I’ll be on the air with Kirby Wilbur, KVI-570, tomorrow morning (Thurs.) at 8 AM to discuss I-912, the “no new gas tax” initiative. Hope I don’t bore the audience, but I plan to come armed with some facts… you know, like the fact that this isn’t actually a “new” gas tax, but rather an increase intended to help match revenues to inflation.
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I’ll be listening.
or maybe you should report that it is just another money grab by people who can’t budget well? since this state has been run by democrats for so long, and you are convinced that democrats have all the answers….then, why oh why, do we have these money problems?
Oh god no. Not that early in the morning. That screechy voice….argh!!! This is really a form of torture isn’t it Goldy?
Ghost… the gas tax is an excise tax, it is a fixed value per unit. Thus, in order to keep up with inflation, it must be raised over time. Even after the full 9.5 cents is added on, the tax as a percentage of the price of gas will still be at or below historic averages.
goldy……..that is right along the lines with “but people in europe pay alot more for gas”
it falls in the “so what?” category don’t you think? it’s still more money coming out of people’s pockets that won’t be spent well.
and your voice isn’t that bad.i rather enjoy it.
Xmasghost @ 5: “that is right along the lines with ‘but people in europe pay alot more for gas'”
No, it’s not. It’s just catching up to inflation. If your salary never changed, as time went on it would buy you less and less. You’d want a raise. So it is with the gas tax. As time has passed, the fixed cents-per-gallon tax buys less and less. We want more road work done, not less; so we have to raise the amount of the tax. Simple.
I think we should pass a law adjusting the fixed cents-per-gallon gas tax to match inflation each year. Then this periodic jump wouldn’t be necessary, and it would be clear that the tax isn’t being hiked up in real terms (real, inflation-adjusted dollars).
Or, just replace it with a separate sales tax on gas (note that as a straight replacement it would be higher than the standard state sales tax; probably closer to 12-13%).
I was going to leave some long explanation of why this tax is a cheap shot and the whole “emergency clause” aspect, but how do you argue with a bunch of people who WANT to pay more taxes. It wouldn’t matter what was being taxed. As long as the democrat party here in WA says we need the tax you sheeple are going to support it.
Taxmongers are the cause of inflation, Gas is tied to every good or service in this state. If cost of doing business goes up because of a “small fee” then so does the price of the product, anyone for a ten dollar gallon of milk?
We need to get this overtaxation crap in check with reality and real people’s budgets, most people can’t afford the side effects of this tax.
Toll the Viaduct, Toll the 520, raise the price of non-commuter bus fare to the near cost of that a single motorists pays. Truth is that those would easily pay for this dilemma, and may even pay for it faster with a much smaller jab to the average person’s pocket book.
We will push those crooks, those mercenaries back into the swamp.
david…and you will be the first one to bitch when groceries cost more. don’t you get it at all?
how did they spend the last gas tax money…..Hmmmmmmm?
there ya go……
besides…haven’t you been paying attention??? they will never never get away with it……the voters are pissed.
I think we should raise the gast Tax t0 $7.50 per gallon and spend it real mass transit. Like pneumatic tubes, Ã la The Jetsons.
http://zapatopi.net/pneumatic.html
Donnageddon@ 13….that is a good one. but please don’t give those yutz’s in seattle any ideas…….
christmasghost and Tools above,
Overtaxation, my ass. You know damn well that Washington falls right in the middle of in terms of states for tax burdens. We have it pretty good, and we have a damn nice state to live in (or now). The long-term problem is fucking antisocial losers who keep trying to gut the things that make this state worth living in.
What did that last gas tax hike go to fund? Well, it made up for some of the revenue loss from I695, so that we could at least keep some ferries running, it patched up some highways, allowed some road projects to be undertaken, provided city, town and county transportation funds, and provided some services to rural areas. But, we now have to make up for the rest of the revenue loss from I695 and front some real money to get a bunch of fairly important transportation projects done, and, of course, check revenue loss from inflation.
What the hell do you want? Dirt roads with rickshaw pullers as mass transit? Fucking redneck hicks!
Gold,
Nail that right wing cock face. I’ll try and call in if I can. Mr. Wilber is no match for me, I’ll destroy him like I have in the past.
Winger O’Toole @ 9
You have no problem then with a dollar plus increase per gallon from the oil companies but you do have a problem with the government charging 9.5 cents with the support of the business community and some Republicans for fixing and expanding the roads.
Really thinking things out…
Tell you what if you’re unable to part with your 2 ton plus gas hog then look here. This guy’s figured out a way to increase your gas mileage almost 20 percent.
Then you might not mind the tax increase so much.
One more thing, I fully support charging tolls on big expensive gold-platers.
first he says…..”The long-term problem is fucking antisocial losers who keep trying to gut the things that make this state worth living in.”
and then this regular rocket scientist finishes with the ever-classic and bigoted comment…..
“Fucking redneck hicks!
Comment by dj— 6/29/”
wow….and here i thought all anti-social losers had anger problems. i guess that rumor was true.
Comment on #17.
Winger, if you really want to think things out you should realize that the oil companies don’t set the price of oil. It is set on the world market via supply and demand factors. Ever start to think about the rapid growth of countries like China and India and what that does to the world demand for oil? The only way to keep prices low when demand increases is to increase supply…oops, that’s almost impossible thanks to the well intentioned but misguided restrictions on oil exploration/drilling. In the short run, the tax is someting we have immediate control over but not the market price.
And yes, the oil companies do profit from the increased market price. They own a resource that is becoming more scarse reletive to demand. Just like the owner of property on lake Washington. But they can’t just set the price anymore than the property owner could.
Mark D
John @ 17
If we save and conserve gas doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the tax?
@ 21
I don’t think so. Everyone should be figuring out ways to conserve oil and gas. If not now, I’m convinced they’ll be pretty much forced to in the future and it won’t be government doing the forcing – it will be the “free market”.
Comment on #21 and #22.
You are correct All tools, if there was massive gas conservation, the projected revenue wouldn’t materialize. The reason why a gas tax is so popular among politicians is for the very reason that it is hard to conserve. Gas is a very “inelastic” good. People rely on it and will pretty much buy the same amount even with an increase in price. This is the reason why a gas tax is extremely regressive.
John, you are correct also in saying that the “free market” will force conservation. This is once oil is far too expensive to be practical. We aren’t there yet and the politicians know this. For the stated purposes of this particular tax all tools is correct. A measurable amount of conservation would defeat the purpose by decreasing the amount of revenue generated.
John @ 22
I understand that, but it contradicts your fellow lefty’s reasoning for the tax. If we conserve gas that will earn us a larger tax on it, or it will get us a bigger tax on something else that everyone needs. It’s a never ending cycle that screws the rich and poor, and everything in between. Accountability for funds from the current tax coupled with a toll(use tax) on problem areas is the solution.
So called “progressives” that have actually studied Economics generally hate a gas tax because it does hit the poor/working class particularly hard. “Progressives” that don’t know anything about Economics tend to like a gas tax believing that it will “get people out of those gas guzzling SUVs.” Problem is, most people with gas guzzling SUVs can afford the increase while the guy driving the ’85 Honda Civic can’t.
This doesn’t even account for the general rise in prices for goods associated with increased shipping costs due to a gas tax increase.
A well-off person can afford paying an additional $5 at the grocery store if prices rise due to shipping cost increases. The poor person may really need that extra $5.
Mark D @25,
You know, it irks me a little when righties lecture me about the regressive nature of excise taxes. You’re right… excise taxes like the gas tax are the most regressive tax we have. But until you put your money where your mouth is on this issue, and support a state income tax, comments like yours are all hot air as far as I’m concerned.
We’ve got this incredibly, shitty, unfair and regressive tax structure… but it’s the tax structure we have. Help me change it, and I’ll be all over slashing the gas tax in return.
I have to agree with you to some extent, however, a gas tax is almost the most regressive tax you can come up with of all excise taxes. You may as well start taxing day-care but not nanny services.
Tolls, plate tab fees based on true auto value, or gas milage would be much less regressive.
I don’t know why you are irked that I simply pointed out how truly misguided a gas tax increase is.
I’m with you on an income tax as long as it was coupled with a constitutional amendment that there would be no more sales tax at all.
mark d @25…you hit the nail right on the head.
and goldy…so more taxes would be more fair to everyone? a state income tax? have you heard the rumor that washington is a boom or bust state? well, it’s true.
the way things are going in a couple of years you guys will have to be taxing the bums in seattle because they will be the only ones still living here.
how about a national sales tax and nothing else. how about a flat tax and nothing else? how about not taxing anyone who makes less than X ,the elderly, and perhaps providing jobs for others i.e. small business owners.
you want progressive? get the government’s hands out of our pockets. do you really think most of our elected officials know where the food in the grocery store comes from much less what it’s like to actually work for a living??????
“But until you put your money where your mouth is on this issue, and support a state income tax, comments like yours are all hot air as far as I’m concerned.”
The only hot air in here is that coming off of the bullshit that you say is our only option. The other option is staring you in the face, but you are refusing to see it. Toll the viaduct those who don’t like the toll will take an alternate rout to their office job, while those who have more money than time will pay it and not even bat an eye.
There is nothing progressive about a state income tax, if anything it is regressing from a democratic state to a social*st state.
christmasghost @ 19
No fucking way, that whole post was written with a smirk on my face.
So. . . any comments on the substance of post 15, or. . . .
Sorry about the “fucking redneck hicks” comment, but, you know, empirical evidence, and all that. . . .
dj….here’s some empirical eveidence for you. whenever a liberal is called on the carpet or challenged in any way the first thing out of their mouth is usually tainted with either a bigoted or homophobic comment. i find that very interesting………
Maybe we should have an excise tax on water. It’s a good that rich and poor alike find to be a necessity. Much like gas. We can charge $1 per gallon. It would also do some social good if we reduced water consumption. We almost had a drought here and we always here how we need to conserve water.
Seem’s crazy, but that’s about what the gas tax truly is. But it’s actually worse.
That should be “we always hear how we need…” I have an Economics degree…not English.
@ 29
Yes, O’Toole fixing this broken tax system is the best thing to do – it is a freaking mess and utterly unfair. If you’re a Republican, kick the asses of your politicians to reach across the ailse and do the right thing!
If a state income tax is so evil then why does that communist Bill Gates Senior support it while also supporting eliminating sales and B&O?
Tolling is only a partial solution to expensive projects like the 520 replacement. It cannot possibly make a dent in a viaduct tunnel and can’t be applied at all if the viaduct is just taken down and the seawall is fixed which in my opinion is the best option.
christmasghost @ 31
“here’s some empirical eveidence for you. whenever a liberal is called on the carpet or challenged in any way the first thing out of their mouth is usually tainted with either a bigoted or homophobic comment.”
Yawn. . . .
I am still waiting to see if you have an intelligent response to the substance of post 15.
Comment to #34
I just have to add. A graduated income tax isn’t by definition a “fair” one.
Comment on 35
Actually dj. If you look it up…and I really don’t want to right now, Washington has a pretty regressive tax system according to most progressive institutions that study such things…that’s the best response to post 15.
I can site Goldy’s comment at 26 for some reference.
@ 36
What’s unfair about it? The rich man benefits the most from this country why shouldn’t he pay a reasonable amount more. It’s not like he can’t afford it.
That being said, IMHO the richest man shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his income local, state, federal combined. In war time he should pay more (aren’t we at war by the way?).
Mark D @ 37
“If you look it up Washington has a pretty regressive tax system according to most progressive institutions that study such things…that’s the best response to post 15.”
I agree completely that the WA tax structure is regressive (I’ve read the Gates Commission report). I have spoken out against the current tax system and have supported a state income tax to replace it. I view the current gas tax as triage for I-695. After the triage, I sincerely help that politicians can work together to fix the system.
That being said, it is not an answer to post 15. The state tax burden for most Washingtonians is modest. I agree that the rich are under paying and the poor are picking up the tab for them. That sucks, but we are not leading the pack by any means. People who scream and whine about taxes being too high either don’t know the facts or are being intentionally misleading.
John, are you kidding? Some people make more because they work harder. Let’s say you work 40 hrs per week and earn $30,000 per year. You aren’t taxed on the $$ you earn from $0 to $20k. From $20k to $30k you are taxed at 15% on that $10k. And you have a co-worker that takes overtime. He ends up working an average of 50 hours per week earns $40,000 per year and is not taxed from $0 to $20k taxed at 15% at $20k to $30k and then taxed at 25% from $30k to $40k. He has worked harder, yet his hard work has effectively been punished by being taxed at a rate 10% higher. It may be fair if the rate stayed at 15% but that’s not what happens with a graduated rate.
As an aside, you should check out how high the top marginal income tax rates were in the 50s and 60s. JFK actually lowered the top rate from some 90% to around 70%. Who would work for that? Thing is almost almost no one did. We are at war, however, sometimes reducing tax rates actually increases revenue. You could make an arguement that reducing taxes in a time of war is more productive.
dj….i’m good, but not that good. it’s pretty hard to come up with a brilliantly intelligent response to something that is less than intelligent.what you said made no sense to anyone in the real world…it was rather like a long winded excuse for why the democrats/politicians have not made washington the utopia they so often promise.
it’s a bit like hearing kids ask “are we there yet?”
there really isn’t a good answer is there?
How nice to have Big Business and Big Labor agree on something! And something a number of republicans support as well as democrats!
Goldy, this has been a good post and sorry I’ve commented so much. If brevity is the sign of wit, I’m obviously in trouble. LOL
Mark.
@40
What did I just say? Something about 1/3? If rich guy earns 1 million in a year, nobody going to need to throw a bake sale for him if he pays 333 grand in taxes.
While we’re talking about communists like Bill Gates Senior, I’m a reminded of another communist called Ike Eisenhower who scoffed at lowering taxes on the rich because we were in the midst of a little thing called the “cold war”. Although he took that attitude more out of spite for the out of control Pentagon beaureaucrats. So then Kennedy lowered taxes on the rich. Fine – as long as the government lives within its means – I’ve got no problem with it.
being said, IMHO the richest man shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his income local, state, federal combined. In war time he should pay more (aren’t we at war by the way?).
Comment by John— 6/29/05 @ 5:50 pm
John- what do you see are top five main functions of the federal government? Just curios. I can see defense probably would not be number one.. or would it? I do agree if someone is taxed over 1/3 for federal,state and local taxes it is excessive.
christmasghost @ 41
Yes, I see your point. I’ll try very simple sentences and baby steps for you. Perhaps you can then provide an insightful responses . . .
1. You stated @ 2 that the tax was a money grab.
1a. The State of Washington ranks 24 out of 50 states for tax burden.
1b. Initiative 695 (I-695) defunded transportation in this state. The gas tax increase compensates, in part, for that revenue loss.
2. You stated @ 5 that the money will not be spent well.
2a. Washington was just ranked as one of the best managed states.
2b. Is there any good evidence to suggest that “the money will not be spent well?”
3. You asked “how did they spend the last gas tax money?”
3a. It made up for some of the revenue loss from I-695
3b. It helped keep at least some ferries running.
3c. It was used for highway repairs.
3d. It funded some road projects.
3e. It provided cities, towns and counties with transportation funds and provided some services to rural areas.
3.comment.a The current gas tax hike makes up for the rest of the revenue loss from I695.
3.comment.b The current gas tax hike provides funds for a bunch of fairly important transportation projects.
3.comment.c The current gas tax hike compensates from revenue loss by inflation.
question.a Do you prefer dirt roads for our state transportation infrastructure?
question.b Is it your preference to have rickshaws constitute our major mass transportation system?
2b. Is there any good evidence to suggest that “the money will not be spent well?”
Until audits are done… no one really know? How many of you donks out there signed I-900? Until independant performance and financial audits are performed you should assume that all money will “not be well spent”.
John @ 34
“If a state income tax is so evil then why does that communist Bill Gates Senior support it while also supporting eliminating sales and B&O?”
If you get rid of B&O it makes him more money and therefore he doesn’t mind paying income tax(less over all tax), It’s not that he is a goodwill embassador.
#40 John…in my example..neither person paid anywhere near 1/3 of their income in taxes. But was it fair? Would it be fair for someone only making $10k per year to pay $3,200 in income tax?
Also, in my example, person A has an average tax rate of 5%. $1,500 in tax on $30,000. While person B has an average rate of 10%. $4,000 in tax on $40,000. He’s taxed twice as much for working 25% more than person A. This example isn’t really that unrealistic either.
Comment on #34,48. The very wealthy are helped by an income tax because most of their compensation is paid in forms other than income. Once you have wealth, you aren’t too worried about income tax. Just those trying to become wealthy are.
@45
What does the preamble to the Constitution say? Defense is in there but it’s not the first thing mentioned. Wonder why? Does two bodies of water called the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean mean anything to you?
@48
So all his shilling for the income tax just amounts to a tax break for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? Do they have to pay B&O? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
@49
Absolutely not. Again, in my reckoning no-one in our society should have to pay more than a third of their income in taxes to support all levels of government – in peacetime. That’s where you start in determining “fairness”. It’s common sense. People of lesser means of course pay a much smaller percentage.
dj….oh, thanks for the baby steps. so i’ll do the same for you.
R-E-A-L-I-T-Y
how are the roads now? gee…i guess that money wasn’t spent so well or you wouldn’t have such a long whiney list of honey-do’s for the state tax payers, would you?
John, common sense would say that people with lesser means would pay a lesser amount not necessarily a smaller percentage.
Also, you may not buy that the super wealthy like an income tax because it actually benefits them but you may want to look into it. If you have $300 million in securities, cash, REITS, trusts, etc. and make $1 million a year in income which portion of your money would you rather pay a higher rate on?
Also, it would be nice if you didn’t have to pay sales tax on that yacht or Bentley.
@54
Which is why I’m not necessarily in favor of dropping the sales and B&O tax. I’d like to see them the lowest in the nation but not eliminated. This would take the edge off of the income tax and smooth out the volatility. I don’t want to see a situation like in Oregon where they envy our sales and B&O.
However, if there’s one I’d have to drop it would be the sales tax but that’s only because of the economic distortions on the border with Oregon.
The yacht and Bentley are neither here nor there. How many yachts and Bentleys can a rich guy indulge in?
John, thanks for the fun discussion.
I know the Bagwan Rashneesh (sp?) in Oregon had a fleet of Rolls Royces. LOL
The yachts and Bentleys were just an example, when you spend $200 to $800k per year on stuff (and I know people who do) you’d love to see the sales tax go. Especially if your $$ doesn’t come from income but from investments.
Also, you know how taxes work. If the tax is there at all the propensity of government is to gradually increase rates. We’ll start with a decent income tax and small sales tax. Years from now we’ll have an oppressive income tax and sales tax right where it is now.
The business tax in Washington is extremely convoluted. It taxes gross receipts. You pay tax on $$ brought in even if your expenses were more. I noticed that Washington Mutual just decided to open their new 4,200 job processing facility in Texas. Wonder why that happened?
John, all that said, I do agree that no one should pay more than 1/3. Some people pay 1/2 now with income tax, property tax, and sales tax.
@56
It hasn’t been that fun for me.. And it ends predictably. Any proposal for a reasonable taxation system that is spread fairly and evenly over the economy is met with the same tired argument of “years from now we’ll have an oppressive income tax”, etc., which of course means you have no intention of doing anything short of gutting public education and the tattered remains of the social safety net.
If something’s broken, don’t whine, fix it. If you’re not engaged in the system that’s supposed to serve your interests then you shouldn’t be surprised when it turns on you.
Okay…you should study America before the 1930s, from WWII until the 60s, and after the mid 1960s as far as taxes go. In most cases we had better “safety nets” but private ones. We have spent trillions since the mid ’60s on the “war on poverty” but poverty has grown. We are spending much more on education but the results are worse. In Washington DC we spend almost $10k per student with some of the worst results in the nation. As a nation, we spend more per student than any other nation, however, we are ranked well below most industrialized nations in academic preformance.
Today we don’t have a safety net. I’m happy to help provide a safety net. Today we have an entitlement net. Throwing more $$ at government programs hasn’t worked. If you don’t like the US example, look at the countries where it’s all done by the government and see if you’d like us to try that.
As far as a reasonable taxation system, I’d go for a flat income tax both state and national. With the income tax applied to the gain on investments. No deductions.
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I gues it would depend on how you see it. Here is how I see it:
establish Justice- establish judiciary,legislative and executive branch of gov for lawmaking and enforcing.
insure domestic Tranquility,- establishment of states, national guard–made sure the states got along.
provide for the common defense,- DOD,Navy,Marines,Army-Taxes
promote the general Welfare- (Liberals get confused on this one)
Promote happiness,prosperity,health and well being to ALL people
secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity- In short secure freedom for ourselves and our kin.
I dont see social programs as part of the preamble thats for sure.
Also, I would exempt the first $10-15kk from taxes per individual.
And, you couldn’t have your taxes withheld from your paycheck. You would have to write a check to the IRS or State each month or quarter for what you owed.
RUFUS, Liberals I know have actually quoted that to me as “‘Provide’ for the general welfare. Big difference.
62
Here is more clarity on this issue
Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [
Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.
Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.
I don’t buy that “safety net” history lesson. If they were so good then Hoover would have had a second term.
I don’t buy the trillions thing either. Not all that much was spent on what Johnson rolled out as the “war on poverty”. More was spent on AFDC, HUD and food stamps. Now a lot of that has been “reformed” starting with Reagan and on up through Clinton and Bush II and you’re surprised there’s more poverty? Have any real figures?
As for education almost all “industrialized nations” include the “the countries where it’s all done by the government”. So what’s the solution? Standardized tests like the WASL where teachers are forced to coach students to pass the tests otherwise lose their jobs? NCLB is proving to be a disaster even in the reddest of states like Utah.
As for the “entitlement net” look how well Bush’s proposals for Social Security have flown. His sparkling delivery across sixty whistlestops did little to change minds over that so-called abomination of income redistribution.
The flat tax is utterly unfair as applied in a revenue-neutral scenario. The goal of flat taxers is to gut non-defense discretionary spending period.
The wealthy have benefited from everthing this country has to give and it’s only right they should contribute a proportionately greater share of their surplus to even the playing field. The last thing we need in this country is an entrenched aristocracy. We have too much of that already. To paraphrase another communist Warren Buffet, “there’s been a class war and my class has won.”
61
Ditto– I would not be if only people who paid taxes were allowed to vote for representatives… but since there is one vote per person and everyone can vote then most everybody should pay some taxes and it should be out of their pocket not their paycheck. Only in extreme cases should you not pay any taxes. It is all about fiscal responsibility.
John– I dont agree on your issues… but there is a way for liberals and constitutionalist to exist. The welfare programs you are fond of can be implemented on the state level where they should be. The taxes also should be collected on the local level. That way you can have your liberal haven states. It wouldnt last long since most of the productive people would move to freer states and would be bankrupt within a genration or two. Hey it a free world… at least it should be in the United states.
RUFUS @ 47
“Until audits are done… no one really know? “
Not so. There are many, many ways we find out about badly spent money without formal external audits. There is no shortage of people both within government and from outside of government pointing out specific examples of waste in governments. Audits can help (sometimes, but they are no guarantee–e.g. Arthur Anderson), and during the last legislative session an audit law was passed that will contribute to in-place mechanisms. The “independent audits will solve all problems” is an exceedingly naïve stance!
Washington is not found to be one of the best managed states because there is lots of waste!
christmasghost @ 53
“how are the roads now? gee…i guess that money wasn’t spent so well or you wouldn’t have such a long whiney list of honey-do’s for the state tax payers, would you?”
Are you really that stupid? (Please, tell me you are being willfully stupid).
Very simply: Revenue was lost in 1999. Last gas tax increase was insufficient to completely compensate. Inflation eats away at revenue requiring regular hikes of gas excise tax. Roads suffered. Any questions?
See? That is not so hard to understand, is it?
DJ
Is it too much to ask that we treat government the same way we treat big business. Big business must have an independant audit done 4 time a year! Most people just want it once a year for government. Audits will not solve all problems.. not at all. Audits will uncover most problems though. Only the taxpayers can solve the problems once uncovered. The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT. Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.
@ 60
I count social programs like Social Security as part of “promoting” the general welfare.
Social Security means seniors don’t have to freeze to death in a cardboard shack going hungry.
By the way my grandfather was a scoffer of Social Security – didn’t want to pay the payroll tax so he worked under the table all his life. So when he went to the SS office – lo and behold – he couldn’t collect – so he married someone for her SS money.
@67
Well Rufus, Idaho is just across the border. Don’t want to go there? Do they have an income tax?
“but there is a way for liberals and constitutionalist to exist.”
Yeah, but that requires moving all the conservatives to Iceland.
@72
I would call them anything but “conservative” and Iceland is too good of a place for them.
dj…..and why was revenue lost in 1999? i would love to see you explain that without using the truth……..
RUFUS @ 70
“Audits will uncover most problems though.”
Nope. Most problems are uncovered by ordinary means like budget reports (esp. going over budget!), low-level whistle blowers, legislative inquiries, ordinary internal audits, and management reports. Performance audits will occasionally find ways of making things better.
“Only the taxpayers can solve the problems once uncovered.”
Also, completely untrue and reveals to me that you really don’t understand anything about state government. Voters vote for elected officials; they do not solve performance problems within units (most of which are small and isolated problems anyway). Performance problems are almost always solved within an agency, usually by simple procedures.
“The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT.”
This is propaganda. There is no evidence that an auditing agency that is independent within a government is any less effective than a 900 type independent system.
“Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.”
You mean relative to the audits passed in the last legislative session? If you think so, you are wrong. There is not a shred of evidence that the system just enacted is any less effective than the 900 system. People telling you it is better are making stuff up without a scrap of evidence. Don’t be so easily fooled! Demand evidence when people make such “too good to be true” claims!
christmasghost @ 74
“and why was revenue lost in 1999″
Because the legislature repealed the car tab tax (as a response to I-695).
christmasghost @ 74
“and why was revenue lost in 1999″
Oh. . . and I forgot to mention. . . $1.00 of gas tax collected in 1998 was only worth $0.98 by 1999. So that was another source of revenue loss in 1999.
The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT.”
This is propaganda. There is no evidence that an auditing agency that is independent within a government is any less effective than a 900 type independent system.
“Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.”
You mean relative to the audits passed in the last legislative session? If you think so, you are wrong. There is not a shred of evidence that the system just enacted is any less effective than the 900 system. People telling you it is better are making stuff up without a scrap of evidence. Don’t be so easily fooled! Demand evidence when people make such “too good to be true” claims!
How can you have any evidence when independant audits have never been implemented. You believe what the government tell you? Relying on internal audits is like rely on financial statement prepared by a corporation. All the information that you get off the government site is all propaganda. DJ…all other donks.. why are your so against independant audits? If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. The repubs and independant cant claim that the information is tainted on independant audits. You can show them how well this donk run state is running. You dont need to reply.. I know why.
I don’t buy that “safety net” history lesson. If they were so good then Hoover would have had a second term.
Obviously not since you dont believe in the constitution as it was originally written.
“Obviously not since you dont believe in the constitution as it was originally written.”
Written on Hemp I might add!
OK here we go, shades of I695
We just bought another automobile, a 1955 Packard Clipper. It will be married to 1955 plates as a classic for permanant registration:)
Point is though I was going through the old papers and I saw the 1993 registration. It was $47.95…. that is $50.00 for an old beater in pre I695! This is the “beater” that the poor was driving to get by. People said thatI695 saved the poor nothing! Eat this! This is reality hitting you in the face. In 1993 $20.00 was 35 lbs of ground beef on the table for the kids (I was there)…Thank You Tim Eyeman, once again!
Goldy:
“The KVI House Democrat.”
Sweet!
so… how’d it go?
RUFUS @ 78
“How can you have any evidence when independant audits have never been implemented.”
Exactly my point. People make up shit like “independent audits will save us 100’s of millions of tax dollars.” There is no evidence that audits (beyond the internal budgeting and auditing systems that the state has had in place for decades) will save us $100+ Million—especially given the increased costs involved. So, it is really simply bullshit pulled out of some propagandist’s ass to claim that “independent” audits (a la I900) will do anything whatsoever beyond what the legislature passed this year.
“You believe what the government tell you? Relying on internal audits is like rely on financial statement prepared by a corporation. All the information that you get off the government site is all propaganda.”
I don’t believe what many politicians tell me, that is true. However, almost all internal budgets information is accurate. BTW, this is true for businesses as well. The rare exceptions (like Enron) get big press, but really only account for a tiny fraction of businesses.
BTW: Why do you feel that the auditing legislation that just passed is less “independent” that I900? And how will audits be less likely to succeed under existing legislation? I’ve never gotten an I900 supporter to spell this out with any specifics.
“DJ…all other donks.. why are your so against independant audits?”
Sorry, I’m not a Democrat. Also, I am not particularly against “independent audits”—I believe we have just gotten them!
“If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about.”
Huh? They are going to audit me, too?
The repubs and independant cant claim that the information is tainted on independant audits.
Again, what evidence is there that the modifications that I900 makes to the just-passed legislation will make any difference whatsoever? Are you really so naive that you believe that “independent” auditors cannot be ineffective, lazy, inattentive, stupid, or even corrupt?
RUFUS, lay off the talk radio—your mind is being poisoned!
dj…has it crossed your mind yet that they didn’t “lose” revenue…they OVER SPENT????
you could give those monkeys in olympia 20 times the rate of inflation every year and they would still spend more. they are here to serve us…not the other way around.
christmasghost @ 85
has it crossed your mind yet that they didn’t “lose” revenue…they OVER SPENT????
I live in a reality-based world. I know that change occurs between appropriating fund and actually doing. It is a happy day when somebody estimates costs exactly. Likewise, some costs come from on-the-job discovery: so, you go to reshingle a roof and you find that the wooden support has started rotting (probably because some stupid-ass initiative defunded roof maintenance when the roof should have been reshingled).
As it happens, sometimes projects come in over budget. Sometimes under budget. If I did not see things going over budget occasionally, I would become deeply suspicious that the contract bidding was rigged and the contractors were skimming.
Will audits prevent projects from going overbudget? Perhaps some of them, but mostly auditors will be soaking up the productivity of employees who spend more of their time doing paperwork for, yet, another auditing system.
“you could give those monkeys in olympia 20 times the rate of inflation every year and they would still spend more. they are here to serve us…not the other way around.”
Oh. . . I’m sorry, my response above was based on an assumption that you wanted to have a serious discussion.
What can one say to a statement like that, except “You are a fucking idiot!”
I have an I-912 petition if you want to sign it.
dj….well, isn’t that your usual response to people that don’t agree with you?
no one could have a serious discussion with someone like yourself that is such a partisan that if the democrats in olympia were setting pre-schoolers on fire for laughs you would have a REALLY DAMN GOOD REASON WHY IT WAS A GOOD THING.
prove me wrong here….name something that a democrat has done in this state that you think is really wrong and they should be held accountable for it…..
perhaps patty murray singing the praises of osama bin laden, or jihad jim having tea with saddam…..just a couple of ideas for you……….
waiting waiting waiting………….
christmasghost @ 88,
“name something that a democrat has done in this state that you think is really wrong and they should be held accountable for”
Sure! Keep in mind, there were over 500 pieces of legislation in the last session. Most of them were no brainers and resulted in a near unamious votes. You and I would probabably agree on most of these things. This blog selects for things we disagree on (and gives us an opportunity to debate them).
Here is a couple of things that Democrats have done that I dislike:
1. Washington legislature cutting the car tab tax in 1999 REALLY pissed me off. They did not have to do so, since the initiative was snuffed out in court.
2. Cantwell voted in favor of authorization for Bush to go to war against Iraq. That REALLY pissed me off.
3. I am unhappy that the current legislature “fixed” the transportation funding crises by raising the gas tax, rather than a more progressive tax option, although I recognize and accept it as triage. I hope we get an income tax to (largely) replace other regressive taxes.
4. I am, in general, unhappy with the cuts to higher education by the state under the Democrats. The situation is so extreme that the UW is practically proposing to become a private university. I think that is unfair to people who have paid taxes for years and their Kids cannot get into the University.
dj…okay ,fair enough. BUT….where would you get the money for all those things in this state. i mean…in reality.this state is not exactly a big producer of anything.if you get your wish and there is an income tax here….there would be no one here that could pay it in less than five years. i know that everyone here loves the state and all that….my husband is a many generation native…..BUT it really just isn’t that special a place, especially to do business.or to live…i mean…people here can’t even DRIVE for god’s sake.you could put in all the roads you wanted and the fact that every other car you see has a dent and no one actually knows how to drive, much less over bridges or in traffic….that would undo any “good” done by putting in more roads. seattle is famous for what again? fish, a space needle that has been around for five seconds in the big scheme of things and really really rude people.
and i haven’t even touched on the aggressive super-entitled bums that attack you on the street.
there was a classic letter in the [i think] seattle times a few years ago from a high tech business owner from san francisco that wanted to relocate his company [and jobs] up here. but, after spending a week in seattle all he wanted to do was run screaming and he wrote a letter detailing what i, and alot of other people have already noticed……..people here are rude, obnoxious and entitled.
oh…and let’s not forget so lazy that you marvel at the mere fact that they are breathing on their own.
seattle is a joke waiting to really happen………and yes, that’s just my opinion. however my super liberal friend from santa cruz was so appalled after a weekend in seattle that all she kept saying was “i thought you were pulling my leg……”
there you go.
xmas @ 90
There is 26 billion (that’s billion with a B) worth of manufacturing in the Duwamish and most of the country’s fresh fish harvest comes into Ballard. Washington is headquarters to world’s largest software firm. Washington is no slouch in agriculture, timber and food processing.
I’ve driven two cars around here for years and I haven’t gotten dent yet.
People are rude here? Have you ever been to New York?
Let the pols put an income tax and reform package on table – if you don’t like it then tell us why. On the other hand, why bother, the pols could eliminate the Sales, B&O and cut your property tax in the process and you’d STILL complain you were being robbed.
yes…i have been to new york, many times.but, you know, new york is new york…..they are famous for rude. and they do it with style. whereas here….well,they are just lazy and rude.
hmmmm….world’s biggest software company…yup you’ve got me there alright. but in this case that’s like being famous for having the world’s biggest bankrobber living in town. i’m not a fan of gates or the way he does “business”…..and what i find truly fascinating are all the seattle liberals that bitch about corporate america and big oil but kiss gates’ ass. interesting moral quandry there, don’t you think?
so seattle is famous for fish and having the worlds’s biggest “big fish in a little pond”
wow….truly awe inspiring.
and agriculture??? heard of california????
I work for government and am responsible for implementing large capital projects. And I can tell you there is waste, it is waste that is forced into projects as “mitigation”. Have you seen the community demands for Brightwater (not mine)? They will add millions to a project serving an area which has pumped it’s sewage south for 20 years. Ever see the lid over I-90 on Mercer Island? That stretch of road set records for cost not because of state worker inefficiency but because of local commuity extortion. Everyone wants government effeicieny until they build it near them, then they want every cent of mitigation they can get.
92
I was born and raised in Seattle and I agree with you for the most part. The people dont bother me at all…their politics do. I could only wish that the politics around here was as “stand-offish” as the people are… but that is only a dream. I do have to admit that when the sun sets on Seattle there is probably no more beautiful place in the world… and I have been places. Too bad you can only see the sun 30-45 days out the year though.
DJ
I don’t believe what many politicians tell me, that is true. However, almost all internal budgets information is accurate. BTW, this is true for businesses as well. The rare exceptions (like Enron) get big press, but really only account for a tiny fraction of businesses.
So we should eliminate independant audits for business since almost all of them are telling the truth.. there is not need for them. All we need is an internal audit team and we can believe them. Dammit… and I was told in college that the SEC and the public at large depend on these audits to make financial decisions. All that money down the tubes. All that money wasted because they had to hire and outside public accounting firm when they could have produced them all along by their own people. Thats it.. how may out there will be will to sign and initiative to end independant audits of publicly traded corporations. This is a travesty…we need to do something!
rufus……..yes…seattle COULD be beautiful if it only figured out what “it” was. there is nothing so attractive as being who you really are.
alas….poor dirty old seattle has the world’s biggest identity crisis going on.
maybe they could just be famous for that? “we pretend to be new orleans, san francisco, new york and mostly DETROIT or terra haute on the sound……..”
xmas @ 96
What kind of a hermetically sealed suburban or x-urban hovel do you live in? Are you agoraphobic? Do you ever come out for fresh air and when you do is all you see is a landscape of dents in cars, poor public education (especially in Seattle), people who are rude or at least rude in your presence (for which you are eternally wondering why) or people who don’t exclaim , “how high?” whenever you snap “jump!”.
Are all those bad drivers Democrats? They must be because even though I’ve known Republicans to speak ill of one another (Dino Rossi being an egregious example), a corollary of the eleventh commandment must read, “thou shalt not accuse a fellow Republican of poor driving habits.”
Seattle is what it is dammit. Just like L.A., just like New York, just like San Francisco, just like any other place. Deal with it.
Washington state is what it is. The law of the land here is the GMA because the people voted it in and didn’t want Washington state to be another California.
And yeah Gates is a first class A-hole but he is what he is.. He built a fortune 500 company in spite of or maybe because of what he is. And I suppose you were all against the government trying bring him to heel. The biggest slammers of Gates are people I know who work for him or used to..
Why do you live here? Can you say anything positive about this place? Is there some other place you’d rather be?
If so, please for the grace of G*d, go there!
P.S.: I live in Seattle and I vote for Jim McDermott, know why? HE PISSES WINGERS OFF – unthinking people who wear orange, dance to the tune of a mad pied piper who blogs all day from a tony house off Greenlake and have nothing better to do than to accuse people of serious crimes by filling up spreadsheets with nonsense numbers and jumping to conclusions – and then badmouthing everything in their path when their worldview collapses!
oh john….that was such a good post. i haven’t had a laugh like that all week.
so to start at the bottom and work up….you vote for jihad jim just because he pisses off republicans???? oh my god….too rich. do you realize just how incredibly stupid that is all by itself?
how irresponsible are you anyway? why don’t you vote for someone that might actually have a brain and a good idea? look….i don’t vote for anyone based on them pissing other people off or because of the letter after their name. that would just be stupid.
you know that whole “anyone but bush” campaign???? it didn’t work….don’t you get it?
but, hey, i’m glad and sorry at the same time that so many liberals are so dumb.
gates built a fortune by ripping off other people with real ideas. that is who you admire?
and i was all for the government hammering him…i still think they should. he is a crook. period.
your whole post is one long laundry list of why, if this state and it’s people’s attitudes don’t change it will continue to be the nation’s largest joke.
the bad drivers are just washingtonians……i don’t think it’s a partisan issue. but that brings to mind, yet again, why you are all so backward here. you think EVERYTHING is a partisan issue.
mindless idiocy.
do i ever go outside? that is such a mature question…but i’ll answer it anyway. of course. constantly…i garden ,row, and sail. there are you happy?
“seattle is what it is, dammit”…..okay, i’ll bite….just what is “it”???????
a non descript ,very dirty, boring city chock a block full of morons with nothing to claim as it’s own?
as to why i live here……i love my husband. and i have tried[really i have] for the last 6 years to find one positive thing about washington in general. you have lovely trees……and then, alas, they are gone. hood canal used to be nice too. and then it wasn’t. for a state that claims to be full of environmentalists you sure don’t know how to take care of anything.
you are all just talk talk talk……..
let me see…… a state that is nicer? wouldn’t the list be shorter if we narrowed it down to states that aren’t? like, oh i don’t know………utah.
i don’t think it is any coincidence that the state of washington is shaped like a big piece of milk toast…..as you said, it just is what it is.
have you ever heard anyone say they could hardly wait to move here?
nah……..
Wheeww. Dr Freud – here’s your patient. Chock-a-block full of projection. Have at ‘er!
As for “jihad jim”, I didn’t say I like that he makes “republicans” mad, I said I like that he makes WINGERS mad. HUGE difference.
John Bridges and Sam Reed are principled Republicans and I will support them in the future.
john……dr.freud…that’s cute…really. but now why don’t you tell me why you uber-environmentalists here live in a state covered in trash and polluted up to here?
wingers..okay. and the point of that is????? i still think it is incredibly silly to waste a vote just to piss someone off…so i must assume you are just talking here and you really do vote your concience [i hope]
what has jihad jim done for you?
Yo Xmas!
You’re wrong again!!!!
Finally, about Jim McDermott, thanks to Tom DeLay, Jim can’t do much of anything along with just about every other member of his caucus. If the R’s are defeated and Jim takes a chairmanship then I’ll be able to better judge whether I should replace him or not. For right now he’s doing exactly what I him to do: PISSING WINGERS OFF!
yo john…….and exactly what gets accomplished on behalf of the citizens of this country when people vote in fools like mcdermott just to piss people off?
you know….here’s a heads up for you. we all live in the same country and playing pissing games like this is beyond childish.
we have terrorists and real threats to deal with and people like you are making up boogie men from ANOTHER PARTY…..so sad.
i have a news flash for you einstein…it doesn’t matter what party you are from, to the terrorists we ALL LOOK ALIKE.
are you going to blame it on israel next?
And xmas the unthinking – we know a lot about the terrorists, what they look like, how they associate, the kind of targets they prefer – it’s not rocket science. It doesn’t mean we have to spend 300 billion dollars invading a country with an ordnance and ammo inventory 2/3 the size of the U.S.’ inventory, perfect for making bombs – right in the midst of a hornet’s nest of ethnic groups with scores to settle – a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and little to nothing to do with Jihadists.
So why did we do it? Could the second largest reserves of oil have anything to do with it?
You run a high-tech business, you think you’re pretty smart – read this. It’s high school chemistry with a little college analysis – and don’t worry the author’s actually a little right wing.
Now read this.
Remember Bush’s Hydrogen Initiative?
Are you still proud you voted for the worst man ever to attain the office?
John@103
“Are you still proud you voted for the worst man ever to attain the office?”>>>
I didnt vote for Bill Clinton, John….