Damn you Seattle Times…! Damn you all to hell!
First they dump columnist Collin Levey, ending my months-long obsession with the bar-hopping, right wing echo chamber apparatchik. (I love you, Collin!) And now the editorial board starts publishing editorials I actually agree with. What’s next… Frank Blethen championing a state income tax?
In fact, I don’t just agree with today’s editorial asking voters to reject both Initiative 330 and Initiative 336… I wholeheartedly agree with its core thesis.
THE rhetoric surrounding Initiative 330 and Initiative 336 is testament to why such complex issues
Goldy, you’re full of shit as usual.
In The United State of America, power flows from The People to government, not from a ruling class to the ignorant masses as it is in almost every other country in the world. That’s what makes America great. So the ability of The People to act as the ultimate authority is a necessary part of our form of government.
The problem is that politicians in Washington State refuse to address some issues through a combination of greedy, stupidity, and lack of political courage. For example, state sponsored racism could only be outlawed through initiative by The People because politicians refused to address it. Since government greed for The People’s money knows no limits, the only way to control spending is through the initiative process. The only way to get real audits on government is through initiative as we will see in a month.
And so it is with medical malpractice. Doctors have been complaining about jackpot trials for years now, and the politicians have done nothing about it. So they took matters into their own hands and filed an initiative. The opportunistic greedy trial lawyers responded with one of their own in an attempt to continue the gravy train they’re on.
Initiatives are great because they’re simple, easy to understand and written down where everybody can see them. Not so for politicians who stand there and lie about a no new taxes platform in order to get elected, and then pass $8B in transportation taxes to be sent down the same rathole that got us in the problem in the first place. That’s why 912 is here, and why it will pass by 15%.
So if you think initiatives are wrong, don’t attack the process. Don’t attack The People. Attack the politicians who refuse to do their jobs and do them responsibly.
Goldy, trying to determine whether you, the times, the PI, or dr. seuss is more logical is a waste of time.
I thought real progressives were for initiatives, referenda. If not, then lets return to male only, taxpayer only, native born only voting.
Yeah… that’s right… sell the ballot to the highest bidder… now that’s Democracy in action.
Goldy-3
‘Yeah… that’s right… sell the ballot to the highest bidder… now that’s Democracy in action.’
You are acting like the initiative does not actually get voted on. Voting on issues is actually more “democratic” that our Republic form of government.
If you support using the popular vote for presidential elections you should love the initiative process.
Who needs Colin Levey? We have Mark the Redneck. He’s just as stupid and a lot funnier.
In theory, I agree with Goldy. In practice, limiting the use of initiatives ain’t gonna happen in the absence of a major crisis that destroys the credibility of the current system.
A few years ago political scientist Ken Dolbeare put forth a provocative idea that essentially belongs to the “if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em” school of thought. He suggested that the public should be able to regularly (e.g., quarterly) “vote” on a menu of policy issues before Congress (or, by extension, state legislatures).
Dolbeare’s idea is fraught with peril, but I suspect that it has more potential than reverting back to the political structures of the Victorian era. In a 24/7 culture, folks won’t easily give up their perceived power, however dysfunctional it may be.
If we want to wear the label “progressive” (which, BTW, represented a rather centrist movement in the early 20ths Century akin to today’s DLC), then a more forward-looking approach may be needed than to constrict the initiative process.
Ivan @ 5 – Nice comment. Put a lot of thought into that didn’t you? If you’re so fucking smart, take me down point by point. I’ll go further… to be against initiatives, you have to hate America and be unAmerican. Which you apparently are.
Have at it asshole.
IF I RAN THIS COUNTRY ALL REPUBLICANS WOULD BE PREVENTED FROM GIVING BIRTH TO ANOTHER REPUBLICAN!!! THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY EXCEPT I’M TIERD OF SO MANY IDIOTS RUNNING MY LIFE AND DOING IT ALL WRONG. LIKE THE DRAFT CARD BURRNINGS OF THE 60’S, I HAVE BURNED MY VOTER CARD AND VOW NEVER TO VOTE AGAIN. YOU ARE BEING FOOLED INTO THINKING THAT YOUR VOTE COUNTS. THE SYSTEM IS SO SCREWED UP RIGHT NOW IT WILL TAKE THE NEXT 10 OR SO DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTS TO STREIGHTEN IT OUT. AS FOR THE IRAG WAR, IT’S ANOTHER VIETNAM. THERE IS NO PURPOSE TO THE IRAQ WAR AND WE SHOULD NOT BE THERE. A MILLION CHEERS TO THE PROTESTERS OF THE IRAQ WAR WHO ARE TRYING TO DRIVE SOME SENCE INTO YOU KNOW WHO. I THINK I’LL RUN FOR PRESIDENT NEXT TIME AROUND, IT LOOKS LIKE I’D HAVE A GOOD CHANCE OF WINNING,”DONT YOU THINK”?
LIKE THE DRAFT CARD BURRNINGS OF THE 60′S, I HAVE BURNED MY VOTER CARD AND VOW NEVER TO VOTE AGAIN. -Comment by HELLCAT— 10/2/05 @ 8:14 pm
God, thank you very much! Would it only be that more progressives followed your bold lead!
Well, Hellcat, before your run for President, you’ll need to buy a new keyboard for your computer as your caps lock seems to be broke.
As far as Goldy’s post (and Mark the Redneck’s comment), in a way you are both right, however, Mark, the politicians aren’t the only ones not leading. Who puts those politicians in office and keeps them there? Then you wonder why nothing ever changes? To me, it’s like being a shareholder to a company that does something you don’t like so you get a law passed outlawing the action. Confusing? That’s what so many initiatives are like. Don’t like what’s happening in Olympia? Then change the folks running Olympia!! I pretty much have always voted for the challenger in legislative races (no matter what the party). If the voters of this state would start forcing some turnover in the legislature, you’d see change.
Jon@10—
It’s not like we didn’t try like hell to change the folks running Olympia. The folks running Olympia are bureaucrats, pure & simple. No accountability. Occassional musical chairs. This is why no Party should be in charge for 20 years. A lot of our problems are caused by bureaucratic goo and the sucking sound of taxdollars into an unproductive blackhole.
Had Rossi won, you would have seen ALL at will employees asked to resign. Some MAY have been hired back…..but very few. You would have seen a cultural change and some excitement in Olympia. Instead, mediocrity is the order of the day…..as is predictable.
Jon – Uhh.. we did vote for change in Olympia. A few hundred illegal votes changed the outcome.
Goldy; you ever read history books on Wash state and populism? Wierd you are now anti-democratic…
Again, if you wanna rescind the people initiatives, lets also restrict the right to vote, etc.
Overheated rhetoric, ignoring the point. The initiative process is broken. Issues are bought by the signature and with catchy titles and ads. They do not consider the implications which they will cause. THey oversimplify issues. Did you folks read the initial post?
One would have to wonder why you consider VOTERS and your fellow citizens stupid, K. It’s clear you have little/no faith that they can get past “catchy slogans”, see through the ads. read and/or understand the issues.
Could that be why folks dismiss progressives as elitist snobs?
I used to like initiatives, but now I don’t like them. What’s the point of electing legislators if their work is simply dumped by the voters? Repubs. like them because it is easier to cut taxes by initiave than it is to DO things, like raising teachers salaries, reducing class sizes, or installing a poverty prevention act (raising mim. wage). It ain’t the 1880’s anymore, let’s dump initiatives.
The iniative process is how the electorate finally shakes up the complacent.
What I can’t figure out is why this state votes for democrats, but then votes conservatively on just about every initiative. It really makes no sense.
Of course, they also voted for the school funding initiative that sounded really good, but had no funding source. It didn’t work the way it was supposed to, but no one cares – they feel much better having voted to raise teacher salaries.
That’s the problem with initiatives that involved the budget. But, they can be changed pretty quickly by the legislature, so there is no long term harm.
Proud@15–
Methinks you have latched onto something significant.
LEFTIST PINHEADS are anti-Initiative because is it a check-and-balance on their LEFTIST PINHEADED Legislature and Governor.
These Initiatives show that while voters will support the Dems in Washington State…..voters will also not blindly support them.
LEFTIST PINHEADS get very frustrated with the Initiative process and, like K, tend to think that if people don’t blindly follow the LEFTIST PINHEAD agenda they are ignorant, naive or just plain dumb……hence arrogant, elitist snobs.
LEFTIST PINHEADS like K walk around with their nose high in the air cuz they have a guv’mint job or pension….look down their nose at voters who disagree with them and show us their:
A-cademic
S-nort
S-neer
Goldy amd k rail against initiatives because these are “ruled by powerful special interests” but ignore the fact that the legislature (both parties) is also ruled by these same interests. So WTF, you have a problem with one process (initiatives) even though it is the public’s last chance to counter balance the other (special interests high jacking our republican form of governing)?.
You “progressives” are so full of crap it makes my head spin. Naturally Goldy twists things out of context in the post. Try harder, Goldy, your point is lost in admitted bias: you support initiatives that you agree with (I 901) and detest the rest. That’s not a very “progressive” attitude, seems rather selfish to me.
If you “progressives” had any scruples you would be YES on I 912 because I 912 makes our state tax system LESS REGRESSIVE. Or do you only care about regressive taxes when convenient to your agenda?
oops sorry, said “progressive” bot should have said “LEFTIST PINHEAD.”
HELLCAT@8
But you dont understand, most Republicans start off as Democrats, much like a puppy cannot see when he is born. Once his eyes open he becomes a Republican, the problem is we have many Democrats with their heads up their asses and they still cannot see!
zip–
Excellent point about GasTaxes being about as REGRESSIVE as they come. People in lower income brackets generally have to commute to where they work. Families are always on the go carting around kids.
Goldy and all these LEFTIST PINHEADS have totally ignored the REGRESSIVE nature of this GasTax increase while continually waving the banner of “LOOK AT ME I’M SPECIAL>>>I”M A PROGRESSIVE”
YIPPPPPPPPEEEEEEEEE”.
It’s pure bullshit…obviously BY THEIR REGRESSIVE ACTIONS!
Somehow these LEFTIST PINHEADS will try and convince themselves and poor people that another 9-1/2 cents/gallon is good for them and not REGRESSIVE> Gold luck Assholes!
Swiftboat vets…
“It ain’t the 1880’s anymore, let’s dump initiatives”
Classic lefty mantra, life complicated, now, so lets dump 2nd amendment, 1st amendment, probably others. Convert “no restriction of religion” to “no public expression” (ron sims?)
I’d argue values, principles are the same now, as with Jefferson, Paine, Paul, Socrates, etc…
It’s that living breathing morphing to fit their agenda Constitution, dontcha know!
Good grief.
Cynical, Righton, & ProudAss: Recently, when I was in California; Mark Leno, you know the gay activist from SF who tried to sneak a gay marriage amendment recently killed by Arnold, complained in the newspapers that the people put them into power so the Initiative process needs to be banned because it put shackles on his ability to legislate. The problem discussed was he trying to shove his SF based political agenda over the whole state and people said no way!!! Google +Mark +Leno +Gay +marriage +initiative. LEFTIST PINHEADS want to control every aspect of your life. So when the Louisiana LEFTIST PINHEADS wanted to purchase guns to protect themselves from looters, they had to wait 15 days for background checks and many were pissed. Google that also LEFTIST PINHEADS.
Now you all know that those looters waited the 15 days to get their guns? They just started earlier in the process. NOT!!!
Ivan: Too bad you slept through your civics classes. MTR has hit the nail right on the head. Good job MTR!!! LEFTIST PINHEADS don’ like power flowing from the people. They think once elected they own the power.
guns are penis extensions for little boys who never grew up.
“Look at ME, I’m a real boy!” haha
say bye-bye ‘Pubes.
And this from a guy that calls himself Axl-Rod.
Right.
Zip @19,
Actually, I’m uncomfortable supporting any initiative, and I’ve made that clear again and again and again. But I live in the real world, and so I have started voting for some of the ones I agree with. But I think 901 is a very different kind of initiative than 330 or 336.
901 is a simple, blunt policy choice: do you want smoke free bars and restaurants? Yes… there are economic consequences that need to be considered, but the legislation itself is quite simple.
330 and 336 are entirely different beasts. They make various modifications to a medical malpractice and tort system that few layman really understand. Even if you accept the stated policy goals, it’s hard to determine whether either of these initiatives will achieve them. That’s why I’m voting against 336, even though I somewhat support what it claims it is trying to do.
On the other hand, 901 bans smoking in public places. What’s not to understand?
Let there be no doubt that the main proponents and benificiaries of I-330 are the insurance companies.
Hmm let me see…last time a family memebr had to use her insurance she had to sue her own provider to get them to pay her medical bills. Insurance companies suck.
News Flash:
the Bush-dolt, that famous hater of attorneys, justice and the right to a defense has nominated guess what for the Supreme Court? a Lawyer.
haha these guys are just so incredible.
Bush-dolt: u so funny.
So you think he should nominate…
a professional clown?
an ice cream vendor?
an actor?
a masseuse?
a coal miner?
a blogger?
Really A-nimrod, sometimes you would be better served by keeping your thoughts to yourself.
And for the record, I am, so far, distinctly unimpressed and disappointed by this nominee.
The initiative process is hardly a fundamental component of our democracy. The nation’s founders, aware of the perils of direct democracy, rejected any form of direct democracy in formulating a representative form of government. Hence, the federal system has no provision for initiatives. Some states, less than half, provide for some form of an initiative process. I-330 provides an excellent example of the hazards of government by initiative. The I-330 campaign makes no effort to educate the electorate. Rather, its ads simply rely on the usual misleading mantras of Republicans: “jackpot verdicts”, “greedy trial lawyers”, “doctors are leaving the state.” The reality is that I-330 would do absolutely nothing to reduce malpractice premiums. And, in any event, Washington is gaining doctors, trial lawyers are certainly no more greedy than insurers, doctors, or anyone else for that matter, and jackpot verdicts happen too rarely, if ever, in this state to justify restricting our constitutional right to a jury trial, which is precisely what I-330 does.
Goldy@30—
People overwhelmingly vote NO or don’t vote at all on Initiatives they don’t understand. It’s up to proponents and opponents to reach out and educate/influence voters. If the Initiative is shown to be horrible with terrible consequences, it will go DOWN. But the undecideds who do not understand the Initiative definitely lean to NO!!!!
Yes on Initiatives will have a tougher and tougher row to hoe….if elected officials are responsible and don’t just “ram home” Legislation like the GasTax.
The GasTax is precisely why we MUST retain the power of Initiative. If Elected Officals get that money and start underfunded projects, future elected officials are stuck taxing further for cost overruns. Comprende??? Need public buy-in BEFORE ramming it home!!! You do that with a public vote.
Well, Goldy: instead of making fun of your old buddy Timmy the watch-salesman, if you’re so fucking smart and have all the answers to everything in the universe, then I’d like to see you get off your ass and create some initiative. And a real one this time, not some bullshit one calling that same watch-salesman names. Thanks. And I-901 is bullshit. ‘Nuff said.
Mark the Idiot @1
Applying the same logic to financial services … we don’t need bankers, stockbrokers, or commodity traders, because Joe Lunchbucket can run the economy better than these guys.
High medical malpractice premiums are NOT caused by lawsuits. Large judgments against doctors are exceedingly rare. Malpractice claims account for less than 1/2 of one percent of U.S. health costs. High insurance premiums are caused by lower investment returns. When insurance companies can’t make money in investment markets, they have to make their money by raising premiums. Period.
Roger Rabbit is not dead, missing in action, or AWOL. RR is on vacation! RR is taking the garden tour (again) — YUMMY!! Every hardworking bunny deserves a vacation. Roger Rabbit will return to HorsesAss later this week.
Again Roger the Lawsuit Dodger is FOS. Read this Roger.
http://www.thedoctors.com/news.....medmal.asp
or this Roger:
http://www.acr.org/s_acr/sec_h.....;DID=19433
or this Roger:
http://www.nejmjobs.org/rpt/rpt_article_27.asp
Man for a gov’t hack lawyer, you sure are the hack.
Figures the cheep Ass filter would eat my Malpractice links for Roger’s newest lie!!!
If Goldy releases my links they show the GAO doing a study where lawsuit payouts are the largest reason the premiums went up. Another Rabbit lie debunked.
Roger I wait for your wonderful response to #41.
Pud @ several:
Roger’s numbers are a bit off, but the numbers we use at work for calculating costs in medical practices put the cost of lawsuits industry-wide at about 2% of revenue. We are not in the policy bidness, but in the rather boring business of making money.
The problem is that this is one of these cases where an innocuous-looking statistic. The average doc is not subject to giving up 2% of her or his income over the course of a career. Most docs never see a lawsuit, while if you are on the receiving end of one, it’s life-changingly expensive.
So, for the same reason as you get health insurance (it’s for pregnancy, terminal cancer, and other life changing shit, not for doctor’s visits to treat the sniffles), or car insurance, doctors get malpractice insurance.
The ACR article you referred to talks about the cost of malpractice insurance (it’s very high in some professions in some areas), but not about the source of those costs except in the most abstract terms.
The NEJM jobs site indicated some truth to the Rabbit’s claims. Read it again before assuming that it supports your point of view.
The first article is published by an insurance company. Insurance companies, like any other business, want to control costs. A cap on lawsuits controls costs.
As long as we’re throwing links around, here’s one to look at:
http://www.consumerwatchdog.or.....p/1008.pdf
More later…
Pud,
Roger isn’t responding, but I will.
Roger’s numbers are a little off, but not by much. I am in the healthcare business (in software), and our internal numbers put the costs of lawsuits industry-wide at about 2% of gross revenue.
We are in the boring business of making money in healthcare. As a company, we do not have a policy axe to grind on either lawsuits, insurance reform, single-payer, or any of the other healthcare “hot buttons” you hear about all the time. As such, I consider that number to be as accurate as most of the numbers that get tossed around on HA.
Now, here is one of these things where an innocuous number can hide some nasty stuff behind it.
2% industrywide is a pretty small number. But healthcare is not a monolithic industry. Family docs usually are not the target of lawsuits. As such, their risks are low(er) as are their premiums. Late-term caregivers (i.e. oncology and hospice care) are subject to an inordinate number of suits, and so on.
(that ends my professional analysis. What follows is me talking off the top of my head. These opinions are not endorsed by my employer, the docs that founded this company, or any other reputable organization).
On the policy side, California instituted malractice caps in 1975. Google on “MICRA” or “California Malpractice caps” and you’ll get some interesting stuff on that. The long and short is that malpractice caps did not do much to curb insurance rates. Insurance reform did, but that didn’t come until many years later.
More to the point, very few people are concerned by malpractice insurance per se. Everyone is concerned by the cost of medical care in the US. You see your doc’s bill and you think “One way or another, I’m paying for this! Where in the fuck is the money going?”
There isn’t a single good answer for this. The short answer is the medical industry has nothing to do with “market forces”. The medical industry is run by doctors. Doctors not only do services, which is fine, but they are also the primary stakeholders in care facilities and the primary makers of business decisions. As a rule, docs are pretty lousy business people. (there are always exceptions to this rule).
Medical facilties lose 15-20% of their revenue due to misbilling and other internal errors, they frequently have information flows that are right out of Charles Dickens, and a number of other things that would not be tolerated in any real business larger than a convenience store, but are considered “industry standard” in the medical practice.
… and you won’t ever read that on the evening news…
JSA: You didn’t address the GAO or American College of Radiology study. The numbers are much higher. They totally disagree with Roger’s analysis and he knows it. It was another blatant attempt to slide something in and the poor bunny wabbit was caught with his floppy ears down! Hence, on this topic and a few others furry wabbit is full of shit!
Pud,
I did, but that message vanished into thin air.
The ACR simply cited “higher premium costs” but did not mention root causes.
I will look at the GAO report as time permits. I am a wee bit skeptical given the source. Insurance companies like caps on damages. It controls their primary operational cost. There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s good business practice. It’s just one of these things….
I have this love/hate relationship with litigation that comes with having spent a fair quantity of time in places where access to it is sharply curtailed.
Yes, the legal system in the United States is frequently abused by the undeserving. One of our docs refers to it as a “wealth redistribution scam”.
The problem is, while most doctors, and most businesses behave in an ethical manner, a few do not. Access to the legal process through the dreaded contingency system is one of the best ways for people with few resources of their own to take on oranizations who can otherwise outgun them.
You’ve been through Taipei. Ever notice that foul-smelling black ribbon of sludge that runs through town that they call the Tamshui river? One reason that pollution runs rampant there (other than Chinese apathy), is that there is no realistic remedy if someone does NOT behave in an ethical manner and decides to dump trash or pollution into the river. Chinese law, in its magnanimous equality, allows rich businessmen and ordinary people equal access to $300/hour attorneys. Go to court and you will be feeding your lawyers until the day a judgement comes. Becuase of this, ordinary people have no realistic access to the legal system. It is used for rich folk to beat up on their equals and people beneath them.
Some sort of tort reform would probably be a good thing, but my feeling on caps is about the same as Cynical’s feeling about rent control. It’s a crude solution, doesn’t bring costs down, and provides an impetus to “moral hazard” for the few bad apples who really are behaving unethically.
JSA: But only part of the river is like that. It’s cleaner in other areas. Yes, similar dumping occurs in many Asian cities except Singapore. I remember my first time to Penang, Melaysia. People dumping everything into the water. It was brown sludge.
Speaking of Taipei, I need some new motherboards! Thanks for reminding me. But it’s an expensive trip to just get some good computer junk!!!
pud,
No part of that river is swimable, drinkable, or capable of supporting living creatures. It’s just a question of whether the smell makes you hurl immediately (Taipei), or has just a slight overtone of heavy metals, petrochemical byproducts, and raw sewage (down by the beach at Tamshui). The Hsintien is swimable at times (I know, I’ve swum it!), but that runs from the mountains down into the Taipei basin. Near-zero population next to the river does wonders for its potability.
I am familiar with the fact that most of Asia is filthy. I pointed out Taipei in particular because it’s the place I’m most familiar with. The same problems exist elsewhere. Corrupt governments and hobbled legal systems.
You’re stuck with a choice between regulatory remedies and legal ones. If you blithely assume that most people will be honest most of the time (and they will), and do not provide a check for the few that aren’t, you wind up with Asia.
Singapore has an unusually muscular and efficient civil service. Besides, it’s easy to offshore dirtier businesses to Indonesia or Malaysia where the enforcement is more lax.
For mainboards, just hit Pricewatch. Guanghua market is a lot more fun, but you’ll spend more, even without the plane ticket.
WHAT HAPPENED? WE HAD THE REDNECKS FEELING APPROIATELY GUILTY ABOUT THEIR PREJUDICE NOW IT IS PC? I AM 55 AND HAVE BEEN THERE, IN RICHMOND VA I HAD EVERYONE FEELING THEIR SHAME AND NOW THEY FEEL JUSTIFIED. WE FAILED THEM BUT WE MUST SUCCEED.