My good friend Stefan and I had a bit of a rapprochement yesterday. I parked my car next to his at the voter registration challenge hearing — his personalized plates and David Irons bumper sticker were a bit of a giveaway — and apparently, neither of us slashed the other’s tires. We even exchanged a few pleasantries, though he claimed not recognize me, saying I have a common looking face or something. (Yeah… us whiney, bearded, 40-somethingish Jewish guys all look alike.)
Anyway, I could only hang around for part of the first session — in which only one of fifteen challenged voters actually showed up — but I think Stefan neatly sums up the subtext of yesterday’s hearing, and indeed, the entire GOP-manufactured election integrity controversy:
It’s conceivable that not all of the no-shows are real people.
Yes, it is conceivable. It’s also conceivable, I suppose, that each and every one of the no shows belongs to the contingent of North Korean soldiers I keep quartered in my basement. Or perhaps, they’re just average citizens, otherwise eligible to vote, who may have innocently, but improperly, registered at a rented mail box. Or, they may have been wrongly challenged, but busy.
The point is, nearly all the allegations of fraud and corruption that Stefan and his GOP cohorts have been flinging about for over a year, are, in fact, conceivable. But what the GOP has consistently failed to do is provide actual proof.
No doubt, at any one time, the voter registration rolls are filled with errors; erroneous registrations are being added and corrected every day. As a case in point, in the few weeks between the time Sotelo “personally” compiled her list of allegedly improper registrations, and the time she filed her Oct. 26 challenge, at least 126 of the voters on the list had already, unprompted, and on their own initiative, fixed their voter registration.
So it is important, when looking at this trumped up controversy, to focus on what exactly the problem is that the GOP hopes to solve? Are there hundreds of King County voters (out of 1.1 million) improperly registered at non-residential mailing addresses at any one time? Most likely, yes. Is there a scrap of evidence that any of these individuals are otherwise ineligible to vote? Well, if the GOP had actual evidence of fraud, you can be damn sure they’d let us know. So what is the problem?
These voter registration challenges are typical of all the other GOP allegations of fraud, which together amount to a collection of hearsay and conjecture intended to undermine the public’s faith in our electoral system. And like all of the Republican sponsored election “reforms”, the solution they propose is intended to fix a problem that doesn’t exist… disenfranchising innocent voters in the process.
For example, I’m told that the GOP’s original list of 1944 challenges includes the name of a prominent, local musician who registered at a mail box to protect his privacy. One’s voter registration is a public record, and unable to qualify for the address confidentiality program available to victims of domestic violence and sexual crimes, the musician has now apparently opted to no longer vote. Lori Sotelo has forced him to choose between his franchise and his privacy… and he chose the latter. Hardly a victory for the democratic process.
Another example is Terri Carpenter, the single voter who showed up at the 4:30 session to defend her ballot, a woman of unsteady means, whose one link to stability has been the Redmond mailbox she’s rented for the past 15 years. At the time she rented the mailbox, she had been living in a trailer on a nearby parking lot, and has resided, on and off, in various nearby locations ever since. Currently she is living on “recreational property” near Carnation. Should Sotelo succeed in casting out her ballot, we will have achieved little more than stripping the most basic right of citizenship from a woman, who despite her difficult circumstances, made the effort not only to vote, but to defend that vote before a roomful of strangers and a gaggle of media.
And then there is the story of David Combs of Issaquah, who, suffering from severe illness, has become homeless, living in his car, sometimes at the parking lot of the mailbox store he uses as an address. He came to the 6:30 session to beg for his vote, and upon leaving, flipped a picture of his 12-year-old daughter at his GOP accusers, demanding that Sotelo explain to her why her father doesn’t have the right to vote.
Yes, in all three cases the voters were improperly registered, and perhaps Sotelo will succeed in having their ballots disqualified. But to what end?
Out of the nearly 2000 voters that the Republicans challenged — hundreds of them wrongly — less than 184 ballots are expected to come before the canvassing board. All of the challenges may be denied due to the GOP’s failure to meet statutory requirements, though dozens would survive a challenge regardless. But there will not be a single scrap of evidence presented that a single one of these ballots was fraudulently cast by an individual not otherwise eligible to vote.
If the Republicans were truly interested cleaning up the voter rolls, they would have cooperated with King County Elections, and provided their list before the rolls were frozen, rather than filing a sloppy challenge just days before the election. But the problem that the GOP is trying to solve has nothing to do with electoral integrity, for the GOP’s problem with elections is its growing failure to win them in a county and state that continues to trend Democratic.
The GOP is willing to win elections by hook or by crook — by unfairly destroying the public’s faith in Democrats, or by disenfranchising tens of thousands of Democratic voters. That is what this dispute has always been about, from the day it became apparent that the Gregoire-Rossi race was headed for a recount.
You make cogent points.
But illegal voters are illegal voters regardless of the excuse.
We, the republicans, have it right.
You, the lefties, have it wrong.
The sooner you realize that, the faster we’ll all get back to our prosperity…
kip;
soooo eager to disenfranchise? Just so I understand, are you saying that you’d rather someone lose their vote if their only problem is an incorrect address, even if they prove that they’re in every other way eligable?
Actually, it seems to me that the law needs some work, once I figure out what I think is the proper solution that both protects voters rights and minimizes fraud, I’ll call my rep.
No….I don’t.
It’s just that if a voter is illegal, their vote shouldn’t count. Can we agree on that?
If the law needs changing…great…change it.
But the law is the law and it has to be followed, agreed?
Incorrect address — is — against the law for voting. You agree, right?
It’s obvious that the Republican party is trying to wear out the citizens of Washington with their false claims of voter fraud. That way when the REAL VOTER FRAUD is exposed, Washingtonians will be too worn out to pay attention. ‘Some people say’ that 99% of the Republican votes are fraudulant and that although they are extremely well financed by the North Koreans, there are actually only about 5000 Republicans residing in Washington state.
Citizen..what on earth are you talking about?
I don’t think this was really about discouraging the 2000 or so challenged voters from voting. This was a PR gimmick intended to remind voters about the supposed problems in KCRE just before the election. As such, it was a magnificent failure that blew up in Iron’s lap.
So Kip… if the law is the law, you agree then that Lori Sotelo should by charged with 1000+ counts of perjury? The law is a bitch sometimes I suppose.
Kip,
‘Some people also say’ Republicans wouldn’t know a joke if it bit them on the butt. I just thought it was appropriate to make claims about Republicans that were as outragious as the claims they’re making about Democrats.
Over and over Vance or his surrogates have made statement to reporters about “massive voter fraud” that they couldn’t back up because they were lying from the very start.
Using half-baked methods to come up with a list of technically flawed voter registrations just before the election isn’t an attempt to fix problems, it’s an attempt to sabotage democracy!
by Goldy, 11/18/2005, 11:17 AM
“The GOP is willing to win elections by hook or by crook – by unfairly destroying the public’s faith in Democrats, or by disenfranchising tens of thousands of Democratic voters. That is what this dispute has always been about, from the day it became apparent that the Gregoire-Rossi race was headed for a recount.”
Tens of thousands is an order of magnitude leap from the 1900+ challenges filed recently. Typical Goldy hyperbole.
“Yes, in all three cases the voters were improperly registered, and perhaps Sotelo will succeed in having their ballots disqualified. But to what end?”
To the end that only legal voters are allowed to vote. I really don’t understand why Dems have such a problem with this. I agree the Reps did a poor job in their voter challenge. They also made a poor case in their election challenge. I sense a pattern forming here.
Amazing! The trollfucks are constantly in a lather about “illegal voters” — even though $4 million of litigation proved their complaints about a “stolen” governor’s election were completely unfounded — but we NEVER HEAR A SINGLE WORD FROM THEM ABOUT DISENFRANCHISED LEGAL VOTERS.
It’s simply incredible how these people support the idea of sending other people’s children to their deaths ostensibly to bring democracy to the Iraqi people, while having no concern at all for American citizens who are deprived of their right to vote by shenanigans like this month’s bullshit GOP voter challenges.
Once again Bush has shown he is a small person — too small to sit in the world’s largest chair.
“Troops’ Pain, Not Politics, Behind Murtha’s Stance
“By Andrea Stone, USA TODAY, USA TODAY
“(Nov. 18) – Every week, Rep. John Murtha makes the rounds at Walter Reed Army Medical Center to stand at the bedside of soldiers wounded in Iraq.
“On Thursday, the Pennsylvania Democrat could stand by no more. Belying his reputation as one of Congress’ most hawkish members, Murtha called for an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq.
“‘I feel very passionate about this,’ Murtha said in an emotional interview hours after his remarks. ‘I see a kid blown apart, and it breaks my heart.'”
Bush’s response? He called Murtha “a Michael Moore.” No discussion of issues. No debate over whether the war was a good idea, or whether Bush’s policy of “staying the course” is in the nation’s best interest. Nope. Just personal attacks and name calling against anyone who disagrees with him. In short, Bush behaves a whole lot like Roger Rabbit.
@9
The Republicans, I think, know they’re the minority. So the smaller the number of voters, the better they are (well, as long as they’re purging the lists)
RR @ 9
Every illegal vote disenfranches my legal vote – that’s why I’d like to see the voter rolls (even beyond Kinc Co) cleaned up.
re 1: Kip, here’s how it works. For every voter that you try to challenge in the attempt to win by disenfranchising voters, we will challenge 10 voters in Republican districts using the same rules as they play out in this contest. As rich Republicans appear– in a huff no doubt over the unfairness of the situation– it will be noted in the MSM no doubt, that Republicans refuse to live by the rules they themselves impose on others. The most egregious example being the war in Iraq that was started by Republican draft evaders.
You can get back to your prosperity now , Kip, but between now and 2006, I’d keep a close eye on the mail if you want your vote to count!
Someone who listed their address incorrectly is not an “illegal” voter. They are a voter who filled out a form improperly. Big difference.
Why not a poll tax? It would keep undesirables from voting, making my legal vote more important. Really, if you are poor or just barely making it, you don’t deserve to vote. Literacy tests, too, would be good, making sure that only people of a good backround and an understanding of our “traditonal values” should be allowed to vote.
@ 16
snarky but true ; )
Every illegal vote disenfranches my legal vote – that’s why I’d like to see the voter rolls (even beyond Kinc Co) cleaned up.
Would you mind if we disenfranchised you in the process of cleaning things up?
Because that’s what you’re advocating – disenfranchising legal voters to get a few improperly registered ones.
No one’s saying the voter rolls shouldn’t be cleaned up on an on-going basis (which they already are); We’re saying that half-assed research efforts by partisan hacks shouldn’t be the way to do it.
Bell@16
not a poll tax, property requirements! Same result, but better! (nobody worth anything doesn’t have a few acres around SOMEWHERE)
Anyways they could be using that poll tax to buy a nice lunch~
I am moving to Seattle next month. Any good places to sit around and discuss politics?
slackerswithadvanceddegrees.blogspot.com
Aexia @18
Who said I want to disenfranchise anybody? Unfortunately, sloppy work by party hacks is the result when KCE shows no previous interest in cleaning up the voter rolls.
@ 18
Every legal vote by undesirable poor folks or rock stars who want privacy disenfranchises my vote
A truer phrase was never uttered, my friend. Someday, only the Christian, and the propertied will be allowed to vote. That will be great day for America (and the GOP too!)
Rick @21 – No interest? Just because you say so? Every single day KCE works to keep the voter rolls up to date. At any one time, with 1.1 million voters there will be some people that have moved and not updated their records, did not fill out the form correctly or something else. This is NOT fraud and you guys have NO evidence that there is… well, 7 Republicans did commit fraud last time out, but I’ll give you a pass.
Kip @ 1
You state that “We, the republicans, have it right” but your actions seem to make that statement look like a lie. If you are doing “it right”, why are the republicans not doing “it rught” in every county in the state. The fact that the republicans only seem to have any energy for this in KC makes it clear that this is political and not about doing things that are right.
Oh, and by the way, don’t try the “we do it in KC because that is where the problems are” lie. Everyone knows that vote rolls are not materially better or worse in every county in the state.
Who said I want to disenfranchise anybody?
By defending the King County Republicans’ behaviour, you’re supporting the disenfranchisement of hundreds of legal voters.
Unfortunately, sloppy work by party hacks is the result when KCE shows no previous interest in cleaning up the voter rolls.
Let’s let Dean Logan respond
“We have done a lot of work this year to clean up our voter rolls. This year we’ve merged duplicate registrations of 9,100 voters and we continue to do this work between elections. In June we launched a massive PR campaign and mailed 1.1 million voters new registration cards and asked voters to partner with us to clean our voter rolls – and they responded. Thousands of voters reported duplication registrations and 73,000 voters were put on inactive status. We’ve removed 8,900 deceased names from the voter rolls. We’ve challenged and canceled the registrations of 675 felons. Seven people were prosecuted for voting twice in the 2004 General Election. If someone does vote twice, we will forward their case to the Prosecuting Attorney.
How is it not a problem that a resident of Carnation voted for City of Redmond ballot measures?
You also seem to imply that somehow it is ok violate state law to protect privacy (the musician). Do you really want individuals deciding on their own which laws apply and which one’s don’t really matter?
Tens of thousands is an order of magnitude leap from the 1900+ challenges filed recently. Typical Goldy hyperbole.
I believe he’s referring to the massive voterfile purges of alleged felons who weren’t actually the felons in question that occured in Florida and Ohio.
Rick @ 21
“Who said I want to disenfranchise anybody? Unfortunately, sloppy work by party hacks is the result when KCE shows no previous interest in cleaning up the voter rolls. “
I cannot tell from this response if you are just trying to torque off people, or whether you are simply ignorant of the situation here. But, KC was soliciting information from parties and others to help clean up the voter rolls.
Read the memos in my previous comment here: http://www.horsesass.org/my-co.....ent-109567
In short, the GOP could have submitted their lists (of dual register people, and their suspected mailbox dwellers) to KC and they would have used the information to clean up the rolls.
Goldy —
Your stories make me cry. How are homeless people supposed to vote? Is a legal residence a requirment for voting?
bj
Rick @13
Disenfranchising a legal voter has the same result as casting an illegal vote. It makes no difference whether a Republican votes twice, or keeps a Democrat from voting — the result is the same, a stolen election.
Easy answer…cuz I’ve heard it screamed at me….”if you don’t like the law, change it” If you are illegally registered, YOU CAN’T VOTE. Same as its been for the last 4 Democratic Governors, so stiff upper lip and all that, get a job and a place to live, and RTFM, and become a legal voter again, no vast right wing conspiracy, no brown shirts, just the law so follow it, and quit whining….enough….boring…..sour grapes..
Kip German @ 1
“But illegal voters are illegal voters regardless of the excuse.
We, the republicans, have it right.”
Nope. You have it wrong for several reasons. The GOP has not shown that any of these people are illegal voters. Most of them are entitled to vote (as defined in the WA State Constitution).
It is possible that some of the voters were improperly registered. The proper way of correcting that would have been to ask the voters to correct their registration information.
But the biggest reason the GOP is wrong is that they disenfranchised LEGAL voters by carelessness. In a democracy where VOTING IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT, carelessly disenfranchising a legal voter should be severly punished.
Don’t give us bullshit about each illegal voter disenfranchising you, since (1) the GOP never provided clear and convincing evidence that the voters were not eligible, and (2) the GOP could have provided the information to KC long before the election so that the GOP sloppiness did not disenfranchise legal voters.
@16
“Why not a poll tax? It would keep undesirables from voting, making my legal vote more important. Really, if you are poor or just barely making it, you don’t deserve to vote. Literacy tests, too, would be good, making sure that only people of a good backround and an understanding of our ‘traditonal values’ should be allowed to vote.”
That would eliminate the Republican vote, because they’re too cheap to pay a poll tax and too ignorant to pass a literacy test.
Put Up or Shut Up
In Congress tonight, House Republicans have maneuvered for a quick vote Friday of a Democratic lawmaker’s call for an immediate troop withdrawal from Iraq.
Let’s dispense with the public flogging of our troops’ efforts and put it to a vote. Either our lawmakers support the troops’ mission or they don’t. Time to go on the record instead of just pandering to the media, or playing the ambiguity game.
It’s go time.
@21
Rick = apologist for sloppy work by party hacks
@22
“Someday, only the Christian, and the propertied will be allowed to vote.”
History teaches us that people who aren’t allowed to vote with ballots often choose to vote with guns.
Reply to 26
“How is it not a problem that a resident of Carnation voted for City of Redmond ballot measures?”
It’s a problem if it’s true, but don’t expect us to accept a claim like this on the word of Republican liars. And even if that’s true, it doesn’t make KCE is staffed by crooks. They’re responsible for over 1 million voter registrations and you expect the rolls to be 100.000000% accurate despite the fact people are moving, dying, etc. every day? If you want that degree of accuracy, buddy, then put your money where your fat mouth is: Pay higher taxes for more KCE staff.
@29
“Many of Goldy’s readers and other good people are frequent attendees. We keep inviting the trolls to visit as well, but they’re wimps and wusses.”
Roger Rabbit attends Drinking Liberally very infrequently, but trollfuck prr attends even less frequently — namely, never, and especially not when he calls RR a “coward” and posts “I’ll be there.”
@30
“How are homeless people supposed to vote?”
By pressing a touch screen, punching chads, or filling in ovals on an Optiscan ballot, depending on which county they’re homeless in.
“Is a legal residence a requirment for voting?”
No. A homeless person has as much legal right to vote as you do. Some homeless people are veterans, whose moral right to vote greatly exceeds yours, if you never served in the military.
The difference between the Republicans attitude and the Democratic attitude is pretty simple really. Democrats want everybody who is a citizen of this country to be able to vote and they seek to make it as simple and easy as possible. The theory is that if everybody qualified votes Demoracy will work. There is no need for any rules making it more difficult to vote, as long as you vote only once.
The Republicans seek to disenfranchise as many voters as possible, regardless of whether they are citizens or not. There theory is that if you don’t fit in the mold of somebody who has a permanent address and some property, you are more likely to be a Democrat, therefore they want to make it difficult if not impossible for you to vote.
It”s as simple as that.
http://www.homesteadbook.com/blog
@34
“Let’s dispense with the public flogging of our troops’ efforts and put it to a vote.”
Nobody’s flogging our troops’ efforts, you fucking liar. All we want is a public debate over whether we should be there, and whether they should keep dying for — what? Come to think of it, what ARE we there for? What’s the administration’s reason-of-the-week this week?
But the warmongers don’t want a public debate. Their response to anyone who raises questions about their fucked-up policy and incompetent military execution is to call names and sic the FBI on them — same thing you rightwing bastards did during Vietnam, and look where that got us, 58000 American deaths for nothing. This time it’s 2000 deaths and counting for nothing. You assholes lost your military adventure in Iraq when you tortured innocent Iraqi civilians.
Why would he rocognize you Goldy? You’re not famous, that important, or worth remembering despite what you might think. Hardy, har-har.
Bullshit! All this whining………. for example: any reasonably intelligent person, no matter who they voter for, can coclude that the Governor the people voted in didn’t get in, and that Dean Logan is the very definition of corruption, arrogance, stupidness, condescention, and incompetence. And no, I don’t give a tinker’s fucking damn what some leftist liberal Judge in Chelan County has to say about it. Paybacks are a bitch leftist liberals; don’t be suprised when you all get bitten back. God help you and sunny Jesus!
stolen (with credit) from David T.
“It turns out that the Republicans actually added a law that doesn’t even exist to the complaint form, inserting in their own little make-believe offense at the bottom. In actuality, under Washington State Law, you can challenge a voter if you have reason to believe that the voter is actually living at another address, not just because you don’t believe they are living in the address they registered.”
that says it better than most, and is probably the best answer to Kip Germans’ rambling.
As to Joe the useless distractionary troll bastard; If a legislator wants my vote they had better vote to pull out right now. Nice try to hide from the KCGOP election scandal btw… Too bad we know all your BS tricks ;)
I have to agree with Goldy that the GOP voter challenge effort was a public relations faux pas. There are lots of ways this could have been done that would have been (1) more embarassing to Ron Sims, (2) more effective in correcting voter registration rolls, and (3) generated less ill will and more good will.
All that said, I cannot agree with Democrat attorney Ronald McDonald (or is that David McDonald) when he wants to make it practically impossible to challenge improperly registered voters. The requirement for the challenger to furnish an “actual residence address” is ridiculous, when someone is allowed to vote without putting an “actual residence address” on their voter registration form — and would make it impossible to challenge the registrations of non-existent people or ineligible voters (such as North Korean soldiers) who would be hard to locate.
At the same time, I would be in favor of allowing improperly registered voters to correct their registration addresses at any time up until the challenge hearing. However, existing law only allows corrections until three days before the election, while challenges can be filed up until the day before the election.
Wow… reality meet Kelly. Kelly reality. Now go take your meds.
richard: What about homeless voters? Am I missing something?
@46:
Go take yours. As the old adage goes: ‘The truth is out there…..’ If you think there’s nothing wrong with that election and the KC fraud deal; then you’re dumber than you look.
Kip German @ 1. Forgive my curiosity good sir, but you Republican heroes have been in charge for the last 12 years. The country is trillions
of dollars in debt, the war of liberation in Iraq is going to heck in a hand basket, and half the administration is under indictment. When exactly are we going to �get back to our prosperity�?�
indictment
“he claimed not recognize me”
Hey Goldy — you should have taken advantage of the situation, and told him you’re Roger Rabbit. Who knows, he might have believed you.
Oh, I forget — Stefan thinks Dean Logan is Roger Rabbit.
“Yes, it is conceivable. It’s also conceivable, I suppose, that each and every one of the no shows belongs to the contingent of North Korean soldiers I keep quartered in my basement. Or perhaps, they’re just average citizens, otherwise eligible to vote, who may have innocently, but improperly, registered at a rented mail box. Or, they may have been wrongly challenged, but busy.”
Or maybe they’re ordinary folks who, unlike Stefan, go to a job and work for a living, and can’t afford to lose income just because some stupid prick who can’t tell the difference between a Seattle address and an Aberdeen address is trying to take away their right to vote.
It must be nice to not work, but still get to live in an $800,000 house.
“The requirement for the challenger to furnish an “actual residence address” is ridiculous….”
Well, Richard, you guys whine that “the law is the law”, bbbut, bbut, bbbut, not, I guess, when it’s “ridiculous”. Funny how things change when the shoe is on the other foot.
The bar here should, in all fairness, be set as high as that for white collar criminals…approximately halfway to the moon. Fair enough?
Is Kelly the stupidest poster yet?
Day 10—VIGIL ON IMPROVED TRAFFIC CONGESTION DUE TO GASTAX INCREASE—
Traffic still sucks real bad…..
We are now in double figures in our Day count.
We will be saying the same thing when the Vigil hits triple figures and quadruple figures.
Why??? Because voters were lead to believe that this GasTax increase would improve congestion….it won’t.
@55:
Hey; chickenshit, don’t be using my post name. I wouldn’t for you dumbass.
Hey Cynical, I’m impressed … you can count all the way to double-figures!
Which means I won that off-list bet I made with another commenter. In thanks, I’ll buy you a beer next time you come to Montlake for DrinkingLiberally.
@44
“any reasonably intelligent person, no matter who they voter for, can coclude that the Governor the people voted in didn’t get in”
$2 million spent on the best GOP lawyers that money can buy says you’re full of shit.
@46
“The requirement for the challenger to furnish an ‘actual residence address’ is” the law, Richard. If you don’t like it, get the law changed.
@49
Anytime a GOP trollfuck uses the word “truth,” watch out!!!
Bullshit is sure to follow.
@55
“Is Kelly the stupidest poster yet?”
Not even close to Puttybutt.
Comment on 58
Any damn fool can count to 20, unless he’s had something amputated. The real test will come when Cynical runs out of toes.
P.S. to 64, if he counts his dick, he won’t be in trouble until Day 22.
P.S.S. to 64, that is, if he has one.
P.S.S.S. to 64, frankly, I think Mrs. Cynical has made him a eunuch.
Lucy, why do you have to challenge 10 republicans for each 1 democrat challenged ? Wouldn’t you want to “challenge” voters or registrations which are improper/illegal/wrong ? What is that number game ? Follow the law, it’s easy and pls do challenge voters you know are illegal/improper/double. And of course, if you challenge a republican voter improperly or without proof of correct address or any other misdeeds, I’m sure you will agree that you will then be guilty of perjury the same way as Sotelo ..right ?
I seems to me you and the rest of the LWI are not interested in fixing things or changing the law to correct things (as you want us to do), you are interested in polarizing.
So as long as you prefer illegalities over the law…you won’t get anywhere.
Only taxpayers vote. No 1040……No vote. Hell, the Democrats would lose 50% of their base!!!
@68
I’ll settle for disenfranchising 1 eligible GOP voter for each eligible Democratic voter you fuckers disenfranchise. We don’t need mathematical leverage to beat your pathetic candidates at the polls. The GOP’s stupidity, lies, and corruption are enough to ensure their defeat.
Wabbit @ 38
“Challenged voter Teri Carpenter … and now is living in a recreational vehicle in Carnation.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....es18m.html
Well now we agree this is a problem.
Sims and Logan haven’t made any effort to uncover this type of improper registration, you and I think it’s a problem, so who should address it?
Are you over caffinated today? Where did I say or even imply KCE was staffed by Crooks? You said crooks, not me. I also don’t remember saying I didn’t want to pay for things to be done right. Sure I demand value for my $ don’t you? I voted yes for sound transit before they added 2 billion to the cost and dropped 7 miles of track – that is not value.
remember the lesson of this election: The republicans can’t even cheat and win
The Repo’s are nothing but crooks and liars. Nothing more, nothing less. For an example just read PuddyBUTT’s comments, or cynnicalidiots, or xmasslag, or writeoff, or JCH, or PRISSY, or etc, etc, etc, all trash, no intelligence
Comment by Richard Pope— 11/18/05 @ 2:46 pm
Well said.
So much for the DOT they cannot clear I-90
@70
She’s entitled to vote in one county or the other. If she voted only once, there’s no fraud.
@40
hey Roger Rabbit.
My comment was apparently mis-interpretted. I actually was deeply saddened by Goldy’s stories of the folks whose votes were challenged because they had no place to live. My post was sincere, not sarcastic. And, I really do want to know how a homeless person registers to vote. Apparently, they can’t put a post office box as their address. What can they put as their residential address if they don’t have one? I was pretty sure that you didn’t have to have a permanent home in order to vote, but I’m wondering about the mechanics.
bj-too
PS: This becomes even more of a question if/when we go to all absentee voting.
Wow this KellyR’s face is red from all the Sharkansky kool-aid he has drowned his sorry self with:
Bullshit! All this whining………. for example: any reasonably intelligent person, no matter who they voter for, can coclude that the Governor the people voted in didn’t get in,
Bummer for the loser of such a close contest. But I think Washington is better off for having avoided the disaster of a Rossi Governorship.
and that Dean Logan is the very definition of corruption, arrogance, stupidness, condescention, and incompetence.
He’s your whipping boy for sure.
And no, I don’t give a tinker’s fucking damn what some leftist liberal Judge in Chelan County has to say about it.
A sympathetic Republican judge didn’t give you the answer you wanted. The Republican lawyers put up a lousy case. I’d want my money back.
Paybacks are a bitch leftist liberals; don’t be suprised when you all get bitten back. God help you and sunny Jesus!
I agree. If people like you are allowed to dominate the Republican party and you are allowed to seize the reigns of power – anything (all bad) is possible.
Kelly @ 44
“Bullshit! All this whining………. for example: any reasonably intelligent person, no matter who they voter for, can coclude that the Governor the people voted in didn’t get in….”
Bullshit. Apparently the person YOU wanted to win didn’t get in. The fact is, Gregoire got the most votes. After millions of dollars and a high-publicity trial, the Judge upheld Gregoire victory and found no evidence whatsoever of fraud.
You are an fucking idiot who, apparently, listens to too much talk radio!
“and that Dean Logan is the very definition of corruption, arrogance, stupidness, condescention, and incompetence.”
Again, you are an fucking idiot who, apparently, listens to too much talk radio! Free yourself!
” And no, I don’t give a tinker’s fucking damn what some leftist liberal Judge in Chelan County has to say about it.”
Of course you don’t. You wingnuts have never given a damn about rule of law. It’s “anything for power” for you motherfuckers.
“Paybacks are a bitch leftist liberals; don’t be suprised when you all get bitten back. God help you and sunny Jesus!”
Oh…I though you were an angry wingnut. I see you are mentally ill….
Richard Pope @ 46
“and would make it impossible to challenge the registrations of non-existent people or ineligible voters (such as North Korean soldiers) who would be hard to locate.”
As somebody pointed out the other day, only an idiot would challenge a non-existant voter based on the fact that they do not “live” at the address where they are registered.
In fact, the idea of challenging a non-existant “voter” at all is absurd. Just submit the information to the county for correction.
Official challenges are only needed for real people and offers those challenged due process. Imaginary people are not entitled to due process! Don’t ya think?
Annoy a liberal @ 68
“Lucy, why do you have to challenge 10 republicans for each 1 democrat challenged ? Wouldn’t you want to “challenge” voters or registrations which are improper/illegal/wrong ?”
I cannot speak for lucy, but I would think we just find anyone who contributed to George Bush’s and David Irons’ last campaign and then challenge them on being mentally incompetent.
Since they will not be judicially declared as such (as required by the Constitution), we will not be able to check the box that says “The individual challenged has been judicially declared mentally incompetent.”
No problem. We will follow the Republican’s lead and just add a new line that says: “The individual challenged has offered prima facia evidence of being mentally incompetent.”
Mountain Man @ 70
“Sims and Logan haven’t made any effort to uncover this type of improper registration, you and I think it’s a problem, so who should address it?”
Sorry, Gomer, your claim is incorrect.
yo @ 74
“So much for the DOT they cannot clear I-90 “
Sorry, Bozo, your assertion is unsupported by empirical evidence.
YIPES!!!!
dj, you had me totally fooled until I looked at post #77 and Post #78. I thought you were reasonably bright….not For The Clueless!!!!
Is it some mere coincidence that the For The Clueless post #77 addresses the exact same other posters comments that dj does at #78???
I didn’t think you played those games.
Are you posted using other identities as well??????
How many other multiple identity posters are there here???
Do this cheapens the discussion….as if you can go much below 2 cents!
Those 2 posts #77 and #78 were only 3 minutes apart.
What a coincidence!!!!
C’mon dj (aka For the Clueless)…time to ‘fess up!
“The Repo’s are nothing but crooks and liars. Nothing more, nothing less. For an example just read PuddyBUTT’s comments, or cynnicalidiots, or xmasslag, or writeoff, or JCH, or PRISSY, or etc, etc, etc, all trash, no intelligence
Comment by Chimp Patrol— 11/18/05 @ 4:46 pm”
Wow…now that IS intelligent MonkeyAss!! You are a bitchin’ intellectual.
So the GOP takes the blame for underrmining “the public’s faith in our electoral system” based solely on this challenge? Dream on, lefties, the public’s faith was undermined during the governor’s race recounts.
Or are the only portions of “the public” that you care about the portions that are either too whacked out on lefty frothing to focus on the facts or too stupid to remember that far back?
Gregoire and the dems take the blame for said “undermining” because they called for the hand recount way back when, knowing that by doing so they risked undermining “the public’s faith in our electoral system”. This “undermining” you are so worried about was a predicatble result of that recount demand. And Sims/Logan reinforced that undermining by their performance before/during amd after the recounts.
All your whining won’t change that fact, Goldy.
Mr C @ 85
These lefties never fail to amaze me. Cheating on a lefty blog via double identity? Way to go, dj!
Mr. Cynical
“Is it some mere coincidence that the For The Clueless post #77 addresses the exact same other posters comments that dj does at #78???”
Yep…it was a coincidence. But, I understand your question. The responses were surprisingly close in style and content!
Mr. Cynical @ 84
“Those 2 posts #77 and #78 were only 3 minutes apart.
What a coincidence!!!! C’mon dj (aka For the Clueless)…time to ‘fess up!”
There is one subtle variation between FTC’s style and mine. When I quote a previous post I italicize it and put quotation marks around it. I haven’t examined FTC’s style, but in this one post, at least, he did not use quotes—just italics.
BTW: Both FTC and I show up fairly frequently at Drinking Liberally. Come on out sometime, Mr. C. My offer to buy you a beer (remember that?) is still open. You will likely be able to meet FTC and dj.
So dj….are you saying you did not post the For The Clueless post?? Your answer sounds like you are doing the LEFTIST PINHEAD double-speak to me!!
I think it’s better if everyone posts consistently with 1 and only 1 identity.
So which one will you be in the future?
dj or For The Clueless???? Or both???
If you are having problems with multiple-identity syndrome, I believe there are many support groups in Seattle that will fuck you up even worse as you struggle to deal with your affliction!
zip @ 87
“These lefties never fail to amaze me. Cheating on a lefty blog via double identity? Way to go, dj!”
Hmmmm…Cynical at least asked whether I was posting as FTC. You could have waited for a response from me or FTC; instead, you went one step further and assumed it had to be true. Well you are incorrect.
Typical wingnut—not the least bit interested in actual evidence!
Mr Cynical @ 90
“So dj….are you saying you did not post the For The Clueless post?? Your answer sounds like you are doing the LEFTIST PINHEAD double-speak to me!!”
No doublespeak, Mr. C. I did not and have never posted as For The Clueless.
“I think it’s better if everyone posts consistently with 1 and only 1 identity.”
Yes…I post consistently as dj (except for a brief spell when Pacman and Puddybud renamed me to charmin). That spell was not unlike your Mr. Irrelevant spells—no attempt to hide the change.
“So which one will you be in the future?”
Unless I announce otherwise (as I did when using charmin) I’ll be posting as dj.
dj—
I see your point about you using “xxx” quotation marks.
However, I really don’t see For The Clueless posting others comments using italics until this time either.
I find it interesting that “thehim” also posts using italics but no quotation marks….just like For The Clueless
Does For The Clueless====the him
Does dj====thehim
Does dj====the clueless
dj says NO!
I guess it doesn’t matter what I think dj….but it doesn’t look good.
dj–
While I often disagree with you and even occassionally think you are full of shit….upon further review, I’d give you the benefit of the doubt except for one problem….
LEFTIST PINHEADS are notorious for their strategy of deny, deny, deny….
Oh well, it really doesn’t matter much one way or the other does it.
@1 to the streets!!!!!!!!!
I still ask that votes be clearly legal. Voters voting inaccruately or fraudulently need to be pulled aside and told how to vote correctly in the next election. It’s what makes a democracy strong. The Seattle Times Editorial staff just makes it weaker
98
“Voters voting inaccruately … need to be pulled aside and told how to vote correctly in the next election.”
And if they STILL don’t vote for the right candidates, they’ll be shot!
JCH @ 70
Only intelligent organic life votes. No brain — no vote.
Today’s Republicans are the same sort of people responsible for the 3/5 compromise in the constitution. They want more power than their numbers allow them and the only way to get that is to disenfranchise someone else. I’d still like to see where the constitution gives society the right to deny convicted felons ( the Reagan Administration excepted ) the right to vote. Every other major democracy allows it. Do you suppose it’s another Republican ploy to win elections?
Reply to 78
My apologies, bj. The rules governing voter registration and voting requirements are a mix of federal and state constitutional law, federal and state statutes, and federal and state court decisions. Consequently, voting rights law is complicated. At this time, there does not appear to be a uniform nationwide rule governing registration and voting by homeless people.
Beginning next year, a specific procedure for registering homeless voters will be established by a law passed by the 2005 legislature. New section RCW 29A.08.112, effective January 1, 2006, says:
“No person registering to vote, who meets all the qualifications of a registered voter in the state of Washington, shall be disqualified because of a nontraditional address being used as a residence address. Voters using such an address will be registered and assigned to a precinct based on the location provided. Voters without a traditional address will be registered at the county courthouse, city hall, or other public building near the area that the voter considers his or her residence. Registering at a nontraditional address will not disqualify a voter from requesting ongoing absentee voter status if the voter designates a valid mailing address. For the purposes of this section, ‘nontraditional address’ includes shelters, parks, or other identifiable locations that the voter deems to be his or her residence.”
Since this law is not yet in effect, for the time being, your question must be answered in another way. The right to vote is established by Article VI, Section 1 of the state constitution, which says:
“All persons of the age of eighteen years or over who are citizens of the United States and who have lived in the state, county, and precinct thirty days immediately preceding the election at which they offer to vote, except those disqualified by Article VI, Section 3 of this Constitution, shall be entitled to vote at all elections.”
The Secretary of State and county auditors do not have authority to deny voter registration to anyone who satisfies the above constitutional requirements, or to require additional qualifications. The state constitution only requires the voter to have “lived in” the precinct for 30 days prior to the election. It does not require the voter to provide a residence address; consequently, election officials can’t require one.
In the past, courts have struck down various restrictive voting requirements, e.g. poll taxes and literacy tests, as unconstitutional. Until 1972, most states (including Washington) required a person to live in the state for 1 year before registering to vote. Residency requirements were struck down by the U.S. Supreme Court in Dunn v. Blumstein, 405 U.S. 330, 31 L. Ed. 2d 274, 92 S. Ct. 995 (1972). The Washington Supreme Court quickly followed suit and struck down the state’s residency statute in Moen v. Erlandson, 80 Wn.2d 755, 498 P.2d 849 (1972). In Dunn, SCOTUS said 30 days is “ample” for states “to complete whatever administrative tasks are necessary to prevent fraud.” Most jurisdictions have adopted the 30-day residency requirement allowed by SCOTUS. Washington’s constitution was amended the same year (1972) to comply with the 30-day limit imposed by SCOTUS in the Dunn decision.
Several federal laws, e.g. the “Motor Voter Law” and the “Help America Vote Act,” regulate what the states can or can’t do with respect to voter registration and conducting elections. It’s important to understand these laws apply only to elections for federal offices, i.e., president and vice president, U.S. Senate, and congress. On the other hand, federal or state court decisions on the constitutionality of various voter registration and election procedures affect all elections — federal, state, and local.
To all you Horses Asses out there, as of 9:00 p.m. tonight, read my lips:
403 to 3!!!!!
Guess the lefties can’t really put their money where their mouths are, huh?
Reply to 101
“I’d still like to see where the constitution gives society the right to deny convicted felons … the right to vote.”
The 14th Amendment, Section 2, allows states to abridge the right to vote for “for participation in rebellion, or other crime[.]”
“Do you suppose it’s another Republican ploy to win elections?”
Yes and no. Disenfranchisement as a punishment for crime is deeply rooted in history. It was practiced by the ancient Greeks and Romans, and from them flowed into later European cultures, and imported into the New World by the first colonists. The practice was entirely in keeping with the puritannical culture of the early American colonies. The Framers of the Constitution thought states, not Congress, should determine voting qualifications. Following the Civil War and Reconstruction, felon disenfranchisement was one of several techniques used by segregationists to suppress black voting; the racists were, of course, Dixie Democrats until the 1960s. Today, progressives generally support voting rights for felons, while Republicans generally oppose them; the progressives for idealist reasons, the Republicans primarily for pragmatic reasons, because they believe allowing ex-felons to vote would help Democrats more than it would help their candidates.
katomar, since the numbskull who proposed the resolution voted against it, it’s clear that it was still another stupid grandstanding act by the wingnuts in the House.
Or didn’t you notice that Hunter’s resolution was nothing like Murtha’s, which wasn’t allowed to reach the floor to be voted on?
Yo Cynical, etc. Me != dj.
Nothing but a stunt, and the only thing it proved is that Bush got us into a war he and his party can’t get us out of, and our troops are stuck in a killing machine.
That’s very flattering though. Thanks.
Roger @ 66-68
Tooooo funny! My sides are splitting!
@49
Anytime a GOP trollfuck uses the word “truth,” watch out!!!
Anytime the donks use the word “truth” I am immediately looking for the memo that follows. HEHEHEHEHEHEHEEHEHEHEHaharhohu
Dammit!!! Me != thehim either.
Again, I’m flattered. Thanks.
Rufus @ 110
Q: Do you know how you can tell if a Wingnut is lying?
A: His/her lips are moving.
For The Clueless–
So it appears you are saying you do post as dj and thehim.
That’s ok….just glad to know.
I think it deteriorates the dialogue even more if that is possible but this is merely a Fringe Lunatic Leftist Blog with a few guys funnin’ with y’all!!
dj @ 83
Do you have any factual basis to support your position beyond “Sorry, Gomer, your claim is incorrect”?
Logan himself says they they do not have a procedure for addressing this type of improper registration, unless the voter puts PMB or PO Box on the form.
“Unless a voter uses the words PO Box or PMB on their registration form, officials have no cause to second guess a voter’s signed registration.”
http://www.metrokc.gov/electio....._10_26.htm
Who’s the Gomer now?
Yo Cynical Irrelevant Clown.
!= means “not equal”. Sorry to burst your bubble but I’m sure you’ll continue to indulge your fantasies about this blog and people you disagree with politically just the same.
Mountain Man @ 114
“Do you have any factual basis to support your position beyond “Sorry, Gomer, your claim is incorrect”?”
but then you offer…
“Logan himself says they they do not have a procedure for addressing this type of improper registration, unless the voter puts PMB or PO Box on the form.”
Oh…so now you admit that there is SOMETHING they do to identify registrations at non-residences. That means that you were factually incorrect in your earlier post where you said “Sims and Logan haven’t made any effort to uncover this type of improper registration.”
In addition to that, KC has invited other parties to participate in cleaning of the rolls. The Dems, GOP or anyone else is free to provide information to KC on improper registrations. Fradulent voter challenges are not even required!
From a KC press release
@88
“Dream on, lefties, the public’s faith was undermined during the governor’s race recounts.”
Keep deluding yourself, trollfuck. Rethugs TRIED to undermine the public’s faith in our democracy (so they could impose their fascist dictatorship on Washington state) but the public has seen you for the manipulative liars you actually are.
@88 (continued)
Hey zip — how’s your anti-Gregoire initiative doing? You know, I-912, the gas tax repeal? Your referendum on the “stolen” election and “illegitimate” governor? Did you guys manage to sell that to the voters? Huh?
Your armadillo is horny; you know what you have to do …
dj @ 116
You don’t quite seem to understand what’s going on here.
Yes, Logan’s KCE does screen out registrations with PO Boxes or PMB actually listed in the address (evidend by reading the address). These are properly denied and thus never show in the voter rolls as the voters physical residence. This is NOT THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION and it never has been. Logan won’t let you register this way so the GOP obvioulsy can’t challenge and would have no reason to.
The topic of discussion is registrations at private mail boxes that are not evident on the face, ie do not include PMB or PO Box in the actual address. These are little tiny places where people cannot live.
To further illustrate;
Example 1 – Logan would deny – 11525 NE 17th St. PMB #123 Seattle WA 98125 – by reading this you can tell it is a mail box only and not a physical residence.
Example 2 – Logan would allow – 11525 NE 17th ST. #123 Seattle WA, 98125 – this coud be an apt or a mailbox, Logan can’t tell without doing any work.
Do you see the difference? Why would it be ok for Logan to deny one type of mailbox and allow another? Makes absolutely no sense at all. The GOP is only challenging the type of registrations in example 2 because they are illegal and Logan isn’t doing anything about it.
Anybody notice the conflict here?
1. Those stupid moronic republicans waited too long to turn over their list of suspected illegal registration.
2. Those stupid moronic republicans should have taken the time to do a more thorough job of researching these voters before they challenged them.
Mountian Man @ 119
“The topic of discussion is registrations at private mail boxes that are not evident on the face, ie do not include PMB or PO Box in the actual address. These are little tiny places where people cannot live.
…
Do you see the difference? Why would it be ok for Logan to deny one type of mailbox and allow another? Makes absolutely no sense at all. The GOP is only challenging the type of registrations in example 2 because they are illegal and Logan isn’t doing anything about it.”
Look, dipshit, you made an overly general statement when you claimed that KC was doing nothing about this “problem.” Now you are narrowing the definition of the problem, since obviously KC can take care of the vast majority of such problems at registration time.
The fact remains that the GOP could have handed their list over to KC (instead of their error-riddled challenges), and KC would have sent mail to the voters asking them to correct their registration information. This is a simple and elegant win-win solution that KC encourages.
Apparently, your solution is to disenfranchise voters who have a constitutional right to vote.
DJ
I see you still can’t respond without name calling, your mother must be proud.
Nobody is talking about the part Logan does right, it’s not the issue never was.
Apparently, your solution is to disenfranchise voters who have a constitutional right to vote.
Yes the GOP wants illegal aliens and felons to be disenfranchised from voting. You donks don’t. This is evident on how the left goes through convulsive fits when someone mentions IDing at the polls and cleaning the voter registration rolls.
Mountian Man @ 122
“I see you still can’t respond without name calling, your mother must be proud.”
Go fuck yourself, asshole.
“Nobody is talking about the part Logan does right, it’s not the issue never was.”
Yes, but your claim was overly broad, and therefore incorrect.
RUFUS @ 123
“Yes the GOP wants illegal aliens and felons to be disenfranchised from voting. “
Unfortunately, you wingnuts want to disenfranchise lots of legal voters in the process.
What is it with you wingnuts, do don’t you believe that voting is a fundamental right of citizenship?
DJ: As I stated earlier this year, sometimes you do make sense. But when cornered in an argument you enter @#)@*&#^@#%^(!# mode. When called on that you enter stuckonstupiddon/rugrat602 mode. Why DJ? It makes all previous DJ arguments worthless.
Great job Mountain Man! Keep disembling DJ!
Hey DJ I have a post just for you when it clears Goldy’s filter.
Puddybud @ 126
“As I stated earlier this year, sometimes you do make sense. But when cornered in an argument you enter @#)@*&#^@#%^(!# mode. When called on that you enter stuckonstupiddon/rugrat602 mode.”
You should know by now that my general policy is that when someone tries to tell me what language I can or cannot use, I will almost always unload on them.
Oh, and notice in post 124 that I completely separated the “Fuck you—don’t tell me what language I can and cannot use” part of my message from the substantive discussion. (I don’t always do that, but I did in this case.)
“Why DJ? It makes all previous DJ arguments worthless.”
Ummm…no. This isn’t the second grade. If someone makes an argument with “naughty” words in the text, it may emotionally affect the reader, and hence interfere with their ability to rationally understand or respond to the argument. But, a perfectly valid argument can include “naughty” language, nevertheless.
“Great job Mountain Man! Keep disembling DJ! “
You mean, except for the part where he was wrong! :-)
Puddybud @ 127
I have a reply when it clears Goldy’s filter.
Mountain Man: DJ believes what he believes. Even if the evidence reports another position, DJ, you seem to place your finger in the air, determine the left leaning “independent” position, and always take it. I may have missed it in my Animal Hind Parts thread review; when have you ever taken the anti-Goldy position?
the GOP not only has problems with elections, it has problems getting erections. Except maybe over elections
It is conceivable that Stefan Sharkansky is not a real person.
Yes, but his blog is nominated!