Will it go round in circles?

At Crosscut, Bob Simmons eloquently points out a simple historical truth with a contemporary meaning: private enterprise failed to provide electrical service to much of rural America, and it took the REA under Franklin D. Roosevelt (and Truman) to get it done. And the right wingers of the day called FDR a communist and everything else under the sun.

Here in the Pacific Northwest, where we’re even more indebted to government action for the creation of cheap, reliable electrical power, you kind of wonder if the morons proclaiming that they “don’t need the government for anything except defense and law enforcement” are going to stop using their computers, microwaves and flat screens, or if many of them are even aware of the BPA. I suppose the magic market fairy just fires up the PS3 for them.

The ridiculous hysteria of August should cause sensible people to reflect on what the proper role of government is in a democracy that adheres to a well-regulated capitalist system. This is a legitimate area for debate.

The essential position of progressives, as I understand it, is that if you don’t have a referee in key sectors the cheaters will prosper. This has been proven countless times in our history, from the railroads and oil companies of yore to Enron and the housing bubble in our own time. From time to time government action has been required to preserve capitalism, not destroy it. Notice nobody wants to centrally plan production of toilet paper or iPods, we’re only talking about essential services, health care being rather essential at times to not being dead.

One can argue for or against regulation in a given sector, and how little or what type of regulation will work best, but the far right has simply decided to hurl whatever insults it can muster instead, and is being egged on by corporate America acting in lockstep with the GOP. These are the folks who supposedly hate class warfare, but ruthlessly wage it against the most vulnerable Americans in order to harvest vast profits from the sick, the working poor and anyone else that gets sucked into the monstrosity known as health insurance.

We’re still waiting on that GOP plan to fix health insurance, and my bet is they’ll never produce one. The GOP and the insurance industry are essentially one and the same thing, and just because there are also a lot of Democrats who display similar whorishness does not excuse any of it.

The health insurance companies have become the new Enrons, and they must be refereed. Obama must indeed welcome their hatred, just as FDR did, or nothing much will be accomplished.

Comments

  1. 1

    rhp6033 spews:

    As I’ve mentioned before, my mother grew up on a farm in South Alabama. They didn’t have electricity until the early 1940’s, and then only because of F.D.R.s programs. When I was young she told me stories of how the utility companies fought tooth and nail against the government involvement. They insisted that even though they had only provided electricity to the mid-size towns (which were more profitable to serve), and had no plans to extend electrical lines into the countryside, that they were the only ones who had the right to do so, and government shouldn’t “compete” with them.

    When the lines were being strung, some out-of-town bullies came in to intimidate the workers, occassionally cutting down telephone poles, etc. The electrical companies denied any invovlement, but said that such actions were to be expected in response to “Bolshevick government policies”, and implied that if the programs were stopped, the violence would go away, also.

    But the programs had the support of the people, and the rural south received electricity for the first time. My mother was a confirmed Democrat for the rest of her life, remembering that it was the Democrats who brought electricity to their home, and the Republicans who tried to keep it out.

    Which is probably why the modern-day Republicans are so insistent on any government programs supported by the Obama administration be smothered in their cribs. They don’t want another thirty years or so of confirmed Democratic majorities who remember that it was the Democrats who brought a rational health-care system to America, and the Republicans who opposed it. They remind me a bit of King Herod trying to kill the infant Jesus – trying desperately to snuff out the perceived threat to their power, without realizing that they were fighting against the inevitable.

  2. 2

    YLB spews:

    Ok fellow lefties let’s give the devil his due.

    Mr. Klynical said defense, law enforcement AND infrastructure. Probably doesn’t include electricity but hey it’s still something a little less narrow minded.

    But of course at the end of the day he’s still a hysterically screaming right wing douchebag.

  3. 3

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    you kind of wonder if the morons proclaiming that they “don’t need the government for anything except defense and law enforcement”

     
    You are confusing the desire of limited government to be all areas of governing.
     
    Those that believe in smaller government are talking about the federal government. For example, your city government is made up of people living in your area. How could teddy kennedy know what is best for your neighborhood.

  4. 5

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    spongebob wondermoron,

    Do you ever visit anything else except the kook-aid sites?

  5. 6

    Alki Postings spews:

    The folks on both extremes seem to think it’s an all or nothing game. You have to either let private corporations be considered “people” but without the restrictions and liabilities…or have a centralized planned economy.

    Not to inject some common sense, but how bout something in between, you know, like what we have, or Canada has? Canada and the United states are 98% the same in philosophy, economy, etc. But when we talk about the 2% that’s different, it sounds like bloody murder and the “end of the world” and our way of life.

    Just like if we lets them gays get married, it would destroy our way of life! In fact, no one would notice or care. Massachusetts has had gay marriage for years, and I doubt anyone in any given neighborhood even KNOWS if the folks 4 houses down are living together, in a civil union, or married…nor should they care. It means nothing to their lives.

    Point is, lets try to reign this conversation into something approaching reality. Whether this health care reform passes or not, the sun will rise tomorrow, I’ll still suck at Wii bowling, and New Coke will still be the worst idea in the last century. Life will continue folks. Take a breath…and lets debate specific real issues, not just name call.

    Of COURSE the government has to do infrastructure. We couldn’t have modern private businesses (Starbucks, Wall Mart) with it. Starbucks isn’t going to build their OWN roads to get to their stores, or build a damn to generate electricity, or come up with their own currency and banking system. Infrastructure that provides the ABILITY to have a modern day business if governments job. Back in the ‘old days’ where a road was just a dirt trail, you COULD just open a “store” in the middle of the woods with any government help. But we don’t live in 1566.

    Think of EVERY Republican President who’s EVER been in office. What parts of government did they seriously “try” (whether succeeded or not) to remove? Did Nixon, Reagan, Bush (1 or 2) SEND a bill to eliminate the IRS? The Department of Education? Department of Transportation? NASA? Anything? Republican talk show hosts talk a lot about reducing or eliminating government, but someone remind me of the last time they did it in real life?

  6. 7

    Christopher Stefan spews:

    @5
    You know puddybun at times you are more incomprehensible than an outsourced Indian customer service agent.

  7. 8

    Alki Postings spews:

    (man I need to spell check first!!! LOL)

    Of COURSE the government has to do infrastructure. We couldn’t have modern private businesses (Starbucks, Wall Mart) without it. Starbucks isn’t going to build their OWN roads to get to their stores, or build a damn to generate electricity, or come up with their own currency and banking system. Infrastructure that provides the ABILITY to have a modern day business is the governments job. Back in the ‘old days’ where a road was just a dirt trail, you COULD just open a “store” in the middle of the woods without any government help. But we don’t live in 1566.

  8. 9

    YLB spews:

    5 – Asshole, tell me what in that Kos Diary wasn’t true?

    You always bring bullshit here. “ustogether” was bullshit. The Chinese oil wells off Cuba was bullshit, Obama breaking the law in Iraq was bullshit (where’s the prosecution?).

    Tonight the GOP will have speaking for them a guy who refused to say the President was born in this country and who tried to buy a bogus royalty title from British con artists.

    You’d think your party would know better by now about those right wing pols from Louisiana: crazy Bobby the exorcist whose big moment on the tube fell flatter than a day old fart in an elevator, Senator Vitter who defecates in a depends for sexual release and now Lord Charles Boustany!

    Your ugly party is dominated by total crack pots and you remain loyal because it would seem YOU fit right in!

  9. 11

    Alki Postings spews:

    Sorta funny, but this is kind of the name calling that’s not helping. :) We get it. Democrats (Crips) don’t like Republicans (Bloods). That should go without saying. Present an argument and let someone else provide a rebuttal or counter facts.

    For example…without ‘name calling’…I was making an offhand remark that in reality, no Republican President in modern history has actually reduced the size of government, or even tried. Lots of talk about it, but I want someone to present some ‘facts’ about bill Nixon, Ford, Bush(s) or Reagan sent to Congress to eliminate NASA, Dept of Education or the IRS, which was somehow killed by the Democrats.

    If no such bill was ever introduced by a Republican President, then my points stands, that they “talk” about the evil of government, may even believe it personally, but then why don’t they do something about it then? They’ve had control of Congress AND the White House off and on for 50 years, sometimes as the same time. So refute me. Show me some statistics where a Republican President left office with government reduced (say 25% or 50%) from when he started. The last two Departments (Homeland Security, and EPA) were created by Republicans..without ‘eliminating’ something else first. Good example is George W. Bush not merging/eliminating the FBI/CIA/NSA/DIA/etc….but keeping all those and just adding a NEW agency, Homeland Security, which sits on top of all the others. How is that making government more efficient, smaller and cheaper?

  10. 13

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Where have the HA Libtardos been? Tom Price has been out there discussing an alternative.

    Puddy already discussed the billions spent in defensive medicine to guard against frivolous lawsuits. Defensive medicine costs are up over $100 Billion now. Contact spongebob wondermoron as he has “every” PuddyMissive on this subject.

    You all skip over it because it doesn’t include the public option.

  11. 16

    Alki Postings spews:

    @15 – The “family values” thing is just a political slogan. 99% of the time in life, someone who claims to be holier than you is just covering. The folks who really ARE holy and do good works don’t hire press agents to tell everyone else about it and constantly tell you how holy they are….it’s like a restaurant with a sign “Best Food in Town”…you are guaranteed it’s not.

    And Bush isn’t a war criminal in my opinion, just an BAD strategist for invading the wrong country. We were attacked by Saudi Arabian citizens (I think ONE was from Pakistan to be fair) who lived in Germany and Florida (what’s with those two places) and trained in Afghanistan. So Bush spent $1 trillion of OUR money (taxes from business and citizens) to attack Iraq. Maybe Iraq was naughty, but it was a wasteful use of money. We could have just killed Hussein and spent the $1 trillion on our infrastructure or health care…which would have at LEAST improved our lives, not just pissed away money for nothing.

    Say…anyone still want to explain why no Republican President reduced the size of government (the evil beast they hate and all). Anyone? You’d think at LEAST eliminating the IRS would be SUPER popular with the public. So why hasn’t ANY Republican President done it? Or even tried?

  12. 17

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    11. Alki Postings spews:
    For example, I was making an offhand remark that in reality, no Republican President in modern history has actually reduced the size of government, or even tried.

     
    And your point is that elected republicans don’t represent their constituents any better than democrats do?

  13. 19

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    So Chris Stefan, why are you making fun of Indians and their accents?

    Hmmm… showing your true colors as another of these progressive libtardos!

  14. 20

    Alki Postings spews:

    @19 Enough with the name calling! :) We get it, you don’t like the guy. He’s rubber, you’re glue and all that. Make a point and present some facts.

    @17 – Maybe. Is that the official answer? That politicians simply talk about doing one thing (eliminating government) but never really do it?

    Fair, but then why do they still get away with it? How do they still get VOTES claiming that if you elect them they’ll do this, when in fact they never ever have? Doesn’t that piss off the voters? You’d think they’d catch on and vote for a 3rd party. Oh, right…we don’t really have a 3rd (or 4th) party. Maybe that’s the answer. The two parties we have BOTH represent Wall Street over main street, and huge spending…whether you think the ‘over’ spending is the 800 military base world wide empire we have, or Medicare.

    When the next Republican Presidential candidate goes on about the evil government and it’s reach and size…will YOU remind them, or someone remind them, that they’ve been lying to you for 50 years? They’ve talked about the evil taxes, and maybe my taxes went down 3.5% under a Republican…but why not ELIMINATE my taxes, shut down the evil useless all bad government? Or maybe it’s not all evil?

  15. 23

    Rujax! spews:

    I spent a bunch of years doing insurance of all types and I saw this disaster with healthcare v. health insurance coming many years ago.

    The for profit model works for no one save the executives who make the immoral seven and eight figure incomes.

    What about a “single-payor” basic health system that covers preventative and basic restorative care PLUS optional levels of “enhanced” coverages…what about that solution DOES NOT make sense.

    The population’s basic health needs are met…through a public system. Those who want to and have the means to can purchase “enhanced” coverage that may or may not include such features as “instant” acess to a personal physician and/or various elective or cosmetic procedures. My guess is that the premiums for the “enhancements” would be far less than what is being paid now.

    I fearlessly predict that this is how health care delivery will end up in a few years (decades? or increments thereof?), so why not start it now and make life better and easier for all.

  16. 24

    X'ad spews:

    republicans hiss continuously about smaller government and fail to reduce it. Mostly because, for the most part, people don’t WANT reduced government. republicans had a total hissy over Medicare, now they are defending it.

    It’s simply that conservatives need something to bitch about that they have no intention of discontinuing, because, well, they like it too.

  17. 25

    Alki Postings spews:

    @24

    Yeah, but this should anger their constituents eventually, but it’s like they never notice. Like in some imaginary world they live in, it DOES happen. They think Reagan really DID slash government, and George W. Bush cut spending. I think some of those folks really “believe” in their minds that happened. Granted that the opposite of reality.

    It’s like Obama…he campaigned on a gay rights platform, but they (we) are angry at him for moving so SLOW and not doing what he’s promised (DOMA, Don’t Ask Don’t Tell). Granted he’s been in office LESS than year, but I won’t let him just give lip service (no pun) to the issue and just expect me to support him with money and votes if he doesn’t follow through. I’ll support someone else.

    The Republicans just seem to cheer and throw money at each candidate that says he hates the ‘evil government’ and will reduce it’s power and size…but then doesn’t.

  18. 26

    Rujax! spews:

    25. Alki Postings spews:

    @21 I missed that, sorry. The posts I see are:
    5 – calling someone a moron. No facts.
    13 – Deleted (too bad of insult). No facts.
    17 – Deleted (more insults). No facts.
    18 – Calling someone ‘libtardos’. No facts.

    Where is the ‘argument’ you’re presenting? What was the factual rebuttal I missed?

    09/09/2009 at 11:34 am

    I think the mods are finally cracking down on the free-for-all flaming that has been escalating here in recent weeks.

    Finally.

    I’ve had my part in it…so I’ll participate in an effort to moderate the tone. I’d like to state however…that there is no real “discusssion” when either party refuses to concede ANY point.

    I’m just sayin’.

  19. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Excellent work, Jon! This is one of the most cogent arguments ever posted on HA. Don’t expect the trolls to make an intelligent counterargument. There is none.

  20. 28

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Don’t forget they’re only for defense if someone else does the fighting, for enforcing only the laws that protect their own property, and for infrastructure only if someone else pays for it.

    These people love draft deferments and the all-volunteer military because that means they don’t have to serve in it. They’re just fine with kidnapping, torture, and murder when a Republican administration is committing these crimes. They have no use for the First Amendment when someone else is protesting what they do, nor laws that retrain their lying, cheating, and stealing. Above all, they ardently believe only workers should pay taxes and the owning class should get defense, law enforcement, and infrastructure for free.

  21. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    correction: @28 responds to @2. Goldy’s edit function appears to be turned off this morning.

  22. 30

    spews:

    The essential position of progressives, as I understand it, is that if you don’t have a referee in key sectors the cheaters will prosper.

    That’s standard economics. So if you’re implying that progressives (such as myself) support sound economic policies, then I agree.

    From time to time government action has been required to preserve capitalism, not destroy it.

    Regulation saved the domestic oil extraction industry. For just one example.

    Open markets, a level playing field (via regulation), the rule of law, fair and independent courts, and basic decency are prerequisites to a healthy economy.

    These things are not in dispute. This is not an ideology. This is reality.

  23. 31

    Alki Postings spews:

    @26 I’ve done it too. But at that point, we should just say, “we agree to disagree” and unless you can present some fact I’m missing, it’s a draw and lets move on.

    The worst arguments are the ones of dueling statistics (like gun laws) where each side HAS facts to prove their point (at least anecdotally).

    I’d say, lets just TRY (me too) to be fair, polite, and HONEST! If someone points out a flaw or missing bit of information, be prepared to swallow your pride and say “my bad”.

  24. 33

    X'ad spews:

    @25

    I was an enthusiastic supporter of Obama but I knew we’d been had when The Rickwarren Organism was employed to invoke hypocrisy even before the inauguration. And nothing has happened to lessen my feeling of betrayal, from secret wiretapping to DOMA to outrageous continuation of the Pharmaceutical price-fixing-by-government-mandate which so enraged everybody when Bush did it….not to mention continuation of the Bush tax cuts for the obscenely wealthy.

    Apologists can’t come up with any better excuse than, “Well, he really didn’t SAY all those things, just because y’all THOUGHT that’s what he said. He Only IMPLIED it.

    Yeah

    Right

    Bullshit. I’m done with him. He might do some things that he promised, but I’ll certainly never trust him again.

    He only had to be better than Bush, and what kind of “standard” is that???

    He’s just a different shade of Clinton, and we all know how well THAT worked for progressives.

  25. 34

    Rujax! spews:

    @33

    I figured it was over when he put Rahm in charge and didn’t put his “pit-bull” on a short leash.

    I see it as Clinton II. Not bad, but a wasted opportunity.

  26. 35

    Empty Suit Obama spews:

    I have no problem with Obama appearing before the public to once again incoherently slog through an attempt to explain his vision of what constitutes “health care reform” that the American public believes will improve their current coverage. We’ve seen this act before and his approval declines each times he trots out there, so I say “Bring it on, Mr. President”.

    Besides, bringing the 12-15 Million AMERICANS voluntarily without insurance is attainable without impacting the 80% already “satisfied” with their current healthcare. The 47 Million figure is a lie and a distortion and includes those that are here illegaly (see not our problem).

  27. 36

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    20. Alki Postings spews:
    @17 – Maybe. Is that the official answer? That politicians simply talk about doing one thing (eliminating government) but never really do it?

     
    Politicians (rep/dem) lie all the time to get elected. Lie all the time in office.
     
    It’s all about power and money.
     
    In private, how many “real” democrats approved of clinton. In private, how many “real” conservatives approved of bush. Yet look how dems/reps blindly defended their president.
     
    Like you said, how many rep presidents actually reduced the size of government? How many dem presidents actually improved the educational system? Not too many decades ago america led the world in education, now we struggle to get students to graduate under much lower standards than before.
     
    I believe, that once the doors of congress close to the public, they all get together and have a laugh at us for allowing the ruling class to divide and conquer us.

  28. 37

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    How can there be a debate on health care when it’s finally exposed “the messiah” hasn’t asked for a Republican voice on health care since April 2009? Seems to Puddy all this talk about “ridiculous August hysteria” is much ado about nothing. Well the busing in of union peeps to these August events was hysterical and ridiculous. Like on the Porkulus Bill “the messiah” doesn’t want a healthy debate, he wants to ram it in ya.

    “The ball is in President Obama’s court to reach out to Republicans if he wants a bipartisan bill on healthcare reform, House GOP Leader John Boehner (Ohio) said Monday morning.

    Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.”

    Then there is this YouTube missed by the HA Liberals here. BTW here name is Catherine Brag Small.

    A small businesswoman owner from Novato, CA told off CA Democratic 06 Lynn Woolsey at her Town Hall meeting. As a small business owner she requested tort reform. But in the three house bill’s 1500 pages tort reform is not found. She wants health care insurance competition. There are 1300 insurance companies in the United States. This small business owner has access to six in the state of California. Puddy brought this up before and the HA Liberals didn’t want to discuss it. She questions why there are only six insurance carriers for approximately 37 million people in CA. Her big question to Lynn Woolsey is “What would happen to the cost of health care insurance if they opened it up to competition and allowed the free market system to work?”

    But you fools here are not interested in anything but the public option. Puddy expects this to be erased too. Too many facts.

  29. 38

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Rasmussen recently took a survey. They are the most accurate polling source for the 2008 election.

    “Fifty-six percent (56%) of voters nationwide say that it’s more important for Congressmen to hear the view of their constituents rather than explain the proposed health care legislation. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 37% hold the opposite view while 7% are not sure.?

    Another Rasmussen study reports: “83% Say Proof of Citizenship Should Be Required to Get Government Health Aid”

    But to Jon listening to your constituents is “ridiculous August hysteria”. Typical so typical. This post will be erased too.

  30. 39

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @39 He has to ask? Why don’t you guys offer? You’ve had all summer to offer something constructive but all you’ve done is disrupt and scream and brandish guns.

  31. 40

    don spews:

    One interesting point that I’ve read about malpractice is that the bulk of awards are for economic damages, essentially what it costs to treat the injured party over their lifetime. This is why insurance for obstetricians (newborns) costs so much more than for gerontologists (old people).

    Well, with universal health care, since everyone is covered there is less reason to award economic damages.

  32. 41

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    @39, didn’t read @13 did you? There are other proposals out there. Since none have the “public option” they are ignored.

  33. 42

    Rujax! spews:

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

    Americans are more dissatisfied than citizens of other nations with their basic health care (search) even while paying more of their own money for treatment, a five-nation survey released Thursday notes.

    The study shows that people in the U.S. face longer wait times to see doctors and have more trouble getting care on evenings or weekends than do people in other industrialized countries. At the same time, Americans were more likely to receive advice on disease prevention and self-care than others.

    One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed.

    HMMMMMMMMM…

    Looky here…..

  34. 44

    Rujax! spews:

    From that “liberal bastion” FOX NEWS no less.

    The key point?

    One-third of Americans told pollsters that the U.S. health care system should be completely rebuilt, far more than residents of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, or the U.K. Just 16 percent of Americans said that the U.S. health care system needs only minor changes, the lowest number expressing approval among the countries surveyed.

    Anyone gonna tell me it’s gotten better since 2004?

  35. 46

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    I believe, that once the doors of congress close to the public, they all get together and have a laugh at us for allowing the ruling class to divide and conquer us.

    Well said, Marxist Marvin!

  36. 47

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    37. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:
    How can there be a debate on health care when it’s finally exposed “the messiah” hasn’t asked for a Republican voice on health care since April 2009?

     
    From the same link…
     

    Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find “common ground” on healthcare reform.

    But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.

     
    Doesn’t sound like the obama really wants to find “common ground.”
     
    Didn’t bush reach out and work with teddy kennedy on “no child left behind?”

  37. 48

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    @39, search Google for “The Patients’ Choice Act of 2009″. First don’t put quotes around it and then put double quotes around it. See how many liberal MSM sites carried a story about it. The bill was introduced in June 2009. By your comment

    Why don’t you guys offer?

    tells Puddy your liberal MSM friends really covered “all options” in the health care debate since March 2009! This blog said it all for Puddy.

    “How many Americans have heard of “The Patients’ Choice Act of 2009″ that was submitted in Congress by Senators Coburn and Burr and US Representatives Ryan and Nunes on May 20, 2009?” @39 didn’t. Puddy did! It was absolutely ignored by them.

  38. 49

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    40. don spews:
    Well, with universal health care, since everyone is covered there is less reason to award economic damages.

     
    So if a government doctor screws up someone’s life, no big deal because others are getting free healthcare?

  39. 51

    Rujax! spews:

    Let’s set some groundrules please.

    Let’s use “board handles” when referring to each other.

    Let’s use proper names and titles for our elected officials and candidates.

    ?????????

  40. 52

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    @39:

    Same search for CBS News and it’s on a CBS News blog. whooop deeee dooooo

    And here’s the CNN Search.

    Puddy won’t waste his time visiting the official news source of “the messiah” and his “disciples” MSNBC!

  41. 53

    X'ad spews:

    @49

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    40. don spews:
    Well, with universal health care, since everyone is covered there is less reason to award economic damages.

    So if a government doctor screws up someone’s life, no big deal because others are getting free healthcare?

    Right now the Republicans want the kind of tort reform that allows that doc to screw up someone’s life with impunity. So where ‘s the inconsistency, Marvin?

  42. 55

    Rujax! spews:

    52. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Puddy won’t waste his time visiting the official news source of “the messiah” and his “disciples” MSNBC!

    09/09/2009 at 1:13 pm

    54. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    If you remember it was liberal MSM who elevated the president to son of “God” status, not Puddy!

    09/09/2009 at 1:14 pm

    The last time I looked the proper name for the President of the United States was Barack Hussein Obama.

    Do you have a problem with that, puddy?

  43. 56

    Rujax! spews:

    So puddy…

    Are you saying that you are unwilling or unable to debate and discuss in a civil manner here?

  44. 57

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Rujax,

    Use of proper titles? Hmmm… now he asks for it while agreeing all those years GWB was a chimp. Even Darryl recently called one…

    “Which are just about where Chimpy was at this point in his first term…”

  45. 58

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @41 Funny how I’ve been closely following this debate all summer, and all I’ve heard from the GOP side is “No,” “Hell no,” and “Hell fucking no”. If there’s a GOP proposal, I have no idea what it is. Why is that? Certainly not because I haven’t been paying attention, because I have. If your side does have a message, could it be that your screaming and your antics are drowning it out?

    Here’s a point for you to think about, pud: The voters elected a Democratic president and a Democratic congress, so we don’t have to enact Republican policies. Our side has offered you input and even compromise. The president has tried to work with senators and representatives of your party and gotten nowhere. The GOP position, as always, is “our way or no way.” I repeat, the people elected a Democratic government because they want Democratic policies not Republican policies. So, you can expect to be listened to and have a say if you choose to participate in the legislative process, but you don’t get to enact Republican policies. That’s how elections work. You need to modify your expectations to the electoral and political realities, pud, just as we did when the GOP was in power.

  46. 59

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Rujax,

    Wait a minute you are asking your puddybiotch (your term) to go civil?

  47. 60

    Rujax! spews:

    59. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Rujax,

    Wait a minute you are asking your puddybiotch (your term) to go civil?

    09/09/2009 at 1:24 pm

    Well I’m going to. You can do what you will do.

  48. 61

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @43 Patients’ Choice Act of 2009? Why wasn’t there a Patient’s Choice Act of 2001? Or 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, or 2008? You had 8 years to enact this. Why didn’t you?

  49. 62

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    51. Rujax! spews:
    Let’s set some groundrules please.

     
    the blog nanny wants to set rules. How typical democrat of [insert legal board handle here].
     
    The last time someone referred to a “board name” as a handle the words good buddy were soon to follow with a black trans am in the wings.
     
    If someone is going to set rules, the logical choice would be the person paying the bills. Which I believe would be goldy. Maybe the left-wingnuts can strike and refuse to comment until their demands are met.
     

    Let’s use proper names and titles for our elected officials and candidates.

     
    That’s a good one. As if the ha hooligans would give up chimp/hitler/war criminal and use President Bush in their comments.

  50. 63

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Roger Rabbit can’t read or comprehend any more in his “retired state”

    Our side has offered your side opportunity for input and even willingness to compromise.

    From a PuddyLink above…

    Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find “common ground” on healthcare reform.

    But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.

    See Roger? You side didn’t want a debate. Your side didn’t want a constructive discussion. You side tells one thing to the public and acts “strange” behind closed doors. Your side has the liberal MSM in their back pocket carrying their water as Bernie Goldberg told us in his book “A Slobbering Love Affair” and Puddy placed how much time ABC, CBS, NBC and CNN gave to the Republican June health care proposal.

    You asked Puddy where was the proposal. Puddy gave you two. Now you come along and say…

    The voters elected a Democratic president and a Democratic congress, so we don’t have to enact Republican health reform.

    Then you can’t scream about the Republicans raising a stink because your side isn’t listening.

    The public has been watching and August was very very interesting.

  51. 64

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Hey rujax,

    I haven’t called you a cinderblock in this thread at all. I even went first person personal just now. SHOCKING…

    What is funny is #4 hasn’t said squatola lately since #15. You are scrambling his mind rujax. He’s lost; wondering how not to act a moron.

  52. 65

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    59. Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:
    Rujax,

    Wait a minute you are asking your puddybiotch (your term) to go civil?

     
    *IF* all the left-wingnuts go civil I’ll follow suit.
     
    I’ll let the left-wingnuts lead by example.
     
    Puddy, want to start a pool how long rujax can go being civil? Put me down for less than 25 posts.

  53. 66

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Here is the official summary of the Patients Choice Act of 2009 as written by its sponsor:

    “5/20/2009–Introduced.

    Patients’ Choice Act – Requires the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) to convene an interagency coordinating committee to develop a national strategic plan for prevention. Provides for health promotion and disease prevention activities consistent with such plan. Sets forth provisions governing the establishment and operation of state-based health care exchanges to facilitate the individual purchase of private health insurance and the creation of a market where private health plans compete for enrolles based on price and quality. Amends the Internal Revenue Code to allow a refundable tax credit for qualified health care insurance coverage. Replaces title XIX (Medicaid) of the Social Security Act with a program to provide grants to states for: (1) acute medical care assistance to otherwise qualified blind or disabled individuals, foster care children, low-income women with breast or cervical cancer, certain tuberculosis-infected individuals, and certain individuals currently covered; and (2) long-term care services and supports for qualified disabled and elderly populations. Repeals title XXI (State Children’s Health Insurance Program) (CHIP, formerly known as SCHIP) of the Social Security Act. Amends the Public Health Service Act to require the Secretary to supplement the costs of private health insurance for eligible low-income families through the distribution of supplemental debit cards, which may be used for costs associated with health care and provide direct support in accessing health care. Requires the Secretary to establish and implement a competitive bidding mechanism to promote competition among Medicare Advantage plans and to increase the quality of care furnished under the plans. Requires benchmarks for such plans to be established solely through competitive bids. Sets forth programs to prevent Medicare fraud and abuse, including ending the use of social security numbers to identify Medicare beneficiaries. Allows the Secretary to award grants for the development, implementation, and evaluation of alternatives to current tort litigation for the resolution of disputes concerning injuries allegedly caused by health care providers or health care organizations. Requires the Secretary to promulgate regulations to provide for the certification and auditing of the banking of electronic medical records. Establishes: (1) a Health Care Services Commission to enhance the quality, appropriateness, and effectiveness of health care services and access to such services; and (2) the Office of the Forum for Quality and Effectiveness in Health Care. Terminates the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. Independent Health Record Trust Act of 2009 – Directs the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to prescribe standards for the establishment, certification, operation, and interoperability of independent health record trusts. Requires the Secretary to: (1) permit Indians to receive health care through providers outside of the Indian Health Service; and (2) make payments for such care. Terminates the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research.”

    I don’t support this proposal of basing access to health care on tax credits. I don’t believe that approach will solve the most serious problems in our health insurance system, including:

    Denying insurance to sick people
    Coverage gaps
    Arbitrary claim denials
    Lack of competition in insurance marketplace
    Skyrocketing insurance premiums
    Collapse of employer-based insurance system

    Therefore, this isn’t something I would vote for, and politicians who would limit health care “reform” to this proposal aren’t candidates I will vote for.

  54. 67

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    55. Rujax! spews:
    The last time I looked the proper name for the President of the United States was Barack Hussein Obama.

     
    Since he’s president, shouldn’t it be President Barack Hussein Obama?
     
    Just like you should from now on refer to bush as President Bush.

  55. 68

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @63 Really puddy? Our congressmen and senators are holding health care townhalls. Your side is disrupting them. Our side is trying to listen to people. Your side is screaming and brandishing guns. Our side is upset with a president of our own party because he’s bending over backwards to cut a deal with your side. It’s time to call bullshit by its right name. You, my friend, are a bullshitter.

  56. 70

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Roger Rabbit@66,

    Damn you are funny. First you wonder what is the proposal in @39 then you find out OMG there was a proposal. What? Now you read something you didn’t know before because you hop among the kook-aid drinkers?

    I don’t support this proposal of basing access to health care on tax credits. I don’t believe that approach will solve the most serious problems in our health insurance system, including:

    Denying insurance to sick people
    Coverage gaps
    Arbitrary claim denials
    Lack of competition in insurance marketplace
    Skyrocketing insurance premiums
    Collapse of employer-based insurance system

    It’s never been debated so how can you make a blanket comment on the proposal? The liberal MSM never gave it the light of day. Probably Rahmbo told his sycophants in the liberal MSM not to cover it.

  57. 75

    Empty Suit Obama spews:

    39. Roger Rabbit spews:

    @39 He has to ask? Why don’t you guys offer? You’ve had all summer to offer something constructive…

    Just because the Democrats can’t come up with a competent idea to reform the system doesn’t mean the Republicans should. Remember stupes, you were elected to lead in November. You have the house, the senate and the cat bird seat, so instead of creating excuses and diversions for your party of incompetence, start leading (not that its a strong suit of yours).

    …but all you’ve done is disrupt and scream and brandish guns

    Yes, well exercising our 1st and 2nd Amendment rights, which are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, is inherently American.

    You got a problem with that Bunny?!

  58. 77

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Roger Rabbit@68

    Our side is upset with a president of our own party because he’s bending over backwards to cut a deal with your side.

    What deal? How is he bending over backwards? He will announce tonight he’s for the public option. Wanna bet a beer to a tall soda mug?

    But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.

    The people disrupting the debate? What? You so soon forget the last eight years Roger.

    Puddy discussed this proposal when it came out Roger. You chose to either ignore the post or you decided you weren’t interested. Which is it Roger?

  59. 78

    Steve spews:

    @38 Puddy spews: “Rasmussen recently took a survey. They are the most accurate polling source for the 2008 election.”

    Indeed, they did. Apparently 74% of Republicans polled by Rasmussen say that their representatives don’t represent them well. I imagine this disatisfaction comes from two directions, those who think their representatives aren’t quite whack enough, and those traditional conservatives, the ones thrown under the bus, roadkill, who must wonder whatever happened to the party of Goldwater, Ike and Reagan. Competing visions, if you will, with one having lost out. One a vision of a shining city on a hill, the other of vision of the smoldering ruins of cities where liberals were once concentrated.

  60. 79

    X'ad spews:

    I think maybe everybody has forgotten that after the Clinton health care debacle, the Insurance Companies and Health Care Providers,(the Republicans assured us,) had agreed to institute reforms that the Republicans had suggested that would make intervention unnecessary and we would be happy with the compromises.

    How did that work out for you Repubs? My, what progress you made.

  61. 80

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Steve, good chuckle on smoldering cities. But they are still that way and liberals are still in charge.

  62. 81

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    X’ad you mean that Clinton Health Care plan devised by secret meetings? Even WikiPedia covered that X’ad.

    The linchpin was the employer mandate X’ad. Since most jobs are from small business how are they gonna afford “messiahcare”?

  63. 82

    Empty Suit Obama spews:

    79. X’ad spews:

    I think maybe everybody has forgotten that after the Clinton health care debacle, the Insurance Companies and Health Care Providers,(the Republicans assured us,) had agreed to institute reforms that the Republicans had suggested that would make intervention unnecessary and we would be happy with the compromises.

    How did that work out for you Repubs? My, what progress you made.

    Since most of the polls show 80% satisfaction with their plan, this is a whole lot of smokescreen where there’s no fire. It’s a manufactured crisis created by the Democrat party.

    BLOOMFIELD, Conn., Sept. 9 (UPI) — Many insured Americans think the current healthcare system works, but say not understanding their plans stresses them, a Cigna survey indicated.

    Among the survey findings the global health service company highlighted in a release Wednesday were:

    – A majority of Americans, 79 percent and most with insurance, said the existing healthcare system works for them. UPI – 9-09-2009

    Reform, not overhaul. Putting the incompetent government in charge of my healthcare plan is not my (nor most apparently) idea of “ideal reform”. Say no to Obamacare.

  64. 83

    X'ad spews:

    @78

    There’s a pretty direct correlation between the descent of the Grand Old Party and the ascent of the xtian ( I won’t dignify the fundy nutcases with the title Christian) hypocrites ushered in by Reagan.

    Nixon had had the good sense to directly refuse to allow them to have a recognizable presence in the party, a policy followed by Ford.

    It was Ronny Reagan, the 2nd rate actor, who thought they would benefit HIS administration, and he was too stupid to see where it would inexorably lead. So here we have the present Republican party, deserted by reasonable people who saw what was happening and who were replaced with ever worse whackjobs.

    But they do represent a sizable minority in the US, and they intend to take over. Complacency will enable this, and it is in great abundance.

    They employ Rush, and Beck to lead fearful geezers to hysterical pitch and sabotage the efforts to Democrats to be heard. The righties shriek that the Democrats are in control, but the DINOs belie that.

    Get used to it. It is the future.

  65. 84

    Steve spews:

    @83 “Get used to it. It is the future.”

    Nah, not me. I forsee a different future, one where Puddy and I can get together for lunch and laugh about the vile we used to spew at each other in the HA cesspool. After lunch we head for the first tee and knock the ball around for eighteen holes. He presses on the eighteenth and loses, again, and I take his money. You see, X’ad, you gotta have a vision, something worth working for, and mine is seeing the inside of Puddy’s wallet.

  66. 85

    X'ad spews:

    Well, here’s part of your future as regards your health care:

    A) The DINOs will make sure that republican obstructionism prevails

    (B) There will be NO meaningful reform.

    (C) The Democrats will NOT acknowledge that they have been defeated.

    (D) The whole thing will collapse in 5-10 years,

    (E) The conservatives will blame everything on the Democrats as they continually do. They’ll win the next election.

    (F) There will be 4 years of chaos as the republicans show that they cannot DO anything CONSTRUCTIVE. They’ll lose the next election.

    (G) Some kind of reasonable system will HAVE to rise from the ashes

  67. 86

    Empty Suit Obama spews:

    What Americans listening to Obama tonight have to ask themselves:

    A- Can anyone really say that an 80% satisfaction with the overall healthcare level is grounds for overhauling an entire health system?

    B- If yes on count A, do the American people really believe that the Government is the most competent entity to achieve this goal effectively?

    The answer on both counts remains an astounding…NO

  68. 87

    rhp6033 spews:

    # 83: The reason why Reagan embraced the Evangelical Christians into the Republican Party doesn’t have anything to do with Republican platforms or values. It was a simple power-play in reaction to Carter’s election.

    You see, Carter was the first President to proclaim to be a “Born Again Christian”, an active member of the Southern Baptist church and a Sunday-School teacher. Moreover, he lived what he preached, and even tried to apply his moral values to American foreign policy (his emphasis that “human rights” standards even apply to our friends). For this he was roundly condemned as being nieve. But in the 1976 election, his status as a bona-fide Evangelical Christian helped him secure the election, especially within the Southern states.

    So shortly after his election, the Republicans started a whispering campaign which sought to diminish his credentials as a born-again Christian. I heard it myself, as it was whispered that Carter had “served wine” in the White House at state dinners, with was anathama to Southern Baptists and other protestant denominations which maintained a strict temperance policy. Other whispers followed.

    So as Ronnie Reagan became the heir apparant to the 1980 Republican nomination, steps were taken to clean up his image. They avoided having photographs taken of him drinking wine, even for toasts. Although Reagan had barely attended church in years, they made sure he was photographed in the pews a few times during the campaign, and argued that he had a “private” religious life which was superior to Carter’s “public” religioius life.

    But since that wasn’t enough, they tied Republican strategy to a moral stance, implying that the Republicans would reverse the tide of pornography, climbing divorce rates, open homosexuality, drugs, etc., and therefore had superior moral values than the Democrats. With the assistance of the rising national televangelists who weren’t afraid to promote political agendas (Baker, Robertson, Farwell, Dobson), they pretty much succeeded in taking the Evangeical movement away from the Democrats and counting them among their most loyal converts.

    But that link has been considerably frayed of late.

    First came the reports from dissolutioned White House staffers about how Rove and other leaders within the Bush administration would laugh at Evangelical leaders behind their backs, and how they made comments to the effect that they were just using them.

    Then came the number of Evangelicals who realized that despite the number of years the Republicans had been in charge, their agenda had not been advanced one iota. Sure, tax cuts for wealthy and business deregulation were the first thing pushed through by each new Republican administration. But where was progress relating to abortion, prayer in the schools, help for home-schooling mothers, etc.? After 30 years or so, with Republicans in control of all three branches of government, wouldn’t you expect some progress?

    Third came the series of sexual scandals involving prominent Evangelical leaders and Republican politicians.

    Fourth, and rather late in the game, came the realization that their economic situation was going to continue to decline as long as Republicans stayed in office. With Evangelicals being predominately mid-to-lower middle class workers, they were bearing the brunt of the economic situation.

  69. 88

    X'ad spews:

    There are reasonable evangelicals (wallis) and there are nutjobs. The nutjobs are loud and lethal. They are taking over.

  70. 89

    correctnotright spews:

    @82: Most people are satisified with thier insurnace becuase most people are healthy….if you actually ask people who had had to use their insurance….the satisfaction drops considerably.

    Most of the bankrupticies in this country are due to health issues and the majority of those people have insurance. Some help their insurance gives them…you don’t realize your insurance stinks until they start citing the fine print to you.

    so you r argument…that people are satisified with their insurance is a straw argument.

    The bottom line is that we spend almost twice as much on helth care as any other country and we get lousy reults. If the health care industry was a truely competitive industry, it would go broke because no one would buy it. Instead, it is a virtual monopoly and has the entire republican party in it’s pocket.

    Oh, and it gets about 20% in overhead and profit..compared to less than 3% for Medicare.

    so much for efficiency, lack of beauracracy and lack of profit taking. The insurance companies make more if they pay out less, period.

  71. 90

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Now Steve

    You see, X’ad, you gotta have a vision, something worth working for, and mine is seeing the inside of Puddy’s wallet.

    Puddy isn’t a Tiger Woods. So Puddy don’t bet on games where Puddy shoots over 100 for 18 holes. Puddy whacks the tee ball well but the fairway game sucks. But let’s get on the bowling alley and Puddy’ll show you a right handed Earl Anthony. Puddy loves taking a BIG BLACK BALL and hitting them whitey pins!

    Without looking why did Puddy choose Earl Anthony?

  72. 91

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    RHP6033

    Republicans would reverse the tide of pornography, climbing divorce rates, open homosexuality, drugs, etc., and therefore had superior moral values than the Democrats.

    And that was a problem? There are “news” shows which glamorize HollyWeirdos. You guys brag about those actions in print and video news. The pope didn’t approve of Frank Sinatra’s actions and Ted Kennedy’s either. Both were hard drinking womanizers. Teddy had 100% scores with NARAL and the Human Rights Campaign.

  73. 92

    Steve spews:

    @90 “Puddy loves taking a BIG BLACK BALL and hitting them whitey pins!”

    Hmm, I should be intimidated, but seeing as how I once came within a 4-6 split (I missed, sigh!)from qualifying for the Seattle Open, I say, “Bring it on!”

  74. 94

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Okay Steve, let’s go bowling. Now have you commented on the other thread?

  75. 96

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    Why does obama keep talking about god in his speeches.
     
    What happened to the separation of church and state?

  76. 97

    Empty Suit Obama spews:

    Wow, another snooze fest tonight. I like that he’s getting put on record with the lies about what WILL NOT BE in the bill…now, if we could only get an honest mainstream media to expose those lies.

    Obama Vs. the CBO- Who knows what the fuck they’re talking about…

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theno.....plans.html

  77. 98

    Don spews:

    if we could only get an honest mainstream media to expose those lies

    You mean like when he said he wouldn’t sign a bill that didn’t pay for itself? Do you propose that reporters find a woman with a crystal ball to tell them if he’s is going to sign a bill IN THE FUTURE? More wingnuttery…

  78. 99

    Don spews:

    So if a government doctor screws up someone’s life, no big deal because others are getting free healthcare?

    You need to keep up with the program. Don’t know where you pulled the word “government” from. Nowhere in my post did I say anything about government doctors. In case you missed the subtle word “universal”, that refers to a health care system where everyone is covered.

  79. 100

    Don spews:

    What happened to the separation of church and state?

    What happened to the Yankees in the ’63 World Series?

    My question has as much relevance to tonight’s speech as does yours.

  80. 102

    k spews:

    Pud would fit right in in some Middle Eastern Jihad. No insult is ever forgotten, and the worst behavior of his opponent sets the standard for his.

    Enjoy wallowing, Pud, and blame others for the mud.