Via the AP:
Twenty-seven people, including 18 children, have been killed in a shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in suburban Connecticut…
Via ABC:
One shooter is described as 24-years-old, armed with four weapons and wearing a bullet-proof vest, sources tell ABC News.
Clearly, something isn’t working. Perhaps it’s time we listen to the gun rights activists. To paraphrase Portland gun advocate Kirby Ellis’ words in response to the recent Portland-area mall shooting:
“By allowing kids to carry firearms it actually gives them a chance to protect themselves in ways…if the police are not available, or they could be moments away”
“In light of the recent school shooting in Connecticut, not allowing kids to carry weapons only puts our children more at risk.”
“With the policies in place that don’t allow students to carry firearms in school, the only thing they really could do is try to seek cover and wait for the police to get there.”
So it’s clear, then…it’s absolutely the only conceivable thing that could be done to stop these tragedies….
Repeating what I said downstairs
I’d love to read someone who thinks the most important part of the 2nd Amendment is “shall not be infringed” tell us how they’d explain this to those children, who shall never forget this day, all about how that phrase justifies the death of their schoolmates.
And if they feel up to it, how to explain the risk of random execution to any elementary school child.
And Kirby Ellis obviously requires serious mental health treatment.
Republican WINGNUTS are killing you … and your children
Sweeping changes in Michigan’s concealed handgun law go beyond allowing weapons in ‘gun free zones’
The state House on Thursday passed the bill 68-41 and sent it to Gov. Rick Snyder, one of many laws sped through a lame-duck session that did not conclude until early Friday morning.
Aside from allowing concealed pistols in schools and other places, a number of measures are aimed at streamlining a permit process critics say remains far from uniform statewide.
[snip]
Most of the attention on the new bill has focused on provisions allowing hidden handguns in places where they are now forbidden, such as schools, churches and large entertainment venues.
The new law continues the minimum eight hours of training required to obtain a concealed pistol license. But effective May 1, it boosts firing-range requirements from 30 rounds to 98. Those who complete an additional eight hours of training and another 94 rounds on the firing range are eligible to carry in so-called gun-free zones.
Let me get his straight, the gun advocate you mentioned, says the kids should have been armed? Did he not notice that this was an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?
I am for the 2nd Amendment myself, but am also one who believes that there should be reasonable restrictions, including not haviing kids armed, and some weaponry should be out of civilian hands, (Like Infantry Automatic Rifles, Squad Automatic Weapons, and machine guns), or at least restricted.
Remember when Representative Giffords was shot? There was somebody there, with a concealed weapon, drew his own gun, but then put it away without shooting. Turned out, he almost shot the person who had taken the gun away from the shooter.
EvergreenRailfan,
“Let me get his straight, the gun advocate you mentioned, says the kids should have been armed? Did he not notice that this was an ELEMENTARY SCHOOL?”
Nope. He was referring to the Portland shooting. I paraphrased what he said, and updated it for the Connecticut context.
Okay, the idea that elementary school students should all be armed against the possibility of a random shooter is patently ridiculous, as we all know. Just think of all the schoolyard scuffles which might get elevated to gunplay – aside from the mere accidental incidents!
But another “compromise” gun proponants advance is that the teachers and the administrators should be armed.
Let’s think about that for a moment. The shooter was wearing body armor. How many teachers/administrators would have sufficient skills, in the context of an adrenalen-fueled situation, to successfully make a head shot? Lots of soldiers and cops can’t do that – which is why they are told to aim for the “body mass”.
Secondly, when the police arrive, knowing little other than that there is a shooting, having civilians with guns raises the possibility (probability) that the teachers & administrators will be shot by the police. This increases if smoke/tear gas is added to the mix.
Hey, I learned to shoot by age 8, and was involved in shooting competitions for several years thereafter. I know a few things about guns, and I’m not for outlawing all guns. But how many ways can we say that this is a bad idea?
5)
Sorry about that. I usually take a second look before commenting. Although, I am sure the NRA is probably already working on a statement like the paraphrasing you made. Unfortunately, I am almost used to that.
EvergreenRailfan,
Yup…sarcasm is tough. It’s too easy to confuse with actual statements coming from the right wing loony brigade.
I am so fucking sick of this shit..
Note to the asshats among us:
Lets review the reasons for owning a firearm, and whether or not it applies to automatic (or semi-automatic rifles) and handguns.
1. Target Shooting. A bolt-action rifle is best for this sport, automatic weapons just draw you off-target.
2. Hunting. If you can’t drop your kill with one shot, you have no business hunting. It’s all part of the challenge, to get close enough to make a clean kill. Any fool can hit a target with an automatic rifle and a long clip.
3. Home Defense. A double 12 guage works best here. Lots of stopping power, and the rounds are less likely to go through the walls and hit your neighbors in their bedroom.
4. Personal Defense. The gun is more likely to be taken away from you than it is for you to be able to draw, aim, and shoot. Even if succeed in getting your gun out of your holster/pants/purse, the adrenalin rush of a firefight makes it very unlikely you will hit a target. After all, there are videos of trained police officers unloading a clip at a suspect 15 feet away and missing entirely. And in a serial shooting case, recent shooters are wearing body armor.
5. “Survivalist” mode. This is what they are really defending. They think that the President is the Antichrist who will turn the U.S. over to the U.N., and they will have to retreat to the mountains to avoid taking the “Mark of the Beast”, and defend themselves there. A related theme is to create a militia to support various secession movements.
Look, I don’t care how many firearms you have, they aren’t going to help much against tanks, artillary, drones, and air strikes. Their collection of semi-auto rifles, converted to full automatic, will be useless against a Napalm strike. And the romantic notion of a hidden fortress in the mountains is laughable in light of current infrared binocular systems used from aircraft.
It’s time to amend either the composition of the Supreme Court or the Second Amendment.
Yes and a Knife-wielding man injures 22 children in China
http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-.....2318.story
So let’s be sure while we are at it we take knives and axes and picks and shovels and Ice Picks, razors, BBQ tools etc while we are at it! A crazed slasher with a samurai sword can do as much damage as any gun weilding idiot!
@11 Roger,
Our 2nd Amendment reads:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
I understand how emphasis can be placed on one or the other two clauses in that sentence, even though I would not agree with reading it that way.
I don’t know that we need to amend the Constitution.
I do know that every right comes with responsibilities which constrain the right.
I think it is far past time we, as a wanna be civil society (a.k.a. “free state”), discuss the responsibilities of citizens and governments to maintain any right to keep and bear arms.
I don’t know how many useless executions (of CHILDREN!) it will take, but it is far past time.
Eleven facts about guns and mass shootings in the United States
good job YLB,..way to lowbrow a tragedy. 20 kindegartners are dead and all YLB can think of is “I can do a gotcha!”
you arent even worth beating the shit out of.
back to the subject at hand….
the real question is what the hell is compelling people to do this shit.
10) California has some of the toughest regulations on assault rifles, but even they have loopholes. One is, detached magazines are illegal, but that has only seen manufacturers find a way around it, just need a screwdriver or even another bullet to remove the magazine to reload.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.....let_Button
Except for maybe competitive target shooting, just the fact one owns one, or maybe big game hunting(and it is a stretch), I don’t know why a civilian would want a .50 Rifle. At least the Raufoss cartridge(I believe that is the one that is Depleted Uranium, Armored Piercing, Incendiary) should be out of civilian hands, as it is the most dangerous. California banned .50 caliber rifles, but there was a loophole in that, it specifically banned rifles chambered for the .50 BMG round, manufacturers came up with something as good, including Barrett( their .416 round).
I heard somewhere a while back, that one of our local police department SWAT Teams has a couple of those rifles.
Has terrorism been ruled out? They just said on NBC the shooter was “carrying someone else’s ID.” So it’s not clear who the shooter was, or what his motive was. Could this be a terrorist act?
tell that to the taliban or iraqi insurgents…seemed/s to work pretty well for them….
I dont think so Roger…one brother may have had the other brother’s ID?? seems like thats what I am hearing…
@17 A Pakistan sanctuary and willingness of suicidally fanatical fighters to take 100% casualties works a lot better. It also helps to live in a culture where the average female bears 10 children to keep your ranks supplied with cannon fodder.
@14 Hasn’t the gun-loving right has asked for it by embracing an untenable and indefensible position on gun access? I don’t see how blame for these tragedies can be laid on those who argue for reasonable gun regulation.
You cannot take the Madman out of the Madman.. You can start banning all you want, but the Madman will still win.
It’s unfortunate that all your attention is always the Gun, when the Madman is the real issue. It shows how simplistic the answer seems. But
They are generally far sicker, brighter and more creative than anyone imagines.
It isn’t just guns, though. As I have argued for years, it is our culture of violent movies and video games that creates the mind capable of such acts by depersonalizing and desensitizing the very act of taking human life. It’s bad enough that our military creates killers and then dumps them back into society, but for several generations now, our entertainment industry has been turning children into killers from the moment they’re born.
@21 Agreed. In recent years it’s become even worse, as the suits who run Hollywood have decided that digital gore is so much more cost-effective than decent acting or a good script.
David Frum says it like it is
Every Day is the Day to Talk About Gun Control
There’s really not too much that I can say Frum and I totally agree upon. Maybe this is it.
Go read the whole thing.
There’s something seriously wrong with a culture which thinks it’s OK for children to watch acts of violence, but it isn’t OK for those same children to see a woman’s nipple. Sorry, it’s the violence that’s harmful to kids, not the nipple.
It’s way past time for our country to have a frank, open, and honest conversation about cultural violence (gun fetish’s, violence in video games, music and popular culture, sexual violence toward women and people who excuse/deny it exists) & mental heath care (we need better quality care, 100% access, and removal of stigmas around mental illness). We need to talk about income inequality and the lack of a bright future for many in America as well.
And, yes, we need to talk about gun laws. But, without the larger, broader discussion we will still be left with a violent culture, with the mentally ill going untreated, and with women in abusive relationship and a rate of violence towards women that’s disturbingly high.
There’s many pieces to this puzzle beyond simply access to firearms and we need to talk about all the pieces, not just guns.
You reap what you sow asshat…
You moved to the ‘burbs to isolate yourself from people you hate.. Well the madness of gun fetishism can only follow fools like you.
Still scared?
Moron.
Michael & Roger,
Yes, there’s is more than just an unprecedented amount of well designed killing devices (300 million) in the hands of so many which leads to such a tragic and unexplainable act of violence.
The reason we don’t talk about it, seriously, is because there is ONE political party which routinely uses its political and economic power to prevent such discussion.
Today’s execution of children in Connecticut is only a crystalline tragic moment of the results of 30 years of accepting as reasonable a political philosophy which is at odds with the principle of government of the people, by the people, for the people.
@26
stay classy there YLB.
20 kids are dead and all YLB cares about “gotchas”
notice YLB has said nothing about what a tragedy it is….
getting to the subject, again….@21 – what you say has a lot of truth in it Roger. Overt violence in our media and a loss of any moral compass in our society, and this is the kind of behavior we can expect more and more of I guess.
the subject of gun control is a red herring for the simple minded to chase – it wont fix anything…..the problem is behavior and understanding how people can do such terrible acts.
The Onion, rapidly showing itself to be one of our nation’s best journalistic enterprises, does it again.
Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This
It’s “funny” because it is exactly what the NRA and its Republican supplicants truly believe.
28 – Kinda early to be hittin the sauce.. And at home too.. What an example you’re setting.
YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW PERIOD..
And stop lying.. That’s sets a bad example too.. Not that you care.
@27
It’s an 80%-20%, thing. Mostly it’s the right in this country refusing to discuss living in a modern society where all people are equal and there are reasonable limits on things like firearms. But, the Democrats haven’t done much on mental health, they haven’t done much to make sure working class kids have a bright future, & the left has fought against limits on violence on video games and in the media.
What we need to do now is have that conversation that larger conversation and show anyone who want to black that conversation from happening the door.
This is about way more than just access to guns,
Oops typo’s galore.
What we need to do now is have that larger conversation and show anyone who wants to block that conversation from happening the door.
This is about way more than just access to guns.
@31 Michael,
Historically the Democratic party has done quite a lot on mental health.
The Republican party has a bit of a different history when it comes to mental health.
Ronald Reagan and the Commitment of the Mentally Ill: Capital, Interest Groups, and the Eclipse of Social Policy
@31 Michael,
and adding to the already too long comment @33, the best and most economic remedy to mental health care is National Health Insurance. The Affordable Care Act (a.k.a. ObamaCare) took a small (Heritage Foundation!) step towards that end, and what was the Republican party’s reaction to it?
http://www.nydailynews.com/new.....-1.1220230
@35 And that proves what? That our kids are better off if we let our crazies have guns so they won’t resort to knives?
If you posted them in defense of the rightwing’s ideology of easy access to guns, you’re the dumbest turd ever to spit out of a monkey’s ass.
@36 No, not in defense of anything. Evil crazy people will kill with whatever they can get their hands on, I actaully believe that buying a gun needs to be tied to very strict mental-health/deep-background checks, and that it needs to be far easier to commit mentally-ill people.
From Mediaite:
” Mike Huckabee said that we shouldn’t be surprised that schools have become a place of carnage after Americans have rejected teaching about life and responsibility by “removing God from our schools.”
God has never been part of our schools, unless of course you went to a wingnut school.
@33,34
Like I said before it’s an 80-20 thing. The problem is overwhelming the political right in America, but I don’t think you can absolve the left of all blame.
We need a nation wide Laura’s Law. I really hate saying that. But we do need it.
Should we also limit the government’s ability to own firearms?
@39 Michael,
The “left” and the Democratic party are not the same thing. You can find Democratic politicians who are or were not for National Health Insurance, but I challenge you to find someone of “the left” who is not for it.
Alternatively, find me a Republican for National Health Insurance.
@41 Politically Incorrect,
We already do limit our government’s ability to keep and bear arms (e.g. New START, Seabed Treaty, Chemical Weapons Convention…)
Bogart # 14: I was waiting for it, and right on cue, Bogart responds:
DING DING DING DING! We have a winner!
It’s just one of the typical right-wing responses to a serious topic. First, call the other side names. Then, as in this example, accuse the other side of insensitivity for daring to discuss the larger issue, instead of burying it until it fades from memory.
It’s their only way to defend the indefensible.
@44 rhp6033,
It’s their only way to defend the indefensible.
It may not be their only way, but slinging bullshit has been very effective … at making us all worse off, hasn’t it?
American Exceptionalism: The Shootings Will Go On
@42
My bad, I meant Democratic party folks and electeds.
So where are all those right-to-lifers when we need them to come forward?
@47 Michael,
Fair enough, but you’ve missed my larger point.
Sure, some Democrats are culpable for failing to support our country’s need for adequate mental health care.
But the larger point is that (at least in the past 4 years) ALL elected Republicans will fight tooth and nail to prevent us from caring for our own.
ALL.
Okay Darryl — just how do you consider your taking political license with Kirby Ellis’ statement to be a PARAPHRASE?
a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.
It is excellent for SARCASM, and is certainly an attempt at ANALOGY (whether or not such analogy is proper, is a legitimate arena for debate).
But Ellis was actually saying that shopping mall customers — by clear implication adults who are lawfully allowed to carry firearms in general under Oregon law — should be able to carry their firearms in shopping malls as well. (Most shopping malls are private property, and have signs at the entrances with a dozen or more rules — including prohibitions on having firearms, and requirements to wear shoes and shirts for that matter.)
Ellis believes that such firearms restrictions prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves against crazed shooters, etc. in shopping malls. By contrast, mall owners see firearms restrictions as more beneficial, since they want to discourage thugs who might be armed, and also worry that otherwise law-abiding citizens might get angry or overreact at times …
I don’t know whether Ellis believes children should be able to carry firearms, or whether he believes firearms should be carried in public schools at all. But Ellis certainly didn’t say that in the article you linked, and you have gotten a lot of people to believe that Ellis basically said elementary school students should be allowed to carry firearms.
Where’s the asswipe troll?
Could he have finally remembered..
That’s he’s supposed be gone from this “dead place”?
By now?
Poor troll – just can’t stay away.. Too addicted to hating others. Even puddyidiot is too scarce these days.. After his hated “community organizer” prevailed against billions of right wing money he can’t muster the nerve to keep on selling right wing bullshit.
Oh well..
If you can type and click, at least do one small thing about this problem today.
Sign the White House Petition on gun control.
Immediately address the issue of gun control through the introduction of legislation in Congress.
bluestater @48
Good point, just like the marriage defenders when celebrities get divorced. Although as we have seen, Huckabee has already weighed in. Don’t know about other Right to Lifers.
@49
No, I got that and I agree with you.
clueless response, as expected, by RHP.
@28 Bullshit. Double bullshit.
We’re going to have this conversation about how gun-nut policies enable these tragedies, and if gun nuts don’t like it, they can go to hell.
The rest of us have had enough, and I hope this incident proves to be the tipping point that kicks the stool from under the rightards’ gun fetishism.
@29 They’ll sing a different tune when it’s their first-grader who is lying dead in a pool of blood in a grade-school corridor with his/her brain material splattered on the wall.
@37 You certainly didn’t make that clear @35.
@56
news is reporting that the deceased mom was the one who bought the firearms – dont know how true that is, but how do you keep a law-abiding 50+ mom and teacher from purchasing a weapon? is she a threat?
The fact is this: Any major change to gun laws is going to have to come from a constitutional amendment….good luck with that, because it will never happen….there arent enough politicians with enough ballzack to do that – hell, they cant even put together a balanced budget, much less altering the constitution.
there are some fucked up twisted people out there – time to find out why there are so many.
@38 So Huckabee thinks letting mentally ill people have easy access to guns won’t be a problem if we have school prayer?
Does anyone need to ask why Democrats think Republicans are stupid jackasses?
@41 What’s your point? Do you have one?
@48 According to their thinking, your right to life ends the moment you’re born. From then on you’re one of two things (or perhaps both): (a) collateral damage (b) cannon fodder.
@60 Perhaps Huckabee thinks God allowed it to happen as punishment for removing Him from schools.
@60 Roger,
Does anyone need to ask why Democrats think Republicans are stupid jackasses?
I think the time has come and gone trying to prove most Republicans and their policies are teh stoopid.
It’s a given. The evidence is overwhelming. If we can’t get Republicans to stipulate they are teh stoopid, can we at least get them to stipulate that we will judge them as stupid irrational wingnuts until they prove otherwise?
And F*ck Huckabee! He doesn’t even know his GD bible. Matthew 18:20.
Over at red state, they have a lead article that boils down to “this wouldn’t happen if American was just Christian and it’s only happening because American has drifted so far away from God.”
And the comments are decidedly calling him wrong headed.
And they banned the guy who posted that last piece.
@59 “Any major change to gun laws is going to have to come from a constitutional amendment….good luck with that, because it will never happen….”
First of all, I’m not sure an amendment is required; replacing a couple of Supreme Court judges might be sufficient.
Secondly, today’s events (in conjunction with all those of hte past) strongly argue that a constitutional amendment is overdue, if that’s what it takes to get guns out of the hands of people who shouldn’t have them. In which case, every adult American with voting rights should strongly support such an amendment, and there’s something seriously wrong with those who won’t.
Third, if we can’t pass the amendments/laws necessary to prevent this kind of carnage in the future, then we should consider enacting another constitutional amendment that would take the right to vote away from anyone who opposes the passage of such amendments/laws. Heh – just kidding, that’s a liberal joke.
LOL!!!
A Guide to Mass Shootings in America
Heh.. Haven’t looked too closely but I don’t see Seattle on that list..
Sure see a lot of ‘burby type places though..
Kind of places that asshats adore.
Look in the mirror jerkus!
And in free rep, they are saying nasty stuff like:
It’s obviously a conspiracy by the left to make people go insane so the left can enact gun control.
@59
“how do you keep a law-abiding 50+ mom and teacher from purchasing a weapon?”
Not that preventing the woman is an answer to gun violence, but to answer your question – Education. Consistent, constant, accurate education about the deadly nature of guns.
@66
good luck with that.
ummmmmm, ok. but what if she still wants one?
@71, she gets one. We’re never going to eliminate gun violence, but we can damn sure do a whole lot better than we’re doing.
@72
on that we agree.
Well, Washington’s own and Chairwoman of the House Republican Conference, Cathy McMorris Rodgers (R-WA05) has a response to the unprovoked execution of 20 children today
Cathy McMorris Rodgers: ‘We have to be careful’ about new gun laws
Because 20 children were murdered today in Connecticut because we’ve not been careful enough about suggesting new gun laws.
Republicans, making stoopid look easy – daily.
Politicians are not smart people…thats why they are politicians.
LOL!! And right wing billionaires are – like Sheldon Adelson spending 100 million and losing 99 percent of it.
Heh.. How’d that “Obama is another Hoover” bullshit work out for you? The former “community organizer” sure put to shame all those right wing billions wasted on Romney..
Hoover served only one term stupid.
@59
That seems to be the case.
Like a lot of folks in America, she got killed with her own gun.
I wouldn’t want to. She’s a law-abiding person who’s of legal age to own a gun. But, it’s also turning out that she had a son with a history of mental illness. Why anyone would have a gun where their mentally ill kid could get ahold of it is beyond me.
Watched some of the TV news tonight. Heard lots and lots of comments about how we need to do a better job on treating mental illness and on keeping guns out of the hand of the mentally ill. I that sounded encouraging.
I could only make it a couple minutes into this nonsense.
Please do me and the world a favor and tell this idiot to fuck off.
It’s too funny (and sad) to see the asshat troll, little maxee wankatansky feign concern for child victims of gun violence:
what kind of sick parents send their kids to be brainwashed at a “youth political camp”? I didnt even think such things existed….its almost like a partisan lemming factory.
Wow this is how little maxee shows “concern” for something like 69 murdered kids before they could be turned into “partisan lemmings”.
I bet he’s really “concerned” about these kids from this “partisan lemming factory” too..
I think I’m going to shut down my computer and just leave it off for a day or two. I’ve seen enough.
Take care everyone.
Oh let’s not forget that according to little maxee wankatanksy that folks who raise their kids in Seattle and cities like it are guilty of “child abuse”..
Oh and parents who raised their kids in Newtown, CT are guilty of what exactly?
This isn’t just about guns.
The NRA is an integral part of the Conservative ‘movement’ and does FAR more than advocate for gun rights.
Conservatives are more fear-motivated than liberals, and the right has discovered that a large slice of their base is able to be motivated over fear of their guns being taken away. There is a significant slice of America that believes that ‘others’ are coming to take their stuff, and this includes the government. A bunker mentality has been stoked, the fear-driven right wing id has been tickled, and the notion that in illegitimate government is coming to confiscate your ‘stuff’ and give it to undeserving blacks/Mexicans/unionists/elite gay liberals/uppity women/etc is central to the fear-stoking.
The success of the NRA has been singular, all the pools of blood across this country notwithstanding, but it’s not really about the guns. It’s about getting the fear-motivated gun owners to hate ‘liberals’ and hate government and vote for Republicans – so they can effect more upward transfer of wealth to fewer hands.
This is about politics, and about society, but it boils down to political power, and money, of course.
Two approaches:
1. Universal access to health care, including comprehensive mental health care.
2. Gun laws comparable in scope and severity with other industrialized/wealthy nations.
This is interesting…
Gun ownership rates. US unambiguously at the top.
Notable for our jackboot/government-fearing/survivalist bunker-dwellers: Tunisia, in which a popular uprising just recently overthrew the government, has the lowest rate, due to severe restrictions on gun ownership.