RE: Priorities…

A three decade snapshot of WA's "out of control" government

A three decade snapshot of WA's "out of control" government. (Source: WA OFM)

Yesterday I posted a couple graphs showing how Washington state has chosen to devote an increasingly larger portion of our economy toward imprisoning our citizens, at the same time we’re devoting an ever smaller portion toward educating them. I leave it to you to judge the wisdom of such spending priorities.

Today’s graph is also about priorities, in that it shows that when push comes to shove over the past fifteen years, our lawmakers have consistently chosen to keep taxes low. Indeed, between 1994 and 2001 WA’s rank in state and local taxes as a percentage of personal income dropped from 11th nationwide to 32nd. And WA has remained below the national average since 2000; it stood at 30th in 2008.

It is true that revenues briefly rebounded between 2003 and 2007, but this was not due to legislative action. Rather, easy consumer credit and a booming housing market spurred consumer spending, resulting in a surge in taxes relative to personal income in this heavily sales tax dependent state. But even this bump in revenue—and subsequent bump in spending, largely to fund the class size and teachers pay initiatives—left both spending and revenue near the bottom end of the fifteen year average.

Republicans and their surrogates on the editorial boards insist that our current budget crisis is the result of profligate government spending, but this simply isn’t true. With consumer spending having collapsed in advance of incomes, and recovering at a much slower pace, combined state and local government in the next biennium will consume a smaller portion of our state economy than at any time in the past three decades, and a substantially smaller portion than it did just fifteen years ago.

So as the Governor and the Legislature prepare to make all those tough budget choices—largely consisting of slashing spending on education and health care—remember… this is their choice. There are two sides to a budget, revenue and spending, and how we balance the two depends on our priorities.

Washington has chosen to become and remain a low tax state, come hell or high water, and with all the negative impact this lack of public investment will bring on future economic growth… not to mention the inevitable immediate suffering of the poor, the sick and the young.

Comments

  1. 1

    socialist bob spews:

    how bout a graph showing state/local govt workers & payroll relative to population since 1970. this state does have a regressive tax structure problem, a very unfair one, but also has a wildly bloated govt. there are many shoes yet to drop, state workers unfunded pensions etc etc. and unintended consequences, ie, bet after they start tolling 520 they don’t get 2/3 the revenue they claim, but i90 and 522 will bear much more traffic.. how bout a list of all the b&o exemptions, relative to what the middle tier of biz pays..

  2. 2

    Xar spews:

    @1: The only pension plans that are underfunded are PERS and TERS 1, closed plans. They are underfunded because of many years of legislators (Democrats AND Republicans) chronically raiding the pension funds and not putting the recommended amount of money in each year.

    PERS 2 & 3 are fine, and well-funded. The state’s been steering new employees into PERS 3 for years. PERS 3 is a defined contribution plan with no defined benefit.

    State government has some fat that could be cut. But it’s not the source of the problem, and cutting it isn’t the solution.

  3. 3

    LD spews:

    Don’t you think Gregoire was given a clear direction in November to cut the crap out of government? Instead of going after the bloated middle management, wages, benefits and retirements that are unsustainable, she chose to hurt the poorest.

    This is NOT a revenue problem, it is a PRIORITIES problem.

    The Revenue problem is because the rest of the non-government world is getting their ass kicked with layoffs, joblessness, and stagnant wage and benefit cuts.

    Whats right for the private goose is about to hit the public dole.

  4. 4

    spews:

    bob @1,

    No, growth in state government FTEs have largely tracked population growth for decades, and is, of course, trailing it in recent years.

    http://www.ofm.wa.gov/trends/budget/fig401.asp

    I don’t have local numbers, but I can assure that I-747 has severely constrained local governments at all levels.

    I’m not saying that there isn’t room for efficiency, but this idea that we have a wildly bloated government simply isn’t backed up by the numbers.

  5. 5

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “suffering of the poor, the sick and the young”

    Of course, the anti-tax crowd doesn’t give a damn about them.

  6. 7

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “also has a wildly bloated govt.”

    Really? Would you like to specify where? Do you think DSHS is “wildly bloated” because they have so few caseworkers that licensed day care providers get a visit only once every 3 years when they renew their licenses? Do you think state game law enforcement is “wildly bloated” in Lewis and Cowlitz counties, which don’t have even one game warden? Do you think Child Protective Services, whose caseworkers have hundreds of files stacked up on their desks, is “wildly bloated”? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

  7. 8

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @1, @2 – PERS and TERS 1 retirees paid in their 6% of salary to these pension funds all their working lives. Legislators didn’t pony up the employer contributions. That’s the same thing as a private business owner not paying his employees for work that has already been performed. We should, if necessary, transfer funds from legislators’ pension accounts into PERS 1 and TERS 1.

  8. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @3 Yep, right on cue, along comes a wingnut chanting the Wingnut Mantra that the public sector has no financial problems that can’t be cured by (1) letting the rich continue to pay no taxes, and (2) expecting public employees to work for nothing. State workers are NOT overpaid. The number of state employees living in million-dollar view homes in Seattle is ZERO. The number of state employees driving new Porsches is ZERO. Why do idiots like you think people should live in poverty simply because they work for government in jobs that benefit the public? Go fuck yourself.

  9. 11

    2cents spews:

    @9
    Al the state worker’s pal Mr Cynical is fixated on the GDP. Perhaps state worker’s pay should track with that.

  10. 12

    Blue John spews:

    “also has a wildly bloated government.”
    I also would love to know where he thinks government is bloated. Or is it just a conservative dog whistle term that he cannot back up?

  11. 13

    spews:

    (Spoken in the tone one would use when speaking to a preschool-age child) …

    Goldy, which state do you wish we were more like?

  12. 14

    spews:

    Blue @ 12

    My roads need some major fixing. There’s plenty of homeless mentally ill people. Lot’s of hungry children. Habitat is still being destroyed at an alarming rate. Predator corporations are fleecing people with cons and high pressure tactics.

    Etc. Etc.

    If anything, our government is skeletal, if that.

  13. 16

    spews:

    @15

    No, Goldy is bemoaning that Washington state isn’t taxed more. I’m wondering which U.S. state he wishes we were more like.

  14. 17

    rhp6033 spews:

    RR @ 9: “…The number of state employees living in million-dollar view homes in Seattle is ZERO….”

    Well, with the possible exception of the U.W. head football coach (but I honestly don’t know where he lives).

  15. 18

    Politically Incorrect spews:

    Maybe being a “low-tax” state will convince those on the dole to leave and go to more favorable places, like California or New York. Certainly the welfare programs there are more generous.

    After all, if you don’t feed a stray dog, he or she doesn’t hang around very long.

  16. 19

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    asshole @ 18. So tell, fuckwad, how many people in this state are ‘on the dole’? Don’t know? Didn’t think so.

    FOAD

  17. 21

    Rujax! spews:

    20. Troll spews:

    Everyone, take note that Goldy is afraid to answer my question.

    12/23/2010 at 2:56 pm

    Troll…please take note that NOBODY…especially Goldy I’ll presume…gives a flying fuck about you OR your question.

  18. 22

    spews:

    @21

    Then is that why when Goldy is asked a hard-hitting question, often his reaction is to quickly manufacture new posts?

    Goldy, you and Lee make all the new posts you want. Everyone knows you didn’t answer my question.

  19. 24

    2cents spews:

    @13 & 22
    That’s a hard hitting question? Sounds like you’re channelling Barbara Walters with her “If you were a tree, what kind would you be?” question.

  20. 25

    spews:

    Troll @ 16

    My bad. I misunderstood your intent. I thought you wanted a benchmark to measure ourselves against. I mistakenly assumed you wanted a policy discussion, vs a political tantrum.

    Won’t happen again.

  21. 26

    spyder spews:

    From Harper’s monthly January 2011 index:

    Amount CA spent last year on each minor in its juvenile-detention system: $224,712

    Amount CA spent on each student (ADA per pupil allocation) in the Oakland public school system: $4,945

    Essentially we are training the bulk/mass our children to be institutionalized for the rest of their lives.

  22. 27

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Essentially, liberals have destroyed the family structure. Particularly in African American communities such as Oakland. What is the result? Duh! Kids grow up in poverty. They drop out of high school at enormous rates. They murder each other. Democrat welfare programs created this nightmare, whether intentionally, or not. Anyone can look at the historic crime rate statistics in African American communities. The carnage after the disintegration of traditional families is glaring. If leftists were honest with themselves they would admit that their programs have been a tragic failure. The awful truth is leftists really don’t care how many young African Americans die every weekend in Americas’ inner cities. Not as long as African Americans can be relied upon to vote for Democrats.

  23. 28

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    27. Bill Cruchon spews:

    Essentially, liberals have destroyed the family structure. Particularly in African American communities such as Oakland. What is the result? Duh! Kids grow up in poverty. They drop out of high school at enormous rates. They murder each other. Democrat welfare programs created this nightmare, whether intentionally, or not. Anyone can look at the historic crime rate statistics in African American communities. The carnage after the disintegration of traditional families is glaring. If leftists were honest with themselves they would admit that their programs have been a tragic failure. The awful truth is leftists really don’t care how many young African Americans die every weekend in Americas’ inner cities. Not as long as African Americans can be relied upon to vote for Democrats.

    12/23/2010 at 7:41 pm

    Prove that asshole…

    …and FUCK you…where do you get that shit? Links? Cites? DIRECT EXPERIENCE??? Or are you (most likely) just pulling the shit out of your ass…

  24. 29

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Lots of very direct personal experience. Including a fine young African American man I hired and mentored who ended up being murdered at age 26.

    And how do you wonderful people respond? With obscenities. You are cowards for not examining the horrific damage your ideology has done. The blood spilled in the African American community is on your hands. You need to grow up and deal with it.

  25. 30

    spews:

    Been a long time Cruchon – since 1/23/2010. You blathered some silliness about rules..

    Every day your heroes like Limbaugh, Hannity, Murdoch, Scaife and the rest LIE Cruchon – they LIE.. They promulgate lies and finance the production of more and more LIES.

    And you repeat those myths and fairy tales and delusions with every comment.

    Good news for you. Karl Rove said yesterday that Hilary Clinton will resign as SecState in 2014 to write a book and prepare to run in 2016. IN 2014. That means 8 years of Barack Obama. Was he lying?

    You should have stayed away.

  26. 31

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    @29…

    Again…fuck you.

    If you are a clownservative…I submit that it is YOUR ideology’s systematic segregation and persecution of minorities coupled with the disintegration of the middle class and the lack of upward economic mobility brought about by corporations shipping living wage jobs out of this country…that is responsible for the fucking mess we’re in. YOUR ideaolgy this fucking Reaganist horseshit that has been the operating philosophy of government and economics.

    WHAT???? TRHIRTY years to be proved WTRONG isn’t enough for you?

    But all this a just a LITTLE beyond your dumbshit sound bite mentality…isn’t it?

    Merry Fucking Christmas asshole.

  27. 33

    Blue John spews:

    @29. I get that you think liberal policies are a failure.

    That raises an interesting question.
    What places have a large African American community and strong conservative values and programs?
    What can you give us as examples of what you would like us to go to?
    Who’s doing it well?
    Who should we be copying?

  28. 35

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Posting here a couple times a year is so refreshing. I just sit back and watch the lack of civility. The non-stop flow of obscenities. The demonstrated inability for intellectual self-examination. It would be a lot more humorous if you leftists weren’t also responsible for the deaths of millions of innocent unborn children. You are also responsible for the deaths of thousands of African Americans in our inner cities, and you know it. You haven’t got the guts it takes to face it because you really aren’t grown-ups. Grown-ups clean up the messes they’ve made and take responsibility for their bad decisions. Liberals never, ever do that.

  29. 36

    Blue John spews:

    @35. I thought I was being civil in @33. All states are not alike. What places/states have a large African American community and strong conservative values and programs?
    Who should we be copying?

  30. 37

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    You know the answer, Blue John. There aren’t any. Liberals and African American liberal activists have made sure that an an African American community with conservative family values cannot exist. You know this is true. When conservative African Americans speak out they are pilloried by the left. What possible chance do they have to establish a community where families are valued? Of course there aren’t large African American communities with strong conservative values and programs. The left has spent the last 40 years preventing that from occurring. That would prove the left wrong, it would lift African Americans from government dependence. They might even vote for the real good guys. That’s the last thing the left wants.

  31. 38

    Blue John spews:

    @37. Then I afraid you have not done a good job of justifying your position. You have your strong opinions but you don’t have facts. I cannot justify moving away from a liberal point of view, if there are NO successful conservative templates to move to.
    I personally think that’s because too many conservatives are racist and homophobic and sexist and economic royalists, but that’s just my opinion.

  32. 39

    Blue John spews:

    For example, was it liberals or conservatives who imposed the rules that a family was ineligible for welfare if there was man living in the house?

    In the 1950s and early 1960s, welfare reform was limited to various states’ attempts to impose residency requirements on welfare applicants and remove illegitimate children from the welfare rolls. Many states also passed so-called “man in the house” rules, which cut off benefits when a man lived in the home. By the late 1960s, such laws had been struck down on the ground that the EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE of the FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT requires the government to treat all persons in similar situations equally.

    http://law.jrank.org/pages/112.....grams.html
    Talk about destroying the family, which I though conservatives were for.
    P.S. All 11 southern states passed this kind of laws about welfare.

  33. 40

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Blue John, we have something now called the internet. You can easily access African American violent crime statistics. They are not something you would like to see. You can see the violent crime statistics rocket upwards in lockstep with the welfare programs that destroyed African American families. Now, 70% of African American children are born to single mothers. How’s that for a success story? What chance do those kids have? All the government money and programs leftists throw at people cannot replace families. I liberals were truly compassionate they would understand this. But no. It’s all about leftist ideology.

    It’s a leftist myth that conservatives are racists, homophobes, sexists and “economic royalists”. I don’t know a single conservative that holds those beliefs. I know lots of liberals who are more than happy to promote those stereotypes. What liberals are unable to do is look with honesty at the failure of their programs and beliefs.

  34. 42

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    What states had those “man in the house” rules half a century ago? I’m sure they weren’t states that were run by Democrats.

    The facts are that Democrats came awfully late to the dance. They fought racial equality from before the Civil War until the 1960’s.

    They’ve managed to portray themselves as the saviors of the African American community. In reality their programs have turned inner city African American communities into lawless, uneducated war zones. Children are raised by single mothers, or grandparents. Most don’t know their own fathers. Liberals ignore their responsibility for what is a national tragedy. What do they do? Throw more money at public schools. That’s sure worked out well.

    If you don’t believe me Blue John, take a walk along 23rd and Union at midnight on a Friday night. What liberals have done to African Americans is nothing short of criminal. It’s all about securing a dependent voting bloc. What kind of sick people would do this?

  35. 43

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I do so enjoy civilized discourse with those leftists who portray themselves as being more sophisticated and learned than those of us who drive pickups, and own guns.

    The reasoned discourse commonly ends with something like the following: “Merry Fucking Christmas asshole”.

    All in the spirit of the season, I presume.

    I could get these responses from leftists every night. I’d rather not. I get leftists. They are wearily predictable. Conservatives have a much better sense of humor and they aren’t “offended” all the time the way leftists are. Toying with liberals a couple times a year is enough for me. They never change.

  36. 46

    Blue John spews:

    @42 The facts are that Democrats came awfully late to the dance. They fought racial equality from before the Civil War until the 1960’s.

    Yes. And then they changed and embraced liberal and progressive positions and the Republicans, the party of Lincoln, became the party of conservatives. Racist conservatives.

  37. 47

    Steve spews:

    “those of us who drive pickups, and own guns”

    Geez, just like my pickup and Detonics .451.

    “Conservatives have a much better sense of humor and they aren’t “offended” all the time the way leftists are.”

    Yeah, your comments are a fucking laugh riot.

    “It’s a leftist myth that conservatives are racists, homophobes, sexists and “economic royalists”. I don’t know a single conservative that holds those beliefs.”

    Eh, I suppose I should cut you some slack, wingnut racist homophobic white boy, seeing as how that one was actually funny.

  38. 48

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Since you probably don’t know any conservatives Blue John, you choose to stereotype them. Conservatives are the party of, in your own words, “Racist conservatives”. “Racist conservatives” is nothing more than an empty leftist talking point.

    Leftists know conservatives are not racists. That doesn’t stop them from playing the race card at any moment they find convenient.

    The real racists are leftists. They deliberately hammer the African American community with images of oppression. Their welfare policies collapsed the African American family structure. Don’t tell me you liberals are not responsible for over 70% of African American children being born out of wedlock. Don’t tell me your feel-good social policies haven’t been failures and are responsible for thousands of deaths.

    Liberals are always so angry about “social injustice” . It’s conservatives that ought to be angry about the hell misguided leftists have caused through their inability to understand the consequences of their policies.

    How many young African Americans die every week because they were not raised by a loving family?

    Again, 70% of African American children are born to a single mom. That was not the case 40 years ago. Nor was the African American violent crime rate what it is today.

    Nice work, liberals.

  39. 49

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    48. Bill Cruchon spews:

    Again, 70% of African American children are born to a single mom. That was not the case 40 years ago. Nor was the African American violent crime rate what it is today.

    Cites? Stats for 1970? Empirical eveidence?

    C’mon, mister big stuff…I haven’t got all day here….

  40. 50

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    Shorter “Bill Cruchon”-

    “God Damn It…I’m right because I BELIEVE what I think. Fuck you and your studues and statistics. I’m right because I BELIEVE what I think!!!! Now get off my fucking lawn…”

  41. 52

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    Garbage from a source no one but you deems credible. Nice try jackass…got ANYITHNG else?

  42. 53

    Steve spews:

    This guy Cruchon obviously isn’t right in the head. He tells us how conservatives aren’t racist – he never met one, and then he rages on and on about black women and black crime. That’s only black women and only black crime. The dude has some serious issues, denial being very close to the top of the list, just below racism.

  43. 54

    Zotz sez: The microchip in Klynical's ass was transmitting 6... 6... 6... spews:

    What Rujax! said.

    As for me: Merry Christmas*, asshole!

    BTW: Mistletoe makes a great salad.

    *[Merry Christmas: the new Fuck You!}

  44. 55

    Steve spews:

    The title of the dingbat’s link, “The Real Root Causes of Violent Crime: The Breakdown of Marriage, Family, and Community”

    My goodness, I see that red states have the highest divorce rates in the nation. What could that possibly mean?

    http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/n.....099-07.pdf

    Mark Sanford, Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, all paragon’s of virtue. Oh, look at what I found.

    http://www.republicanoffenders.com/Pedophiles.html

    I have an idea, Bill. How about you huddle with those freaks and see if you all can’t figure out what’s wrong with you fucking mind?

    You’ve got serious issues, Cruchon, get some help.

  45. 56

    Steve spews:

    Whatever you do to try to get your mind right, Cruchon, don’t take those meds that Puddy’s been taking. They clearly don’t work worth a shit.

  46. 57

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I’ve had my fun. You people will never change. You simply do not have the ability to critically examine your thinking. You are only 20% of the population, you know. Folks don’t like it when you pass regulations that forbid school bake sales, or prohibit using totally harmless electronic cigarettes in public. Americans don’t like control freaks, which is what liberals really are. Hippies used to talk about “freedom”. The grew up and became the very people that enjoy crushing freedom. The left has a website dedicated to shutting up opinions they don’t like. It’s called Media Matters and was founded by Hillary Clinton and George Soros. Nice, tolerant, open minded people. Makes your head hurt, doesn’t it?

    When one dares disagree you get the f-word. Over and over.

    That might play well in Seattle. Not so much in most of the country, which is sick and tired of liberals.

    Merry Christmas!

  47. 58

    Steve spews:

    “I’ve had my fun.”

    Geez, I’m so sad. I was just getting started with you. Well, be sure to come back next year, Bill, and share some more of teh stupid with us.

  48. 59

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 48

    Don’t tell me you liberals are not responsible for over 70% of African American children being born out of wedlock. Don’t tell me your feel-good social policies haven’t been failures and are responsible for thousands of deaths.

    Hold that thought.

    @57

    You simply do not have the ability to critically examine your thinking.

    Gosh, Bill, you’ve done nothing but toss out liberal stereotypes all the while complaining about conservative stereotypes. Looks a little empty–particularly when one looks at the actual data.

    You’ve cited one policy paper by the Cato institute, but both you and that policy paper have rather conveniently ignored other data. For example, a variety of studies have shown a negative correlation between welfare payments an incidents of violent crime. You can find a good summary of the literature here (PDF).

    Of course, since you clearly don’t want to be told that we liberals are not responsible for increases in violent crime, I can only conclude that your mind is completely closed on this matter.

    And I’ve only begun to scratch the surface of the data that your Cato link fails to take into account. I won’t bother, because you, clearly, don’t want to be told the truth. You’d rather believe stuff like this:

    The left has a website dedicated to shutting up opinions they don’t like. It’s called Media Matters and was founded by Hillary Clinton and George Soros.

    According to Wikipedia, Media Matters “uses a variety of techniques, including content analysis, fact checking, monitoring, and comparison of quotes.” In most circles, that would be known as “engaging the debate.” To you, however, this activity constitutes “shutting up opinions they don’t like.”

    If you point out a fact that some conservative got wrong, then, according to Mr. Cruchon, you’re “shutting up opinions [you] don’t like.”

    When one dares disagree you get the f-word.

    When you show up with a closed mind and complain about our supposedly closed minds, the only appropriate response is, fuck you. Why would you expect us to treat your hypocrisy with any kind of respect whatsoever?

  49. 60

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Merry Christmas Bill.
    Many of these lost souls at HorsesAss.org have allowed self-pride to get in the way of the free gift of Salvation. Too Bad.
    They also close their eyes to the facts of the undesirable consequences of a growing welfare/entitlement state. It’s too painful to admit the Progressive agenda is highly flawed and filled with undesirable consequences.

    Like many intelligent, educated people these days..they are unable to forsee predictable consequences. Sadly, they must actually experience them…when it’s too late.
    Just like what is happening the the US Currency. They don’t want to see the catastrophic future consequences because they have never experienced such a horrific thing. They are victims of the narrow-minded Normalcy Bias..they cannot fathom something they have never experienced before…despite clear history of England losing control of it’s currency. What happened in Yugoslavia. And what has happened in Greece & Iceland. The deck of cards is about to collapse..yet they desperately hand on to Obama as the messiah of Hope & Change.
    Rural living is great.
    Good luck to you Denialists.

  50. 61

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Oh, btw Steve. Been married 32 years. Funny how you don’t bring up Bill Clinton, or John Edwards. And why did Tipper divorce Al Gore?

    You certainly know that the reason red states have a higher divorce rate is that they have a higher population of people that have actually married. Pretty hard to statistically track blue states, where liberals conveniently have “partners” and do not marry. Real hard to figure that one out.

    Leftists always play the “well, what about” game. Muslim terrorists kill 3,000 innocent citizens, and the left says “well, what about Oklahoma City, or Columbine?” .

    If that doesn’t work out there’s always the ad-hominem personal attack:

    “You’ve got serious issues, Cruchon, get some help.”

    I think folks who call someone who disagrees with them a “prick” perhaps need a bit of help. Or maybe those folks need to get out more. Calling someone a “prick” in public might have consequences.

    Leftists reserve that mythical peace and love for those who agree with their politics. For those of us who raise issues that make them uncomfortable? The peace, love, and tolerance melts away, and we see what you really are. Who would have ever thought that the Woodstock generation would grow up to be political correctness bullies? I find it fascinating.

    The answer of course is that 1960’s hippies really weren’t very nice people at all. I know. I was there. They were essentially angry people who embraced communism. To this day leftists sport Che Guevara t- shirts. Never mind that Che was a mass murderer who loved automatic weapons.

  51. 62

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    It just galls these stupid trollfucks and drives them fucking crazy that none of us here take any one of them or their dumbass spew seriously.

    Not only do we think they’re idioits but we PROVE IT…why and how they are idiots every day of the week…even Christmas Eve.

    Enough of that!

    So I’ve got my apple pie in the oven…getting some presents wrapped and heading for Christmas with my kids and my beautiful girl.

    Best of all today to all of you!!!

  52. 63

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    @ #60 – I agree. I don’t understand that whole self-pride thing that leftists embrace. I think it really points to the fact that leftists have closed minds. They cling to their beliefs despite contrary evidence. The quickest way to enflame a leftist is to ask them a direct question. They squirm, try to change the subject, and eventually resort to name calling. You can play this game with any leftist. The response is the same. Kind of creepy, really.

  53. 64

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    “It just galls these stupid trollfucks and drives them fucking crazy that none of us here take any one of them or their dumbass spew seriously.”

    Not exactly. It’s exactly the response we expect from liberals. It’s entirely predictable. Push a liberal’s button and you can rely on the kind of response seen above.

    Can you get through to a liberal with facts and logic? No. Their minds are closed. They live in liberal bubbles and only associate with other liberals. The think they are smarter than anyone else. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

  54. 65

    Steve spews:

    “the reason red states have a higher divorce rate is that they have a higher population of people that have actually married”

    You’re not very good with statistics, are you?

    “Real hard to figure that one out.”

    For you? Apparently so.

    “Been married 32 years”

    Oh, well that changes everything.

    “you don’t bring up Bill Clinton, or John Edwards”

    Dude, you started it. Shouldn’t you have been the one to bring up Gingrich, Livingston, Sanborn and a zillion wingnut pedos? But no, you couldn’t even acknowledge the moral shortcomings on your side of the fence. What’s up with that, if not denial?

    “I think folks who call someone who disagrees with them a “prick” perhaps need a bit of help.”

    When I encounter somebody who needs some meds, I see no harm in pointing it out to them.

    “Leftists always play the “well, what about” game.”

    And what game are you playing when you write something like, “Don’t tell me you liberals are not responsible for over 70% of African American children being born out of wedlock”?

    Women have been aborting for countless millenia. I suspect somehow that this predates liberalism. You keep pulling shit like that from your ass and you wonder why you get a very respectful reply? I know! Pull out the hippie card!

    “The answer of course is that 1960’s hippies really weren’t very nice people at all. I know. I was there.”

    I was there too and I hate to tell you this, but you’re completely full of shit. When you have to depend upon false stereotypes to make your point, you’re only showing us that you have no point to make.

    “peace and love”

    I like how you’re shitting all over this thread on Christmas eve. Peace and love? You dirty fucking hippie.

  55. 67

    Steve spews:

    Dumbfuck KLOWN sez, “Many of these lost souls at HorsesAss.org have allowed self-pride to get in the way of the free gift of Salvation. Too Bad.”

    Good grief. The pious goatfucker is gonna deliver another sermon. I have an idea. Bill says he’s never met a wingnut racist. How about you telling him some of your black jokes so he can get a fucking clue?

    @63, 64 You’ve got some fucking problems, Bill. Takes some meds, do some isometrics, whatever it takes for you to chill out.

  56. 69

    Steve spews:

    “Can you get through to a liberal with facts and logic?”

    I could beat your head to a pulp with “facts and logic” and you still wouldn’t have a clue. You’re starting to bore me, Bill. I’ll have to go back and talk with the medless Puddy. He’s a load of fun when he’s like that. You? Not so much.

  57. 72

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 61

    Leftists always play the “well, what about” game.

    Yup. As a rhetorical technique, that’s generally known as pointing out facts that your conclusions ignore. Apparently in your social circles this is not regarded as a legitimate form of rebuttal. What a shame.

  58. 73

    Steve spews:

    “Bill has more projection than an IMAX theater.”

    I read somewhere that it’s a Psych 101 thing.

  59. 74

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    How often on a conservative blog do you see someone referred to as a “goatfucker”.

    I love you guys!

  60. 75

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 74

    How often on a conservative blog do you see someone referred to as a “goatfucker”.

    How often do liberals show up at a conservative blog demanding a level of respect that they clearly aren’t willing to give?

    Your arguments have been rebutted in this thread. Spend more time addressing those rebuttals and less time complaining about being called a goatfucker, and the odds are you’ll not be called a goatfucker quite so often.

  61. 77

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Actually, it wasn’t me that was called a “goatfucker” . Just thought I’d set the record straight.

  62. 78

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 76

    How so? Please, be specific.

    Please read comments 59 and 65; at least read them more carefully than you did the first time around.

    Also, learn the difference between an ad-hominem argument and an observation. If I say that you’re stupid because your argument sucks, that’s an observation. If I say that your argument sucks because you’re stupid, that’s an ad-hominem argument.

  63. 79

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    This is such classic liberal hogwash. The “study” cited at #59 concludes thusly:

    CONCLUSION
    Researchers have found a consistent decline in serious crime since the mid-1990s (Chaiken, 2000; Ringel, 1996). This time period was also when welfare reform legislation was passed and implemented nationwide with welfare rolls and spending being cut. Studies examining the relationship between welfare and crime during the latter half of the 1990s, when crime was decreasing, have been scant, even in the current examination. Given the results of this study, considering welfare as a structural covariate that could influence crime, particularly part two property crimes, in unwanted direc- tions, several suggestions for future research are offered.
    Future research that concerns itself with examining the welfare-crime relationship across different macrosocial units within the United States could be beneficial considering the major reforms to the AFDC program under the new welfare-to-work TANF policy. Even though AFDC and TANF programs are distinct in their forms of entitlement and welfare to work, respectively, they are similar in that they both provide cash assistance to recipients in times of need regardless of the duration of that need. Because the present study only examined counties within one state from 1980 to 1990, and because the bulk of the past research in this area is studied cross-sectionally, subsequent research should consider longitudinal designs to disentangle the effects of the terminated AFDC program and of
    Downloaded from http://cjp.sagepub.com at SAGE Publications on February 10, 2009
    Burek / WELFARE SPENDING AND PROPERTY CRIMES 381
    TANF on crime since the mid-1990s. A greater focus on part two crimes may also be advised considering the prevalence of these offenses.

    If you can get through the snooty academic language it’s obvious that the study was referring to the possible results of welfare reform, which was forced upon President Clinton by the 1994 Republican Congress. Doesn’t exactly rebut my argument, does it?

  64. 80

    Steve spews:

    “How so? Please, be specific.”

    I doubt if anybody will bother repeating themselves. Just read the comments in response to yours and respond to the rebuttals that were presented to you. Until then, the assumption will likely be that you simply can’t. You might start with explaining how populations of states has any bearing on the percentage rate of divorces. You accused us of racism with no supporting evidence. Offer an explanation of how your focusing soley on rising black abortion and crime rates doesn’t reek of racism. Do the legwork, Bill. If you were wrong, admit you were wrong. Maybe you’ll earn some respect instead of scorn.

  65. 81

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 79

    This is such classic liberal hogwash.

    Really? Let’s see. @ 40, you said:

    You can easily access African American violent crime statistics.

    I produce a study that cites a variety of other studies that show an inverse correlation between AFDC payments and violent crime. Apparently, that’s “liberal hogwash” and not a direct rebuttal.

    You cite:

    Given the results of this study, considering welfare as a structural covariate that could influence crime, particularly part two property crimes [emphasis added]

    Your original point was about violent crime. The study I cited shows a possible (the language is clear that the results are inconclusive) correlation between welfare payments and property crime, but that blows your causal mechanism completely out of the water.

    Not surprisingly, property crimes tend to correlate with poverty, which also correlates with welfare payments. That would strongly suggest that there is some other causal factor that’s responsible for both outcomes.

    You, however, are too intent on blaming liberal welfare policies for all of these issues, so such facts must be dismissed as “classic liberal hogwash.”

  66. 82

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    “Also, learn the difference between an ad-hominem argument and an observation. If I say that you’re stupid because your argument sucks, that’s an observation. If I say that your argument sucks because you’re stupid, that’s an ad-hominem argument.”

    If I say you are a snooty liberal for posting something like the above is it an ad-hominem attack? Just kidding. I love the way liberals say things like “learn the difference” or “you are misinformed” or you “need” to have public transit, etc. You have no idea how snooty you sound to the “great unwashed”. You know, those people that come out and jump start your car for you because you don’t know how.

  67. 83

    Steve spews:

    “Researchers have found a consistent decline in serious crime since the mid-1990s (Chaiken, 2000; Ringel, 1996). This time period was also when welfare reform legislation was passed and implemented nationwide with welfare rolls and spending being cut.”

    The mid 1990’s also saw the beginning of one of the most robust economies in recent history. Doesn’t it seem a little biased to you that this study failed to examine the effects that 22,000,000 new jobs in a few short years had on lowered crime rates? Doesn’t this so-called study strike you as being somewhat agenda-driven to have utterly failed to take this into account?

  68. 84

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Bill-
    When you share facts and studies…you get more irrelevant vitrol. It’s from Saul Alinsky’s playbook!
    You are a good man Bill.
    God Bless you and Merry Christmas.
    Steve was born a poor black child and had a tough go of it living on the streets. he made something of himself but apparently thinks others are too lazy & stupid to do the same. he feels good handing out other people’s money to the poor and downtrodden. It’s a cheap political high. If Steve really cared, he’d be out sharing more of his wealth rather than paying Yacht Klub and Kountry Klub dues.

    The easiest thing to do is give away other people’s money!
    Didn’t PJ O’Rourke say that?

  69. 86

    Steve spews:

    “You know, those people that come out and jump start your car for you because you don’t know how.”

    Jump start a car? Good grief, Bill, I was restoring cars when I was a teenager. The first was a Jaguar XK-120 roadster. I can balance SU’s blindfolded. This weekend I’ll be replacing the alternator in my pickup truck. Enough of the stereotypes.

  70. 87

    Blue John spews:

    Bill, there in point in responding to you. You have your point of view and nothing we say will change your mind. No logic, no facts, not examples, you don’t want to hear it. You are just as close minded as you accuse us of being.

  71. 88

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    @#81. What you’ve missed John is the point I made at #40. That point is that AFDC payments encouraged women to have children out of wedlock. Look what happened. Over 70% of African American children grow up without a father. 70% and you leftists just shrug your shoulders as if that statistic is meaningless. Listen to conservative African Americans such as Shelby Steele, and Bill Cosby, if you don’t believe a white guy who has seen it first hand.

  72. 91

    Steve spews:

    @90 I didn’t know that Christ was into restoring old Jags or swapping alternators.

    Is that all you’ve got?

  73. 92

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I’m not trying to be sarcastic. Years ago one of my school friends had a younger brother named Steve who tinkered with Jaguars. His name was Steve Christ. Coincidence? Probably.

  74. 93

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 88

    What you’ve missed John is the point I made at #40.

    Except that the “point” you made at 40 has been directly rebutted.

    You’re claiming that AFDC has lead to an increase in the incidents of unwed mothers. No study has shown any direct correlation between these two, which is why the Cato piece that you cited draws upon the correlation between broken families and incidents of violent crime–a correlation which, I believe, everyone here acknowledges.

    But, studies have shown an inverse correlation between AFDC and incidents of violent crime. In other words, it’s entirely possible that AFDC actually reduced the incidents of unwed mothers and that your proposed causal link is nothing more than a superficial conclusion based on an incomplete analysis of all of the data we have available.

  75. 94

    Blue John spews:

    I remember the Bill Cosby speeches. I thought he made very good points. My partner who is black, also though he made good points.
    However, I don’t remember
    Cosby advocating the dismantling of the liberal safety net to have personal responsibility.

  76. 95

    Steve spews:

    I ask if that’s all you’ve got because you’re simply not bringing anything. I can respect a troll who brings it. Try showing me why I should respect you. As for insults, in that arena you’re competing with Puddy for my attention. So if that’s all you want to do here, you’re really gonna have to try an awful lot harder.

  77. 96

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Ok, show me a study that indicates that the rate of unwed mothers decreased with the increase in welfare, (AFDC), payments.

    Before you go further. Do you not think it is possible that government bureaucrats would commission studies that are skewed in their favor? Nah, they’d never do that. Neither would universities that are run by liberals. Unthinkable!

    “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.” – Mark Twain, and others.

  78. 97

    Steve spews:

    @93 heh- Yeah, what he said.

    @94 I also find that I have a lot of agreement with Cosby. That’s one reason why, when Puddy asks, what are Democrats going to do for blacks, I always respond, WTF do you expect Democrats to do for blacks? He shuts up every time.

  79. 98

    Don Joe spews:

    @96

    Ok, show me a study that indicates that the rate of unwed mothers decreased with the increase in welfare, (AFDC), payments.

    Typical conservative hogwash. Produce facts that call their conclusions into question, and then they demand a direct study that proves their conclusion false. Oh, and, even then, they hedge their bets with stuff like:

    Before you go further. Do you not think it is possible that government bureaucrats would commission studies that are skewed in their favor?

    As if the Cato Institute doesn’t do exactly that.

  80. 99

    Steve spews:

    @92 No, my last name is not Christ. I’m approximately your age. Back in our school days, when others were into VW vans and Beetles, my friends and I were into buying old Jags for less than half the price of a bug and restoring them. If you ever saw a caravan of old XK’s on the lakeshore drive back then, that was probably us.

  81. 100

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I think the question ought to be what are Democrats going to do to blacks? Given the Democrats long history of promoting slavery, promoting Jim Crow laws, promoting segregation and fighting the abolition of segregation into the 1960’s. Further given that Democrats have a stake in keeping African Americans poor and angry just to get their votes. Conservative, successful African Americans understand the games Democrats play. That’s why they are shouted down, and called names. Once African Americans figure out how the Democrats have played them, that voting bloc is going to vanish. The time isn’t far off.

  82. 101

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Steve, I remember Steve Christ restoring a 12-cylinder XKE when he was in high school. That was probably around 1970. As for me, I had a straight-eight Pontiac, and it was old then.

  83. 102

    Steve spews:

    I should have wrote “many others” @99. After all, not everybody was into VW’s. It just seemed like it at the time. We were like, why drive a VW when you can drive a Jag? I bought my XK-120 for $300. I bought a ’63 XKE with a spare engine and tranny, a car that needed very little work, for a grand.

  84. 103

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 100

    I think the question ought to be what are Democrats going to do to blacks?

    I see. When you’ve lost the first round of debate, change the subject. Got it,

    Given the Democrats long history of promoting slavery, promoting Jim Crow laws, promoting segregation and fighting the abolition of segregation into the 1960’s.

    Wow. Are we going to completely ignore the shift in politics that occurred after the passage of civil rights legislation in the 60’s? Did the folks in the Bible Belt suddenly become enlightened about race and become Republicans following their defeat in the 60’s, or did the Republican Party, itself, shift?

    Further given that Democrats have a stake in keeping African Americans poor and angry just to get their votes.

    Fascinating. So, the way to hold someone’s vote is to keep promising something while not ever actually delivering on the promise? On what planet does this work?

  85. 104

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    “Fascinating. So, the way to hold someone’s vote is to keep promising something while not ever actually delivering on the promise? On what planet does this work?”

    Not so much what planet. It works when the media, and the schools brainwash generations of young people.

  86. 105

    Steve spews:

    @101 I believed the earlier XKE’s were the best. Up to the early ’66 model. Late in ’66 they came out with the open headlights and other body changes that were unappealing and altered the character of the car. Jaguar began losing their way after that. The 240Z sort of took their slot in the early 70’s, for awhile anyway – producing a lot of sports car for the money. They later became more bloated and pricy too.

  87. 106

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 104

    It works when the media, and the schools brainwash generations of young people.

    And the evidence that they’re actually being brainwashed is…what? Why do I get the sense that we’re about to take a ride on conservatively-driven rhetorical merry-go-round?

    I’ll also note that you’ve not addressed the entire shift in politics that took place after the passage of the civil rights legislation in the 60’s. Is this another case where you’ve admitted defeat by changing the subject?

    You’ve started out in this thread by complaining that liberals are, somehow, immune to actual facts and reason. Yet, over the last few posts, your own comments have taken a decided turn away from established fact and into an ethereal realm of personal fantasy.

  88. 107

    Steve spews:

    Speaking of straight-eights, I had a chance at an old LaSalle with a straight-eight around 1970. Pop-up signal lights. Cool car. And in beautiful condition. The guy only wanted $600. I passed. Sigh! I sure do have my regrets when it comes to cars I didn’t buy.

  89. 108

    Steve spews:

    @106 You’re doing so well here, Don Joe, that I feel I can let go and reminisce about old cars. Enough of that, though.

  90. 109

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    What I originally said in response to the original topic was this:
    “Essentially, liberals have destroyed the family structure. Particularly in African American communities such as Oakland. What is the result? Duh! Kids grow up in poverty. They drop out of high school at enormous rates. They murder each other. Democrat welfare programs created this nightmare, whether intentionally, or not. Anyone can look at the historic crime rate statistics in African American communities. The carnage after the disintegration of traditional families is glaring. If leftists were honest with themselves they would admit that their programs have been a tragic failure. The awful truth is leftists really don’t care how many young African Americans die every weekend in Americas’ inner cities. Not as long as African Americans can be relied upon to vote for Democrats.”

    Seems to me I haven’t strayed a whole lot from my original argument.

    Not sure what that “entire shift in politics” after the passage of the civil rights legislation was. But let me guess. You believe that the Republican “southern strategy” exploited race in order to build the majorities that re-elected Nixon, and later elected Reagan and both Bush I and II. Or am I missing something?

  91. 111

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    You leftists are so sophisticated. You sure love to play tough guys from behind the safety of the internet, don’t you.

    Just a hint for you fine folks. Don’t say anything on the net that you wouldn’t say across a dining room table, or to someone on the next bar stool. The kinds of vulgar personal insults I see hurled here and on leftist websites everywhere would likely get most of you a quick visit to the emergency room in a lot of places. I’d just walk away. I’m a peaceful guy. But trust me, the kind of insults I see here could get a guy’s head kicked in if he isn’t careful. It’s easy to say “shut the f— up” on the internet. Try saying that to a 220 pound biker sometime. Just a word from someone who knows how to swear when he needs to.

  92. 112

    Don Joe spews:

    @109

    Seems to me I haven’t strayed a whole lot from my original argument.

    You’re kidding, right? Your claim of a causal link between liberal policies and the disintegration of Afrcan American families was rather thoroughly debunked, at which point you suggested that we should be asking what Democrats are going to do to Blacks. Are you saying that your switch from past tense to future tense is not a significant change in subject?

    Not sure what that “entire shift in politics” after the passage of the civil rights legislation was. But let me guess.

    It seems to me that the facts are rather obvious. Prior to the passage of civil rights legislation, the southern states were very blue. They’re now extremely red. Is this not a massive shift in politics?

    By the way, given your rather abysmal track record for understanding the liberal point of view, I’d strongly suggest you refrain from any further guessing.

  93. 113

    Don Joe spews:

    @111

    Just a hint for you fine folks. Don’t say anything on the net that you wouldn’t say across a dining room table, or to someone on the next bar stool.

    I have no qualms about saying, “Fuck you” to your face. If you don’t believe me, you’re welcome to stop by.

    The kinds of vulgar personal insults I see hurled here

    Oh, cry me a fucking river. You’ve spent this entire thread telling us what liberals supposedly believe and are trying to do to African Americans, and have done so without a shred of substantive evidence to back your claims up (I’m still waiting for you to come up with anything about “brain washing”). Moreover, in the comment threads here, the vulgar personal insult isn’t limited to participants whose views come from the left.

    In other words, quit your belly aching. Get back to the argument, if you think you can actually repair the damage that’s been done.

    Of course, if you can’t repair the damage that’s been done, then what better way to obfuscate that fact than to complain vociferously about the way you’ve been treated?

  94. 114

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Hey Don Joe, I post here under my own name, as I have for years in the paper, and on various blogs. Where I live is no secret. I don’t hide behind some anonymous name. Come say “F—you” to my face, anytime. How childish.

    What I’ve done on this thread is make you very angry. I am stating my opinion. I’ve seen the destruction of the African American family first hand and the tragic results. How old are you, Don Joe?

  95. 115

    spews:

    Well done Don Joe as always.

    I quite enjoy it when Cruchon deigns to haunt our comment threads.

    His elaborate right wing delusional system is rich in laugh material.

  96. 116

    Don Joe spews:

    @114

    Come say “F—you” to my face, anytime.

    I’m supposed to show up on your doorstep and say, “Fuck you,” just to prove that I have no qualms about saying, “Fuck you” to your face?

    How childish.

    Indeed. Meanwhile, there is an argument on the table. You could be addressing the points that have been raised. Instead you choose to discuss vulgarities.

    What I’ve done on this thread is make you very angry.

    No. You’ve made me laugh. You’ve gotten me to shake my head in wonder at the level of stupidity you can exhibit while remaining completely ignorant of how stupid you really are. But the one thing you’ve not done is made me angry.

    I’ve seen the destruction of the African American family first hand and the tragic results.

    So, now you’re claiming authority on the subject? And your credentials are?

    How old are you, Don Joe?

    I have to admit, you do make me laugh. After complaining about ad-hominem arguments, you ask a question the only purpose of which is to launch and ad-hominem argument.

    My age is irrelevant, but, in case you’re wondering, I’ve begun the second half century of my life.

  97. 117

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I just love liberals. They always believe that if we just tax the heck out of the people that take risks, work hard, and make the world a better place we will achieve nirvana. Where’s that ever happened? We spend more per student than any nation in the world except Luxembourg. Yet liberals constantly whine that schools are crumbling and they need more tax money. Why do parents still have to buy their kids school supplies? Why is there an astronomical high school drop out rate? Where does all that money go? It doesn’t go towards education. It goes to 100,000 dollar a year school psychologists, (we didn’t have them in my day). It goes to layer upon layer of bureaucracy. It goes to “blue ribbon panels” that eventually reach conclustions that people with common sense already know. Please. The left isn’t concerned about children, (other than filling their heads with leftist propaganda). They are concerned with feathering their nests.

  98. 118

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    I’ve seen the destruction of the African American family first hand and the tragic results.

    Don Joe responds,

    “So, now you’re claiming authority on the subject? And your credentials are?”

    This is where I am tempted to say f—you. I worked in the nastiest part of the inner city. I mentored young promising African Americans. One of them was brutally murdered walking home. Yeah buddy, I have credentials. What have you got?

  99. 119

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    @117…

    What a motherfucking idiot.

    School Psychologists??? THAT’S IT??? REALLY?

    Boy howdy…I hope people you know don’t read this blog…or maybe they already know what kind of asswipe you are.

  100. 120

    Don Joe spews:

    @117

    I’ve never met a liberal who wants to tax the hell out of everyone and everything, or who simply wants to “throw money”at every problem. I’ve met a lot of liberals who think we should collectively pay for the things we’ve collectively decided to do.

    When I say, “fuck you,” it’s because you have a remarkable tendency to begin every policy debate by attributing to me a policy position I’ve never advocated. That tells me that you aren’t interested in having a real policy debate. Straw men are easy to slay.

    Now, I’d be more than happy to discuss the problems with our system of education, but it would be good for that discussion to be grounded in actual facts, among which is the fact that my son’s high school does not have a psychologist who makes $100K a year.

    @118

    I note that you are tempted to say, “fuck you,” when I have the temerity to ask you what your credentials are at a point where you are claiming expertise.

    Note the difference. Asking for someone’s credentials is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical technique. Constructing straw men is not.

    Oh, and your appeal to my emotions is also not recognized as a legitimate statement of credentials under any recognized rules of rhetoric.

  101. 121

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    And though you asked for my “credentials” and I responded specifically, you curiously ignore them. I asked you for your credentials. Come on, Don Joe, what have you got?

    I just love liberals. They are so adult. I just got called a “asswipe”. Is it confirming?

    What I observe is that you folks that hurl insults and obscenities hide in anonymity. When I was growing up that was called cowardice. You clearly cannot have a civil discussion. Instead you hurl profane insults that would get your asses kicked if you had the courage to say the same things face to face. I may say things you folks find unpleasant, and I may be wrong, but I do not call names and shout profanities. It says volumes about the left that profanity and insults show up in nearly every political discussion. You all know who I am, and where I live. I don’t hide like some coward. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves. Grow up.

  102. 122

    Zotz sez: The microchip in Klynical's ass was transmitting 6... 6... 6... spews:

    @121: I knew you couldn’t stay away, losty!

  103. 124

    Don Joe spews:

    @121

    And though you asked for my “credentials” and I responded specifically, you curiously ignore them.

    Um, I didn’t ignore your “credentials,” such as they are. I pointed out that your appeal to emotion doesn’t constitute a legitimate set of credentials.

    I asked you for your credentials. Come on, Don Joe, what have you got?

    I don’t claim any expertise or authority, nor have I made any argument that would rely on such a claim.

    Why do you insist on asking me for information that’s irrelevant to the arguments?

    What I observe is that you folks that hurl insults and obscenities hide in anonymity. When I was growing up that was called cowardice.

    So, your last rhetorical gasp, having failed to produce a single cogent argument in this entire thread, is to call me coward.

    It would also seem that we should be particularly impressed by the rather clear implication that saying, “fuck you” to your face would result in some sort of physically violent reprisal.

    What a big man you are, Mr. Bill Cruchon. You have us all cowering in such fear.

    Adolescent, indeed.

  104. 125

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Don Joe, Where do I begin? Obviously you have no standing in discussion the central premise of this thread. I do, and I have identified my credentials. You asked for them, and I provided them. You have provided no such credentials, because evidently you have none. Isn’t that the truth Don Joe? Have you got the courage to post under your real name? Nah!

  105. 127

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 125

    Don Joe, Where do I begin?

    How about beginning with a cogent argument, for a change? Just a suggestion. Feel free to ignore that suggestion as you have since you chose to post here.

    Obviously you have no standing in discussion the central premise of this thread.

    As a citizen of the State of Washington, I have standing in any thread having to do with the policies of the government of the State of Washington. This is, after all, a Democracy.

    I have identified my credentials.

    For the third time, I will point out that you’ve done no such thing. You’ve made a vague claim about having worked in the inner city, and included an emotional appeal about having seen one of your charges being murdered while walking home. Well, la-di-da!

    You’ve made no claims about having any particular expertise in any related sociological fields. You’ve provided no information about your educational background.

    In short, your claim of expertise is as vapid as just about everything else you’ve said in this thread.

    Isn’t that the truth Don Joe?

    The truth is, I’ve made no claim that would require any form of expertise. Why do you keep demanding that I provide “credentials” that are not germane to any argument I’ve made in this thread?

    Have you got the courage to post under your real name?

    I choose to post anonymously for one simple reason: I prefer to focus on the issues and not who I am. To focus on who I am is, well, an ad-hominem argument.

    By the way, thank you for proving yourself to be an enormous hypocrite–you, who made such a stink about ad-hominem arguments, have now stooped to engaging in same.

  106. 128

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    One has to have “particular expertise in any related sociological fields” in order to to observe first hand the tragedy of the African American community?

    You show me you phony “Don Joe” where have ever worked in the inner city. You never have. I can tell by the childish posts. You ain’t got nothin’

  107. 130

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    What’s your experience “Don Joe”? I can document mine. Bet you can’t.

    The long answer? Don Joe has no idea what he is talking about.

  108. 131

    Don Joe spews:

    @128

    One has to have “particular expertise in any related sociological fields” in order to to observe first hand the tragedy of the African American community?

    No. One, does, however have to have received sufficient training in order to make authoritative claims about the causes of those tragedies.

    You show me you phony

    First, you’ve now stooped to name calling. How grown up of you.

    Second, apparently I’m a “phony,” because I refuse to claim any particular expertise. I guess “up” has now become “down” as well.

    Third, I have, several times now, asked you to cite a single claim I’ve made that would require any expertise. Yet, you refuse to provide any such citation. Why?

  109. 132

    Don Joe spews:

    @130

    Don Joe has no idea what he is talking about.

    That would be the reason I went and looked for the works of experts in the field, as I did in my comment @59, rather than advance any specious claims to having any expertise myself.

  110. 133

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Don Joe says, ” You’ve made a vague claim about having worked in the inner city, and included an emotional appeal about having seen one of your charges being murdered while walking home. Well, la-di-da!”

    Well, chew on this Don Joe, I hired Tyrone and I wouldn’t let him walk home alone at night. He was good guy, not a gang banger. He could have been anything he wanted to be. I told him that over and over. He liked promoting rap music events. He must have made some enemies. They killed him in cold blood on Cherry Street. I’ll never get over it.

  111. 135

    Don Joe spews:

    @133 & 134

    You know, I’m beginning to wonder if you have a problem with reading comprehension. I’ve pointed out that this is an emotional appeal. Your response has been, to turn up the volume of the emotion.

    Increasing the volume of the emotion does not give you expertise in the cause-and-effect relationships involved in these tragedies any more than my witnessing the death of a very good friend due to a lack of health insurance coverage would give me any expertise in health-care policies.

    Now, can we please return to the issues?

  112. 136

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    So what specifically have you done, “Don Joe”? You asked me for “credentials”. Seems as though I have plenty of them.

    It’s time to talk about you. Isn’t it? Like maybe what’s your real name. And what is your address. And what is it that you do for a living. I’m not afraid to share that information. Why are you?

  113. 138

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    You are in waaay over your head on this Christmas Eve, Don Joe.

    However, I wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas!

  114. 139

    Michael spews:

    @Bill C.

    I just love liberals. They are so adult. I just got called a “asswipe”. Is it confirming?

    A helpful hint, if I may. Look just to the right of peoples names. We don’t say things here we “spew them.” The comment threads are referred to as “The Cesspool” for a reason. This has nothing to do with being left or right, some of the Righties that hang out here can swear almost as well as us lefties. It’s about having a place were the normal decorum can be set aside for a bit and you can call a sperm burping fuck-wad a sperm burping fuck-wad.

    There are many places on the web where you can flout your credentials and have in-depth discussions. There’s only one HA.

  115. 140

    Michael spews:

    And Bill,

    Like maybe what’s your real name. And what is your address. And what is it that you do for a living. I’m not afraid to share that information. Why are you?

    We don’t diss on people for using aliases here. There are very good reasons FOR using them on HA.

  116. 141

    Michael spews:

    You clearly cannot have a civil discussion.

    We have them all the time, Bill. Sometimes we even have them on here. But, sometimes you need a little escape from all that.

  117. 142

    Don Joe spews:

    @136

    Seems as though I have plenty of them.

    That would depend entirely on the nature of the claims one makes. You’ve claimed that these tragedies are caused by liberal policies. That level of claim requires more than first-hand experience with the tragedies involved.

    It’s time to talk about you

    Why? Because you like being such a braggart, you think I should become one too?

    By the way, anyone who regularly reads the comment threads here knows where I work and what I do.

    Now, can we please get back to the issues?

  118. 143

    Don Joe spews:

    @138

    However, I wish you and yours a very Merry Christmas!

    Not my holy day, but I appreciate the sentiment. May the happiness in you life be ever increasing.

  119. 144

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Really? We weren’t allowed to be so conveniently anonymous when we wrote letters to the P-I, or the Times.

    Perhaps it is out of fashion to stand up for what you believe in. I see no reason for anonymity.

  120. 145

    Don Joe spews:

    @144

    Welcome to the digital age. Give away too much personal information, and you can find yourself in a variety of sticky wickets that really have nothing to do with standing up for one’s views. Identity theft is a real problem.

    Besides, I could just as easily concoct an identity that isn’t obviously anonymous, and you’d have no way of knowing. Now that would be a cowardly thing to do.

  121. 146

    Don Joe spews:

    I should probably add that I’ve been posting anonymously in a variety of online fora since college and the days of Usenet over twenty years ago. In some ways, it’s part of the digital culture.

    Who I am and what I do isn’t important, and posting anonymously is a way of focusing on the issues rather than personal status. The reputation that “Don Joe” has depends entirely on my ability to put together a cogent argument and nothing else. Some people find value in that.

  122. 148

    spews:

    Is Cruchon saying that liberal policies killed his friend Tyrone??? How about a gunman?

    Wow Cruchon I bet you had a real problem with the judge who sentenced that gunman. It must have been a real treat when you told the court, Tyrone’s family and anyone else in the courtroom that day that liberal policies killed Tyrone and you’re going to fight those murdering liberals in the comment threads of Soundpolitics.com and HA.org.

  123. 150

    Michael spews:

    @148

    Guns don’t kill people do, liberal social and economic policies do!

    Man, they must be killing minorities right and left over in liburl europe!

  124. 151

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Hey YLB, the person that killed Tyrone has not been caught. What’s up with that made up garbage you posted? Explain now with some honesty. Right now! You creep.

  125. 152

    Don Joe spews:

    @149

    Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, and if believing that I’m a coward is sufficient salve to cover up the fact that I’ve just kicked your rhetorical ass to smithereens, then, by all means, be my guest.

  126. 154

    Michael spews:

    @151

    Hey YLB, the person that killed Tyrone has not been caught.

    So for all you know, he could have been killed by a member of the far right, skinheads and such. Or maybe someone was just being dumb with a gun and firing wildly.

    Tyrone does sound like he was a great guy and was trying to do good things in his community. It’s a shame we’re losing so many kids. I agree with you on that one.

  127. 155

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Here’s the real deal about Tyrone. His murderers have never been caught. He was gunned down in cold blood while he was walking home. When we worked together I would not let him walk home alone. I drove him home every night. Tyrone had everything going for him. It’s hard for me write this.

  128. 157

    spews:

    What’s up Cruchon is that what I said made about as much sense as anything you’ve said in this thread.

    You always come in here with a big chip on your shoulder and wave the broad brush.

    You’re a detestable buffoon. Everything is knee-jerk with you – liberals this, leftists that, Seattle this, socialists that. Knee-jerk right winger. I mean the way you behave is straight out of central casting.

    How well are you paid to play this character?

  129. 158

    Don Joe spews:

    @153

    You’re such an nice guy, Don Joe.

    Yeah, well, these are the facts. I have, twice and rather politely, asked for a return to the issues. You have responded with school-yard name-calling.

    Now, you have that right. You are free to make that choice. However, the fact that you’ve chosen not to return to the issues does mean that you’ve lost the debate.

    As for me, I’m going to head back to the crib and grease down.

  130. 159

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    What specific ‘school-yard name calling” are you referring to?

    I swear, I haven’t resorted to that since 1962!

  131. 160

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    “You’re a detestable buffoon”

    I rather like that. It’s kind of a badge of honor. Can we get them as refrigerator magnets?

  132. 161

    Don Joe spews:

    @159

    Calling someone a coward is pretty much school-yard name-calling. Whether or not you believe it’s true doesn’t change that fact.

    And, I’ll repeat, you are certainly entitled to that particular opinion. If you think you’re taking some kind of skin off my nose, then you’re sadly mistaken.

    Maybe it justifies some form of righteous indignation, but you certainly aren’t the first person to conjure up some spurious reason to think himself better than me. And I seriously don’t think you’ll be the last.

    All I really care about is the rhetoric, and calling me names, however much you think it’s justified, does forfeit the argument.

  133. 164

    Michael spews:

    @155

    Here’s the real deal about Tyrone. His murderers have never been caught. He was gunned down in cold blood while he was walking home.

    If no one’s been caught, you can’t make the above statement.

  134. 167

    Don Joe spews:

    @163

    I agree Don Joe that name calling is immature.

    Good. Perhaps, now, we can return to the issues?

    So why to leftist constantly do it?

    Um, so “leftist” isn’t name calling? Why do you constantly do it, Bill?

  135. 168

    Steve spews:

    My first black friend to die killed himself when he was 12 years old. I was best friends with his younger brother. One detention center where I lived, the only black kid to previously live there had “drowned”, but he had been murdered and it was a coverup. I lived with his murderers. The next black kid to live there was a friend from the projects. Before he showed up I let it be known that anybody who fucked with him was fucking with me. Nobody fucked with him except the people who ran the place. Their cruelity was something else. The next black guy to die received a shotgun blast to the chest when he answered the door at home. The murder was never solved. He was a junior at Franklin.

    My best friends all my life have been blacks. I’ve lived in the projects with them. I lived in detention centers with them. I ran around to black clubs and taverns in the CD with them. I lived in the CD. I played in one of the first mixed race bands with blacks in a CD nightclub called the African Hut. I’ve partied with Black Panthers. A number of them were to die violent deaths. I’ve hung out with blacks from the CD to East Palo Alto and Oakland.

    I’ve said most of this stuff before. I say it here because Bill mentions “cred” and says he has it. I say to you all, I have no “cred”, and Bill has no “cred”. There is no such thing as “cred”. “Cred” in this context is only a thought, a white man’s thought, and a fleeting one at best. I meet a black and I start over from scratch. Every time. That leaves me no different and with no more cred than anybody else posting here. Please believe me when I say that the last thing I’d ever do when meeting a new black person would be to express my creds. That’d be just so much bullshit.

    I’d like to hear no more talk of cred, Bill. If I don’t have it, then you certainly don’t have it.

    Merry Christmas, everybody!

  136. 169

    Steve spews:

    One thing that might have been somewhat unique for me was that there was never any mention of race in my home. Ever. Nada. Not one word. It wasn’t until after my Mom died that I encountered such a thing, that is, even the mere mention of race. That was in my second foster home, a couple months after my Mom died. I would soon learn that the man of the house was a brutally violent racist. Before I picked up on that, I had gone back to the projects and to visit and spend the night at my best friend’s house. I didn’t mention color. He was just my friend. Not much later the man went off on blacks a few times. “Niggers this” and “niggers that”. His wife seemed kind enough so I approached her one day and told her that my best friend who I had recently visited was “colored” and I was worried that the man would, well, have an issue with it, I guess. She ratted on me and before dinner that night I was confronted. It was very ugly. In short, I was nearly beaten to death for having a black friend and I was told I could never see him again. If I did, I’d get an even worse beating. I did sneak back about a year later and got away with it. I didn’t know how to put it into words at the time, but I was really there to say goodbye, without really saying so. Everything was different at that point. I’d say we both needed to move on.

    After nearly fifty years, I got in touch with that friend a little over year ago through Classmates.com. We’re planning on a get together one of these days. In his notes to me he talked a little about how he had become a teacher and then later, a school principal. He didn’t mention the district and I didn’t ask. He’s now retired.

    Not long after that contact I was having dinner with a friend of mine, a retired former superintendant of the Seattle School District. During dinner I asked him, “Say, did you ever know so-and-so?” The guy lit up like a Christmas tree. It turns out he was the one who had promoted my childhood friend to principal. At one point he exclaims to me, “What a fine principal he was, and a such good man!” I’m still soaking up those words. It made me so very proud to hear that.

    As much as I would like to see my friend again, I might want even more to see his Mom. She showed me extraordinary kindness back in the day. She’s getting on in years. I need to do this soon. He lives with her now, taking care of her, back in the housing project where we both started out. It’d be the closest experience I’ll ever know to “going home”, something I’ve never been able to do in this life.

  137. 170

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Steve, I never said I had “cred”. I’ve just always tried to treat people the way I’d like to to be treated. I’ve been in an interracial marriage for 32-years. Does that give me some sort of “cred”? . I’ve never thought about it that way. I worked at the Goodwill store on Dearborn back in the early ’70’s. Sheesh, there were blacks, indians, chinese, you name it. We all got along and had fun working together. We teased each other but no one was “offended” the way people are now. I was referring to “Don Joe”

    I really enjoyed your post @ #169. What a wonderful success story! I hope you and your friend get together.

    Have a very Merry Christmas, Steve.

  138. 171

    Steve spews:

    @170 That kid that came in that place I mentioned following the murder, the last time I ran into him was back in the early 70’s at the Goodwill store on Dearborn. It seemed like he was doing fine.

    I was always going to that store back then, and later occasionally through the years. I’d visit, if for no other reason, just to take another look at Slo Mo. I think Miss Thriftway was there for a while too. But it was always fun to browse books, go through electronics, and then the sporting goods, car stuff and tools. When I first started going there they were selling wooden skies, hickory-shafted golf clubs, and old Philco tube televisions.

  139. 172

    Don Joe spews:

    @170

    I was referring to “Don Joe”

    Looks like my refusal to play your game is really getting under your skin, Bill (or is that “Bill”? I don’t know).

    If you really are no longer interested in defending your claim that these tragedies are caused by liberal policies, then it’d be rather kind of you, on this Christmas day, to come out and say so.

    In the mean time, have a merry Christmas, Bill.

  140. 173

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Steve, neither the Slo-Mo, or the Thriftway were ever displayed at the Dearborn Goodwill. However, the ’58 Miss Bardahl was there for years. If you remember those boats you really are an old Seattleite! Do you know about the Hydroplane Museum? They’ve restored that ’58 Bardahl, The Thriftway, both Slo-Mos, and other boats. All to running condition, and they do run them. We’ve been museum members for a long time.

  141. 174

    Steve spews:

    Starting back @27 you started laying all the blame for the, um, black condition, on the left. I couldn’t help but notice that you found no blame whatsoever with conservatives. I thought that a significant omission. And other than to blame black liberal activists, you didn’t hold the black community’s feet to the fire either. Everything was the fault of the left. Now, I can be very critical of the left in regards to these matters. I can speak my mind on what I see as their failures, especially their failure to gain from lessons that should have been learned. I can also, though reluctantly, speak to what I see as the failures of the black community. When I heard Cosby, I heard a man speaking to many of my own thoughts.

    I am someone willing to have a discussion. I would discuss this with left, right, black, white – I don’t care. But I will not discuss this matter with anybody unwilling to look at their own side with an open mind and a willingness to be self critical. I will not waste my time that way. That’s why I will not pursue this subject with Puddy. A conversation with someone like him who, for example is utterly unwilling to grant John Kennedy with even a drop of credit for the Civil Rights Act and who will only credit Republicans is not worth my time.

    We got off on the wrong foot. That’s not a surprise. This is the cesspool. Trolls come here to disrupt and be an ass. I have my ways of dealing with that. But who knows? Maybe your willing to have a discussion instead. If not, we’re back to the usual program of bashing each other in spite of what common ground we might share. For me, that’s getting kind of old. And it hasn’t solved a damned thing.

  142. 175

    Steve spews:

    I do recall that Bardahl was there. But I thought that was later. I may have mixed up Slo Mo’s location with the Museum of History and Industry. I somehow recall that one of the Thriftways was there, but not for long. Eh, but I wouldn’t bet on it. It was so long ago. The one friend I had that might remember, John Benson, a guy big into the races and the hydro museum, died a couple years ago. Maybe you knew him.

    I used to have one of those Miss Thriftway wooden models they sold back in the day. I always thought that was pretty cool. I believe it was based on the first Miss Thriftway.

  143. 176

    Don Joe spews:

    @174

    But I will not discuss this matter with anybody unwilling to look at their own side with an open mind and a willingness to be self critical.

    I just finished reading Grisham’s latest, The Confession. It’s also a gut-wrenching story about a young man who confessed, due to some of the interrogation techniques that the police have been known to use, to a murder he did not commit. He’s on death row, days away from his execution, when the real killer steps forward to claim responsibility for the murder.

    A key part of the story is the extent to which people, particularly the victim’s family, are too vested in their own sense of victimhood to believe the real killer’s confession. They have their villain, and they are intent on eaxcting their revenge.

    Bill reminds me of these characters in Grisham’s story. He has his villains, us “leftists,” and he’s intent on exacting his revenge regardless of what the facts might be. I think he’ll find some excuse to avoid an honest discussion with you just like he’s found an excuse to avoid an honest debate with me.

  144. 177

    Zotz sez: The microchip in Klynical's ass was transmitting 6... 6... 6... spews:

    @174: Wow! That was brilliant.

    Trolls come here to disrupt and be an ass. I have my ways of dealing with that. But who knows? Maybe your willing to have a discussion instead. If not, we’re back to the usual program of bashing each other in spite of what common ground we might share. For me, that’s getting kind of old. And it hasn’t solved a damned thing.

    “Bill” reminds me of losty (IF he isn’t losty) — same smarmy, talking point bullshit. It’s kind of pathetic — and pointless as you said so well.

  145. 178

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Steve, I stand by what I said at #27. Liberal policies have not helped the black community. It’s simply not possible to have a 70% single parenthood rate and not see consequences. We’ve seen the same thing happen in our own family. Multiple children with different mothers. What’s the likely outcome? My point was that there is a much greater chance of more positive outcomes in a traditional family setting. Liberals scoff at traditional families. Why do they do that? For the same reason that they mock Christmas every year. Liberals are controllers. They don’t want competition. Big government is their god.

    I’m more than willing to have a civil discussion. I haven’t called anyone a name. As you say, it’s a cesspool. Well, look at any left leaning blog. Same thing, lots of obscenities and vile hatred that no conservative could ever get away with. Read the Stranger. Can any of their writers come up with a column that isn’t filled with vulgarity? Oh, I forgot. Leftists think that is a mark of sophistication.

    Enough political ranting. We can agree to disagree. Here’s the website of the hydro museum: http://thunderboats.ning.com/

    Here’s a Christmas present, Steve. From one kid who grew up watching the hydros to another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCp261AgS64.

    That’s Col. Warner Gardner turning a 120mph lap back in 1968. There were only two other of those old round-nosed boats that ever broke 120. You get serious hydro street cred if you can name them!

  146. 179

    Don Joe spews:

    @178

    And here I was hoping you wouldn’t be so bloody predictable. After a long paragraph in which you regurgitate nearly every liberal stereotype in existence, you then boldly proclaim your willingness to have an “honest” discussion.

    I’m beginning to think that self-deception is the first, and possibly only, requirement for entrance into the Republican intellectual strong-hold–a place that’s safely ensconced away from any disturbing fact, where reality need not ever upset the ideological apple cart.

  147. 180

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Yes Don Joe. Do liberals stereotype conservatives? Oh no. You’re as pure as wind-driven snow on Christmas, aren’t you?

    If you’re a conservative Republican you hear it day after day: “party the rich” ,(never mind that the richest members of Congress are Democrats). “nazis”, “fear mongers”, “hate mongers”, “war criminals”, the list goes on, and on. If you were honest with yourself you’d do a search on Sarah Palin. The left has relentlessly bashed this decent woman for over three years. If you want to play the stereotype game you might take a serious look at how the left portrays anyone who disagrees with them.

  148. 181

    Don Joe spews:

    By the way,

    Liberal policies have not helped the black community.

    That’s not even an accurate restatement of your claim @27. Here’s what you actually said:

    Democrat welfare programs created this nightmare

    Is this your notion of an “honest” discussion? You can’t even own up to an accurate restatement of your own position, yet you want us to believe that you’re interested in an honest discussion?

  149. 182

    Don Joe spews:

    @180

    Do liberals stereotype conservatives? Oh no. You’re as pure as wind-driven snow on Christmas, aren’t you?

    I’ll be the first to admit that liberals stereotype conservatives, and I don’t recall ever claiming that liberals are “pure as the wind-driven snow.” Will you ever engage in a debate without such shoddily-constructed str a men?

    Rarely, however, will you ever see a liberal spew such stereotypes, while, at the same time, proclaiming a willingness to engage in an “honest” discussion. Most liberals know that a truly honest discussion cannot begin with something that’s fundamentally dishonest.

  150. 183

    Zotz sez: The microchip in Klynical's ass was transmitting 6... 6... 6... spews:

    “nazis”, “fear mongers”, “hate mongers”, “war criminals”, the list goes on, and on. If you were honest with yourself you’d do a search on Sarah Palin. The left has relentlessly bashed this decent woman for over three years.

    Fuck’n A! Beyond doubt now: He IS deeply delusional.

  151. 184

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    In my experience most liberal discussions begin with painting conservatives as “homophobes”, “racists”, “nazis”, and “the rich”. I’ve seen it a thousand times. It’s right our of you tiresome liberal playbook. When we stand up to you and tell you about yourselves you get upset. You throw out the f-word and make personal insults. Very revealing for those on the fence.

  152. 185

    Blue John spews:

    Liberals scoff at traditional families. This is not true and you know it.

    What liberals do is scoff at those who think traditional families are the ONLY good families. My partner and I have been together for 16 years, longer than a lot of straight marriages. Our son is doing fine, thank you very much. How much tolerance do conservatives have have for families who don’t fit their mold?

  153. 186

    Blue John spews:

    Liberal policies have not helped the black community. It’s simply not possible to have a 70% single parenthood rate and not see consequences.
    I’ve been having a great Christmas with family. Did he say WHICH liberal policies he objects so?

    If you could by executive order tomorrow negate AFDC, what do you imagine the realistic consequences for the families that used to be on AFDC would be?

  154. 187

    Blue John spews:

    174. Steve spews: Starting back @27 you started laying all the blame for the, um, black condition, on the left. I couldn’t help but notice that you found no blame whatsoever with conservatives.
    Good observation.

  155. 188

    Don Joe spews:

    @184

    In my experience most liberal discussions begin with painting conservatives as “homophobes”, “racists”, “nazis”, and “the rich”.

    Then I do have to wonder where you get your experience. Take the latest flak over Haley Barbour’s recollection of the role that Citizens’ Councils played in desegregation. There’s a lot more effort into defending Haley Barbour from charges of being a racist than there are actual charges that he is a racist.

    The typical comments from the left are things like this piece from Matthew Yglesias and this piece by Ta-Nehisi Coates.

    I look at these, and I see an entirely different playbook. I see conservative bloggers, like William Jacobsen, attributing an argument to Yglesias that Yglesias never made–a lot of bluster over men of straw, which detracts from the actual point that has been made.

    So…

    When we stand up to you and tell you about yourselves you get upset.

    Because, more often then not, when you deign to tell us about ourselves you manage to get significant parts of the story all wrong. And, then you wonder why we respond with profanity?!

    Very revealing for those on the fence.

    No shit, Sherlock. I wonder how many people sitting on the fence have noticed your refusal to return to a discussion of the issues in this thread, preferring, instead, to waste your time calling me a coward.

    Most of all, none of this prevents you from actually engaging in an honest discussion of the issues. What does, however, prevent you from engaging in an honest discussion of the issues is the fact that you start out by being dishonest.

    I want to close by pointing out that your complaints about liberals are vague generalizations, whereas I’ve provided a specific example that counters your generalization. That’s known as rebutting an inductive argument. Consider that your rhetorical lesson for the day–my Christmas gift to you. Please make wise use of it.

  156. 189

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Uh, “zotz” or whatever your cute little made up name is, today, When have you, on this lengthy thread, attempted anything resembling an adult discussion?

    Instead you post this sort of leftist garbage: “Fuck’n A! Beyond doubt now: He IS deeply delusional.”

    Reasoned conversation? No. This is how the far left rolls. I don’t need to stereotype them. They are far better at doing it than I am.

    I have to love these phonies. Imagine if just once Bill O’Reilly said “fuck” on his TV show. The left would be protesting and taking to the streets. They’d be happier than they are at Grateful Dead concerts.

    Hypocrites? Yeah. You cannot have a conversation with a leftist and disagree with them without them telling you to “get fucked”. Fine conclusive way to end a discussion.

  157. 190

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 189

    Hypocrites? Yeah. You cannot have a conversation with a leftist and disagree with them without them telling you to “get fucked”.

    No, Bill, Hypocrisy is calling someone a phony or a coward, and then proudly proclaiming that you don’t engage in name-calling. It’s constantly using the term “leftist” while remaining completely ignorant of the fact that it is a derogatory label than liberals generally don’t choose for themselves.

    When Jonah Goldberg compares school teachers to jack-booted SS officers in an attempt to claim that liberalism is fascism, none of us on the left are offended by the name-calling itself. We’re offended by the stupidity of the argument. Apparently, in Goldberg’s mind, the fact that those jack-booted SS officers carried guns and were quite willing to point them at you and shoot you if you didn’t toe the line had nothing to do with “fascism”!

    Really, Bill, climb down off that high horse of yours, before you fall off and break your neck.

  158. 191

    Rujax! Wishing All a Cool Yule!!! spews:

    @189…

    Shorter Bill Cruchon…

    …masturbating on my computer keyboard is fun but the keys get so sticky.

  159. 192

    Don Joe spews:

    Bill, I don’t know if you are a Christian, but this is what Jesus had to say about hypocrisy. Your preoccupation with the faults of others precludes you from seeing your own faults. Perhaps it’s better to ignore the faults of others, and focus on the argument itself? I would suggest that you would sway far more fence-sitters than your current efforts.

  160. 193

    Zotz sez: The microchip in Klynical's ass was transmitting 6... 6... 6... spews:

    and focus on the argument itself

    Argument? What argument?

    “Bill’s” shit is mediocre trash even for a Freeper.

    I marvel (and feel a lttle pity about what “Bill’s” life must be be like) that he continues to spew electrons here. I think Rujax!’s assessment @191 is basically correct.

    I also marvel at the patience some of us have shown “him”.

    Whatever.

    Reasoned conversation requires at least two reasonable persons. “Bill” demonstrated about 175 comments ago he’s not one of them.

  161. 194

    Steve spews:

    “Liberal policies have not helped the black community.”

    I wish I had more time today. I’m sorry that I don’t. I started what I hoped would be a thoughtful follow-up comment, but find that I don’t have time to finish it. I saved what I wrote into a word doc to pick up later. I’m wanting to show a willingness to be critical of myself, the left, and the Equal Opportunity Act(s). I thought it might be a good first step in the direction of meaningful dialog. Frankly, it was also intended to see if I could draw out some criticism from you of the right. I believe progress toward meaningful dialog might be made by starting with our offering criticism of ourselves and our own sides, rather than each other. Sigh! I hope to drop back in later today or maybe tomorrow.

    I’m a bit saddened to see that the conversation here hasn’t gone anywhere. That’s not to blame the people posting. I blame myself really, for not having the time to try to steer the conversation in the direction I would rather have seen it take.

    I don’t recall the 120 mph lap records off the top of my head. I do readily recall the one-mile speed records held by Slo Mo, then Hawaii Kai (Regas), Maverick (Stead), Thriftway and then US One (both Muncey). In that order, as I recall. But I might be wrong. It’s been a long time. Like most kids of the day, I had my little wooden hydro tied by a string to my bike. My favorite was always the series of Miss Thriftways driven by Bill Muncey. I was too young to be aware of hydros when Slo Mo was racing. In fact, Slo Mo might have won it’s first Gold Cup the year I was born.

  162. 195

    Steve spews:

    @190 “When Jonah Goldberg compares school teachers to jack-booted SS officers in an attempt to claim that liberalism is fascism, none of us on the left are offended by the name-calling itself. We’re offended by the stupidity of the argument.”

    I like that. Spot on, as I see it.

  163. 196

    Michael spews:

    Hmm… Mr. Cruchon keeps blaming liberals and liberalism for the brake down of the family, but the rate of single parent households gets lower the further left a country is on the political spectrum, Denmark’s at about 20%.

    Wow, this guy is really full of shit.

  164. 197

    Michael spews:

    I blame myself really, for not having the time to try to steer the conversation in the direction I would rather have seen it take.

    Wouldn’t worry about it. As far as I’m concerned when someone comes on here and spews fact free crap and then complains about people acting like they’re in the comment threads of HA or something, it’s time for some pretty creative fucking cursing at the glory-hole loving chickenheads.

    I did a few Google searches around what Bill’s talking about and he’s so far off the mark that it’s laughable.

    Come in here with facts that are actually facts and positions that aren’t completely whacked and we can have a nice discussion. Bill came in here spouting garbage and calling names.

  165. 198

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    Steve, you’ve got a great memory! The 3-old round-nosed boats that topped 120 in qualifying were Maverick, in 1958, Miss Exide, in 1965, and Miss Eagle Electric in 1968.

    Exide, that had once raced as Miss Wahoo was famed for using nitrous oxide to give her a little boost coming out the turns. The press asked driver Bill Brow after he set the qualifying record if he’d used nitrous. Brow shrugged, “we didn’t need it”.

    Maverick amazingly used an aux-stage Allison. Danged cool!

  166. 199

    Steve spews:

    Just dropping in again before going back for a third helping of turkey. Now that I think of it, Thriftway may have set the one-mile record in 1955 or so, and then it was snatched away by Hawaii Kai, the “Champagne Lady”. I was a Thriftway fan, but Hawaii Kai was the most beautiful hydro ever and, in it’s brief time on the circuit, the fastest. Writing this, I just recalled the Such Crust boats with “Wild Bill” Cantrell, Miss Spokane, Miss Burien, Miss Coral Reef (?) and Miss Thriftway’s name change to Miss Century 21, Mira Slovak (I think he might have piloted Miss Exide), Ron Musson and Dean Chenoweth. Sigh! Hydro memories. OK, now back to the turkey.

  167. 200

    Blue John spews:

    Bill, I’ll try a reasonable question for you within this thread.

    You said
    “Liberal policies have not helped the black community. It’s simply not possible to have a 70% single parenthood rate and not see consequences.”

    WHICH liberal policies would you like to eliminate? and
    WHAT would you like to replace them with?

  168. 201

    Blue John spews:

    Bill
    If you could by executive order tomorrow negate AFDC, what do you imagine the realistic consequences for the families that used to be on AFDC would be?

  169. 202

    Bill Cruchon spews:

    What you really need to confront is why there is a 70% rate of single parenthood in the African American community It’s because of the policies of the Lyndon Johnson “Great Society” welfare programs.

    That is simply a fact. It is not disputed. Liberals love it because they count on ignorance as part of their voting base. Do they really care about people? No, they care about saving their cushy government jobs.

  170. 203

    Michael spews:

    @202

    What you really need to confront is why there is a 70% rate of single parenthood in the African American community It’s because of the policies of the Lyndon Johnson “Great Society” welfare programs.

    What about extended families having a greater and more important role in African-American families than in white families? Couldn’t that play a role?

  171. 204

    Rujax! spews:

    202. Bill Cruchon spews:

    What you really need to confront is why there is a 70% rate of single parenthood in the African American community It’s because of the policies of the Lyndon Johnson “Great Society” welfare programs.

    That is simply a fact. It is not disputed. Liberals love it because they count on ignorance as part of their voting base. Do they really care about people? No, they care about saving their cushy government jobs.

    12/25/2010 at 7:45 pm

    Bill…that’s just crap.

    It’s jobsjobsjobsjobsjobs…jobs.

    Get it? Give a man a chance to do something and he’ll do it. There was a systematic, institionalized program to destroy the black middle class in this country…which almost got off the ground after the Civil War and and tried again to take hold after WWII. This was a pre-cursor to the current destruction of the rest of the middle class and the emptying of the treasury by the financial services (banks, investment houses and insurance comanies)industry and the military industrial complex aided and abtted by useful idiots on both sides of the aisles in Congress.

    You and so many others have swallowed this “it’s all the liberals fault” sold with deadly ability by the greatest pitchman Ronald Reagan.

    Wake up brother. it’s time to do something different.

  172. 205

    Rujax! spews:

    @203…

    Michael, Cruchon really does not know what he’s talking about. All he can do is regurgitate Reagan era talking points.

  173. 206

    Michael spews:

    @202

    With 65% of black kids living in single parent households in 2000 and 67% of black kids living in single parent households in 2009, it’s not like you can argue that the Republicans or conservatives have an agenda that brings the rate down, can you?

    Historically, the rate of black kids living in single parent households has been about three time the rate of that of white kids living in single family house holds. In 2009 24% (24×3=72) of white kids lived in single family households and 67% of black kids lived in single family households.

    Remind me again what your point was.

  174. 207

    Michael spews:

    @205

    Yeah, I’m having fun beating up on him. It took me about 3 minutes with Teh Google to blow all sorts of holes in his story.

  175. 208

    Blue John spews:

    Bill, “It’s because of the policies of the Lyndon Johnson “Great Society” welfare programs. “
    I get that. You keep repeating that over and over.
    Since you won’t break them out, I’ll take a stab at it. You would get rid of

    Welfare, which includes support for poor single moms, disabled people, handicapped people, widows and orphans (because that helps some black poor families)
    and

    The War on Poverty spawned dozens of programs, among them

    the Job Corps, whose purpose was to help disadvantaged youth develop marketable skills;

    the Neighborhood Youth Corps, established to give poor urban youths work experience and to encourage them to stay in school;

    Volunteers in Service to America (VISTA), a domestic version of the Peace Corps, which placed concerned citizens with community-based agencies to work towards empowerment of the poor;

    the Model Cities Program for urban redevelopment;

    Upward Bound, which assisted poor high school students entering college;

    legal services for the poor ( I can see why conservatives despise this entry );

    the Food Stamps program;

    and Project Head Start, which offered preschool education for poor children.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.....on_Poverty

    I don’t see how that list directly causes the destruction of black families but for this discussion, I’ll imagine they are zeroed out in Jan, 2011

    WHAT do you propose to replace them with?

    WHAT will the consequences be for the families who relied on them?

  176. 209

    Michael spews:

    @208

    Harvard did a study (I seem to have lost the link) looking at African American single parent households going back to the late 1800’s. What they found was that the % of African American single family households was consistently 2 to 3 times higher than that of white families. Right now the rate is about 2.8 times higher for blacks than whites. So good old LBJ and his dastardly great society programs had no effect on the rate at which black kids are raised in single parent families.

  177. 210

    Michael spews:

    @205
    The crap Billy’s spewing goes back to at least ’65 and the push-back to The Moynihan Report.

  178. 211

    Don Joe spews:

    @ 202

    What you really need to confront is why there is a 70% rate of single parenthood in the African American community It’s because of the policies of the Lyndon Johnson “Great Society” welfare programs.

    That is simply a fact. It is not disputed.

    The only fact, not disputed, is the 70% rate of single parenthood. That this has been caused by welfare–singular; there is no plural; AFDC/TANF is it–has not only been disputed, it’s been refuted. (AFDC and TANF are basically the same thing under different names.)

    The additional, undisputed facts are:

    1) There is an inverse correlation between AFDC and violent crime.

    2) One of the most significant factors contributing to violent crime is broken families. In other words, there is a direct correlation between broken families and violent crime.

    3) We have no studies showing any correlation, either inverse or direct, between AFDC and broken families.

    Now, your argument relies on the intuitive assumption that AFDC causes an increase in the incidents of broken families. It also relies on the notion that causation is transitive, i.e. if AFDC causes an increase in the incidents of broken families, and one of the more significant causes of violent crime is broken families, then AFDC is a cause of violent crime.

    But, this results in the rather novel situation in which A causes C, yet inversely correlates to C. This is, indeed, a contradiction, and leads directly to the conclusion that your intuitive assumption regarding a causal link between AFDC and broken families is false.

    This is simple, first-order logic, and is essentially the same argument I stated back in my comment @93.

    Liberals love it because they count on ignorance as part of their voting base.

    You have four liberals here who have been willing to discuss this issue using reason and logic. Yet, you persist in painting all of us with this kind of broad brush. Is there any wonder why you are so often dismissed as being not serious?

    By the way, none of this should be taken to mean that I believe the current welfare system is without flaws. I’m quite willing to entertain suggestions for improvement.

    A discussion that begins with a flawed claim that all of the ills that plague the African American community cat be laid squarely at the feet of liberal social welfare programs, however, is not one that is open to either logic or reason. It’s nothing more than a close-minded rant.

  179. 212

    Steve spews:

    @202 “That is simply a fact. It is not disputed.”

    It is not a fact. That is beyond dispute.

    I don’t blame conservatism. You shouldn’t blame liberalism. I blame just about everybody, left, right, up and down, every color. Me. You. All of us. We have all had a hand in it one way or another. We all own this problem because all of us are the problem.

    @204 “It’s jobsjobsjobsjobsjobs…jobs.”

    I understand, but I use the words freedom and opportunity. Things that worth living for and even worth fighting and dying for. Not just for me and mine, but also for you and yours.

  180. 213

    Michael spews:

    @ Don Joe,

    In my quick perusal of the lit, I did find one curious little thing. The rate of single parent households for all races held steady from the late 1800’s until about 1960. The numbers took a jump in the early 60’s and again in the early 70’s, both of which coincide with jumps in the number of cars owned by American’s. But there was no mention of the ability of someone to hop in a car and just take off as a possible reason for the jump. Huh?

    Try taking off from home and not taking care of your kid when you’re walking out of town at 3MPH and everyone knows you and can see you- like in the rural south back in the day. Much easier to do when you live in a big, anonymous, northern city and you have a car.

  181. 214

    Don Joe spews:

    @212

    The advice I gave to my sister-in-law when she got married was, trying to figure out who’s at fault is a complete waste of time. It never solves the problem.

    No policy is ever perfect out of the box. You generally have to tinker with it. Partisan bickering tends to get in the way of that sort of thing, which is why I generally count myself as an independent. Indeed, I think it’d be a really good thing for the Republican party to get its shit together.

  182. 215

    Don Joe spews:

    @213

    But there was no mention of the ability of someone to hop in a car and just take off as a possible reason for the jump.

    Oh, there are a slew of things to think about. First, while the recent trend in unwed motherhood is increasing, the vast majority of that does not involve teen pregnancy. The most significant increase is among women aged 24 to 29 (if I recall the numbers correctly).

    But, seriously, if we want to find the single, most pervasive, cause of the destruction of African American families, I don’t think we need to look any further than the war on drugs. Lee has done an excellent job of posting the statistics, but the racial disparity in arrests, convictions and sentencing vis-a-vis incidents of use is stark. And it’s damn hard to have a coherent nuclear family when one of the parents is in prison.