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I Like Mike

by Darryl — Monday, 2/18/08, 10:16 pm

At one point during my first full day as a Republican yesterday, I was overcome by doubt. I had publicly announced my support for Mike Huckabee, but I realized that I didn’t have a good reason—as a Republican—to support him.

I mean, as a Democrat I’d have every reason to support Huckabee as the Republican Nominee. All national polls show him losing to both Hillary Clinton and Barak Obama. My own analyses of state head-to-head polls suggest that Clinton and Obama would beat Huckabee.

Now that I am a Republican I really should have some positive reasons to support the Huckster. So I examined his positions on many issues and realized I disagreed with almost all of them:

  • I find Huckabee’s positions on homosexuality antediluvian. I disagree with his opposition to civil unions, same-sex marriage, and adoption by same-sex couples. I disagree with the harebrained idea of a constitutional amendment defining “marriage” as a union between one man and one woman.
  • I am fundamentally opposed to Huckabee’s stance on abortion. In fact, I have voted for Republicans before over this very issue. While living in Pennsylvania in 1998, I voted for Sen. Arlen Specter instead of his “pro-life” Democratic opponent Bill Lloyd.
  • I cannot agree with Mike’s opposition to embryonic stem cell research.
  • I think Huckabee is a idiot for refusing to accept the findings of modern evolutionary theory (hell…even the Catholic Church has recognized for some 30 years that biological evolution is real and is not incompatible with Christianity).
  • I don’t agree with Huckabee at all on education—charter schools, display of the Ten Commandments in public schools, or “character education” in public schools. Give me a fucking break!
  • Huckabee’s promise to replace the income tax with a national sales tax is utterly ludicrous.
  • I don’t agree with Huckabee’s anti-gun control stance.
  • I oppose Huckabee’s opposition to a government-mandated universal health care system. And I think his ideas for isolating AIDS patients is fucked-up!
  • On immigration I cannot figure out where the Huckster stands—it looks like he is all over the place.
  • I find the Chuck Norris thing really, really creepy.
  • Huckabee is a Southern Baptist minister. Even though I was baptized at age nine as an American Baptist (and later became a Lutheran), Southern Baptists frighten me. They strike me as having a high proportion of radical extremists in their midst….
  • Finally, I think Huckabee’s ideas of changing the Constitution to be more God-friendly reveal a radical extremist side to the man that I find scary.

In fact, there are only a small number of issues that I agree with Mike on. I pondered my political paradox. And then I fretted…and I fretted some more, and I….

Then, in the midst of my fretting, it struck me!

I don’t have to use rational positions, logic, consistency, or ethics at all. I’m a Republican now!

Being a Republican means never having to say you’re sorry for eschewing logic, rationality, consistency or ethics in a political context. As a Republican, all I need is a positive emotional response to Huckabee—some emotional bond….

BassPlayers

That’s me (ca. 1984) and Mike. You see, we share the common bond of the bass. That’s the only connection I need.

So if you are a bass player or a guitar player, or play any instrument at all, you, too, can get behind Mike Huckabee this primary season. Maybe you like Chuck Norris movies…that’s a good reason, too.

And if you liked what a saxophone player from Hope, Arkansas did for America, just imagine what a Bass player from Hope could do!

Vote Mike!

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Open thread

by Goldy — Monday, 2/18/08, 3:17 pm

No, it’s got nothing to do with politics, but who doesn’t enjoy a really elaborate prank?

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Oh… so that explains Reichert’s crappy fundraising numbers

by Goldy — Monday, 2/18/08, 2:17 pm

Breaking news from Postman: apparently, Dave Reichert is running for Congress!

In other Congressional news, Reichert will get some big-name help to start his re-election fundraising. First Lady Laura Bush will headline an event Feb. 27th for Reichert in Medina.

So, the million bucks Reichert has raised thus far, and last August’s high-donor event with the First Lady’s husband… none of that counts as fundraising? Is Reichert challenging Mike McGavick for the WA state record for most campaign kickoffs?

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It’s not easy being green

by Goldy — Monday, 2/18/08, 7:01 am

“Most people know me as a football player, but I was also in social studies class.”

Introducing Brock Olivo, former University of Missouri football star, and newly minted Republican candidate for Missouri’s 9th Congressional District. Really.

During the last campaign cycle, local Republicans took to criticizing their opponents’ support from Progressive Majority as evidence of some sinister, out of district plot, but really, their most important contribution to any campaign is the kind of hands on candidate training that helps you avoid coming off as a total blathering doofus… like you know, Brock Olivo. (I think Camp Wellstone just found themselves a new training video on how not to conduct an interview.)

Speaking of which, Progressive Majority is bringing Wellstone Action’s Advanced Candidate and Campaign Management School to Federal Way, April 25-27, and a few spots are still available. Click here for more info.

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Taking the short bus to the primary

by Will — Sunday, 2/17/08, 8:07 pm

Joni Balter (surprise!) disses the caucus. Some of the goofs are just too dumb to let slide.

Taxpayers are spending almost $10 million for 19 delegates to be awarded in a race Republican Sen. John McCain has all but won; and so Democrats can stage a high-profile, show-and-tell event with no delegates forthcoming from the results.

And for us Democrats, the primary is a dumb waste of money. That’s why we don’t use it to award delegates. (There are, you know, constitutional issues too.)

For one thing, local election officials have a better record tallying votes. The best proof that the caucus system is full of holes came with the premature announcement by Republicans that McCain had won, while Mike Huckabee was still too close for that call to be made.

For fuck’s sake. Our caucus went off without (much of) a hitch, and our turnout was fifty times their turnout. Just because Luke Esser and his “short bussers” can’t count votes doesn’t mean the caucus method is broken.

Caucuses are quaint gatherings that are unwelcoming to the military,

Theoretically, yes. For all those Democrats serving in The Big Sandbox, getting together on a Saturday to discuss politics can be a tough one. Solution: bring the troops home.

the disabled

This would come as a big surprise to the disabled folks who attended my caucus. We had to negotiate some stairs, yes, but everything worked out ok.

and a variety of other voters who don’t want to sit around with their neighbors and hash out the decision.

Like Seattle Times columnists, apparently.

The Democratic race is very much alive and close. State Democratic Party Chairman Dwight Pelz knows voters will be furious with him when they realize they have to sign a pledge affirming they are Democrats to cast a primary vote — only to have the votes not count toward delegates.

Dwight Pelz could give a shit. He’s just protecting the integrity of our presidential nominating process (such that it is) by ensuring that Democrats (or people who want to sign a piece of paper saying they’re a Democrat) will have their votes count towards the selection of delegates.

But I am going to make a wild prediction. Our election system with caucuses and primaries is so convoluted and confusing, and the Republican tallying so troubling, that the parties will come to their senses by 2012 and abandon the caucuses.

My prediction is that in 2012, columnists will still be whining, ill-informed, about the nature of our caucus system.

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Gun dealer “blown away”

by Goldy — Sunday, 2/17/08, 11:00 am

Shit… this guy is fast becoming the Michael Dell of campus shootings…

The online gun dealer who sold a weapon to the Virginia Tech shooter said it was an unnerving coincidence that he also sold handgun accessories to the man who killed five students at Northern Illinois University.

Eric Thompson said his Web site sold two empty 9 mm Glock magazines and a Glock holster to Steven Kazmierczak on Feb. 4, just 10 days before the 27-year-old opened fire in a classroom and killed five before committing suicide. Another Web site run by Thompson’s company also sold a Walther .22-caliber handgun to Seung-Hui Cho, who killed 32 people in April on the Virginia Tech campus before killing himself.

“I’m still blown away by the coincidences,” Thompson said Friday. “I’m shaking. I can’t believe somebody would order from us again and do this.”

Yeah… because who’d ever imagine that a hand gun might be used for shooting people? What are the odds?

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Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water

by Goldy — Sunday, 2/17/08, 7:41 am

With President Bush’s job approval ratings consistently hovering around 30-percent, the standard Republican retort is that the ratings of the Democratic controlled Congress are even lower. Of course, there are two parties in Congress, and so it begs the question whether voters are a bit more discerning in attributing responsibility for their profound sense of disappointment…

According to the latest USA Today/Gallup poll, conducted Feb. 8-10, 2008, only 41% of adults likely to vote this November say they would support the Republican candidate running in their congressional district. Fifty-five percent say they would vote for the Democratic candidate.

The current 14-point margin in favor of the Democrats among likely voters is one of the highest Gallup has seen in recent years, along with two others late in the 2006 campaign.

Of course the election is still a long way off, and that margin could fluctuate wildly between now and November, but a similar result during the final days of the campaign would almost surely predict significant Democratic pickups in the House. And with Democrats holding substantial advantages in both voter enthusiasm and party identification (the Republicans lowest score in 20 years,) a second wave election remains a definite possibility.

One of the knocks against Darcy Burner we’ve frequently heard from concern trolls and self-soothing Reichertphiles is that if she couldn’t ride the big blue wave to victory in 2006, she doesn’t stand a chance against the two-term incumbent in 2008, an analysis that purposefully ignores a host of factors working in her favor the second time around. Near parity in name ID, a widening fundraising advantage, shifting suburban demographics, presidential year turnout and potentially long coattails emanating from the top of the ticket all lead me to believe that with or without a wave, Burner will be in a significantly stronger position in November than she was during her 2006 nail biter. And now it seems likely that she’ll have a second chance to ride that wave.

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HorsesAss becomes an official instrument for joining the Washington State Republican Party!

by Darryl — Saturday, 2/16/08, 10:35 pm

Over the approximately three years I have participated in the comment threads at Horses Ass, I’ve frequently been called a Democrat. And my typical response has been something like, “Actually I am not a Democrat. When I have lived in states that require registration by party, I have always refused—even to extent of being excluded from voting in primaries.” It’s true. I’ve never joined the Democrats—even though it is obvious that my political sensibilities and sympathies are closely allied with the Democrats.

This explains, in part, why I didn’t participate in the Democratic caucus. I didn’t participate in the Republican “caucus” either. In order to participate, the Democrats wanted me to “consider myself a Democrat” and the Republicans wanted me to be “a member of the Republican Party.”

But there was more to my non-participation. The fact is, I’d be equally happy with either Clinton or Obama as the Democratic nominee, so I had little reason to attend the Democratic caucus. I considered caucusing for Mitt Romney, but the bastard surrendered to terrorism while terrorizing his own supporters earlier that week. So I sat out that one, too.

Over the last week I’ve had a change of heart. I am ready to sign up for a party, for the first time in my life. And given how the Washington state Republicans are in shambles…I think they need me. Really. Yeah…maybe I’ll change my mind in a few days, but right now, I think the Republicans really need me, if only to boost their numbers. So I’m joining the Republicans and I’ll at least contribute half a vote to their primary on Tuesday.

I’m supporting Mike Huckabee. Given that McCain’s “victory” last Saturday was little more than a decree from Boss Esser, I think Mike Huckabee is entitled to a decree on Tuesday that arises from some sort of numerical system that proportionately reflects the make-up of the party faithful (like, um…me!).

I strongly encourage you to do the same thing. Sure…there will be the shame and humiliation of signing an oath that you are a Republican. And you might even feel like you’re lying a little bit. But, these days, the very act of lying pretty much fully qualifies you to be a card carrying Republican! Imagine the great opportunities in being a Republican…like, serving as a Research Assistant on Lori Sotelo’s Voter Suppression Squad™.

Think of your new membership as a trial subscription…. If you find it causes odd changes in your behavior, attitudes, or physiology like, say, a new-found desire to have sex in public toilets, or an unexplainable urge to knock your mother to the floor, or perhaps being turned on by falafel as a shower sex toy, then all you need to do is renounce your membership. Experiment over.

Hell…the trauma and uncontrolled trembling associated with casting your first ballot as a member of the Republican Party may be enough to cause an instant renunciation. If it induces vomiting, renounce immediately and completely; see a doctor.

How do you join the Republicans? Well…don’t go to the Washington State Republican Party web site. You won’t find any instructions on how to join there. That pretty much means you can join any way you want. The usual methods should work—kill a member of an endangered species, test drive a Hummer, drag a disadvantaged member of society down the road behind your pick-up truck, join the Ted Nugent fan club, shoot your neighbor’s dog…. If those methods are too much work, there is an easier way: leave a comment below stating that you are a member. Or, use an even easier method: simply do nothing except sign that poll-book or absentee ballot envelop declaration for Tuesday’s primary election. The WSRP explains (my emphasis):

You are eligible to participate in your local Republican precinct caucus if you are a registered voter in that precinct, show up at the caucus location at 1 p.m. on Saturday, Feb. 9th, and sign a declaration indicating that you are a member of the Republican Party and have not and will not participate in the 2008 precinct caucus or convention system of any other party. It is not necessary for you to have previously declared that you are a member of the Republican Party.

If it works for the caucus, it works for the primary.

But what if you already participated in the Democratic caucus? Can you then vote in the Republican primary? The real answer is YES, although it is sure hard to tell from this piece in yesterday’s Olympian:

“What we’re telling people is just be honest,” said Pat McCarthy, Pierce County auditor. “You need to know that when you sign that oath you’re adhering to the statement of the oath.”

Or else … what?

“I’m not quite sure,” she said.

In fact, no one is, but everyone seems to have an answer that sounds plausible.

“It’s against the law,” said Joanie Deutsch, a spokeswoman for the Secretary of State’s office. Deutsch dialed up RCW 29.19, relating to primaries, before determining that such acts constitute voter fraud.

But ask Nick Handy in the elections division of the Secretary of State’s office and you get another perspective: It’s a violation of the law for which the law provides no sanction.

Translation: Yes, it’s illegal. But since there’s no punishment assigned to it, you conceivably could break that law with abandon and not get any flak.

Here’s another interesting part, Handy said. Since caucuses are party-run affairs, only the parties knows who went last Saturday.

Aside from the parties, that is. And they’re not sharing.

For the final word, Handy suggested asking Jeff Even, deputy solicitor general in the Attorney General’s office and an expert on the matter.

His take: It’s hypothetically legally binding.

It would be almost impossible to prosecute someone for voter fraud, perjury, or the gross misdemeanor of false swearing for pulling a switcheroo, Even said.

And so the question becomes, if the oath creates a crime that’s impossible to prove, prosecute or punish: Why write one in the first place?

“Most people would take an oath seriously,” Even said.

Hypothetically legally binding, my ass. In fact, there is nothing in the RCW or the WAC that prevents you from participating in a Democratic caucus and a Republican primary. It’s true that you would be lying to both Parties in doing so, but lying to both the Democrats and Republicans seems like the perfect rite of passage for becoming a Republican.

I’m not a lawyer…so consider my reasoning but come to your own conclusions. The relevant law is found in RCW 29A.56 (not RCW 29.19 as the spokeswoman for the Secretary of State supposedly “dialed up”). Also check out the appropriate portion of the WAC.

You will not find anything dealing with an unfaithful oath to a party in the primary. The core issue is whether a violated oath could result in second degree perjury (RCW 9A.72.030) or false swearing (RCW 9A.72.040a) charges. But the language (found in WAC 434-219-140) states

(3) Each registered voter desiring to participate in the presidential primary of a major party that requires a declaration shall subscribe to the declaration.

As Sam Reed was so kindly pointed out during the SignatureGathererGate in May of 2006:

Both perjury in the second degree and false swearing require the statement be made under an oath “required or authorized by law”. This is a term defined in the statute:

“An oath is “required or authorized by law” when the use of the oath is specifically provided for by statute or regulatory provision or when the oath is administered by a person authorized by state or federal law to administer oaths[.]”

Apparently, by WAC 434-219-140, even the desire to participate in a party’s primary requires one to make an oath to the party! More importantly, the word “subscribe” in legalese simply means to sign one’s name. In other words, the oath is to a party, but the legal requirement is simply a signature on the oath provided by the party. The oath itself is meaningless (except as a way to join the Republican Party) for another important reason: because it doesn’t conform to the legal requirements for an unsworn oath. RCW 9A.72.085:

Unsworn statements, certification.
Whenever, under any law of this state or under any rule, order, or requirement made under the law of this state, any matter in an official proceeding is required or permitted to be supported, evidenced, established, or proved by a person’s sworn written statement, declaration, verification, certificate, oath, or affidavit, the matter may with like force and effect be supported, evidenced, established, or proved in the official proceeding by an unsworn written statement, declaration, verification, or certificate, which:

(1) Recites that it is certified or declared by the person to be true under penalty of perjury;

(2) Is subscribed by the person;

(3) States the date and place of its execution; and

(4) States that it is so certified or declared under the laws of the state of Washington.

The certification or declaration may be in substantially the following form:

“I certify (or declare) under penalty of perjury under the laws of the State of Washington that the foregoing is true and correct”:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(Date and Place) (Signature)

This section does not apply to writings requiring an acknowledgement, depositions, oaths of office, or oaths required to be taken before a special official other than a notary public.

Finally, as Nick Handy points out, there are no provisions written into law to punish people who sign the oath but violate it.

All this is simply academic for me, since I didn’t participate in the Democratic caucus, and the very act of writing this post is my way of joining the Washington state Republican Party. I can sign in good conscience.

You can become an Insta-Republican too. It’s easy. Simply say so in the comment thread. Or sign that declaration on your ballot and mail it in.

And vote for Mike Huckabee—because real change comes out of joking about razor blades in each hand in a nice warm tub!

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Government services? Who needs ’em?

by Will — Saturday, 2/16/08, 4:35 pm

Don’t get in an accident in Prosser:

Ambulance response in three lower Yakima Valley towns may take twice as long if money doesn’t show up soon.

It’s a nice country, Central Washington. I like to visit, but I think the next time I drive out there, it’ll be in a borrowed ambulance. You know, so I don’t die waiting for one of the local ones.

The publicly funded Prosser Memorial Hospital owns Emergency Medical Services, he only ambulance program responding to 911 calls in the Grandview, Prosser, Mabton area. But hospital CEO Jim Tavary says they need public money by March 15 or the ambulance service may be cut back in a business decision.

Nine-one-one: I file it under “government services I don’t use but am glad I pay for,” right along with meat inspectors and the 82nd Airborne.

If there isn’t an influx of money, the hospital plans to reduce services by 70 percent starting May 1 — closing a station in Grandview and laying off employees. That will raise response times in emergencies.

But who cares, right? Like the GOP says, practice some goddamn personal responsibility. If you’re having a coronary, it’s your responsibility to swallow two aspirin and drive yourself the 30 miles to the hospital.

The ambulance program has faced a $425,000 shortfall since 2006 when government Medicare reimbursements were restricted. Voters in the hospital district also rejected a levy increase last November.

Ultimately, if folks don’t vote for the levy, it’s their own damn fault. Sure, their taxes are lower (better business climate!), but what’s that worth to you if you die waiting for emergency help?

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Open Thread

by Will — Saturday, 2/16/08, 12:55 pm

Seattle Untimely explains the WGA strike (which ended recently) using video games:

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Parties have rights too, you know

by Will — Saturday, 2/16/08, 10:00 am

Ryan Blethen says that Democrats should give up their constitutional right to freedom of association because it inconveniences his wife.

My wife’s frustration with the caucus and primary are emblematic of many who are sitting out this round of voting. The logistics of caucusing did not work for her on a Saturday with two kids at home and me out of town. She will not vote in the primary because the ballot requires her to sign a party oath.

First: Hire a babysitter. Second: It’s not unreasonable for a political party to insist that the people who participate in their nominating process actually be, at least nominally, members of that political party.

If the parties cared about democratic input from an energized public they would scrap the Tammany Hall caucus for the presidential primary, which the voters passed into law in 1988.

That’s really one of the more dumb things I’ve read in a while. I saw no party bosses at my caucus, no one telling anyone how to vote. All I saw were excited, energized Democrats expressing their presidential preference.

What this state needs is party registration at the polling place. We could do away with a caucus and just vote, but I’m sure some folks are turned off by the icky thought of actually having to register for a party.

Even if we do all of this, I get the feeling that Blethen (and others) would still bitch and moan.

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Open Thread

by Darryl — Saturday, 2/16/08, 12:09 am

Images from the Washington caucuses:

(These and some eighty other media clips from the past week in politics are now posted at Hominid Views.)

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Well what do you expect from the 419th most powerful man in the House?

by Goldy — Friday, 2/15/08, 8:16 pm

So how much weight does Rep. Dave Reichert carry with his Republican colleagues? Well, you know Rep. Jo Bonner… the guy they gave that coveted Appropriations seat to…?

On Feb. 11, Bonner publicly endorsed Airbus over Boeing for the contract to replace the Air Force’s aging fleet of air refueling tankers.

So not only doesn’t Reichert get the pork seat he needs “now”, they give it to someone who just 3 days before publicly endorsed sucking pork out of Reichert’s district. Um… what was that the Seattle Times wrote in endorsing Reichert in 2006?

His goal should be to expand his influence and be a stronger voice for change.

Hey Frank… how’s that working out for you?

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Friday Afternoon Roundup

by Lee — Friday, 2/15/08, 5:22 pm

Here are a few interesting items from this week:

Travel show host Rick Steves is helping to launch an initiative to get more people talking about this country’s marijuana laws, which he’s found in his travels to be incredibly counterproductive compared to how it’s dealt with in other countries. The 30-minute video he produced is available to Comcast Digital Cable On Demand subscribers and will hopefully also be shown on some of the local networks in the state. Scott Morgan and Dominic Holden have more.

With the help of The Daily Show, Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA) demonstrates the complete uselessness of the Senate by being more concerned over the destruction of taped football practices than over the destruction of CIA interrogation tapes because the Patriots beat the Eagles in the Super Bowl a few years back. And speaking of New England, Congress, and sports, the only Republican Congressman left in all of New England right now is Christopher Shays, whose district is the closest one in those 6 states to New York City. Now, because of his statements on Roger Clemens, New York City sports radio hosts Mike and the Mad Dog are going after him and trying to help his Democratic opponent, Jim Himes.

Yesterday’s tragedy at Northern Illinois University is being explained to us as a completely normal young person who just stopped taking his medications. Why is it that before we had these medications at all, we didn’t have people going on mass murder sprees all the time? There seems to be something very odd about how we view mind-altering drugs as being one of two extremes – those that make you crazy when you take them and those that make you crazy when you stop taking them.

And finally, I think this is what you get when you elect a president who spent much of the early 80s getting balls-out wasted and playing Space Invaders.

This is an open thread.

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Top Ten Darcy

by Goldy — Friday, 2/15/08, 1:36 pm

Whenever we post anything on the race between Darcy Burner and Dave Reichert for WA’s 8th CD, my comment thread fills up, almost without exception, with nasty trolls belittling Burner and her chances this November. But yesterday’s posts were different. Only one comment out of 50 was even remotely trollish, and even at that expressed an uncharacteristic air of resignation…

So I’m going to have to endure at least 2 years of Dumbass Darcy. Yuck.

Now perhaps our trolls are just hopeless romantics, and as such were too busy serenading their sweethearts on Valentines Day to spew their usual bile into the threads. Nah… that can’t be it. No, I’m guessing that despite their rabid readership of this blog they claim to hate, and their obvious dislike of all things both Darcy and Democratic, that air of resignation is real — for even the whackiest of wingnuts can occasionally sense reality creeping up on them, and man, reality doesn’t look too good for the folks on the other side right now.

The typical defense of Reichert has always been an attack on Burner, but the trolls seem to be losing the heart even for that… and why shouldn’t they, as Reichert’s vulnerabilities as a candidate continue to be exposed outside the careful coddling of a Republican majority? But even more discouraging to local R’s must be the dawning realization that Burner isn’t a one hit wonder, and that her 2008 campaign is gonna be at least as competitive as her come from nowhere challenge in 2006.

Reichert’s fundraising numbers suck; he’s lazy and arrogant and unaccustomed to putting the kind of work into campaigning expected in swing districts, even of incumbents. We all know that. But Burner continues to impress, establishing herself as one of only a handful of Democratic challengers to achieve superstar status amongst both netroots activists like me, and the DC establishment.

“Dumbass Darcy”…? Not so much. Indeed according to Congressional Quarterly, Burner has made the list of Top Ten challengers from either party in both total receipts ($874,000 for 7th place) and cash on hand ($607,000 for 5th place.) And she’s one of only four Democrats to make it onto both lists. And, she’s done all that while garnering over 88% of her money from individual contributors (compared to only 59% for Reichert.)

It’s gonna be a tough reelection for Reichert… and even the trolls are starting to admit it.

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HA Commenting Policy

It may be hard to believe from the vile nature of the threads, but yes, we have a commenting policy. Comments containing libel, copyright violations, spam, blatant sock puppetry, and deliberate off-topic trolling are all strictly prohibited, and may be deleted on an entirely arbitrary, sporadic, and selective basis. And repeat offenders may be banned! This is my blog. Life isn’t fair.

© 2004–2025, All rights reserved worldwide. Except for the comment threads. Because fuck those guys. So there.