White House flushed Newsweek in toilet

[NWPT46]After all the shit thrown at Newsweek for reporting allegations that interrogators at Guantanamo had flushed the Koran in a toilet, it turns out an FBI memo corroborates the charges:

The declassified document’s release came the week after the Bush administration denounced as wrong a May 9 Newsweek article that stated U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo had flushed a Koran down a toilet to try to make detainees talk.

The official memo was one of several the ACLU obtained via FOIA requests, and released yesterday. The documents describe a number of reported abuses at Guantanamo.

Former detainees and a lawyer for current prisoners previously have stated that U.S. personnel at Guantanamo had placed the Koran in a toilet, but the Pentagon has said it also does not view those allegations as credible.

In document written in April 2003, an FBI agent related a detainee’s account of an incident involving a female U.S. interrogator.

“While the guards held him, she removed her blouse, embraced the detainee from behind and put her hand on his genitals. The interrogator was on her menstrual period and she wiped blood from her body on his face and head,” the memo stated.

A similar incident was described in a recent book written by a former Guantanamo interrogator.

Newsweek should never have allowed themselves to be pressured into retracting the story. They had allegations, and they reported them. That’s what journalists do. By caving in to political pressure they have left the impression that a) the story was definitely wrong, and b) that it in fact triggered the protests in Afghanistan in which 16 people died. Neither perception is more credible than the original Newsweek story itself.

I expect some of my righty readers to angrily disagree with me, as you have already taken much solace in demonizing Newsweek. So I would like to point out a parallel to some local current events. While you seem offended that Newsweek would print such allegations without absolute proof, you seem to have no compunction that Dino Rossi’s attorneys would charge fraud and ballot stuffing in a court of law, without presenting direct evidence to such. Just strikes me as a tad hypocritical.

Comments

  1. 1

    Felix Fermin spews:

    What really bothers me is the tendency of supporters of this administration to reflexively deny that there is any wrongdoing. If they wanted the neocon vision to succeed, you’d think they’d want the house built on bedrock instead of quicksand. Instead, every news report that doesn’t neatly fit into the narrative is trashed. Shouldn’t we be fixing the things we’re doing wrong instead? Ah, ignorance, such bliss!

  2. 2

    pbj spews:

    ALLEGED incidents of Koran flushing. Key word there Goldy. As a victim of false allegations yourself, one would think you’d understand that best of all.

    I am sure that during WWII the Germans ALLEGED we tortured prisoners.

    As for the election trial, Nicole Way admitted she certified knowing that what she put in the report was wrong. If I am the banker and I tell you the $00 you put in last week is still there and attest to that under penalty of law, and you come in next week to get your $200 and there is only $100, then fraud was committed. But apparently leftists beleive those are numbers any banker would envy. I wonder how many leftists ever ran a bank.

    Felix – It is funny how the liberal left wing nutjobs have a tendency to reflexively deny there is any wrongdoing on the part of KC Elections. Any news report that doesn’t neatly fit into your soshial-ist (I can spell it but Goldy censors freedom of speech here) agenda is quickly trashed.

    Yes, Felix I guess for you and your left wing buddies, ignorance IS bliss.

  3. 3

    Puddybud spews:

    Goldy, I hope you are sitting down. I agree with most of your premise. If the interrogators did indeed flush the Koran down the toilet, that is a bad thing. I would not want to see the Bible treated the same way.

    Does Newsweek have a right to print it in a free society? Yes they do. Does Newsweek have a responsibility in a free society to weigh the consequences of that knowledge being posted all over the world to damage our reputation because Isikoff hates Bush, absolutely they do. Was this a political move? Absolutely. Isikoff’s politics and Newsweeks are well known. This is no talking point. The issue is for me and others who travel overseas to make a living and to promote good things American, is that when they print things they absolutely know will inflame the radicals, they put a target on our back.

    Okay I hear donnageddon, tj, patrick, torridjoe and others say it’s Bush’s fault. How is that? Does he set military policy? Only to invade and go to war. It is the local commanders who decide what is policy at their level. If you haven’t been the military (yes I have, with bad feet and knees) then how can you say anything except hearsay from what Moveon.pork or the ACLU says. How many of them have been in the military? I doubt hardly any at all. Yet all they do is bad mouth those who died for their freedom to say lousy comments about their protectors.

    Demonization is two-fold.

    1.) Did you verify it? Isikoff said he did not. Bad move. You all want me to verify what I say but you turn a bling eye to those on your side who don’t.

    2.) If you verify it, do you tell it? Does it make us look good trying to get information from known terrorists using some of their tactics, short of full torture to get the information to save lives? I do not support flushing the Koran down the toilet if it is true!!! If you disagree with that then you can expect an attack on American soil and it will be your fault for shackling the military to rules that you “feel” are good, but do not allow us to determine their plans.

    Remember your side set the bar on demonization during the Clinton years. Just go back down memory lane and remember some of Hilary and Terry McAuliffe comments to start with!!!

    So in closing, where are you guys on the left when Nick, Paul and others were beheaded by Al-Qaida. Nary a peep from your side to say that’s wrong. So if you don’t publically condemn it, you must support it. Remember Katy Couric said on the Today show when they were trying to get Saddam during a bombing run, “I hope he got away”. Another infamous comment from your side!!!

    Flushing the Koran is bad. Do you report it to these muslim countries NO!!!

    Pudster

  4. 4

    Frank spews:

    I don’t quite understand your comment about the riots – are you saying the story didn’t trigger the riots? The riots would then have occurred without the story?

    I disagree with your point about reporting the allegations. In my opinion, real journalists (and their editors) DO NOT just report any old allegations they run across. Bloggers do that. Hell, you can find plenty of people who allege all the Jewish people employed there didn’t go to the WTC on 9/11 and that GWB planned the operation himself. Should I be reading those allegations in Newsweek? You can certainly read them all over the internet.

    Reporting detainees’ claims without corroboration is irresponsible journalism, particularly when the claims are certain – as in this case – to inflame passions in an already inflamed area.

  5. 5

    David spews:

    pbj emphasizes these were only “ALLEGED incidents of Koran flushing.

    Well, I’m sure that will sort itself out soon enough, because the Bush administration has been so forthcoming and transparent about everything that happens in Guantanamo, Bagram, Abu Ghraib, etc.

  6. 6

    pbj spews:

    From: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157705,00.html

    “Di Rita, the chief spokesman for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld (search ), said that U.S. military officials at Guantanamo Bay had recently found a separate record of the same allegation by the same detainee, and he was re-interviewed on May 14. “He did not corroborate his own allegation,” Di Rita said.

    Asked why he felt certain that this detainee did not affirm his allegation out of fear of retaliation, Di Rita said, “It’s a judgment call, and I trust the judgment of the commanders more than I trust the judgment of Al Qaeda.

    Apparently liberals trust the judgement of Al-Qaeda more.

  7. 7

    Nindid spews:

    Pbj @6 – What a ridiculous hyperventilating conclusion. Not even worth the electrons that I used to write this.

  8. 8

    pbj spews:

    Nindid@6,

    When your side plays right into the hand of our enemey, providing them with with a propaganda coup by propagating ALLEGATIONS as fact, then you most certainly do prove that you believe what Al-Qaeda says over the word of our commanders.

  9. 9

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    pbj @ 2:

    1) The fact that the S-word here causes messages to be held is a known bug. Goldy has nothing to do with it, and your message will be released when he gets around to reading the held messages queue and sorting it out from the canned ham for vy-ag-ruh and pen-1s pillz. Quit grousing.

    2) Yes, it’s all ALLEGED. Guantanamo Bay is very convenient that way. The only people outside the military who have access are the fine ladies and gentlemen of the ICRC, and they tend to be very tight-lipped about what they see and hear.

    Riddle me this. Camp X-Ray was set up at Guantanamo explicitly so that they could have some privacy to interrogate terrorism suspects. No inconvenient queries to follow local laws, since Cuban law decidedly has no influence on Guantanamo.

    Given that it was set up to keep prying eyes out, who should be responsible for overseeing how the camp is run? Should it exist without any external oversight? Is anything that anyone hears to be rejected out-of-hand as heresay? Yes, the military should generally police its own behavior. It’s worked well everywhere else they’ve tried that too.

    There is a strong temptation to say “If everything they’re doing at Guantanamo is on the up-and-up, why is it being done there rather than at a prison block in Miami where these fine human beings would have some rump access to the American legal system, or back in Afghanistan where President Karzai can at least lodge an ineffective complaint or two?”

    But I won’t say that. I’ll just leave it up to you to explain how much access outside parties should have to suspected terrorists. That will be more fun.

  10. 10

    David spews:

    Puddybud @ 3 has been listening too much to the right-wing echo chamber, I think. He doesn’t seem to understand that liberals care about America’s moral standards and standing, that we want to see our soldiers win, be an example to the world and come home safe. He’s convinced himself that liberals are really only interested in bad-mouthing soldiers, which is just nuts.

    But he has a solution for this non-existent problem: shut your face and stop criticizing our government or anyone who’s ‘on our side.’
    2.) If you verify it, do you tell it? Does it make us look good trying to get information from known terrorists using some of their tactics . . . .
    YES, you tell it, because Americans deserve to know what’s being done in their name. NO, it doesn’t make us look good, because we’ve been doing shameful things. And by the way, most of your “known terrorists” have turned out to be innocent people. Like the taxi driver who was beaten to death in Bagram prison. Shh…don’t tell anyone…it’ll be okay as long as no one finds out.

    Flushing the Koran is bad. Do you report it to these muslim countries NO!!!
    Point of fact, Newsweek didn’t report it to any Muslim countries. It was, I believe, a ten-sentence piece that didn’t even get any notice here in America (in English) for a couple of weeks, until a bunch of right-wingers started screaming and blaming it for opportunistic riots half a world away.

    If you disagree with that then you can expect an attack on American soil and it will be your fault for shackling the military to rules that you “feel” are good, but do not allow us to determine their plans.
    WTF? This is lunacy. And you do realize that TORTURE DOESN’T WORK, doesn’t provide reliable information—don’t you?

  11. 11

    David spews:

    More on Puddybud’s rant @ 3:

    Remember your side set the bar on demonization during the Clinton years.
    No, I think we have to give that award to the right wing, in particular to everyone who promoted the Clinton Chronicles (awful video tarring the President as a murderer).

    So in closing, where are you guys on the left when Nick, Paul and others were beheaded by Al-Qaida. Nary a peep from your side to say that’s wrong.
    Um, I call this BULLSH*T. Are you really out to demonize your fellow Americans?

    Remember Katy Couric said on the Today show when they were trying to get Saddam during a bombing run, “I hope he got away”. Another infamous comment from your side!!!
    Actually this is yet another lie from your side, Puddybud, a story (based on a real verbal gaffe from Couric) that has grown in the retelling until it’s this wildly false tale.

    Do you really feel that everyone who doesn’t fit your political stripe must be a black-hearted anti-American? You should really reconsider your views.

  12. 12

    Dan spews:

    I.saw.Elvis.today…in.fact.I.see.him.everyday…but.I.have.never.witnessed.a.Koran.being.flushed.down.a.toilet…because.it.is.not.possible…but,detainees.saying.so.is.to.be.taken.as.gospel.truth?….Now,I.have.seen.decapitated.heads.at.the.hands.of.terrorists,you.libs.call.freedom.fighters,and.we.are.to.take.the.words.of.a.detainee.telling.stories.to.a.tree-hugging.hippie.lawyer?…The.FBI.has.a.file.that.determined.no.Koran.was.flushed….log.off….read.the.facts,then.come.back.and.try.to.say.something.intelligent.and.GOLDY,..it’s.a.nine.day.trial…the.republican’s.will.present.evidence.of.fraud…and.the.glove.will.fit.

  13. 13

    pbj spews:

    jsa on beacon hill @2:

    The S word ‘bug’ apparently is not the only one. There are several words that are censored out due to this ‘bug’. Funny how it doesn’t filter the words Neocon, Fascists or Nazi. And Goldy claims he is a software engineer. He can’t open the source code and do a word search, recompile and put it back online?

    RE 2)

    You mean we should open up our most sensitive military sites to Newsweek reporters? Imagine how well that would have went with the Manhatten project? Would we have been on the receiving end once we told our nuclear secrets to the enemy?

    Maybe that is why Bush has had more success at getting to Al Qaeda – because he doesn’t broadcast our intel to our enemy. Just a thought.

    And I seem to recall seeing either Peter Jennings or Ted Koppel actually touring Guantanimo on one of their ‘News Specials’, so it is not as if no reporter has ever been there.

    “Yes, the military should generally police its own behavior. It’s worked well everywhere else they’ve tried that too.”

    Actually it has. The photos of the Abu Grahib prison were taken by a member of the military who came forward – not some Newsweek reporter.

    “If everything they’re doing at Guantanamo is on the up-and-up, why is it being done there rather than at a prison block in Miami where these fine human beings would have some rump access to the American legal system, or back in Afghanistan where President Karzai can at least lodge an ineffective complaint or two?”

    And that is where you betray your true feelings. You think the terrorist that slit Johnny Span’s throat at Massar Al Sharif was a “fine human being”?

    Says a lot about liberals now doesn’t it?

  14. 14

    pbj spews:

    David@11,

    “Do you really feel that everyone who doesn’t fit your political stripe must be a black-hearted anti-American? You should really reconsider your views.”

    Do you feel that everyone who doesn’t fit YOUR political stripe must be a goose stepping Nazi? You should reconsider YOUR views.

  15. 15

    pbj spews:

    Maybe the reason they don’t want liberal leftist reporters at Camp X-Ray is that when asked if they would give up the position of a platoon on the battlefield in order to get a story, all the reporters said YES.

  16. 16

    David spews:

    pbj notes that “The photos of the Abu Grahib prison were taken by a member of the military who came forward – not some Newsweek reporter.”

    Mm-hmm. And what has happened to that whistle-blowing photographer? Promoted and praised by the President for uncovering dastardly deeds? Or hushed the f*ck up so that we wouldn’t give our enemies any more of those “propaganda coups”? Because if we don’t see it on TV, it’s not actually happening.

  17. 17

    David spews:

    pbj @ 14 asks me: “Do you feel that everyone who doesn’t fit YOUR political stripe must be a goose stepping Nazi?

    Nope. Nor have I written anything that would imply that, so take your rhetoric and stuff it. Anyway, I was addressing Puddybud.

  18. 18

    David spews:

    I think terrorists are NOT fine human beings. But regardless of their quality, they are human beings. For our own sake, if not for theirs, we should treat terrorists—and ALLEGED terrorists—as such.

  19. 19

    Patrick spews:

    Pudding Brain @ 4

    PROVE your ALLEGATIONS* against Newsweek and Isikoff re politics and intent to damage Bush. (* N.B., “allegation” and “proof” are two different things.)

  20. 20

    Patrick spews:

    When we were posting on this topic a few weeks ago, I posted that I believed Newsweek got it right the first time and retracted the story in an effort to stop the rioting and deaths. I also pointed out (a) the Pentagon didn’t deny the story for 11 days, and (b) there were corroborating sources.

    I was right, wasn’t I? Now we also have corroboration from FBI internal documents. The Koran-flushing story is true. Of course it’s true. The authorization for the torture and other outrages we’re hearing about came from the highest levels. The HIGHEST levels. Wait and see, the truth about that will come out, too.

  21. 21

    Patrick spews:

    numskull @ 6

    For you to be right, we have to believe that (a) the detainee in question is not an innocent civilian scooped up by the Bush regime’s Keystone Kops dragnet and (b) trusted his captors not to beat the living shit out of him (or worse) if he corroborated his previous allegation.

    Man, you are one stupid shit.

  22. 22

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    pbj @ 13:

    1) There is a keyword list, and the S-word isn’t on it. If you’re a Perl programmer and understand regexps, maybe you can pull the code apart. Anyhow, it’s pretty dumb that you use it. Neocons refer to a specific ideology. I think Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, etc. would cheerfully admit to being neocons. Fascist, well, I wouldn’t use that term, but if you believe the purpose of the State is to support industry and the purpose of industry is to support the State, you may be a fascist. You may also be a Republican. It’s all a matter of nomenclature.

    Nazi is an idiotic word for anyone to use. There are no Nazis here.

    On the other hand, I suspect there are no real soc-yal-ists here either. We liberals all live in Seattle, home of the $300,000 fixer-upper. We all like capitalism, we just want it not to suck so hard.

    If you think you’re getting an unfair shake here, you don’t have to post y’know. Last I checked, nobody is forcing you to come over here. I read SP occasionally (VERY rarely) and I don’t post. Why? Because I have a limited level of patience for arguing with ideolouges, left or right.

    2) Oh, never mind. I just wanted to see where your head was at. Pretty much where I expected it to be.

    Fine Human Beings Look up the word irony in a dictonary. Call me when you figure it out.

    A lot of the people at Guantanamo are really bad people. I find it very hard to believe that the military was infallible at finding only the really bad ones and making sure they wound up there. People have similar names, and people say the darndest things when someone is pointing a gun at them in the hopes they might get a break.

    It’s OK. You’re certain the system works just fine under a shropud of secrecy. I won’t try to convince you otherwise. It must be nice to have that much certainty in your life.

  23. 23

    Patrick spews:

    stupid shit @ 8

    Uh-oh, now the stupid shit is playing the you’re-collaborating-with-the-enemy-card …

    And you wingnut anuses wonder why we don’t like you???

  24. 24

    Patrick spews:

    Rational people understand the solution to the atrocities and bungling being committed by the Bush regime is not to cover them up but to vote these loonies out of office.

  25. 25

    David T. spews:

    Puddinghead, where the hell did you come up with that supposed comment by Katie Couric. That is totally ridiculous and just shows how out of touch rightwing lore can be.

    You are not anymore patriotic than I am. Being a rightwing zealot does not make somebody a better American, just a deluded one.

    Of course you guystalk to God, so how can I disagree with you.

  26. 26

    Liking it spews:

    The difference is that Newsweek didn’t report them as allegations but as fact. The link to the article you provide related to the detainee’s accounts (again only allegations.)

    Allegations by detainee’s have been around for years, but no-one got killed. Newsweek changed the story reporting that government records prove the charges (no longer a mere allegation.) Then people got killed.

    Big difference. That is why Newsweek retracted their story and apologized.

  27. 27

    pbj spews:

    David@16,

    He is still in the military. And not everyone expects a presidential citation for just doing there job. And no David, they don’t have presidential citations for the best burger flipper.

  28. 28

    pbj spews:

    jsa @22,

    Sure I could fix the code. I am not sure if you could afford my rate though. Any software developer woth his salt could. Perhaps Stefan over at SOUND Politics could be of service. He actually has a Computer Science degree from Stanford, unlike some pretenders.

    “On the other hand, I suspect there are no real soc-yal-ists here either. We liberals all live in Seattle, home of the $300,000 fixer-upper. We all like capitalism, we just want it not to suck so hard.” - jsa

    Seattle is also home of the $300,000 toilets for the homeless. Maybe you could trade? Hey, don’t complain, at least your home is WORTH $300,000. Hell I couldn’t afford to buy a toilet in Seattle. Perhaps it wouldn’t suck so bad if you didn’t buy beyond your means.

    If you did post at Sound Politics, your post wouldn’t be censored. Even your accusations of Repulicans as Nazis would read just as you wrote it.

  29. 29

    pbj spews:

    David T@25,

    Not all of us talk to God. I am an atheist and a Republican. Yeah I bash those ultra zealous religious righties pretty bad on their blogs and they accuse ME of being a liberal. Do you do the same to your ultra lefty marxist crazies? Or do you embrace them?

  30. 30

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@23,

    Just calling it as it is. When you trust the judgement of Al Qaeda over that of our military commanders, then what else can one conclude? Had your generation been around during WWII, we’d all be speaking German. You’d have told us how we brought WWII on ourselves and deserved the attack at Pearl Harbor.

  31. 31

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@20,

    No it is not true. It is an ALLEGATION you idiot! I know you are eager to see the downfall of this country and yearn for its defeat but really, to stoop so low is really beyond the pale.

  32. 32

    Dan spews:

    ahhh,liberals….a.(unsubstantiated)report.of.a.Koran.flushed.down.a.toilet…..must.be.some.seriously.good.plumbing.to.accomplish.that…I.guess.the.next.”Bush.admin.attrocity”.will.be.the.report.that.a.detainee.was.made.to.use.the.plunger.to.get.his.HOLY???book.out……..and.yet,libs.have.no.problem.flushing.a.life.aborted.down.a.toilet…

  33. 33

    Patrick spews:

    Deluded @ 26

    “Allegations by detainee’s have been around for years, but no-one got killed.”

    Numerous detainees have been killed by their American captors.

  34. 34

    Patrick spews:

    pbj @ 29

    Since you asked, I think Marxists suck. That’s why I belong to the Democratic Party, not one of the socialist parties, but this distinction probably is lost on you.

    pbj @ 30

    No, you played the you’re-collaborating-with-the-enemy card. Just because there’s an actual enemy doesn’t mean our military commanders are telling the truth when they’re lying.

    How dare you accuse us liberals of supporting Al Qaeda, you fucking anti-American unpatriotic piece-of-shit liar! If you said that to my face, you would regret it very much …

  35. 35

    Patrick spews:

    Reply to 31

    I’m pretty sure you were looking in a mirror and writing about yourself when you posted this.

  36. 36

    Aexia spews:

    IIRC, Newsweek never retracted the Koran-flushing allegations; they only retracted the claim that the allegations would appear in a forthcoming government report.

    The Koran-flushing stuff has been cooberated by so many different sources that I’m surprised anyone is still pretending it didn’t happen.

  37. 37

    pbj spews:

    AEXIA@35,

    You are a perfect example of why liberals should never be allowed to run national security in time of war. You always presume the enemy is right and we are wrong. I bet you danced on 911 too.

  38. 38

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@33,

    Too bad you didn;’t have the same concern for Nick Berg as they were sawing his head off. But we are Americans – we deserve it don’t we? After all, we are all little eichmans according to your side.

  39. 39

    Donnageddon spews:

    pbj, your postings on this thread are repulsive “Liberals love al quida more than america!” “Not a peep from liberals when americans get their heads cut off in Iraq!”

    Why the hell are you pushing such obvious crap?

  40. 40

    Felix Fermin spews:

    How many Abu Ghraib photos, and quadruple-corroborated fact checks do you require before you call for the criminals in our military to be held accountable? We’re the U.S. of f’n A. We’re better than this.

    No, I don’t want the terrorists to win. Yes, I recognize these are mostly bad apples doing the dirty deeds. But they’re not being held accountable! From the highest levels, there are only weak words and mighty misdirection, accompanied by a wink and a nod to the folks who should be putting a stop to this.

    Neocons are not doing their cause any favors by pooh-poohing these atrocities.

  41. 41

    Patrick spews:

    pbj @ 36

    How does Aexia’s comment @ 35 -> your conclusion @ 36? The logical link is missing …

  42. 42

    Patrick spews:

    Comment on 37

    Those are your words, you unpatriotic anti-American piece of shit. I never said them.

    The murder of Berg was an atrocity and I am 100% for meting out justice to the perpetrators.

  43. 43

    Patrick spews:

    Comment on 38

    Because he’s an obnoxious little troll who delights in yanking our chains. When he’s not posting, he practices by going into the men’s room and yanking on toilet chains for hours on end. When he leaves the men’s room he take all the crap with him.

  44. 44

    J spews:

    PBJ @ 36
    Are you serious? Can’t someone who expects more of her fellow citizens,including policy makers and soldiers, be allowed to express herself without being labeled a traitor. Your leap in logic shows you are not thinking through what you are reading. Honestly, do you think any American of any political persuasion danced on September 11? Maybe you have to believe that the typical “lib” did so you feel better about the shakiness of your belief in those whom you follow.
    J

  45. 45

    Liking it spews:

    Patrick @33,

    “Numerous detainees have been killed by their American captors.”

    Yes, and lots of Iraqi soldiers and civilians were killed in action. I was referring to innocents killed by the riots in Afghanistan over the Newsweek story, and not that this has been a bloodless war. One would have to be a dolt to infer that from my statement. Stay on topic.

  46. 46

    Donnageddon spews:

    Patrick @ 42 “The murder of Berg was an atrocity and I am 100% for meting out justice to the perpetrators.”

    Exactly! The same goes for the planners and conspirators of 911! So why did this administration fail to get Bin Laden? Why did they take the troops away from capturing these murderous criminals and divert them to a nation that in no way was a threat to us?

    Why do the neo-cons and their leaders hate America?

  47. 47

    Donnageddon spews:

    Liking it @ 45 “I was referring to innocents killed by the riots in Afghanistan over the Newsweek story, and not that this has been a bloodless war”

    Where are you getting that clap trap the commanders in Afghanistan, and the President of Afghanistan have stated that the violence in Afghanistan is not related to a true story in Newsweek. It is because the Bush administration has willfully failed to reconstruct the county, leading to violence, crime and anarchy. They were never interested in reconstructing the country. Just the portion the pipeline runs through.

    Why do neo-cons hate America so much?

  48. 48

    pbj spews:

    J@44,

    I have read their writings. Ward Churchhill thinks they deserved it on 911 and that they were all “little eichmans”. Liberal Johnny Walker Lind actually fought with our enemies and was captured in Masar El Sharif (the place where CIS agent Johnny Span got his throat slit).

    I see how they complain about us trying to get intel from the enemy every single day. They are worried about the terrorists ‘rights’. What rights did Daniel Pearl get when they sawed off his head?

  49. 50

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@34,

    Let’s see. Democrat John Walker Lind from liberal Marin County Ca was caught shooting at our troops. Psst. That is one indication that they are the enemy.

    Democrat Rep Barbara Lee of Berekely, the only congressional representative to vote against going after the Taliban in Afghanistan.

    Susan Lindauer – aid to Democrat congress woman Carolyn Mosley Braun – caught spying for Saddam Husein.

    You see Patrick, when you spew fiery Anti-American rhetoric, some of those who are with you and listen to you decide to take it to the “nect level” such as Susan Lindaur (who once worked at the Seattle PI BTW surpise surprise).

  50. 51

    pbj spews:

    Felix@40,

    As I recall people DID get jail sentences. They cetainly got more time than they would if they had killed a person in King County.

  51. 52

    pbj spews:

    Patrick@42,

    Since you are so patriotic, you can tell me when you served in the military so I can congratulate you and thank you for your service.

    Please, give the obvious response… so predictable.

  52. 53

    Puddybud spews:

    David @ 10. I just watched the Brig General Jay Hood talk about the “supposed Koran flushing! He personally interviewed this person in front of the FBI and others. A reporter asked him and they said it’s on the record. There was no followup question, so ask your FBI friends. I saw it on Fox News. I know you all hate it, but do your Lexus-Nexus search now and you can see the transcript for yourself. Your case looks more fishy each hour. Just happened at ~ 2:00 PDT interview at the Pentagon.

    1.) No toilets in Camp X-ray when the person claimed it happened. They used buckets.

    2.) The person was pissed at his captor beating him. So he said the unsubstantiated claim to get back at him.

    3.) The person said he was repeating hearsay, but he never saw it and he never was threatened with a Koran dropping into a bucket of poo.

    4.) He didn’t know who was the person who first claimed it.

    So, before you start your rantings, get all the facts.

    David at 11. I went on the Internet, and Katy Couric’s supposed media gaffe, has not been apologized for or retracted. I stand behind my comment on her. Oh yeah you should read some other utterly dumb things she has said. Go read Dick Morris’ book on Rewriting History regarding the demonization of their enemies, starting with Kathleen Willey and Gennifer Flowers.

    Regarding interrogations, who said I supported full torture? Oh ye of little reading comprehension, I said short of full torture. So what is short of full torture? Do you know what our military pilots in training go through? Some go through a type of water torture. If we do that to our pilots, do it to enemy combatants.

    You talk nice to them, and they’ll stop cutting off heads, yeah, go over and sweet talk Zarqawi. I also stand by my point that your side didn’t comdemn their beheadings but trump up a few jerks at Abu Ghraib. Charles Grainer and Lynndie England, a couple of jerks.

    Hey Patrick I asked you to prove the Texans who are against Patricia Owens. You prove your stuff, then I’ll tell you when Isakoff (hint, look again on Lexus-Nexus) said he voted democrapic on a TV show in early 2005. When asked who he voted for, I think the quote was like: “Yes, I voted for Kerry.” Since the WA Post printed that over 80% of the media voted for Gore in 2000, I rest my case.

    When New York Times reporter John Tierney surveyed reporters covering the Democratic National Convention last month, the results were striking. “We got anonymous answers from 153 journalists, about a third of them based in Washington,” he wrote on Aug. 1. “When asked who would be a better president, the journalists from outside the Beltway picked Mr. Kerry 3 to 1, and the ones from Washington favored him 12 to 1. Those results jibe with previous surveys over the past two decades showing that journalists tend to be Democrats, especially the ones based in Washington. Some surveys have found that more than 80 percent of the Beltway press corps votes Democratic.” – Boston Globe. Michael Isakoff is an investigative correspondent with “Newsweek” magazine in Washington.

    http://secure.mediaresearch.or.....DIA%20VOTE

    Pudster

  53. 54

    pbj spews:

    Patrick,

    Please tell me where you served in the military so I can thank you for your service. I am sure you’d do the same wouldn’t you?

  54. 55

    righton spews:

    Interesting language in here goldy. Any words you don’t allow, or is Patrick free to swear ad nauseum.

    Could the rest of us start using some terribly non PC words on you guys; see if those get through as easily as all of his fecal, oral, and other terms?

  55. 56

    JCH spews:

    54…PBJ…..You can be sure Patrick and Goldenstein NEVER served in the United States Armed Forces. They made sure they NEVER wore a uniform. [what a surprise] JCH [LT, USN, 76-84]

  56. 59

    Puddybud spews:

    I commend you on your service Patrick. Went to college with many ‘Nam vets. Some very funny and smart people. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Army?

    Pudster

  57. 62

    David spews:

    Sigh. Puddybud replying to me @ 53:

    1) I didn’t claim that there’s truth to the Koran-flushing allegations; you’re blowing hot air.

    2) This administration has been so secretive that it’s hard to know what really is going on within these military detention centers. All we have to go on are the often self-serving statements of the military press flacks, and the leaked results of investigations and unauthorized photos. I want to believe that we’re holding ourselves to the highest moral standards, like we’re told, but evidence keeps dribbling out suggesting it isn’t always true, and there hasn’t been a lot of accountability.

    3) Sure, Katie Couric has said dumb things, and made verbal gaffes; but she didn’t say what you said she said. You’re too eager to falsely imply that she hates America or supports Saddam, you pounce on a misspoken word and twist it into a sinister smear. Shame.

    Same with your lunatic refusal to believe that people who disagree with you politically (liberals etc.) were horrified, disgusted and angered by the beheadings of Daniel Pearl or Nick Berg. If you can’t deal with reality, well, I’m not going to bother replying to your nonsense anymore.

    4) Regarding interrogations and “full torture,” apparently you subscribe to the idea that there are degrees of torture and as long as it’s not “full” torture we can do just about anything to a prisoner and still have a clear conscience. Do you support “stress positions”? long-term sleep deprivation? peroneal strikes? water torture? (oh wait, you just said you do support water torture). The rest of the world calls those things torture, even if you have a different idea of what “is” is. Your lack of moral values is disturbing.

    And since you apparently don’t believe me that torture is worthless as an intelligence-gathering device, why don’t you give us a cite to a published analysis saying how well it works? If you did some research, you would have to reconsider your perspective. (Oh, never mind, you’re happy with your perspective and don’t want to be bothered by real-world facts and the lessons of experience. Sorry to bother you. You can go back to your closed-minded little world now…just stay there.)

  58. 63

    David spews:

    I am getting the feeling that “pbj” is an abbreviation for “paranoid, biased jughead.”

    The sneering insults are flying fast and furious from his keyboard today. Apparently he has some deep-seated misconceptions about liberals and progressives: thinks we hate America and support al Qaeda. It’s lunatic, and I pity him. At the same time, his nonstop rantings are starting to go from amusing to annoying, by virtue of their sheer volume.

    So at the risk of arguing with a fool, I will address a couple of his nutty beliefs.

    1) Liberals love America, hate al Qaeda. Get it straight. (See Patrick @ 34.)
    2) Liberals want our government to do a better job living up to American ideals, and to not tarnish our nation’s greatness, e.g. with torture.
    3) Liberals do NOT embrace the “ultra lefty marxist crazies” like Ward Churchill, or their “blame America” views, any more than conservatives embrace ultra righty fascist crazies like David Duke or his views.
    4) John Walker Lind is a psycho Islamist al Qaeda supporter, not a liberal.
    5) No one here, least of all Patrick, is “spew[ing] fiery Anti-American rhetoric.” Go find the people who are and insult them instead of us. (hint: you won’t find them here. Go away.)

    Troll.

  59. 64

    David spews:

    P.S. to pbj: a couple of leftover items:

    they don’t have presidential citations for the best burger flipper.
    True, but non sequiturs aren’t an award category either.

    If you did post at Sound Politics, your post wouldn’t be censored.
    Not until the person is banned for interrupting the groupthink over there.

    (And, for the record, for the nth time, *nothing* is censored at horsesass.org. You just have to deal with the occasional SPAM filter delay, just like the rest of us do. Deal. No, wait, go away.)

  60. 65

    Puddybud spews:

    Sigh? At least you are getting air into the lungs. Now let’s hope it makes it to your brain. Is this three medium stars David? If this is the same David, I hope you read that link on the Sabbath start by some well known rabbis. And you thought you trapped me. Just checking.

    Regarding the Koran, your exhaulted leader Goldy placed the article on the blog. Did I see the great David say Goldy your analysis is bad? Noooooooooooo I didn’t. Did I see other lefties say that? Noooooooooooo I didn’t. Do I see your side bad mouth our great military save patrick? Yessssssssss I do. How many of your side had comments about Abu Ghraib? Many of your side over what? A few stupid apples. Yet, your great paper the NY Slimes has placed 40+ articles on Abu G over a few jerks. So if guilt by ass-ociation is wrong I apologize to you and you only.

    Regarding war – talk to Patrick. Talk to pjb. They will tell you what happens in a war is war. Plain and simple. Things happen. If the ACLU was in WWII who knows what would have happened. When you have these bad guys in detention who throw their feces at your face, you would smile and say thank you. Good for you. I suggest you navigate to the Johns Hopkins site and read the newly declassified KGB documents that the Russians felt the US was winning Vietnam in the early 70’s, but the anti-war crowd caused us to lose. Go there and read for your self. Russia was quietly funding the North Vietnamese when we thought it was China. I was shocked.

    Regarding the torture? Who has said that sleep deprivation doesn’t work? Inverted sleep positions, etc? Ward Churchill? Give me someone other reference then the ACLU, etc. For these scumbags who want to destroy all you and I hold near and dear to our hearts you betcha, bud, treat them almost like they treated Nick, Paul and others. I love my children. Osama and Zarqawi want to kill them. I trust the military to keep us safe as long as they don’t go overboard and stay within the law. It’s your side supports the toxic world of the ACLU, and MoveOn.pork. I do not.

    Case in point: In the late last century some Arab militants captured some Russians, and killed one and held the others for ransom. The KGB found the lead Arab kidnapper’s brother. They killed him, cut off his baggage, and sent it to his mother in a box with a note. The next day the other Russians were let free. They only understand force, it’s their culture, but you and your side doesn’t get it. First this was thought to be folklore, but again it’s in the declassified KGB files. Go read that one too. They get no court in my mind to Geneva conventions, as they don’t give Geneva Conventions support to their prisoners. I have been to Malaysia, Thailand, and other countries with Muslim populations. How they treat women to me is appalling, but then your side who thinks a strong woman is a wonderful thing, turn your head to that right? You take things too personally when I accuse your side.

    Did I specifically accuse you of not condemning the beheadings? But David where are your public pronouncements before today? But your friends here on HA didn’t say too much on it. Did you watch Nick’s beheading? If not, go to MichaelSavage.com. It is disgusting. It revulsed me. He has the videos for you all to see as of last week. But wait, Michael Savage, ain’t he the enemy too?

    It’s your side David, and you think I am bad. Ha, look in the mirror and see all of your HA friends there too. Nary a peep David. Nary a peep. What you say in public is your real standing in the eyes of others. When I read the condemnation from Goldy and his surrogates, you lefty HA mates, then I will give you some respect. Until then I will stay in my cocoon as you say.

    See ya!

    Pudster

  61. 66

    Puddybud spews:

    David: I remember a few weeks ago PacMan asked some questions regarding how you democraps look at life. Why do they have to impose their will upon the masses? Is that liberal think?

    Nary a peep to those questions. Nary a peep.

    Pudster

  62. 67

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    Twirly, twirly, spin, spin little libs – twisting words to fit the agenda of the Desperate Party:

    Slow Learners in Reuterville
    From a Reuters dispatch:

    An FBI agent wrote in a 2002 document made public on Wednesday that a detainee held at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, had accused American jailers there of flushing the Koran down a toilet.

    The Pentagon said the allegation was not credible.

    The Reuters headline: “FBI Memo Reports Guantanamo Guards Flushing Koran”–even though the FBI memo, in Reuters’ own telling, only reports a detainee claiming this. Apparently the folks at Reuters learned nothing from the Newsweek debacle.

    Best of the Web Today – May 26, 2005

    Nice try.

  63. 69

    David spews:

    Is this three medium stars David? If this is the same David, I hope you read that link on the Sabbath start by some well known rabbis. And you thought you trapped me. Just checking.

    Yep, that’s me. Wow, reaching back to May 9…and with some selective memory, it looks like. OK, if you want to embarrass yourself again, let’s recall:

    1) I called you out on your ignorance, after you professed much knowledge of Torah;

    2) You found “that link on the Sabbath start” and tried to justify your unrelated, dumb-as-a-post answer by dissing what you read (without understanding it);

    3) The smackdown.

    Trapped you? No, you did that yourself, you blowhard. Ah, memory lane.

  64. 70

    New LIBERAL - gimme most (hell, ALL) of your $$$$ spews:

    Yoohoo, yahoos:

    WASHINGTON – U.S. officials have substantiated five cases in which military guards or interrogators mishandled the Quran of Muslim prisoners at Guantanamo Bay but found “no credible evidence” to confirm a prisoner’s report that a holy book was flushed in a toilet, the prison’s commander said Thursday.

    The unidentified prisoner, re-interviewed at Guantanamo on May 14, said he had heard talk of guards mishandling religious articles but did not witness any such acts, Hood said. The prisoner also stated that he personally had not been mistreated but that he heard fellow inmates talk of being beaten or otherwise mistreated.

    The general said he could not speculate on why the prisoner did not repeat his earlier statement about a guard flushing a Quran in a toilet.

    Well duh, imagine that.

  65. 71

    Puddybud spews:

    Selective memory? Did I forget who was writing? Not at all. Uhhh David, I brought it up to you on purpose, too see how well read you are. Such a small narrow mind. I was dissing what I read? Heck you didn’t even know of the link “smartone”. Unlike you and yourkind on HA, who fire their wad and shrivel up, I save the big blast. Then you say I use it for my point. Just admit you had no idea how others of your faith discuss the Sabbath. Otherwise you would have known about it since you have such a command of your religion. I knew you would go back and gloat over something you claim as a smackdown. I am from the east coast so I alerted you to how others think instead of your narrow mindedness.

    Are you Hasidic or Orthodox? I wonder… I said 6:00 PM to see what you would say. Why would I bring it back up unless you had no RETORT, like other things you claim to say. BTW I am a Sabbath Keeper. I just believe Jesus is the SON of GOD!

    My old boss at a previous job is Kohanim. We had long talks about my Sabbath Keeping and my beliefs vs. his beliefs. I have been to the area in South Africa where the Discovery Channel described the tribe with the same genetic markers. Blowhard no, you can’t stand the truth!!! Three medium stars, huh!

    Pudster

  66. 74

    David spews:

    Okay, back to topic:

    “Regarding the Koran, your exhaulted leader Goldy placed the article on the blog. Did I see the great David say Goldy your analysis is bad? Noooooooooooo I didn’t.”

    That’s because Goldy’s analysis wasn’t bad. Do you have a problem with his post?

    “what happens in a war is war. Plain and simple. Things happen.

    Yes; war does evil things to a person. It doesn’t mean we should accept those “things” if and when they happen. Do you really think we should sweep the evidence of abuses at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib and Bagram under the rug? Do you really think that our military leaders did and have done enough to ensure such acts weren’t and aren’t condoned? It doesn’t seem that way. Or take your comments about Vietnam; how do you feel about the officer who blew the whistle on My Lai?

    “If the ACLU was in WWII who knows what would have happened.

    News flash, the ACLU has been around since 1920. During World War II the ACLU was a major critic of U.S. internment camps for all Japanese-Americans (see, e.g., the Puyallup Fairgrounds). Who knows what would have happened if the ACLU wasn’t around in WWII. Me, I like my civil rights. You?

    For these scumbags who want to destroy all you and I hold near and dear to our hearts you betcha, bud, treat them almost like they treated Nick, Paul and others.

    So it’s an eye for an eye, is it? Or a life for a life? Kill ‘em all. Make it painful. Hell, nuke ‘em. No? (Maybe your religion suggests a better path.) I’d like to hold myself, my country, to a higher standard than the ethics of al Qaeda.

    And pragmatically, torture doesn’t work. You may have seen the news items recently (March 22) in which an FBI document concluded that the information the military got out of its “aggressive questioning” was” suspect at best,” and that the FBI had been “successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques.” Pretend to be their friend, and they might tell you something. Torture them, and you’ll get shit, or whatever they think you want to hear. Assuming you even have the right person. Torture creates problems, not solutions.

    One blogger put it this way:

    not only were the vast majority of the prisoners at Gitmo either innocent or guilty only of petty crimes unrelated to terrorism, now it’s confirmed that the torture and other improper interrogation methods that shamed the US, angered the world, and, no doubt, spawned thousands of potential future terrorists wasn’t even particularly effective in eliciting useful info from its victims.

    Finally, you say about liberals’ revulsion at beheadings and hatred for al Qaeda, that you’ve heard “Nary a peep David. Nary a peep.

    Then you haven’t been listening. Or maybe you’ve been listening in the wrong place at the wrong time; you won’t find much about Nick Berg’s or Daniel Pearl’s deaths here, because they had already been killed before horsesass.org got going. (Daniel Pearl was murdered in January of 2002; Nick Berg in May of 2004; Goldy started HA with posts about local politics, and none of us reading or commenting on them, in May 2004). Do you really need to be reminded that we’re all Americans who love this country and want to see a bright future for ourselves and our children? There’s no left-right divide in this.

  67. 76

    David spews:

    Pudster the revisionist wannabe Talmudic scholar: “Selective memory?
    Okay, maybe not. Maybe just a little self-aggrandizing self-delusion.

    “Uhhh David, I brought it up to you on purpose, too see how well read you are.”
    Sure you did. It had nothing to do with covering your (very exposed) ass after claiming that Jewish sunset is “6:00 PM”. (And you couldn’t possibly ever admit you were wrong, or that you were blowing smoke about knowing Torah.)

    “Heck you didn’t even know of the link “smartone”. . . . Just admit you had no idea how others of your faith discuss the Sabbath.”
    Once again, I must gently inform you that you are out of your ken. As I wrote before:

    Unfortunately, you looked up the wrong thing. While the Talmudic discussions are interesting, they were an academic exercise regarding the exact dimensions of twilight. It is long-established in Jewish law and custom that the onset of night is indicated by the appearance of three medium-size stars: If only one star is seen, it is day; if two are visible, the time is doubtful (still twilight); when three stars appear, it is night. End of story.

    Did you even read that post? You should. I’ve read Talmud, I’ve studied it (with Justice Menachem Elon of the Israeli Supreme Court); and I’ve discussed Shabbat countless times with Rabbis Orthodox, Reform and Conservative. I am familiar enough with this subject to be bemused that you think “the link” to one website has made you an expert.

    Unlike you and yourkind on HA, who fire their wad and shrivel up, I save the big blast.
    [guffaw] Riiiiiiight. Another way to read this is, first you start by talking out of your ass, then—if and only if you’re challenged—you go back and try to find some good CYA material.

    I knew you would go back and gloat over something you claim as a smackdown.
    Well (regardless of whether I believe you), I’m entitled to! You brought this up after all (thinking highly of yourself), and it had been a rather satisfying smacking-down.

    “Why would I bring it back up unless you had no RETORT”
    I think the original exchange (as linked @ 69) speaks for itself.

  68. 77

    David spews:

    Leftover comments again, this time for Puddybud:
    “BTW I am a Sabbath Keeper.”
    Good for you. Really.

    “My old boss at a previous job is Kohanim.”
    Oy vey, the ignorance of Judaism shows through again. I, too, am a Koheyn. “Kohanim” is plural. Your sentence reads something like “my old boss is Jews” or “my old boss is Irishmen.” Silly.

    I have been to the area in South Africa where the Discovery Channel described the tribe with the same genetic markers.
    Cool. Unrelated, but still cool.

  69. 78

    David spews:

    Here are a couple more links about the ineffectiveness of torture to obtain information:

    Michael LaBossiere, Terror and Torture
    Excerpt:

    consider the American and European witch trials. During these trials a significant number of people confessed, under brutal torture, to being witches. If torture is an effective means of acquiring truthful information, then these trials provided reasonable evidence for the existence of witches, magic, the Devil and, presumably, God.

    Laura Quilter, Derivative Work
    Excerpt:

    Individual torturers may believe that the purpose is to elicit information — indeed, I imagine that most torturers cloak their own actions to themselves, in part, as based not on sadism, or pure abdication of moral responsibility, but on the mental jujitsu that following orders will lead to some greater good because the torture produces information that contributes to the general welfare. This is not to dispute the results of the Stanford experiments or other similar work showing that guard-roles inevitably produce mental disorders, anxiety, and abuse of power.

  70. 80

    Puddybud spews:

    Hey David, Okay, I may give you ground on the short of full torture issue. I see you love to parse. So parse this; you have no response to the KGB actions. As I said before, you treat them with the same force, as these are not civilized people, and they will wilt. Why is it Russia can figure things out regarding terrorists but we try to talk to them with kindness?

    Regarding Nick, Paul etc: What about the other beheadings of the Japanese guy, the Korean guy, the other lady who had an Iraqi husband, the shots to the head of 19 men? These happened after the start of HA. Nary a peep. That is a red herring comment.

    Thomas Friedman, a known liberal writing for a known liberal fishrag. Where is the news?

    Pudster

  71. 81

    PacMan spews:

    Yo David, remember me from Caleeefoneeea? I am out of town but I like to cruise certain blogs to see what is being written. Interesting take on the Sabbath, but what makes you the scholar on our holy day? There are parts of yours and Pudster’s argument that are true. I too am from the east coast and have Christian & Jewish friends. I don’t follow the three medium stars Sabbath start. When the orb drops I start the Sabbath. I didn’t know about the Pudster link but I sure did read it. So you studied with the supreme court justice. Does that cause you to walk on water now? I would have said Kohanim too like Pudster, as I would have been speaking about the group descending from the chosen tribe, instead of Koheyn a singular, as you said. But again, your hatred for Pudster and his political views clouds your mind. I don’t agree with everything that Pudster writes, but I for one can at least see his point. Many of you care not to consider it? I hear the replies now, “His comments have no merit!” Well many of yours in my mind carry the same weight category.

    I see you and others love to disemble when you can, but you skip over other parts of comments from the likes of righton, the New Liberal, and others say. I asked questions about liberal thought and none of you care to answer. Why is that? Does it force you to become introspective? You tend to argue that Pudster and others can’t say they are wrong? Why should they? You and your HA buddies can’t either. No middle ground on either side. Just look at teh thread where Marilyn said Ron Sims(?) is a black conservative? OR Hilary can’t do any wrong. I see it everyday here in SF area. And to the idiot who asked Pudster about Castro street; does he have family there? Why go into the devil’s playground if you are not associated with the devil?

    Yes this is a liberal blog. But when non-flameflowing questions are asked, where is donnageddon, tj, dj, thehim, torridjoe to answer them? I’ll steal a Pudster line: “Nary a peep.” Where is the Goldy posting saying his hope that Zarqawi is out of commission for good? The lack of open written or oral arguments puts you at odds with those of us who abhore Al Qaeda. We are vocal about it in public. I don’t see that from Teddy Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, unless a liberal Washington DC reporter puts them on the spot, “Nary a Peep”. I like that line. So what if a little torture is applied. It makes them think, “Wow, the US can use our tactics. We better not mess with them.” That is my take about the Russian answer to kidnapping. That Johns Hopkin link is amazing.

    PacMan

  72. 83

    David spews:

    Okay, first the Russia stuff.
    Puddybud:
    you have no response to the KGB actions. As I said before, you treat them with the same force, as these are not civilized people, and they will wilt.
    PacMan:
    So what if a little torture is applied. It makes them think, “Wow, the US can use our tactics. We better not mess with them.” That is my take about the Russian answer to kidnapping.

    Funny, that’s not how most people would react. Now terrorists aren’t “most people” and might have completely different, twisted thought processes when it comes to this. But if you’re a fanatic and you see your enemy stooping to torture and barbarism, and attacking your family, you’d be even madder and want revenge even more. Torturing people to show them ‘we mean business’ won’t make them wilt; it will make them livid. How would you react? Wait—we know the answer. They tortured and killed Pearl, Berg and many others to try to show *us* that *they* mean business . . . I don’t see us losing resolve as a result. Quite the contrary.

  73. 84

    David spews:

    Puddybud:
    I suggest you navigate to the Johns Hopkins site and read the newly declassified KGB documents that the Russians felt the US was winning Vietnam in the early 70’s, but the anti-war crowd caused us to lose. Go there and read for your self. Russia was quietly funding the North Vietnamese when we thought it was China. I was shocked.
    and:
    In the late last century [1990s, not 1890s, right?] some Arab militants captured some Russians, and killed one and held the others for ransom. The KGB found the lead Arab kidnapper’s brother. They killed him, cut off his baggage, and sent it to his mother in a box with a note. The next day the other Russians were let free. They only understand force, it’s their culture . . . again it’s in the declassified KGB files.
    PacMan:
    That Johns Hopkin link is amazing.
    OK, this isn’t particularly apropos of anything, but it’s interesting, so what the heck. But, um, link? What link? I checked out the Soviet (KGB/KPSS) archives at Johns Hopkins but found nothing about them funding the Vietnamese or thinking our anti-war movement made us lose, or relating the story of this terrorist/kidnapping incident. Can you point to anything more specific?

  74. 85

    David spews:

    PacMan:
    Interesting take on the Sabbath, but what makes you [a] scholar on our holy day?
    Studying.

    I don’t follow the three medium stars Sabbath start. When the orb drops I start the Sabbath.
    You won’t hear any criticism from me. This is an academic discussion.

    Does that cause you to walk on water now?
    No, no, you have me confused with another Jew.

    your hatred for Pudster and his political views clouds your mind.
    I don’t hate Pudster or his views. I think he’s wrong often enough, but I read what he says when I see it.

    I see you and others love to disemble when you can,
    Huh? I don’t dissemble (feign, put on a false appearance) about anything here. Did you mean “discuss” or “discourse”?

    …but you skip over other parts of comments from the likes of righton, [ProudASS], and others
    Some things don’t deserve a reply. And why are you complaining? It’s not like you, or they, respond to everything I or Patrick or other liberals write either. Discussion is free-flowing, not everything gets taken up. (Especially not partisan screeds full of insults.)

    I asked questions about liberal thought and none of you care to answer.
    Yeah, Puddybud just mentioned those. I didn’t see ‘em. Can you provide a link? I hope they’re real questions and not loaded/bait questions.

    No middle ground on either side.
    Bah. Patrick’s pretty reasonable; I know I am; Richard Pope is thoughtful; Mr. X is too. There are plenty of non-flaming-partisan types here. Discussions among people who aren’t trying to bite each others’ heads off tend to be more interesting and productive.

    when non-flameflowing questions are asked, where is donnageddon, tj, dj, thehim, torridjoe to answer them?
    I’ve seen them contribute to reasoned back-and-forth discussions. Not so much (though there are exceptions) with the far right trolls. Not that it matters, as long as there are some reasoned voices on both sides, at least most of the time.

    Where is the Goldy posting saying his hope that Zarqawi is out of commission for good? The lack of open written or oral arguments puts you at odds with those of us who [abhor] Al Qaeda. We are vocal about it in public.
    It does not put us at odds. That’s like saying people who pray louder in church love God more. Do you really have a problem believing that Americans hate al Qaeda even though most of us don’t go around all day saying “I hate al Qaeda!”? I’m glad you’re focused on al Qaeda, and that you want to make sure it stays on the front burner (I wish the administration had stayed focused on Osama instead of leaping into Iraq). HorsesAss.org isn’t all about that, though. Goldy’s blog focuses on state politics.

    ‘Nary a Peep’. I like that line.
    Yeah, it’s cute. A bit grandfatherly, though.

  75. 86

    J spews:

    PBJ @ 48:
    You have proved my point entirely. We are not like those who slit David Pearle’s throat, or haven’t been. But with 100 detainees dead in US custody, how different are we? Really, think about what separates what I am guessing you see as Islamic barbarism and the death of detainees in US custody. Maybe we don’t slit throats, but isn’t death death? We don’t video tape it and post it on the web for the world to see. You justify these deaths as was of gathering “intel” where as the killers who slit throats justify the deaths for other purposes. Again, isn’t death death?
    J

  76. 87

    Puddybud spews:

    Mr. David I don’t know where PacMan is but, here is some of the PacMan comments on May 8th:

    I see so much crap here in Caleeeforeeenia that sickens me. The GLA name calling of people who disagree with them and they call themselves enlightened, open-minded individuals? Now I see they seem to have a home on the HA website. I wonder why?

    I wonder why – if I choose to honor my Father and His Son in heaven I am a homophobe.

    I wonder why – if I choose to lead my life repsectful of others, I have to modify my behavior for your benefit.

    I wonder why – if I choose not to support your rantings, I am a racist & a homophobe.

    I wonder why – when I present an apposing view my views are worthless.

    I wonder why – when people express Christian points of view they are dismissed out of hand.

    I can wonder why much more but why should I continue? Some jackass will ridicule this post too without thinking in my shoes for one second. So I wonder why.

    How do create a PacMan symbol Goldy?

    De PacMan

    Pudster.

  77. 89

    Patrick spews:

    International Red Cross confirms Gitmo Koran desecration claims. After Bush administration denials and attempts to smear/pressure Newsweek, the International Red Cross has revealed that as early as 2002, they repeatedly reported numerous researched, credible allegations of Koran maltreatment and desecration at Guantanamo.

    Star for Rightness