In the best of all possible worlds, state taxpayers would invest lavishly in expanding access to quality higher education in Washington state. But this isn’t the best of all possible worlds, and with an $8 billion revenue shortfall looming, even modest tax increases aren’t going to spare our state college and university system from devastating cuts.
But there is a rational, well-tested policy solution that would help alleviate some of the immediate pain, enabling state colleges and universities to make do with less while providing more access to more students than currently possible. It is a policy currently in place at nearly every private college and university in the nation, and at public institutions in Texas, Ohio, Virginia and other states. And it is a policy that has been proposed by both liberal bloggers like me, and by Republican state legislators:
Dramatically raise tuition while shifting the bulk of state funding from the current flat, per-student subsidy to a means-tested, financial aid model.
Those students and families who can afford to pay the full cost of tuition, will. Those who cannot, will have the higher costs offset through grants and loans, proportionate to their needs, as long as they maintain academic standing. The end result would be to increase tuition revenues without increasing the financial burden on students from low and middle income families.
Yes, this is a form of rationing, but we are already rationing higher education by reducing the number of available seats, increasing class sizes, and eliminating many academic options. In education as in everything else, you get what you pay for, and if we buy ourselves a second-rate higher education system our children will ultimately inherit a second-rate economy.
So in the midst of this unprecedented budget crisis, when steep cuts to higher education funding are all but inevitable, the time has come for legislators in both parties to brave the public’s understandable, but knee-jerk, revulsion to tuition increases, and move to a financial model that guarantees the greatest access to the best higher education system the state can afford to provide.
DISCLAIMER:
This isn’t the first time I’ve advocated for the high tuition/high financial aid model. In fact, I first hawked this proposal back in July of 2004, and at least four times since: here, here, here and here. So once again it is only fair to disclose that my own GET investment for my daughter (four years of tuition and fees purchased at 2002 prices) insulates us from rising tuition costs, regardless of means. In fact, dramatically higher tuition could prove a windfall should my daughter choose to go to a private or out of state school. Just thought you should know.
And yes, I know that this proposal would create huge challenges for WA’s GET program, as it did in other states that allowed tuition rates to rise dramatically, leaving it underfunded in the short term. But these are challenges other GET programs have managed to overcome.
It won’t happen Goldy because the GOP doesn’t want ANYONE to go to college. Every single remotely credible survey shows that the more education you have – the more likely you are to vote for Democrats. The cowards in the GOP know that the more information and education we have, the less likely we are to let them bullshit their way to destroying us.
Actually Goldy, you missed one huge precusor step…going in with a cleaver and carving all the pork out of the Higher Ed System….line by line.
Seattle Jew can start the list.
It is totally out of control….starting with the Administration salaries, benefits and overhead. It’s ridiculous. Way to many upper level Bureaucrats at each State Funded college.
Go in and make the system as cost-effective as possible and see where you are at.
Goldy, you are “presuming” the system is currently operating at optimum efficency.
How do you come to that conclusion???
ByeByeGoober–
Gimmee a break. How do you explain the demographics of the last election? You are blowing shit outta yer piehole again loser.
Obama got all the uneduated boneheads who bought the lies that Obama would give them lots of free stuff…which ain’t gonna happen.
Those students and families who can afford to pay the full cost of tuition, will. Those who cannot, will have the higher costs offset through grants and loans, proportionate to their needs, as long as they maintain academic standing.
———-
Yes, this is the private school model. The downside is students and/or parents are saddled with big loans that grow bigger each year as the schools raise tuition. Even in this economic environment, private schools raised their tuition for 2009-2010, knowing students will rely on loans.
And by the time students leave school: many are saddled with debt that make specialized training at the graduate/professional level very difficult. Your plan would make this worse. I believe the focus should be on costs.
Whether this is a “rational, well-tested policy solution” is a matter of great debate.
If only rich white evil republican CEOs wouldn’t need to make obscene profits off of education, then everybody could afford a college degree.
In your case the GOP should have at least let you attend elementary school
Exactly. Remotely credible.
Is this one of those educated voters?
Goldy: You don’t have college age kids. Imagine telling them they have to go to community college because the parents cannot afford UW. Increasing financial aid leaves out a lot of middle income people whose only recourse in tough economic times is PUBLIC schools – because the privates are too expensive.
Of course, community colleges are being cut to the bone too – just as more people are going back for worker retraining.
the whole system is a mess – and we are still spending more per capita on prisons and defense than any other country in the world.
Less for education and more for prisons and defense….makes a lot of sense (if you are an idiot republican).
Oh, here is the latest republican liar:
Pete Sessions (his Daddy was a liar too) – lying about not knowing Stanford (They just put up pictures of Sessions with Stanford on a junket to the Bahamas, see TPM).
Why is it that republicans habitually lie? Of course Sessions is the chair of the republican national congressional election campaign (RNCC). As usual, the republicans in charge of things are liars and crooks.
@7: Stamm (the idiot) asks:
Is this one of those educated voters?
I ask – how did Stamm ever get out of third grade? With your lack of logic Stamm and your inability to see your own hypocrisy, you are a joke.
Really, you have no business criticizing the intellectual capacity of anyone – given all the BS you spout.
Tell us, oh Stamm, what elementary school did you flunk out of?
We have already shown that you know nothing of economics, can’t add, can’t string a logical argument together and constantly misinterpret information that third grader would understand.
Please spare us you apathetic attempts to be funny.
I disagree with my Republican friend, Mr. Goldstein.
Making students pay for the education our society needs them to have is an idea worthy of the obstructionist Repricans we all so endure. For those who need it, and deserve it, education should be free up to the point where we launch folks into their careers.
In the rest of the world getting into a top college is much more competitive than its here, Admission by ability and effort is a sort of rationing but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than rationing by how rich is Daddy.
Unlike athletic scholarships, that are plentiful, academic scholarships are rare in our system, Moreover, academic awards are almost always means tested. Even Merit Finalists only get a few hundred dollars if their parents are middle class!
So, WADR to a conservative like David Goldstein, it seems to me that we should address this issue by a much more efficient use of our tiered system of schools. Here is the SJ plan:
1, Nationalize the Merit awards and provide enough funds so we can support the best students. Testing should be improved to allow rating community achievements, background vs achievement, athletic achievement as well as numerical scores. This would help ensure diversity.
2. Make the elite schools “public” unless they are willing to forego federal funding. This would entail their agreeing to accept Merit awards as FULL payment for residential tuition.
3. Focus the top state schools, the “research universities” on serving a smaller set of students who can benefit from this environment. That number will be much bigger than those receiving federal merit awards but no student should be turned away for financial need (this is the current policy at Harvard).
4. Strengthen the state college and comm college system to deal with the much larger numbers of students. Every community college should have a simple mechanism for earning a BA for those students who want and need that degree.
Just call me an Obama Democrat!
Deep thought:
Republicans lost the elections. They are in the deep minority. They are irrelevant.
Cyn if you’d take that young boy’s dick out of your mouth long enough to type a few keystrokes into Google you’d find overwhelming evidence that the GOP has no interest in creating more college graduates.
States that voted for Kerry in 2004 had 21 percent more college graduates than states that voted for Bush.
The states that ranked the lowest for high school and college graduates were all red states.
Eight out of 10 of the states that ranked the highest for high school college graduates were blue states. (The number one state, by far, is Colorado — technically a red state because it went for Bush by a small margin, but effectively a “purple” state because it’s become so politically mixed.)
According to EDU.
You’re the perfect example of why retards vote GOP.
Goldy,
Your model is one State Sen. Ken Jacobsen has advocated in the past. I think it is worth a look, however the fear seems to be that aid other than loans would only be available to the poorest of the poor.
For those of your who aren’t aware the State currently subsidizes in-state students for roughly 2/3 of the cost of their education regardless of means. This change would say take that pool of money and rather than allocate it blindly to a fixed number of students per institution put it in the pool with the other means tested state student aid. By doing so you increase the number of in-state students who can be served and the number receiving 100% tuition subsidies. Sure for many students this would increase the amount of tuition they are expected to pay out of pocket or with other forms of aid but many would actually have to pay less. Furthermore the amount of slots available for in-state students in the state’s 4 year and community colleges would go up.
When budget cut time comes the pool of student aid is reduced rather than enrollment. The colleges don’t have to look at things like cutting entire academic departments.
The ones who would be hurt the most by this would be in-state students who’s parents have high income. But at least in theory they have more money to pay toward higher education than those of more modest means.
By the way for the most part 4 year public universities in this state are an incredible bargain even at out-of-state tuition rates. Compare the UW, WSU, Evergreen, WWU, EWU, or even CWU to similar public and private institutions.
This idea of preserving capacity by increasing tuition is as old as our Higher education system. Increasing student aid and access to low interest loans have always been good tools to prevent drastic raises in tuition from shifting access to the wealthy. The GET program is another tool which allows parents and families to vest at the tuition rate in effect when they open the account even when a long term payment plan is entered into. The G is for guarantee and our investment in this program has proven to be one of the best financial choices we ever made. Even as the stock market continues to crash, our son attends university at 1992 prices.
@13 Chris
I totally agree with your post.
I do think, however, that there are real changes we need to make to have our state system survive and prosper. One of those changes should be deciding who …
who needs to got to college at all? Although we have acquired a societal obsession with the BA BS, it is obvious that many, many jobs do not need the time or study implied (if not realized) by the degree. If our high schools worked better, many students, like their foreign compeers would be prepared to work at the end of secondary school.
This does not and should not rule out folks who want to go to college just for fun, but perhaps those folks should pay for it?
Who is best served by community colleges the academic community is rightly worried that the lower cost cc campus model will drive out the colleges and universities. I think we should embrace the cc model for those who can be well served this way, including offering BA/BS through the community college system, perhaps in alliance with the colleges and universities.
Who NEEDS a research university? Part of this answer ought to be who deserves to have the state pay for this level of education? IMHO as a UW professor, many of our students would be as well or better served by less expensive forms of education. This makes sense, however, ONLY if we do not means terst admission to the UW.
@14
“The G is for guarantee and our investment in this program has proven to be one of the best financial choices we ever made. Even as the stock market continues to crash, our son attends university at 1992 prices.”
Too bad he’s not getting a quality education as passed performances attest.
Our education in this state sucks the only job your kid will get is picking up shit after the donkeys go by. You can throw good money after bad and always get the same results from the donkeys, we need more money. Forget the unions runs education, and if I hear one more time It’s for the kids I’m going to sue so that all you idiots see it’s for the union and teachers.
The kids don’t exist in this game.
Chris @13,
Thanks for the explanation. I think that some of the objections here are based on the fear. Yes, under what I’m proposing, only the most affluent families would see their costs go up, and the money saved from subsidizing high-income families could be used to lower real costs for other students and/or expand the number of available seats.
Jew @10,
I am proposing a purely means-tested system, much the way the Ivies do it (or at least used to do it 25 years ago.) Admission is based on merit, and is blind to ability to pay. Financial aid is based on need, and is blind to merit (academic, athletic or otherwise). If you are able to get in to the UW on merit, your cost will be proportional to your ability to pay.
Given my druthers, I would prefer that college be free to all those qualified to attend. But I don’t have my druthers.
Seattle Jew–
ummmmmmmmm, where are your questions about the bloated costs associated with “Higher Education”. As I recall, you previously admitted there is plenty of fat you are personally aware of. When does that get addressed?? Never?
SJ, you are part of the system.
You know as well as most where the Administrative Overhead charges are tacked on as well as unproductive spending.
What is wrong with seriously addressing the cost AND THEN talking about how to fund it??
You are a typical Obama liberal.
Give lip service to cost-effective government, but then take no action at the right time and simply raise taxes/fees or crank up the printing press like Obama.
Shame on you SJ. Your focus is so predictable and shallow. Let’s get out a clean sheet of paper and get down to business.
Adam @16
Notice, I’m not asking for more money. (Though I do believe we need to invest more money in higher education.) I’m merely proposing a more efficient use of the resources available now.
Stop subsidizing rich kids. They don’t need it.
Republican types who like to worship at the alter of the founding fathers’ words should note how many of them founded Universities (or public libraries) while not busy birthing a nation. By their acts, the founding fathers indicated how important education would be for the growth of the nation.
@10, well put. The recent notion that everyone who wants to go to college should has become a problem. Call me elitist if you must, but higher education isn’t for everyone. But a quality University Education for everyone who qualifies, not only those who can pay, is one of the foundations of this country. (Damn, I sound like a conservative. Should I throw in a few illegal immigrant references and maybe a freedom isn’t free?)
@20–
Really??
So if parents and kids are irresponsible with money, Junior still deserves a taxpayer-paid college eduation. That really encourages people to be responsible and save/sacrifice doesn’t it.
We have paid full boat for 3 kids and the 4th is in progress. Zero help. You idiots are right about one thing…that is my responsibility…just like every other parent.
LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS are for everything that will encourage folks & reward them for irresponsibility.
Says it all.
Make everyone a ward of the State.
Goldy@19
Your asking for more money !
Which isn’t a issue cause there not getting an education now or if it was free.
You missed my point.
Cynical @21,
Really? Where have your kids gone to school?
Oh, your kids education has been subsidized alright… You just haven’t seen the line item.
Adam @22,
No, my proposal does not ask for more money. It could be used to raise more revenue from tuition, though it doesn’t have to be implemented that way. What I’m asking for is to redistribute the current flat, per-student state subsidy into a financial aid model that awards the subsidy based on need.
@4 Of all the absurd lies Cynical has told on this blog, his claim that the “Moran” demographic votes Democratic ranks as one of the funniest.
http://forumpolitics.com/pics/moran-sign.jpg
The illiterati class is all yours, Cyn.
21, 23 – If Cynical’s spawn attend public colleges, taxpayers paid for 80% of it. As one of those taxpayers, I’d like to say that it’d be nice if Cynical at least was grateful.
Cyn –
Did I strike a nerve. Typical of Rightists that the logical jump is that anyone who isn’t fortunate enough to be able to afford college must be irresponsible. Congrats on putting your kids through college. I will likely be doing the same in about 14 years with zero help. But if I irresponsibly die, become disabled or otherwise unable to work before then, HELL YES my kids deserve to go to college if they qualify academically.
“We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
Righties hug the Constitution, except for the annoying bits that indicate that Government has a responsibility to the people. Promote the general welfare. Says it all.
Of course there ought to be LOANS available for those that pass a strict means test.
But no free rides.
And why is it you KLOWNS cannot stand to look at why the cost of higher education is spiraling out of control.
It’s the Academic Elitism…Seattle Jew would like to think he is somehow above that, but his comments show he jumps right on the revenue bandwagon without first disected the costs from all the PORK.
If you question the system sj…they will shun you. It’s an elitist klub.
You dare question them, expect the
Academic
Snort &
Sneer back
Come on Sj….justify to the poor families of Washington the Administrative costs of higher education. Justify the extravagant excesses of those at the higher ed trough.
Keep your eyes closed sj and be a good little boy and the system will take gooooooood care of you financially.
Rock the boat and prepare for the consequences.
Sj–
Aren’t you ashamed??
You ought to be.
I’ll bet you are FAT and HAPPY though.
If only you and your mates could get a few more BILLION dollars from the suckers.
Right?
Czech @ 27–
Why do you believe a College Education is part of the General Welfare of the people???
Seems a bit over-dramatic…especially with tens of millions of college grads out of work and folks working with their hands (mechanics etc.) doing just fine without a 4 year college degree.
Why is the 4 year degree to all kids a responsibility of the State??
You are the problem with that arrogant wrongheaded thinking.
SJ @10 and 13
I agree with much of what you have said AND you have said it very well.
Education is essential for the youth and all the people of our country. We can’t let education get out of reach for our kids and we can’t saddle them with huge loans like the poor idiot cycnical want to do.
Cynical… you didn’t answer. Where did your kids go to college that you supposedly paid in full with “zero help”…? Come on… did they go to any state schools?
@29
O.K. I’ll put the two posts together since you can’t connect the dots. The constitution was written by men and includes the General Welfare clause. The men who wrote that document spent a great deal of their time founding universities, public libraries and in Jefferson’s case expounding at great length on the merits of higher education. (You can find these writings in books, that are available at libraries and universities.) So combine the WORDS that these men wrote with the DEEDS of their lives and you will come to the conclusion that higher education is EXACTLY the kind of thing that promotes the General Welfare.
What, please, do you think would promote the general welfare? I know this is a tough one for righties to work out. Government spending no money on any programs at all and eliminating taxes altogether cannot promote the general welfare. So what general welfare programs do you support? If you love this country, and the constitution, you have to be ready to provide an answer. Government doing nothing is by-the-letter unconstitutional.
BTW, it’s in article 8 too:
“The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States;” (Damn, the founding fathers explicitly directed the government to collect taxes and pay for services with it? There goes my conservative beleif system. )
“Imagine telling them they have to go to community college because the parents cannot afford UW. “
Quit whining. How about the kids who can’t afford CC? How about….work…save….work while going to school….student loans….
What a bunch of entitlement mentality nonsense..
“oh no, I have to work to go to school…., I won’t be able to afford a flat panel tv, and have to live at home….IT’s not fair!!!!!!”
blah blah blah….
College is not a right. It’s not free.
Some kids work thru school, some don’t. Life’s not fair.
Right Stuff–
Aren’t these KLOWNS ludicrous.
And Goldy, at one time I paid over $50k/year of property tax and other taxes to the State. I get your point. 1 of my kids did go to Washington…2 others out of state.
Did you get any help Goldy back in Philly??
@34
All I know is that the entitlement mentality is getting out of control.
This is stood up by many as an example of what’s wrong with our country…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01MNZBTt4K4
I saw this and I think “STFU”!!!
I bet there are people who would kill or die to have the job and opportunity of college this guy has. He’s 19 and whining about having to work at McDonalds while going to school…
STFU man!
It’s not a right to have a job
Go to college
Own a car
Own a house
etc
etc
etc
Guess what Mr McDonalds dude, If you want to work as a broadcaster, you might have to intern for FREE..How do you like that job now?
YOu don’t graduate college and become a VP and get all the salary and bene’s right away…..
Work!!!!!!!!
@35 “work at McDonalds while going to school”
I dislike whiners. I delivered mail on campus for minimum wage. I had time between classes, appreciated the work, and needed the money. I also worked as a janitor early in the evening for minimum wage at KIRO on Broad Street back when Loyd Cooney ran the station and Sandy Hill was showing afternoon movies. That was actually an interesting job. Later in the evening I worked as a musician in Seattle clubs. I also found full-time work in the summer with engineering firms where I started to learn about my future profession in real-world terms. With so much time spent working and studying there was no time to whine, even if I’d wanted to.
@36
Hey Steve,
I’m not imune from whining myself. I just try to keep it real and not indulge in a “pitty party” like Mr McDonalds/go to college.
What really irks me is the entitlement.
His story is what’s right about this country, not the other way around. IMO
@36 I delivered mail on campus for minimum wage.
(And still does!)
Why is college tuition so high?
Are the teachers greedy?
Doesn’t it suck to be so old.
If you were going to college today you wouldn’t feel you had to lower yourself to minimum wage jobs. You would expect to be paid a “living wage” with benefits.
Strange… You seem to have been much more conservative in your youth.
I’m more conservative now than then. I just refuse to be in the same political party that would welcome an ignorant, racist shit such as yourself.
Cynical @34,
So you didn’t pay in full with zero help, after all. In fact, the state picked up at least 2/3 of one child’s education.
As for me, I went to a pricey private school, the University of Pennsylvania, where I received a generous financial aid package, especially during my first two years when my sister was in college at the same time. I came away with the maximum amount of student loans allowed at the time (about $3,800/year in early 1980’s dollars, and at record high interest rates, if I recall correctly), but most of package came in the form of grants—some federal Pell grants, but mostly direct grants out of Penn’s endowment.
I was very fortunate to receive a top notch education at, what was for me and my family, an affordable price.
@38 “(And still does!)”
Actually, I’ve been a member of design and construction teams for just about every hospital in the region, perhaps even one that you or a loved one stayed in. Sometimes demand for my services comes from out-of-state, like the new hospitals for Stanford University and Travis AFB I did a long time ago. My designs also include defense facilities like the Trident base at Bangor, including missile assembly buildings and the explosives handling wharf where they load the nukes on the subs, high-tech buildings for IBM, Microsoft, RealNetworks, Corbis and others, the state convention center expansion, as well secret stuff for Rockwell and others, to name a few things off the top of my head. It’s just work.
Goldy
My concern with applying your model is that it will drive the best students out of the UW because there is not a chance in hell that tuition would be raised to a high enough level to assure that the best kids in WASTATE can go to the UW.
The first priority should, IMO, to assure that every kid in WASTATE who can use the great resources of the UW can do that. To make this affordable, I suspect that fewer students would attend the UW, making the cost per student apparently higher.
I say “apparently” because I think the resources we have are wasted on a lot of kids who would be better served by our excellent state colleges or the community colleges. If the education at Eastern is as good or better than that at UW, why pay the extra load here?
The problem is to get the legislature to fund the UW as a high quality education for those most deserving of that rather than as a diploma mill.
Back to your proposal, I have no objection to wealthy students paying more of their way, BUT I do object to a system where we pay full boats for athletes, REGARDLESS OF NEED, bit means test aid to outstanding students. If we want to do as well in psychology and economics as we do in basketball and football, isn’t it obvious that we need to offer full boats to outstanding students too?
Mr Cynical
What a bag of sleeze!
Look at it this way … in many areas, including my own (UW Medicine), the UW ranks at or near the Ivies. The tuition (wi mandatory board and room) at Harvard is nearly 50,000.
Seems to me we are doing a pretty good job for WASTATE.
Of course, you could move out of WASTATE and send your kids to ,,,, well lets just say the less prestigious schools most states have. I think you might like the University of Mississippi.
On the other hand, maybe you feel education is like one of those conveyor belts in a cheap suuhi joint? It goes round and round, you collect enough plates and eat whatever is on there and then get a degree?
@33 Righteous Stuff … lets see …
at exactly what income level would you like to assure that a student, no matter how hard working or how bright, can not afford to go to college?
Maybe we just have a lottery?
34. Mr. Cynical spewed :
I AM impressed. You musta been one pretty effin well off dude considering the low tax burden here.
Was this for a 15 million dollar house? Or did you add in the sales tax on that private jet you bought?
What means test would you propose to use? The financial aid model, that determines a family’s ability to contribute towards college costs is doesn’t reflect realistic household costs. In For example, a calculated family contribution of $7,500 for one year may indicate that the family can really only afford to contribute $3,000 and anything on top of that is difficult, if not impossible, without parent loan help.
Qualifying for Pell Grant, State Need Grant, usually requires a nearly ZERO calculated family contribution. There might be work study, direct student loans, and other student and parent loans, but the families relying on these, probably in reality are needy enough to benefit from more grant aid, but they can’t get it. Likely the means-test will rely on the same financial aid model and will, like the financial aid available, leave out the folks who have some savings for college but cannot cover educational costs without significant loan help.
@46
SJ,
WTF? What insulated world do you live in? All are not equal, all is not fair. The bottom line is, if there is a will there is a way.
That means that maybe the best academic student, who is extremely bright, might have to work and go to school. It may take more than 4 years to complete…..There may be loans, grants, scholarships, charity, etc…
There is no means test other than the desire and motivation of the individual desiring the education.
A 4 year University of WA degree is not a right.
Wow, thanks for the compliment.
People, I mean men, wouldn’t allow me to determine what party they belonged to.
It’s interesting how much of your power you give up because of me.
See, that’s why I laugh when I think of you being tough. HAHAHAHAHAhAHAHAHA
@49 Rightstuff
This is NOT simply a question of rights. We ALL benefit when the best of us are educated. Why should I prefer to educate soem dumbass klds from Broadmoor if there are brighter kids living in White Center?
I suspect you you also have no idea what a real education is like. School for the best and most determined is a full time effort. Sure, you can take the next potential Einstein and have her spend 4 hrs a day flippin burgers but is that a good investment of OUR resources?
Maybe where you and I differ is in the perception of who OWNS the education system? Jefferson and Franklin believed that we .. not the rich .. shold own the education system. I was lucky enough to go to Boston Latin School, ther oldest public school in the USA.
One of the things that really pisses me of about Seattle is the segregation by wealth of educational resources here. If ti were up to me, Lakeside and Bush would be PUBLIC schools!
CYNCYN pays 50k in property taxes? This lying asswipe doesn’t even MAKE 50k cleaning toilets in the sex-offender unit at McNeil Island.
And as usual, the righties are fine with our tax money going to make bombs for wars that will then pay GOP friendly companies for re-construction – but give someone a chance to improve themselves, maybe discover a cure for cancer or otherwise benefit society? NAH! That’s too risky because they might become so smart they never vote GOP again!
Goldy wrote:
“Stop subsidizing rich kids. They don’t need it.”
And stop funding tuition, at discounts, for illegals. They don’t deserve it. If they want to go to school here, let them get student visas, like the smart Asian students do.
SJ–
We owned 7 rentals and 1/2 of a commercial building….due to sacrifice, saving and wise investing.
I see Seattle Jew totally dodged the discussion about the waste ne KNOWS is in our Higher Ed System like a good little jackboot system boy.
SJ, you are part of the problem.
You know full well about the incredibly sky-rocketing administrative overhead and other waste and choose to stay silent.
Shame on you.
But your fellow Elitists will continue to include you in the White Wine and Bire Cheese socials. That ought to make you feel good. Drink a lot SJ, I will help you forget what a sleeze bag you are.
@54
Wow, too early for you? Can you throw in a few more rightie cliches today? Jackboot, Elitist, Wine and Brie. Sacrifice, saving and wise investment? (Could that be translated to falling out of a lucky womb, collecting rents, railing against the capital gains tax? After all, only those who actually WORK should have to pay taxes.)
Ummm, accusing someone of dodging a discussion is pretty funny.
I ask SJ again..
Identify ALL the pork in the system??
I thought you were brought up to be against Pork??
Is denying Pork in Higher Ed. part of your conversion from Judaism to Atheism???
Maybe that explains it, huh?
You can’t raise tuition. How are all those kids gonna afford all their alcohol?
My sister in law once cleaned a “house” at the UW. She was sure none of the girls there did anything but drink, party, and trash the place. All on our (and mommie’s) dime. She was sure they drank 24/7/365.
I don’t want to paint the 1 or 2 percent of students that go to college to get an education, and be productive citizens, just because the rest just want to avoid work, party, and get laid at any cost….
Boy Student: “What are you studying?”
Girl Student: “Partying, how about you”
Boy Student: “Partying too. Wanna have sex?”
Higher education…..
“We owned”
I see that Cynical’s narcissism is rearing its ugly head again. How about telling us again about how you and the Republicans are real Christians and the rest of us are just a bunch of Godless heathens. That’s always good for a laugh.
If Cynical buys a stock, I short it. JRCC? From $72 to $4. WFC? From $25 to $10. BOOM? From $40 to $10. Easy money. Just do the opposite of what Cynical does.
@56 Cynical Mistah
1. Convert? I am a committed Jew, but I would guess you have no idea what Judaism means. Ignorance is a wonderful thing.
2. Pork. My home was never kosher, nor am I. Nor are most Israelis.
3. If you read my posts or my blog I have argued in very specific ways about how e could make the UW and WASTATE higher ed. more efficient.
Of course, that assumes you have an loyalty to OUR state and interest in making it better.
Cynical’s only loyalty is to the Republican party and to the BIAW. He has never shown any loyalty to our country whatsofuckingever. He obviously hates our state and our cities. Ship the self-loathing fucktard back east where he came from.
So SJ–
You say you have argued many times on Higher Ed efficiency…seems like I can find nothing specific by you, just useless generalties. It’s like you must feel good about saying there is something wrong with the Higher Ed structure, but when it comes time to raise specifics, you cower in the corner with the rest of your fat cat, fat ass friends…laughing at how stupid the public is to not question all costs and the system.
Good for you SJ.
You’ve gouged out a good living, like Rog Rabbit did at DSHS, all at the taxpayers expense.
Must feel wonderful.
Seattle Jew–
You are a liar!
33. @32 Pudge
If teachers weren’t so greedy the cost of education wouldn’t be so high.
Besides greed, what has driven up the cost of education.
It’s not as if colleges can say due to the increases in raw materials they had to raise the cost of an education.
If you don’t agree, explain why the cost is increasing.
the u.s. already has the highest tuition fees on average to any other country. in most countries w/ equal or better higher ed programs, costs don’t go up as rapidly as they do here.
i was seeing almost $1000/year tuition increases in virginia as an in-state student.
in germany, the student population freaked on a tuition increase and took to the streets.
until students and parents do similar, universities will keep sh*tting all over those that struggle to get through school. at this rate, the law of diminishing returns predicts a college degree will become (more) useless.
higher tuition restricts access to education – especially to working class and students w/ children, leads to social inequality and accumulations of high debt.
@63 Mr. Cynical
Many years ago I discovered I was very untalented as a lier, found it impossible to remember who I lied to. I decided never to lie again and, with rare exceptions, have not done so. You should get together with Lee on this one. Like you, he takes disagreement as a synonym for lying.
I suppose you may think my calling myself an atheist and Jew is untruth? Please consult an orthodox rabbi if you need help with our law, but I am a Jew by birth. Judaism does not require a credo from those born as Jews. Amongst my fellow atheists are such well known Yidden as Einstein, Spinoza, Alinsky, and most of the founding zionists. BTW, there are also Jews who consider themselves Buddhists, .. if that is awright widcha.
Mr C ctd ..
Or do you thinik I ma lying about having taken stands on the inefficiencies of WASTATE’s higher ed system?
You can go look at SJ for some of what I have written .
Here is a list of concrete ideas for you to chaw on:
1. Close the “branch” campuses in Bothell and Tacoma. Replace them with less expensive state colleges or extensions of existing state colleges.
2. Offer degree programs at most community colleges.
3. Offer distance learning support from the UW and WSU to then entire higher ed system so more students can get higher level course work at less expensive sites.
4. make admission to the UW and WSU more selective, emphasizing those students whose fields of study and achievement levels justify the resources of a research campus.
5. Cut administrative overhead. The bureaucracy at the UW is very reduplicative. Part of this bloat is a huge number of attorneys hired in recent years to deal with risk management and compliance. In other cases, administrative appointments simply add levels of complexity in areas where the faculty has the competence to govern.
6. Simplify the computer environment. There is no unified enterprise level software on campus. Inexpensive tools, e.g. go 2 meeting are not used (video conferencing is the norm), in an era where student truly need to have their own notebooks, we still have rooms full of PCs maintained by the UW at high cost.
7. Cut all public subsidies to the professional sports programs. How can we subsidize public games in these hard times?
8. Utilize UW/WSU faculty and facilities to support state activities now supported by outside contractors and consultant.
9. Privatize or spin off as self sustaining parts of the UW and WSU that can operate independent of state funding … eg Med School, B School, Law School. At this level I agree with Goldy. A lot of these schools activities should eb able to finance themselves.
Specific enough for you?
69 Mr. Cynical
It is wonderful and I am grateful.
FWIW … I suspect I have brought in well over my income to the uW for many years. Of course most of this was in the form of federal grants.
However, work that came from my lab and the labs of my fomer students has also had a huge effect on heath care, including profits made by many drug companies.
Beyond that, people with my credentials in the private sector make from twice to five times as much as I do as an academic.
That said, I do feel very privileged to have the intellectual freedom and opportunities to use that freedom provided by my job. I suspect I share that gratitude with many others who work in fields supported by the government and our tax dollars. I am very proud of of work “we” do in the military, police, social services, research and education.
Are you aware that government supported workers invented the Internet? developed most of the drugs we use to control or cure disease? fought WW II, created Yosemite and Mr,. Rainier as national parks? took us to the moon? decoded the human genome? explored the Northwest? created Ross Lake?
BTW I assume you do not drive on public roads or use the internet? I also assume you have a private police force and own a lot of fire extinguishers?
I hope you are as satisfied with your job!
SJ
Been away.
1. “Why should I prefer to educate soem dumbass klds from Broadmoor if there are brighter kids living in White Center?”
The way I see it, you shouldn’t discriminate either way. Your duty is to deliver the best education regardless of weatlh, race, sexual orientation etc…
2.”I suspect you you also have no idea what a real education is like.”
Based on your comments, I wouldn’t recognize you as the person to define “real education”.
Tilting on the elistist, no? Of course, in your mind, there must not be any “real education” outside of your definition.
3. “School for the best and most determined is a full time effort. Sure, you can take the next potential Einstein and have her spend 4 hrs a day flippin burgers but is that a good investment of OUR resources?”
And careers, benefits, toys, and wealth for all!!! In the real world, where life isn’t fair or equal, there are many paths to a 4 year education. I suppose you look down on Bill Gates for instance, or any number of great minds that didn’t receive a “real education”. What’s wrong with flipping burgers anyhow? The implications of your statement are ominous….Maybe the State should determine at birth the path for all of us, so that we don’t “waste resouces”.
I believe in the opportunity for all. It’s up to the individuall to make it happen. And that’s the rub……
So it wasn’t your efforts at educating people at your college that increased revenue, it was your ability to get taxpayer money funneled to your school.
In the old days educators educated, today they compete for federal funds.
I only employ two… Smith and Wesson. They are always ready to protect me & mine, as opposed to the government police force that shows up after the incident to take a report. Unlike the government police force that beats black people, my security force treats all criminals equally. Unlike the government police force that uses their union to raise the cost of security, mine had a one time flat fee to protect me.
Goldy,
I have drafted legislation to achieve exactly what you’re discussing. While I haven’t introduced the bill this year due to the lack of support on the Higher Education Committee, I’ve been actively raising the issue within the Democratic caucus of the state House.
I plan to push this proposal and it is my hope in the coming months and years we can have a more substantive dialogue about this philosophical and policy approach. To date, Sen. Ken Jacobsen has been the legislature’s strongest proponent of this model. I hope at some point we can get more folks to join us.
A more progressive, thoughtful and data-driven tuition and financial aid policy is one of my major legislative goals.
Thanks for your support of the issue.
@71 Stamm imposter
Sad.
What portion of our country’s productivity do you suppose comes out of the government funded research at Universities?
Whick of the following were developed in private instittues or companies;
internet
databases
basic
the human genome
the A bomb
cholesterol lowering drugs
viagra
antihypertensives
tomography
transistors
LSIC
breeding new forms of rice and farm animals
????
Oh .. you think Universities just teach????
BTW .. what useful thing do you contribute or are you a real parasite?
One only needs to interact with university students to understand they don’t teach. The correct word would be indoctrinate.
Why is college so expensive?
Do people like you that do “research” at colleges because in the private sector you would be expected to produce results, or in other words, earn your paycheck?
Parasite? Government grants, aka taxpayer money, or the private sector where the people actually paying my check gets to choose who to pay. Hhmm…
@74 As I said, next time you use the Internet or get sick, perhpas you will understand better what government does for you.
OTOH, it seems sad that you do something so useless that you can’t tell the rest of what it is. Lets see … male model, female impersonator, hired hit man, waitress, insurance salesman, limousine driver, body shop worker,bra fitter for Nordstrom’s, body guard, manager at your wife’s McDonald’s franchise, manager at your husband’s McDonald’s franchise, manager at your wife’s lover’s McDonald’s franchise, bar tender, heroin salesman, male impersonator, street beggar, baptist preacher, pimp, corporate pilot for Citi, gambler, stock broker, plumber, roto rooter operator, swimming pool cleaner, bus driver, operator of a 7-11, car salesman, ad salesman for CBS affiliate, tattoo artist, travel agent, operator of a gun shop, collector or comic books,
am I getting close?
The solution to this problem is to engage 21st century marketing techniques and apply them to education. Andrew Jackson University is using a series of network marketing partners that have allowed the University to create the Sponsored Tuition program. Applicants to the University enroll through one of the partner sites and get access to a zero tuition plan. There is mandatory fee structure, but without tuition, the total cost per semester has been driven below $500 – and without any government subsidies.
Andrew Jackson University maintains institutional accreditation through the Distance Education and Training Council. (www.detc.org) The DETC is the only accrediting association approved by the US Department of Education solely for the purpose of accrediting distance institutions. AJU is a Title IV eligible school, but is not participating, which also eliminates another significant cost factor.
For more information go to http://www.sponsoredtuition.com
@76: And who the hell wants a distance learning degree in business from a cut-rate University?
@75: SJ – It is usesless to argue with a trogolodyte like Stamn – all Stamn is interested in is making sure to criticize any and all democratic or government proposals – yet he/she offers nothing of their own.
This is just typical republican naysaying and carping. they have nothing substinative to add, so they try to go after any government spending as automatically bad.
It is a simplistic way of thinking and, of course, ignores the fiscal mismanagement of the last 8 years. Stamn supported Bush and can’t even recognize his/her own hypocrisy.
@77 ,,,
beware when libruls and repricans adopt common themes. Democratizing education by dumbing it down demeans and degrades everyone.