don’t find “get rid of Gadhafi” in this no fly zone mandate….

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm#Resolution

43. Right Stuff spews:

31. Roger Rabbit spews:

@5 “If Obama had had one ounce of leadership, he would have resisted getting into a prolonged mess with a guy who is damn well know for indurance, who sits on megatons of gold and will fight till his last breath.”

Two words: Bush. Iraq.

Now suck my rabbit dick.

Well, Saddam only “endured” under Clinton. That is true? no? He did not last but a few days before he was removed after the international coalition, acting on UN resolution 1441, finally decided to move on his govt. He was removed quickly. As for prolonged?
Iraq has taken a LONG time…Yet, they’re now able to stand on their own, have written, voted and put in place a constitutional framework, provide for their own security and defense, and are an elected gov’t of their people…

44. proud leftist spews:

Who let klake out of the sanitarium?

45. Rujax! spews:

@43…

Oh the humanitarian bullshit…be still my beating heart.

Saddam Hussein was such a THREAT…that the so-called international coalition…Tonga? Latvia? Lithuania? DISSOLVED after 2003 leaving The US and Britain, and the Brits “cut and ran” two years ago. Hussein would have been gone anyway. Iraq was the opportunity of a lifetime to loot and pillage for Cheney and his pals and YOU and the rest of us will be paying for it for decades.

What a patantly dishonest reading of Iraq.

46. Right Stuff spews:

28. Roger Rabbit spews:

@2, 3 — Minorities, the poor, and working classes have already done their share. We should enact a draft that takes only the children of families earning over $250,000 a year — with no student or hardship deferments.

03/22/2011 at 11:49 am

Yet, our all volunteer military continues to meet/beat recruiting goals, year after year…

Draft?

47. Rujax! spews:

@46…

It’s the ONLY place young people can get JOBS you ass.

48. Rujax! spews:

For the benefit of “ld”…

http://www.americablog.com/2011/03/republicans-want-in-god-we-trust.html

Republicans want ‘In God We Trust’ emblazoned on 9,000 federal buildings, cost could top $100m

by John Aravosis (DC) on 3/22/2011 03:23:00 PM

THIS is how much Republicans care about the deficit.

51. Rujax! spews:

@50…

Wow maaaaaannnn….you got me there. Geee willikers you’re just too too too…too!

Be nice if you had a grasp of reality.

52. Michael spews:

@46

Kinda amazing that working class young folks are still willing to sign up considering how badly they’ve been fucked over. I keep expecting them to do like the head of the AZ state senate (R) and declare that they’re not Americans.

53. zzippy spews:

@38:
Hi Michael,
The missiles are a sunk cost. The best thing we can do with them is fire them at a fuck head like Moammar and then not replace them.

I disagree. If they don’t get used, they don’t need to be replaced.

You can’t say the same about teachers.

54. Steve spews:

Best line from HBO’s Triangle fire special,

“If people want to know what deregulated industry
would look like, look at the bodies on the sidewalk outside the Triangle building.”
Leigh Benin, Adelphi University labor historian

55. walk the talk spews:

@11 There’s a whole world out there fool and it needs oil to run

Which also happens to be the undiscovered space between your ears, you moron.

If you want to fight a war, pry yourself away from HA – no small task – and enlist.

Frickin’ armchair warrior.

56. darryldarryldarryl spews:

this 3rd war is ridiculous. so is pretending that we are not taking a lead role. no one believes that and it’s not true.
it’s a total disaster.
Qaddafi now has snipers shooting at innocent people to perpetuate fear.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110322/ap_on_re_af/af_libya

obama getting in was stupid.
it’s even dumber for obama to telegraph no ground troops will be involved. obama is an amateur who acts like he is playing a video game. we desperately need real leadership.

and forcing business to hire military returnees in a recession? carl doesn’t have a clue how difficult things are out there, especially in our state where it is just a matter of time before we see major tax increases in the form of repealing exemptions which will lead to more business flight.

cities in Utah, Idaho, southern states etc have huge staffs of Economic Development people almost permanently in california working out plans for buisinesses to relocate. i know one of these business development pros and the next 2 states on their radar are illinois and washington. if washington repeals, their hitlist is those businesses impacted.

the far-left cannot understand that businesses have options and will not simply sit there and be fleeced. utah has specific proposals which show most businesses a 40%+ reduction in operating costs. that’s huge. it’s simple to calculate how long it will take to amortize the cost of the move. in many cases, it’s 2-3 years. that’s it!

57. darryldarryldarryl spews:

when carl spews the words “shared sacrifice” it means business owners/job creators are about to be fucked again. hold on to your wallet.

58. YLB spews:

55 – zzzzzzZZZZZZ… Wow the tea baggers must be afraid of yet another expensive “quagmire” like…

mmmmm… IraqKosovo… Yeah, that’s the ticket!

The ones with D’s next to their names.

Like the rabbit said, what a bunch of fucking dirty hippies these right wingers…

59. YLB spews:

so is pretending that we are not taking a lead role. no one believes that and it’s not true.

Why shouldn’t we? We’ve got a military sized many times larger than who knows what combined. Calling the U.S to lead means….

ding*ding*ding*

Higher chances of operational success…

Don’t look at me. Right wingers and those bamboozled by their fear mongering brought this about. You voted for it. You wanted a military this size and with this much capability. It was your eyes that teared up after watching the propaganda on Faux News..

60. walk the talk spews:

Meanwhile, while YLB and Rabbit slowly figure out they’re on the wrong side of this issue – and soon enough of most Dems – Daily Kos apparently still hasn’t figured out there even is a war:

http://www.dailykos.com/

Or at least you wouldn’t know from the almost TOTAL lack of coverage.

61. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

I think party member Carl is running for a position on the politburo…..

62. YLB spews:

the wrong side of this issue

So the right side is to allow the old disco and Lockerbie terror funder to continue to murder his own people who just want to do what the people of Egypt and Tunisia just finished doing.

Ho hum…

Never thought I’d see the day when right wingers would support a swarthy anti-U.S./anti-Israeli troublemaker like Gaddafi.

I’m enjoying this.

63. walk the talk spews:

@62 Never thought I’d see the day when right wingers would support a swarthy anti-U.S./anti-Israeli troublemaker like Gaddafi

Right wingers? If you think Democrats or “left wingers” are behind this war, you’re more clueless than your pic suggests.

If you think it’s the right war, get off your fat HA ass and join up.

Enough.

64. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

so now I guess we get to go overthrow anybody we want just because we think its the right thing to do?

Gaddafi has been holed up in tent for the last 20 years – hardly a threat to the US or Isreal – he cant invade anybody, he air force is shit, his army is shit, and he has no navy to speak of….

Im certainly no supporter of the guy, but just because his peeps get pissed of is hardly a reason for us to go in and start a war…WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF CONGRESS.

everybody is a hypocrite these days.

bush I starts war = bad
clinton starts war = good
bush 2 starts war = bad
obama starts war = good

its almost laughable…..

65. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

still waiting for when the limp wrists and incense smeller’s are going to start marching through the streets….

like I said before, they must have all called in sick this time around….ironic.

66. rhp6033 spews:

“…and forcing business to hire military returnees in a recession?”

There are already federal laws on the books requiring business to give reservists and national guardsmen their jobs back when they return, and also prohibiting employers from discriminating against former servicemen/servicewomen who might be called back again. But those laws are often violated.

I know a fellow in the researves, a skilled technition, who regularly gets called up for deployment at least once a year, for a few months at a time. Each time he returns his employer, a large employer in the area, gives him a run-around about how they’ve already given his job away, and they will try to fit him in part-time on an on-call basis, mostly nights and weekends, until something opens up. Every time he hears that, he just pulls out his cell phone, speed-dials his lawyer, simply says “yep, they’re doing it again”, and then hands the phone to whoever is feeding him that line so the lawyer can educate them on the penalties for discrimination.

Of course, they try to retaliate, usually by telling whoever they put in his position that they are getting demoted because of him, and hoping the two of them get into a fight so they can fire both of them. But he’s smarter than that.

I don’t care if it’s a rescession. If a serviceman/woman returns to civilian life after being in the military, they are entitled to their job back and preferential treatment for any host of government jobs. It’s part of the deal we made when we needed them, we can’t renig later because we don’t want to pay the price after receiving the benefits.

67. Rujax! spews:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1194766,00.html

Why Gaddafi’s Now a Good Guy
By SCOTT MACLEOD/CAIRO Tuesday, May 16, 2006

When I called on Libyan Leader Muammar Gaddafi in his Bedouin tent last year, he was at pains to explain how he and President Bush were on the same wavelength. In all his years as a bad boy in the eyes of the West, he said, Libya was simply doing what Bush did when he invaded Iraq. “Bush is saying that America is fighting for the triumph of freedom,” Gaddafi said between sips of tea. “When we were supporting liberation movements in the world, we were arguing that it was for the victory of freedom. We both agree. We were fighting for the cause of freedom.”

At the time, it may have sounded like the typical ramblings of the Libyan leader. But now, a year later, Gaddafi and Bush do apparently see eye to eye. On Monday, Gaddafi accomplished one of history’s great diplomatic turnarounds when Secretary of State Condeleezza Rice announced that the U.S. was restoring full diplomatic relations with Libya and held up the Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriya as “a model” for others to follow. Rice attributed the ending of the U.S.’s long break in diplomatic relations to Gaddafi’s historic decision in 2003 to dismantle weapons of mass destruction and renounce terrorism as well as Libya’s “excellent cooperation in response to common global threats faced by the civilized world since September 11, 2001.”

Ho hum.

68. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

I agree…ex-military should be given preferential treatment.

and to take it one step further, I think serving in the military should be a requirement for anyone who wants to run for congress, house of reps, or president.

69. Rujax! spews:

@64…

The simpleton thinks Clinton started a war.

70. YLB spews:

63 – Too funny… After listening to right wingers for many months calling Obama a “socialist” and Hillary??? Oh my! The horror of Hillary grabbing the reigns of power.

Now these two are starting a little ruckus on their own (Afghanistan doesn’t count – that’s a messy mop up) and with shaky blessing of the Arab League and in concert with other powers in the region.

Poor right wing hearts are all a flutter.

Only those with an R next to their name get to do this kind of thing.

Ho hummm… Right wingers proven wrong again..

71. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@69

another spoon-fed partisan. keep your head buried in that pile of shit you call sand….

72. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

afghanistan is a “messy mop up”?? huh? I can tell you dont know anybody in the military…only a naive feel would make that statement.

73. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

remember when all the left-nuts exclaimed “bush broke the military!”…..where are they now?

lmfao…..

74. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

Credit where credit is due: dennis kucinich is a man of his principals – and I can respect that.

I think its pretty fair to say I dont see eye to eye with dennis the menace on many subjects – but give the man his due. he called bush out on his war and he is calling obama out on his current escapade.

props to kucinich for looking past partisanship and saying/doing what he thinks the constitution stands for
– hell, he might be of the very honest politicians out there.

I might even vote the guy if he ever ran again.

75. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

*very few honest politicians….

76. Rujax! spews:

74. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

Credit where credit is due: dennis kucinich is a man of his principals – and I can respect that.

I think its pretty fair to say I dont see eye to eye with dennis the menace on many subjects – but give the man his due. he called bush out on his war and he is calling obama out on his current escapade.

props to kucinich for looking past partisanship and saying/doing what he thinks the constitution stands for
– hell, he might be of the very honest politicians out there.

I might even vote the guy if he ever ran again.

03/22/2011 at 5:00 pm

Paid troll.

77. YLB spews:

More bullshit from our local Monsonite:

bush I starts war = bad

Heh. That was good. In and out. Objective achieved. Those were the days when Cheney was even sane and said any further action would be a disaster.

You know was really good about it???? Poppy Bush got his coalition partners to chip in on the damn cost!

clinton starts war = good

Shit! Like Rujax said. Clinton didn’t start it. Poppy Bush demurred and said we won’t get involved and then world watched as it sunk into a bloodbath.

Do we get a trillion dollar plus bill from that one?

bush 2 starts war = bad

Ugly situation. Saddam was a real creep but anyone with a brain could see the motivations were all wrong. And remember what a saner Cheney said about “quagmires”?

Trillion dollar plus bill, Abu Ghraib, Haditha, 4000+ Americans dead, who knows how many suicides, missing limbs, PTSD – enough said.

obama starts war = good

Pfft. It’s not a war. The Constitution says only Congress can declare war. It’s a military action sanctioned by the U.N and joined by players in the region. Obama informed Congress within the 48 hour period as specified by the War Powers Act.

78. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

[Deleted -- see HA Comment Policy]

79. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@77

well by that definition we have not had a war since 1945.

fool.

80. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

guess you forgot that congress voted to approve the iraq adventure….

81. walk the talk spews:

@72

Of course he’s clueless. He has no skin in the game, nothing at stake. God knows, he’ll talk up a storm about how important this war is from his HA armchair – which he’s permanently melded to by now.

82. YLB spews:

afghanistan is a “messy mop up”?? huh?

Yep just like Vietnam under Nixon/Ford was. Started by other administrations wound down by them..

Remember Obama wants us to start leaving Afghanistan pretty soon now:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15military.html

83. Rujax! spews:

[Deleted -- see HA Comment Policy]

84. proud leftist spews:

NPR: “I think serving in the military should be a requirement for anyone who wants to run for congress, house of reps, or president.”

Ah, ye civics maven, see any constitutional problems with your proposal? Give it some thought, then get back to me.

85. YLB spews:

he’ll talk up a storm about how important this war

I think it’s important that a country that purports to have the values that we say we have acts to save lives.

If we’re going to stand by and let Gaddafi murder 8000+ of his own people and then the NEXT DAY

BUY HIS OIL???

What the fuck does that say?

Fuck you and your arm chair warrior bullshit.

86. YLB spews:

Here’s some interesting words from a lefty I like to read from time to time:

But tell me this is an “attack on a Muslim nation,” that this is senseless killing of innocent civilians or that this is an unnecessary commencement of a war, then all I can say is cut the crap.

This war was begun by a monstrous dictator who has ruled, unelected and unchecked, through torture, murder and repression while he and his perverted sons have sacked their nation of billions. When civilians, or as you prefer — innocent civilians– finally rose up and said they had had enough, it was Mr. Gaddafi who initiated the war. All he did was kill innocent civilians and threaten to kill thousands more. Given that NO information from Libyan sources is reliable, the number of people this fascist has butchered in the last month are unknown. Conservative estimates are a minimum of 2,000. Opposition sources say the figure is more than 8,000.

THOSE are the innocent civilians murdered in this war — not by U.S. or U.K. or French munitions but rather by their own government.

The western military intervention, if anything, was late. Obama, understandably, was hesitant to act precisely because he was acutely aware of the damage inflicted on U.S. prestige by its intervention in Iraq. He waited as long as he could, which was probably a bit too long, but he — and the Europeans– had their hand forced this week as Gaddafi massed his armies on the outskirts of Benghazi and the mad dictator went on state TV and promised a wholesale massacre.

http://marccooper.com/saving-benghazi/

Sorry right wingers. Gaddaffi is going down for the right reasons and you’re all scared that Obama is going to benefit politically.

Whether he does or not it doesn’t matter. Countries act in their own interest and this is one of the better ways to do that.

87. YLB spews:

Gaddafi has been holed up in tent for the last 20 years – hardly a threat to the US or Isreal – he cant invade anybody, he air force is shit, his army is shit, and he has no navy to speak of….

Poor chickenshit. You’ve really owned yourself on this one.

Then this will be a cake walk right?

And Gaddafi isn’t a threat to his own people? Just gimmee the oil so I can drive my Suburban one block to the Wal-mart and forget about the dirty slobs who have to live under the bastard.

Thanks for the memories. Do come again..

88. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@84

i never said it was constitutional…Its just my opinion.

got a problem with that? tough shit.

89. NPR keeps getting PWN3D spews:

@86

so,,,like…..saddam wasnt killing his own people?

the taliban didnt murder their own people?

nice try at lefty justification….

HERE IS THE FACT: ALL of you leftnuts would be screaming bloody fucking murder if it was Bush who was attacking Libya. and you damn well know it.

90. King Max the First spews:

so according to YLB’s post, we should be attacking every country whose govt is oppressing and murdering its citizens.

LMFAO….guess that means we start attacking half the planet any day now….

91. King Max the First spews:

@87

use your military expertise and explain to the class how the good colonel was a military threat to isreal or the US

remember now, you are the same people who said saddam was no threat…so how can you say gaddafi is?

I am enjoying watching you all struggle to justify this war – while complaining about the same justifications used against the taliban and saddam..

this is gonna be fun.

owned…its whats for dinner.

92. King Max the First spews:

where were all you people who care so much about libya 3 weeks ago? hell, half of you didnt even know where it was.

93. King Max the First spews:

we buy iranian oil….when is the next bombing attack on Tehran?

94. Michael spews:

@53

I disagree. If they don’t get used, they don’t need to be replaced.

They’re still a sunk cost whether we use them or not. By not using them or using them and not replacing them we avoid future costs. Or some shit like that, I may not have it 100% right.

Moammar’s a human shit-stain and getting rid of him seems like a good way to get rid of some of our stockpile, which hopefully wont get rebuilt. I’m an unapologetic pragmatist and opportunist. We could get a 2fer out of this deal.

@89

HERE IS THE FACT: ALL of you leftnuts would be screaming bloody fucking murder if it was Bush who was attacking Libya. and you damn well know it.

Nah, quite a few of us supported going into Afghanistan.

95. King Max the First spews:

point taken Michael…perhaps some(a few) did.

by the same token, there are some on the right who thought it was wrong to go into either afghan or iraq

opinions vary I suppose.

96. YLB spews:

we buy iranian oil

Nope!

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) – Not a drop of oil from Iran reaches the nation’s gas pumps.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/07/news/international/iran_oil/?cnn=yes

Nice try dumbass. Care to PWN yourself even more?

97. YLB spews:

use your military expertise and explain to the class how the good colonel was a military threat to isreal or the US

Will the good “family values” right wing shit stain care to justify buying oil from a guy who is murdering his own people and going on State TV promising a massacre?

I’ll be a bit generous: won’t it be easier for the oil consuming nations to curry favor with the newly emerging democracies in the Middle East if they get behind them in a positive way?

It seemed to work pretty good for us in Kuwait.

98. King Max the First spews:

@97

hey dummy, you have any products from china in your house? I bet you do….

you know what china does to people who dont lean lefty enough right?

if buying the oil is your concern..why not an embargo on his oil and money? hmmmm….worked against saddam didnt it? or at least the left claims it was working….LMFAO…

you still buy Iranian oil? yes you do….so when do we bomb Iran?

dummy….keep trying that justification trick..it aint gonna work…maybe someday you will find the magic answer….

99. YLB spews:

98 – Yawn PWND. Keep flailing if that’s your pleasure… Like…

you still buy Iranian oil

See 96.

100. YLB spews:

And yes, the U.S. does import some oil from Libya.

101. King Max the First spews:

so you are saying there is no Iranian oil on the market?

and you dont buy chinese goods?

wow…just…wow.

102. King Max the First spews:

LMFAO…so NOW, its only justified by YLB to attack another country if WE are using thier oil….if their oil is on the world market, but doesnt reach US shores, and they still kill their people, well then tough shit for their peeps then.

HAHAHHAHHHHA…self ownage – YLBleeder style.

103. King Max the First spews:

here we go..

qualifications for the US stepping in and bombing nations:

you gotta produce oil, sell it on the world market, AND have that oil reach US shores. If it dont reach US shores – well then the peeps is outta luck…..HAHAHHHHHAHHHAHHHAHHAHAHAHAH

104. YLB spews:

101 – 103 “lmfao” Keep flailing.. Adding in China now.. FAIL!

Gaddafi is murdering his own people, going on TV and threatening to massacre more people.

And you’re so freaking addled by Obama derangement syndrome you can’t sit back and let the U.S. with the Brits and French keep a madman from killing more.

OH! IT’S TOO EXPENSIVE WE CAN”T AFFORD IT!!!

Oh and the next day (after Gaddafi has murdered thousands to keep power) you want to either

1) buy his oil (to keep riding in style)

or

2) not buy his oil because after all he’s an evil killer..

and then

3) maybe condemn Obama for letting it all happen..

What a “right to life” guy you are. But I forget – I’m talking to a moron.

105. King Max the First spews:

for a change you actually got something right: yes, I do ride in style.

here is a task for you: go look up some obama quotes from 2007 concerning military intervention….you might be surprised what he had to say – and how it seems to fly in the face of what he is doing.

mmmmmm…can you taste that crow yet? I know you can….

106. MikeBoyScout spews:

Right on Carl

107. YLB spews:

105 – I don’t take orders from a chickenshit “moran“. Stick around – flailing about like an expiring talapia is so becoming of you.

108. LD spews:

YLB (Your Liberal Bullshit) is bankrupting this country.

Obama would rather be spendin billions on his own lavish trips, then ever helping Americans who are out of work.

He and his followers are a bunch of spendomaniacs, and it is biting everyone in 0% interest on your savings, a stock market that is up and down like a roller coaster, deficits in every program and state, and now a new war lobbing billions when we were not even involved.

He is toast in 2012.

109. YLB spews:

108 – It was your crowd that brought us to this point and you’ll sink us even further if you get the chance.

Iraq? Medicare Part B anyone? Hello?

110. Xar spews:

@108:

Obama would rather be spendin billions on his own lavish trips, then ever helping Americans who are out of work.

I’m sorry. Are you just making this up as you go along? When did facts stop mattering? It’s not Obama that has proposed cuts that will eliminate 400,000 jobs, and it’s not Democrats who’ve declared their primary purpose to be knocking Obama out of office, not helping the American people.

Plus, billions on trips? Really? You’re not even trying any more.

111. Rujax! spews:

Stupid motherfucker @108…

I hope you’re not getting paid. You are so stupid…even for a republiclown…you are so demonstrably stupid, you’ll get fired. Today.

Wait a minute sonny, I’ll throw you a bone. That yo-yo who was cock-walking around last week after presenting his bill to bust Washington public sector unions is even dumber than you are (fuck, he’s probably your hero). Go talk to him. Tell him I sent you.

112. Politically Incorrect spews:

Let’s just get the fuck out of the Middle East. Leave the Islamic countries to themselves. If the Europeans and Asians want to get the fuck involved in Sandnigger Land, they by my fucking guest, assholes!!

If you really want to disrupt radical Islamists, just leave them alone: they’ll start killing each other over whether or not Muhammad liked chicken better than beef or some other such nonsensical argument.

113. YLB spews:

Let’s just get the fuck out of the Middle East.

You’re a little child.. Saudi Arabia still produces the most oil and they float a good portion of our debt. Other economies like China and Japan also keep us going – they need oil too.

We’ve got the 5th fleet in Bahrain to defend a little thing called “national interests”.

Without oil, we don’t have an economy. If we get off oil, then yes we can pull back from Middle East.

114. Rujax! spews:

@112…

Children…and not very bright ones.

115. Politically Incorrect spews:

113 & 114,

Here’s a clue, dumbshits – Saudi oil, like oil everywhere, is running out. We’re past peak production and heading down hill.

The best thing to do now is get working on a sensible alternative to oil. Continuing to involve ourselves in the affairs of Islamic nations is not a productive endeavor. In fact, it’s our bungling and blind-faith support of Israel that got us into this mess. If we took a non-interventionist stance and dealt with all countries of the Middle East at arm’s length, we’d get along a lot better and still have oil to buy. After all, nobody makes a dime off of oil until somebody else buys it.

As I’ve stated before, Islam is a religion that is stuck in the 7th Century, and there’s nothing the West can do to bring them out of that. The Islamic World is responsible for changing itself. The more we try to make them like us, the more they become entrenched in what they know: strict, unbending Islam.

I’d say that the only children on this blog are you two.

116. YLB spews:

115 – LMAO!! You’re as ignorant about Islam as you are about the importance of U.S. national interests. Islam is about as stuck in the 7th Century as Judaism is – which means not at all.

Sorry. Not all of Islam is as backward looking as Saudi Arabia. Not even freaking Iran.

And we had diplomatic and business relations with the Saudi Kings WAY BEFORE Israel was founded.

Sorry fool, finding a substitute for oil comes first. And that’s no easy task. The oil companies are doing everything they can to keep that from happening. So until then the oil’s gotta flow or we’re in a world of hurt and that can only mean we stay involved.

117. Rujax! spews:

115. Politically Incorrect spews:

113 & 114,

Here’s a clue, dumbshits – Saudi oil, like oil everywhere, is running out. We’re past peak production and heading down hill.

Agreed. I have never said othewise.

The best thing to do now is get working on a sensible alternative to oil. Continuing to involve ourselves in the affairs of Islamic nations is not a productive endeavor. In fact, it’s our bungling and blind-faith support of Israel that got us into this mess. If we took a non-interventionist stance and dealt with all countries of the Middle East at arm’s length, we’d get along a lot better and still have oil to buy. After all, nobody makes a dime off of oil until somebody else buys it.

Again…I don’t have a problem with any of the preceeding. What makes you thing I do?…or YLB for that matter. Oil companies and oil producing countries have been protected by every administration since Teddy Roosevelt. Jimmy Carter bravely tried to get us on the road to energy independence and was ridiculed by Reagan and the republicans. Maybe we should have listened to Carter.

As I’ve stated before, Islam is a religion that is stuck in the 7th Century, and there’s nothing the West can do to bring them out of that. The Islamic World is responsible for changing itself. The more we try to make them like us, the more they become entrenched in what they know: strict, unbending Islam.

You know what? That sounds exactly like the evangelical christian right in this country. There’s some dumbass megapreacher saying today that the first amandment only applies to christians. Sounds like your entrenched “stricter, unbending christianists”.

I’d say that the only children on this blog are you two.

Really. How so? You’re reasonable sometimes…not like a couple idiots here and I don’t have problems with your comments above…well too much anyway…so what’s the deal? I just can’t take anyone seriously who doesn’t realize that we have a REVENUE problem and we need urgently to INVEST in America and her infrastructure. I can’t take anyone seriously who doesn’t understand that it’s a dire situation that we don’t MAKE anything in the US anymore. I don’t take anyone seriously who doesn’t understand that this is a “bubble up” economy….NOT “trickle down (that means jobs, jobs, JOBS!!!). I don’t take anyone seriously who doesn’t understand that the US has become a corporate Plutocracy/kleptocracy and we need to take this country back.

Other than that…we’re cool.

03/24/2011 at 4:47 pm