A headline at the Times website:
Who takes a train from Seattle to LA? I’d rather fly some shitty cattle-call airline like Southwest for $49 and be subjected to screaming infants and douchebags in cutoffs reading Joel Osteen books out loud to themselves.
Amtrak sucks, and it’s not because it’s government run. Railway networks in Europe are awesome, and they’re all government run. Why? Infrastructure investment: they invest in theirs, and we don’t invest in ours.
Wait until Americans are hit with the reality of air travel’s impact on global warming -something that brought protesters to airports in Europe last summer (can you imagine airport protesters in the US? That’s almost as inconceivable as full government funding for transportation infrastructure…)
Yes, you summarize it well: no funding. Airlines get billions of dollars in government bail-outs, yet Amtrak tried (until recently) to be the world’s only (?) self-sufficient rail line.
Um, what’s your point?
Will,
James Howard Kunstler avers that with Peak Oil, commercial passenger air travel will soon be a memory…rather acerbically, I might add.
Check out his blog.
Trains are slow. Why pay an equivalent amount of money to ride a train for days when you can fly somewhere in four hours for slightly more?
I look European AND American trains. Amtrack from Vanc to Portland is wonderful and actually competitive on time. Even the oof is decent when there is a diner car! I ahve not seen anything better in Europe, have you?
Comparing Euro rail with routes like Seattle LA, however … does that make sense? How many Europeans still take trains
from Amsterdam or Berlin? From Paris to Copenhavn?
The US is a lot bigger place and I suspect most European long distance travel is by plane too.
I would like to see Shinkansen routes in the US! Does anyone know how the high speed trains are working in France? How well do they compete with air? I know the Paris::Marseilles rout is served by high speed train, how long a route is that?
Addendum: Trains are fine for short-distance travel — a few hours to Portland and back for $60, though busses could perform just as well — but when it comes to serious interstate travel they just cannot compete with airlines.
I’ve taken the Coast Starlight, somewhere between 10 and 15 years ago. It’s a breathtaking ride through some of the most inspiring scenery on the face of the earth. I did it in pieces, starting in LA and making overnight (or longer) stops in Oakland and Portland before arriving at King Street Station.
Yes, it’s slow. Yes, it’s often delayed (because freight always takes precedence over Amtrak). But I wasn’t commuting and didn’t expect to be anywhere in particular at any time in particular.
“Busses could perform just as well” as trains on the run to Portland? What dreamworld are you living in? Train seats, even in coach class, are like first-class seats on an airplane — large and comfortable. Bus seats are tiny in comparison.
And on the train, you can actually get up and walk around; go down to the dining car (or snack bar) and sit there for a while, for a change. Buses offer no such comforts.
Seattle-to-LA is, indeed, a helluva long trip. But keep in mind that that Coast Starlight also represents one of our precious few Seattle-Portland daily round trips.
Few people take an Amtrak route its entire length. But unlike an airplane, a train can make multiple stops pretty easily.
Amtrak doesn’t own their own rail lines – they pay to use freight lines and the tracks don’t accomodate faster trains. amtrak also waits for freight trains and if they get off schedule they get even later. amtrak is rarely on schedule because they can’t make up time and have to wait for the freight trains. I can drive faster than most amtrak trains.
again – we have not invested in good rail. we have done it on the cheap and it stinks. It is not the crying babies – it is the slow old trains and lousy tracks. India has better trains than we do!
It is a question of priorities. Rail is cheap, energy efficient and worthwhile – but we invest in roads, roads and roads.
Souds like HGA should organize a train trip! Howsa about we cord wiht folks in Portland and exchange DL sessions?
Imagine .. a train trip full of bloggers!
err ahhh not sure what the trolls would do. And then there are then anons and sock puppets!
BTW does AMTRACK have WIFI?
sorry I hit send before spell check. I am trying !
Sounds like HA should organize a train trip! Howsa about we cord with folks in Portland and exchange DL sessions?
Imagine .. a train trip full of bloggers!
err ahhh not sure what the trolls would do. And then there are then anons and sock puppets!
BTW does AMTRACK have WIFI?
Will, this is not a very well-informed post. The Coast Starlight is a very popular train and is almost always sold out during major travel periods. I wanted to reserve a sleeping cabin for my trip to Seattle from Salinas last month but could not because even in late October, when I went to make the reservation, it was all booked.
Plenty of Americans prefer the train to flying. Flying has become an extremely inconvenient method of travel. As others have noted it’s also become expensive and with peak oil, it is not something we’re going to be doing for much longer.
Further, if you compare the train to driving, the time on the Coast Starlight is quite comparable. It would have taken us about 24 hours to go from Salinas to Seattle on the train. It took about that long to drive, once you count the night we spent in a hotel in Red Bluff.
Amtrak does well with what paltry money Bush gives it. What it needs is a massive injection of funds to upgrade the rails and the rolling stock (locomotives and cars) to allow more capacity and more regular service.
Finally, someone above mentioned high speed rail. The Amtrak Cascades route is a natural HSR corridor and BC, WA, and OR ought to be planning to turn it into one ASAP. Here in California we have a plan to link SF to San Diego via high speed rail all set to go. This November voters will decided whether or not to float a $10 billion bond to make it happen. It is the most important project our state has considered in 50 years and is vital to our future.
HSR in Europe is a massive success. In France and Spain HSR lines have taken a major share of the traffic between cities (such as Paris-Lyon and Madrid-Barcelona) and are so profitable that they generate income that is being plowed into new lines.
Americans tell themselves that nobody will take the train. They will and they are. If you build it, they will ride.
How fast is the projected LA SF trip?
The train system in Japan is great. Whether it’s the Tokyo Monorail or the JL Line, the on-time performance is legendary. And taking the high-speed bullet train is like travelling business class between the major cities.
Currently, train travel in the U.S. along the west-coast corrider is choked by antiquated RR right-of-ways through congested urban and industrial areas, interrupted frequently because the tracks follow the coastline and are therefore subject to mudslides and wash-outs. Even so, it makes sense to travel by train anywhere in Western Washington and Oregon, because the down-time at the airports at each end, plus commute time from airport to the city, make it pretty much a toss-up as far as door-to-door TAT is concerned.
If we were to invest in a high-speed train service on a national right-of-way, then trains would have a decided advantage, except for cross-country trips. Currently, trains travelling east-west don’t do that much better time than you would gain by driving along the Interstate highways. A high-speed rail network, however, might change the numbers, at 150 MPH.
But they will need to come up with a new baggage handling system.
It would be nice to read some history, if anyone here knows what happened to passenger rail over the years. My understanding is that the railways were essentially GIVEN their rights of way by the federal government on the understanding that they would provide passenger service across America. Why doesn’t the government take that land back, since they have failed in that mission?
When I was a child I lived along the line of the “400”, which was the crack passenger train from Chicago to Minneapolis. (“400 miles in 400 minutes.”) In the fifties the Chicago Northwestern had a deliberate policy to degrade passenger service to discourage riders. The luxurious and loved “400” was turned into a pig sty. I still recall the distress of my great aunt at the lack of water for drinking and the absolute filth of the bathrooms on her last use of the “400.” The CNW argument, then, for dropping the train was the decline in passenger use!
I guess I am saying that this is a pretty complicated issue, when you look at it historically. I do believe that people will ride and love the trains, if they are served by the trains. Even the long distance ride from Chicago to Seattle on the Hiawatha is one of the great experiences available in the United States.
1 “Wait until Americans are hit with the reality of air travel’s impact on global warming”
Actually, from what I’ve read it’s surprisingly little–something like 1%. A few thousand airplanes can’t hold a candle to a hundred million cars, trucks and SUVs.
Aside from that, Americans all seem to be talking about how travelling by air sucks donkey balls. From the increasing prices, to the intimidating and degrading “homeland security” searches, the routine cancellations and delays, the dirty, poorly maintained aircraft and the airline workers who treat passengers like head lice (because that’s the way their employers treat them) it just ain’t no fun anymore.
Man oh man!! Is there EVER a WHOLE LOT OF IGNORANCE in the above posts.
I HAVE TAKEN the Coast Starlight end to end w/in the last 2 years. So, I am far more versed in what the reality of the trip is than ANYONE ABOVE.
1) Amtrak is heavily, heavily subsidized already. Way up near ST’s #’s. Each trip on the CS is subsidized HUNDREDS of $$$.
2) The SEATS SUCK!!! First class airplane seats? I have NEVER sat on anything as miserable for ANY trip ever. No support, no padding, nothing. Coach on any airplane I’ve ridden in the last decade was light years beyond ANY CS seat!!
3) One way or t’other, either coming or going, the train (#21 or 22) will be old. Maybe 30 years. Coming back? Forget it. Jesse James probably robbed it when it was new. (Makes ya wonder what they do w/ their MULTI-BILLION $$$ annual sunsidy???)
4) The WHOLE POINT of a long train trip is the scenic aspect. That REALLY gets LOST at 150 mph. Whatta clown to suggest the train should move faster. I can just see folks spilling their dinners at 150mph!! (Although the Amtrak food ain’t half bad.)
As it is, the expression “wrong side of the tracks” is very appropriate for the CS as you will be travelling through some of the most beautiful DUMPS (houses, trailers, rusted cars, junkyards, etc) on the West Coast.
5) Another REAL COOL THING about riding Amtrak S of Seattle: 2 or 4 DOZEN TIMES A YEAR, there’s a mudslide and YA GET TO RIDE THE BUS TO PORTLAND! Been there. Done that. (BTW, the seats ARE BETTER on the busses than on Amtrak!)
6) $10 billion to hook up SF & SD via rail. That’s low. By a factor 10. Minimum.
Folks: Rail’s time has come and gone. Yeah, they have it in AUS & Japan & Europe. And, it’s great for the tourists who ride it (leisurely) and then say we should get that here. But NONE OF THOSE ECONOMIES are anywhere near ours with our WORLD-beating productivity. We need speed and efficiency. That’s cars, trucks and busses. POINT-TO-POINT like Boeing delivers, not hub-to-hub like Airbus. That’s why BA is back KICKING THEIR ASS!
Give up this insane love for inefficiency. It’s Un-American. Leisure trip by train in a sleeper? Okay. (Bad enough w/ the HUGE subsidy.) But, commuting? Not if we wanna stay ahead of Zimbabwe for GDP!!
subsidy. Obviously
High-speed rail like TGV or the Shinkansen would be wonderful indeed. But I have to play devil’s advocate and say that the capital improvements needed to upgrade the nation’s rail lines (HSR works best when there’s long straight stretches and limited stops or crossings), not to mention upgrading stations, access to the stations, and of course the trains themselves. That would take, with the litigious nature of NIMBY America, billions upon billions (if not trillions) of dollars, and at least a generation to finish. And the only way this current Administration would do it would be if they could get the trains from Halliburton.
But I LOVED my trip on the Coast Starlight back in the day, going to San Diego (after switching to a local connector in LA) and back with my HS marching band to play at the Holiday Bowl back in the late 80’s. To this day it still ranks as the best three days I ever spent traveling.
When you need to go 900 miles quickly most people fly even in Europe. Seattle to Portland by train is getting better all the time, same with NYC to Washington DC. Amtrak works just fine, they just need to drop some of the routes that don’t make sense anymore.
I road from London to Paris a couple of years ago through the Chunnel (before the most recent upgrades that cut another 20 minutes off the time).
The ride from where I started, to where I wanted to be, was at least competitive if not significantly faster than by air. Cost was competitive to cheap airfares. Seats were fine, food was fine, scenery (you have to look a bit away from the train at 150 miles an hour) was fine – yes there was no view in the tunnel.
There’s probably a place for trains, planes, cars, busses, bikes, walking, etc. etc. as we solve our transportation needs.
Seems to me the trick is to keep an open mind.
Your preference for flying (even under the worst of conditions) would be rendered irrelevant if Homeland Security fingers you as a liberal blogger and decides to fuck with you by putting you on the no-fly list.
Speaking of transportation choices, I’d like to ask Timmie Lieman which programs he’d cut in order to divert sales tax revenues to his look-ma-no-new-taxes “congestion relief” initiative. Does he want to release jail inmates? Cut school funding? Eliminate the state patrol? What? Where?
Apart from the problems caused by shifting $130 million a year in the state budget from current programs to an entirely new spending priority, just as diverting transportation taxes from transportation to the general fund would set a bad precedent, using general revenues for transportation sets an equally bad precedent.
Does he really think he can raid the general fund for a transportation initiative, and not have other special interests respond by wanting to spend transportation money on their pet programs?
Once Timmy gets the ball rolling on THAT, there’ll be no stopping it, and the entire state budget will become one great big general fund with every agency and program competing for a piece of gas taxes and bridge tolls.
Hello.
Ok, a field I am uniquely qualified to answer in. Unlike the lot of you, I actually WORK there. We at Amtrak have seen increases for the last several years in ridership. Yes, there are occasional track closures, but how many times have the airports been closed or heavily delayed due to weather conditions? We could offer the same type of seating as the airline industry, and seat twice as many, but one of the differences we try to emphasize is more comfortable seating and more ‘moving around’ area than the airline industry or *shudder* Greyhound. We try to treat the passengers as people, not cattle like the airline industry.
Will, have you actually RIDDEN a train? You complain about transportation fixes, yet refuse to partake in them. Our Cascade service is almost constantly sold out, and people really seem to like it. Why not for once try it yourself? It costs far less than the gas would to drive, and you do not have to stress while doing it. And, a plus to many, while we do have security measures in place, we never will root through your bags, make you take off your shoes, or place you in a seperate line because of ‘security issues.’
Are we perfect? Not by any means. But we are passionate about our jobs and doing the best we can to provide a service far better than the other transportation companies. You don’t ride a train to California if you are in a hurry. Or to Chicago. You do it for the journey itself. For the experience. It’s why we offer sleepers and dining cars. If you could compare us to any other travel industry, it would be cruise ships, but we go year around.
And we are expanding. Coming later this year, we are doubling our train trips to Vancouver, gearing up for the 2010 Winter Olympics. And while some of our equipment is 20 years old (NOT 30 like the misinformed talk about) we are getting newer cars and engines constantly to meet up with the growing demand.
If this rambling seems a bit spirited, it is. This is a job I love and a field I love. I wake up daily happy to be working there. It sounds like PR, but I swear it is true. If you could get past your personal dislikes and see what we see daily, you might change your mind. If anything, I am surprised you wouldn’t want it to grow more as well. If more people supported us then MAYBE we could become more like the European model. We do far more with far less than what the airline industries are given. Give us a chance is all I am asking.
Thank you.
PS- Seattle Jew: no, there is no Wi-Fi here yet. Since Amtrak does not own any tracks on the West Coast, it is a bit more difficult to install the towers. But we are trying to fix that.
@24 You touch on an important point. This country NEEDS train service. Unfortunately, we have allowed the railroads not only to destroy it when they ran it, we allow them now to travel on government granted rail-lines and to put freight service ahead of train service, and that is the cause of most of the damage to efficient and timely schedules (so I read). The railways must be ordered by law to work around the train schedules, not the other way around. I suspect that once we can trust departure and arrival times, train demand will soar.
@24
I love being able to hop on a train right in down town Tacoma and hop off right in down town Portland. The Seattle to Portland run is the bomb.
@17 Has never been on a train. That was the dumbest post I’ve seen in ages
1) Amtrak is heavily subsidized? Oh, and tax money doesn’t make it’s way to the highways, and airports? LOL
2) The SEATS SUCK? Not on any train I’ve been on in the last 20 years. Are you seriously comparing the seat in a bus or United Airlines to Amtrak? This proves you’ve never actually been on a train.
3) Train ridership is increasing world wide (where the tracks/times are good). No a New York to LA train doesn’t make sense in anything other than a ‘vacation’ mode, but Seattle to Vancouver is not only MUCH MUCH more pleasant, scenic and peaceful than driving, you also get to sail across the border without the 2-3 hour wait cars get subjected to (try coming back into the U.S. on Sunday by car…LOL)
4) I can just see folks spilling their dinners at 150mph? Again, ignorant little American who never leaves his home town. If like me you’d been on a high speed Japanese train you’d know they rocked LESS than Amtrak’s Portland route.
5) Another REAL COOL THING about riding Amtrak S of Seattle: 2 or 4 DOZEN TIMES A YEAR, there’s a mudslide? My family still lives back in Illinois. I take it you’ve never been snowed in at O’Hare? Uh huh.
Thank you @24, it’s always nice to be confirmed by an insider. Thanks for contributing and puting cmklitch in his place
@15 Re “..My understanding is that the railways were essentially GIVEN their rights of way by the federal government on the understanding that they would provide passenger service across America..”-
In 1864… nearly ‘given’… during wartime, too…
“..Why doesn’t the government take that land back, since they have failed in that mission?”-
Well, it’d be legal- & fair- but it’d also be the end of Plum Creek, Boise Cascade & Weyerhaeuser… which all exist as a result of the Fed largesse to the Robber Barons who built the railroads. Quite a subject…
We only have so much time to Be here- wherever it is- and the idea that “the efficiency of air travel trumps all its down-sides” is… only an idea. Train travel vs air is like the difference between the “efficiency” of highway driving vs the “inefficiency” of taking a ferry… where you walk outside, see the horizon, breathe deep as your blood pressure dropps 15 or 20 “worry points”, sit and read, or visit with friends- or strangers- at 12 knots, instead of 55 mph (on a good day). Savor your life… don’t “save it for later”. ^..^
The railway network in Britain is aw-ful and has been for years. It is also the only privatised network in Western Europe. The government hasn’t invested, in any meaningful fashion, in the railways since the early 1980s, if not before.
Golly Mr Smokestoomuch@27…
So, for several days in a row in the Winter of ’05-’06, when Amtrak’s line was shut down between Seattle and Portland, including my trip, we didn’t get bussed to Portland? Wow. I didn’t see YOU there.
Or, on the return trip when the engine broke down in Oakland @ 2 a.m. and had to be swapped out, I don’t remember seeing you there suffering w/ the rest of us FOR 2 HOURS! (When the engine disconnects, there’s no air, lighting, can’t use the restrooms, etc, etc. You granola-eating lefties get awfully gamey with no a/c.)
Yeah, the Coast trains are miserable. The interiors on the cars look like they were hand painted by retarded liberals. And, yes they look hella old. And, yes you probably like the seats. After all, they are a faded pink-brown combo. With no support. Or lumbar. By comparison, the bus we rode to Portland (and back from Portland a week later) had nice seats. Narrow, but way more comfortable than either the #21 or 22.
And, truth be told, the gas taxes, vehicle excise taxes, etc, etc SUBSIDIZE OTHER PROGRAMS, numbnuts. That’s why the nickel and the 9.5 cent increases HAVE DISAPPEARED.
You P.O.S. lefty, I’ve got the ticket stubs to prove I took the trip(s). Quit smoking so much dope and you’ll be able to discern reality from leftist-fascist fantasy!
@24 LBehind
TX for a great post.
I think Amtrack/WAstate is a huge resource that deservesa lot more attention. I enocurage travelers to use it and get great feedback.
My only suggestion .. the old placement of stations is not effective any more. I would esp like to see easy xfer between the airports and Amtrack.
@31 Cmik
You must ride on the wrong trains!
As for the gas tax .. it does not come NEAR paying the costs of the highway system.
Take a high scholo physics course and learn why a car MUST be less effcient then a bus and a bus less than train.
BUT what the hell, you probably think Jesus created the highways.
Mr jew and Mr smoke:
Did you EVEN READ THE LINKED STORY that prompted this thread?
IT’S ALL ABOUT MUDSLIDES STOPPING THE RUN!
Golly. Another conservative proven right by the FACTS. But don’t let that stop you liberals. It hasn’t so far…
The Amtrak between Tacoma and Portland is a very efficent way to get between the two cities, it goes fast etc. WA State supoprted Amtrak Cascades are generally much better and more on time than the national Amtrak. One thing that sucks is they have the capabiliites to go 130 mph but can’t due to track limitations. That said, Tacoma to PDX is the same amount of time as driving (when there isn’t traffic) and they get up to 85 mph in many parts of the trip.
And yes, Mr jew, the gas taxes, vehicle excise taxes, vehicle sales taxes, etc, etc, ad infinitum, do INDEED MORE than pay for what the roads cost.
Don’t just think directly, either. When you buy a loaf of bread, you must pay the baker’s share of his road taxes. Likewise, the garbage man, the grocer, the cable guy, the post office, etc, etc, etc, etc. ALL USERS (including GOV’T) charge their road tax(es) sum(s) to YOU, the end user.
Also, time is a “cost”. How much more time will be wasted by taking a commuter train when you first must drive to the station, find a place to park, wait for your scheduled train, ride to a point RELATIVELY NEAR (could be miles!!!) your destination, and reverse the process using EVEN MORE public transportation (because you left YOUR PERSONAL VEHICLE at the other end).
Commute times DOUBLE or TRIPLE using mass/public transportation. Those are huge costs! Cost in productivity, cost in family time, costs in SLEEP DEPRIVATION, etc, etc, etc…
BTW, Jesus did mention the “highway” and the “road” in the bible. But, nothing about any trains….
Rail is way too expensive for long trips, even for people willing to sacrifice a couple of extra days. The big problem is that sleeper units are way more expensive than motels. They add hundreds of dollars a night to the cost of a ticket.
On the other hand, with adequate funding and high-speed rails, trains would be far superior to flying for regional trips. We need a high-speed rail line from Portland to Vancouver ASAP.
37 You must stay in some real dumps.
38, the cheapest one night sleeper room I could find on Amtrak’s site was $244/night, on top of the other fares. That’s not a cheap hotel room, especially when compared to driving comparable routes, where you’d be getting rooms in places like rural Oregon, Montana, and the Dakotas.
I recently took a train trip around Europe. London to Paris to Zurich to Berlin to Darmstadt and then back to Paris and London.
It was fantastic. The trains reached speeds of 350kph (~210mph) and they were easier to walk along than planes. I had electrical outlets at my seat and some of the trains had wifi and most had mobile repeaters for excellent cell coverage. The food was great, the staff were friendly. When you consider that airports are outside of cities while train terminals are in them and that air travel has loads of delays for boarding and security, the train trips I took were faster and cheaper than equivalent flights.
I’ve enjoyed air travel – my first flight was at the age of 6 months. But in my 30+ years of air travel I’ve never enjoyed a trip as much as I did the trains I took this year. They were truly remarkable and it’s a shame America (where I’m from) and Ireland (where I live) can’t get their act together on this.
@35 cmiklich
Nope. The highway taxes do not come close to paying for the highways. Next time you make something up, read the web first.
Nope, if I go to Portland I usually am panning to spend my time either down town or at the end of a cap ride. I neither have nor want a car with me. Same for Vanc.
Nope, you have a dumbed down version. In the original, before it was edited by Constantine, Yashka tells his wife Mary M, to meet him when he comes back from London ON THE CHUNNEL.
Now there were two problems that kept this out of your hacked up copy:
1. The sad sacks of the Nicean Council could not get ti through their heads that Yashka was not gay like them and did what the law said .. he married and screwed.
2. The same “scholars” did not speak Aramaic and therefore were unable to translate HN’L. They decided also that no Jew of their time would be caught dead in a place as rund own as Lodres so .. they did the obvious … they mistranslated ,HN’L as “descended” and LNDRS El LND’RS .. that is the hihg and holy place .. you call it heaveen in you pagan bibles.
3. Fianlly, just imagine WWJD given the choice of a pleasant trip on the Cascade rail train where he could walk around preaching vs being strapped in as a nut case on Alaska 743?
Sometimes thinsg are too obvious!
Looks like “whatareyousmoking” and the jew should get together as the question is most apropo…
@37
Even modest improvements (which they’re working on) to the Tacoma-Portland run would get the time down to at or under 2 hours. Not real sure if it’s worth all that extra cash to knock another half an hour off the trip.