Via Slog, the NY Times rates the Burner-Reichert race a toss-up.
Can’t Bring Yourself to Type the Word “Ass”?
Eager to share our brilliant political commentary and blunt media criticism, but too genteel to link to horsesass.org? Well, good news, ladies: we also answer to HASeattle.com, because, you know, whatever. You're welcome!
Where’s ASS? Any news on her jihad against me and Goldy?
someone has a Jihad” against you???? oh…ha ha ha ha…that’s rich.
god…don’t you libs EVER tire of misusing and over using words? if someone is conservative and they disagree your take on things you scream “NAZI” …..and now a jihad?
well…i guess it’s one way to seem “bigger than you are”. after all…a JIHAD…whew. that’s scary stuff.LOL.
you must be a very imporatnt person to warrant a jihad.
of course….it’s pretty tasteless because real people are actually dying because of jihads but hey…whatever it takes to make you little libs feel big and important.
you could at least TRY to be funny……
ghost – like ASS you’re an authoritarian cultist. Here’s a link – draw your own conclusions.
I can’t wait to see what pops out of that knee-jerk reactionary head of yours.
did ya see Timmy lieman whineman Eyman complaining that the SOS lied about the number of signatures he turned in?
My guess is that Timmy just can’t count or that he’s upset that he was caught (once again) lying.
FTC, that’s quite the hilarious list. It’s pretty clearly just a copy and paste of someone’s blogroll. Couldn’t even come up with an original list.
So, Helen Lovejoy is claiming to post your quote on all those sites and attribute it to you and Goldy? Too bad few of the listed sites allow comments.
I am not surprised by Tim’s latest stunt, he’s a moronic slimeball who enjoys the limelight more then he enjoys acutually helping people. Not only does he lie, but he also encourages his initive signature collector drones to lie. I found out 1st hand when I was approached outside a grocery store, I was in a hurry, sorta kinda read the initive info, and then said,”this isn’t a Tim Eyman initive is it?” The drone replied, “no, it’s not”. I was HORRIFED when I later discovered it indeed was one of his initives!!!
Ya know what Tim, it wasn’t cute the 1st time, and it STILL isn’t cute the bazillionth time!!! Now, shoooooooo, gooooo the heck away!!!!
OK, that’s my 10 cents worth!
Doing the arithmetic.
In the House races, the NY Times claim that 189 seats are “safe Democrat” and 13 are leaning that ways. Even if you throw in all “toss ups”, the Republicans still have a five seat majority with 194 “safe” and 26 “leaning” Republican seats.
Since the Old Gray Lady usually skews its polls in favor of the Blue team, things are looking up for the GOP.
As for the 8th Congressional District race, I kind of doubt the NY Times has cared to visit or poll South Hill, Orting, Auburn, Covington, Bellevue or Redmond to get an accurate guess on the voters’ preferences.
Let’s hope that the GOP keeps control of the House and Senate in 06. Here’s why. Then when th 08 election comes around, 10,000 dead GIs in Iraq, deficits still at record highs, WWIII breaking out, $5 gallon gas, stock market collapse, no new jobs, the GOP won’t have anyone to blame but themseleves and we’ll get control of both houses and the Executive Branch! In the mean time, we’ll make enough gains in both houses to make the traitors on the right miserable. It should be a fun few years!
I agree with you, Left Turn. I definitely want Democrats in charge when Medicare and Social Security goes bankrupt. Your party will be forced to make massive changes and you won’t be forgiven. Democrats should have reformed social security last year………President Bush is a lame duck president and it wouldn’t have hurt your party, but it will later.
No we won’t have to reform SS. All we’ll do is stop writing checks to Dick Cheney’s company. That amount alone would fund SS for 45 years!
Good comeback, but atlas, it’s not quite true!
“Democrats should have reformed social security last year…” — sgmmac
Fascinating theory. How, per chance, were the Democrats going to reform anything when they were the minority party? Are you really saying that the Democrats should have caved in to the Republican proposals?
Why one earth should they do that? For more than the last decade the Republicans have steadfastly refused to engage in virtually any bipartisan cooperation. If the Republicans had been out of power over the last few years they would have used every trick in the book to stop any Democratic proposals from ever seeing the light of day.
So what I assume you are really saying is that you will criticize the Democrats regardless of what they do. True?
ASS’ real name is Helen Lovejoy?
Ok I get it.. Sue me – I never followed the Simpsons.
Ass = Lovejoy ????
Priceless.
Ass = Helen ????
A gal with a Thatcher complex?
Quotable Quotes [Enjoy, Commie Libs!!!!!!!!]
Here’s my strategy on the Cold War:
“We win, they lose.”
– Ronald Reagan
“The most terrifying words in the English Language are: I’m from the
government and I’m here to help.”
– Ronald Reagan
“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant: It’s
just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
– Ronald Reagan
“Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U.S. was too
strong.”
– Ronald Reagan
“I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment’s would have
looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress.”
– Ronald Reagan
“The taxpayer: That’s someone who works for the federal government but
doesn’t have to take the civil service examination.”
– Ronald Reagan
“Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one
end and no sense of responsibility at the other.”
– Ronald Reagan
“The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a
government program.”
– Ronald Reagan
“It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have
learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.”
– Ronald Reagan
“Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short
phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it and if it
stops moving, subsidize it.”
– Ronald Reagan
“Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards,
if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book.” (Amen!)
– Ronald Reagan
“No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as
the will and moral courage of free men and women.”
Ronald Reagan:
* *
* *”Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a
difference. The Marines don’t have that problem.” President Ronald Reagan
Atlas, that’s soooo ’80s. How about some shrugga, shrugga, shrugga rap instead?
Goldy, The wowan without a dog bag to pick up after her dog was surely a liberal Democrat. Note she didn’t bring a bag with her and was shocked that she was held responsible for her actions. Yup….a Democrat.
Green Thumb,
Nooooooooo. President Bush did everything but beg for someone to come up with a plan or an idea. Had dear Teddy gone to him and put together a little committee, it would have been well on it’s way to being solved. Neither party is going to get everything they want…………….
[Hillary……..A Woman Who Understands The Little People!!!!! hehe, JCH]…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. Sen. Hillary Clinton has put together an army of 50 staffers and more than 20 consultants as she prepares to do battle for the 2008 Democratic nomination for president.
Included in those ranks is acclaimed Washington, D.C., hairstylist Isabelle Goetz, who has collected $3,000 in recent months to clip the former first lady’s locks.
Federal fund-raising records reveal that Clinton paid $1,500 to Goetz in April and another $1,000 in May.
She passed off both sessions as “media production” expenses, according to the New York Post.
OMG I agree with mark agen. Hillary is a basically a republican her Husband to I regard Bill Clinton the best moderate republican president we have ever had.
BOSTON — The Democrat head of the agency that oversees the troubled Big Dig highway project filed suit Monday seeking to prevent the governor from ousting him from his $223,000-a-year job. In the lawsuit, Democrat Matt Amorello asks a justice of the Supreme Judicial Court to block Gov. Mitt Romney from demoting him as chairman of the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority. The suit also seeks to prevent a hearing from taking place…
“Gentlemen! We’ve gotta protect our phony-baloney jobs!”
~~ Democrat Governor William J. LePetomaine, “Blazing Saddles”
Republicans can’t build any thing
Social Security won’t be privatized and its benefits won’t be cut. That means non-FICA taxes will need to go up in the pretty near future to cover the trust fund repayment obligations. It may mean that FICA taxes need to be raised decades from now. That won’t be very popular, either, but it’s still more popular than gutting the program.
Social Security is a very popular program.
The Repulicans have been calling the dance for the past 5-1/2 years, and the dance has been “Cut My Rich Massa’s Taxes.” The piper will have to be paid once we get rid of you drunks.
Here’s an example of the kind of nazi horseshit from libruls that just enrages us right thinking fair minded conservatives:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ire24.html
Dipshit fucking governor wants to reinstate quotas, preferences, and set asides for people who can’t win contracts on merit. Same fucking way she got into office. In the end of course, it ends up costing the taxpayers money to have this kind of horseshit go on.
The People of Washington votes 58-42 in favor of outlawing preferences and quotas. But this fucking governor and her accomplices have decided it no longer applies apparently.
Ok I get it.. Sue me – I never followed the Simpsons.
Commentby For the Clueless— 7/24/06@ 9:12 pm
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
I say we tax the Rich Massa’s up the wassu!!!! A 90% tax should do the trick. Go back to the tax rate in the 50es on the rich
“The most terrifying words in the English Language are: I’m from the
government and I’m here to help.”
– Ronald Reagan
Ah my favorite!!!!
Your right mark I say we just award contracts to liberal democrats and contributors to the democratic party like you ass holes do
“Ala” halliburton no bid contracts
sgmmac @ 19: “Nooooooooo. President Bush did everything but beg for someone to come up with a plan or an idea. Had dear Teddy gone to him and put together a little committee, it would have been well on it’s way to being solved.”
Begged? The Bush-Rove gang don’t “beg” for anything. That’s simply not their style. You’d have to go pretty far back in American history to find a president who placed so little attention on cultivating bipartisan support. This is an administration that has gone balls to the wall in playing to its base. Bush only started to “reach out” when it because clear that his “proposal” was a political disaster and he Rove attempted to share the wealth.
For you to make that argument suggests that you are either naive or are a spinster for the Republicans. I haven’t been following your comments that closely so I wouldn’t venture a guess. But either way, you’re completely off base factually.
Any changes to Social Security must be the basis for restoring solvency, this could increasing the payroll tax ceiling, changing the indexing of benefits, and limiting the benefits paid to the wealthy.
Anything that undermines the solvency of the current program and forces back-door benefit cuts is a non-starter. Private accounts won’t be paid for through diverted payroll taxes.
Any private account feature will be an add-on to the current program only, and not a replacement for it. Private accounts must be paid for without debt, without payroll taxes, and with identified sources of revenue.
If Republicans want private accounts, they have to say how they would pay for them.
Social Security changes must protect the safety net from those who supported deficit-inducing tax cuts who now want to use the deficits they created as the excuse for shredding that safety net and enriching their bottom lines.
No he is just brain bead mark is not smart enough to be a spinster for the Republicans
I say we just make the republicans pay back all the money they stole out of the trust found first
33
Actually the repubs should pay for the military and the dems should pay for all the social services. If a repub wants a food stamp they are SOL. If a lib ever gets hit by a terrorist they can jump off the nearest building. hehe
Harry @ 31:
The Republicans don’t have to say how they will pay for private accounts because the laws of economics have been repealed. They can have it all: tax cuts and increased spending! Voodoo economics rises to new heights!
More seriously, there’s a powerful school of thought within Bush administration circles that argues the deficit should be run up to such a degree that drastic and permanent budget cuts will be required. And since we supposedly have a “permanent” war on terrorism, the cuts won’t be coming out of the military-industrial complex.
In other words, make the “non-defense” side of government small enough that it can be strangled in a bathtub. Alas, these folks are crusaders: Unlike so many limp-wristed Democrats, the radical right doesn’t give up when it loses one round (as occurred did last year on Social Security).
Mark your so dumb it’s really not even funny.
GT@30 Roger Rabbit doesn’t think Sgmmac is a troll. He may be right. . .she’s pr’olly not smart enough. But when she get’s in her bag deep enough, she’ll spout that sort of nonsense.
‘Course with that sort of non-factual, delusional thinking, the effect is the same as being a troll.
35
They haven’t given up since 1935, when their great-grandfathers reviled the program, but is is a very popular program. So popular that I doubt the Democrats can take the slightest step away from it.
Harry, Social Security was One of the Greatest Social Experiments in history. And one of the most successful and has created the most social good for the greatest number of almost any social innovation. . .and I would reach all the way back to the Lex Hammurabi to find anything of as fundamental or as morally good in its essential nature.
It has been used as a model for similar systems throughout the civilized world, and it is despicably immoral to seek to damage or destroy it.
Social Security has been in trouble for years. The surplus funds have been raided by both parties for decades. Medicare is in far worse shape than social security. How much is the Medicare tax? It is higher than the social security payroll deduction. Neither can continue to pay out billions that they arn’t bringing in.
Social security is so bastardized now, it isn’t even the same program that was originally started. I’ve been seeing commercials all day for a law firm that will get you social security benefits if you have diabetes, high blood pressure or depression………… fraud, waste and abuse all are rampant in both programs.
Does Bill Gates need social security? Does his father draw his social security checks on top of his salary at the foundation?
Harry, Social Security was One of the Greatest Social Experiments in history. And one of the most successful and has created the most social good for the greatest number of almost any social innovation. . .and I would reach all the way back to the Lex Hammurabi to find anything of as fundamental or as morally good in its essential nature.
It has been used as a model for similar systems throughout the civilized world, and it is despicably immoral to seek to damage or destroy it.
dito
“the GOP won’t have anyone to blame but themseleves”
Commentby LeftTurn—
[……………………….I hope the GOP doesn’t blame “themseleves”. [Is that you “The Socialist”???]]
2
“don’t you libs EVER tire of misusing and over using words?”
Commentby christmasghost— 7/24/06@ 6:09 pm
Do you like it? We learned how to do that from GOP terrorists.
Actually, I think Germany has a better system than social security…………. They also pay very high taxes.
Sgmmac, the insurance portion of social security has been an integral part almost from the beginning. To characterize this as “waste, fraud or abuse simply displays your abysmal ignorance of this program, or its fundamental purpose.
If you had suffered any of the health calamities you cited while you served, you might have been retired as physically unable to serveand been a straight charge against the general fund of the government. I do not think you would have called that waste, fraud, or abuse and yet there is NO element in the fun ding funding of the army that takes any of that cost into account, beyond the full faith and trust of the government as a whole. Social security is a risk management process that makes an attempt to spread the risk.
2
News alert to ghost: Innocent people are also dying in the war Republicans started in Iraq, and in Republican torture chambers.
@24 “The Repulicans have been calling the dance for the past 5-1/2 years”
Harry, The first time I heard that social security had to be reformed was from President Clinton.
6
Hey Beth — are you new here? Let me explain the posting rules on HorsesAss:
1. This is a liberal blog;
2. Anybody can post here;
3. There is no censorship;
4. As liberals, our job is to verbally kick the living shit out of any GOP trolls stupid enough to post here;
5. No mercy for fascist traitors!
6. Our terms are unconditional surrender.
7
The GOP is full of Pollyannas these days.
8
It’ll be even more fun when we take control of the government again and can have these traitors shot.
It must be tough being John Kerry. 2 years ago, George Bush was running for re-election and was widely considered to be vulnerable. In fact, The Poodle was leading in the polls. He had it in the bag. The Poodle’s Keeper was measuring for drapes in the Oval Office. Everything seemed in order to inaugurate President sKerry in January 2005. Then a funny thing happened. He lost. John Kerry’s lifelong dream of becoming president of the United States went right down the drain. Bummer.
But that hasn’t stopped Kerry, or a willing media, from broadcasting his criticism of George W. Bush. But his latest proclamation takes the cake. Speaking about the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict, Kerry said yesterday up in Detroit that “If I was president, this wouldn’t have happened.” He also went on to bash the administration , saying: “The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East. We’re going to have a lot of ground to make up because of it.” Let’s take a look at what The Poodle would have done differently, shall we?
First of all, if you oppose Israel’s war in Lebanon, then that means you support Hezbollah. These are the same Islamic terrorists that killed some 241 U.S. military personnel in 1984 and that have murdered innocent people in various terrorist attacks. They have also taken several hostages and hijacked an airplane. So if you’re in favor of appeasement, that’s who you’re aligning yourself with. That’s who Israel is trying to get rid of.
So what’s Kerry’s plan? Well, as usual, Kerry was playing both sides of the fence. Said The Poodle: “This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq. We have to destroy Hezbollah.” We do? How about just letting Israel do it? Is that not a good policy?
Oh, and notice Kerry’s lack of reality about Iraq. He voted in favor of invading Iraq. Once again, The Poodle is exposed as a liar. That could be one of the many reasons why the American people did not award him a term in the Oval Office 2 years ago.
Just kidding! Hey, if Coulter can kid around about killing Supreme Court justices, why can’t I crack jokes about frog-marching the Republican traitors in front of firing squads? Why should Republicans have a monopoly on tasteless humor? Republicans want a monopoly on every fucking thing.
9
Mac – how about you vote for Democrats, and let us worry about whether SS and Medicare are going bankrupt.
P.S. – can you please explain to me how Bush’s plan to divert $1 trillion of FICA taxes to private investment accounts makes Social Security more solvent?
FOXNEWS O’REILLY 2,264,000
MSNBC OLBERMANN 349,000
That’s right….over 6 times as many people watch O’Reilly than watch Olbermann. More people even watch Nancy Grace’s show on Headline News. So since Olbermann can’t win in the ratings, he does what any low-rated show does: make fun of the competition to try and get attention. Which leads us to Saturday’s breakfast at the Television Critics Association press tour.
Olbermann, who is obsessed with Bill O’Reilly, shows up with an O’Reilly mask. You know, one of those deals with O’Reilly’s head on a stick. He was holding it up over his face, and…no surprise here…raising his hand in a Nazi salute. In case you hadn’t picked up on this, it is the natural fallback position of any liberal to accuse the conservative of being a Nazi when they run out of ideas. That’s how you know a leftist has lost an argument: they call you a Nazi.
Killatroll
I do have high blood pressure, how could I not have it after 30 years in the military and two combat zones…… and my great grandmother, grandfather and mom all either died of diabetes complications or had diabetes. There are many in the military with high blood pressure and let’s not talk about extremely high stress and depression………
I have no idea what fund my retirement check comes from other than the Army and I do get a disability check from the VA…..
that comes from the Department of Veteran’s Affairs, probably different money source.
11
“Good comeback, but atlas, it’s not quite true!” Commentby sgmmac— 7/24/06@ 8:59 pm
Neither is your winger bullshit about SS going bankrupt. In the worst case scenario, future retirees will still receive SS higher benefits (adjusted for inflation) than today’s retirees.
16
You guys always were good at bumper sticker slogans, but brainless when it comes to anything requiring brains.
19
You really are self-deluded, aren’t you?
Roger,
The private accounts don’t make it more solvent……. kinda!
Eventually, it would lessen the payments out and increase a person’s wealth.
Let’s take you for example. Since we have been talking for a long time, I would bet that if you had invested 2% of your social security payments in a private account, that now you would be swimming in a lake of carrots and much better off than if the government was paying you a little higher payment.
My Dad has been a Republican his whole life and he believes in means testing and raising the ceiling on deductions over 90,000 (I think that’s the limit)
@54
Is Barak O’Bama running????????
Social Security is part of a larger plan:
“Maybe you don’t believe that cheap-labor conservatives like unemployment, poverty and ‘cheap labor’. Consider these facts.
“Unemployment was 23 percent when FDR took office in 1933. It dropped to 2.5 percent by time the next Republican was in the White House in 1953. It climbed back to 6.5 percent by the end of the Eisenhower administration. It dropped to 3.5 percent by the time LBJ left office. It climbed over 5 percent shortly after Nixon took office, and stayed there for 27 years, until Clinton brought it down to 4.5 percent early in his second term.”
(Rabbit note: After Clinton left office, unemployment began climbed again during Dubya’s first month in office.)
“Cheap-labor conservatives have hated Social Security and Medicare since their inception. … Cheap-labor conservatives opposed universal public education …. Cheap-labor conservatives hate the progressive income tax …. Cheap-labor conservatives like budget deficits and a huge national debt …. ‘Free Trade, globalization, NAFTA and especially GATT are intended to create a world-wide ‘corporate playground’ where national governments serve the interests of corporations – which means ‘cheap labor’.” http://www.conceptualguerilla......php?id=103
Mike? McGavick is a cheap labor conservative. This guy, who makes $14 million a year, thinks the rest of us should work for $5.15 an hour.
WHEN THE BOMBS began to fall in the Middle East, the Daily Kos had a problem. And the Daily Kos’s problem could soon be the Democratic party’s problem.
On the one hand, one of the most solid blocks of support for the Democratic party is America’s Jewish community. Not only do America’s Jews tend to vote for Democrats, they tend to actively campaign and raise funds for politicians on the left. But for many American Jews, even the most liberal, Israel’s welfare is a going concern. Politicians who enter the Democratic party (and for that matter the Republican party) usually make a conspicuous show of the fact that they are “right on Israel.”
The vast majority of American political sentiment supports Israel while it is engaged in a shooting war with Hezbollah. To date, not a single prominent American politician has issued a statement that could be construed as being less than whole-heartedly supportive of Israel.
On the other hand, there is the Daily Kos community. As proprietor Markos Moulitsas frequently notes, the Kos community is representative of the “people-powered movement.” They are not led by one person; indeed, they are not led at all.
The miracle of the Kossacks is that they are tens of thousands of like-minded people who have used the site to find one another. Although they differ on many details, they tend to monolithically detest George W. Bush and American conservatives. They also tend to distrust or loathe anything or anyone that winds up in Bush’s literal or metaphorical embrace. Like Joe Lieberman. Or Israel.
Watch out, #21 is a wingnut troll.
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
Hey – it’s a Fox show.
24
“non-FICA taxes will need to go up in the pretty near future to cover the trust fund repayment obligations”
No problem, there’s plenty of slack at the upper end of the progressive income tax scale right now.
25
When we call you guys nazis, we’re just stating facts.
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them.That is our bottom line.”
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
“Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
“We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate,air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs.”
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
“Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
“There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
390
Here’s how Bush “reached out” to anyone who didn’t agree with privatizing Social Security (or invading Iraq):
Item #1:
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa – When school was canceled to accommodate a campaign visit by President Bush, the two 55-year-old teachers reckoned the time was ripe to voice their simmering discontent with the administration’s policies.
“Christine Nelson showed up at the Cedar Rapids rally with a Kerry-Edwards button pinned on her T-shirt; Alice McCabe clutched a small, paper sign stating ‘No More War.’ What could be more American, they thought, than mixing a little dissent with the bunting and buzz of a get-out-the-vote rally headlined by the president?
“Their reward: a pair of handcuffs and a strip search at the county jail.”
Item #2:
“Their experience is hardly unique. In the months before the 2004 election, dozens of people across the nation were banished from or arrested at Bush political rallies, some for heckling the president, others simply for holding signs or wearing clothing that expressed opposition to the war and administration policies.
Item #3:
“Similar things have happened at official, taxpayer-funded, presidential visits, before and after the election. Some targeted by security have been escorted from events, while others have been arrested and charged with misdemeanors that were later dropped by local prosecutors.
Item #4:
“Jeff Rank and his wife, Nicole, filed a lawsuit after being handcuffed and booted from a July 4, 2004, appearance by the president at the West Virginia Capitol in Charleston. The Ranks, who now live in Corpus Christi, Texas, had free tickets to see the president speak, but contend they were arrested and charged with trespassing for wearing anti-Bush T-shirts.
Item #5:
Last year, in Denver, (Leslie) Weise and two friends were evicted from a Bush town hall meeting on Social Security reform. … After parking Weise’s car, the three, dressed in professional attire and holding tickets obtained from their local congressman, arrived at the Wings Over the Rockies Air and Space Museum. Young cleared security, but Weise and Bauer were briefly detained and told by staff they had been ‘identified’ and would be arrested if they tried ‘any funny stuff,’ according to court records. After finding their seats, they were approached again by staff and removed before Bush began speaking. Days later, Weise learned from Secret Service in Denver that a bumper sticker on her green Saab hatchback — ‘No More Blood for Oil’ — caught the attention of security.
“‘I had every reason to attend that event, just as anyone else in the room had that day,’ said Weise. ‘If we raised security to a higher level just because we had an opinion different from the administration, I think that goes far beyond what is appropriate for this country.'”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....protesters
So I have a question. Since all of Bush’s public appearances are invitation-only events that only GOP loyalists are allowed to enter — and anyone else will be arrested — aren’t these really campaign activities, and shouldn’t the GOP reimburse the taxpayers for the use of Air Force One and other government property, and for Secret Service salaries?
70
“39” not “390”
32
Hell mark isn’t even smart enough to pay off a simple bet.
Here are a couple of my favorites, paraphrased:
Ketchup is a vegetable. Ronald Reagan.
Trees are the biggest polluters. Ronald Reagan.
37
I don’t think Mac is a troll in a Kevin Carns sense, but I don’t think she’s open minded, either. Mac will defend the Republicans no matter what.
40
“Social security is so bastardized now, it isn’t even the same program that was originally started. I’ve been seeing commercials all day for a law firm that will get you social security benefits if you have diabetes, high blood pressure or depression………… fraud, waste and abuse all are rampant in both programs.” Commentby sgmmac— 7/24/06@ 11:13 pm
There are law firms that specialize in getting SS disability benefits for their clients, just as there are law firms that specialize in getting personal injury damages from insurance companies. So what?
To get SS disability benefits for their clients, these lawyers have to prove their clients are “permanently and totally disabled” as defined by federal law. Assembling the required medical documentation is challenging, and hard work. Whether a medical condition is “disabling” under Social Security law is determined under the “Social Security Table of Listings” published in the Code of Federal Regulations.
Social Security has delegated the actual work of making disability determinations under the Table of Listings to state governments. In Washington, a unit of DSHS does this work. As a state lawyer, some of my work involved the Table of Listings, and I can assure you the medical review of applicants for SS disability benefits is rigorous and very complete.
No one is getting away with “waste, fraud, and abuse.” It usually takes two years or more for applicants to qualify for SS disability or SSI.
In comment #2 above, christmasghost complained of liberals “misusing and over using words.” The phrase, “waste, fraud, and abuse” is an excellent example of words that are misused and overused by Republicans, who invented the practice of misusing and overusing words as a propaganda technique. You want to see some real “waste, fraud, and abuse?” Okay, how about U.S. officials shoveling money into duffel bags held by private contractors in the backs of pickup trucks in Iraq? That’s your money they’re spending, sweetie; why aren’t you complaining about that?
Mac, I can go only so far in defending you as a non-troll. Here’s your opportunity to show a capability of thinking for yourself — if you have one. If you think about it, you’ll admit I know more about Social Security disability law — and the law firms engaged in this specialized practice — than you do. Law firms are permitted to advertise like any other business. The results they get for their clients depend not only on their lawyering skill, but also on the relevant medical and occupational facts of each client’s case. They can’t — and don’t — get Social Security benefits for people who don’t meet the federal law definition of “permanently and totally disabled.” Their advertising is designed to reach people who legitimately qualify for SS benefits because they have a medical condition that excludes them from employment, and who don’t know how to navigate the complex and difficult SS disability process themselves. There’s nothing wrong with that. I think it’s a good thing that there’s lawyers out there who can help people who are unable to work to get the benefits they paid taxes for that are intended for people like them.
You know not whereof you speak.
40
Social Security is not bastardized. It’s working properly.
40
I just can’t let a winger get away with an outrageous lie like that.
Somebody must have noticed this . . . Goldy’s inaccurate. It is not a toss up but “leaning dem.” If you look at the interactive map, they have a poll next to it. She’s leading 47%-33%.. Long time till we get to election day. “Toss up” was a different category and WA wasn’t in it.
Mac, if you’re hungry for recreational reading, here’s a link to some of the SS listings: http://208.56.213.87/listings.html
Roger,
The President has to be protected and that is the Secret Service’s job. When I said reaching out – I don’t mean reaching out to unknown people on the street. I meant Seanators and Congressmen……….. There have been bipartisian committees who have done a great job in the past.
Gregoire is right up there with Bush on the protection thing. She is holding 5 town halls and you gotta register to get in them…….. She was treated like a Republican when she gave a graduation speech recently. Students stood up and turned their backs on here and held up signs…… I didn’t cheer, I was disgusted, just the same as I would have been if it had been Bush. The protesting needs to stay on the streets outside of the event. Hillary Clinton was shouted down recently while she was speaking. I hope those people were removed too!
79.
Burner-Reichert is a “toss up” It’s under the “congress” tab. You’re looking at the Cantwell-Mike#$%& race.
41
“Does Bill Gates need social security? Does his father draw his social security checks on top of his salary at the foundation?”
Commentby sgmmac— 7/24/06@ 11:15 pm
Why shouldn’t the Gateses get Social Security? They paid the same taxes everyone else did. However, I doubt that Bill will bother to file, and his dad is 81 years old, which means he can earn as much as he wants without any deduction from his Social Security retirement benefits (if he’s receiving them).
It’s perfectly legal to work and receive Social Security at the same time. http://www.ssa.gov/retire2/whileworking.htm
Roger,
I do know for a fact that you know much more about SS than I do. I only get to read the horror stories of the waste, fraud and abuse…….some could be urban myths. I did know someone who was on welfare, got social security and had diabetes and got every form of assistance known to man and there was nothing wrong with her that I could see. But then it was hard to tell with her constant drinking and partying. That was in Oklahoma somewhere between 85-88.
By the way, the term waste, fraud and abuse, I got from the Army years ago. We had a hot line number we could call to report it! I don’t like any type of government abuse and it’s endless………….. Some is preventable, some not. Sometimes, the fix is worse than the problem.
41 (continued)
Mac seems to think Social Security is a means-tested welfare benefit. It’s not. It’s an earned benefit based on your work history, and like any other pension. There’s no limit on how much wealth or other income you can have, because SOCIAL SECURITY IS NOT WELFARE OR A GIFT FROM TAXPAYERS; you’re simply getting benefits you earned by paying taxes during your working life for your future benefits.
41 (continued)
Mac’s confusion is intentional. Wingnuts want to portray Social Security as welfare to make it easier to destroy it.
Mac may not be a “troll” in the same sense that Kevin Carns is, that is, she’s not a paid shill for the GOP party line … but she’s a wingnut liar.
Roger, Thanks for the links, I will look at them. Means testing social security is a fix for it. Millionaires don’t need it.
84
Anecdotal stories are not useful for evaluating a program like Social Security. When I was in Army AIT at Fort Sill, a lieutenant in our training company was caught stealing steaks from the mess hall for his personal backyard barbecues. That doesn’t mean the whole Army, or even Fort Sill, was corrupt. In an organization as big as the Army you’re bound to have some bad apples. Of course there are people who commit welfare, industrial insurance, unemployment insurance, and Social Security fraud. That problem is hardly unique to government; corporations and small businesses also get robbed, embezzled from, and defrauded.
I would only note that all of the massive frauds to hit the headlines in recent years have occurred in the corporate world. Government programs are policed much better than anything in the private sector, and shareholders are far more vulnerable than taxpayers — except when politicians deliberately fling taxpayer dollars at their friends and supporters like Halliburton.
One reason we have laws requiring public bidding on government contracts is to prevent corruption and fraud. No administration in history has so flagrantly disregarded these laws and squandered as much taxpayer money on baksheesh as the Bush administration. How can you, with a clear conscience, be the shameless apologist for these crooks that you are? And you complain about “waste, fraud, and abuse” in government? My dear, the GOP is the government — and you spend all your time and effort here defending them, no matter what.
That doesn’t say much for you, Mac. You make it hard for me to respect you, much less try to defend you.
Roger,
I support the war and I voted for Bush and generally support what he does. I do have my issues/differences with the Republican party. I am pro-choice, I was ready to choke Michael Brown and the LA Gov and Mayor Nagel – all three for the Katrina disaster. I don’t like hardly anything that Homeland Security has done since their birth!
88
“Means testing social security is a fix for it. Millionaires don’t need it.” Commentby sgmmac— 7/25/06@ 12:47 am
No, means testing is not a “fix,” it’s a political gimmick designed to undermine the broad popular support that currently exists for Social Security.
Whether a millionaire qualifies for Social Security depends on her/his source of income. I grew up with a kid whose aunt married one of the Hershey brothers, outlived her husband, and had no kids. When she passed, his mother got her estate; and when she passed, he got what was left. This guy has never worked a day in his life, he’s my age (over 60) and spent his entire adult life managing his investments and living on investment income, and he is NOT eligible for Social Security.
Bill Gates will qualify for Social Security not because he owns $40 billion of Microsoft stock, but because Microsoft always paid him a salary as CEO — in the old days, when Gates was a mere billionaire, his salary was around $100,000 or $200,000 a year. Enough to max out his FICA tax contribution.
As you probably know, Mac, there is a ceiling on FICA taxes — above a certain amount of earnings (a little over 100K), you don’t pay FICA taxes on additional earnings. High earners naturally pay the maximum FICA tax. You’re saying those paying the most FICA taxes shouldn’t get ANY benefits? By what rationale? Would you argue that the richest shareholders shouldn’t get any dividends because they don’t need them? It’s the same logic. Or, I should say, lack of logic.
Means-testing SS turns it into welfare. SS was never intended to be welfare; it’s an earned benefit. If you work and pay FICA taxes, you get it. How hard is that to understand? Why do you want to fuck with that simple formula? Unless you have an ulterior political agenda that is hostile to SS’s survival …
91
OK, Mac, I can go with that. That’s a more independent streak than any real troll ever shows. Trolls aren’t allowed to deviate from the party line. And trolls never, ever criticize any Republican, or anything any Republican does.
Halliburton………. Brown & Root (owned by Halliburton) has been doing business with the Army for years. My first experience with them was in Bosnia, then Kosovo, now Iraq. They do make soldiers lives much better in combat zones with their life support, they also make billions……………
Hey, JCH…you want to talk about what a great job your old heeero Ronny Ray-Gun did in Lebanon?
How many Marines is your new heeero Georgy Sock-In-The-Pants going to turn into sitting ducks?
91
However, you shill the GOP line, without getting past the empty bumper sticker slogans to the truth of matters, distressingly too often.
One thing I must tell you is that rightwingers have an exceedingly well organized, well financed, and sophisticated propaganda machine — not constrained by truth.
One of their specialties is using e-mail to circulate fictitious allegations against liberals and Democrats. Here are some web sites you can use to check whether a particular assertion has substance or is bullshit. Be forewarned that 98% of what you read on the internet from wingers is bullshit. All of these “debunkers” require you to type in a search word or phrase.
http://snopes.com/ – the “urban legends” web site; the “gold standard” for debunking internet b.s.; but doesn’t always have what you’re looking for, which is why other sources are necessary.
http://mediamatters.org/ – this is David Brock’s web site, and has a progressive slant.
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?DocID=153 – is a nonpartisan website run by the University of Pennsylvania that “aims to reduce the level of deception and confusion in U.S. politics.”
92
No, I don’t have a secret agenda to do in SS. I think the overall concept of SS was to provide additional income for people in their old age to help cover expenses from their lost salary, in other words to supplement their pension plans.
For many millions, it has become the sole income in their golden years. That’s why I said it’s become bastardized. It’s also changed significantly with the addition of women into the workforce.
91
Next time you read one of those apocryphal stories that circulates on the internet, run it through one of those debunkers.
Here’s a sample classic:
“Our Senators and Congressmen don’t pay in to Social Security, and, of course, they don’t collect from it. The reason is that they have a special retirement plan that they voted for themselves many years ago. For all practical purposes, it works like this: When they retire, they continue to draw their same pay, until they die, except that it may be increased from time to time, by cost of living adjustments. For instance, former Senator Bradley, and his wife, may be expected to draw $7,900,000, with Mrs. Bradley drawing $275,000 during the last year of her life. This is calculated on an average life span for each. This would be well and good, except that they paid nothing in on any kind of retirement, and neither does any other Senator or Congressman. This fine retirement comes right out of the General Fund: our tax money. While we who pay for it all, draw an average of $1000/month from Social Security.
“Imagine for a moment that you could structure a retirement plan so desirable that people would have extra deducted so that they could increase their own personal retirement income. A retirement plan that works so well, that Railroad employees, Postal Workers, and others who aren’t in it, would clamor to get in. That is how good Social Security could be, if only one small change were made. That change is to jerk the Golden Fleece retirement out from under the Senators and Congressmen, and put them in Social Security with the rest of us. Then watch how fast they fix it. If enough people receive this, maybe one or some of them along the way, might be able to help. How many can YOU send it to?”
“Comments: It’s true that members of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives enjoy a relatively generous government pension plan — some say too generous — but this email rant offers very little else in the way of accuracy.
“Under a law enacted in 1983, all members of Congress both contribute to and receive benefits from the Social Security system. Upon retirement, members receive either a combination of federal pension and Social Security benefits or Social Security alone, depending upon when their term of service started and how they configured their individual plan. Members elected after 1983 pay into the Federal Employees Retirement System. Members elected before 1983 participate in the older Civil Service Retirement Program. In both cases, members of Congress contribute to the plans at a slightly higher rate than ordinary federal employees.
“As of 2002, 411 retired members were receiving benefits under CSRS at an average rate of $55,788 per year and 71 were receiving benefits under FERS (or a combination of CSRS and FERS) with $41,856 per year in average benefits. Members do not automatically receive lifetime pensions. How much they receive and how long they receive it depends on many factors, including age, length of service (including military) and choice of plans, etc. So, while it’s conceivable that a few may receive pay-outs totalling more than a million dollars by the time they die, they would be the exception, not the rule.”
The story about three POWs handing notes to Jane Fonda, who turned the notes over to North Vietnamese prison guards, resulting in the POWs being beaten to death, has been exposed as a fake. You can find that one on Snopes.com.
The famous photo of a young John Kerry posing in front of a huge Vietcong flag also is a fake. So is a notorious “photo” of Kerry allegedly posing with North Vietnamese officials at a North Vietnamese war museum. A statement attributed to book written by a famous North Vietnamese general crediting Kerry with winning the Vietnam War for the communists also is a fake; the book doesn’t exist, and the general (who is real) never made such a statement, nor did any other North Vietnamese political or military figure.
These are examples of the vicious lies that spew out of the rightwing hate factories.
I haven’t heard any of those things about Kerry. I heard the one about Fonda, she did enough to inspire every soldier, sailor and airman to hate her without notes……….
Hey Smeg, I’ve got a Chicago Tribune article that you might want to read as well. I’m gonna paste it. William Rood had not spoken of his Viet Nam experience until this essay when he felt he had to tell the truth.
Chicago Tribune editor breaks silence, confirms events that lead to Kerry’s silver star
Courtesy of Josh Marshal, here’s is the 1,700 word essay describing the actions that lead to Kerry’s Silver Star by Chicago Tribune editor William B. Rood who was there that day and is the only other officer involved in that operation who is still alive today. Read the whole thing, it is remarkable and once again destroys the lies spewed by John O’Neill and Roy Hoffman and the others involved in the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush campaign. Here are some selected excerpts:
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago—three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn’t deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us—the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry’s service—even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry’s critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they’re not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It’s gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
…
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O’Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry’s Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a “teenager” in a “loincloth.” I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the “lone” attacker at that site, as O’Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
…
Known over radio circuits by the call sign “Latch,” then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a “shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy” and that it “may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers.”
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry’s and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry’s inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.
Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann’s congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique’s were encouraged.
There you have it…
Smeg, forget the excerpts . . . here’s the original article copied and pasted from the Tribune . . . RuFuK, you might read this as well.
FEB. 28, 1969: ON THE DONG CUNG RIVER
`This is what I saw that day’
By William B. Rood
Chicago Tribune
Published August 22, 2004
There were three swift boats on the river that day in Vietnam more than 35 years ago–three officers and 15 crew members. Only two of those officers remain to talk about what happened on February 28, 1969.
One is John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate who won a Silver Star for what happened on that date. I am the other.
For years, no one asked about those events. But now they are the focus of skirmishing in a presidential election with a group of swift boat veterans and others contending that Kerry didn’t deserve the Silver Star for what he did on that day, or the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts he was awarded for other actions.
Many of us wanted to put it all behind us–the rivers, the ambushes, the killing. Ever since that time, I have refused all requests for interviews about Kerry’s service–even those from reporters at the Chicago Tribune, where I work.
But Kerry’s critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they’re not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It’s gotten harder and harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.
Even though Kerry’s own crew members have backed him, the attacks have continued, and in recent days Kerry has called me and others who were with him in those days, asking that we go public with our accounts.
I can’t pretend those calls had no effect on me, but that is not why I am writing this. What matters most to me is that this is hurting crewmen who are not public figures and who deserved to be honored for what they did. My intent is to tell the story here and to never again talk publicly about it.
I was part of the operation that led to Kerry’s Silver Star. I have no firsthand knowledge of the events that resulted in his winning the Purple Hearts or the Bronze Star.
But on Feb. 28, 1969, I was officer in charge of PCF-23, one of three swift boats–including Kerry’s PCF-94 and Lt. j.g. Donald Droz’s PCF-43–that carried Vietnamese regional and Popular Force troops and a Navy demolition team up the Dong Cung, a narrow tributary of the Bay Hap River, to conduct a sweep in the area.
The approach of the noisy 50-foot aluminum boats, each driven by two huge 12-cylinder diesels and loaded down with six crew members, troops and gear, was no secret.
Ambushes were a virtual certainty, and that day was no exception.
Instructions from Kerry
The difference was that Kerry, who had tactical command of that particular operation, had talked to Droz and me beforehand about not responding the way the boats usually did to an ambush.
We agreed that if we were not crippled by the initial volley and had a clear fix on the location of the ambush, we would turn directly into it, focusing the boats’ twin .50-caliber machine guns on the attackers and beaching the boats. We told our crews about the plan.
The Viet Cong in the area had come to expect that the heavily loaded boats would lumber on past an ambush, firing at the entrenched attackers, beaching upstream and putting troops ashore to sweep back down on the ambush site. Often, they were long gone by the time the troops got there.
The first time we took fire–the usual rockets and automatic weapons–Kerry ordered a “turn 90” and the three boats roared in on the ambush. It worked. We routed the ambush, killing three of the attackers. The troops, led by an Army adviser, jumped off the boats and began a sweep, which killed another half dozen VC, wounded or captured others and found weapons, blast masks and other supplies used to stage ambushes.
Meanwhile, Kerry ordered our boat to head upstream with his, leaving Droz’s boat at the first site.
It happened again, another ambush. And again, Kerry ordered the turn maneuver, and again it worked. As we headed for the riverbank, I remember seeing a loaded B-40 launcher pointed at the boats. It wasn’t fired as two men jumped up from their spider holes.
We called Droz’s boat up to assist us, and Kerry, followed by one member of his crew, jumped ashore and chased a VC behind a hooch–a thatched hut–maybe 15 yards inland from the ambush site. Some who were there that day recall the man being wounded as he ran. Neither I nor Jerry Leeds, our boat’s leading petty officer with whom I’ve checked my recollection of all these events, recalls that, which is no surprise. Recollections of those who go through experiences like that frequently differ.
With our troops involved in the sweep of the first ambush site, Richard Lamberson, a member of my crew, and I also went ashore to search the area. I was checking out the inside of the hooch when I heard gunfire nearby.
Not long after that, Kerry returned, reporting that he had killed the man he chased behind the hooch. He also had picked up a loaded B-40 rocket launcher, which we took back to our base in An Thoi after the operation.
John O’Neill, author of a highly critical account of Kerry’s Vietnam service, describes the man Kerry chased as a “teenager” in a “loincloth.” I have no idea how old the gunner Kerry chased that day was, but both Leeds and I recall that he was a grown man, dressed in the kind of garb the VC usually wore.
The man Kerry chased was not the “lone” attacker at that site, as O’Neill suggests. There were others who fled. There was also firing from the tree line well behind the spider holes and at one point, from the opposite riverbank as well. It was not the work of just one attacker.
Our initial reports of the day’s action caused an immediate response from our task force headquarters in Cam Ranh Bay.
Congratulatory message
Known over radio circuits by the call sign “Latch,” then-Capt. and now retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann, the task force commander, fired off a message congratulating the three swift boats, saying at one point that the tactic of charging the ambushes was a “shining example of completely overwhelming the enemy” and that it “may be the most efficacious method of dealing with small numbers of ambushers.”
Hoffmann has become a leading critic of Kerry’s and now says that what the boats did on that day demonstrated Kerry’s inclination to be impulsive to a fault.
Our decision to use that tactic under the right circumstances was not impulsive but was the result of discussions well beforehand and a mutual agreement of all three boat officers.
It was also well within the aggressive tradition that was embraced by the late Adm. Elmo Zumwalt, then commander of U.S. Naval Forces, Vietnam. Months before that day in February, a fellow boat officer, Michael Bernique, was summoned to Saigon to explain to top Navy commanders why he had made an unauthorized run up the Giang Thanh River, which runs along the Vietnam-Cambodia border. Bernique, who speaks French fluently, had been told by a source in Ha Tien at the mouth of the river that a VC tax collector was operating upstream.
Ignoring the prohibition against it, Bernique and his crew went upstream and routed the VC, pursuing and killing several.
Instead of facing disciplinary action as he had expected, Bernique was given the Silver Star, and Zumwalt ordered other swifts, which had largely patrolled coastal waters, into the rivers.
The decision sent a clear message, underscored repeatedly by Hoffmann’s congratulatory messages, that aggressive patrolling was expected and that well-timed, if unconventional, tactics like Bernique’s were encouraged.
What we did on Feb. 28, 1969, was well in line with the tone set by our top commanders.
Zumwalt made that clear when he flew down to our base at An Thoi off the southern tip of Vietnam to pin the Silver Star on Kerry and assorted Bronze Stars and commendation medals on the rest of us.
Error in citation
My Bronze Star citation, signed by Zumwalt, praised the charge tactic we used that day, saying the VC were “caught completely off guard.”
There’s at least one mistake in that citation. It incorrectly identifies the river where the main action occurred, a reminder that such documents were often done in haste and sometimes authored for their signers by staffers. It’s a cautionary note for those trying to piece it all together. There’s no final authority on something that happened so long ago–not the documents and not even the strained recollections of those of us who were there.
100 Rabbit- Check out the Bui Tin interview (http://www.viet-myths.net/buitin.htm). Is this a fake also?
103 “RuFuK, you might read this as well.”
Isn’t it a pretty rash assumption that he can read?
41 “Does Bill Gates need social security? Does his father draw his social security checks on top of his salary at the foundation?”
Who cares?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14020234/
I suppose THIS is a left wing conspiracy too? I expect this guy to have a “heart attack” any day.
LeftTurn, an alternative theory is that congressional Republicans are trying to distance themselves from the administration so that their poll numbers won’t sag as badly as the president’s. Republicans may be able to hold onto Congress as long as the 2006 elections don’t turn into a referendum on Bush.
We’ll be seeing lots more signs of congressional “independence” in the next few months . . . undoubtedly with Rove approval. He’s a smart man.
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
Hey – it’s a Fox show.
Commentby For the Clueless— 7/24/06@ 11:52 pm
That’s okay. The “You, sir, are worse than Hitler” is a Simpson’s quote. It’s not really fair to quote a show someone doesn’t watch, but I’ve been doing it so long, the rest of society is just going to have to deal with it.
48
You didn’t hear that it was in trouble from Clinton. Acknowledging a shortfall and proposing a way to deal with it is just good governance. Clinton’s solution was to use budget surpluses to repay the pilfering that had been done since 1983. Bush’s “solution” was to kill the program and steal another trillion from it to larder Wall Street. Much like the Medicare Part D drug “benefit” was a payoff to pharmaceutical manufacturers.
97.
I think the overall concept of SS was to provide additional income for people in their old age to help cover expenses from their lost salary, in other words to supplement their pension plans.
No, pension plans were a fantastic dream for most Americans in 1935.
Although when Frances Perkins explained the idea of Social Security to President Roosevelt, FDR is reported to have said: “OK, now go out and make me do it.”
Whether or not that is true, FDR had a desire to provide protection from poverty to American workers:
“No greater tragedy exists in modern civilization than the aged, worn-out worker who after a life of ceaseless effort and useful productivity must look forward for his declining years to a poorhouse. A modern social consciousness demands a more humane and efficient arrangement.”
[Albany, N.Y., – February 28, 1929 – Governor Franklin D. Roosevelt, Message to N.Y. State Legislature]
In his biography of Roosevelt, William E. Leuchtenburg related a story of a gardener on the Roosevelt’s Hyde Park estate who, when he could no longer work and no relative could take him in, was lucky enough to have the Roosevelt family provide him a cottage to live in and food to eat. When his father told him that the old man otherwise would likely have gone off to a shack in the woods to die, FDR thought such a prospect a tragedy that shouldn’t be prevented only by random charity.
Social Security was envisioned as that mechanism. There are millions of people for whom Social Security benefits are there sole means of support.
39.
Quite true, although nothing I said was meant to contradict your statement. You didn’t think I was speaking out against Social Security, did you?
I collect Social Security. It’s a good thing.
97
Has it occurred to you that some people don’t have company pensions, and don’t make enough to be able to save for retirement? How much can a chicken farmer in Arkansas making $5.15 an hour put into a 401(k)?
112.
Betrayed by a homonym, the last sentence should be:
There are millions of people for whom Social Security benefits are their sole means of support.
Timmy Lieman’s latest lie – that he turned in more signatures than REPUBLICAN Sam Reed said he did is actually just a mistake. Turns out, Timmy thought he was being asked how many times he voted for Rossi, to which he replied “More than 300,000.”
Rabbit 114 – Not my fucking problem…
The real number of illegal aliens in the U.S. is not 12 million, as the federal government claims, but closer to 30 million. Democrats love this!!
The IRS – known for hounding citizens who make mistakes on their returns – has paid out $10 billion in refunds and credits to illegal aliens who used fraudulent Social Security numbers, and it has no intention of going after those who’ve made fraudulent claims.
Over 3,000 illegal aliens suspected of murdering Americans have fled to Mexico, where they often live openly and without fear of arrest. Many still vote Democrat.
117.
Have you paid your debt to Goldy.
No?
Then STFU!!!
Harry, you and I are in harmony on our thoughts regarding Social Security. My own family has several stories that come out of the 1920’s and the Great Depression that underscore the MENDACITY, CRUELTY, AND EVIL OF MUCH OF THE rEPUBLICAN AGENDA.
It would take someone like John Steinbeck to catalog the sheer overwhelming inhumanity of the Bush’s Administration and their handling of Hurrican Katrina.
104
Link to original article, please. If you can, that is.
104
Of course I see many references on rightwing websites to the so-called “Bui Tin interview,” but given wingers’ propensity for distortion, inaccuracy, and outright lying, I’d like to see the original article before I respond.
I will, however, note this. Prima facie, the alleged interview was not conducted by a journalist, but by “an attorney from Minnesota.” Since when do Minnesota attorneys conduct interviews for the historical record with North Vietnamese military and government figures? Sounds more like someone with a point to make or a political agenda, not an objective journalist.
Supposing that Bui Tin did make the statement attributed to him. That makes it his opinion. It’s damned obvious, to anyone who lived through that time, that neither LBJ nor Nixon listened to the antiwar protesters, whose effect on U.S. policy was essentially nonexistent. The U.S. withdrew from Vietnam because middle-class voters came to believe the war was unwinnable and grew tired of burying their sons, not because college students were protesting in the streets.
Another point to make about Vietnam is that U.S. military strategy was fatally flawed. We didn’t win the war, because we couldn’t win it, with the strategy that was pursued. It’s elementary that you can’t win a war simply by attempting to attrite the opposing force. Yet that’s exactly what Westmoreland tried to do. To show how poorly this worked, North Vietnam ended the war with more population than it started the war with — they made babies faster than the U.S. military could kill them.
The U.S. never succeeded in shutting down the flow of men and materiel into South Vietnam from North Vietnam. For nearly all of my 13 months in Nam, I was stationed on the DMZ, and spent most of my tour looking across into North Vietnam. It was relatively quiet there — they didn’t come through that way. They came down the Ho Chi Minh Trail, which was not a highway or even a trail; it was a 100-mile wide swath of jungle. They moved supplies on bicycles and fuel in garden hoses; they crossed rivers on bamboo bridges that were submerged two feet under water so our pilots couldn’t see them from the air, and which could be rebuilt within 24 hours if our bombs destroyed them. The Trail couldn’t be cut by bombing.
It would have taken, at minimum, an invasion of North Vietnam to win the war. But that might have triggered a Chinese intervention, and then you’ve got the Korean War scenario all over again. China got the A-bomb in 1964, before the U.S. sent troops to Vietnam. So if you try to nuke the Chinese troops flooding into N. Vietnam in response to a U.S. invasion, you’ve got the Chinese dropping A-bombs on U.S. forces and installations in Vietnam. Even Nixon rejected the use of nuclear weapons in the Vietnam war as too risky. And then you had the gorilla of the Soviet Union in the background; a U.S. invasion of N. Vietnam might have gotten the two communist giants to join in common cause against the Americans, and repaired the rift in the communist world. Do you really think LBJ’s advisers and then Nixon’s advisers didn’t weigh all of the options and scenarios? They all reached the same conclusion — doing what would have been militarily necessary to defeat North Vietnam risked starting World War III. That’s why they didn’t do it.
Wingers can blather all they want about how antiwar protesters caused America to lose the war. They didn’t. The war was decided on the battlefield by military factors. All you have to do is look at the U.S. tactics to see why we couldn’t win. The enemy had forty years to prepare the battlefield. The American strategy and tactics invariably allowed the enemy to choose the time, place, and terms of battle. Our generals sent our guys out to walk around until they got shot at — that was the only way we could find the enemy. Many of the engagements began with ambushes, and our guys always had to fight uphill, usually against an enemy dug into prepared fortifications, and if the enemy was outnumbered or getting the worst of it he usually could disengage at will and regroup without effective pursuit or interference. It’s impossible to win a war fought under those conditions.
The rightwing claim that antiwar protesters cost America the Vietnam War is sheer nonsense. North Vietnam won because they devised effective strategies to neutralize American firepower, materiel, and technological advantages and mastered the battlefield with superior tactics. It’s that simple.
122- As usual, libs live in a dream world where common sense does not apply. Only in a dream world is it possible to show Vietnam war protestors carrying Viet Cong flags on TV without giving a huge morale boost to the enemy. If you really don’t think the antiwar protests encouraged N.Vietnam to keep fighting you are childishly naive.
Of course you are correct that the war plan was flawed; it was concocted by LBJ and his band of fellow libs with the idea that we should apply only limited force with the objective being to persuade N. Vietnam to give up its attempt to conquer the south. It was a foolishly naive liberal strategy, with predictable results, and a perfect example of why liberals have no concept of how to win a war.
Goldwater pointed out that trying to win by attrition was stupid and you libs called him a warmonger. Like now, the 60’s libs also blamed America first and called America the aggressor. You self-hating libs haven’t changed.
Rabbit – you said link on #104 but I think you meant #103 so am providing:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....i-news-hed
The reason I pasted the article is because when I provide the link only most people cannot open it – they get a registration page. I opened this when it was first published in 2004 and have been able to access it ever since. But, most people cannot. If you are willing to register, maybe it will open. I don’t know. If you do register, let me know if it still works.
Rabbit – you said link on #104 but I think you meant #103 so am providing:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....i-news-hed
The reason I pasted the article is because when I provide the link only most people cannot open it – they get a registration page. I opened this when it was first published in 2004 and have been able to access it ever since. But, most people cannot. If you are willing to register, maybe it will open. I don’t know. If you do register, let me know if it still works.
Eshaton also opens for me from my computer but not from the link above. I don’t know why. . . go figure! The only one above that I can open is TPMs. Anyhow, you could probably get the article – order it – if you really want. S
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....i-news-hed
http://www.chicagotribune.com/.....i-news-hed
I tried something else but it didn’t work so enough already.
Good job.
Good job.