Stefan over at (un)Sound Politics wants you to cancel your subscription to the The Seattle Times. Why? Because he doesn’t like what they are reporting.
The day before the election contest trial starts in Chelan County Superior Court, the Times leads its front page with the headline, “Toss out felon vote, Gregoire still wins.” The headline is pretty self-explanatory, and not surprising. Analyzing the felons lists from both parties, using the GOP’s own proportional deduction methodology, the Times found that Gov. Gregoire would still hold a 112-vote lead. But their analysis went further.
An analysis of a random sample of names on the GOP list submitted in March found that about 1 in every 9 names was wrongly included
Lets discuss those other issues then. It seems HA has been avoiding them.
King county election workers printing ballots and taking them home. WHY?
chardonnay @ 1
They were selling them on Ebay as a revenue source to reduce taxes. You mean you haven’t gone to Ebay, picked up a KC 2004 election ballot, framed it, and hung it over your fireplace?
I went over and read the article on SoundPolitics. They call for a cancelled subscriptions not over the accuracy of the story, but about desired things that were not included.
They ring on about the MSM being evil and in bed with the liberal left.
But they don’t contradict any part of the story!
It’s like them and judges…they are “activist” when they don’t agree with you but do a fine job of “interpreting the constitution” when they do.
Sorry, SP folks….you can’t have it both ways. This is a fact-based story that goes to the heart of the republican argument. It’s wonderful to see journalistic integrity take the shape of tracking down the facts…not the blathering (mis)statements made by the republicans.
And now Stefan and his commentators want you cancel your subscriptions and turn off the TV because the MSM hasn’t fully capitulated to the Republicans’ PR machine.
Because the loss in court now appears inevitable to them, regardless of the theory used by the judge, they are converting their stance to attacking Reed more, the judge, King County, the media, and the state itself. This despite the fact that there were able to cherry pick the county the case would be heard in.
They seem little interested in the legal case anymore and are spending all of their time on press releases.
Look for another “fraud” press release from Vance soon despite the fact that Rossi’s lawyers in court have not produced anything to back this up.
Chard @1,
Actually, I addressed — and dismissed — that issue way back on April 24. Just because it’s raised again, doesn’t make it a new issue.
Did all you left wingers renew you subscription to the Washington Times and national Review? Of course not, why pay for a point of view that’s contrary to your own.
Why do you think Limbaugh and co even have an audience? Daily papers and network news (not fox) all more left than right. Yeah they tack both ways, but mostly a left leaning tack.
Yeah what about Newsweek? they started the war in Afghanistan. I know that…cause.
Howard Dean was excellent on MTP this morning. No more laying down for the righties. fight lies with truths. and even some good attack ads.
What are we going to call the 2006 campaign?
“Contract to get America back”?
All we need to show is the voting records of these GOP sheep, and how they harm the common man.
We need to get our own Bill on in every state to get the vote out.
How about a reduction in Mercury? or a requirement for presidents to be honest about why they are sending our young people to die?
Apparently, Vance and company don’t think much of the printed ballots claim either. It’s not mentioned anywhere in their pretrial brief.
I will not cancel my Seattle Times subscription.
Frankly, I think they are doing the job reviewing the felon lists that needs to be done to arrive at a clean list for both sides.
However, I question how they can justify all the months they’ve spent on the R’s list and have apparently spent little time on the Dems list. It appears they have been enlisted to do the Dems work for them…that’s unfortunate. Once they received the Dems list, they should have immediately shifted focus to that list….fairness & balance, right??
But they did not. Apparently they continued to pursue the R’s list and did a “courtesy” look at the Dems list.
As far as I’m concerned though, that’s ok.
It is what it is. Either someone is a felon or not…either they have had their rights restored or not.
I did find it interesting that they choose not to interview some of the real “dirt balls” with long rapsheets. The Times chose to only interview felons that have a story LEFTY’s can especially have compassion for.
How about this…
Let’s interview some of the VICTIMS of these felons. Let’s interview families who’s kids purchased drugs from these dirtballs….or let’s interview burglary or other victims.
Wouldn’t that be interesting??
Talk about a one-sided presentation….it makes these felons sound like somehow THEY are the victims.
No…I won’t cancel my Seattle Times subscription. I don’t have to because I never subscribed in the first place!! Well, once I did but only because I needed newpapers for the bottom of a birdcage and to wrap fish in.
Hey Goldy
How about a comment on the proportion of felons voting Gregoire over Rossi as noted by the Times? Seems to blow your “ignorant white male who doesn’t like women or the AG” theory out of the water. Maybe this will be one of those rare retractions that you are obliged to post.
By the way, the Times was lame to print this before they had analyzed the Democrats felon list. Does that not make the entire premise of the article (especially the headline) BS? These jokers are astute enough to state that Gregoire wins by 112 votes, without analyzing half of the disputed votes in question.
Reply to 6, neither Washington Times nor National Review is MSM and no professional journalist considers what they publish as “news.” Both are “opinion” sheets.
Washington Times is owned and run by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, of “Moonie” cult infamy, an unabashed right winger who tells his brainwashed followers he’s Jesus Christ in the Second Coming. The WT has a small circulation and is not commercially viable. It loses about $50 million a year, and over the last 20 years or so, Moon has subsidized it with over $1 billion of profits from his other business enterprises. Moon can afford to squander that kind of money on a propaganda sheet few people read because his brainwashed followers work without wages in his sweatshops — they’ve volunteered to be slave labor in return for Moon’s vacuous promises of Eternal Life. Anytime one of you trolls uses the WT as a source I’m ROFLMFAO!
It’s also hilarious to watch the neocon trolls accuse Frank Blethen of publishing a commie propaganda sheet (“Pravda”)! I’m sure Frank will be quite surprised to hear that! (derisive laughter in background)
thatPrick@12
So you believe the Seattle is THE news source of the Northwest??
Yeah, right! ZThey didn’t even report on KingCo Election Officials depositions until they were forced to…
Sadly for you thatPrick, there is more to this election contest than the P-I has reported.
Comment on 10, “It appears they have been enlisted to do the Dems work for them … that’s unfortunate.” Mister Cynical, if I’m not mistaken, I do believe you’re accusing the Seattle Times of subordinating their journalistic integrity to the partisan interests of the Democratic Party.
I wouldn’t stand to close to Frank Blethen and his reporters, Miss Emily Heffter and Mister Mike Carter, and say that if I were you. You might get a free nose job.
I, too, wonder what the result would be if the Seattle Times analyzed the Democrats’ list. Since the Democrats cherry picked that list (according to the Times, Rossi won 99% of the precincts the Democrats’ felons came from), I imagine the results would flip: More felon votes for Rossi than Gregoire. That’s not really hard to figure out, is it?
If you attack the Seattle Times for publishing a story that says Rossi would lose under his own proportional analysis, I wonder if you will attack Judge Bridges as in incompetent (or worse) if he rules against Rossi? Hmmmm.
When wingos don’t like the message, they go after the messenger, sure as it rains in Seattle.
Reply to 13, well why don’t you explain it to me then. BTW I still want to know what’s inside your washing machine. How does it change $100 bills from L & I taxes to Rossi slush funds when it goes through the rollers?
OK, now that you’re finding out that people don’t like your use of F-bombs, can you PLEASE get rid of them?? THey don’t add; they subtract.
It would be nice if you all learned what it was like to pay up the wazoo in all the usual taxes we all pay PLUS the B & O and L&I and Employment Sec.. You’d see how easy you all get off in taxes in this state. Business is holding this state up. Believe it. When you start your service business, you’ll find out what I’m talking about and then you’ll understand what the fuss is all about.
BTW, I noticed a leftist blog telling us all to get our news from the Daily Show, and CNN. Wonder why?”???? COULD IT BE that lefties like to get their news from leftist sources????
I am afraid the Dems did a lot better job of finding ineligible felons in Rossi precincts than the GOP did in Gregoire precincts. 99% of the Dems felons come from Rossi precincts, while only 75% of the GOP felons come from Gregoire precincts.
But just take a look at the various counties in which the GOP found no felons or very few felons. Most of those counties were carried by Rossi. But many of them were either close and/or quite politically diverse (i.e. varying party strength in different precincts).
Almost certainly, the GOP overlooked a lot of ineligible felons in Gregoire precincts. This would particularly be the case in Pierce, Snohomish, and Spokane Counties. While Rossi carried all three narrowly, probably close to half the precincts in each county (mostly inner city and urban areas) were carried by Gregoire. But the Dems managed to find a lot more felons than the GOP in each county — and the number of felons per capita in each county is a LOT less than in King County.
I think the GOP concentrated very heavily on King County, and didn’t make such a strong effort in Gregoire precincts in other counties. The Dems, however, probably didn’t overlook a single Rossi precinct in the entire state.
Comment on 16, does this mean you support a state income tax?
Yes, it’s bad policy to force businesses pay 41% of state taxes (the average in western states is 30%). This doesn’t hurt the big companies like Boeing and Microsoft because they have clout to wangle tax exemptions for the Legislature. Mostly if falls on small businesses.
The distribution of the remaining 59% of state taxes among households is even worse. Washington has the most regressive tax system of all 50 states. The lowest 20% of households pay 18% of their income to the state while the top 1% pay only 4%. Clearly, Washington’s tax system isn’t working and should be scrapped.
The obvious purpose of revenue-neutral tax reform is to redistribute the tax burden from those who are overtaxed to those who aren’t paying their fair share. It should shift taxes from small businesses and low income households to high income households. Replacing the B & O and sales taxes with a state income tax will accomplish this.
How about it, Mister M, are you on board for replacing the B & O and sales taxes with a state income tax? Yes or no.
Postscript to 17, L & I and Employment Sec. taxes really are insurance premiums to protect workers from injury and involuntary unemployment. You make it sound like these are personal taxes paid by business owners, but they’re not. These insurance premiums are a cost of doing business just like wages and other labor costs; and like all business costs, they are passed on to the consumer, and are ultimately paid by the business’s customers.
If you don’t like taxes, cut government spending — starting with waste. For starters, we could have saved $300 billion by not starting a war against a country that didn’t threaten or attack us and had no WMDs. The Democrats weren’t responsible for that bit of foolishness, the right wingers did it. Clean up your own act before you come around here complaining about taxes!
Fraud is the issue in 2006 and if Democrats are too stupid, weak, vacillating, “fair”, and saying things like: “If we do that then we’re just as bad as they are!” Then Democrats deserve to lose. This, to Reps., is not about being right, it’s about winning. And saying things like strategery and nuculer is premeditated dumbness to endear themselves to their brain-deficient electorate.
Zip @ 11
”How about a comment on the proportion of felons voting Gregoire over Rossi as noted by the Times? Seems to blow your “ignorant white male who doesn’t like women or the AG” theory out of the water. Maybe this will be one of those rare retractions that you are obliged to post.”
The Times article doesn’t prove much about felon voting behavior either way. Look at just the 25 who voted for Gregoire and the 18 that voted for Rossi. Where did these come from? Probably the vast majority came from KC.
— In KC, the G/R vote split G 0.590 to R 0.410.
— The Seattle Times proportion: G 0.581 to R 0.419.
Even so, would a statistician claim this as strong evidence for anything, given the small sample size? With these numbers (43 who voted G 25 and R 18), the 95% confidence interval around the probability of a felon voting for Gregoire is 44.4% to 73.0%. We should not be surprised if the true voting behavior falls in this range for felons in KC (mostly).
”By the way, the Times was lame to print this before they had analyzed the Democrats felon list.”
Perhaps, but they have had the GOP list for a long time and the Dems list for, at most, a week. (The Democrat’s statistical expert witnesses have only had the list for 10 days). The Seattle Times could have tried to go through that list, too, but the trial will be over before they could really get into it.
The GOP got a HUGE PR benefit by releasing their ex-Felon list very early. This article is a minor setback to them in that advantage. IMHO, the GOP comes out ahead in the PR battle overall.
thatPrick@15–
OOOPS! You blew it.
Alan/CynicalSucks/a dozen or more other ID’s and now PATRICK??
Your previous ID’s used the same washing machine analogy.
This blog is a joke!
You have 1 guy using a dozen or more ID’s.
Goldy–how many of the Alan/Patrick et al have come in with the exact same IP??? I thought so.
So Goldy…you are building your fame by allowing 1 person to post under numerous ID’s???
This idiot has over 1/2 of your posts!!
No credibility.
How about 1 ID per person.
Start with thatPrick!!
I can name an idiot who has the other half of the posts.
It’s a free country, asshole. I can call myself anything I want to. I can also call you anything I want to, jerkoff.
This is going to be a great week to watch the spin. In the end of this round, not only the judge, bu8t the entire country will get a look at how King County counted it’s votes, and the country will be laughing. Go Rossi! Bye Bye Sims, this could not be a better time to show the Ron Sims Story of political correctness and honesty. I won’t be opening an account at Ron Sim’s Bank!
The really funny thing is to read the comments on the SP posting. They are all feeding off each other about how evil the Times is.
Quite amusing
Don/Alan/CynicalSucks/Patrick/thomas Trainwinder/dozens of other ID’s—@ over 50% of the Posts on Goldy’s blog–
Gee, I remember several faithful LEFTIST PINHEAD readers here doing a “statistical analysis” and declaring Goldy’s Blog was more popular based on the number of posts.
It’s called “cookin’ the books”!!!!
LEFTIST PINHEADS are pretty good at it until someone calls BS on it…JUST LIKE IN KINGCO!!!!
If you don’t like the results, you find unethical ways to change the results. It’s the Leftist PINHEADED way!! Notice how thatPrick et al has absolutely no conscience about doing it either. That pretty much says it all.
It is kind of a shame that Goldy must lower himself to this to try to build credibility.
It takes literally months to do what the Times did with the GOP felon list. They would have done it with the Dem list if they could have, but since they had it for one week, they did what they could. The calculated how inaccurate the Dem list would have to be in order to give Rossi the election. That is a logical way to look at it. Anyone who is so critical of this story simply isn’t interested in an honest and fair analysis.
Winning, as I’m sure you’ll agree, is not as pinheaded as losing, Mr. Cynical Pinhead loser. WA state is the shape of things to come for Republickglands nationwide. The strategery is to hang tough and defeat you dumb loudmouth bastards. It’s working here!
Richard Pope @ 18
“But the Dems managed to find a lot more felons than the GOP in each county – and the number of felons per capita in each county is a LOT less than in King County.”
Check out Mark Handcock’s analysis for the Democrats here. Professor Handcock used the county of residence of all parolees under the supervision by the State Dept. of Corrections in 2005. You will see that KC is right in the middle of counties in “per capita” felons on parole in Figure 3. (I say “per capita”, but it is really the number of paroled felons per vote cast). About half of the counties are above KC and half below KC in this measure. He also shows that there is a slight trend toward a lower density of felons as the fraction of Gregoire vote increases.
“I think the GOP concentrated very heavily on King County, and didn’t make such a strong effort in Gregoire precincts in other counties. The Dems, however, probably didn’t overlook a single Rossi precinct in the entire state.”
I’m not sure about precincts, but the Democrats had to focus on many more counties just to offset the huge population of King county. Professor Handcock’s Figure 5 shows the overall “propensity to appear in the combined [list].” It shows that the Republicans largely mined King. Perhaps they could have squeezed more out of Thurston with 114,000 ballots, and possibly Jefferson (low density and only 19,000 ballots).
The Democrats heavily mined Grant, Benton, Yakima, Okanogan, Kittitas, Douglas, and Whitman. Only Grant and Yakima have a higher per capita number of paroled felons than KC. The Democrats probably should have focused on Lewis, Chelan, and Ferry for an additional 65,000 ballots. Ferry is tiny, but they have a 4.5 time higher density of paroled felons than does KC. There are a whole bunch of counties for which the number of felons is underrepresented on the democrats list, but most of these counties fall in the range of 40% to 50% Gregoire vote. Even if these counties are under-mined, some of them are probably small enough that few invalid votes would turn up.
Both parties could have optimized their hunt if they had had Professor Handcock’s analysis before they started. Of course, I have claimed all along that if all counties were equally scrutinized and a proportional analysis were used, we would find that about the same number of votes would be removed from Gregoire as Rossi.
The really funny thing is to read the comments on the SP posting. They are all feeding off each other about how evil the Times is.
But we were being told here that the Washington Times is standard reading material of the right.
Hey Cynical I’m not Don/Alan, etc.
That being said Don/Alan, etc. is probably the best commenter on this board. Neither you or I can hold a candle to him when it comes to experience and perspective.
Now I’m really going to blow your mind. I believe your heart was in the right place when it came to your support of Rossi. I understand you’ve voted for Democrats in the past so you show some independence of thought and action.
On the other hand you’ve totally blown it with your 3rd grade name-calling behavior on this comment board and your sycophantic manner at (u)SP. What’s going to happen if Rossi loses the lawsuit? Is your head going to explode?
You’re the joke, pal.
Goldy,
I am still waiting for the methods, data and links that you used for your gas tax graphic in that thread so long ago. You said you would provide them, remember?
I may be in the minority here but as a Democrat, I do not like what my party has done. I would rather lose in a fair contest than win because of funny business. This tarnishes me as a Democrat. I am ashamed to be a Democrat.
Mr. Cynical @ 24
You JUST figured out who Patrick is? A little show on the uptake, you are.
No wonder Republicans had so many errors on their invalid voter list! :-)
Harry, have you just gotten here? What have the Democrats done besides come out on top of a too-close election? Should Democrats just concede all too-close-for-comfort elections? Do you think the Republicans would do this?
There’s been zilch evidence of fraud. One can argue there’s been sloppy elections management but that was evident everywhere in the state even in the red pro-Rossi counties.
Either you’re a troll or have just bought into the (u)SP/KVI demagoguery.
Frank Blethen’s Times IS a liberal rag. I don’t care if John Jacob Astor owned the Times. They are playing to what liberals want to hear, because SURPRISE SURPRISE, liberals constitute the majorority of their readership.
Don’t beleive me? Email Floyd McKay at the Seattle Times and ask him if the Times is a “Newspaper of Record”.
Let me also add, that as a liberal I am quite glad the Times IS a liberal rag!
:)
Gee the Dems felon list includes only 99% dem areas ONLY! Imagine that! The Reps felon list includes only 74% rep areas ONLY.
SOOOOOOOO WHO IS DOING THE MOST CHERRYPICKING >>>>>>>>>HUH!
Which of the two lists did the Seattle Times base their BULLSHIT 3 month STUDY ON? ONLY THE REPS LIST,
Let’s not include evaluating the Dem’s list as closely!
The Judge will!
Bend over folks, tommorrow the TRUTH begins to be told to the entire country! The Entire country will be watching and hearing what an example King County Elections is!
Leeeeeeeesssssssss GO!
We’ll keep the light’s on for ya!
Till the truth is revealed and the B is gone! :):):):):):)
John@38,
The Democrats should have come out strongly against the funny business at King County Elections. It damages their credibility and gives Republicans ammunition.
To cover up for a crook because he is OUR crook is not a Democrat tactic, it is what Republicans do.
John@38,
I want to beleive there is no fraud, I really do. I also wanted to beleive Bill Clinton when he denied it too. But when I read about the falsified report, I got a sinking feeling in my gut.
I just want the elections to be fair and accurate. Wouldn’t we want the same if the situation was reversed? Can you look at what has transpired (dead people, illegals voting) and tell me honesty that it reflects the high standards of the Democrat party? I thought we were better than grabbing power at any cost. Isn’t that what Bush did in 2000? Does it make it right for us to do that? Then what do we become?
John@38,
Does every Democrat have to fall in line and have nary an independent thought or be labelled a troll?
Harry,
Can’t you see that the Republicans are manipulating the media? Are you an idiot or just another damn Republican calling himself a Democrat?
How the FUCK can you call youirself a Democrat an make such assinine statements? Gregoire won the damn election. We won’t give it up and lay down to those fucking repukes! You must be a goddamn troll. Go back to winger land troll!
Harry @ 43
Again, where is the proof of fraud? I’ve seen none. How many dead people have been found to have voted. Hardly any. Double-votes? A couple dozen? The number of felons voting keeps sinking.
In a close contest there will always be doubt but the law says someone has to win. The Republicans want it to be their side every time. The only Democrats I can support are those who are willing to fight against that kind of win at any cost mentality.
harry, dead people and felons voting are the fault of the Secy of State and the Legislature. Their inability to provide useful, comprehensive lists of both felons and deceased to the counties are what caused those problems.
GS @ 41
”Gee the Dems felon list includes only 99% dem areas ONLY! Imagine that! The Reps felon list includes only 74% rep areas ONLY. SOOOOOOOO WHO IS DOING THE MOST CHERRYPICKING”
Get a grip on yourself, pal. The Dem legal team had a very different reason for finding invalid votes than did the GOP legal team. The Dems mostly wanted to show the extent of cherry picking by showing what happens if you go elsewhere in the state (where the GOP avoided).
Both Dem Statisticians will be arguing that a proportional analysis is scientifically invalid if you cherry pick. In fact, the Republican Statistician will probably be forced to agree with this (based on his deposition). So, the Republicans were idiots for cherry picking—it ruins their legal case. The Dems needed to cherry pick to demonstrate just that.
Oh. . . ok. You are just being an asshole. No problem. But look at posts 23 and 30, which point out that there was no way the Times had time to look at the Dems list.
Comment on 24
“Mommmeeeeee! Look what Paaatrick did! Waaaaaaaa!”
God you’re pathetic
Comment on 29
Thomas Trainwinder isn’t mine, that’s somebody else, I don’t know who.
Gaseous Sh*thead (GS) @ 41
BRING IT ON!
By the way, what does “B” stand for?
Mr. C, look at the bright side! I only voted once.
Reply to 36
I would rather lose in a fair contest than win because of funny business, too. That’s one of many things that makes me different from the Republicans. Now, Mister Harry, would you kindly explain what the Democratic Party had to do with any of this — felon votes, misplaced votes, etc.? Would you kindly explain why the Democratic Party is responsible for the screwups by election bureaucrats? I think you’re confusing the Democrats with somebody else. Also, if you get your head out of your ass long enough to think things through, it might — just might — occur to you that the screwups in King County probably cost Gregoire legitimate votes.
Reply to GS @ 41, “Gee the Dems felon list includes only 99% dem areas ONLY! Imagine that! The Reps felon list includes only 74% rep areas ONLY” … yeah there seems to be some serious incompetence on the GOP side!!!
As I recall, they dropped the ball on the signature gathering too (which, by the way, was perfectly legal). Rossi would be in Olympia instead of court right now if he had sent out signature gatherers when he heard the Democrats were doing it.
GOP = klutz
Harry @ 42
Hey Sleeping Beauty, the Democrats did something about the election’s problems where it counts — in the Legislature. One of the first things Gregoire did in office was convene an election reform task force, which held public hearings all over the state to collect citizen input. Did you go to one of those, or were you unable to tear yourself away from the boob tube long enough to express your opinion when it might have done some good?
thatPrick@54–
I actually agree with you that Rossi would be Governor now IF the R’s had sent out signature gatherers when they heard the Dems were doing it. Those silly R’s actually thought the election was over long before November 16th!
Anyone who complains about so-called “cherry-picking” is being silly. dj has this theory that somehow Judge Bridges is going to look at all these proven ILLEGAL VOTES and do absolutely nothing. dj has beat that drum damn near to death. However, I’ll bet dj $50 that it won’t play out his way. Wanna beat dj?
Goldy can be the money middle-man.
Reply to 43
Harry, we all want fair and accurate elections. In the real world, no election is perfect. Collecting and counting nearly 3 million votes in 39 counties is a process vulnerable to human error, and probably always will be. If you believe there was fraud in this election your brain has been fried by listening to too much GOP propaganda. Even the Republicans aren’t alleging fraud, at least not in court, which is the only thing that counts.
Where do you get this idea that the Democratic Party is responsible for how elections are conducted? That’s the responsibility of 38 elected county auditors and, in King County, of the appointed elections director. The Democratic Party can’t tell these folks what to do, and it would be inappropriate for them to try.
When you talk about “we” and “us” (i.e., Democratic partisans) grabbing power, just what are you saying “we” did? We campaigned for our candidate. We poll watched. We donated money for the recounts and court case. So what? Isn’t that the role of party activists in a competitive democracy?
If you’re accusing the Democratic Party of stuffing ballot boxes, causing felons to vote, casting ballots of dead people, or other hanky-panky … you’d better be prepared to put up, pal. Either you have specific examples with proof, or you’re just belching hot air.
John@46
Pull your head out of your ass, two elections supervisors conspiring together to falsify documents…fucking fraud, fucking organized fraud! Wake up!
Chuck @58 – Organized for what purpose? Two folks do not follow procedure and that somehow equates with throwing out governor? So by your logic, should we throw out Bush too if anyone can find two election officials in Ohio who did not follow procedure? Seriously, try decaf…
Patrick, what did all those Dem poll judges who were sent home with blank ballots the week before the election DO with them? There was no requirement to turn in leftovers and account for everything. One big ballot-box stuffing opportunity right there.
Mr. C @ 54
Ain’t that just like a Republican — throwing money around hoping to buy an argument when he doesn’t have one?
The Republicans are the challengers, dunderhead! The burden of proof is on THEM!!! The Democrats don’t have to do ANYTHING although they can rebut the GOP’s evidence if they want to. Let’s not forget the Democrats weren’t even sued. They’re a party to this lawsuit only because they asked to be, as intervenors.
Cynical, if your pals at BIAW had played a straight game — if they had canvassed the entire state instead of cherry-picking felon votes in King County — there wouldn’t even be a Democrat list. (They also might have saved Rossi $2 million in legal fees.)
Not long ago, you were crowing the Democrats were stupid for dropping the ball on felons. I tried several times to warn you that the Democrats had been gathering felon lists in Rossi counties for months, REMEMBER??? And Lo … a Democratic felon list appeared! If you and your BIAW buddies were taken by surprise, it’s your own damn fault.
Let me tell you something about Republicans: They’re not good listeners. The reason is they enclose themselves in a bubble and shut out the world around them. You could walk up to them, say you’re a Democrat, and tell them what you plan to do. They won’t hear a word past “Democrat,” because as soon as they hear that, they turn their ears off and stop listening. This, of course, is incredibly stupid because it means they don’t know what the Democrats are up to even if you tell them!
Now let’s talk about the signatures. The Democrats collected over 1,000 signatures, of which roughly 700 were valid, and Gregoire won by 129, so you do the math.
All the ballots with signature problems were absentee ballots, that’s obvious right? (If you vote at a polling place, you sign a poll book, not a ballot envelope.)
The election WAS over on November 2, and absentee ballots not postmarked by that date didn’t count. HOWEVER … as to a few voters who forgot to sign their absentee ballots, and quite a few more whose signatures didn’t match … the counties sent them letters saying their votes wouldn’t count unless they provided a signature by November 16. A signature card was enclosed. All they had to do was sign the card and mail it back to the county auditor. NOTE: THE COUNTY AUDITORS SENT THESE LETTERS AND SIGNATURE CARDS, NOT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.
Needless to say, some of the recipients sent in their signatures without any prompting. As to those who didn’t, the counties GAVE BOTH PARTIES A LIST of the voters whose ballots were being held for signatures.
The Democrats immediately mobilized 7,000 volunteers to contact these voters through phone banking and door knocking. This isn’t hard for the Democrats, all they have to do is call a couple unions. The Republicans are handicapped by the fact they lack a similar manpower pool. Nonetheless, it is inexplicable that the Republicans DID NOTHING. What the Democrats were doing wasn’t a secret; it was plastered all over the news media.
I was the first person to realize this, and I was the person who alerted the Democratic party staff about it. They didn’t believe me it first. They didn’t think it was possible for the Republicans to be that stupid. But within a couple of days, it was unmistakable — there was no GOP phone bank, there were no GOP workers in the field, and Rossi voters on the list were telling us that no one from the GOP had contacted them.
And that, my friends, is how Christine Gregoire won the election.
Reply to 60, since every polling place had one or more Republican poll officials and/or poll watchers present at all times, don’t you think they would have seen something, if that had happened?
Just to demonstrate how disingenuous your argument is, every bank you walk past is an opportunity to rob a bank, but that doesn’t mean you robbed the bank does it?
Cheesy Chuckie @ 58
Looks more to me like two bureaucrats filling out a report the way they think the boss wants it in order to cover their asses. I’ll bet Way and Fell didn’t spent 3 seconds thinking about what the paperwork was, or the implications of the numbers not balancing. But if they did know that what they did with that report opened a door to ballot box stuffing, they would have no way of knowing who was doing the stuffing, or for which candidate, would they?
And just because they phonied up the paperwork to look good, doesn’t mean any phony ballots were cast. So where’s the election fraud? Instead of blowing hot air out of your ass, PROVE there was fraud!
Goldy,
“Stefan over at (un)Sound Politics wants you to cancel your subscription to the The Seattle Times. Why? Because he doesn’t like what they are reporting.”
Do you have to come up with some sort of reactionary thread for EVRYTHING Stefan writes?
I guess we know who leads and who follows.
thatPrick@61–
You won’t get any argument from me that the Dems are better at mobilizing activists than the R’s.
However, you do know that the Dems DID wait quite some time before they began working on their list. All one has to do is look at the PUBLIC RECORD REQUESTS thatPrick. The Dems were both a little slow AND not as accurate as you might like to think. There were many on the Dem Felon list that we knew were wrong person, juvenile felon, had rights restored etc. It will all unfold tomorrow.
All I wanted was a little friendly wager from dj about his endless, relentless droning that the Judge would throw out the R’s case because they “cherry-picked”. Apparently dj is unwilling to put his money where his mouth is.
It’s nice of you thatPrick to try to SHOUT me down….but all I was trying to feel out if dj truly believes what he says here…
or like you, is mainly blowing crap out his butt.
I suspect it’s the latter.
Reply to 65
The Democrats didn’t have a BIAW with access to L & I money on their side.
How do you “shout down” someone on a written blog? I’m curious about how the mechanics of that work. While you’re at it, could you also explain what’s inside your machine that changes $100 bills from L & I taxes for injured workers into Rossi slush funds? I’m really really curious how the mechanism works!
As for calling me a “prick” — at least you got that part right … I’m a prick. Exactly what this blog needs to deal with a half dozen neocon pricks.
I admit the 6-to-1 odds are unfair. If you neocon pricks had a dozen more guys, you might have a chance.
thatPrick–
You are an ANGRY man!!
Too bad you can’t re-live your pathetic, miserable life.
You must live with the fact that you were a worthless guv’mint lawyer who accomplished nothing @ DSHS….unless you count fucking up some innocent people’s lives by unnecessarily dragging them thru the court system as accomplishing something. You are a lowlife…pitiful….
Cynical, you’re not a very bright guy. They’re paying me to not show up for work. I spend all day on my computer mind-fucking you and your pals. And you think I’m angry? This is heaven! Don’t take it personally, I just do it for fun.
Uh, were we debating Joni Balter and her bolshevik brethern, brethernettes?
Isn’t the fact all the right yells “liberal paper” and the left says “oh not the times, the PI maybe, but oh golly, cannot be the times” pretty much proof , yeah it is a lefty paper.
I mean every day; goldy, why not do a daily “left wing MSM in seattle” post. very easy for us to show bias (of course then i’d have to read the full times, not just the sports and business pages.
NO, I’m not for a state income tax. the B&O is already a de facto income tax. Just get rid of it. Period
and Patrick, yes Gregoireov had a task force with meetings around the state. AND PEOPLE SAID THEY WANT PROOF OF CITIZENSHIP TO REGISTER AND ID AT THE POLLS! BUT DID GREGGY GIVE IT TO THEM?? NOOOOOOOOO. That would make it harder to commit fraud!
Why don’t you call Frank Blethen and complain he’s publishing a left newspaper, and see what he says. I think that’ll be news to him.
dON’T HAVE call him and complain. Cancelled my subscription to his paper long time ago
Reply to 71
On paper, the high taxes paid by small businesses and the low taxes paid by high income households might balance out, if you assume that small business owners tend to have high incomes and high income households tend to own businesses. The trouble is, many small business owners make modest incomes. (For example, my mechanic makes around $50,000 a year even though he employs several other people.) So it doesn’t balance.
Another defect of our existing state tax system is that revenue doesn’t grow as quickly as population and inflation, so the Legislature has to continually raise taxes just to maintain existing services.
Yet another problem is the unpredictability of revenues, and the revenue stream’s volatility (and vulnerability to economic fluctuations). The resulting boom-and-bust revenue cycles encourage the Legislature to overspend in flush times and create shortfalls in lean times.
There’s virtually nothing to like about our cobbled-together, 19th century, crazy-quilt tax system. So why would you want to keep it?
Oh, I know what you’re going to say. What you righty trolls really want is to eliminate (or at least reduce) business taxes without making up the lost revenue elsewhere, and slashing state spending. Or, more precisely, public education … because that’s where nearly half of state spending goes, and you can’t get the kind of cuts you need to eliminate the B & O tax without cutting off state support to public colleges and severely cutting back public school budgets.
But that’s what those of you who can afford to send your kids to private schools want, isn’t it? Private schools, and fuck the kids whose parents can’t afford them.
Comment on 73
You don’t read newspapers? Especially those which publish news you don’t want to hear? No wonder you’re so fucking ignorant.
Patrick @ 74
I know why you want to keep “our cobbled-together, 19th century, crazy-quilt tax system.” Because the Democrats running this state continue to make it worse each session in Olympia and you worship the ground they walk on.
You “progressives” only want more revenue, you actually don’t give a rip aboout how regressive our taxes are. Your so-called concern is just a ruse you pull out to justify higher taxes. Your hero Gregoire never once considered some actual tax reform, and you still worship the ground she walks on.
Hey Zippy
you may want to think about getting a thessorious.
gosh…
PBJ…
Well, at least I know you’re not a professional troll, because a professional would have known to come in on a different IP when posting as Harry (and then again as
John @38Joseph @45).Now some people use different names as a joke (like Mrs. Cynical) and that’s okay. And some of the people here just like to change they’re names from time to time for some reason, like Don/Alan/Patrick or ProudAss/PetLibs… and that’s fine too, because they don’t change personnas.
But what you did was just plain dishonest and manipulative. And disrespectful. But then, you’ve long established yourself here as a lying bastard, so this should come as no surprise.
[NOTE: I’ve edited this to correct my error. Sorry John.]
Mr. Cynical @ 56
“Anyone who complains about so-called “cherry-picking” is being silly. dj has this theory that somehow Judge Bridges is going to look at all these proven ILLEGAL VOTES and do absolutely nothing. dj has beat that drum damn near to death. However, I’ll bet dj $50 that it won’t play out his way.”
I am not sure what you mean by “dj has this theory that somehow Judge Bridges is going to look at all these proven ILLEGAL VOTES and do absolutely nothing.” I think he will do something; he will reject the proportional analysis or, if he accepts it, he will find that the GOP loses on the combined proportional analysis.
More specifically, I have said before, the Republicans have three hurdles: (1) the proportional analysis will be rejected as inferior science (ecological fallacy), or (2) the proportional analysis will be rejected because the data are not sufficient to do a proper analysis (cherry-picked argument). Both of these points were hammered home in the Dems statistical expert witnesses. And, (3) he allows the analysis for the following reason:
The proportional analysis is psychologically very compelling. Therefore, I am not certain that the analysis will be rejected. The very fact that the Dems have come up with their own cherry-picked list (and the fact that they have developed a method to take voter sex into account) makes me think that Judge Bridges may use the following reasoning: a) the GOP list and the Democrat list are cherry picked to about the same extent (see Handcock’s Figure 5); therefore, b) the biases of each list roughly cancel each other out, meaning the proportional analysis is roughly unbiased using the combined list. He very may allow it by that reasoning.
If he reasons this way, the GOP loses because Gregoire wins using the GOP’s analysis on the combined list.
So, Cynical, what I am willing to bet $50 on is that either Bridges will throw out the statistical analysis of the invalid vote list altogether, or he will allow it with the combined lists (minus any individual cases deemed to have insufficient evidence to be included in the lists) and the GOP does not win that analysis. In other words, I am convinced the GOP will not win via any kind of proportional analysis.
After reading the GOP brief (but not the Dems brief), I think the GOP has some small chance of winning, but not on the proportional analysis.
”Wanna beat dj?”
Please, Cynical, I don’t discuss my sex life on the blog :-)
Cynical @ 65 ”…all I was trying to feel out if dj truly believes what he says here…”
I do. I know with great certainty that the proportional analysis is bad science. The two Democratic statisticians strongly agree. Even Professor Katz confesses to this in his deposition. However, Professors Katz, Handcock, and Adolph are not lawyers and neither am I. Therefore it is hard to evaluate how the Judge will rule. But, if he allows the combined analysis, the GOP still loses. In fact, if only the Republican list of invalid votes is included, but Professor Handcock’s sex adjustment is deemed the appropriate final analysis, the GOP will probably lose on that analysis. Why? I’ve crudely estimated that Rossi only wins about 65-70% of the time with that analysis. Scientists typically use 95% certainty as a standard of proof roughly equivalent to the judicial “preponderance of evidence” standard. Therefore, 70% certainty does not cut either “preponderance of evidence” or “clear and convincing.”
Goldy,
Why is it always “Stefan” this and “Stefan” that?? My friends (not!) say that you are a SP wannabe. Maybe you have just been in it too long and need a vacation.
Hey Goldy,
Bush is losing in your lame ass poll. Isn’t it about time for you to pull this poll since it’s not the result you want, just like you always do?
Model erection @ 81
Get a life, dweeb. The poll is called a “lame ass poll” precisely because Goldy (and the rest of us regulars) don’t take it seriously. Geez. . . can’t you just have a little fun with it?
I am sick to the point of despair over those who take these comment threads so unseriously that they would use a false name.
Patrick. I read the KC JOurnal. Didn’t say I didn’t read newspapers. So you can save your F-bombs for your dog. If I didn’t read any newspapers, why would you care? Did you know that you can get lots of news online if you just look? Of course you did. YOur post did not do you any favors. Maybe you could get Christine Gregoire to pass a law requiring everyone to read the newspapers that you think they should read.
Reply to 83
“I am sick to the point of despair over those who take these comment threads so unseriously that they would use a false name.”
It isn’t a matter of taking the threads “unseriously” as you put it. It’s a matter of protecting ourselves and our families from harassment, threats, or worse. Get it?
Almost everyone on this blog except Goldy conceals their identity. You’re a fool if you don’t.
I was out all day taking advantage of the rare sunny day, and I first went to SP.com and commented on Shark’s blog entries making pretty much the same points Goldy makes here, which I read after the fact.
How many hundreds of postings has Shark spent on the felon vote, and now he wants to say it diverts attention from the real issues?
Pretty lame, but hey, that’s Shark at his worst.
Goldy@78,
Busted! Yeah I was wondering how long it was going to take for you to catch on! The others fell for it hook line and sinker!
Goldy,
I am still waiting for the sources, methods and data for the Gas Tax thread…..
Still waiting……… unless of course you just made it up.
I think an entire felon list shall be rejected if more than 5% of the list is problematic. Too many errors for us to be sure.
Hey “righton” you’re a celebrity! Your asinine comment on Soundpolitics about being “nervous” about Judge Bridges’ “politics” was quoted this morning in a story on KOMO’s web site.
Judges aren’t supposed to have “politics,” dummy! Judges are supposed to be neutral, impartial, and deciding cases according to the facts and law.
You need to retake your 9th grade civics class.
Too many errors for us to be sure…..who won!!
don/alan/patprick,
if thats true then WHY is there a filibuster going on right now? And, patprick, how many of our local Judges are connected to crissy? Alexander, Chuck Johnson, B Masden (Gonzaga w/crissy), Sanders (crissy tried to ruin), Bobby Bridge (drunk crissy defended), Chambers, Fairhurst, Owens and Jim Johnson.
simpleton at 92, because Democrats don’t want Bush filling the federal bench with political judges who — guess what — will be judicial activists to impose a political agenda on the country.
charred brain cells @ 91, you miss the whole point, honeybuns!
Elections are like court proceedings. Their main purpose is to produce a RESULT, and perfection of process is a desirable but secondary goal, never to be subordinated to the necessity of producing a decision that has finality.
For a simpleton like you, this means the whole fucking point of elections is to elect somebody. If the election wasn’t perfect — and none ever are — that’s too bad. It’s more important to just resolve the thing so everyone can go about their business.
mr. cyincal…
You sir are an ass!
For the specific reasons that; a) You attack Goldy for allowing fredom of anonymity. b) For accusing another poster for using another name (weather you have the FACTS to back it up or not). c) Accusing another poster of having “over 1/2 the posts” , like theres some rule about who can post and how often. d) You believe that Goldy is allowing this to boost his credibility.
Sounds aweful Neocon to me! Critize the first amendment, critize freedom of choice, toss accuzations with out all the facts, attempting to insert your own specific rules and accuse another as purposfully benifiting from said actions.
Maybe we should start a campagain that Mr. Cynical is a horses ass! Or maybe you should to Mr. Hypocritical..’cause that what you have made your self.
Want to control people, start your own damn blog, then you can set all the rules youd like. Oh, maybe learn your percentages while your at it.
Comment on 87, the difference between you and me, Fuzzy Eyeballs, is that I have never tried to pose as a Republican.
It would be foolhardy to try. I’d be no good at it. I just can’t be that dishonest and stupid, no matter how hard I try.
The flip side is, a person who is dishonest and stupid enough to be a neocon can’t come across as a Democrat no matter how hard he tries. He just doesn’t have the necessary equipment. That’s kind of like trying to put a castrated horse out for stud, know what I mean? Trust me, you fooled no one with your pose.
there’s no fillibuster going on right now…?
Comment on #21
Patrick – “The Democrats weren’t responsible for that bit of foolishness, the right wingers did it.”
Take a look at this fully referenced list at http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html. You will see that the democrats were just as responsible for the “foolishness” as you call it. They just didn’t have the balls enough to do what they championed. Instead they cowered and talked for years until a party with strength, conviction, and balls came to power to do their dirty work. You all are typical of the school yard wuss who picks a fight and then runs to the teacher.
Patrick – “by not starting a war against a country that didn’t threaten or attack us and had no WMDs”
No, WMD have not been found and they may not be there now. WMD was there and your own democrap leaders knew it as well according to the same link. They aren’t there now because while you and yours were cowering Iraq dispersed them. Thank you dems for your prompt handling of the situation which is the real cause of the war. The Republicans have to fix your mess for you and take the blame but that’s ok we can handle it. We won’t cower.
As for threats, your own poster boy of all that is good and demo said it himself…”The hard fact is that so long as Saddam remains in power, he threatens the well-being of his people, the peace of his region, the security of the world.” — Bill Clinton 12/16/98
http://www.freerepublic.com/fo.....0953/posts
Last I checked, the US was part of the world. Just because he didn’t count to 100 and say “ready or not here I come America” doesn’t mean he wasn’t coming. Did japan threaten before Pearl Harbor?
response to 98
So, “No, WMD have not been found and they may not be there now. WMD was there and your own democrap leaders knew it…” how elloquenty put. They must be were Bin Ladin is now huh? Dissapeared into thin air…
Would have been a good idea to accually have facts of WMD before thouands were killed. Minor technocality, kinda like “going to war with the army you have”.
And your compairson between WWII and the Iraqi invasion? At least in WWII we fought and triumphed over who attacked us, not some other country entirely.
Your asseratations are foolish at best. Better stick to cowering, you do that well.
Reply to 98, “WMD was there,” … hogwash!
We pay presidents to not make these kinds of mistakes, and when they do, rational voters get a new president.