HorsesAss.Org

Open Thread 7/30

by — ,

– Tents are a half assed solution to our homeless problem. But the people who opposed Nickelsville legislation don’t even want that.

– Kirby Wilbur is going to DC to chair the Young America’s Foundation so he won’t be the state GOP chair anymore.

– My sincere best wishes for Rep. Jaime Herrera Beutler’s family.

– Obamacare? More like Obamaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacare!

– At comparable points in their presidencies, for every day Obama has taken off, Bush had already taken 4.5 days off. Obama could stay on vacation for the rest of 2013 and still not be within striking distance of Bush’s hyper-lazy pace

Comments

  1. 1

    Its not about the number of days. We’re outraged that all the salaried secret service personnel aren’t standing idle. It would be far far better to have them in a D.C. office drawing pay than in the field.

    The flight on air force one to Boston is a waste. Crawford was closer. The pilots should be also drawing his military pay to stand down.

    It’s clearly outrageous that a taxpayer should not fund a vacation that federal law says the first family pays for. How can that uppity family afford a week in Martha’s Vineyard? Real Americans have an estate in Kennebunkport.

    Harrumph!

  3. 3

    Here’s Digby:

    The dead, determined eyes of the cult member are far more terrifying that the greedy gleam of the malicious huckster. You can bargain with or intimidate the huckster. The cultist, not so much.

    She’s talking about charter school hucksters/zombies, but it could be anything with these people. Just like the puddybigot, when dealing with these types, the inevitable, exasperated question comes down to, “Stupid, or lying?”

    Every. Damn. Time.

  4. 4

    @4

    If you are outraged about one school’s scores being falsely adjusted, how must you feel about this?:

    Former Atlanta schools superintendent reports to jail in cheating scandal

    A Fulton County grand jury last week indicted 35 educators from the district, including principals, teachers and testing coordinators. They were ordered to turn themselves in by Tuesday, District Attorney Paul Howard said.
    By 10:00 p.m., 27 of 35 educators had turned themselves in at the Fulton County Jail to face charges including racketeering, theft by taking and making false statements about their roles in an alleged plot to falsify students’ standardized tests. Eight of them had been released on bond late Tuesday, the Fulton County Sheriff’s office said.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/.....ng-scandal

    Your point noted, Lib Sci. Although my post would give lie to yours that it is the right Every. Damn. Time., wouldn’t it?

  5. 5

    About Herrera-Butler’s child – so nice the little one survived.

    Thanks to the PI for this:

    As well, it was a demonstration of the very best that American medicine has to offer to those fortunate enough to receive it.

    Context is everything.

    Moreover, the primary problem causing a lack of amniotic fluid – oligohydramnios – is usually a very serious problem with the developing kidneys. Fortunately for her family, end-stage kidney disease is the one disorder for which we have a single-payer healthcare system. Written into the Medicare revision in the 1970s, care for end-stage renal disease and the dialysis needed to sustain life is covered by Medicare. For everybody.

  6. 6

    @4
    Yes, cheating is wrong. I’m truly surprised you acknowledge that, being a Republican and all, and after the behavior we’ve all seen by you on these threads over and over and over…

    I would consider, under the term “Lying,” your habit of countering a systematic criticism – like the ones often made here about Republican racism/plutocracy/privatization/obstructionism/climate insanity/intelligent design/public school decimation/etc, etc, etc – with the isolated specific like the one you post here.

    You are the master of the false equivalence, and yes, that is a form of dishonesty.

    As is so tiresomely consistent with you and your pals, “Stupid, or lying?”

    Every. Damn. Time.

  7. 7

    @4

    No one could have predicted that if you tie a teacher’s ability to earn more exclusively to test scores some would cheat.

    But test score enhancement the crown jewel in anti-union school reform plans.

    Add that to a long list of hyped and totally ineffectual programs promoted by the right.

  9. 9

    @6

    “Isolated specific”?

    Really? Grades changed to benefit minorities or some other group that might be considered disadvantaged is an isolated event?

    Please.

    Atlanta got caught. Bigtime.

    Whether for athletes or for minority advancement (see NC story last week:

    “Some students had their final grades changed based on their race,” Hedgepeth told Campus Reform on June 6. “That was a common complaint of many of the faculty that I worked with.”

    “None of the Caucasian or non-African American students… none of their grades were changed,” she added. “The way the grades fell out, there was no other reason for changing.”

    Documents provided to Campus Reform by one of the former faculty members appear to validate these claims. Campus Reform has chosen not to publish the records due to concerns that doing so may violate the Family Education Rights and Privacy Act by revealing the names and grades of students.

    http://www.campusreform.org/blog/?ID=4819

    ), it is not isolated. You and I both know that. You just decided to cherry-pick a charter school that had one subject ranking come out as average.

  10. 10

    My access to the Seattle Times website is going through problems. But the headline for an AP story is that a Tony Bennett, former Indianapolis and Florida school head, became a national GOP star by “promising to hold schools accountabe”. But when a school run by a prominent GOP donar recently received a failing grade, he simply re-ramped the grading system, turning it into an “A”.

  12. 12

    Thanks for the heads up, Serial “Won’t pay his debts” Conn, for bringing this scandal to our attention. It exposes the real problem of standardized testing tied to performance and pay. (Isn’t standardize testing something that was forced on schools by No Child left Behind, a bush program?) Seems that the whole school system was hacked so that, instead of teaching an education, they could meet a numbers quota, they would look good.

    She said teachers were under constant pressure from principals who feared they would be fired if they did not meet the testing targets set by the superintendent.

    Dr. Hall was known to rule by fear. She gave principals three years to meet their testing goals. Few did; in her decade as superintendent, she replaced 90 percent of the principals.

    Teachers and principals whose students had high test scores received tenure and thousands of dollars in performance bonuses. Otherwise, as one teacher explained, it was “low score out the door.”
    …
    It is not just an Atlanta problem. Cheating has grown at school districts around the country as standardized testing has become a primary means of evaluating teachers, principals and schools. In El Paso, a superintendent went to prison recently after removing low-performing children from classes to improve the district’s test scores. In Ohio, state officials are investigating whether several urban districts intentionally listed low-performing students as having withdrawn even though they were still in school.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03.....ewanted=2/

  13. 13

    I found this interesting

    What made Dr. Hall just about untouchable was her strong ties to local business leaders. Atlanta prides itself in being a progressive Southern city when it comes to education, entrepreneurship and race — and Dr. Hall’s rising test scores were good news on all those fronts. She is an African-American woman who had turned around a mainly poor African-American school district, which would make Atlanta an even more desirable destination for businesses.

    And so when Mr. Perdue challenged the test results that underpinned everything — even though he was a conservative Republican businessman — he met strong resistance from the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce.
    …
    “I was dumbfounded that the business community would not want the truth,” he said. “These would be the next generation of employees, and companies would be looking at them and wondering why they had graduated and could not do simple skills. Business was insisting on accountability, but they didn’t want real accountability.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03.....gewanted=3

    And that’s a republican talking bad about corporations.

  15. 15

    Is Atlanta an isolated case? The extent of the top-down malfeasance under Beverly Hall may be unprecedented, but as I report in this Slate piece, there is reason to believe that policies tying adult incentives to children’s test scores have resulted in a nationwide uptick in cheating. An investigation by the Atlanta Journal Constitution found 196 school districts across the country with suspicious test score gains similar to the ones demonstrated in Atlanta, which statisticians said had only a one in 1 billion likelihood of being legitimate. A 2011 study by USA Today of test scores from just six states found 1,610 instances in which gains were as likely to be authentic as you are likely to buy a winning Powerball ticket. Absent independent, local investigations of suspected wrongdoing—which are rarely conducted—we simply cannot know the full extent of the cheating, which makes it difficult to assess whether the United States ought to continue down the road of tying teacher and administrator pay and job security to kids’ standardized test scores.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_.....wered.html

    True, if the only measure is a standardized test, many teachers and districts are going to try to game the system to keep their jobs and their funding.

  16. 16

    Here’s a good reason for cheating….

    Atlanta Public Schools may have to return $967,022 of federal funds granted for falsely high test scores.
    …
    The station also reports that the state is looking into whether the federal money was used to pay bonuses to teachers who cheated on the exams.

    Hall received tens of thousands of dollars in bonuses, a portion of which relates to improved exam scores.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....98330.html

    I don’t understand why conservatives are upset. “Greed is Good” is their religion and and it looks like some the teachers decided to cash in. Maybe it’s only OK when Enron does it.

  17. 17

    @4 The difference is that public school employees are accountable to elected school boards, whereas charter schools are supported by taxpayers who have no say in how they are run, what is taught, or whether children learn.

  18. 18

    @ 12

    I know it is hard to accept the fact that as Bush becomes more a part of history and less someone you can blame current ills on, you may have to face reality here and there.

    You blame Bush for Atlanta.

    Problem with that is in your own NYT link:

    As long ago as 2001, Journal-Constitution reporters were writing articles questioning test scores under Dr. Hall, but when they requested interviews they were rebuffed.

    No Child Left Behind passed in 2001. Maybe Hall was cheating in advance of it because she KNEW Bush would pass it and she would need the better scores. Try that line.

    You might be right that the whole Atlanta school system was ‘hacked’. But it seems as if, at least to AJC reporters, the hacking preceded Bush.

    Which leaves you with one dishonest woman at the root of the problem there. Not where you want to be, is it?

  19. 19

    @9 Financial incentives do drive people’s behavior, don’t they? As long as you’re ranting about cheating, try this on for size:

    Bankers and ratings agencies systematically lying about the quality of mortgage-backed securities, resulting in massive (and I mean MASSIVE) profits for banks and gigantic compensation for crooked bankers, and zero punishment meted out for systemic fraud that nearly destroyed the global economy.

    Whoooooo was in favor of deregulating banks and letting bankers do whatever they wanted to?

    And you’re ranting to us about small-time cheating by a few school employees? No equivalence there whatsoever, bub.

  20. 20

    Which leaves you with one dishonest woman at the root of the problem there.
    Yup. And she was cheating because she financially gained if she and her underlings did. You refuse to address that the system rewards high test scores and she made sure they got high test scores by any means. When teaching was too hard, they cheated. She was greedy. And “Greed is Good” is a conservative mantra.

  21. 21

    @ 19

    No equivalence there whatsoever

    I agree that the two topics are wholly unrelated to each other.

    In other words, you’re off-topic, asswipe.

    And it was 35 people indicted, not a few. If you can dismiss based upon numbers of conspirators, Watergate was ‘a few’. Idiot.

  22. 22

    @12 I remember another cheating scandal from many years ago. This one involved a military promotion system based on reported body counts. The idea apparently was based on the (wrong-headed and completely wrong) assumption that the more enemy you kill, the closer to victory you are. (Ah, yes, the “smell of napalm in the morning.”) So what do you suppose happened? At best, career officers (their troops didn’t give a shit) simply doctored the reports with fake numbers; at worst, soldiers were encouraged to kill anyone who wasn’t American to run up body counts. The system was so abused that body counts became a national joke — absolutely no one believed the numbers the military was reporting, not even the military people reporting the numbers. (After all, they knew better than anyone that the numbers were fake.)

  23. 23

    LOL. If only there had been an organization that could have done something… Oh wait.

    Atlanta Could Have Averted Its Cheating Scandal If It Had Listened To Its Local Teachers Union
    Interestingly, one aspect of the scandal that has not been covered by the major media is the role of the local teacher unions. While Atlanta’s teacher unions are largely powerless when it comes to actual bargaining and strike powers — unlike many of their northern counterparts, they currently have no collective bargaining rights enshrined into law — one local chapter of the American Federation of Teachers (AFT) was the very first body to internally report cheating to the district superintendent, Dr. Beverly Hall.

    AFT President Randi Weingarten provided the following statement to ThinkProgress: “The governor’s investigation found that Atlanta Federation of Teachers was the first to expose cheating in December 2005, but the union’s complaint was ignored and sadly, subsequent whistle-blowers in the district were punished and silenced.
    http://thinkprogress.org/educa.....dal-union/

  24. 24

    @ 20

    “Greed is Good” is a conservative mantra.

    No, it’s a line in a movie script written by Oliver Stone.

    You really should try to distinguish reality from fantasy. Just once in a while.

  25. 25

    Serial “Won’t pay his debts” Conn swore first, so he loses social status points. Rabbit got under his skin with facts, data and logic. Name calling is the first sign of losing the argument.

  26. 26

    @18

    No Child Left Behind simply nationalized the failed school reform ideas of the Heritage Foundation. Local school boards were experimenting with tying teacher pay strictly to standardized test performance before No Child Left Behind.

    Bush Jr. took a policy that had failed everywhere it had been tried and decided that the only reason it wasn’t working is that it wasn’t being done everywhere.

    Modern Republicanism in a nutshell. Every observable piece of data says we’re wrong but we believe in our hearts this can work so we’re going to do it anyway.

  27. 27

    @25

    Name calling is the first sign of losing the argument.

    Gee, I thought it was spewing factually incorrect information.

    What are you, twelve years old today?

  28. 28

    Turns out that the engineer in the Spanish train disaster last week was on the phone when it happened. Although it appears work related.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23507348

    That sounds like the loophole in the FRA cell phone ban, which is very strict, and the only issue the Teamsters have, is it does not clarify how tough, because the railroads can go further.(They prefer uniform rules) Th head of the division of the Teamsters Rail Conference that represents engineers, the BLE-T, had a good piece of advice for his members.

    http://www.ble-t.org/pr/news/newsflash.asp?id=5108


    “The one sure fire way to stay out of trouble is to turn your phone off, store it in your grip, and don’t turn it on until your tour of duty is over,” BLET National President Dennis Pierce said.

  29. 29

    Wall Street. It may not be a true story, but it’s a story that tells truths.

    Unmitigated Greed is a defining attribute to the cult of conservatism; there is no level of rich that is obscene to rise above, there is no level of poor that is obscene to fall below.

    The teachers and admins were corrupted by the principle of greed so they did what ever it took to be rich, and some cheated, just to stay employed.

  30. 30

    Americans don’t know how to create effective incentive systems anymore. Most of our incentive systems reward people for holding a job title, and ignore what they do in the position. There is almost never any negative consequence for failure. This is especially true of the corporate world, where CEOs are rewarded with huge compensation packages even if they lose money for their shareholders, and if they run their companies completely into the ground they’re given gigantic “golden parachutes” as a consolation for getting fired for incompetence.

    Remember Reagan’s trickle-down theory? Well, here’s how it works in real life. When people in the top positions are corrupt and incompetent, these ways of doing business trickle down through organizations and social structures until the whole society becomes corrupt and incompetent.

    It doesn’t take a social scientist to realize that our society is rotting, and the rot started at the top. They can blame poor people, they can blame workers, they can blame students, all they want to for the piss-poor performance of our institutions. But when the whole system goes to hell in a handbasket the fault is always due to the people at the top.

    After the Vietnam debacle, blaming the dogface soldiers who tramped through jungles and slogged through rice paddies, and bled and died, was the popular meme for a while. But they did everything asked of them, and more; they didn’t lose the war. The war was lost by incompetent military and civilian leaders.

    Today, a popular meme among those whose own behavior is hardly above reproach is to blame our economic woes on poor people. The housing crisis, we are told, was caused by homebuyers who lied on loan forms. That’s nonsense. It was caused by a financial industry that recruited poor people to apply for “liar loans” because everyone in that industry, from mortgage brokers to Wall Street investment banks, got paid on the basis of loan production instead of loan quality.

    When the incentives are screwed up, you’ll get screwed-up results — every time.

  31. 31

    @24 “it’s a line in a movie script written by Oliver Stone” which captured the conservative mindset perfectly.

  32. 32

    Serial “Won’t pay his debts” Conn, you are getting your ass handed to you, when we looked into why they cheated.

    It’s just the consequence of one conservative program and conservative principle after another. you have done nothing to come up with a valid counter narrative.

  33. 33

    @ 29

    And yet there are all those rich people who are Democrats.

    That’s the problem with your ‘fake but accurate’ approach.

    For every rich guy who is a Republican there’s a rich guy who’s a Democrat.

    Bob Rubin was rich before he ran Treasury. Hank Paulson was rich before HE ran Treasury. And then there’s Corzine. And they can all be described as greedy. In 2008, Obama took huge amounts of money from Goldman Sachs.

    People doing dishonorable things is nothing new. Doing it for money is nothing new. Political affiliation has nothing to do with it.

    Stop being an idiot about your insistence that it’s all the conservatives’ faults.

  34. 34

    @21 I would venture that the number of conspirators behind the 2006 – 2008 financial debacle is in the tens, if not hundreds, of thousands. How many of them have been indicted? Two or three?

    You know, Carlos, I’m really surprised that dimwitted rightwingers haven’t jumped on Obama for this. It’s his greatest vulnerability. Obama’s 2008 campaign cost $900 million, Wall Street paid for almost all of it, and after being elected Obama filled his administration with Wall Street types who helped caused the crisis, spent hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars bailing out Wall Street firms, and his Justice Department hasn’t prosecuted any of the Wall Street crooks who brought the economy to its knee. This is so plainly a scandal that I’m incredulous that Republicans haven’t picked it up and run with it.

    Of course, there’s a very good reason for that: These are the Republicans’ friends and donors that Obama is protecting. So they really can’t say anything about it, can they?

    But I will. I’ll say something. I’m disgusted with Obama. He promised us “hope and change,” and all we got Bernanke, Geithner, and Summers. There’s still no regulation of the big banks, Wall Street is conducting business-as-usual, the rich are richer than ever before, and virtually none of the massive taxpayer bailout money has trickled down to Main Street or workers. Obama is a disgusting Wall Street lackey and bootlicker.

  36. 36

    @35 I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why greedy people have something against other people being greedy too.

  37. 37

    33. You are so funny. What progressive principles do you see caused the school system to cheat?
    Equality? Fairness? Accountablity? Justice? Equal Opportunity? Social Mobility? That change is necessary and change is good?

  38. 38

    Bradley Manning Guilty of Espionage, But Military Judge Finds Him Not Guilty of Aiding The Enemy

    “Bradley Manning, the Army intelligence analyst who laid bare America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan by covertly transmitting a massive trove of sensitive government documents to WikiLeaks, has been convicted on 19 of 21 charges, including 5 counts of espionage. He was found not guilty of aiding the enemy, the most serious and controversial charge laid against him. …

    “He does not face a life sentence, but combined together his charges could mean he spends the rest of his life in prison. Sentencing will occur Wednesday at 9:30 a.m.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....d%3D351302

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: I think the military judge will hand down a tough sentence, and that it will gradually get reduced by higher echelons.

  39. 39

    @ 35

    Idiot, how about:

    Financial gain or work-related promotion are temptations that can influence anyone, and political ideology has nothing to do with it.

    You guys are bending over backwards to explain felonious behavior by school employees as being coerced by policy set at the federal level.

    Felonious behavior shouldn’t be excused for any reason.

    By either side.

  40. 40

    Bradley Manning is acquitted of the most serious charge of “aiding the enemy”..

    But the book is thrown at him on “espionage” charges which is patently absurd. Who was he “spying” for? The New York Times who he contacted first before Wikileaks?

    The only people Manning “spied” on were Iraqi citizens who had the temerity to mildly criticize their corrupt government. These people were then taken from their families, jailed and abused.

    Manning just blew the whistle on that crap..

    Yes, the military NEEDED to make an example of Manning to put the scare into anyone that might be tempted to do the same.. It still sucks beyond belief..

    It’s a sad day to be an American.

  41. 41

    @39 “Felonious behavior shouldn’t be excused for any reason.”

    Why is it excused for some but not others?

    Billionaire bankers = excused
    $50,000-a-year teachers = not excused

    Does this pattern look familiar?

  42. 42

    William Calley, a mass murderer who was convicted of 22 unlawful killings but participated in many more, served 3 1/2 years of house arrest.

    How much time will Bradley Manning, who killed no one, serve? He’s already spent more time in military prisons than mass murderer William Calley ever did.

  43. 43

    @ 37

    You seemingly are alleging that No Child Left Behind caused the Atlanta grade changing scandal. Those poor administrators would not have done it had they not had the opportunity for advancement and bonuses though NCLB.

    Let’s analogize, shall we?

    Remember Silas Potter? Seattle Public Schools employee who took advantage of a program intended to steer money to minority vendors and raped the program to enrich himself and a crony.

    Do we, using your logic, blame that program for creating a temptation for an otherwise good and upstanding man to commit a crime?

    You really should try to admit that someone fraudulently changed scores to make school performance seem to be something it was not. That’s it. Whatever the motivation, it was criminal and immoral. Period.

    It’s not some poor woman being held down by The Man. It’s a woman, apparently with a history of dishonesty, being dishonest on a huge level and getting caught.

    Society has members who do not play by the rules. They inhabit both sides of the spectrum.

    Admit it.

  44. 44

    @43 “Admit it.”

    We admit it. When have we not admitted there are bad apples on both sides of the spectrum?

    Now … when is your side going to admit it? I’m not talking about you, I mean the people who are given the responsibility of enforcing ethics rules, and instead of fulfilling that responsibility use their position to protect their cronies — the Doc Hastings of the world.

  45. 45

    @40 The military is going to protect military secrets. They have to make an example of Manning because they can’t have Army privates overruling decisions by generals about what’s classified and what’s okay for the public to know. Everyone hates leakers and whistleblowers. Even Obama hates them; he’s relentlessly hunting down the leakers in his own administration. Just can’t have peons making decisions about what gets disclosed to the public. It undermines the whole power system.

  46. 46

    @43 “Society has members who do not play by the rules.”

    Libertarians think society should have no rules. Problem solved.

  47. 47

    You seemingly are alleging that No Child Left Behind caused the Atlanta grade changing scandal. Those poor administrators would not have done it had they not had the opportunity for advancement and bonuses though NCLB.

    Yes. That is exactly what I’m saying. Why is that so hard for you to accept. Since their advancement and bonuses, income and employment is so linked to test scores and only that, they have the incentive to cheat and hack the system.

    You keep trying to ignore the set up, the programs, the framework in place that incentivized them to cheat.

  48. 48

    @ 47

    Since their advancement and bonuses, income and employment is so linked to test scores and only that, they have the incentive to cheat and hack the system.

    Here’s the thing: Working life, for many, is rife with temptation and potential for ill-gotten riches, for those who are immoral enough to fall prey to temptation. Many, many employees the world over are trusted by their employers to manage vast amounts of money or tangible equity.

    And yet, the very large majority of them are honest about it. And a good portion of those who are not get caught and fired/arrested.

    There’s nothing unique to the Atlanta teacher scandal. Other than there being a whole shitload of teachers in on it.

  49. 49

    @ 47

    You keep trying to ignore the set up, the programs, the framework in place that incentivized them to cheat.

    And in explaining away their crimes, you continue to ignore the concept that honest people do not cheat.

  50. 50

    Whatever the motivation, it was criminal and immoral. Period.

    LOL! Pooh-pooh the motivation, punish whoever got caught and problem solved..

    I’ve said it for years. To a klownservative, the worst crime is getting caught.

    Otherwise anything goes.. Put up a good front. Keep up your “family values” rating etc..

    As Al Davis said back in the day, “Just win baby!”

  51. 51

    You started the discussion in response to Lib Sci, as a example of corruption in a school system. So why did you bring up a story that ignores the concept that honest people do not cheat, in the first place?

    I’m not try to explain away their crimes, I’m trying to understand why their crimes happened, and call to action to fix that.

    The school officials would not have had an incentive to cheat, except, like you said, their bonuses and promotions were tied to improving their test scored. If you don’t change the system that rewards only test scored, then this will happen again and again.

  52. 52

    This cheating scandal isn’t Les Miserables.

    These aren’t starving PT McDonald’s employees caught for grabbing a Big Mac too old to sell because they’re hungry. They’re college-educated, credentialed public employees going for a bonus they can only get by cheating.

    We don’t excuse theft for people that are in jobs at the top end of the pay scale, not enough experience to move higher, and can’t get that vacation home unless they get it dishonestly.

    I don’t, anyway. Apparently if it’s a public employee, it’s sort of a sliding scale thing to some of you.

  54. 54

    @52. You seem to think that we are some how forgiving these people for cheating. Not at all.

    Did you post this because the people involved were mostly black and likely voted democratic?

  55. 55

    @ 53

    Only the hospital’s operating theaters and intensive-care units are air-conditioned, to reduce energy costs.
    Changing Procedures
    One of the ways in which Shetty is able to keep his prices low is by cutting out unnecessary pre-op testing, he said.

    Wonder how the nurses’ union in OH would like no A/C?

    Cutting out unnecessary testing? Why, that would be great. One estimate I read is that 7% of medical costs are defensive medicine practiced to avoid malpractice suits. You OK with capping punitive damage awards, YLB? You think the Trial Lawyers Association will donate as heavily to Dem candidates if that occurs?

    Tell ya what, YLB. If you need a heart procedure I will cough up the $1,583 if you promise to have it done in India without all those vexing pre-op tests to make sure you won’t die during it. Seems like a pretty good bet from my end.

  56. 56

    @ 54

    Did you post this because the people involved were mostly black and likely voted democratic?

    Why, yes, yes I did. That’s exactly why I posted in response to Lib Sci.

    Because there simply is no other analogy between @ 3 and @ 4, is there?

    NTfF, wasn’t it you @ 25 that posted about comments that show an argument is being lost? Look @ 54 inward, sir.

  57. 57

    @56. I thought so. Thanks for admitting it. It’s typical of you, you never miss a opportunity to take a cheapshot.

    This discussion has run it’s course for me. I have nothing new to add.

  58. 58

    @52 “These aren’t starving PT McDonald’s employees caught for grabbing a Big Mac too old to sell because they’re hungry.”

    They aren’t billionaire banksters who wrecked the economy, either. I don’t see you ranting about them. What’s with your teacher-hating fetish? Did you have a bad experience with a teacher in grade school? Oh, I get it, they’re public employees. Wingnut Central has ordered rank-and-file wingnuts to hate public employees.

  59. 59

    @ 57

    This discussion has run it’s course for me. I have nothing new to add.

    That was the case for you beginning @ 25.

    Oh. You forgot to accuse me of racism for bringing up Silas Potter. School thing, local guy, recently in the news, most people on HA have heard about him, and he took advantage of a well-meaning program to enrich himself. But racist because I brought it up. Use that one next time, too. Make a list. It’s as valid as your understanding of the bet about which you ignorantly refer, NTfF.

    Good day, all.

  60. 60

    @55 “You OK with capping punitive damage awards, YLB? ”

    Punitive damage awards have always been capped. Juries cap them. If a plaintiff’s lawyer can’t persuade the jury that the defendant’s conduct was so egregious the defendant deserves to be punished by paying exemplary damages, the plaintiff gets zero punitive damages. They’re also capped by judges, who have discretion to reduce jury awards — to zero, if the judge so chooses.

    Carlos, I doubt that you have any understanding of why we even have punitive damages. They’re to deter egregious conduct harmful to society at large. Examples include a restaurant chain that keeps serving dangerously hot coffee even though hundreds of its customers have been burned and an auto company that keeps making and selling cars with gas tanks that are known to explode on rear impact. The whole reason for punitive damages is because we have people who are so indifferent to the health and well-being of others that the only way to get their attention is to hit them with the only thing they care about — in the pocketbook.

    You want a cap on punitive damages? Here’s an easy way to cap the punitive damages that someone — anyone — can get against you at zero: Don’t engage in conduct so egregious and so indifferent to the rights of others that punishing you with exemplary damages is the only way to get you to stop that behavior.

    As for allowing Republicans to set a legal limit on the punitive damages that juries can award, no, I won’t agree to that. What is an appropriate limit for a crooked banker or trader who crashes entire industries and economies? There isn’t one. For a careless surgeon who repeatedly kills patients? I think a jury should have the power to strip him of everything he owns.

  61. 61

    “Did you post this because the people involved were mostly black and likely voted democratic?”

    “Why, yes, yes I did. That’s exactly why I posted in response to Lib Sci.”

    Holding up some blacks for scorn and trash public schools. For Bob, a twofer. Add a union bash and it gets even better.

  62. 62

    “Source I read said the child has no kidneys. That may not have been an accurate description, granted.”

    Geez, Doctor Bob, I really do hope you take more care reading x-rays. Um, does this have anything to do with your anxious quest for a punitive damages cap?

  64. 64

    At comparable points in their presidencies, for every day Obama has taken off, Bush had already taken 4.5 days off. Obama could stay on vacation for the rest of 2013 and still not be within striking distance of Bush’s hyper-lazy pace

    Oh boy… Focus on the days and not the costs. What was the status of the country when Bush took his vacations vs. what Obummer has wrought?

    Once again HA libtards jump to read the PMSNBC story every time. The least watched cable view but the HA libtards grovel in front of their sets and on their computers eating up absolute HorseSHIT! No wonder it’s another illegitimate cynical scream from left wrong morons!

    From the Washington Post on Booooooosh vacations…

    “Bush rarely takes the type of vacation one would consider exotic — or, to some, even appealing. His notion of relaxation is chopping cedar on his ranch or mountain biking through rough terrain, all in 100-degree-plus temperatures in dusty Texas where crickets are known to roast on the summer pavement. He seems to relish the idea of exposing aides and reporters to the hothouse environment.”

    Obummer’s Hawaii vacations costs around $20 Million by themselves.

    The First Family’s Hawaii vacation, taken annually since Obama was elected to office 5 years ago, typically costs taxpayers more than $4 million.

    And per the US Air Force…

    Travel time for Air Force One direct from Washington D.C. to Hawaii is about 9 hours or as high as $1,635,813 each way for a total of $3,271,622 for the round trip to Hawaii and back.

    Now let’s visit Mrs Obummer…

    White House sources today claimed that the First Lady has spent $10million of U.S. taxpayers’ money on vacations alone in the past year.

    Of course Rachel Madcow didn’t include the Obummer golf outing with Tiger Woods costing local Florida law enforcement $78 Large+

    Please perform some research before posting anything from the “woman” who claimed that there was NO Preamble to the Constitution.

    Good grief!

  65. 65

    @64 I’m for a well-rested president. If a $3 million vacation keeps him from blundering into a $3 trillion war, it’s money well spent. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather pay for a $3 million vacation than a $3 trillion war.

  66. 66

    Between Bush and Obama, Obama is a cheaper president so far. Compared to Bush, having him in the White House is like the difference between a $1 can of tuna or a $10,000 tuna fishing trip.

  68. 68

    @63 Sounds to me like the cops and firefighters who backed Walker are getting their just desserts.

  70. 70

    A white hispanic man, Aaron Hernandez kills a black man Odin Lloyd. Where is Al NotSoSharpton or Jesse HiJackson or the left wrong media screaming about this

    I N J U S T I C E?

    He was on ESPN again. Bill Belichick had a news conference on Aaron. Tim Tebow was asked about the event in 2007 when Tim intervened for Aaron. Well, Aaron Hernandez pled not guilty to killing Odin Lloyd, a black man. It seems he may have off’d two people from Cape Verde in 2012 using his uncle’s SUV. Where is the outrage? Where is Fascist Pigsty and other deep stinkers on this crisis?

    Where is Obummer claiming the gunshot victim Odin Lloyd could have been his son? Aaron Hernandez is way whiter than George Zimmerman so how is Aaron a protected class Hispanic and Zimmerman isn’t? Is it because Aaron was a great football star in the NorthEast DUMMOCRAPTIC Amerikkka? Where is Nancy Pelosi holding fake one sided Congressional hearings like today figuring out a way to use Odin Lloyd’s killing to their political advantage telling the world she hears their rage?

    More crap from one-sided DUMMOCRAPTS!

  71. 71

    @64 I’m for a well-rested president.

    So you have no issue with Bush taking all those vacations at his homes.

    Thanks for playing.

  73. 73

    65)Well said.

    Well said ERF? Hmmm…? When this preznit is formenting class warfare, telling everyone the rich aren’t paying their fair share while living larger than most rich? Increasing the national DEBT by $7 Trillion in less than 5 years?

    Puddy expects Roger SENILE DUMBASS and LUNATIC Wabbit to act an idiot above but you ERF?

    Well Puddy guesses all libtards will circle dem wagons when the truth comes out!

  74. 74

    #166 and another EPIC FAYLE. Two words. Blooming IDIOT!

    BTW unemployed scum, have you classified every PuddyMissive?

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    TROFLRHMBBAO!

    Notice HA’s unemployed pond scum can’t ever debate an issue! Hate hate hate! Keep it up!

  76. 76

    Dr. Howard Dean claims death panels are going to occur in ObummerCare. Yet on August 23, 2009 the same Dr. Howard Dean sang a different tune! Puddy already posted the link!

  77. 77

    68)They were warned. I think that the waiting period helped Walker. Mayor Frank Edwards did not have that luxury when he fired J.D.Ross. The firing was in March, the Recall election in July was not even close, 125K to 15K.
    http://www.historylink.org/ind.....le_id=3548

    As I said about Kasich, he was up front, and the voters spoke later in 2011. Just the signatures required a structural engineer to see if the Secretary of State’s office could handle the weight.

  78. 78

    Caught with your pants down hypocrite!

    That’s the best you got unemployed pond scum? Wait for it… unemployed pond scum will goto the crazed databaze! Wait for it…

    Now watch…

    So easy to name you. Take unemployed and add whatever Puddy thinks at the time!

  80. 80

    Now watch…

    Puddy Pavlov called it again.

    #167 and still all EPIC FAYLES!

    Keep it cumming unemployed smelly dog shit! Hate hate hate 24×7!

  81. 81

    Speaking of white his panics HA’s unemployed urinal will goto the crazed databaze once again…

    Watch…

  82. 82

    Obama works harder on his job than the beloved empty suit you voted for twice.

    Bwaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

    Damn that was funny unemployed floating turd!

  83. 83

    @70

    Oh look. Piddles is race baiting.

    In the Hernandez case the detectives made an arrest within days. Zimmerman? not so much. By all accounts, the local PD actually investigated Hernandez fully as soon as the body was discovered. Zimmerman? Not so much.

    And really, you actually think the Hernandez case ISN’T all over the media daily? Let me know when an entire news network starts daily telling us what a travesty Hernandez’s arrest is.

    Silly little Piddles.

  84. 84

    Silly little Checkmate. Very Stoooooooooooooooooooopid too!

    Notice how checkmate skips over the questions… Instead checkmate throws up more HORSESHIT…

    In the Hernandez case the detectives made an arrest within days. Zimmerman? not so much.

    And the police claimed there was no REAL evidence to arrest. What did the one minority juror who claimed Zimmerman got away with murder say about Zimmerman trial? It shouldn’t have happened. She also said it wasn’t about race. But the poverty pimps are making it all about race. Well Odin Lloyd was black and Hernandez is a white Hispanic. When the juror was asked by Roberts whether the case should have gone to trial, Maddy said, “I don’t think so.”

    Where is Al NotSoSharpton or Jesse HiJackson or the left wrong media screaming about this I N J U S T I C E?

    Where is the outrage?

    Where is Fascist Pigsty and other deep stinkers on this crisis?

    Where is Obummer claiming the gunshot victim Odin Lloyd could have been his son?

    Aaron Hernandez is way whiter than George Zimmerman so how is Aaron a protected class Hispanic and Zimmerman isn’t?

    Is it because Aaron was a great football star in the NorthEast DUMMOCRAPTIC Amerikkka?

    Where is Nancy Pelosi holding fake one sided Congressional hearings like today figuring out a way to use Odin Lloyd’s killing to their political advantage telling the world she hears their rage?

    Notice how checkmate demonizes Puddy but won’t discuss the questions.

    Poor deflection checkmate… EPIC FAYLE!

  85. 85

    Piddles wants us to be upset that a white guy shot a black guy. In fact he wants us to demand justice. Never mind that the perpetrator is in jail without bail, he wants us to be outraged. Piddles wants us to be angry that the justice system is well on the way to making sure the criminal doesn’t see another free day. But we’re not outraged enough.

    Race Baiting.

    Try again.

  87. 87

    Man this checkmate is crazy… checkmate still won’t answer the questions. Must be he has no answers today like every day on HA!

    Piddles wants us to be upset that a white guy shot a black guy.

    BULLSHIT… Puddy wants this killing to be held in the same light as Trayvon’s killing you dumbASS! In fact it seems Aaron Hernandez was a cold blooded killa. So it should be held in higher angst!

    In fact he wants us to demand justice. Never mind that the perpetrator is in jail without bail, he wants us to be outraged.

    And you are not? Silly checkmate. Stoooooooooooooopid checkmate. A man is dead and you are not outraged! A white hispanic kills a black man and you are not outraged? Typical HA DUMMOCRAPT!

    Piddles wants us to be angry that the justice system is well on the way to making sure the criminal doesn’t see another free day. But we’re not outraged enough

    Wow, the BULLSHITTIUM just flows from your fingers. Once again an HA libtard trying to put words in pixels for Puddy.

    EPIC FAYLE checkmate. You are one sad act of a libtard moonbat! Another crazy loon!

    As the say in chess. C H E C K M A T E!

  88. 88

    Hey HA libtards… Puddy found a message from Trayvon to y’all! Amazing what a 12 year old will do. Oh wait this picture he’s much older than the ones the libtard msm continue to use!

  89. 89

    Hey Puddy

    Don’t you feel stupid spending your whole summer vacation posting on a blog? Get some fresh air.

  91. 91

    Don’t you feel stupid spending your whole summer vacation posting on a blog? Get some fresh air.

    Not on vacation MarkStooooooooooopid! Puddy working on a nice fat check right now somewhere in America. Ask the unemployed diarrhea stool@90 where Puddy is. The unemployed diarrhea stool@90 tracks Puddy 24×7!

    Oh look another brown stain @90.

  92. 92

    The unemployed diarrhea stool@90 is coming to his homie Aaron Hernandez’ defense. His own security camera capotured his image with a gun just after the time Lloyd posted he was with Hernandez unemployed diarrhea stool@90!

    Goto it!

  93. 93

    His own security camera capotured his image with a gun just after the time Lloyd posted he was with Hernandez

    Oh is that a fact our “goto” pet klownservative fool for laughs around here???

    Rushing to judgment right like these guys did?? All that fancy hardware and they “saw” guns too!

    What an insufferable bigoted ass you are! A guy with a last name like Zimmerman you “wait”, a name like Hernandez you can’t wait to come here to crow that a hispanic “killed” a black guy and rant your ODS sickness..

    One more time!

    I will wait for our justice system before I pass judgment.

    Pathetic asshole!

  94. 94

    As CBS 2’s Don Champion reported, a surveillance video shows the stabbing suspect moments before his act Monday night, strolling along wearing a hoodie.

    Remember, don’t judge the person cuz they wear a hoodie.

  95. 95

    What an insufferable bigoted ass you are! A guy with a last name like Zimmerman you “wait”, a name like Hernandez you can’t wait to come here to crow that a hispanic “killed” a black guy and rant your ODS sickness..

    ODS? Bigoted? Coming from the fingers of Mr North Pasadena man? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Obummer opened his mouth and claimed Trayvon would look like his son. So Puddy asks how about Odin? Could he be Obummer’s son too? Obummer would have been 23 when Odin was born. The FBI investigation showed no malice in Zimmerman. U lose unemployed dirtbag!

    Once again all can see HA’s uninformed unemployed koro diseased fool doesn’t get it. Why does HA suffer this moron? Must be they need a leftist moonbat loony unemployed gutter dweller to make them look smarter.

    Leftists rushed to judgment on the Zimmerman case. The lone minority juror said the case should have never went to court. There was no real evidence. It was a witch hunt by Florida Attorney General Angela Corey! Zimmerman was beat up by Trayvon. The police photos showed that. The prosecution witness proved that. Self defense.

    Odin Lloyd texts his sister he was with “NFL” meaning Hernandez minutes before he was “offed”. Then he’s killed. Can Hernandez claim self defense with others in the car with Lloyd? Didn’t Hernandez call Lloyd to meet him outside? Next the photo from Hernandez’ home security system has him with a gun. Then Hernandez destroys his phone and home security system but the pictures are still there.

    One more thing continually unemployed loon; his pals Ernest Wallace and Carlos Ortiz were also arrested. Must have been the others in the Hernandez car when Odin was “offed”. There is video of Hernandez near a gas station in Dorchester and at one in North Attleborough that night. There is video of Hernandez and Odin Lloyd entering an industrial yard where Lloyd’s bullet-ridden body was found.

    Video, not a friend of the unemployed couch daddy!

    Keep dope alive, cuz you are the unemployed dope of HA!

  96. 96

    95 – LOL! More babbling from our goto klownservative fool for laughs in these threads..

    Leftists rushed to judgment on the Zimmerman case.

    All anybody said around here is a sixteen year old kid armed with a soft drink and candy shot by an armed cop wannabe ought to have a day in court..

    Asshole! Here’s a perfect example of “rush to judgement” of sorts right here… Impressed asswipe?

    Here’s a question to ponder:

    What is more klownservative?

    Trial by klownservative media like the crap @ 95 or

    I will wait for our justice system before I pass judgment.

    Whatever.. Jerk.

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