Picking apart government, one anecdote at a time

Bruce Ramsey, the Seattle Times editorial board’s resident libertarian (you know, the one who hates government on principle), chronicles the travails of a would-be gentleman farmer who has given up his dream of tilling 89 acres of Snoqualmie Valley hillside and bottomland due to excessive King County rules and regulations. And while it’s hard to defend the permitting hassles Ramsey cites, at least offhand, there was one paragraph that kinda jumped out at me (the emphasis is mine):

To pave a driveway, the blueprint — one sheet — cost $1,000. The county, which funds its permit department through fees, wanted $22,000 to review the one sheet. Capeder hired a lawyer, and they settled for $10,000.

A thousand dollars for a one sheet blue print? Another $22,000 to review it? That sounds rather outrageous, and it doesn’t take a libertarian to realize how such steep upfront permitting costs can discourage entrepreneurialism.

But this anecdote also demonstrates the delicate balance that government must strike every day in protecting and promoting the commonweal, while levying the costs of the services provided relative to the individual and communal benefits enjoyed, as fairly, pragmatically and efficiently as possible.

Still, setting aside those who would argue for little or no government regulation of private land (there’s no arguing with ideologues), let’s start from the assumption that the community as a whole benefits from land-use regulations and the permitting process it necessitates. After all, even Tim Eyman would object were I to purchase the house next door, knock it down, and propose to replace it with, say, a Hooters, or an auto-wrecking yard or something similarly out of place in the midst of a residential neighborhood… and rightly so.

On the other hand, Tim might also object were I simply to buy the house next door and propose to live in it, though in this case he would have no moral or legal right to stop me. So hyperbole aside, I think most of us can safely agree that there are limits to both the rights of the landowner, and the rights the community to limit the rights of the landowner.

With that established, let’s get back to the woes of our gentleman farmer. $22,000 to review a permit for a driveway sure does sound excessive, though given the size of the property, I’m guessing were not talking your typical, 40-foot residential driveway here, but rather something more akin to a private road through agricultural land, with all the environmental impact that implies. So whether the fee was $22,000, or the $10,000 figure on which the department finally settled, let’s just assume that this represents the actual cost of reviewing the permit in a manner thorough enough to actually meet the intent of the rule that requires the permit in the first place.

Now, who should pay for this?

There is an awfully strong argument to make that developers should pay for the cost of permitting and inspecting their own projects, as they’re the ones who enjoy the most immediate economic benefit from their developments. And make no mistake, that’s what Ramsey’s gentleman farmer is — a developer — for the permits in question are not for farming, but rather for the development he proposed to build processing, retail and tourist facilities on his property, and the private road driveway to get there. Ramsey’s column is titled “Rules and roadblocks make farmland difficult to farm,” but that’s a bit misleading, as it’s the agribusiness related land development that is the subject of permitting, not the farming itself, and the question of whether farming such expensive land is economically viable without this development is still an open question.

I’m not arguing against this guy’s integrated farm/processor/retail/tourism concept; I think it’s a brilliant, creative approach to turning expensive exurban farmland into an economically viable operation, and I’d love to see him succeed here in King County rather than Skagit. But the concept requires building stuff, building stuff requires permitting, permitting costs money… and somebody’s got to pay for it. If it works, our gentleman farmer stands to make a pretty penny off his venture, so shouldn’t he pay for the costs of starting it up, rather than shifting the cost to taxpayers like me and Ramsey?

On the other hand, by requiring the permitting department to recover the costs of its operations solely from its users, perhaps we’ve made the upfront costs of development too high, discouraging such innovative projects that would ultimately prove an economic boon to the surrounding community, while keeping precious farmland in use as such? Perhaps the benefits to the community of such development are so great, that we should all bear the costs? Perhaps by shifting the cost of an essential government service to the individual user, we’ve made the service unaffordable, and tipped the balance too far in one direction?

For example, as homeowners, we all pay a not insubstantial portion of our property tax each year to fund the local fire department, a government service most of us will never use. But were we to shift the cost of firefighting to the individual user, few would be able to afford the service; imagine losing everything you own in a fire, only to have the fire department hand you a $50,000 bill for snuffing out the flames. Yet like the land-use permits, we can’t make firefighting optional, as failing to fight your fire would put my property at risk as well.

That would be ridiculous, of course, and so we socialize the cost of firefighting and other essential services by forcibly collecting it from the community as a whole in the form of taxes. Nobody likes to pay taxes, not even tax-and-spend liberals like me. But we all benefit from the services and infrastructure they fund.

So perhaps, if the cost of permitting a “driveway” through 89 acres of Snoqualmie Valley farmland is too high, and the benefits to the community of such development are so great, then perhaps we should shift some of the costs incurred by the permitting process away from the individual user and onto the community at large… you know, us taxpayers? I’m not arguing for this shift, just that these sort of equations are part of the delicate balance between the needs and rights of the individual and the needs and rights of the community that every functioning government must strike.

And that is the irony of Ramsey calling out the self-funding nature of the permitting department, for while he no doubt would prefer that such permits weren’t required at all, this anecdote only serves to illustrate the broader nature of government and the inherent flaws in the libertarian agenda as a whole. For when we devolve government services and infrastructure, shifting the costs from the community to the individual users, either  through “user fees,” or ultimately through privatization, much of what government provides ceases to be affordable to all but the wealthiest consumers.

The costs of some government services should be borne directly by users, and I’d argue that permitting fees generally fall into this category, though since my position is based on pragmatism not philosophy, I’m willing to consider the alternative. But while Ramsey is happy to lay out the $22,000 driveway permit as an example of government regulation run amuck, judging from his oeuvre I’m guessing he’d be unwilling to consider raising taxes on the rest of us — including himself — to help make such innovative development more affordable. Nor does he even attempt to engage in the question of whether there should or should not be a permitting process for paving a private road through agricultural land, or who, if anybody, should pay for it.

No, as the Times’ resident libertarian, Ramsey is content merely to grab a couple of anecdotes out of context and present them as an example of, well, of government regulation run amuck. And considering how little popular support there is here in King County for the kinda regulation-free, libertarian dystopia that would be the logical conclusion of the philosophy Ramsey appears to espouse, I’m just not sure that this moves the conversation anywhere.

Comments

  1. 1

    Michael spews:

    This paragraph jumped out at me:

    “He’s got a great idea,” says Julia Larson, the county’s coordinator for rural economic strategies. Several other farmers have had similar ideas, she says, and have made them work successfully.)

    So you can do this in King county after all.

  2. 3

    Michael spews:

    Someone should look up his permit and see just what kind of “driveway” he was trying to build.

  3. 4

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Kudos Goldy, on a rare sensible and nuanced piece. The general concept of user-payer is a good one.

    If I develop the acreage on which my cabin sits, for example, I don’t affect only my lot. I affect those living down river from me if I change drainage patterns by altering the riverbank or felling trees. I affect my neigbors who love the woodland setting and don’t want a McMansion near their rustic cabins. Accordingly the County has a real interest in verifying that my plans affect my neigbors and other County residents in accord with law and common sense. And since I benefit from property improvement I ought to pay for it.

    Addionally prior to buying a property anyone can go the building department of whatever city or county controls it and determine what development will cost and what will be allowed.

    Having said that a lot of the argument is with the costs themselves. I don’t mind paying my costs if they are really the costs. If they are general fund buildup that’s a different matter.

    Again, a for instance. Say I want to renovate a 1500 square foot 2 bedroom home on 2 acres with a wetland in one corner of the property, adding one bedroom and a bath onto the house. I will have to file permits for Critical Areas for the wetland, and should. I will have to prove that the septic or sewer system and the water system are capable of handling additional people living there and should. I would file a permit for all this which would require the review of permitting staff. All in all, on a complicated project, the county might have 30 hours spent, together with whatever office expenditures exist for these personnel hours. Assign a high number of $100 per hour (it isn’t anything like that, but for the sake of argument-) and you come to a total permitting cost of $3000 to the county. This project in King County will likely permit at closer to $10000.

    Now I’ve got the permit and finished excavating and forming for my foundation. I call the county to set up inspection per my permit. The inspector comes, may or may not leave his or her vehicle, signs the form and leaves. Foundation poured I frame the addition and call for framing. Again, the inspector may glance at the framing in passing, sign the permit and leave. I have never once seen an inspector verify compliance with wetland protection measures in 25 years in the industry. Quite the opposite, one job shut down because they never filed such a plan was back running in 2 days with no measures taken whatever.

    I don’t object to reasonable restrictions on my property as it does affect others. If we have it though it ought to be enforced properly and fairly, and it ought to reflect real permitting costs, not general fund fattening.

  4. 6

    lebowski spews:

    Goldy, you are so clueless about the plan review process that its embarrassing…you should have either passed this story up or done some more homework….a lot more homework.

    and yes, I deal with plan and design review on almost a daily basis.

  5. 8

    rhp6033 spews:

    I’m suspicious every time I read a story like this one. It’s awfully one-sided, and I bet there are a lot of things left out which are pretty pertinant to the discussion.

    Perhaps the “driveway/private road” would require some culverts to get over some wetlands on the way to the house or other outbuildings? was the driveway to service a farmhouse, or to also service the commercial aspects of his development, requiring an evaluation of the size of the highway cut, number and weight of vehicles it was supposed to support, etc.? Would the sheer volume of paved land from a combined driveway/parking lot result in increased off-flow of surface water onto neighboring properties, storm drains, etc?

    This sounds a lot like the news releases issued by insurance companies (or their mouthpieces) which describe how the insurance company was victimized by some outragious payout in a case. Often they use terms like saying the plaintiff “won a settlement”, to avoid mentioning that the insurance company actually agreed to pay the money after evaluating their risk at trial. When you finally get the real facts behind the story, you find it’s quite a bit different than was portrayed by the insurance company in the media.

  6. 10

    Mark Centz spews:

    #6 Sifl, since few of us work in this specialized field, why don’t you gift us the benefit of your insight, experience, and wisdom, rather than telling Goldie how stupid and clueless he (and by implication the rest of us lefties) are? Do you want to convince or just vent?

  7. 11

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    RE 4

    Before anyone picks it apart-

    I simplified permitting, inspections and associated costs radically so that the post didn’t go to book length. UBC is a very thick book which, in conjuction with local rules make this a very complicated process both for permitting and fee assesment. The principle is the same, but many many details were left out.

    None of that touched the use of land bought prior to regulations being enacted. That’s a whole different sore topic with little profit in following in this thread.

    I didn’t consider any government costs for law enforcement or fire departmens, schools et al. These costs are covered (or not) in property taxes, not permitting.

  8. 12

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    One last quick note, and then, ironically, I have to go down to the Building Department.

    In the years in which I’ve worked with various permit offices I have been impressed with the knowledge, creativity and helpfulness of these people. I’ve dealt with multi million dollar to tiny residential projects and gotten the same good treatment. But having heard all the complaints I have yet to share them myself. Granted I adopt the ‘treat them as though they are as important as they think they are’ attitude. But I’ve dealt with some very tricky issues from historical renovation to critical areas and generally g

  9. 13

    irgun sifl sybil spews:

    That’s the other sifl, Mr. Centz, my big brother Big. Learn to keep your homophobic sifls straight, so to speak, or get out of the game.

    Reagarding the original Sifl, this above all: Accept no substitutes. Original Sifl sent you mail, wayyyy over …. here, @104. He eagerly awaits your reply. SIFL SASE enclosed for your convenience.

  10. 15

    Richard Pope spews:

    Excellent piece, Goldy! However, the farmland is in the Snoqualmie Valley, as opposed to Snohomish Valley.

  11. 16

    Steve spews:

    “UBC is a very thick book”

    True, but you might want to get yourself a copy of the 2006 IBC and state amendments. As of July 2010, use the 2009 edition, although your permit will usually remain governed by whatever code it was permitted under at the time of application.

    http://sbcc.wa.gov/page.aspx?nid=4

  12. 17

    irgun sifl sybil spews:

    Excellent piece.

    Troll provides a link to yesterday’s KIRO interview. Listen and note: The agrarian developer’s concerns about the costs of permitting and review were not framed as expansive objections to the costs of government.

    They were selective objections to the costs of government being government in King County. The gentleman farmer was clear: In several surrounding counties he could do his agrarian reform at bureaucratic costs so much lower than King County’s that the differential would mean the difference between success and insolvency.

    My brief experience decades ago as a KC-BALD bureaucrat put me, for what little it’s worth, on Ramsey’s side of this, despite his defective analysis.

  13. 18

    uptown spews:

    My BS meter went off at “paved driveway” when talking about farmland. You know why Range Rovers are all the rage with the landed class in England? No paved roads on their land, and it gets real soggy there. Also, my sister has 70 acres in the mid-west and like most of her neighbors, has no paved driveway.

  14. 19

    Steve spews:

    @12 There’s the occasional rogue AHJ (Redmond FD during the 1990’s MS construction boom comes to mind) but most are great people and good to work with. Sometimes the AHJ ball is dropped. L&I hospital inspection in Eastern Washington during the 1980’s and early 90’s – shameful. Sprinkler heads glued to ceilings in a California school – disgraceful. But those are the rare exceptions. Inspectors are far more educated and qualified today. It used to be that (only slightly joking here), if you failed at a trade, you became an inspector.

  15. 20

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    I’m suspicious every time I read a story like this one. It’s awfully one-sided, and I bet there are a lot of things left out which are pretty pertinant to the discussion.

    Which one rhp6033? The linked story or Goldy’s “nuanced” presentation?

  16. 21

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Sprinkler heads glued to ceilings in a California school – disgraceful.

    Who ran the inspection teams… DUMMOCRAPTS?

  17. 22

    Steve spews:

    Oops, AHJ = authority having jurisdiction, a code term. Inspectors, plan reviewers, fire department, building department, Department of Health, the whole lot of them, all AHJ’s.

  18. 23

    Steve spews:

    @21 Um, I think it was a guy named Ronald Reagan. You’ve heard of him?

    Just kidding. It only happened under his watch as president, not governor. Still, it’s all his fault, of course. Or maybe Jimmy Carter’s, depending on one’s point of view.

  19. 24

    Ira Sacharoff spews:

    seems to me that if we value farmland and want it to stay that way, we the taxpayers should indeed help subsidize that. We the taxpayers subsidized Paul Allen both in the football stadium and in the development of South Lake Union. We voted to build the Seattle Art Museum.
    King County has some great soil and had some fabulous farmland all over. It should be preserved, and not just by calling it preserved. Give the guy a break, then tax him if he pulls it off and becomes successful in his venture.
    I’d rather subsidize a small farmer than Paul Allen.

  20. 26

    Michael spews:

    @18

    He wants to put in a processing plant and a store and maybe a B&B, like they do in Green Acres outside of Spokane. It’s a good model. And it requires more than just a little dirt driveway.

    Also note that when he complained about the permitting costs he got the costs lowered. #$@#&^# Government! I complained about the costs and they lowered them!

  21. 27

    Zotz spews:

    One thing most folks miss in this who pays the reviewer and how much issue is the inherent conflict of interest when the proponent pays. This becomes a huge issue after recent State Supreme Court decisions that require deference to “local jurisdictions”.

    Development fees are like crack to local government. If the planning department must depend on developer’s fees to exist, then “no” is almost never the answer, particularly outside of King County / Seattle.

    In short, I think it’s important to be sure the planning staff are working for the public and not the fees. That’s not likely if the county views the Department of Community Development as a “profit center”.

  22. 28

    Steve spews:

    “My BS meter went off at “paved driveway””

    It’s a good thing your BS meter still works because Klynical broke the HA Bullshit-o-Meter yesterday ranting about how “flying monkey” is a racial slur.

  23. 29

    spews:

    irgun @17,

    Putting aside the question of whether King County bureaucrats are doing their efficiently, or whether bureaucrats in surrounding counties are doing their jobs effectively, everything costs more in King County. Yet a Snoqualmie Valley farm would be closer to a much larger and more affluent market than one in Skagit County, so our gentleman farmer could presumably charge more, and sell more of it.

    Location, location, location…

  24. 30

    St. Ronnie spews:

    About those glued sprinkler heads that were not Reagan’s fault: Are you suggesting that they were, perhaps, lovable liberal progressive Democrat Moonbeam Jerry Brown’s fault?

  25. 31

    Michael spews:

    The other thing to think about is that permitting and bureaucratic costs are a “known cost.” Not down to the penny, but when you’re shopping for farmland you can figure out where its going to be cheaper or more expensive.

    Sounds to me like he didn’t do his homework.

  26. 33

    on location spews:

    Understood.

    Although the boutique farmer’s farm is not in Snohomish Valley, he specificially cited Snohomish County as a comparably attractive venue that would give him a good shot at running his blueberry mead-and-grog boutique at a profit instead of into the ground before even getting off the ground.

    Perhaps King County needs a more holistic understanding of the revenue stream that King County floats on.

  27. 34

    on location spews:

    Agreed, 31. Yesterday’s interview hinted that he’s a “farmer” in the sense that food snobs such as Jill Richardson, Michael Pollan, Alice Waters, and Frances Lappe are farmers.

    Pollan, for example, implies that he’s rooted to the soil and that his ideas about food and farming matter because he used to plant a garden.

  28. 35

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Quick note while waiting at Snohomish City Hall.

    The driveway wasn’t particularly complicated, but must have been fairly long. A one page blueprint means that no engineering hassles came up (culverts, bridges, poor soil etc) or it would have had to have had details dealing with these.

    The valuation of fees in King County is based on project value. They assume a given construction cost per square foot for heated space, unheated space, driveways etc, and assess fees in accordance with that valation. Hence a fairly long driveway to get to that high permit number.

    Micheal has it right in that no Seattle dwelling software engineer will visit his agritourism business without a paved drive. City dwellers don’t all have Range Rovers, and the Valley gets pretty soggy as well. This doesn’t mean the owner is a millionaire developer, simply that he is aware of what his projected customers might want.

    I still come back to the principle I use in all things. Forethought and planning would have told this gentleman what he could expect to pay for this drive, cheese cave etc prior to buying the property. He could then have negotiated with the county on a Master Use prior to purchase and known his costs, and whether the purchase made sense.

    Given enough prospective owners walking away based on excessive planning costs the county would change the fee structure at some point out of necessity.

  29. 36

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Steve,

    I didn’t overreact to flying monkeys because it was funny watching the recalcitrant one Dumb Bunny react… but that aside my friend… read this… Looks like they deleted the one person’s posts.

    It’s a level headed discussion around the Kentucky basketball team being called BlueGrass Flying Monkeys.

    Also I don’t know if you’ve ever run across this site but I have it linked. Look up the monkey word.

    The one that always got me was a black/chicano mixed person being called a WetBlack. Growing up the old joke was he didn’t know whether to live in the ghetto or the barrio.

    Now watch some fool call me a racist. Remember oppressed peeps can’t be racists – Jesse Jackson

  30. 38

    rhp6033 spews:

    Gee.

    Goldy’s original post pointed out that permit costs are a user fee, and that subsidizing them at some points might be appropriate if the proposed use had a public benefit.

    LIASOB pointed out that this “gentleman farmer” should have anticipated permitting costs before deciding to turn his farm into a commerical enterprise.

    Are we in danger of having a reasonable discussion here??????

  31. 39

    Daddy Love spews:

    No permits, no regulations, no land-use rules, no building codes.

    What you get is Haiti. That’s not what we want.

  32. 40

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re 39

    Fair enough. We need all those things, but Zotz (I agreed in part with Goldy and now with Zotz!) points out the problem.

    In most contractors and developers experience these aren’t used primarily as a method to ensure good building practices but to fill government coffers. That’s a bit of a conflict of interest. I pointed out in 4 a projected actual versus real cost for a permit. AHJs (thanks Steve for the definition) use these as cash cows, not as a way to regulate the industry. If fees reflected real costs and real consumer or social interests you’d get a lot less argument from contractors or developers about them.

  33. 41

    Alki Posting spews:

    Buy the lot next to Tim, and put in a hog waste lot. After all, it’s private land, you can do WHATEVER you want. We don’t need no “govment” telling us proud land owners what we can do with our land! ROTFLMAO

    These bitches would be the FIRST to complain if someone did this next to their little McMansions in the safe faraway suburbs. THEN they’d be screaming their pretty little heads off to some government (city/county/state) to MAKE you move your 25 metric tons of hog waste from next to their bedroom window. LOL

  34. 42

    rhp6033 spews:

    I work in a heavily regulated industry (Aerospace). I, and most of my colleagues in the industry, wouldn’t have it any other way. Bad things tend to happen when aircraft start falling out of the sky.

    What we do ask is that regulations be reasonably related to the goal they purport to achieve, and that they be evenly and fairly applied across the board to everyone in the industry.

    I think most of us could agree with that.

  35. 44

    rhp6033 spews:

    40: One of the problems with permit fees being assessed as a “use fee” is whether the amount is being determined based upon the cost of the entire enterprise (the entire building permit departments), or on an “incremental” basis. In other words, lots of permit applicants only want to pay the cost which their particular project “adds” to the workload of the department. The administrative overhead (buildings, maintenance, supervisors, code enforcement agents, finance people, etc.), they want to be paid by someone else.

    Of course, it’s a fair argument – how much of the overhead should the taxpayer bear in general, versus the permit applicant? As a hundred people and you would probably get a hundred different answers. If I go apply for a copy of one of my kid’s birth certificates, should I pay a proportionate share of the entire Vital Statistics department?

    But as budgets get tighter, and there is resistance against tax increases, expect a greater share of the county overhead to be passed along as “user fees” of one sort or another.

  36. 45

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re 42

    I was managing a project in utility vaults once. An OSHA inspector parked accross the street and watched (without identifying himself) for an hour as men went into and out of the vault.

    He walked over, wrote a fine for $10000 for not venting the space (a reasonable regulation that my subcon had tried to dodge my knowledge and in part due to my then inexperience) to the subcontractor. Who promptly asked if the man were that concerned about worker safety why he’d watched for an hour as the activity went on.

    This is the raw spot for contractors in my experience. Regulations for worker safety or consumer benefit or end user safety, fine. Regulate and enforce just to get money just ticks people off.

  37. 46

    Blue John spews:

    I agree if he was playing Gotcha! Could he have waiting to see if you vented it and when you showed no sign of it, then he wrote the ticket?

  38. 47

    Steve spews:

    Hmm, someone calling the “Kentucky Wildcats the Kentucky Bluegrass Flying Monkeys”. I can see how this one could be seen in a bad light, regardless of intent. Of course, the intent here could well be an expression of racism. I didn’t read all of the comments – many have been deleted now – not a good sign. I notice too, that the site is decidely non-political – some guy was having his avatar deleted just because it depicted an ex-president. In that context, it looks like this might have been really ugly and it was centered around someone spewing about basketball players, presumably black players, being flying monkeys. What can I say?

    Here at HA, a political site where left meets right in mortal combat, I doubt if flying monkey means anything other than what started as a reference to Malkin’s followers and is now expanded to include all wingnut trolls. Still, it bears watching.

    That’s quite the database of slurs. I hadn’t heard 99% of those. But how can “clown” possibly be considered a slur against the Irish? Just kidding. After looking at the first link, perhaps we should petition to have flying monkey added as a slur after all.

  39. 48

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re 46

    Good point, but no. After that I made it my business to take an OSHA course in enclosed spaces (vaults etc) Venting would have to have been done and a CO2 sniffer dropped into the vault prior to entry to meet regs.

    Again, the reg makes sense, the enforcement not so much. I mention this not so much to protest all regs, but to say if they are that compelling enforce them consistently regardless of fine. Or recall the reg if it isn’t that compelling. Either way the workload of a contractor would diminish, the fees would as well and both consumer and contractor would benefit.

  40. 49

    a sensitive liberal's guide to liberals and other afflictions spews:

    Uptight tonight at Dub Bookstore.

    Be there or be [] … you know. Not quite all there.

  41. 51

    Steve spews:

    I bet the contractor wasn’t the first to go into the vault. He likely let someone else, perhaps you, be the human “sniffer”. He possibly deserved more than just a monetary fine. He may well have knowingly risked someone’s life just to save a buck.

  42. 52

    Steve spews:

    “Again, the reg makes sense, the enforcement not so much.”

    Enforcement? But there’s only the one instance you mention, and even with that we don’t know all the facts, nor have we heard the OSHA inspector’s side of the story.

  43. 53

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re 50

    Absolutely. Were a worker to faint from CO2 or other gases in that vault we would have been unable to send someone in after him immediately. Retrieving and caring for him would have been very difficult.

    That’s why I say if a regulation is that compelling enforcement/education should preempt fines as a means of incentivizing compliance. I use this not as an anecdote for griping but as a general complaint in the industry. Some violate worker regs to save money, a lot actually. Fines are fully appropriate for these.

    I said a couple of times the enclosed space regulation was completely sensible.

  44. 54

    Steve spews:

    That’s what I don’t like about this, Lost, a an anecdote or two and next thing you know, people start believing all kinds of far-fetched notions about permitting, regulations and enforcement. It’s also what I don’t appreciate about what Bruce Ramsey wrote.

  45. 55

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re Steve

    I was managing the project and wouldn’t have been in the vault in normal circumstances. The blame lies mostly with me for not knowing 20 years ago on one of my first projects that the regulations existed. As noted I remedied that immediately.

    No we don’t have the inspectors side. Fair point.

  46. 56

    spews:

    Ramsay’s hit piece itself says that OTHER farmers in King County made similar plans work, so if this guy wasn’t able to, it’s an indictment of the King County system?

    That’s total bollocks, as the British would say, and lazy advocacy “journalism”.

  47. 57

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “After all, even Tim Eyman would object were I to purchase the house next door, knock it down, and propose to replace it with, say, a Hooters, or an auto-wrecking yard or something similarly out of place in the midst of a residential neighborhood…”

    Well, maybe not a Hooters …

  48. 58

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @4 First two paragraphs: Maybe there’s hope for you after all.

    The rest: You haven’t provided any evidence that BALD produces a profit for the county general fund. I’m under the impression it’s self-supporting through fees but not a cash cow. The 30 hours appears to be an assumption, and considering this is a commercial business development, not merely a farm, your staff time estimate seems low. Also, $100/hr for said staff time also seems low. This review is conducted by professionals making at least $70 – $80,000/yr and probably a team of several people are reviewing the plans. There’s also rent and utilities to pay, equipment to purchase and maintain, and so on. A few years ago, in the private sector, an average budget was $150K/yr for a factory production job — there are way more expenses than just the worker’s wage or salary. If BALD’s fees are just paying for BALD, and nobody is embezzling, then by definition the fees are reasonable and necessary, unless you adopt Cynical’s meme that all public workers should be paid less than competitive wages simply because they’re public workers. As for whether BALD is well run or poorly run, I would think that such factors as accuracy, professionalism, and turnaround time (i.e., service) would matter more to builders and developers than making the fees as cheap as possible. You get what you pay for.

    @18 Well, of course, we’re talking a paved commercial-width roadway here, in order to accomodate all the tourists and retail customers this guy needs to make his business model work. Obviously he doesn’t want to limit his potential customer base to the Range Rover-enabled.

    @20, 21 Zero substance, wasted pixels.

    @26 Don’t overlook the lawyer’s value-added role in getting the costs lowered.

  49. 59

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @28 And the day before that he sent the B.S. Meter into orbit with his silly nonsense about a liquor store clerk making $105,000/yr.

    For those who missed that, the Liquor Control Board has two employees named Thomas D. Taylor. One is a liquor store clerk making $13.50/hr, and other is a warehouse operator making a little over $2800/mo. Neither of these guys makes $35,000/yr. But BIAW’s data compiler couldn’t handle two people with the same name, so BIAW combined them into a single entry in their look-up software and — voila! — Thomas D. Taylor, liquor store clerk, now makes $105,000/yr and Thomas D. Taylor, warehouse operator, is nowhere to be found in BIAW’s iteration of OFM’s database. Magical things happen on paper when your handling of other entities’ data is incompetent and/or fucked up, yes? Cynical stupidly fell for this rookie mistake, and so did Puddyearwax. It was the Two Stooges’ most dismal hour. (Three Stooges, if you count BIAW.)

  50. 60

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @35 “The valuation of fees in King County is based on project value. They assume a given construction cost per square foot for heated space, unheated space, driveways etc, and assess fees in accordance with that valation. Hence a fairly long driveway to get to that high permit number.”

    If we stick to the principle that BALD fees should pay for the services provided, there are different ways to divvy up which users pay how much for what. The system you describe has obvious advantages (simplicity) and disadvantages (weak correlation to actual costs). Perhaps it works most of the time and this case was an aberration. Or maybe there’s a better fee structure waiting for someone to suggest it. That would have to come from people like you who are familiar with how the whole thing works.

  51. 61

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @36 I don’t recall getting involved with the whole “flying monkeys” thing. In fact, I was only vaguely aware of it, because I don’t even read most of your posts. I have more important things to do.

  52. 62

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I do get the feeling that Puddyearwax automatically pastes “Bunny” in all his posts without reference to subject matter. I’m flattered.

  53. 63

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @38 “Are we in danger of having a reasonable discussion here??????”

    Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. If you can get people like “Lost” off cruise control it might be possible to actually get some useful input from them. The trick is figuring out where the manual override for the gas pedal is.

  54. 64

    MikeBoyScout spews:

    The time has come for Ramsey to receive one ear ringing invisible hand slap upside his glibertarian head.

  55. 65

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Could this all come about because of the moronic 2004 Critical Area Ordinance being overturned July 2008 by the State Court of Appeals? You know the one where the city Dummocrapts voted Yep and the rural Republicans voted Nope you Dopes.

    Remember what Ron Max Tax Sims said after he went back to the County Lawyers – “We will work with our attorneys to carefully review the decision and determine our next steps. One possible unintended consequence to this decision is that some property owners may face higher restrictions than those currently in place.” For the stupid leftists this is from the bottom of the article.

    Well ain’t that just peachy. The Court rejects this punitive law and the first thing that comes to Max Tax Sim’s small mind is how can his county administration screw the people more? Typical Dummocrapt. So you have $22,000 review fees being imposed. That’s screwing the peeps Ron. No wonder you were glad to get outta dodge. HAHAHAHA You get who you vote for HA Libtardos. Enjoy…

    Now to the Dumb Bunny, You’re a waste of pixels everywhere Herr Goebbels Himmler. Once again you tell lie after lie after lie after lie and you pollute every thread that way. Puddy said where’s da proof I agreed with Cynical on his BIAW comment and you haven’t provided it yet in three days. Just like you haven’t provided where you got the percentage of racist people in America who disagree with Odumba. You haven’t produced that in two days. And it’s been two months since you claimed an article was in National Review and you haven’t provided the link.

    And you wonder why Puddy calls you T H E Dumb Bunny!

  56. 66

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Well Puddy could just call you Dumb, Dumb Bunny. That works just fine with Puddy.

  57. 67

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    @36 I don’t recall getting involved with the whole “flying monkeys” thing. In fact, I was only vaguely aware of it, because I don’t even read most of your posts. I have more important things to do.

    It wasn’t Puddy getting in on the action Dumb Bunny. It was Cynical vs. Steve, Proud Goatist, ProudASS and a host of other moronic libtardos like yourself Dumb Bunny. BTW, why did you comment on Puddy’s posts here Dumb Bunny? Must be your senility has nothing important to do after all!

    What a DUMMY!

  58. 68

    dave spews:

    @65 And it’s been two months since you claimed an article was in National Review and you haven’t provided the link

    And with good reason! Recall, Bunny had claimed a NR article he had linked to AND READ CAREFULLY had been authored by the well-know Medicare cost expert, Malcolm Sparrow. When it was pointed out that Sparrow was referenced in the article but didn’t author it, Bunny claimed he was referring to another NR article authored by Sparrow. The only problem with that little story is Sparrow never wrote an article for NR.

    Of course Dumb Bunny didn’t provide the link – it doesn’t exist! For all Rabbit’s highfalutin babble about the misdeeds of others, he can sure commit some of his own! And this Bunny USE TO BE a judge!

  59. 69

    spews:

    Somebody once told me that their friend told them that they once heard of some guy out in eastern King County who had a farm, and all he wanted to do was build a barn on his property, and he and some friends were going to do all the work themselves, and that the supplies and materials added up to $9,700, but the fees for permits and such from the county added up to over $113,000.

    True story.

  60. 70

    Steve spews:

    @61 “I don’t recall getting involved with the whole “flying monkeys” thing.”

    You had nothing to do with it. Blame the stupid KLOWN. Klynical got confused one night(I know, big surprise) and started accusing you of having called Puddy a flying monkey and then started calling you a racist for it. I explained to him that he had you mixed up with someone else but he’s batshit insane and just won’t listen to reason.

    He calls you a racist and yet he thought this was a great joke to share,

    5. Mr. Cynical spews:
    Barack Obama got out of the shower and was drying off
    when he looked in the mirror and noticed he was white from the neck up to
    the top of his head.
    In sheer panic and fearing he was turning white and might have to start
    working for a living
    , he called his doctor and told him of his problem.
    The doctor advised him to come to his office immediately. After an
    examination, the doctor mixed a concoction of brown liquid, gave it to
    Barack, and told him to drink it all.
    Barack drank the concoction and replied, ‘That tasted like bullshit!’
    The doctor replied, ‘It was, you were a quart low.’
    07/08/2009 at 9:11 pm

    Now, one joke does not a racist make, but it does leave Mr. Klynical in a position where, once again, we can only laugh at him for being so utterly stupid and hypocritical.

  61. 71

    k spews:

    It may, perhaps, be a true story that someone once told troll that BS. The numbers are pure fabrication in classic troll fashon. “someone once told me…” or “some say…” or other vague constructions.

  62. 72

    proud leftist spews:

    71
    Please be gentle with Troll. He is very sensitive, prone to pouting and crying spells, in fact. He’s harmless enough in his pointless sort of way.

  63. 73

    rhp6033 spews:

    A buddy of a cousin of a friend of mine once said that he was abducted by aliens.

    True Story (at least, according to the buddy of a cousin of a friend of mine).

  64. 74

    Steve spews:

    Anyone can go to, say, county websites and look at permits and fees. For Mason County you can look up the permit history for any address or parcel number. I was just looking at a current permit application where the building permit for a $240,000 home was a little over $1,200. The septic permit was under $400. So much for Mason County ripping people off for permit fees.

  65. 75

    Doc Daneeka spews:

    But while Ramsey is happy to lay out the $22,000 driveway permit as an example of government regulation run amuck, judging from his oeuvre I’m guessing he’d be unwilling to consider raising taxes on the rest of us — including himself — to help make such innovative development more affordable.

    Probably not. But like many of us who have faced this with King County DES, he might like to understand better how it is that the County’s costs result in permitting estimates that work out to rates of $140 per hour after appeal. And while perhaps some cost shifting is more socially efficient, in the case of DES, maybe some cost reductions are in order.

    These are not commercial lawyers here. This is plan and permit review. And while admittedly grading and developing a commercial road through 89 acres is no “driveway”, neither is it a nuclear reactor. A $140 per hour rate, even for expert plan review, seems fairly steep and implies little or no economy of scale. But isn’t that precisely the argument in favor of centralized public services like this? That it ought to be more efficient in scale when compared to distributed private services?

    Maybe it is time for King County DES to perform some useful self-examination to determine if the agency is making the best use of resources to maximize services relative to costs. And maybe it is also time for a comprehensive review of County land-use regulations in consultation with DES to identify ways of achieving stated goals at lower agency cost. Any public agency billing rates of $140 per hour after an appeal is begging for private competition. And if they don’t turn themselves around they’re going to get it sooner or later.

  66. 76

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @45 As a judge, my job was to apply reasoned judgement to enforcement of the law, and here’s how I would approach that problem. If an inspector sees a safety violation, he should inform the site supervisor. The important thing is to correct the problem so workers don’t get hurt. Only if the contractor refuses to comply, or continues to commit violations, should sanctions be imposed.

  67. 77

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I need to point out, however, that judges don’t have as much discretion as cops or prosecutors; and a judge who has a regulatory sanction come before him may lack authority to not impose the fine or sanction, depending on the wording of the statute or regulation.

  68. 78

    k spews:

    A problem DDES (the proper abbrev. for the agency) has is that is is providing local services- permits- as a regional government. Annexation and incorporation are taking the denser development and the current economic downturn has further reduced number of permits issued. And yes, there have been layoffs in the agency. But is is having difficulty sustaining itself. And yes again, there is consideration of re-org.

  69. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @65 “Puddy said where’s da proof I agreed with Cynical on his BIAW comment and you haven’t provided it yet in three days.”

    Bullshit. I posted it at least twice to make sure you could find it, and called your attention to it, including a direct link to the original source data on the OFM website. It’s time to call you out as LIAR, Puddyearwax. There is no state liquor store clerk making $105,000/yr. BIAW counted two employees with the same name as one person. BIAW also double-counted leave pay. Those are facts. You’re full of shit.

  70. 80

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @66 I’m flattered by the attention, Numbnuts. I’m glad that I’m getting to you. Good! You’re a LIAR and I want everyone here to know it.

  71. 81

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @67 You said @36 I was in that action. Now you’re saying I wasn’t. Which is it, Numbnuts? Having trouble making up your mind? If so, that may have something to do with the size of your mind.

  72. 82

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The most frustrating part of dealing with these trolls is they’re so stupid they don’t even know when they’re getting their asses kicked.

  73. 83

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @68 You two asswipes conveniently overlook two things. One, I provided the direct link to Sparrow’s comments in my original post, and two, I quoted Sparrow. Who wrote the article is immaterial; but then, deflecting to irrelevancies when you get your ass kicked in an argument is SOP for you guys.

  74. 84

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @69 I heard that same story from a rabbit who heard it from a chicken who heard it from a cow who heard it from a fox, except the barn cost $80,000 and the permit cost $80.

  75. 85

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @70 Of course I had nothing to do with it. That’s why I posted what Puddyearwax likes to call a BULLSHITTIUM ALERT above. I’m flattered that putz tells so many lies about me. I’m getting to him, and that’s my job here.

  76. 86

    Tom Fitzpatrick spews:

    best thread (and first actual “conversation”!) I’ve seen on HA. I’m a retired KC planner/DDES bureaucrat; I thought many of the comments from both the developer and King Co/public interest viewpoints were great.

    In my experience King Co did not see DDES as a profit center, though the hourly rate would make you think so. KC Budget drones started charging agencies “rent” for their office space decades ago, even when we were mostly in the bought-and-paid-for courthouse. So someone’s idea of “overhead” is also in whatever number they use.

    Even tho’ DDES isn’t supposed to be a profit center, as a self-funding regulator there is a real conflict of interest between who’s paying the bills and the public at large, which is the source of the agency’s authority and every bit as much a “customer” as a permit applicant. I would like to see a fee structure that tilts toward more public support of the regulating function, with maybe some additional subsidy for ag-related development, maybe remodeling of existing residences by the owner, etc.

  77. 87

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @75 Oh c’mon. I’ve met contractors whose only overhead is an answering machine and an old van worth $1,500 who charge close to $100 an hour. Sure, commercial lawyers charge more than $140/hr, but they make more money than those plan review people do. After all, the latter are public servants, and you won’t find many (if any) people of comparable skills and talent in the private sector making less than them. $140/hr is not out of line when you consider it includes overhead.

  78. 88

    rhp6033 spews:

    RR @ 87: The last lawyer I dealt (three years ago) with was charging $300.00 per hour, which was a considerable increase over the $120.00 an hour he was charging 20 years ago. But he always delivered value for the money.

  79. 89

    Doc Daneeka spews:

    LIASOB pointed out that this “gentleman farmer” should have anticipated permitting costs before deciding to turn his farm into a commerical enterprise.

    Do you really mean to imply that a farm is not otherwise a commercial enterprise?

    If we hope to preserve real farmland in King County we ought to begin by disposing of the idea of farms being only giant corporate behemoths or quaint family hobbies. Real farms require real farmers. And if you want real farmers then you have to consider that they need to make a real living from farming. To make a real living farming in King County right now requires the kind of creativity and enterprise that Steve Capeder is demonstrating here.

  80. 91

    rhp6033 spews:

    “KC Budget drones started charging agencies “rent” for their office space decades ago, even when we were mostly in the bought-and-paid-for courthouse. So someone’s idea of “overhead” is also in whatever number they use.”

    I ran into this at a company I worked for once. One year the Seattle branch posted a reasonable profit, but the head office in L.A. posted a loss.

    We were pretty pleased with ourselves, until the final financial reports came out showing us posting a loss, with the L.A. office posting a profit.

    The final accounting allocated our branch (with 5 employees) 35% of the corporate overhead (executive salaries, human resources, I.T. dept., accounting dept., etc.), whereas the N.Y. office had 20% with ten employees, and the L.A. office had only 45% of the overhead (with about 85 employees).

    Shortly afterwards, I was on a business trip to the head office, where a number of people kept asking me “how come you guys keep losing money in the Seattle office?”, and there were obvious plans afoot to transfer much of our profitable work to L.A., keeping the unprofitable work here.

    I learned then that you can make numbers pretty much look like whatever you want to make them look like, as long as nobody is allowed to question the details.

  81. 92

    Doc Daneeka spews:

    $140/hr is not out of line when you consider it includes overhead.

    Your opinion is noted. But somehow I doubt you’ll find very many to share it with you.

    The whole point of a single large public agency is to amortize the OH over a larger productive workforce. And again, we’re talking about a specialized, white collar enterprise. There are no warehouses, no heavy equipment, no manufacturing machinery, no huge “tracts of land”. Phones, computers, desks, chairs, files, office space, accounting and payroll. All things that lend themselves to efficient scaling under normal circumstances.

  82. 93

    rhp6033 spews:

    @ 89: The problem with farming in King County isn’t the government, environmental regulations, or permit fees. The problem is that the land is generally more valuable used for other purposes.

    Farming in King County doesn’t have the economy of scale it does elsewhere, and crop/produce prices remain low on a national scale. In contrast, developing the land for other purposes tends to bring in more money.

    The Kent/Auburn Valley used to be fertile farmland, but is now used mostly for warehouse and light industrial space (the southern end still has some pasture and hay fields).

    Perhaps we should subsidize farmers if we decide we want to keep them here. Are lower permit fees the best way to do that? Is subsidizing farming operations in one county a losing proposition in the long run, as it becomes increasingly difficult to compete with the larger economic forces at work by subsidizing an less-profitable activity over an extended period of time?

  83. 94

    dave spews:

    @83 Who wrote the article is immaterial; but then, deflecting to irrelevancies when you get your ass kicked in an argument is SOP for you guys

    Excuse me? Right here:

    http://horsesass.org/?p=23925 @26

    it was pointed out that you wrote:

    Coburn got his figures from a National Review article written by a guy named Malcolm Sparrow. If you read the article carefully, as I did . . .

    referring to this article:

    http://article.nationalreview......BiZDRkNDQ=

    Your response @29

    @26 Same rag but different article

    When you were asked to produce the “different” article, the one authored by Sparrow, you clammed up. There is no such article . . . unless you’d like to produce the article you say you were referring to . . .

  84. 96

    lostinaseaofblue spews:

    Re 95

    Strawberry rhubarb pie with freshly whipped cream was my Grandmothers favorite recipe. Still makes my mouth water.

  85. 98

    Colonel Cathcart spews:

    re 89: Good comment, Doc. That one is a definite feather in your cap!

    Keep a tight bomb pattern!

    Over and out!

  86. 99

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    I posted it at least twice to make sure you could find it, and called your attention to it, including a direct link to the original source data on the OFM website.

    No Dumb Bunny. Try again! Ask the arschloch! Puddy NEVER wrote anything about BIAW. Find it and prove it.

    See ya!

    Right now his light is on!

  87. 100

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Golly Steve, Puddy thought you had it together… The Dumb Bunny did call Puddy a flying monkey. It was so easy to find because hey, there is only one Dumb Bunny!

    20. Puddybud Likes Flying Dutchmen spews:

    21. Puddybud Likes Flying Dutchmen spews:

    30. Roger Rabbit spews: Flying Monkey @20

    31. Roger Rabbit spews: Flying Monkey @21:

    Then here is the latest BULLSHITTIUM from the Dumb Bunny

    @70 Of course I had nothing to do with it. That’s why I posted what Puddyearwax likes to call a BULLSHITTIUM ALERT above. I’m flattered that putz tells so many lies about me. I’m getting to him, and that’s my job here.

    HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DUMB BUNNY IS LYING? HIS FINGERS ARE ON HIS KEYBOARD LATE AT NIGHT POSTING ON HA LIBTARDOS!

    Another in the long line of Dumb Bunny comments this senile fool forgets as soon as he farts which is very often!

  88. 101

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Dave@94,

    The Dumb Bunny has been caught twice in the same thread.

    P R I C E L E S S!

    What’s so sad is how many HA Libtardos follow this pied piper of useless lies and takes it as “gospel”.

    What say you now Steve?

  89. 102

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @89 “Do you really mean to imply that a farm is not otherwise a commercial enterprise?”

    The term “commercial enterprise” is being used in this thread to describe a business that consists of more than a farm and also includes a retail store and a bed and breakfast. The paving needs of this type of “commercial enterprise” are different that those of a farm. The permitting, and cost of permitting, for a paved road onto this property is the issue of this thread.

  90. 103

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @98 The only thing Doc Daneeka said is that a traditional farm can’t make it in King County anymore. When a farm ceases to be a farm and becomes a combination of farm, manufacturing facility, retail store, and hotel, yes, the permitting requirements will be more complex.

  91. 105

    proud leftist spews:

    Puddy @ 100
    Even by your standards, where the bar is at the floor, that is pathetic. Look at what you were calling yourself. Rabbit simply responded to what you were calling yourself. You lost, Puddy, big time. You really need to go curl up in a corner and lick your wounds.

  92. 106

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @100 You’re right, puddy, I completely forgot that I responded to what you were calling yourself. Do you expect me to remember what I did two months ago?

  93. 107

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Puddy’s comments on that occasion were exceptionally forgettable, so it’s not surprising that I don’t remember responding to them.

  94. 108

    proud leftist spews:

    107
    On that occasion? His comments are always exceptionally forgettable. Actually, if you don’t read them in the first place, they are not even forgettable. Puddy’s comments are like dog shit on a trail–just step over the pile and move forward.

  95. 110

    Max Rockatansky spews:

    lol…the rabbit nazi has turned into a joke…he is almost as laughable as racist ylb.

    maybe he can tell us why he no longer practices law..

    …just sayin’…

  96. 111

    DavidD spews:

    @69;

    Someone once told me that a friend of theirs knew a person that had a cousin that Bill Gates gave some money to after tracking their emails with the Disney company. True story.

  97. 112

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    @99 Fuck you, you lying sack of shit, I’m tired of this.

    THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL claimed Puddy jumped on and used the BIAW salary information like Cynical did on HA Libtardos. Puddy said prove it. Puddy still waiting like Dave is on THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL’s National Review comment. When Puddy makes an accusation against a LIBTARDO all you LIBTARDOS want Puddy to prove it. Now the shoe is on the other foot. THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL accused Puddy of Cynical’s BIAW comment. Yet, THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL provides no proof. Puddy even suggested to THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL to call upon ylb arschloch. ylb arschloch has his personal copy of the Goldy HA blog ylb arschloch updates daily. Yet THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL won’t ask ylb arschloch for help.

    Just another of your promenade of lies on HA LIBTARDOS. Well at least fricknfrack is a fan of THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL.

  98. 113

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Proud Goatist farts

    Puddy @ 100
    Even by your standards, where the bar is at the floor, that is pathetic. Look at what you were calling yourself.

    Where on this blog has Puddy ever called himself a flying monkey? So Proud Goatist is calling a Dutch male citizen a flying monkey now. Do tell fool! The Flying Dutchman was the male Dutch filmmaker who jumped out of his seat and flew over other people in Delta Flight 253, landing on the EunuchBomber AbdulMuttalab last December. He was burned while stopping this terrorist attack. Of course Proud Goatist forgets these facts. This episode proves two “lawyers” on HA Libtardos have 24 hour Moronic Mindless Moonbat! Memory Disease.

    Go on Proud Goatist and grow some marbuls. Ask ylb arshcloch to search his per copy of HA Libtardos at home to post the URL or citation where Puddy called himself a flying monkey. He’ll never find it.

    Steve didn’t remember THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL calling Puddy a flying monkey. Steve accuses

    Klynical broke the HA Bullshit-o-Meter yesterday ranting about how “flying monkey” is a racial slur.

    Puddy provided the CBS Blog where many peeps including the blog administrator mentioned calling blacks a flying monkey is considered a racial slur. But don’t let facts get in the way of making an argument right Proud Goatist? My brother-in-law, a Florida lawyer said y’all argue with ambiguity on purpose. So saying the bar is low and telling others Puddy called himself that adds to the ambiguity. Sorry for your foolish ASS butt homey (Puddy) don’t play dat.

  99. 114

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    @100 You’re right, puddy, I completely forgot that I responded to what you were calling yourself. Do you expect me to remember what I did two months ago?

    Of course THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL now makes up new shit when Puddy caught THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL with his old shit.You can’t remember what you said two days prior THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL. You still have to prove Puddy agreed with Cynical on the BIAW salary study and that was less than three days old.

    Good try at weaseling out THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL!

  100. 115

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Puddy’s comments are like dog shit on a trail–just step over the pile and move forward.

    And this coming from a “lawyer” who named a Goat Sex Award after himself and bragged incessantly about it for months last year.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  101. 116

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Puddy–
    The Lying Racist Pig (not a rabbit) is trying to deflect from the main issue and what the Union-owned Dummocrats and Union-owned Gregoire do not want to discuss–

    http://www.biaw.com/WAStateEmployeeWages.aspx

    Take a look at the TOTAL COMPENSATION of State Employees at the above site. Wages are only a part of the total compensation package. This site shows the true picture.
    It adds 30% for Benefits (which comes straight from the State Human Resources website). It also puts a value on the 44 days off State Employees can get (Vacation, Sick Leave, Personal Days, Holidays). Do you realize they only work 82% of the weekdays. Unbelievable!

    We owe it to nearly 30 years of Democrat Rule in the Governor’s mansion. Gregoire gets millions in campaign contributions and countless ground troops…then negotiates with the Unions who got her elected.
    This is the result.

    I showed how reducing Salaries by 10% and Benefits/Paid Time-off by 20% will cut $1.25BILLION off the Deficit. A few thousand layoffs and eliminating the bloated Dept of Ecology which has 663 Employees with TOTAL COMPENSATION over $99,000.00…and we are just about there with a balanced budget.

    They will continue to deflect and create sideshows…but when Salaries and Benefits are 60% of the State Budget…and nothing substantive is done, it clearly shows the State Employee Unions own Washington State.
    Who is working for whom?

    Clearly, State Employees mean more to the Dummocrats than the citizen/taxpayers they were elected to serve.

    Hey, why shouldn’t we ALL work for the State and get State jobs?? That’s the answer!!
    Why should only certain people get State jobs while so many suffer?? Let’s open up State jobs to compentition. I guarantee you there are plenty of folks out there more qualified and more hard-working than many current State Employees.
    Put the sunshine and the State Employees and the Union Contracts.

  102. 117

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Only a Racist Pig Lawyer could justify morphing Flying Dutchman into Flying Monkey as nothing racist.
    Yeah, right.

    Oh and Rog…seems like your memory or loss thereof is mighty convenient these days.
    Like Obam-Mao, being held accountable sucks, doesn’t it?
    Blame it on your oxygen tank…or childhood.
    Pig.

  103. 118

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Here is an excellent non-partisan view of the Primary Election cycle which has already started–

    http://www.rasmussenreports.co....._sentiment

    BTW, yet another Dummocrat coward De la Hunt says he won’t run for re-election.

    March 4, 2010 | 8:26 PM ET
    Rep. Delahunt (D-MA) to Retire
    Chad Pergram

    Fox confirms Rep. Bill Delahunt (D-MA) to retire, through senior Hill Sources.
    Delahunt represents southern Masschusetts, Cape Cod, Nantucket and Martha’s Vineyard. Under normal circumstances, pre-Scott Brown, this seat would be a gimme for the D’s. Delahunt took over the seat from a Republican, the last GOPer to represent Massachusetts in Congress prior to Brown, in 1997.

    More & more are dodging the accountability from their constituents….although this douchebag failed to prosecute Amy Bishop for klilling her brother (lots of folks digging into that!!) allowing her to become a mass murderer.

  104. 119

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    From the AP–

    WASHINGTON — President Barack Obama summoned more than a dozen Democrats from the House of Representatives to the White House, pleading with them to put aside their qualms and vote for his massive health care overhaul.

    In back-to-back meetings Thursday, Obama urged uneasy rank-and-file moderates and progressives to focus on the positives rather than their deep disappointment with parts of the bill. The lawmakers said Obama assured them the legislation was merely the first step, and he promised to work with them in the future to improve its provisions.

    Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-Har-!!!!!
    Obam-Mao is telling the Health Care opponents to TRUST HIM!! Yeah, like idiot Bush Sr. trusted dummocrats after he reneged on his “Read my Lips” Quote.

    Why would anyone trust Obam-Mao?
    What has he done to EARN anyone’s trust???
    Americans do not TRUST Obam-Mao…and neither should their Representatives.

  105. 120

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Cynical,

    If Puddy was Dutch, Puddy would be upset two “lawyers” are calling my dutch heritage monkey! They called the person who stopped the EunuchBomber a monkey and he was Dutch.

    Another in the long line of progressive name calling. Will it ever stop? Doubt it.

  106. 121

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Cynical,

    From the WaPo.

    President Obama’s advisers are nearing a recommendation that Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the self-proclaimed mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, be prosecuted in a military tribunal, administration officials said, a step that would reverse Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr.’s plan to try him in civilian court in New York City.

    The president’s advisers feel increasingly hemmed in by bipartisan opposition to a federal trial in New York and demands, mainly from Republicans, that Mohammed and his accused co-conspirators remain under military jurisdiction, officials said. While Obama has favored trying some terrorism suspects in civilian courts as a symbol of U.S. commitment to the rule of law, critics have said military tribunals are the appropriate venue for those accused of attacking the United States.

    Can you say Eric Holder did an oops…?

  107. 122

    Steve spews:

    @109 Not much. The county ended up laying off about half of their permit staff this past year.

  108. 123

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Puddy @ 121–
    Predictable.
    Holder is a KLOWN.
    He needs to resign…now.
    How much taxpayer money was wasted on his Brainfart??

  109. 124

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Golly these fools are everywhere… Conflating building codes in a country ruled by “dictators” to another in a democratic society. What a moron.

    “Creators Syndicate – If the earthquakes in Chile and Haiti carry any message for those of us fortunate enough not to live in those places, perhaps it is that government regulation could save your life — while right-wing ideology may kill you someday.”

    Good try Joe. As Puddy said earlier safety is every man’s concern irrespective to politics. Butt, if you are a progressive, you need something to argue upon since your progressive ideas are being rejected by unaffiliated and independent voters left and right!

  110. 125

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Cynical,

    There is something mentally wrong with THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL. When the peeps were discussing Amy Bishop killing her peers at the University of Alabama Huntsville, THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL said it was similar to voting for Republicans (please ask Puddy for the proof THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL). Later he claimed we who think right made scanty allusions to Bishop’s progressive politics (please ask Puddy for the proof THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL).

    This senile old buzzard is a fool! Butt fricknfrack loves his “daily commentaries”.

  111. 128

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @116 The facts, pointy-headed Klown, are:

    a) there is no liquor store clerk making $105,000/yr — BIAW combined the incomes of two employees with the same name;

    b) BIAW’s “putting a value on” days off is bullshit because that double-counts leave days;

    c) over the years, state workers were given days off instead of COLAs, and would rather have the pay adjustments that people in the private sector got, to cope with inflation; and

    d) they still had to do the same amount of work, and I knew plenty of people who worked on their “days off” to keep up with the workload.

    If state employment was such a fucking good deal, how come you didn’t apply for one of those jobs? Or maybe you did, but couldn’t make the cut?

  112. 129

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @112 No, puddlekins, I’m not going to waste my time searching through the hundreds of comments posted in the last few days. You endorsed Cynical’s ridiculous assertion that a liquor store clerk made $105,000/yr — that’s why I went after you on the issue. But there’s an easy way to resolve this. All you have to do is repudiate that bullshit. It’s very simple. If you post that you do not support Cynical’s statements in that regard, I’ll leave you alone on that issue. Well?

  113. 130

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @120 For my part, I hereby retract my unfortunate previous references to you as a “monkey.” It was never my intention to insult monkeys. That was inadvertent.

  114. 131

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Gunman Slain At Pentagon; Two Cops Wounded

    Violent acts by anti-government nuts continue to pile up as an armed man who left behind anti-government messages opened fire without warning at a Pentagon entrance last night. The man was killed in a shootout that left two police officers wounded.

    “The shooting resembled one in January in which a gunman walked up to the security entrance of a Las Vegas courthouse and opened fire with a shotgun, killing one officer and wounding another before being gunned down in a barrage of return fire.”

    http://www.aolnews.com/crime/a.....s/19384626

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: The violent rhetoric of anti-government extremists isn’t just talk; it’s inciting violent acts that are taking lives.

  115. 132

    spews:

    I’m sending this post to Dave Ross. I wonder if Mr. Ross, who had this guest on his show, will appreciate being accused of picking apart government?

  116. 133

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @118 And here we have the idiot klown using the words “nonpartisan” and “Rasmussen” in the same sentence!

    HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

  117. 134

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @120 “Another in the long line of progressive name calling. Will it ever stop?”

    Since righties started the name-calling, your side has to stop first. Don’t expect us to unilaterally disarm.

  118. 135

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @123 “Holder … needs to resign…now.”

    Go fuck yourself. Elections have consequences. You lost.

  119. 136

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @125 Bishop is a nutcase, just like the rightwing whackjob who flew a plane into the IRS building last month and the psycho who shot two cops at the Pentagon last night.

  120. 137

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @126 Are you stupid enough to believe that banks won’t extract every penny they can get from consumers regardless of what Obama does?

    Would you rather make the taxpayers pay that $90 billion instead of the banks?

    This is so typical of you guys. You’ve never met a taxpayer dollar you didn’t want to give to some rich person.

  121. 138

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @127 Why are you using racist language like “whitey” here? This is a respectable middle-class blog.

  122. 139

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    In other news, Rove’s new book inadvertently discloses that Rove was indeed a leaker in the Valeria Plame case, that Rove lied when he denied it, that Bush knew it and did nothing about it, and that Rove narrowly escaped criminal prosecution for violating national security laws that prohibit disclosing the names of covert CIA agents.

    Maybe he needs a better editor.

    http://www.politicsdaily.com/2.....?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|link4|http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicsdaily.com%2F2010%2F03%2F05%2Fkarl-rove-book-getting-away-with-lying%2F

  123. 140

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Again THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL is a chicken. Bwaaaaaak Bwaaaaaaaaaaak Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak

    @112 No, puddlekins, I’m not going to waste my time searching through the hundreds of comments posted in the last few days. You endorsed Cynical’s ridiculous assertion that a liquor store clerk made $105,000/yr — that’s why I went after you on the issue.

    To quote THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL – Fuck You! Puddy never endorsed Cynical’s BIAW comment. Again… PROVE IT. You can’t, you senile fool! You asserted it like you assert much garbage oops… Smelly Pellets on this board. Cry out for help from all your beloved but foolish followers here THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL! Someone will gladly cum to your “aid”.

    Since you are too lazy to prove your comment why not ask ylb arschloch to check his personal backup of Goldy’s HA blog? Instead you use some stupid excuse… ylb arschloch has his personal backup of Goldy’s HA blog waiting for your “beck and call”. You on the other hand are a moronic imbecile THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL.

    You’ve been spanked again.

  124. 141

    dave spews:

    @137 Are you stupid enough to believe that banks won’t extract every penny they can get from consumers regardless of what Obama does?

    Actually, Like the CBO I’m smart enough to see that these taxes in the end are taxes on consumers and they should be presented that way rather than as a blow for the consumer by the administration against greedy banks – a narrative which is patently dishonest and which you bought hook, line, and sinker.

    And speaking of dishonesty, you STILL have not come up with that “different” NR article @94.

  125. 142

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    @120 For my part, I hereby retract my unfortunate previous references to you as a “monkey.”

    But THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL above claimed you never said it.

    Of course I had nothing to do with it.

    Puddy thinks this quote of yours is appropriate now…

    Fuck you, you lying sack of shit, I’m tired of this.

    Yep you are a continual lying sack of shit, every day in every way in every thread on HA Libtardos. But fricknfrack still loves you THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL!

    Your shitty pellets don’t pass for facts anymore THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL. You are entering the dumb brick zone as correctnotright did with his Clinton balanced budget screams earlier this week. With the number of HA Libtardos entering the dumb brick zone, we could start building the base to Goldy’s progressive monument.

  126. 143

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    The Dummocrats are trying to go swimming in a Tsunami!

    Friday, March 05, 2010

    The Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows that 27% of the nation’s voters Strongly Approve of the way that Barack Obama is performing his role as President. Forty-one percent (41%) Strongly Disapprove giving Obama a Presidential Approval Index rating of -14.

    Sixty-nine percent (69%) say that cities don’t have the right to ban handguns. Twenty-three percent (23%) favor a government with more services and higher taxes. Sixty-six percent (66%) would rather see fewer services and lower taxes. Fifty-eight percent (58%) support the proposal for the Postal Service to end Saturday delivery. Overall, 46% of voters say they at least somewhat approve of the President’s performance.

    Every Progressive issue…from Big Government to Health Care to Gun Control is directly the opposite to a huge % of American Voters. You KLOWNS must like getting pummelled!
    Gosh..look at the polls.

  127. 145

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Wow THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL@139. Still on the Rove kick after Armitage said he was the original leaker and the article says Armitage was the leaker to Time.

    “(Novak’s other source was Richard Armitage, the deputy secretary of state.)” But you see this progressive lying libtard is not telling the truth. Rove confirmed it a month later.

    So what’s the relevance to 2010 and Odumba’s latest actions? There is none. Puddy notices you are running out of current material so you resurrect old shit.

    Toooooooooooooooooooooo

    Damnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

    Funnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnny

  128. 146

    spews:

    why not ask ylb

    LMAO!! Not taking requests at this time fiend. Whether they’re from my side or not.

    Keep being feckless fool..

    If you have proof against anyone for anything YOU SHOW IT.. Asswipe.. I don’t participate in your stupid parlor games.

  129. 147

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    Notice the light switch is still on with ylb arschloch and his old feckless link in his name @144? Pavlov called it in the other thread and he turned it back on right on cue. Lead by the leash.

    Good doggie.

    Not taking requests? Why don’t you help out THE senile DUMB BUNNY FOOL by searching your personal copy of Goldy’s HA Libtardo blog? Demonstrate that progressive compassion. THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL needs your ylb arschloch ASSistance since THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL is too tired to search. Come on and be a good arschloch for a change. Offer your “services” to him ylb arschloch!

    If you have proof against anyone for anything YOU SHOW IT..

    Here is Puddy’s answer using THE DUMB BUNNY FOOL’s own words…

    Fuck you.

    Puddy don’t have to prove anything ylb arschloch. Well Puddy does prove every time you post you prove how much of a moron you are!

  130. 149

    Puddybud is Sad my friend died spews:

    The light switch is still on Puddy sees. More to come… Well at least you are not hiding your personal copy of HA Libtardo blog at your home. Have you copied today’s comments yet? Are you letting Goldy know if he can access it at any time?

    Bring it fool. You think Puddy cares about the dumb brick of HA? You are played like a dog on a leash. You turn on the link and turn off the link at Puddy’s whim fool. Puddy calls it every time you go back to the links.

    You are a lone island with your monomaniacal chronologically deficient feckless commentary.

  131. 151

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Puddy–@150
    Dang these Progressives are sick bastards.
    Good correlation with ylb.
    His slave-wife calls him L’il Smokie for an obvious reason.

  132. 152

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    More intercepted e-mails from Progressive Fact-deprived pretend scientists–

    Watchout, they are really mad now!

    Undaunted by a rash of scandals over the science underpinning climate change, top climate researchers are plotting to respond with what one scientist involved said needs to be “an outlandishly aggressively partisan approach” to gut the credibility of skeptics.

    In private e-mails obtained by The Washington Times, climate scientists at the National Academy of Sciences say they are tired

    They want to GUT the credibility of skeptics.
    Sounds kind of……violent…for a supposed objective scientist, doesn’t it??

    Well, now we now what is coming.
    Attack the questioners and those who embarrassed them with the facts.

  133. 153

    Quincy spews:

    Goldy wrote: Nobody likes to pay taxes, not even tax-and-spend liberals like me.

    Why is it compulsory to say this when talking about taxes? I never read a restaruant review that says “nobody likes to pay their check.” I never read a movie review that says “nobody likes to pay for a ticket.” Has any story in the travel section ever included the phrase “nobody likes to pay for airline tickets.” You would think I would have read a news story about the ferry system or Metro saying “nobody likes to pay their fare.” But have I? Have you? No, we have not.

    Stop saying this!