Takin’ it to the peeps

I first heard about Gov. Gregoire’s viaduct “punt” last Friday following the big wind storm right as I was in the middle of a two-hour commute from Redmond to U-Dub. (Yeah…I know I should have stayed home, but I didn’t really have a choice.) Normally, my commute is 25 minutes by car or an hour by bus. On Friday, however, the SR520 floating bridge was shut down to repair wind damage. At about the one hour mark, crawling along at under 10 mph on I-405, I was contemplating the many ways my quality of life would decline if the SR520 bridge decided to sink. And then the news broke about Gregoire’s statement.

Frankly, I was irritated by another delay in replacing a failing piece of critical infrastructure. Gregiore had her chance to be The Decider™ and she decided to punt. Or so I thought from the media account.

After the sting of a painful commute faded, I looked into Gregoire’s statement and it became clear to me that she had, in fact, made nearly all of the important decisions. She decided that all options were out except the tunnel and the rebuild. Essentially, Gregoire validated (politically and practically) the engineering, environmental, and fiscal analyses found in DOT’s Supplemental Draft, Environmental Impact Statement (DEIS) that rejected all but these two options. And eliminating the fringe options is a good decision.

The DEIS dealt with each fringe option in turn. I’ll only mention the so-called no-replacement option because, I believe, Goldy disagrees with me on it. The DEIS finds that the no-replacement option isn’t viable:

  • Replacing the viaduct with a four-lane surface street would substantially increase congestion for most of the day and part of the evening on I-5 through downtown Seattle, downtown streets, and Alaskan Way. These congested conditions are predicted to occur even if improvements were made to downtown streets and transit ridership substantially increased.
  • I-5 through Seattle doesn’t have room for additional trips since it’s already congested through much of the day and into the evening. However, under the No Replacement concept, many trips that currently use the viaduct would shift to I-5, causing it to become even more congested.
  • Downtown street traffic would increase by 30 percent, though traffic increases to specific areas like Pioneer Square and the waterfront could exceed 30 percent.
  • With a four-lane roadway, traffic on Alaskan Way would quadruple to 35,000 to 56,000 vehicles per day compared to about 10,000 vehicles today. This traffic would make it difficult for patrons to get to waterfront businesses and would create more conflicts between vehicles and the many bicyclists and pedestrians that use Alaskan Way.
  • Neighborhoods west of I-5 (Ballard, Queen Anne, Magnolia, and West Seattle) would have less direct connections to and through downtown; therefore, travel times for trips to and through downtown would increase for drivers from these areas.

A four-lane Alaskan Way would create more congestion on I-5 and downtown streets than the Surface Alternative evaluated in the Draft EIS. The project partners dropped the Surface Alternative because it didn’t meet the AWV Project’s purpose, which is to “maintain or improve mobility, accessibility, and traffic safety for people and goods along the existing Alaskan Way Viaduct Corridor.

More congestion, longer trip times, and greater susceptibility to accidents, construction, and events? No thanks. The no-replacement option would make a trip to (or through) downtown Seattle less desirable than a field trip through a rendering plant. If anything, it’s a plan to slowly strangle downtown Seattle.

I’m also not convinced by reports that other cities have removed capacity with minimal long term effects. Such decisions are generally not made randomly—there is engineering judgment that precedes such a drastic move. With I-5 at capacity and downtown already too congested at peak times, the engineering judgment suggests that the Seattle waterfront is not a good candidate for capacity reduction.

Gregoire made another important decision. She decided that the decision between the tunnel option and the rebuild option would come down to a vote of the people. But not just any people. She put it up to a vote by the people who would gain the greatest benefit. Oh…and the people who would have to pay the price difference for a tunnel.

The Seattle Times editorial board refers to this as Gregoire’s pragmatic punt.

Effectively, Gregoire is saying, “we will go with the rebuild option because the State has an obligation to replace an important and failing part of the highway infrastructure and, by the way, Seattle, if you want a tunnel instead let us know (soon!) and, if so, include your credit card number.”

What some consider a “punt” is really an offer of an upgrade option for Seattle.

The tunnel upgrade option for Seattle is good politics, too. If the voters decide to spend a couple billion of their own dollars for the tunnel, who can deny them? Or if the voters cheap-out and decide that a rebuilt monstrosity along the waterfront is good enough, then…well, then let them lie in their own noise pollution.

This morning on KUOW’s Weekday, Joni Balter and Joel Connelly had a mini-debate over the Governor’s decision. Balter considered the decision strategically sound. Why? Because Gregoire knows that House Speaker Frank Chopp will do everything he can legislatively to kill the tunnel. And Mayor Nickels will interfere with any attempt to implement the rebuild option. As Balter points out, there is one power higher than Gregoire, and that is the voters.

Joel Connelly, on the other hand, felt that Gregoire offered a shanked punt. We pay her to be The Decider™, and she ought to decide. In case you haven’t figured it out, I find Balter’s arguments more compelling.

Clearly, Gregoire favors the rebuild option; she probably expects Seattle to fail in coming up with either the public support or the funding for a tunnel. The ball is now in Nickels’ court to both build public support and convert his fantasy funding plan into something grounded in reality.

The DEIS prices the tunnel at between $3.6 and $4.3 billion, and the elevated rebuild from $2.5 to $2.9 billion. Funding for the rebuild is almost in place, as there is now $2.45 billion committed to the project, including $2.2 billion from the State, $0.24 billion from the Feds, and $0.016 billion from Seattle.

The tunnel option would likely draw an additional $500 million from Seattle and $200 million from the Port of Seattle. Other potential funding sources include a local improvement district (actually, this was proposed by Goldy) that could provide $250 million, a regional ballot measure (i.e. new taxes), additional Army Corps of Engineers funding for the seawall part of the project, and additional Federal highway and emergency relief funding.

In the long run, the tunnel option offers significant advantages. Most importantly, it will remake the downtown Seattle waterfront. Have you ever walked from the Pike Place Market to the waterfront? Man…talk about an unpleasant experience! A tunnel would

…dramatically decrease noise levels by about 12 A-weighted decibels (dBA) along the waterfront. This would sound like cutting the noise level by more than half. Noise along the central section of the project corridor is currently loud and would not change much if the Elevated Structure Alternative is built.

The way I see it, the tunnel option is a long term investment, and one that will be appreciated by generations of Seattleites. I can imagine thirty years from now, two lovers will be strolling down to the waterfront, hand in hand. Under one scenario they’ll excitedly discuss their future life together as they take in the pleasant views. Under the other scenario, one will bellow at the other , “I can’t believe they built a fucking freeway through the waterfront!”

So I hope Seattle goes for the option…who knows what kind of difference it could make. I’m just sayin’.

Comments

  1. 1

    skagit spews:

    First of all, Gregoire very clearly delineated her reasons for narrowing the decision to two choices in her press conference. No one should have been confused. Second, the seawall will be built in either case: tunnel or rebuild. So, I don’t see the funding from the Army Corp as a reason to go with the tunnel.

    Third, she stated a preference for the tunnel at the end of the her talk. But, she clearly stated that it was taxpayer money and we should choose.

    I admire her analysis and clear thinking.

    Those of you who live outside the City and commute really have to pay your way more than you do. My taxes are rising at an alarming rate. I choose to live in Seattle so am willing to try to keep up. But, please try not to judge my choices when you are benefiting from my tax dollars.

    As for those two lovers, let ‘em walk the waterfront in San Francisco if they don’t like Seattle. I don’t give a damn.

  2. 2

    rob spews:

    From the Seattle Times:

    But Gregoire says she changed her mind after taking a recent field trip with Seattle Mayor Greg Nickels to inspect the quake-damaged viaduct and aging 520 bridge. Experts say both are at risk of failing.

    “I did not know how bad it was,” said Gregoire. “If people die and I could have done more, I couldn’t live with that.”

    I guess it wasn’t as bad as she thought it was.

  3. 6

    Jenna Bush spews:

    Gosh. Driving is sooo much easier when somebody else does it. But you little people need something to write about, I suppose. Besides, when somebody else drives, Daddy can drink as much as he wants.

  4. 7

    skagit spews:

    One more thing, Darryl: she also said that we must get people out of their cars.

    Didn’t say how but recognizes that the ability to drive in this rectangular region has limits. What do you plan to do to change your reliance on the vehicle?

  5. 8

    rob spews:

    Re: 7, Skagit, I used to work downtown and cummuted via the 520. There was always more traffic leaving Seattle in the morning that going to Seattle. You should ask your neighbors how they are going to get to their jobs on the eastside without their cars.

  6. 9

    spews:

    Darryl-

    Nice job laying it out. A few notes:

    The DEIS does not include transit improvements when it studied the surface option. Ofcourse traffic will ‘snarl’ if all we replace the viaduct with is a four lane road. The surface plus transit option INCLUDES transit, and reconnecting the street grid, and making our streets more efficient. (If you want to see in efficient use of downtown streets, just lake a look at 4th Ave at 5:59pm when two lanes dissapear, and become parking).

    Also, the Governor has stated that the tunnel option is not financially sound- we don’t have the money. Why, for the love of Pete, would we vote on an option which we KNOW we can’t pay for?

    What we should do, instead of voting between options, is to give an up or down vote on the viaduct. Let’s see if folks are crazy enough to rebuild another concrete piece of shit on the waterfront.

  7. 10

    skagit spews:

    What we should do, instead of voting between options, is to give an up or down vote on the viaduct. Let’s see if folks are crazy enough to rebuild another concrete piece of shit on the waterfront.

    She took the advice of the experts she depends upon. What is it with you, Will? She came to a decision and is giving us the option of what she has determined we need.

    So, you’re so smart . . .

    Gawd! This is going to be school closure all over again. me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

  8. 11

    skagit spews:

    Rob: according to whom was there more traffic leaving than entering? Or is this another “observation” from someone in traffic?

  9. 12

    skagit spews:

    BTW, Rob, perhaps the majority of people entering the city were riding those really excellent peak our buses that get the use of the HOV lanes and get to the citycenter faster than those of us who actually live in the city get there? You wouldn’t know about those people because you are in your vehicle.

  10. 13

    rob spews:

    That’s according to me skagit, and everyone else I talk to regarding the cummute. It’s really all about me anyway though.

    If the viaduct does fall down and someone is killed the deceased’s lawyers are going to love the article from the times I linked you to.

  11. 14

    spews:

    skagit-

    Because a choice between a viaduct or a tunnel is no choice at all, really. Its like asking a vegatarian if they like their steak broiled or seared.

    One thing tunnel advocates like Darryl, Goldy, and Greg Nickels and Roads+Transit supporters like Cary Moon, Ron Sims, and me agree on is another viaduct on the waterfront is dumb dumb dumb.

    The Gov can decide (or not decide) on whatever she wants. There’s no money for a tunnel, and no appetite for a rebuild. Frank Chop is going to KILL a tunnel, and Greg Nickels (with my bud Peter Steinbrueck) are going to put a rebuild to sleep in “permitting hell”.

    Do that math, and you get Roads+Transit.

  12. 15

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    50 years from now, after global warming raises the sea level, you’ll have a $4.5 billion storm sewer — but hey, you’ll have plenty of sewer capacity.

  13. 16

    rob spews:

    Re: 12, In case you havn’t been out of your mom’s basement in awhile there is no HOV lane on the 520 bridge.

  14. 17

    rob spews:

    Re: 15, I could have used some of that global warming Saturday night. When is supposed to start again?

  15. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “(actually, this was proposed by Goldy)”

    Ahem, as I recall, I posted this idea before Goldy or anyone else did. And I also suggested selling the air rights above the tunnel to developers. That, alone, probably would raise enough money to pay for the difference. SR 99 would become a linked series of parking garages under office towers. What the hell, SR is a parking lot now.

  16. 19

    spews:

    Skagit @ 7

    “What do you plan to do to change your reliance on the vehicle?”

    I’ve addressed and implemented my plan, and discuss it here. And, really, even if I am using mass transit, 520 is critical.

  17. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    17 Typical wingnut bullshit. You guys look out the window and say, “What global warming?” Do wingnuts EVER do any research? No, I didn’t think so. Here’s something really simple and basic to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

    When you’ve completed that reading assignment, report back.

  18. 21

    Washington Voters spews:

    Frankly, I was irritated by another delay in replacing a failing piece of critical infrastructure. Gregiore had her chance to be The Decider™ and she decided to punt.

    Of course Queen Chrissy was selected and not elected.

  19. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Note particularly this paragraph: “An increase in global temperatures can in turn cause other changes, including a rising sea level and changes in the amount and pattern of precipitation. These changes may increase the frequency and intensity of extreme weather events, such as floods, droughts, heat waves, hurricanes, and tornados. Other consequences include higher or lower agricultural yields, glacial retreat, reduced summer stream flows, species extinctions and increases in the ranges of disease vectors.”

    Note, also, this planet has no problems that can’t be solved by the extinction of one species.

  20. 24

    rob spews:

    Re: 20 ok I read it rodent. Damn it was hot here Saturday night! Why is it so hot? Oh yeah…Global Warming.

  21. 25

    Dan Rather spews:

    17 Typical wingnut bullshit. You guys look out the window and say, “What global warming?” Do wingnuts EVER do any research? No, I didn’t think so. Here’s something really simple and basic to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G lobal_warming

    When you’ve completed that reading assignment, report back.

    Of course if you listen to the same moonbats hyperventilating on one hot day in the summer you would swear the world was coming to an end.

  22. 26

    Dan Rather spews:

    What ever happened to the coming ice age. I guess the moonbats wore that one out. hehehe

  23. 27

    Jenna Bush spews:

    16 rob, you embarrass us right-wing nutjobs. The writer referred to HOV lanes in general, not “on the 520 bridge”. My driver told me that there is an HOV lane on the bridge approaches on both sides, but the bridge itself is too narrow to have an HOV lane.

    See, rob, for us right-wing nutjobs to have any credibility, we have to be at least factually accurate.

    Oh. So that’s why we don’t write very much, I guess.

    Dirty Muthas all ’round, tee-hee!!

  24. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “The sea level has risen more than 120 metres since the peak of the last ice age about 18,000 years ago. The bulk of that occurred before 6,000 years ago. From 3,000 years ago to the start of the 19th century sea level was almost constant, rising at 0.1 to 0.2 mm/yr; since 1900 the level has risen at 1 to 3 mm/yr; since 1992 satellite altimetry from TOPEX/Poseidon indicates a rate of about 3 mm/yr. This change may be the first sign of the effect of global warming on sea level. Global warming is predicted to cause significant rises in sea level over the course of the twenty-first century.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_level_rise

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: If my math is any good, the sea level is rising 90 times as fast as it did 200 years ago.

  25. 31

    spews:

    Skagit @

    “One thing tunnel advocates like Darryl, Goldy, and Greg Nickels and Roads+Transit supporters like Cary Moon, Ron Sims, and me agree on is another viaduct on the waterfront is dumb dumb dumb.”

    I won’t speak for others, but for me the viaduct rebuild is a dumb option, but better than the no-build options. On the other hand, I’m not being asked to fund the upgrade. (Actually, if there was a King County-wide vote for a tax option, I would almost certainly support it–even though I don’t use the viaduct.)

    “The Gov can decide (or not decide) on whatever she wants. There’s no money for a tunnel, and no appetite for a rebuild.”

    But Gregoire’s decision forces Nickels to put together a realistic funding package—put up or put up a viaduct, if you will. There is no such think as “no money.” Nickels can propose how the money will be raised and the voters get to decide if the investment is worth the costs.

    “Frank Chop is going to KILL a tunnel, and Greg Nickels (with my bud Peter Steinbrueck) are going to put a rebuild to sleep in “permitting hell”.”

    The other idea of a vote in Seattle is that Nickels and Chopp will pretty much have to go along with the outcome of the vote.

  26. 35

    Jenna Bush spews:

    Gosh, 30 Chealsea Clinton, I think you need to work on figuring out how to spell your own name before you worry about the size of your butt.

    Opps! That tall Argentine bodyguard is mixing the hot buttered rums again!! Gotta go!!

  27. 36

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Sure you can raise taxes to build a tunnel. But AWV is only the first of many regional priorities seeking funding. Once you spend that $2 billion on a tunnel, you can’t spend it on 520 or some other need. Do you ask property owners to pay higher taxes for a tunnel — then come back and ask them to pay still higher taxes for 520 — then keep coming back for even higher taxes for the rest of the Puget Sound area’s $100 billion backlog of justifiable-but-unfunded infrastructure needs?

    Or, before salivating too much over a tunnel, do you stop and think about some of the region’s other funding needs and whether it’s a good idea to spend $2 billion that you don’t have to spend?

    At some point, voters forced to choose between public projects and food will choose food, no matter how much shit is spilling out of the sewers.

  28. 38

    rob spews:

    36: Well said rabbit, it will be hard for you to remain liberal though with your constant disdain of taxes.

  29. 41

    skagit spews:

    Rob: “If the viaduct does fall down and someone is killed the deceased’s lawyers are going to love the article from the times I linked you to.”

    Emotions, emotions! What does the foregoing even have to do with the debate?

    Also, as Jenna posted, there are HOV lanes approaching the 520. And, I believe the gov indicated that there would be two HOV lanes on the new 520. Of course, I only listened to her first hand. Perhaps you have some crystal ball that says different.

    Darryl @ 31 You’re quoting Will there and I agree with you. I think Will is a babe in arms and a very superficial thinker. So there.

    And, as a renter, he’ll never pay the kind of property taxes we owners pay. When I was a renter, I didn’t see the taxes like I do as an owner. He’ll say they are passed on but nothing like for those of us who pay them on an individual dwelling. It just don’t compute!

  30. 42

    rob spews:

    41: The 520 has A HOV lane on the eastside that causes severe traffic jambs. Of course you would have to drive on it to find that out!

    As for what does Princess Gregoire’s comments when she was taxing us have to do with the debate. It’s called inacation Skagit. There is no plan to improve either the viaduct or the 520 and it has been over a year that we have been paying taxes to do both.

    Gregoire said it was an emergency and she didn’t know how she could live with herhighness if she did nothing. She has now taken over a year to PUNT! Is there really something about that you don’t understand?

  31. 43

    skagit spews:

    So, you’re in a rush to get something done even if we ended up with the big dig? How long as the tunnel needed action? Quite a while wouldn’t you say? Do you hate her because she’s a woman or because she’s a Democrat or both?

    I think she has done it right. And I think those of us who have to pay should call the play. Okay?

  32. 45

    thor spews:

    There are only two real options: tunnel and surface. Too bad people who spend too much time in Olympia don’t get this.

    A vote between a tunnel and a rebuild presents a false choice. The people of the city, if presented with another option on the surface, at less cost than either of the other alternatives, would choose the surface.

    And the Governor is wrong about the choices we actually have on the surface. It wouldn’t need to be limited to four lanes, not by a long shot. And one thing that really cracks me up is that the Battery Street tunnel is only four lanes now. Are we going to expand it too?

    We need better highway engineering to drive down the costs and save the city from eternal blight. If we don’t want to pay for a tunnel we need to get far more creative than WSDOT has been in looking at surface options that would work. All they’ve been doing is designing surface options to fail because they are stuck in ancient midsets on how best to manage traffic.

    They need to wake up.

  33. 46

    Dan Rather spews:

    Do you hate her because she’s a woman or because she’s a Democrat or both?

    I would have to give you the same answer if you were to ask me if she was legitimately elected. No.

  34. 47

    rob spews:

    43: Since 2001 Skagit, in case you were on the east coast with Goldy here is a link, we had an earthquake.

    http://www.pnsn.org/SEIS/EQ_Sp.....lcome.html

    It damaged the viaduct and we had a Democrat for a governor when it happened. It still isn’t fixed.

    I don’t hate Gregoire, I believe she is a hypocrite who cried wold to raise our taxes. Now that the taxes are raised the viaduct still isn’t fixed. By the way, the 520 needed to be fixed along with education and the environment throughout Lock’s Career. Now after all of that fine liberal rule we drive on the 520, the viaduct at our own peril and we just found out we can’t eat salmon out of the sound and if you come across a dead Orca it should be treated as hazardous waste.

    I think our local government sucks.

  35. 48

    spews:

    I MUST BE CONFUSED

    Why should Seattle bear the costs of an amenity that mainly serves people living outside of Seattle?

    The tax payers of Seattle already pay over twice as much in Real Estate tax than our wealthier neighbors in Bellevue. At least part of this goes to support amenities that benefit the entire region as much or more than the citizens of the Queen City.

    Seattle should not pay to support any traffic device whose main function is transport through the NS corridor.
    From what I have read about I99 it is moe than 60% used to get into and out of Seattle. North South traffic, commercial transport, goes via 405 and I5.

    If this is true, then I fail to understand why a surface road, without a boulevard along the waterfront would not work as long as it included badly needed new provisions for traffic coming onto Seattle from the North and South.

    Exactly who needs a waterfront NS conduit anyway? I doubt that many folks live in White Center and commute to Everett or live in Everett and commute to jobs at Boeing field. Commercial traffic .. Boeing, PACCAR, etc, really can and should be routed to major NS corridors on the East side.

    So, here is the SeattleJew plan:

    1. tear down the viaduct, replace it with an extensive reworking of I99 into Seattle from the North and South by creating a boulevard designed to DISTRIBUTE traffic into and out of downtown. I can not see how this could increase grid lock.

    2. ban commercial traffic from the boulevard but widen I405 or create a new NS highway East of 405. Maybe Bellevue would like to bury I 405 while they are at it?

  36. 49

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    38 I’m not against taxes. I’m merely in favor of you guys paying them, so I don’t have to.

  37. 50

    Greg spews:

    You folks seem to have missed the bit about Gregoire’s conferences with both factions in which each faction admitted they would use legislative processes to block the undesired option.

    In terms of the street option, you no doubt haven’t tried to make your way through Seattle during rush hour using surface routes. You’ve probably also not tried Aurora going south when there’s been a bit of difficulty.

    My recommendation is that next time you have a guest coming into Seatac you take the back route back into Seattle using the viaduct as the entry to the city. If you support the tunnel option, consider the contrast in effect.

    One other point to consider is that a relatively small number of land owners along the waterfront (Nickels’ constituency) will profit from a major winfall in grossly enhanced property values at the expense of the general tax paying citizenry across the city.

    Stop judging the viaduct in terms of its 1948 architecture & engineering & consider the possibilities.

  38. 51

    rob spews:

    48: I agree, you are confused. The state has agreed to replace the viaduct paid for by all residents of the state. If you want a tunnel you have to pay the difference between the cost of the viaduct and the tunnel. Does that help your confusion?

  39. 52

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    42 AWV is a higher priority than 520 because the viaduct is damaged and 520 still has 13 to 17 years of service life left. We have some time (but not a lot of time) to decide what to do about 520, but we don’t have much time to do something about SR 99.

  40. 54

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    45 The surface proponents lost. The surface option is off the table. Time to move on.

  41. 55

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    46 She ws legitimately elected, all the GOP lies about the election notwithstanding. She got more legal votes than Rossi. What part of that don’t you get?

  42. 56

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Could ANY of you wingnuts provide a coherent and convincing explanation of why Rossi instead of Gregoire should be sitting in the Governor’s office?

  43. 57

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    48 SR 99 is a STATE highway for a reason. It carries commercial traffic of statewide significance. You are right about who uses (and benefits from) a through route in downtown Seattle, but why not continue with this reasoning to the next logical step? What, exactly, is the advantage of a tunnel? Primarily improved downtown views; it won’t carry more traffic than a viaduct rebuild. Who benefits from improved waterfront access and views? Downtown property owners. That’s why a Special Improvement District makes sense. If you want a tunnel, let the people whose property values will increase pay for it. People in the suburbs (Everett, Federal Way, etc.) already are paying for the basic rebuild of STATE HIGHWAY 99 through downtown Seattle at the gas pump. Building a tunnel to improve views and waterfront access only benefits downtown property owners and businesses. That’s why they, not suburban commuters, should pay for the difference between a viaduct rebuild and tunnel.

  44. 58

    rob spews:

    Re: 56, nope I can’t, when all the votes were counted 3 or 4 times and the 1,800 illegal votes were determined as irrelevant because of the poor lawyering the GOP put forth. She won! She is our Governor. Think about that when the viaduct is crushing you or you family.

  45. 59

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    53 Not really. I’m just copying Republicans. Why should Republicans have a monopoly on tax avoidance? There’s plenty of tax avoidance to go around — enough for everybody! Republicans want a monopoly on every fucking thing.

  46. 61

    skagit spews:

    Thor:We need better highway engineering to drive down the costs and save the city from eternal blight. If we don’t want to pay for a tunnel we need to get far more creative than WSDOT has been in looking at surface options that would work. All they’ve been doing is designing surface options to fail because they are stuck in ancient midsets on how best to manage traffic.

    So, Einstein, what’s the plan?

    Rob:It damaged the viaduct and we had a Democrat for a governor when it happened. It still isn’t fixed.

    I don’t hate Gregoire, I believe she is a hypocrite who cried wold to raise our taxes.

    I guess I’ve watched her work very hard to solve a lot of problems that Gary Locke wouldn’t touch. Our so-called “education” gov didn’t do diddly squat. Give her a chance.

    I really think you are asking for a lot. She’s thoughtful, gets information, analyses it and decides. A decision to let the taxpayers decide rather than deferring to our elitist mayor suits me fine.

    Schwartz: 1. tear down the viaduct, replace it with an extensive reworking of I99 into Seattle from the North and South by creating a boulevard designed to DISTRIBUTE traffic into and out of downtown. I can not see how this could increase grid lock.

    2. ban commercial traffic from the boulevard but widen I405 or create a new NS highway East of 405. Maybe Bellevue would like to bury I 405 while they are at it?

    I’m totally in agreement on the taxes thing. Through traffic which is hardly just City people are using that roadway and should be helping to pay for it.

    I am for surface roads but I have to defer to the expertise that is presented to us. Just like the arguments about school closure, at some point don’t we have to trust the people we are paying to give us information? If we can’t trust anybody in the bureaucracy, what in the hell are we ever going to get done?

    Finally, I’ve been saying everytime this issue comes up that commercial traffic should be fed on alternate routes. I can’t remember the details, but I had a friend who noticed when a strike was on at the Port (I think -long time ago) how much less traffic there was when he drove to and from work. Get commercial vehicles off the main roads.

    Can we move the Port? (LOL)

  47. 62

    skagit spews:

    Rob: . . . because of the poor lawyering the GOP put forth. She won! She is our Governor. Think about that when the viaduct is crushing you or you family.

    Poor lawyering? Poor judge in a conservative county. . . how about poor sportsmanship, huh? You lost fair and square and you are still whining about.

    And the viaduct wouldn’t be any closer to be fixed under Rossi. If anything, he’d be looking for more cuts just like your underworking DC Republican crowd. I’m so sick of your whining.

    Also, Schwartz, anything you do to widen surface roadways along Aurora? would require land condemnation. I don’t think that is a good idea . . . neither fiscally or socially. Just not the right time with the monorail fiasco so recent in our minds.

  48. 63

    rob spews:

    61: Skagit, since we are into cut and paste and taking things out of context to support a failed policy. I don’t mind playing devils advocate.

    Skagit say’s, without by the way addressing the 6 years of inacation since the viaduct was damaged.

    “I really think you are asking for a lot. She’s thoughtful, gets information, analyses it and decides. A decision to let the taxpayers decide rather than deferring to our elitist mayor suits me fine.”

    I would say skagit that she is proceeding along the same lines as Gary Locke who you just slammed. She is doing absolutely nothing to insure the safety of the citizens of this state. She said let the voters decide. Excuse me? If we are supposed to decide everything why are we paying her? She is against initiatives, all liberals are against initiatives, unless of course they can give the Princess political cover.

    You seem pretty close to the Gov. It’s good she has some operative like you trying to cover for her but at least she could have picked someone who makes a stronger point in her behalf.

  49. 64

    Dan Rather spews:

    Roger Rabbit says:

    Could ANY of you wingnuts provide a coherent and convincing explanation of why Rossi instead of Gregoire should be sitting in the Governor’s office?

    12/18/2006 at 8:34 pm

    Besided the fact that votes were added to the largest liberal county in the State on the second recount to give Gregoire the lead for the first time, fruadulent election reports from KCRE by Garth Fell admitted by Nicole Way, or the fact that votes counted did not equal the number of ballots cast in KC. Yes. I am sure it will be brought up in 2008.

  50. 66

    spews:

    Rob @ 63

    “She is doing absolutely nothing to insure the safety of the citizens of this state. She said let the voters decide. Excuse me? If we are supposed to decide everything why are we paying her?”

    Nope…you have it wrong. She decided that the State would go with the rebuild, but gave Seattle voters a chance to buy an upgrade. That is a pretty solid decision. Furthermore, the vote will, effectively, circumvent obstructionism by Nickels or Chopp. As Balter pointed out, Gregoire’s decision is probably the fastest way to implementation.

  51. 67

    skagit spews:

    Rob, yours is an emotional argument. It lacks any substance at all. There’s not much to debate in it, is there? If it makes you feel good, I’ll concede that she is a liberal. Okay?

    Now, I believe (although I can’t remember exactly) that she included a timeline in her decision. Also, she hasn’t been in office six years. Finally, she is deferring to the wishes of our mayor and is leaving the choice to us whether or not we want to pay for a tunnel. As difficult as that is for you to understand and accept, I am comfortable with it.

    Now, is there anything else you need explained?

  52. 68

    rob spews:

    66 and 67: Regarding 66, ( the carrollers just left by the way) When this state elects Joni Balter to decide our fate I will for the second time in my life leave the state. The first time was in the military! If you are getting you guidence from Joni Balter have a good life moonbat!

    67: Skagit, is 520, the viaduct, education or the environment fixed? Is that not enough substance for your small liberal brain? Excuse me if I have emotion over the inaction of the liberals that have been running this state for the last, jesus how long has it been?

    You feeble attempt at attacking me while you are kissing Gregoires ass is pathetic. You should maybe look for a new job, ass kisser isn’t working out for you.

  53. 69

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    58 Geez, rob, that’s the most intelligent statement on ever made by a wingnut on this board this subject. But don’t let that go to your head; your comment is superficial, it’s merely deeper than other wingnut comments, which isn’t saying much.

    Executive summary: Perfection is unattainable in election administration; no election is perfect, and if we adopt a policy of invalidating every elections that has flaws, no one will ever be elected to anything and the public’s business won’t get done.

    There’s no reason to do a recount unless it might change the result. The objective of any recount is to get a more accurate count, and that’s what the recounts in the 2004 governor’s race did. Rossi did not win that election; he merely appeared to win in the first two, less accurate, counts.

    Neither the Democratic Party nor the Gregoire campaign had anything to do with illegal votes being cast in that election. That happened mostly because of the state’s confusing felon voting-rights restoration law. Republicans, who controlled the state senate continuously for 10 years preceding the 2004 election, had as much opportunity to propose remedial legislation as the Democrats did; the truth is, no one foresaw this problem before it happened.

    Nobody knows who benefitted from the illegal votes, and the judge declined to guess. The anecdotal evidence indicates that Rossi, not Gregoire, most likely got the majority of illegal votes.

    We have a system for resolving disputed elections, and it’s called an “election contest” in court. The law intentionally makes it hard to overturn elections in court, for reasons that should be obvious. To contest an election, you have the burden of proof, and you must prove that illegal votes or irregularities changed the result (i.e., you were robbed) with “clear and convincing” evidence. Rossi had his chance to do that, and couldn’t carry his burden of proof in court.

    The only thing that made this election different from all our other elections is that it was extraordinarily close. It was not “stolen.” It was close, that’s all. So close that people can argue endlessly over whether the flaws and illegal votes that occur in every election changed the result — but nobody can prove they did or didn’t. But it was not “stolen,” as Rossi partisans claim. How was it stolen? Itemize the ways you think it was “stolen,” and then I’ll refute each argument.

  54. 71

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    60 But what Republicans really excel at is bitching about taxes they don’t even pay.

  55. 72

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    For example, small business owners with a net worth less than $2.5 million bitching about paying “death taxes.” No estate worth less than $2.5 million (net) pays any inheritance taxes.

  56. 73

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And if their net worth IS over $2.5 million, they’re rich. Why should people receive millions of dollars of income from inheritance windfalls (i.e., money they did NOTHING to earn) completely tax-free, when workers get only $10,000 or so of exemptions on their wages? How is that fair?

  57. 74

    skagit spews:

    Rob, you are such an emotional guy! BTW, why did you avoid the substance in Darryl’s response and jump on the Balter part?

    Let’s dispense with Balter and discuss the gov’s decision to do the rebuild unless the City buys an upgrade.

  58. 75

    Dan Rather spews:

    Executive summary: Perfection is unattainable in election administration; no election is perfect, and if we adopt a policy of invalidating every elections that has flaws, no one will ever be elected to anything and the public’s business won’t get done.

    This is liberal code for “the dems just happen to win the election stop bringing up the fact that it was stolen we are tired of defending ourselves” heehehe

  59. 77

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    If Rossi was governor today, he’d be cutting health care for poor kids instead of building roads and bridges that make commerce and jobs possible. It’s inconceivable that Rossi would have asked the legislature to raise the gas tax or done ANYTHING about our state’s infrastructure needs.

  60. 78

    rob spews:

    Re: 69, Rodent, unlike a bunch of liberals who are still living in the past over the 2000 elections, and even some like Kieth Olberman and his faithful followers believe that the 2004 elections were somehow stolen in Ohio when wisconsin and 2 or 3 other states were within 6,000 votes in favor of Kerry and the conservatives who believe washington was stolen. I don’t waste time with that. The election system is imperfect but it is the only one we have and far better than any others I have read about. I believe we were both in Vietnam and I would rather have ours than theirs.

    A win is a win and a loss is a loss. The lawyers for the GOP were terrible and the lawyers for the Dems were good. You won we lost. Is there anymore to say about that?

  61. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    68 “is 520, the viaduct, education or the environment fixed”

    They’re more fixed, or at least in better shape, than they would be under a skinflint conservative governor.

    Demanding immediate and perfect results is an old wingnut rhetorical scam. How about if I turn it around and ask if Iraq is fixed? Should we be in Afghanistan, since Osama hasn’t been caught yet?

    Transportation, education, and the environment will never be “fixed,” rob. They’re like eating — they require continual feeding, and the value taxpayers get for their investment depends on good management.

  62. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    76 They’ll never quite whining. Whining is what they do. It’s what they live for.

  63. 83

    rob spews:

    74: Skagit, why did you avoid the substance in my response to you and again say somehow emotion is a bad thing? As for the so called substance in Daryl and his other brother Daryl’s repsonse. It was based on reinforcement by Joni Balter, not on anything else. Now if you want to remove the basis from your hypothesis and insert someone else feel free to do it.

    I still stand on my original statement that Gregoire claimed there was an emergency when she wanted to raise taxes and now… not so much. She also claimed she was going to decide whether you folks in Seattle would have a viaduct or a tunnell in December. She lied.

  64. 84

    Particle Man spews:

    Roger Rabbit @77 If Rossi were governor today, right now he would be on his knees under Kemper Freeman’s desk.

  65. 85

    rob spews:

    79: Rodent you are better than that.

    Rodent says:

    “Demanding immediate and perfect results is an old wingnut rhetorical scam. How about if I turn it around and ask if Iraq is fixed? Should we be in Afghanistan, since Osama hasn’t been caught yet?”

    The earthquake happened 9 months before 911 and 3 years before Iraq. Both Iraq and Borak Hussain Ossama involve alot more than replacing a bridge.

    You would thing that even the feeble democrats could figure out how to build a bridge.

  66. 86

    rob spews:

    79: By the way Rodent, is has been six years since the viaduct was damaged, Is that immediate in the liberal world?

  67. 87

    skagit spews:

    rob says:
    Skagit, why did you avoid the substance in my response to you?

    There was no substance.

    It was based on reinforcement by Joni Balter. . .

    Reinforcement is not a basis. Now, speak to his basis. Refute it or concede.

    Now if you want to remove the basis from your hypothesis and insert someone else feel free to do it.

    I don’t even know what this means? What hypothesis? Who else would I insert? Do you know what this means?

    I still stand on my original statement that Gregoire claimed there was an emergency when she wanted to raise taxes and now… not so much. She also claimed she was going to decide whether you folks in Seattle would have a viaduct or a tunnell in December. She lied.

    She’s decided. It will be a retrofit. But, we can buy up if we want to. That’s called democracy. But. I think you may be more comfortable with dictatorship. She didn’t lie.

  68. 88

    skagit spews:

    Rob: You would thing that even the feeble democrats could figure out how to build a bridge.

    Maybe we’re asking Republican engineers. That would explain it.

  69. 89

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    78 I will give you credit for having the maturity to say it’s over and time to move on, which is more maturity than any other wingnut on this blog and 90% of this state’s Republicans have exhibited to date.

    However, if you are implying Gregoire won because “the lawyers for the GOP were terrible and the lawyers for the Dems were good,” I disagree with you. Gregoire won because she had more votes after all the votes were counted.

    To be specific, she was ahead by 8 votes after the hand recount was completed and before the King County canvassing board considered the disputed ballots from King County, so the KC canvassing board did NOT change the result. The canvassing board’s disposition of the disputed ballots resulted in Gregoire netting 121 more votes, and the election contest resulted in 4 fraudulent votes being subtracted from Rossi’s total. Net result, 133 votes.

    BTW, many of the “disputed” ballots sent to the canvassing board were slamdunks. I was a recount observer for the Democrats, and I watched a crazy Republican counter put dozens of ballots in the “disputed” pile. She challenged them for frivolous and whimsical reasons, and all of them went to the board, because that was how the process worked — nobody on the counting floor had authority to overturn any counter’s decision to dispute a ballot, even if it was total bullshit. A handful of idiots like her clogged up the canvassing board process with ballots that had nothing wrong with them, which is one of the reasons the canvassing board took as long as it did to come in with the final results.

    Getting back to the lawyers, Rossi was represented by Davis Wright Tremaine, one of the two largest corporate law firms in Washington state. The other largest corporate law firm in our state is Perkins Coie, who represented the Democrats. DWT lawyers are excellent. They come from the country’s best law schools, they are the brightest lawyers our educational system and the rigorous big-law-firm hiring process can produce, they are top-notch in every way. So you can’t blame it on stupid or incompetent lawyers. They lost because they had a bad case. There was just nothing to work with.

    For all the blathering by Rossi partisans over a “stolen” election, it’s worth mentioning that Rossi’s lawyers never alleged the election was “stolen,” because they knew it wasn’t.

  70. 90

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    83 “emergency” in the context of the legislative process is technical terminology that means something different from the vernacular meaning of the term.

  71. 91

    spews:

    Rob @ 68

    “If you are getting you guidence from Joni Balter have a good life moonbat!”

    Ummm…sorry, dipshit, there is a difference between “getting guidance” versus pointing out someone who published a similar opinion. The empty rhetoric makes it look like you lack any substantive argument to counter my statement.

  72. 92

    rob spews:

    87: Skagit lies for Gregoir and says:

    “She’s decided. It will be a retrofit. But, we can buy up if we want to. That’s called democracy. But. I think you may be more comfortable with dictatorship. She didn’t lie.”

    You have breaking news there skagit, all of the local news missed the part where the Princess has decided. You should call the Times and the P-I! As for Daryl and his other brother Daryl, if she dosen’t have enough power as governor to ensure that an unsafe highway is replaced (uhmmm I don’t know by maybe WITHHOLDING OTHER FUNDS FOR OTHER PROJECTS) then is there a point in having a governor who is in charge of state roads?

  73. 93

    skagit spews:

    And, Roger’s right. Gregoire was ahead after the handcount and before all those contested ballots on which you all keep dwelling.

    But, I’m sure you have a whine for those eight as well.

  74. 94

    skagit spews:

    No sense arguing with a wingnut who has fallen the edge and no longer makes sense. Better to tangle with a crocodile.

    Nightie night, Rob.

  75. 95

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    85, 86 – It’s not been clear at all for the last 6 years that the viaduct had to be replaced; in fact, repairing it was under active discussion until a few days ago. Gregoire has been in office since January 2005, not since 2001. She went to work immediately on the transportation issues, and the STATE MONEY IS IN PLACE to replace AWV. She has done her part. You talk like Gregoire has done nothing about AWV; that’s bullshit. Locke did nothing about AWV. The GOP state senate majority did nothing about AWV — all they did was block transportation funding for 10 years. After Gregoire did something about AWV, Republicans tried to undo it by floating an initiative to repeal the gas tax that provides the funding to “fix” AWV. What is the alternative to Gregoire? There is none. With Gregoire as governor, AWV will be replaced. If we had to depend on Republicans to do it, it would never happen.

  76. 96

    rob spews:

    93: Skagit, you have to get off the smoke. What part of “I believe she won and is our governor” doesn’t your little liberal brain comprehend?

  77. 97

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Laura Bush killed a guy. The Bush twins are drunken whores. The Bush family loves terrorists. That is all.

  78. 98

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    93 As I said, I was a recount observer. I was standing there when the King County officials posted the hand recount results. I was one of the first people in the state to know Gregoire came out of the hand recount with a lead of 8 votes, before the canvassing board met.

  79. 99

    rob spews:

    95: Rodent, take a break. Locke was a two term Democrat Governor of this state. He was a failure and I am not seeing any improvement with Gregoire.

  80. 101

    spews:

    Rob @ 83

    “She also claimed she was going to decide whether you folks in Seattle would have a viaduct or a tunnell in December. She lied.”

    Like you, I initially thought Gregoire punted. But anything beyond a superficial analysis shows that that is not the case.

    In fact, she did decide. Essentially, the default option is the rebuild. But she gave Seattle an option to purchase an upgrade if they act quickly (“Buy two upgrades…they make a perfect Christmas gift!”). If Seattle chooses, they can (1) provide a concrete finance plan for the tunnel (without drawing more State money) and (2) select the tunnel upgrade by popular vote. If either of these fail, the viaduct rebuild option continues to go forward.

  81. 102

    rob spews:

    98: Now I feel better rodent, knowing that an unbiased citizen like you decided the outcome of the governors election. I may have to rethink my statement regarding that I conceded that Gregoire won.

  82. 104

    rob spews:

    101: in fact the only decision made was in your hope that you didn’t elect an idiot. She dicided that she wasn’t going to decide and let the voter decide. Did you miss something in that dipshit?

  83. 105

    skagit spews:

    Give up, Darryl. Don’t you know by now you cannot argue with an emotional and biased rightwinger. They hear, see and smell what they want to. There is no way to sensibly debate them. They lack the critical thinking needed for such sophisticated analysis.

    Look at his last sentence:she has to decide by “default”. . . He’s not even aware of his own tangling and distortion of your very clear sentence. He is insipid.

  84. 107

    spews:

    Rob @ 103

    “Nice of you to admit that she has to decide by “default” dipshit.”

    Hmmm…either you didn’t understand my sentence (“Essentially, the default option is the rebuild.”), or you don’t understand what the word “default” means. Let me rephrase for you:

    Essentially, her decision is that the default option is the rebuild….

    I hope that clears it up for you, asswipe.

  85. 108

    rob spews:

    105: take her up on daryl and tell you other brother daryl, you can’t win so give up like skagit did and try win by personal attacks. Face it moonbats, the facts just aren’t on your side.

  86. 109

    rob spews:

    107: funny that the only place this is published is in a blog. I missed the statement by Gregoire that if Seattle voted down the tunnel they had to have a Viaduct. Could you provide a link to that? I am sure it is my mistake, or Bush’s

  87. 110

    spews:

    Rob @ 104

    “in fact the only decision made was in your hope that you didn’t elect an idiot.”

    Cool…Now that’s a sentence to add to my list of psycowingnutbabble non sequiturs.

    “She dicided that she wasn’t going to decide and let the voter decide. Did you miss something in that dipshit?”

    So…what are you up to now, Rob…five shots? Six?

  88. 112

    rob spews:

    110 and 111, Daryl glad to see you gave up like skagit did, I am still waiting for the link re: 109.

  89. 114

    spews:

    Rob @ 107

    Could you provide a link to that?

    Try reading the Governor’s press release on the subject.

    Sheesh…we have to spoon feed everything to you wingnuts.

    I am sure it is my mistake, or Bush’s

    It’s your mistake (provisionally—we’ll find a way to drag Bush into this).

  90. 116

    skagit spews:

    I can do that. Anybody stupid enough to vote for Bush is stupid enough not to understand intelligent debate when it is blogged . . .

  91. 117

    skagit spews:

    The link is there. Perhaps you need braille? I don’t think Darryl’s computer is set up for that.

  92. 118

    rob spews:

    114, thank your brother for me Darryl, She did give two options. My mistake. So a year from now we will see what happens.

  93. 119

    skagit spews:

    Governor Gregoire has directed the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) to continue work on both alternatives, so we can start construction on schedule in 2008.

    From Darryl’s link. If no vote or if voters vote “no” the rebuild will begin in 2008. So, not only do you have a decision but a timeline as well.

  94. 120

    rob spews:

    Skagit, you are completely worthless. At least Darryl and his brother darryl can back up what they say as I can. You unfortunatley can’t do it.

  95. 122

    rob spews:

    skagit says:

    Governor Gregoire has directed the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) to continue work on both alternatives, so we can start construction on schedule in 2008.

    From Darryl’s link. If no vote or if voters vote “no” the rebuild will begin in 2008. So, not only do you have a decision but a timeline as well.

    That is a wonderful use of taxpayers money. We will design two projects and only use one! Nice job Decider!

  96. 123

    rob spews:

    You tell me how you feel skagit, I mean about spending taxpayer money to design two projects whe you know one won’t be used?

    I don’t feel good about it, but what’s 10 or 12 million between friends.

  97. 125

    rob spews:

    124: maybe, if I have one can I ignore facts like liberals do? Maybe I just need to start smoking the pot with you and the Princess.

  98. 126

    ManofTruth spews:

    Lot of babbling trolls in this thread. Can`t understand someone making a decision and sticking to it apparently.

    Anyone that thinks that if a tunnel is built the result will be an open waterfront with public space is smoking bad crack. The only people that will benefit from a tunnel are the developer friends of Mayor Porkie when they build that Wall o`Condos on top of the tunnel.

    If you want a tunnel then dig deep into your pockets clowns. We can name it Porkie`s Folly when the final bill is added up. Should come in around US$10 billion given how these projects tend to grow into corruption generators.

  99. 127

    skagit spews:

    I’m actually not going to waste my time explaining to you how doing the preliminary work has to be done regardless of which option is decided upon. You wouldn’t get it anyway.

  100. 128

    My Left Foot spews:

    Robbie baby @ 122:

    Bush is the decider. He decided to invade Iraq. He decided to invade Iraq without a plan. He decided to trash the Iraq Study Group report. He has decided to send more troops when EVERY SINGLE EXPERT and GENERAL has said no more. He has decided that he is the smartest guy in the room. He decided this with nothing to back it up.

    80% of the American people have decided he has his head up his ass. Keep it up. We have the house and senate, next comes the executive offices too.

    By the way, Darryl proved his point, you have only proved what an asshole you are.

    Funny how that works.

  101. 129

    rob spews:

    127: Skagit, there is no preliminary work that needs to be done on an option that you are not going to build. I have been in the construction business since 1978 so what are your credentials other than ass kisser and moonbat?

  102. 131

    skagit spews:

    BTW, let me know the name of your construction company. I want to be sure I know who to avoid. The last guy I had didn’t do the “preliminary” work either and I’m still paying for it.

    I wonder if it was you?

  103. 132

    ManofTruth spews:

    I have been in the construction business since 1978

    Ah ha !

    So that`s why the UW stadium fell down the first time when the extension was tried. Obvious now.

    So where are you getting the spray paint you are huffing these days ?

  104. 133

    rob spews:

    128: How are things with you left foot, for one thing Bush and Rumsfeld have been bashed by the press and liberals and retired generals for not sending enough troops. Where did you get the idea he decided to send more? As for the Iraq Surrender Group, they seem to have dissapeared, where are they now?

    As for Darrly and his other brother Darryl I admitted that he was right and I was wrong…see 118 if you can read and it isn’t your dog typing for you.

  105. 141

    skagit spews:

    You know, Rob, this whole debate was based on Gregoire’s new conference which I referenced way back. I guess you’re the only one who didn’t know that.

    While we were trying to talk facts, you were pulling it out of your ass.

    ‘nuf said?

  106. 142

    ManofTruth spews:

    i really don’t have time for incoherrant idiots.

    Then how can you live with yourself ?

    You might try using your spelling checker BTW & put the spray paint can down.

  107. 143

    rob spews:

    Skagit, I scrolled up again and missed any credentials you may or may not have. Want to try again?

  108. 144

    rob spews:

    142: I don’t use a spellchecker moonbat, did you not understand something i said? Or is this a spelling class?

  109. 148

    rob spews:

    darryl, are you the ex writer for the hooker advertisement paper or am I confusing you with another blogger here?

  110. 149

    ManofTruth spews:

    I don’t use a spellchecker

    well DUH, that`s intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

    CLUELESS you are

    He is clearly a case of paint huffing folks.

  111. 151

    rob spews:

    149: So you are saying you guys sniff spray paint. Ha, who would have thought about that. Liberals I guess. Man of Truth? Do you have anything to say except personal attacks from you mom’s basement? I didn’t think so.

  112. 152

    spews:

    Rob @ 149

    “darryl, are you the ex writer for the hooker advertisement paper or am I confusing you with another blogger here?”

    I’m not sure what publication you refer to, but I stongly suspect you are confused.

  113. 153

    rob spews:

    Looks like skagit had to run away and hid when asked about it’s credentials. Liberals are so predictable.

  114. 154

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    I GOT NEWS FOR YOU FOLKS. WE’RE GOING TO GET THE NO-BUILD OPTION WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, NO MATTER WHAT OPTION IS EVENTUALLY SELECTED. IN FACT WE’RE GOING TO GET WORSE THAN THE NO BUILD.

    AT LEAST TEMPORARILY WHILE ONE OF THE OTHER TWO ARE BEING BUILT! DID ANYONE THINK OF THAT?

    THERE’S NOT ENOUGH MONEY FOR A TUNNEL AND A REBUILD WOULD BE A TRAGEDY SO WORK FROM HOME, TAKE THE BUS, START A NEW FERRY FROM WEST SEATTLE – DEAL WITH IT. IF YOU CAN DEAL WITH SOMETHING WORSE TEMPORARILY, YOU CAN DEAL WITH SOMETHING SLIGHTLY BETTER AT LEAST UNTIL TIMES ARE A LOT BETTER.

    NO BUILD!

  115. 155

    skagit spews:

    Rob, you owe us all an apology. Now be a good boy and just say “I’m sorry.” You’ll feel better if you do.

  116. 156

    rob spews:

    152. Really? Have you ever read the Seattle Weekly, It has all the hooker ads. Not that I am against it, that is how i found Darcy.

  117. 162

    spews:

    STILL CONFUSED

    WADR to the Roger Rarebit, I realize fully that I99 is a state highway and that the state has agreed to pay for a no improvements replacement. I also understand that Seattle benefits from any improvements, BUT:

    If the numbers I have seen are correct, SEATTLE benefits very little from through traffic. We need better access into and out of the city to the N and S. I have seen no data claiming that s replacement viaduct will improve access to Seattle. On the contrary, the widened Viaduct os likely to harm downtown traffic and that itself is a good argument for a surface or tunnel route.

    WADR to the transportation Dept, their charge was and is to replace I99, as a STATE highway.

    So,as simple questions of fact, does anyone know:

    1. What portion of current I99 traffic is thru as opposed to into/out of Seattle?

    2. Of this, what portion is commercial traffic and how would the commercial traffic be affected by being rerouted through Bellevue.

    3. what opportunities are there for increasing capacity of 405 or other Eastside highways?

    4. To what extent are the much higher real estate taxes in Seattle (vs Bellevue) a reflection of regional costs born by the City?

  118. 163

    rob spews:

    159: I didn’t say I was confused, I haven’t read the Seattle Weekly since I found Darcy, are you saying there are no more hooker ads in it?

  119. 164

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    SORRY SKAGIT. WE SHOUT IN OUR FAMILY. CELEBRATE DIVERSITY!

    ROB: YOU’RE A SILLY WINGNUT. YOUR KIND LOST. DEAL WITH IT. BUSH IS AN IDIOT. A VERY EXPENSIVE IDIOT.

    YOU’RE AN IDIOT IF YOU WORSHIPED HIM LIKE ALL THE OTHER BUSH-WORSHIPING WINGNUTS – HINDERAKER, HEWITT, MALKIN, REYNOLDS, BARNES, SHARANSKY, ETC.

  120. 165

    ManofTruth spews:

    how i found Darcy

    Folks, just to clear things up for you, Darcy is his dog

    What a basket case. Appears to be a junior high kid huffing spray paint.

    So sad…

  121. 167

    skagit spews:

    I don’t think Darryl is particularly interested in discussing hooker ads with you. Just a guess . . .

  122. 169

    ManofTruth spews:

    You certainly are sorry. A very sorry excuse for a human being.

    Tell your English teacher tomorrow that you flunked Blogging 101 tonight. You do still have English lessons in junior high school these days don`t you ?

  123. 170

    rob spews:

    167? Uhmm River…county…indian tribe. I was asking him to discuss hooker ads. I was asking his brother Darrly if he used to work for the Seattle Weekly who’s mainstay is hooker ads.

    Let me ask Bluntly, Darrly, did you or your other brother Darryl ever work for or work now for the Seattle Weekly?

  124. 171

    spews:

    Rob @ 162, in an apparent state of confusion, said, “I didn’t say I was confused”

    Yet…Rob @ 149 said, “[A]m I confusing you with another blogger here?

    Yep…it seems you’re confused2.

    (Hope that clears up both.)

  125. 172

    rob spews:

    Thanks Darryl see 170, why is it so hard to get you liberals to answer questions about yourself?

  126. 173

    rob spews:

    Darryl says:

    Rob @ 156

    Yep…you’re confused.

    12/18/2006 at 11:30 pm

    Darryl, you were talking about my post at 156, now you are talking about my post at 149. Who is confused here?

  127. 174

    skagit spews:

    I hear Darcy calling . . . go to bed, Rob.

    sayeth the wise voices of the streams that merge into the greatest river of them all, the Skagit River

  128. 177

    spews:

    Rob @ 172

    [W]hy is it so hard to get you liberals to answer questions about yourself?

    I cannot speak for all liberals, but in my case, I assume that anyone with a brain over 400 cc can follow the link to my blog, click on the “about me” link, and learn all “about me.” That page contains a link to my curriculum vitae, which lists my professional publications. The Seattle Weekly is not among them.

  129. 178

    spews:

    Rob @ 173

    “Darryl, you were talking about my post at 156, now you are talking about my post at 149. Who is confused here?”

    You.

  130. 179

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @99 If you think Gregoire is no improvement over Locke, either you haven’t been paying attention, or you have different priorities than most of the people on this LIBERAL blog.

  131. 180

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Locke was a do-nothing governor, but that wasn’t entirely his fault. His hands were tied by the GOP-controlled state senate. Nothing could get done in this state until the voters tossed the GOP senators out on their asses. Now things are happening very quickly.

  132. 181

    rob spews:

    177. why thanks darryl, I could also either hire a private investigator or I could do something really wild and ask you. Now that wasn’t so hard was it?

  133. 182

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    102 How the hell did you manage to extrapolate “I decided the election” from the fact I observed the posting of the recount results? I’m curious about how your thoguht process works. No … on second thought, I’m not.

  134. 184

    rob spews:

    182: either you had something to do with the election or you didn’t. If you didn’t why were you there? I wasn’t there, to much rodent crap on the floor for me.

  135. 186

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Rob gets increasingly incoherent as this thread progresses, so I think that’s as far as I’ll go in responding to him. You can’t debate a fence post.

  136. 189

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    126 That’s a good point that hasn’t been addressed yet — the fact the advertised bait-and-switch price of the tunnel isn’t the real price we’ll pay for it.

  137. 190

    rob spews:

    Have you ever noticed all the liberals left on the side of the road about this time though rodent. It always comes down to just me and you.

  138. 191

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    After they tear down the viaduct and start digging a hole, the contractors can raise their price at will. Remember how Kiewit & Sons walked off the Kingdome job after the first roof arch was jacked into position because the county wouldn’t pay their ransom demands?

  139. 192

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    190 WTF do you expect at 12:30 AM? Only the nocturnal rodents are up at this time of night. I’m a rabbit … what are you? A sewer rat?

  140. 194

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    128 “80% of the American people have decided he has his head up his ass. Keep it up. We have the house and senate, next comes the executive offices too.”

    I predict that if Bush is impeached, it will be a Republican who introduces the impeachment resolution. At some point, Republican politicians have to think about the survival of their own careers, which won’t survive if their party doesn’t. There have got to be Republican pols wondering right now if this guy is going to take them all down, and calculating whether they can wait out the next two years.

  141. 196

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    129 “I have been in the construction business since 1978″

    That — and the dented hardhats in your closet — explains everything.

  142. 197

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    183 Not really. It was Gingrich’s fault. Bush wasn’t around in ’94 when the GOPers took over the WA state senate — and for the next 10 years stymied all governance and public investment in this state.

  143. 199

    rob spews:

    194: Well you elected speaker Pelosi, who after she got her latest face stretching backed, John (redeploy to Guam, 5,000 miles away with a “quick strike force” of course even the democrats couldn’t stand him and he was beat like a well like a rented mule.) Then she put up Alcee (impeached judge with streatch face voting for impeachemt) as chairman of the intelligence committie. That failed so she put up Slyvester Reyes, who didn’t have a clue who AL Quieda memebers were or even if ther was a group called Hesbollah. These were her first three moves as unconfirmed Democrat Majority leader.

    The reason I brought up her laughable record is that this same genious who controls the house where impeachment must start, said Impeachment is off the table.

    You voted for her rodent, how is that impeachment looking to you now?

  144. 201

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    wow! this thread is already up to 200 posts! That’s more than the sucky little jihad blog gets in a year. Maybe hoping terrorists down a domestic airliner so Republicans can win elections doesn’t sell very well on Main Street.

  145. 204

    rob spews:

    rodent, the only time this site gets this high is when i am here. I am still waiting for the check goldy? Come on it will help me pay my taxes.

  146. 209

    My Left Foot spews:

    Rob at too many to list:

    Now that the booze and alcohol have hit full tilt on your two remaing brain cells, did you notice that Darryl is no idiot? Did you also surmise that you are hopelessly outgunned in the mental capacity department when you decided to call him out? Just exactly how long have you been stuck on stupid?

    You have achieved IGNORANUS status. Not only are you stupid, but you are a world class asshole too.

    Congratulations!

  147. 211

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    No point in hopping up the hill tonight, because Stefan’s garden is frozen hard as a rock. He’s too cheap to heat a greenhouse. Fucking Republican. Just for that, I’ll shit in the park instead of his lawn, and he can get rabbit pellets somewhere else.

  148. 212

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I wonder how Stefan’s lawsuit against Dean Logan and King County is coming along? I haven’t heard him bragging about it recently, so either he lost, or he’s bogged down in discovery. Stefan wants taxpayers to give him money because the county, in response to his public records request, gave him only 600,000 documents, free use of a meeting room for 6 weeks, and a full-time county staffer to wait on him.

  149. 213

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    208 “now rodent abatement is mandatory”

    Don’t do it, rob! No matter how much your problems are weighing on you, suicide is not the answer! Once you call the exterminator, you can’t take it back.

  150. 214

    righton spews:

    goldy, per your “i cant believe they built a xxxing freeway on the waterfront”

    how about, I can’t believe they took 5 yrs debating a simple replacement (plus 1 lane for hov) to connect Seattle to the worlds most famous software company and also the residential areas with the highest growth rates and worst traffic.

    what a screwed up region….that debates add nauseum and still never gets the work done? Note to the sane folks reading….just add 3 yrs to whatever DOT promises, though i guess once they get 1/2 way through their estimate might then get more accurate..

  151. 215

    Rod spews:

    Darryl,

    Thank you for a very concise analysis of why the diminished capcity options, ie. the surface + transit options should be seen as non-starters, and why the Governor was wise to eliminate it.
    I, for one, love the tunnel. Really, really, love the tunnel. That damned elevated structure runs through the most economically important real estate west of the Mississippi and north of the Golden Gate Bridge. Millions of dollars of trade cross that area daily. It’s not just the north-south traffic, either, since the Colman Dock is a vital link to the West as well. And, we’re not just talking about about industry.

    I applaud (but not too loudly), your highlighting the contribution the elevated options add to noise polution. I visted the Aquarium with my 4 year old nephew a few months ago. As we were walking to lvars for lunch he was excitedly telling me something, I assume about the experience of the Aquarium, but whatever it was his words were smothered by the road noise of the viaduct. Elevated structures are like the banjos of traffic noise, they amplify and project it.

    I think it will be easy to underestimate value of the tunnel option in improving one’s experience of the waterfront. As such, the state and the city can expect huge increases in property values, and thus, property tax revenues for building in the immediate area; values that have been significantly depressed by the existing, noisey structure.

    Which leads me to wonder what the deal is with Chopp’s opposition to the tunnel? There is no question that for his consituents who have property around Alaskan way (the road, whatever it is runs right through his constituency) would be best served by a tunnel. The downtown core, which he represents, would be best served by a tunnel. Taking the cost out of the picture, you’d have to wonder who would prefer to build an elevated structure that is 50% larger than the exisiting structure. Maybe he just likes the view, but he won’t even have that as the safety barriers will allow drivers only to see the tops of the gantries. I would even think that Labor would prefer a tunnel since it is likely to provide more construction jobs. So who is he representing?