I stopped by the open house at the Vance Building last night, where a bevy of progressive organizations have set up office, proving there’s camaraderie, if not necessarily safety in numbers. There was free food, always an attraction to starving bloggers, and the halls flowed liberally with booze and schmooze; it was kinda like a roaming, multistory Drinking Liberally, but with a less embarrassing ratio of men to women.
Wandering from office to office, each with their own special interests and their own particular agenda, a common theme arose in regard to expectations for the coming legislative session. It will be a busy two months the various activists and organizers told me, hopefully filled with some small victories on important issues. But the really ambitious agenda — the substantive legislation on issues ranging from tax reform to transportation to publicly financed campaigns and more — well, that would have to wait until 2009.
It was like a Passover seder (but with cheese on the crackers, and potable wine,) as a common prayer arose from the Vance Building last night: “Next year in Olympia.” Next year, I was repeatedly told, after Gov. Gregoire wins reelection, and the Democrats hold or expand their legislative majority, that’s when we can expect a truly progressive agenda. Next year, with the burden of electoral politics temporarily lifted from their shoulders, the Democrats would apparently be free to make progress on some of our most pressing issues.
Of course, a lot of things can happen in a year that can lead to an awful lot of disappointment. Voters don’t always behave the way we expect them to behave, and candidates don’t always run the kind of campaign they should. And even if we manage to keep our unchallenged hold on Olympia, the Democratic leadership there has often proven more bold at maintaining and expanding its majority than actually using it. Finally, even if an emboldened Gov. Gregoire does attempt to leave her mark during a second term, her agenda will necessarily be limited; even the most successful legislative session will leave the halls of the Vance Building scattered with winners and losers.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but if I were tasked with pushing a bill, I’d be pushing it hard in 2008, with the Democratic governor and near legislative supermajority we have now, rather than waiting for some political heaven on earth next year in Olympia. But then, I’ve never been a man of faith.
Boy you can sure see its a election year.
They’ll all be lucky enough if the Vance Bldg doesn’t get demolished to make way for a new condo tower.
“…kinda like a roaming, multistory Drinking Liberally, but with a less embarrassing ratio of men to women.”
Curious…how were you able to tell them apart?
In Hitler’s Germany, Communists faced with the rise and power of National Socialism mollified themselves with the maxim, “Nach Hitler, uns!”
Unfortunately, Hitler had other ideas, and most of the Nach types found themselves dead or in concentration camps.
So-called “progressive” types need to understand that, while the Governor and legislature are currently Demos, such may not always be the case. And even if the current crew plus a few are in Oly come 1/09, enough of the true blue Demo crew are business-oriented, centrist types (shall I name the ones from the Eastide?…save, that is, my Vidkun Quisling-wannabe State Senator) who appreciate your votes, take your HA Happy Hoolihandfulls of compaign contributions, will still screw you in the end…figuratively speaking, of course.
It’s writ large in the heavens!
Makes no never mind if it’s 2008 or 2009, your requests for governmental excess – the critical mass of all “progressive” agendas – will be paid lip service, be thanked for, lauded for its perscapacity, and then…ignored.
No Workers’ Paradise in the offing any time soon.
The Piper
Re-Elect Gregoire? Huh? When was she elected the first time.
Is Dean Logan coming back to do more fraud?
Mark the Forgettful Redneck @ 4,
I think I get it now…you suffer from advanced Alzheimer’s. You see…there was an election in 2004 that was won (under the most intense scrutiny) by Gov. Gregoire.
You also seem to be forgetting that you made a bet with Goldy for $100 over the outcome of I-912. Yet you have not made good on that bet. Shall I provide you with links to the deliberations? Or will you now make good on your bet?
@4 “Re-Elect Gregoire? Huh? When was she elected the first time.”
Republican whining, something they seem particularly good at.
Redneck @4,
Thumbsucker.
@3 Piper
With all due respect, this message is beyond the pale.
Calling good Americans, Nazis and Communists is obscene. It is is FAR worse than the sort of sexual epithets our society uses all time, words like fucker, mother fucker, SOB, bitch, whore, etc. because people actually act on terms like commie, nazi, fascist, etc.
Moreover, given the tone of Goldy’s post, the comparison to Passover … a holiday that celebrates freedom, a Jewish holiday, your post is of such bad taste that I am disgusted.
The ONLY excuse for such a post is utter ignorance. Assuming that is true, I suggest you request that the damn thing be deleted.
Back on earth, and ignoring Piper ..
Goldy, can you tell us more ..
1. is this a long term idea? or is it just some elction nyear gambit.
2. could this be the answer to the issues I keep raising in re Rossi/Gregoire? Could this lead to her developing a spine and promoting programs more robust than one year fixes?
3. Can you post (or send me) the names and phone numbers of these orgs. Sound like somethink I would like to photograph.
I’m a Democrat who has been profoundly disappointed in Gregoire’s lack of leadership. She should have taken a page from George W’s first-term book and governed like she had a HUGE mandate. Instead, she’s tried not to piss anyone off, which has had the perverse effect of pissing EVERYBODY off. She lost 31 of 39 counties the first time around and only an overwhelming win in Seattle and the surrounding environs put her into office. But if she loses a small portion of the support that put her over the top in the last election — which is likely given her craven stance on issues like the viaduct, prop. 1 and others — she’s almost guaranteed to go down in defeat.
http://www.jetcityjournal.typepad.com
Democrats should try to move three steps forward for the inevitable Republican two-steps back.
@10 Kevin Pedraja,
Sure, you’re a Democrat, and all you can do is rag on the Governor.
Personally, I think she’s done a pretty good job. I live in Lewis Co.,and she immediately took the bull by the horns when we had the catastrophic flooding last month. Even longtime Republicans were impressed by her quick reaction.
@8…Steve…
When did I call anyone either a Nazi or Communist?
What I did was to use a historic parallel. Goldy’s words:
“Next year, I was repeatedly told, after Gov. Gregoire wins reelection, and the Democrats hold or expand their legislative majority, that’s when we can expect a truly progressive agenda. Next year, with the burden of electoral politics temporarily lifted from their shoulders, the Democrats would apparently be free to make progress on some of our most pressing issues.”
Those “nest year” schemes always fall flat, just ask the Chicago Cubs. The classic and most disasterous example remains what happened with the German Communist Party during and after the rise of Hitler. It was literally wiped off the face of the planet, with the Communists who came in post-war to run East Germany being Soviet imports who conveniently sat out the war.
Please carefully read what I wrote @3 and show me where I called anyone in Olympia or Washington State either a Nazi or a Communist. As is my wont, I’m always searching for some historic or literary parallel to either help me understand something I’m seeing or explain it to others.
That was what I was doing here.
The Piper
Those “nest year” schemes always fall flat, just ask the Chicago Cubs. The classic and most disasterous example remains what happened with the German Communist Party during and after the rise of Hitler.
Awesome!! So following your logic, the other baseball teams are always trying to put the Cubs in concentration camps. Because even though you may be too stupid to know it, that’s precisely what your analogy is inferring.
what more proof do we need that there is NO difference in the elephants nor asses???
re 13: Piper: Is it the same type of historical parallel that I was using in comparing your footgear to Dorothy’s ruby-red slippers and your penchant for costume and play-acting to Fred Gwynne in a Frankenstein suit?
“I still got it!” Jerry Paris
@4: I was wondering that very thing myself.
The rythem of things in our democracy is as old as the democracy itself. As such, it’s fine for folks with causes to push as hard as hell this year but should come as no shock when they find it harder this year than next to push things through.
re 19: Does your moniker imply that you chose particle over wave?
Piper: I understood your point to be a historical analogy, and to some extent it is well taken – there may never be a next year.
But I also once made a post in which I likened some of the tactics of the Republican party to the early tactics of the Nazis. I (justifiably) got roasted for the comparison, and I made my apologies. As I said then (in my apology), we need to be very carefull when using those labels, both Nazi and Communist, and apply them only to the actual participants or their modern-day followers. Doing otherwise unfairly attaches a label to those who (in all fairness) don’t have much in common with those historical extremes, and to use the terms loosly only tends to gloss over, and lessen the impact of, the attrocities commited by both of those ideologies.
Better we should be very, very, carefull of using those terms in any modern political discussion, lest they be misunderstood.
@21…RHP6033…
No argument…Godwin’s Law is too often violated, and comparisons made of me to the you-know-who’s is living proof of that!
Yet there is a place for comparative analysis. And satire. Just not knee-jerk.
Again…fair point.
The Piper
Yeah, I’ve never been impressed with the very gradual approach the Olympia Dems have taken, because it assumes that the Democrats have a lock on the governor’s office. Considering how close we came to Governor Rossi, and seeing Governors Romney, Schwarzenegger, Pataki, Weld and Ryan, there is NOTHING that says to me that Governor Gregoire is a lock in 2009. The fact that the Viaduct and 520 are still floating out there and subject to unending “Seattle Way” process after a full term, health care is at best being advanced on the margins, and people still treat Tim Eyman like a 900 pound gorilla… well, I think a lot of voters are going to be receptive to an argument that some turnover in the Governor’s office wouldn’t kill us, especially if the Legislature stays D and keeps Rossi from doping anything incredibly stupid (like repealing abortion laws and so on).
I mean, really, think about it. Mitt Romney AND the Governator arguably have more feathers in their cap than Governor Gregoire… and they were dealing with heavy D majorities as Republicans.
The lady just inspires no enthusiasm, and thanks to caving to Eyman, she manages to take dumps all over the progressive base. She’d better hope that stack of dollars gets her elected, because I’m guessing the enthusiasm in the WA progressive community is going to be in electing people like the next President, Burner and Goldmark, not in electing Dan Evans in drag (really, I think 30 years ago, Gregoire would have been a moderate-to-liberal Republican).
What if Gregoire is the Veep nominee? That would change a lot of things in Olympia.
Or what if she becomes Attorney General under a Democratic president? That’s a plausible scenario, too.
It’s an interesting question whether Democrats at the national level will try to lure Gregoire into a national administration. Of course, if the GOPers manage to steal another presidential election — making it 3 in a row — these musings will be merely academic.
@27…RR…
As what? Is there an opening for upstairs maid?
On anyone’s short list of the 1,000 top possible candidates for VEEP, A-G or anything, she’s number 6,989,083.
Go back and re-read McLuhan’s “The Medium is the Message,” then tell me how Miss Un-Photogenic is going to attract national voters of any stripe.
Her idea of foreign policy is an extended warranty on a car she’ll purchase at one of Dave Smith’s dealerships in Kellogg, ID.
The Piper
10 “I’m a Democrat who has been profoundly disappointed in Gregoire’s lack of leadership. She should have taken a page from George W’s first-term book and governed like she had a HUGE mandate.”
Well, fortune wasn’t as kind to her. Nobody flew a jetliner into the Columbia Tower.
There’s no percentage in Gregoire as a VP candidate.
Governor Napolitano of Arizona is a more likely candidate for Obama, and Richardson has to be seriously considered for either Clinton or Obama.
Frankly, I think it’s more likely that Ron Sims would be considered for Department of Commerce. I know he’s easy to beat up on (I’m still outraged over his flip-flop on Sound Transit Prop. #1), but on the whole, he’s managed King County well and he’s been more forward-looking (plans to assess and counteract the effects of global warming within King County, for instance) than most politicians around here.
Gregoire hasn’t been as dynamic as I would like for her to have been during her first term as governor, but I suspect the race for 2008 is still hers to lose, and here’s why.
1) People aren’t associating her directly with the Alaskan Way Viaduct. Judy Clibborn gets more press attention these days regarding both that and the 520 replacement (though Gregoire might tick off a few folks with her comments requiring tolls on the existing bridge as part of the process to build the new one).
2) She hasn’t torqued off the African-American community, which her staff did in 2004.
3) Areas outside of King County did get a fair bit more funding for their projects courtesy of the state legislature, and she gets to take some of the credit for that.
4) She won’t suddenly win Lewis County, but I think folks will remember that she, not the mayors of Chehalis or Centralia, not the county officials of Lewis county, was the one on the scene and making sure people received aid regardless of their political background and level of past support (unlike the other folks I just mentioned). And Grays Harbor County, which tends to vote Democrat and was also badly affected by the flooding (Pacific County also took a terrible hit from the storm), will remember in spades.
5) The business community doesn’t see her with the same level of animosity it did in 2004. I have no doubt that the BIAW will do it’s usual nasty on anyone not willing to submit to their demands, but she’s actually been able ot fundraise and get financial support form this specific community.
6) Dino isn’t using media to target the middle- and upper-class suburbanites he reached out to in 2004. He’s reaching out to the religious right, the BIAW and its minions, and the “no taxes at any price” crowd. And while he’s trying to do a lot of that under the radar, it will eventually get into the public eye, and the majority of folks won’t like it.
7) 2008 is a Presidential year, and a lot of folks are going to pick “D” for almost anything and everything because Bush has left anything with an “R” suspect.
Could Gregoire still stumble badly? Sure. But she has a much better campaign staff this go-round, and they just aren’t as likely to deviate from message or confuse/irritate the public as a whole.
My two bits…
@10 Kevin Pedara
I could not agree more. I have written alot on this subject over at SeattleJew You might go there to see but essentially I think she is a bureaucrat with little leadership skills ..and that is at best. I also get dyspeptic when she tells me I oughta be proud that the three top elected pols in WAState have female genitalia. That is cool, but one ought to get over the novelty and get something done!..
@13 Piper
Re=read your own post. If you do not see how utterly insulting it is, you really need to get help. It is one thing to be poorly informed or spout superficial rightist views, this goes way beyond that.
@22 I suggest you go to an OED and look up satire before posting hate like this again.
@27 CG in the Whitehouse
One reason I am NOT a HRC fan is exactly that kind of affirmative action crap. A number of Bill Clinton’s appointments were clearly based on gender or race without repect to qualifications or political realities.
I am very afraid that HRC actually considers gender a qualification. The idea that CG .. at best a mediocre lawyer .. might be AG is enough to make me think fondly or Ashcroft (no fool he, as it turns out).
To tell ya the truth, if she is relected and we are smart enough to elect a dem as LG, I would love to see her move to some administrative job in DC … but nothing requiring leadership. This AIN’T the lady to clean up Bush’s horse droppings!
#)
I would like to see Ron in DC but in something where his admin skills would mean more and where the prominence could lead him back home as Senator.
1, Ambassador to China
2. HHS
3. Interior
For that matter, Ron would also be great as head of the EPA.
@31 palamedes says:
Gregoire hasn’t been as dynamic as I would like for her to have been during her first term as governor, but I suspect the race for 2008 is still hers to lose, and here’s why.
1) People aren’t associating her directly with the Alaskan Way Viaduct.
“People” are not running the Rossi campaign.
2) She hasn’t torqued off the African-American community, which her staff did in 2004.
Oh? You really think black folks have that little memory of her racism as an undergrad or the way she dissed Sims??
3) Areas outside of King County did get a fair bit more funding for their projects courtesy of the state legislature, and she gets to take some of the credit for that.
Really? And you think who is going to sell that?
4) She won’t suddenly win Lewis County, .. floods
Such faint praise. Rossi can come back with her failure to address the levy issue ir damns on the Columbia or any ong term planning.
5) TI have no doubt that the BIAW will do it’s usual nasty on anyone not willing to submit to their demands, but she’s actually been able ot fundraise and get financial support form this specific community.
SADLY .. we agree on this one. She has whored as much as pol I can remember. Sometime I think we hired her as an excort service to our capitalist missionaries to asia.. The dfollars raised will tell this story.
6) Dino is minions, and the “no taxes at any price” crowd. And while he’s trying to do a lot of that under the radar, it will eventually get into the public eye, and the majority of folks won’t like it.
It is January. Secure the base.
7) 2008 is a Presidential year, and a lot of folks are going to pick “D” for almost anything and everything because Bush has left anything with an “R” suspect.
We hav e been there before. Also knowing the Prexy will be a Dem, decreases the urgency of voting for a demo gov.
01/11/2008 a
@33…Steve…
Show me exactly with the words I used how I did what you allege. Don’t just read something into them, take the words themselves and analyze them.
What I did is make a historic comparison, one I’ve used many times before whenever someone floats a “wait until next year” strategy.
Again…specific words I used, please.
The Piper
Piper,
Your off base analogy was rather odd. I mean, the lesson you posit for the 1930’s German ccp seems to be “shoot first, aim later”, or “get them before they get us”. Thus it really has little if any applicability to the “wait until next year” strategy.
How’s that ‘permanent republican majority’ working out for you? That ebbing tide has yet to raise my boat.
Whatever.
@37:
1) The Rossi campaign has nothing with which to stick on Gregoire regarding the viaduct replacement, and only the recent comments regarding early tolling for 520. That could hurt her if she flip-flops or fails to provide a reasonable explanation for why she believes that, but I suspect she will make her case.
2) She’s been doing outreach to atone for her gaffes in 2004 to the African-American community since that election – they will forgive if she admits she screwed up, and she has.
3) I suspect Gregoire will sell it where she needs additional votes, with Dem state Reps and Senators to accompany her and reinforce the local version of the message. Everett, Vancouver, Aberdeen, Spokane and Bellingham for starters, if we want to talk outside of King County.
4) Such comments by Rossi won’t stick unless those listening are already pre-disposed to hear what they want to hear. She was there, present, and making sure relief efforts got done, which no local poobah in Lewis county was doing. Like I said, she isn’t winning Lewis County tomorrow, but they won’t ignore her efforts either. And Grays Harbor definitely won’t.
5) Like it or not, unless truly hated, whoever the incumbent is is going to get at least a modicum of support from the business community. It says a lot that, given the close race in 2004, a larger portion of it than anticipated is leaning her way. But you’re going to have to be specific to show me “whoredom in action”. I can easily point out who’s selling their souls to the BIAW, and she isn’t one of them – wary, yes, but to the best of my knowledge, not selling out.
6) Dino didn’t do this in January 2004. He had radio ads out immediately, talking about his janitor days, ad nauseum. People around me at work that weren’t politically active but that usually voted Dem were telling me that Rossi seemed like an OK guy in large part because he set the narrative and Gregoire’s staff didn’t challenge it. Dino now has a new narrative, and it isn’t going to work, because at its base it is ultimately negative. It wasn’t in 2004.
7) Uh-uh. You severely undervalue the rage out there, friend. Why do you think we’re breaking records for Dem participation in the Iowa caucus and New Hampshire primary? Why do you think anti-war Ron Paul and populist/anticorporate Mike Huckabee are doing as well as they are, with devoted, hard to shake followings for each campaign? Paul is a racist to the core, but he’s very anti-Iraq War and that plus his severe public mistrust of the Federal government resonates with Libertarians and younger wanna-bes who are disgusted with government in general because Bush is almost all many of them know. Huckabee has a huge chunk of the Religious Right on his side, but they’re as much following him as someone who’ll stand up financially for the little guy as much as because he’s “God’s candidate.” (There is a reason even whacky ol’ Pat Robertson supported the last mineworkers during the Pittston Strike in 1989-90 – he knew who watched his show.)
@39…PTBAA…
Well, I guess my point went over the heads of some, so let me explain…
The issue isn’t “shoot first,” or anything even remotely like that. The theory under which German Communists operated in the very early 30’s was that if Hitler came to power, he’d screw the pooch so bad it would grease the skids for them. In other words, his early success would necessarily be followed by failure making their way
The problem was the German Communists didn’t factor in the willingness of Hitler to move against them as one of his first acts, which he did. Essentially, the indigineous German Communist Party was wiped out because Hitler wanted to make sure that he would be without opposition if he failed. After he acted against his external enemies, he then went to work against the internal ones by purging his ranks of supporters to eliminate potential rivals.
The post-war rulers of East Germany were all Germans who’d fled to Russia who were then installed by the Soviets rather than hang around Germany waiting for Hitler to fail.
The central point? Do not assume your political enemy or someone who stands in your way either through opposition or insuffiecient dedication, is going to wilt of his own accord opening the door for you, or that it’s going to get better any time soon.
The corollary, which I also mentioned, was the ad infinitum, ad nauseum plaint of the Chicago Cubs, “Wait until next year.”
There is no, “Next year,” there’s only now; the right time to do the right thing is right now.
In a sense then and from a political theory and strategy sense, I was agreeing with Goldy, not his Vance Building pals. What’s the cliche? Carpe diem, or seize the day.
Here’s an example of where that worked: Lenin and the Bolsheviks seizing power through sheer audacity and iron will. By all rights, the White Russian government had no business being displaced by the numerically inferior and functionally unarmed Bolsheviks. But Lenin saw an opening in the confusion of the Alexander Kerensky government, realized it would be there only for a moment, and acted boldly to exploit it in what came to be known as the October Revolution.
Veni, vidi, vici – “I came, I saw, I conguered,” said Ceasar.
The analogy has nothing to do with violence or shooting or anything, although some examples of it have involved violence. Rather, it’s a caution against being overly cautious and assuming that someone else will fail all to your benefit.
If these so-called progressives have an agenda, then they better sober up, quit partying, and get their butts out of the Vance Building and down to Olympia NOW, not later.
Of course, it’s my profound hope that they ignore this advice and drink themselves into oblivion and the proverbial “next year.” For once, drunkeness would be in the public interest.
If there be any among you still unclear as to my meaning, I won’t be surprised.
The Piper
40 Good points. Gregoire has the incumbent’s advantage. She might also be expected to be a far more energetic campaigner than she was four years ago after her recent fight with cancer.
In the meantime, Rossi has emerged from the shadows he wisely retired to–it served to dissociate him from the stench of the election challenge. Now, he seems unaware that the world around him has changed. With Lou Guzzo’s corpse calling the shots, he’s playing far more to the extreme right. Maybe he’ll really screw himself by posing for photo ops with Hutcherson and Eyman.
41 OK, Piper…you’ve clarified your point a bit.
It might be claimed that the German Communists were right, but their timing was off by an order of magnitude–it was more like “Wait until next decade”. Hitler certainly made a mess of things, but took longer and did a far more thorough job than anyone could have imagined. By comparison, we can only be thankful that the Bush Gang haven’t manage to be quite as destructive. Of course, the game ain’t over yet.
@38 The words are few enough .
I do not make posts like this lightly.
I am NOT going to jus ify my criticism. You should apologize and move on. More importantly and constructively, and WADR, I suggest you think careful a bit what it is that wouild even motivate such a post.
@40 the polls will tell
and, as of now, CG looks weak. IUf your hypothesis were correct, she would be shoo-in.
On the other issues, CG has put a huge amount of her time into serving with trade delegations. I do not begrudge her the vacations, but I suspect the real issue was fundraising. That is OK too, but ne result was a lack of effort where it was needed.
More importnat to me is that I REALLY want a governor to address the states need for long range answers. CG has not done that.
@44…Steve…
Hmmm…
For one thing, I didn’t say anything for which I need to apologize to anyone. You, without thinking through the comment, jumped to conclusions then condemned me without asking for an explanation.
Typical liberal “tolerance.”
Now when I seek to engage you in conversation to get the full gist of your meaning, you clam up and hide.
Where’s that famous intellectual openness, honesty, and curiousity of yours?
Also, if you studied history, you’d see it replete not only with examples of what I said but also references to the example I used since it exempliefes the point I was making: He who hesitates thinking his enemy will flop is lost…and oft times killed for his trouble.
Google the phrase I used (easiest to do it in quotation marks), and then read the several score surfaced links to get an understanding of the historic, political, and cultural context in which the phrase was used both in its day and today.
You’re in a hole, Steve, so instead of continuing to dig it deeper, take the escape route I’m offering you.
No offense, but arguing over this isn’t your finest hour.
In the meantime, consider the application of this to you: “Huic Maxime putamus malo fuisse nimiam opinionem ingenii atque virtutis.” Nepos, Alcibiades.
The Piper
@46 Piper
For parts of my life i have lived in an African American Community, an Irish/Italian Catholic Community, and a WASP community.
In the AA community I learned NOT to do stupid things like trying to convince my neighbors that the Yiddish word for an AA, “Schwartze” was not offensive.
In the Catholic community I learned that it was dumb to side with the Protestants in North Ireland.
In the WASP community I learned to respect my neighbors at Xmas time when they wanted to sing carols outside my house and to be grateful to be included while being respected.
Look, PS, I do think you try. And if I may say with as little condescension as possible, I do NOT think you meant ill. BUT, when someone tells you that this sort of comparison is offensive, you owe it to YOURSELF, to rethink your intent.
There is NOTHING open minded about comparing the Passover idea of a great goal in the future to Nazis and Stalinists.
There is NO way you can ask me or any other person to respect your opinions when you compare the folks in the Goldy piece to the most despicable humans of our history.
Let me remind you of your own words. When we discussed religion, you finally said that you accept the bible on blind faith. I did not (and would not) liken that to the blind faith of an SS officer. Nor have you ever heard me call GWB anything worse than stupid. I must admit that I do think a lot worse of Chaney, Pat Roberston, etc but if I liken those folks to Nazis, I am prepared to mean what I say.
I have a suggestion for you. I have never enjoyed Rock. Do you have Netflix of Buster? I am about to return a movie on the life of Alan Ginsberg. While I am sure you would not become a Jew or a Buddhist by watching this movie. I do think you might learn a lot from Alan’s amazing tolerance of others. I am not Alan, but I want to convey to you some of what this movie did for my ability to listen to Patti Smith, Frank Zappa, nad even Tibbetan teachers. You might learn a lot from this flick.
In the same spirit, may I suggest to you that if you want to teach others , rather than merely be a pain in the ass smart mouth. then you ought to also try to learn from them. Leaving myself out of it, Goldy, Geov, Lee, Roger, Paul, Will, … not to short anyone else, seem to me to often have good things to teach us all.
The guru teachea;
If all you do is spout off, you loose out.
As for your quote, why would I care about some Roman barbarian’s thoughts about cleverness and valor in discourse?
FWIW, I had six years of Latin. The most useless part of my education.
@47…Steve…
For a guy so allegedly intelligent, you’re pretty dense!
Where did I learn that phrase? From a political science professor at Western back in 1969. Under what context? A prevailing POV among hippies of the day was that the capitalistic system was doomed to collapse of its own weight, and that all they had to do is sit around, smoke dope – they were best at this – read peotry – much of which was written by Allen Ginsberg (correct spelling) – and wait for their day in the son.
Another gem of “wisdom” that a lot of these flower children spouted was that Hitler himself could have been stopped by using passive resistance, like laying down on train tracks to prevent the movement of Wermacht troops. One of these dim bulbs actually demanded that the professor stop being “so conservative,” (his words) and start teaching Gandhi.
The professor didn’t quite say that they were morons and idiots – especially the putz with the Gandhi comment – but he might as well have. He gave them the phrase I used to remind them that naivete in the face of a hardened and determined enemy (1) doesn’t work, and (2) gets you dead.
Now, I NEVER compared anyone to or called anyone either a Nazi or a Communist. What I did was take a lesson from history and apply it to factual setting – to learn from history, albeit bitter and bloody history. That it happened to include historic actors who among history’s greatest villains is beside the point.
But you never bothered to ask what point I was trying to make, did you? You saw a phrase, some descriptive words, and then you went ballistic accusing me of stuff.
Total crap!
The lesson from history, something about which you display appalling ignorance, buttressed the very point Goldy was making in the first place:
“Perhaps I’m wrong, but if I were tasked with pushing a bill, I’d be pushing it hard in 2008, with the Democratic governor and near legislative supermajority we have now, rather than waiting for some political heaven on earth next year in Olympia.”
I draw your attention to two phrases: “…pushing it hard in 2008…” and “…rather than waiting for some political heaven on earth…”
Goldy’s point, as I read it, was act now – offensively or defensively, it makes no never mind – with what you have rather than wait for better circumstances.
Now, it’s also pretty obvious to me that you don’t resepct either my POV or my faith. On that, a couple points: (1) you have that right as an American, and (2) I could care less; I’ve been around bigots before.
That’s right, Steve, I just called you a bigot, a paragon of pre-judgment, intolerance, and unwillingness to consider fully the other fellow’s POV.
Get all huffy if you want, but the facts speak for themselves, and you stand condemned out of your own mouth. Political correctness run amok.
If you are, as you claim, a man of science, then there should be no place for bias or personal prejudice no matter how deeply felt in your thinking. Frankly, you’re failing the test.
For you to lecture me on tolerance is laughable! You, a master of intolerance and religious bigotry! Yes…you are a religious bigot. You do use condescending terms and a smarmy tone to marginalize conservative Christians, and you mock faith.
My guess is that I have more tolerance, and more reason to be tolerant, in a day than you have all month.
In my family, by blood or marriage, are Latinos, blacks, asians (Japanese and Chinese), native Africans (Senagalese), lesbians, believers and non believers, and more. Among my close friends are Christians of many denominations, non-believers, liberals, conservatives, the very political, apolitical, Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians, the odd socialist or two, people of other races, gays, and a special friend who is a Baha’i. They know and accept me for who I am, and they respect, though many disagree, what I believe. I accord them the same.
How DARE you lecture me on tolerance!!!
Here’s a lesson for you:
“1 Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
In short, you reap what you sow.
I believe that and try to live by it. May I suggest you give it a listen, then try yourself?
We all like to play on HA, no one more than me. I come here recognizing that mine is clearly the minority POV, and, as such, I know I can ask for no quarter…and when it comes to suffering fools, offer none.
Lee routinely derides me even to the extent of his pretty mean-spirited Crackpiper Chronicles. Rabbit is simply nasty most of the time. And there are several who are worse…WAY worse. Yet, Mr. Tolerance, you stand mute and let those attacks go without any of your patented moral indignation and outrage.
Methinks it’s less a matter of ethics and more one of not liking to hear unpleasent truths or POV’s with which you’re unfamiliar or disagree.
I genuinely feel sorry for you. Really, I do. Why? Because yours is a narrow POV that’s too reflexive and knee-jerk, and this thread proves it! Too cloistered in the ivory tower of academia, I suppose.
Lest you think I’m angry, know that I don’t waste emotion swatting gnats. They’re irritating, need to be dealt with, but that’s the extent of it.
I’ve dealt with you…
The Piper
@48…Steve…
“FWIW, I had six years of Latin. The most useless part of my education.”
From what I can tell, most of your education was useless!
The Piper
Piper …
!. I am sorry for you. I have only recently discovered Ginsberg. When I was younger, I really did not understand him. He is wonderful.
Your bitterness toward the faculty at Western is too bad .. for you. No they were not right on everything, who knows.
2. Sorry, I do not claim to be tolerant,
OTOH, I have huge respect for people of faith who have the insight and the honesty to deal with facts. Sorry, if it is intolerant of me but if yu feel that Darwin children should be taught that creation is real, that the CFB was NOT a creation of Constantine, that Jesus was a son of David, etc … you are right. I am not tolerant.
Similarly, if you worship a deity who would condemn me, my mother, my children merely for not saying his name, ..you are right, I am not tolerant.
Someday you will tell me how your belief leads you to be humane.
3. An insult taken comes from someone.
If you can not understand that a liberal would resent your comparison .. even by misunderstanding, esp. after the kinds of extremes doen by conservatives over many years in just the name of these systems, then there is something very wrong.
4. In the meantime, may you be enlightened by the same kindly belief in jesus that motivated Ginsberg and Sister Theresa, and John XXIII, and MLK, and Jimmy Carter and Francis Collins and Cesar Chavez.