My 7-year-old daughter’s favorite political website is, without a doubt, the recently launched Whack a Loophole. She enjoys its informative content, whimsical production values, and “hitting things with a hammer.”
Yeah, sometimes it takes a little humor and creativity to get a point across, and that’s exactly what this fun little parody does. Oh… and it’s a very serious point.
The Legislature is struggling to close yet another multi-billion dollar budget gap; if they’re going to consider further cuts in funding for education, health care, and other essential services, then it’s only fair to put billions of dollars in tax breaks on the table too.
Some of the tax breaks Whack a Loophole makes fun of are incredibly stupid, but relatively small, like exemptions for bull semen insemination ($954,000) or the sale of gold bullion ($5 million.) Others are much more substantial and require some careful consideration, such as the $1.8 billion in revenues lost by not extending the sales tax to professional services like stockbrokers, lawyers, and lobbyists.
The truth is, our tax structure is irreparably broken, and eventually even Republicans are going to have to make the choice between an income tax, or becoming Mississippi. In the meanwhile, we need some temporary fixes to help ease our perpetual budget crisis. The sale of goods is becoming an ever smaller portion of our economy, and if we’re to continue relying on the sales tax for the lion’s share of government revenues, then we’re going to have to extend it to those things that 21st century Washingtonians actually sell… you know… services.
Some people — like the ever-ornery Rep. Ed Orcutt — may object to calling these tax thingies “loopholes”, but by any other name they still have the same impact. Huge portions of our economy currently go untaxed, and it only makes sense to consider whether these “tax preferences” are both fair and productive. Are we getting our money’s worth from these exemptions, and is it fair to the low-income families who shoulder the highest tax burden? Is it fair to our high school graduates for whom there are no available slots at our colleges and universities? Is it fair to the children who are losing their health coverage?
These are all questions that legislators need to ask themselves before whacking another $2.2 billion out of our state budget.
Come on Goldy, service businesses already pay B & O at a higher rate, isn’t that enough?
Consider the fact that there’s a finite pot of money out there that all service businesses draw from to make a living, and the sales tax would come out of that pot. Adding the sales tax to services would just reduce the revenue coming in to service businesses in this state. Causing a loss of “family wage” jobs. If that’s what you want to see, knock yourself out.
I won’t be surprised if “legal services” are the only service businesses left untouched by the time the Democrats are through with this money grab.
Consumers pay the sales tax, not the service providers. And besides, the B&O doesn’t come close to equaling the amount of money a sales tax would raise.
But you are just ignoring reality. We live in a service economy, and yet we’re taxing goods. It just doesn’t make sense, and sales tax revenues simply are not keeping up with economic growth, nor growth in demand for public services.
Goldy,
There are a finite number of customers out there with a finite number of dollars to spend on services, so the revenue coming to the service businesses will be reduced by the sales tax. If the state puts a sales tax on services, total employment in service businesses will take a hit. I think you’d do less damage with the Sims plan.
It’s ironic how our options are entirely on the tax increase side now that Gregoire is in office. Somehow I think that reducing the state payroll is not going to be considered by this administration.
zip @ 3
Where would you reduce the payroll?
Here is the approximate breakdown of state spending: Education 35%, social services 35%, transportation 9%, capital spending 8%, prisons 2%, workplace regulation and benefits for unemployed and injured workers less than 2%, everything else 9%.
Almost all the education money simply passes through the state’s ledgers to school districts; the Sup’t of Public Instruction employs only a couple hundred people.
DSHS, with more than 10,000 employees, is the obvious place to look for job cuts, and is where governors and legislatures look first. But that agency has long since been stripped of fat, and is now down to bone. Who are you going to lay off — child protection caseworkers? What are you going to eliminate — licensing of daycares, nursing homes, and other facilities that serve vulnerable populations? The child support and vocational rehabilitation programs are federally funded so you don’t save state dollars by cutting there. The big bucks in DSHS are Medicaid dollars that go to nursing homes; are you going to kick the elderly out of nursing homes? Where will they go, and who will take care of them?
Transportation has already taken deep cuts and lost a lot of staff. The highway and ferry systems are essential to our economy and if we keep cutting in this department at some point we’ll compromise safety if we haven’t already.
With those three areas — education, social services, and transportation — taking nearly 4/5ths of the dollars, there’s no other places you can go to get $2.2 billion. That’s abvout 40% of all the rest of state government, counting the agencies that are entirely self-supporting and consume no general fund money, such as Lottery and Liquor Control Board. If you cut those agencies, or Revenue, you lose income.
There just aren’t a lot of budget cutting options, Zip. Rossi did it by eliminating state-funded health care for nearly 20,000 low income kids. Is that really the direction you want our state to go? Educators will tell you sick kids can’t learn. Kids who don’t learn later become costs — for social services, prisons and courts, etc.
In my opinion, the most reasonable way to evaluate the state budget is to compare it with other states. Washington ranks about in the middle. Keep in mind, also, that Washington’s state budget on paper is billions of dollars larger than it really is, because the budget counts local school spending that doesn’t appear in other states’ budgets. In most places, school taxes are collected by local taxing jurisdictions, not the state as in Washington. To get a true comparison, you have to subtract the K-12 money from the budget before comparing with other states. After you’ve done that, any argument that Washington’s spending is out of line vaporizes.
It’s our tax structure that is out of whack and needs to be fixed.
Don @ 4
Don – you nailed this one so hard, I couldn’t have done it any better. Honestly, that was quite excellent. You’re exactly right. And the fact of the matter is that we’ve already cut taxes in the last several years.
You know – Zip, we wouldn’t be in this budget hole if it weren’t for Tim Eyman. We need to stop cutting revenue and start raising more to cover the hole we’re in. GOP arguments that we must “live within our means” are absurd. The Republican Party is the party of cowardice. They usually stick to their silly mantra about “no new taxes” and then yell at the Democrats for trying to do the courageous thing – to raise desperately needed revenue.
Taxes are investments in the health of Washington State. If people like you aren’t willing to accept the cost of living in our society, you should move to the Cayman Islands or something.
It’s easy to cut taxes and put a little more change in people’s pockets. It’s harder to raise taxes when needed to cover the things everybody depends on, like roads, schools, and healthcare. You cannot have it all and not pay for it. You MUST look at both sides of the equation.
Zip seems content only to look at one side. But at least there are those of us out there that know better than that.
The Gates Commission found low income households pay 14% of their income to state and local taxes while affluent households pay only 4%. These two numbers describe what is wrong with our tax system and why our state will never be able to its budgetary needs with the existing tax system. You can’t balance the budget on the backs of the state’s poorest citizens. If I have one criticism of Gregoire it is that she shied away making a commitment to fix our state’s dysfunctional tax system, although it’s hard to blame her (or anyone else who doesn’t want to commit political suicide) given the total lack of realism of our state’s voters.
look here guys, I never said cut taxes. How is NOT RAISING TAXES BY OVER $2 BILLION equal to cutting taxes?
MOH, you believe we have been “cutting revenues”? Washington’s budget was $16.2 billion in the 1993-95 biennium and this year’s proposed is $26.15 billion. $10 billion = 61 % increase. During the same time, population grew by 17%.
So I agree our tax system is out of whack and the Sims plan would have been an improvement. But I disagree that we need to continue increasing state spending at this pace.
And please watch who you call “people like you”. What gives you the right to say that I’m not “willing to accept the cost of living in our society”. Have you got a clue what my tax bill is? People like YOU are more than willing to tell me I’m not paying enough when you don’t have a clue how much I pay. People like YOU call a 61% increase over 10 years “cutting revenue”.
Adopting the definition of a “business” unit used by California would bring in Billions. We are using a quaint definition of a biz unit. It (the def of a biz unit for B&O) needs to include all subs in all states and all unconsolidated owned entities. An example of how this works. If you have assets you want taxed at a lower rate, form a Mississippi Sub, transfer the assets there, and Walla Walla Shabang!, no state B&O tax on those assets! Under the California “style” biz unit definition, the mississippi sub is included in the tax base because it includes all subsidiary entitities no matter where they are incorporated.
zip: That 61% spending increase is only 37% after accounting for a 17.6% population increase. Over 12 years, that works out to 2.65%/year — about the same as overall price inflation. When you consider that a large chunk of state money goes to paying health care costs (both as state employee benefits and as aid payments), and that health care costs have been rising much faster than overall inflation, it seems to me that the state has been doing a pretty good job of keeping spending in check.
Nevertheless, costs have increased. We need to pay for them somehow or cut service levels. What do you propose?
I posted an interview a couple of days ago with Sen. Finkbeiner where he talks about the budget.
One of the things he brings up is the problem the state has with cutting its own payroll. The biggest increases in the state budget is health care for state workers.
Health care costs have to get under control. It is the number one issue facing employers and low income people.
scottd
The Sims plan was the only true tax reform I’ve heard and does indeed sound like a step forward. I’m a little more into keeping spending under control than anything.
Zip… I have addressed this issue on TaxSanity, and I suggest you download and read my brief report The Truth about Property Taxes in WA State.”
On pages three and four I discuss total state and local taxes and expenditures, and what you find is that WA closely tracks the national average, and that expenditures as a percentage of personal income have been dropping steadily since 1993. Indeed, if looked at over the past 25 years, expenditures are quite flat. (The chart only shows data through 2000, but expenditures continue to trend down as a percentage of personal income, and are now below 1980 levels.)
This is the important statistic in evaluating our budget, as the economic figure that most closely tracks growth in demand for public services is growth in personal income. As the Gates Commission Report explains, this is because most government services are commodities, and like all commodities, consumption increases with income. Growth in personal income also reflects growth in the economy and ability to pay taxes, as it encompasses population growth, inflation, and real income growth in inflation adjusted dollars.
5….MOH…….”Taxes are investments in the health of Washington State.” ROTFLMAO!!! Only the DON’s of the world believe such garbage!! Taxes are Democrat’s way of “redistributing other’s wealth” in the true Karl Marx “From each….To each”. In most cases, the wealth is redistributed from the earners of the wealth [private sector taxpayers]to those who who vote Democrat [“guvment hacks” [DON], welfare recips, and union thugs who receive contacts from Democrat run “guvment” agencies.
MOH, DON, et al……What if, on the margin, the productive taxpayers merely leave, or shift assets to lower taxed states? [Atlas has Shrugged]. Then, the Democrats would have to tax each other! [Wouldn’t that be fun to see? Kind of like the Hillary Village of Detroit, only with more trees]
#4.DON asks “Where would you reduce the payroll?” Well, DON, let’s start with reducing “guvment” benefits back to the average of the private sector. [I can hear your union hack buddies screaming from Hawaii.]
Mount Olympus Hiker@5
God damn stop with the Eyeman made the sky fall accusations already, the only thing Eyeman did is what the legislature should have done every year but ignored the exorbant tax rates. Shure a few cuts were made, but that is the tip of the iceberg from what need to be made. I am talking about sheer waste here. Go into your average DSHS or unemployment office and look around at some of the people literally looking for things to do to pass the day. Ditto with school district administration offices, what? you say schools dont work for the state? you are wrong, most of the people in the administrative office is deadwood that is required by the state for recieving funds. Even the police could make cuts, while the government is trying to tell me to conserve fuel and take a bus, the police departments are driving aroung in Ford Explorers and Lincoln navigators, some of the biggest fuel hogs made! Yes there are plenty of cuts that can be made, so dont try that poor Washington government cant afford to cut anything.
Guys, this has been an excellent discussion.
I think the timing is just about right. We need tax reform along the lines of the Sims plan and the Gates Commission.
In exchange the legislature can hold the line on spending for this biennium to buy some time while everyone gets used to the change.
I’m writing my representatives today.
Thanks for bringing this subject up again Goldy. At the very least, the business exemptions, subsidies, preferences & loopholes should be subject to review to prove the government is “getting its money’s worth”. After all, the GOP is all about auditing, right?
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c.....php#004946
(For those that don’t like to click on links – GOP in Georgia wants to pass a law shielding corporate give-backs from review). Republicans are all about government transparency unless it’s their businesses we’re talking about making transparent.
Even the police could make cuts, while the government is trying to tell me to conserve fuel and take a bus, the police departments are driving aroung in Ford Explorers and Lincoln navigators, some of the biggest fuel hogs made!
I can see it now. Nothing but mountain bikes and minis for our police officers. Tie the criminals to the roof racks! :)
More seriously, if American car manufacturers would make more fuel-efficient cars, the police would be driving them. Do you want our police driving around Honda Accord hybrids? Then the GOP would be yelling “buy American”
Just because the manufacturer builds a bohemoth that doesnt mean the police need one, american manufacturers also built the Spruce Goose, does that mean the police department need one?
By the way, the manufacturers DO make more efficient cars than Explorers and Navigators…and a lot less expensive as well.
Hi – a question for the people who have read the Gates Commission report (I’ll read it later, I promise :)). The 14% and 4% numbers, for the lowest and highest income earners tax burdens respectively – does that include all taxes paid by a person living in WA? Or are we talking about state taxes only? Where does the property tax fit in, is it part of the 4% and 14% number?
Thanks! I know, I am being lazy…
And why do things have to be so extreme with you libs, by the way, I point out that the police are cruising around in some of the largest most expensive and least fuel efficient cars, you accuse me of wanting them in a Honda Hybrid, no that wasnt my point at all, I want them to use the average thing in cost and fuel efficiency, AVERAGE, you know like the american public, average. Mini vans are good, as well as roomy…get the idea?
Chuck – Do you not understand why the police might use larger cars? Why they might have chosen not to armor a smaller, more flexible vehicle for their use? Perhaps it has something to do with their jobs. Same reason taxi drivers tend to drive a certain type of vehicle.
Or perhaps it’s the same reason the military commissioned the Humvee and the Apache & Tomahawk, rather than retrofitting civilian SUVs and Traffic helicoptors.
The police are not average consumers. Yet another example where you have no idea what you’re talking about, and yet claim you’ve found clear examples of wasteful spending.
Chuck @ 16
I agree with you about Tim Eyman only to the extent that he is not responsible for passing his iniatives, we are (he does get a little blame, though, for his inaccurate statements/lies on their behalf).
Which police departments have Lincoln Navigators and Ford Explorers? I haven’t seen any. Are they special purpose vehicles?
I recently had to go to have my driver’s license renewed. Despite a dingy building and a lot of people present going through the ritual of getting or renewing, the staff was friendly but very efficient. Let me repeat, very efficient. I have lived long enough to be not very impressed by many things, but I was impressed. When were you last in a DHSH or State Employment office, and which ones were you in, that you base your criticism on?
BTW, I know it would be adding to the regressive nature of our state tax/fee system to increase it, but $22 for a driver’s license which is good for 4 or 5 years, seems incredibly inexpensive. I wonder if it even covers the costs of administering the system?
The police are no more average than a Boeing empoyee or a military man out on buisiness, they simply should drive vehicles according to their job, if it is traffic control, possibly a mini van, if it is prisoner transportation, a larger van could do well, or bus depending upon the situation, if it is a detective, a Geo or Focus may be the thing. Just because your job entails using wood, it doesnt mean you need a logging truck at work.
Which police departments have Lincoln Navigators and Ford Explorers? I haven’t seen any. Are they special purpose vehicles?>>>>>>>>>>>
Go look at the Pierce County fleet, Navigators, Explorers, Suburbans, large blazers are the backbone of the fleet (even a few Escalades)
My license is like $75.00 on renewal. Now when you go into these offices pay attention to what these people are actually DOING. Not the look busy bustle, look at the crossword puzzles being worked, the ones reading the paper, ect.
Chuck@27
Ya, I have to agree….. Over east of the mountains, the local law enforcement, has several helicopter, rarely used.
They have so many brand new 4 wheel drive diesel suv’s and trucks, i lost count.
They have a very nice selection of boats, motorcycles, jet ski’s etc.
Now of course, they all need new tasers, and the latest swat team tactical gear.
These guys driving around writing tickets, look like they’re ready to storm panama. LOL!
Seems, there could be more money available than what they actually need to perform their function properly.
I also heard they were getting a large sum of money from homeland security funds, or already did get it, and were trying to find someplace to waste,..er…i mean spend it.
Goldy, Goldy, you know Gregoire is notorious for “gilding the lily” by falsely laying out budgets, don’t you? When in Ecology, she “trumped” up some scheme to get more money by transferring all the permit writers and then claiming she needed money for more permit writers. Democrat math?
Goldy, whatever happened to the fiscally conservative party we have been hearing about? Aren’t the Democrats the party of fiscal restraint? And I almost believed it, to be honest, but it seems the true colors are coming out.
But I still agree that we need an income tax, but with the caveat, that the sales tax must disappear.
Chuck @ 27, 28
Have you asked a responsible official in the Pierce County Sheriff’s department (if this is the offending party) why they use these vehicles? Do you know for a fact that they are “the backbone” of the fleet? Is it possible they lease their vehicles through some competitive bidding process? In other words, do you really know what you are talking about, or are you simply ranting?
I confess I do not understand your response in 28. Are you suggesting that I didn’t see what I saw, I didn’t experience what I experienced, when I had my license renewed? Is your “like $75” fee for a special purpose license. I know mine cost $22, and it has every appearance of being a legitimate license. Also, you didn’t mention which DHSH or State Employment office you had been in recently on which you based your criticism. My question again is, do you really know what you are talking about, or are you simply ranting?
zip @ 7
Population growth (= increased demand for services especially education) and inflation account for most of the 61%. The state hasn’t been adding or expanding programs in the last 12 years.
Mypoint I guess was that I have a motorcycle endorsement as well as a CDL, in my esteemed opinion it costs no more to put a motorcycle endorsement upon a driving license (giving them the benifet if doubt about the CDL extra charge) In my opinion you hit the license dept on a very lucky day, however they have gotten better admitedly, but they are still out manned, dont let the window dressing in front fool you.
Do you know for a fact that they are “the backbone” of the fleet?>>>>>>
Yes go look at the fleet on meridian and 176th st.
Don@32
I dont buy that statement.
Vince @ 10
Health care is not only THE issue for state spending, it’s also THE issue for the federal budget, employers, and families. In the past health spending was about 10% of GDP but has risen to 15% and is climbing toward 20%. A large part of this increased allocation of national resources to health care is unavoidable because the nation’s population is aging. Something like 90% of an individual’s lifetime health costs occur in the last three years of life. Very simply, the bill is coming due on the huge number of older people in our society, as foreseen decades ago. At least two other factors contribute to rising medical costs: Improved (and more expensive) medical care and technology (e.g., CAT scans, kidney dialysis, treatments for previously uncurable diseases); and increased demand for medical care (including optional treatments such as elective drugs and surgeries) across all sectors of society as the nation becomes more affluent. Also, the number of uninsured is growing rapidly, most of whom still receive at least basic health care, the cost of which is being shifted to insurance companies, paying patients, and taxpayers which of course drives up spending by those sectors.
Jiminy Cockroach Hater @ 14
As I recall, you are an ex-stockbroker comfortably retired in Hawaii is this correct? What do stockbrokers produce? Nothing, they just help push money in circles. A farmer “produces” something; so does a Boeing mechanic working on an assembly line, or a union baker in a Hostess Twinkies plant. But a lawyer, doctor, accountant (e.g. Mr. Cynical), teacher, banker, or truck driver doesn’t “produce” anything except services; neither does a business manager, for that matter. And yet, by the conventional understanding of “productive work,” a state prison guard is “productive” as is a receptionist for a private real estate office. Arguably real estate speculators aren’t productive at all, but merely parasites feeding on the rest of us; yet some of them make gobs of money (then retire comfortably to Hawaii or wherever). Are you arguing that a person who made his money by driving up real estate prices for the rest of us is “productive” but a state employee who drives a snowplow in Snoqualmie pass at 2 a.m. in the winter isn’t, simply because the former makes 1,000 times as much money as the latter? The silliness of your rants may not be apparent to you, but it’s apparent to everyone else reading this board, except those who like you shove aside facts and logic that don’t happen to dovetail with your ideological agenda. Regardless of how you made your life, it’s a fact that you’ve received and benefited from government services all your life, and continue to do so. You just don’t want to pay for them. You want someone else to pay for them, so you can freeload. That’s how the rich get rich, isn’t it? With OPM? (Other people’s money)
JCH @ 15
I’m sure the average “union thug” would be happy to scale back his wage schedule to your average earnings so that he, too, could someday live comfortably retired in Hawaii.
chuck @ 16
It’s clear you haven’t been in a DSHS office for a long time, if ever. Foster care caseworkers have such large workloads that they are able to make in-home visits to foster families only once a year, if that much. The situation is the same with all other DSHS caseworkers across the entire range of programs. These people are worked extremely hard and starting pay is less than $30,000 a year for jobs requiring a 4-year degree. They haven’t had a COLA in four years. And you have the gall to talk about “waste”? As for cops driving big fast vehicles, that’s necessary so they can catch speeders (and crooks) driving big fast vehicles. Do you want the police to drive VWs? Then how about putting our fighter pilots in hang gliders, trading in the Army’s tanks for mopeds, and the Navy’s ships for rowboats, to save gas? You are an idiot.
jcricket @ 18
Not exactly. Republicans, for all their hypocritical pontificating about “waste fraud and abuse” are all about lining their own pockets with taxpayer money. Gee-Dub is the biggest spending president ever, and never has so much public money been simply given away to corporations, with little or no public benefit in return. I recently read that contributors who have donated something like $4 billion to GOP campaigns since 2000 have gotten back over $400 billion in tax cuts and largesse. I sure as hell don’t get a rate of return like that on MY bank accounts, money funds, or stocks. Nearly all of Bush’s cabinet are ex-CEOs, and none of them ran businesses that had to compete in open, unsubsidized free markets; they all ran big companies that feed on government contracts and subsidies. These people know nothing about competing, and everything about lobbying and sucking on the public tit. These stupid middle class Republicans who are getting raped along with the rest of us shut their eyes to the realities, the hypocrisies, and mouth the party-issued talking points. You want to see government waste? How about the billions of dollars that simply disappear in Iraq? How about “private contractor” truck drivers and security guards in Iraq who are paid $1,000 a day with public money? How about Halliburton collecting $100 a case for Coca Cola delivered to troops in Kuwait? I’m tired of listening to the Republicans’ bullshit. This isn’t about money at all. It’s about their hatred for public education, public power, unions, and anything else that doesn’t put enough profit into THEIR pockets. It’s about greed and selfishness, period.
Frank @ 22
State and local, not federal.
chuck @ 23
Police departments DO use minivans and fuel-efficient vehicles where appropriate for the mission. Haven’t you ever seen a meter maid’s parking scooter?
chuck @ 28
Now you’re simply lying.
OK, Goldy, DON, and the rest of you socialists!! Your “International Brothers” have another great idea on how to “redistribute the wealth”!! This is right out of the Hillary/Don/Communist playbook!! [Read On!!] Wednesday, March 2, 2005
China’s ambassador to the United Nations last week called for international controls on the Internet.
Chinese Ambassador Sha Zukang told a UN conference that controls should be multilateral, transparent and democratic, with the full involvement of governments, the private sector, civil society and international organizations.
“It should ensure an equitable distribution of resources, facilitate access for all and ensure a stable and secure functioning,” he said at the conference on Internet governance. [“From each…., To Each….”…..Marx, Hillary, and Don]
RDC @ 31
The $75 Chuckie is talking about is the vehicle renewal fee, not driver license fee. The vehicle fee money goes to roads (and also a chunk for Sound Transit and public transit if you live in King, Snohomish, or Pierce counties). Apparently Chuckie believes highways and bridges can be built and maintained for less than $75 per vehicle a year, plus the gas tax. One of the problems with the gas tax is that as vehicles get more fuel-efficient the state receives less revenue per vehicle-mile but still has to provide highways and bridges for the same amount of vehicle miles. That’s one of the reasons why the legislature keeps raising the gas tax. Other reasons: More vehicle ownership and usage per household; inflation; need for infrastructure replacement and expansion due to aging of existing facilities and population growth. But these subtleties are way over the heads of some folks.
chuck @ 33
Why don’t you take your staffing suggestions to the head of Licensing? He needs to find about 5% to 10% of his budget to cut. I’m sure he’ll appreciate your management insights.
chuck @ 35
Then I suggest you invest dozens or hundreds of hours of your personal time in reviewing state budgets, programs, and agency plans over several budget cycles and reach your own conclusions.
Whack a loophole put into practice would be good. Better yet ,,, Whack a subsidy. You all are arguing over such symantics.
I’m pretty sure both democrat and republican party members alike would agree on fiscal responsibility.
How about core WA govt. spending before add ons? How about funding Emergency Services, Education, Transportation before pet projects like Art for Landfills?
Oh ,,, better yet? How about running the govt. like a business? Spend w/in your means. Binding performance audits. Goals and schedules. Save money for capital expenditures instead of raising taxes for them? OMG?!?! What a frightening concept.
Chuck @ 33
Not having a personal interest, I’ve never checked into the reasonableness of the fee for a commercial or motorcycle endorsement. If $75 is for several years, that fee seems very reasonable. I wouldn’t complain if the fee for my regular driver’s license for 4 years was $75.
But you dodged all of the other questions in my #31, and added another vague accusation against the Department of Licensing by hinting that you know from some personal knowledge or research that behind the scenes they are overstaffed. My observation was that they could have used more help. All, repeat all, of the people I saw working were kept very busy.
I’m not trying to harass you–I think that you are likely a reasonably intelligent guy–but it is just laziness, and a very bad habit to get into, to just bitch and moan about this thing or that without having actually looked into the facts.
All this said, I’d still like to know your answers to the questions in my #31.
As for cops driving big fast vehicles, that’s necessary so they can catch speeders>>>>>>>
I hate to tell you this but this is the 21st century, we now have another peice of police gear called the radio, and it catches speeders as well as other lawbreakers if used. he big powerful police cruiser is a thing of the past (and explorers and navigators are far from fast). ne more time you went to the extreme with your comment on VWs, again I am having to correct a liberal on what I was implying, the police need no more than the average car to do the job in most cases.
Don43
No lying here.
Soundcrossing @48,
“Spending within one’s means” is a great sounding concept, unfortunately it gets government kind of backwards. The purpose of government is not to spend tax revenues. The purpose tax revenues is to fund the services voters want from their government.
You talk as if there’s some fixed amount of tax revenues, and government will just have to make do with that. But it avoids the real debate over the proper size and scope of government… specifically, what do voters really want from government? Voters want these services that are being cut. They’ve voted to decrease class size and increase teacher pay. They overwhelming support providing enough higher ed slots to educate our young people. They want more roads, AND public transit.
Let’s have the debate over what kind of government voters want before we put the lid on tax revenues.
And dont give me the dshs and dol people bust the proverbial nut, I know people that work there (yes conservative like me) that know how to call a spade a spade.
Jiminy Cockroach Hater @ 44
It always amuses me to hear a leech talk about “redistributing wealth” and “socialism.”
chuck @ 50
“we now have another peice of police gear called the radio, and it catches speeders as well as other lawbreakers if used”
Are you serious? You aren’t serious, are you? Do you really believe this? Holy shit.
I am very serious, we do not need people with 4 times the accident rate of the average citizen (yes that is true) fying up and down out roads at breakneck speeds when we can catch the villans with technology
Goldy – The thing is you have it backward. I believe it something like “by the people for the people.” Not by the government for whatever the government wishes. Your swallowing of that particular Kool-Aid just shows that you can’t, or refuse, to think for yourself.
You answered a perfectly independent question with the democrat party line talking points; Govt. knows best, unless we as the democrat party are out of power, then WE know best and the govt. is all wrong.
Taxes are/should be for essential govt. services.
What do voters really want?
Goldy isn’t Vermont (maybe it’s Mass) that put in the alternate tax bracket where you could opt to pay more if you thought the state govt was spending wisely? Virtually nobody elected to pay more.
Tell me, why do we in WA keep having to vote for levies to pay for essential services? Easy answer, the govt. knows we will so they spend the money on crap and then ask for money for emergenciy services or schools, etc.
And that puts me on another little rant .. why when the people vote to fund Cost of Living increases for teachers (the people) the Democrat WA governor pulls those increases in a tight budget? WA govt tends to do what it wants, not what the people ask of it.
And Chuck???? What are you smokin’?
I quit smoking two years ago (and it was tobbacco)
Chuck @ various #s
I have sent to the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department a request for information about their fleet, citing the concern about using large and expensive vehicles vs regular sedans, and so on. When I recieve a response, I will post it on this thread, if it is still active, or on another thread if it isn’t, when I see your name.
54….DON “It always amuses me to hear a leech talk about “redistributing wealth” and “socialism.”
Comment by Don— 3/2/05 @ 1:05 pm”…..Don, I work in the private sector. All my client relationships are VOLUNTARY. Can you say the same? And you, as a “guvment” parasite, call me a “leech”? You make your living off of taxpayers. I make my living in the private sector. You calling me a leech is like Jesse Jackson calling the pope black.
Soundcrossing @57,
Perhaps you were confused by a typo. I fixed the error (changed “find” to “fund”), and I’ll repeat the section for you here:
Do you have a problem with that? Do you still think I have it backwards?
X @ X
So what do they need all the dirt bikes, jet skis, 4 wheelers, mountain bikes, snomobiles, speed boats, etc. for?
chuck @ 56
I half agree with you this time. There appears to be at least one state trooper who needs to have his patrol car taken away from him. I’m talking about the guy with three accidents.
Goldy—
NEWS FLASH!!
Your Left WingNut friends in Olympia are now proposing a Blogging Tax Bill on the sponsor of a blog.
Effective 11/2/04—you must pay $500/post on your blog.
They have a special exemption however for LEFTY’s who excedd 9.3 on the Whacko scale, so I think you are all right…in fact, I’m sure you will qualify for the “special exemption”.
WHEWWWWWW!
soundcrossing @ 57
The voters didn’t vote to fund those teacher raises. They voted for an initiative to give teachers raises and voted against taxes to pay for them. Get something for nothing — it’s the American Way. Detroit figured out 100 years ago the average American will gladly pay $3,000 for a $2,000 rebate.
JCH @ 61
You just couldn’t resist getting in a racist dig, could you? If you met some of my “clients” you would be more than happy to pay taxes for their involuntary relationship with me, because they deserved someone like me.
Jiminy Cockroach Hater @ 44
It always amuses me to hear a leech talk about “redistributing wealth” and “socialism.”
Comment by Don— 3/2/05 @ 1:05 pm
[DON, Mr. Cynical is still waiting for a copy of your signature to compare with the 300 forged sigs found in King County. I figure this will happen about the same time John “Fonda” Kerry signs his “Form 180”. I have a “Form 180”, DON, but I doubt that you do.
Cynical @ 65
Goddam, did he get out of the rubber room again? Call the white coat guys to come and get him.
Diggindude @ 63
I don’t know, and apparently you don’t either. Check it out, Dude, and let us know the answer.
67…DON ” If you met some of my “clients” you would be more than happy to pay taxes for their involuntary relationship with me…” No Don, I wouldn’t. [What a goofy post. Why would I wish to pay someone else’s taxes? DON, You’ve been in the “Guvment” sector too long.]
JCH @ 71
Fine, don’t pay me to deal with my “clients.” Fuck you, deal with them yourself.
soundcrossing @ 48
There is no such thing as per cent for art at landfills. Ther largest remaining publicly operated landfill in Wa in in King County and it absolutely does not have an art requirement. Cute attacks may be fun, but don’t advance the discussion.
JCH in at least two locations (I can’t keep up as I actually work)
You are on your crusade against the Junior Senator from the State of New York again. And she’s in the minority party no less. Quite an obsession you’ve got.
rdc@70
maybe you could send a bcc to chelan county.
Don @ 69–
Is that your best shot Don????
You are slipping. I’m worried about you.
Perhaps you have failed to heed my advice that it is a medically proven fact that heavy pot-smoking and Prozac combined can lead to early Alzheimer’s.
Oh Donnnnnnn…..???
Good thing Goldy structured this blog to retain your name after you post. You would have a helluva time otherwise!!
Actually I have a couple problems:
1: We voted to fund raises for teachers and the govt. in its wisdom pulled that funding.
2: We have consistently over the last few years voted to curtail taxes because we feel our state govt. isn’t spending wisely.
How is it ok to ignore the populace of the state when we say enough is enough?
Most people with half a brain understand that if you cut taxes you consequently end up cutting programs. Did you notice that the only people crying about the Initiative tax cuts were government officials?
There is too much waste in WA state. I’m intimately familiar with a couple departments in Olympia. How can you have managers that manage nothing? No programs? No people? No department? They aren’t managers but their title and pay say they are.
Or why don’t you look at school district management and heirarchy? Massive waste.
People are tired of paying for the waste. Most of us don’t mind paying taxes when the money is spent wisely. When that happens we’ll stop whining.
Don @ 66:
Actually it’s the WA state legislature that decide what to fund and what not to. We voted for the initiative and it was the democrat led government that decide there were more important things than paying for teachers raises. But we expect that. It seems dems are always running on “we are for the schools” but our schools are consistently hurting (coming from a family of teachers I know). What is that some sick form of job securtiy for you all?
K @ 73:
Sorry I should have said “Transfer Stations.” Look it up though.
1: We voted to fund raises for teachers and the govt. in its wisdom pulled that funding.
I thought we voted to give teachers raises. Isn’t problem that there was no funding provided for in the initiative?
Chuck @ 53
Calling a spade a spade is almost universally admired. Calling a spade a steam-shovel or a trowel is what gets you in trouble.
Diggindude @ 75
Chelan County is more in your neighborhood, I think. I am serious; send an email to the sheriff’s department and ask them for particulars on any equipment they have that you question the need for. If the sheriff’s department doesn’t list an email address, send it to the county government.
Chuck Me @ 80
I meant to say “…that gets a person in trouble.” You aren’t the only one with this malady.
rdc @ 80
last time i called them on something in public, i got several speeding tickets………….lol!
RDC@81
Sometimes when you dig with a spade you donnt get stuck with the rocks, just pure liberal manure (bullshit) and that bugs the libs as well as makes them think you are using a steam shovel when it is only a spade…
#82..Diggindude..”last time i called them on something in public, i got several speeding tickets”. Several? Any DWIs? 502s? Sounds like another crinimal Democrat on the highways, prpbably without insurance.
JCH @ 68
Send him your signature. That should solve the mystery.
Cynical @ 76
I’m trying to maintain some differentiation between you and JCH. You’re a better class of idiot than he is. That’s not saying much, but take what you can get.
Soundcrossing @ 78
I’m well familiar with the law. It calls for one percent of the qualifying costs of above grade construction on facilities open to the public to be dedicated to public art. Landfills do not qualify for several reasons. I suspected it was just another example of sloppy generalizations many of you are so quick to through around.
Programs are in place because there is a law requiring them. Those laws are advocated by voters. One person’s government waste is another’s essential program. Government does provide services which are inefficient. Consider rural postal service, ferry’s which are not self supporting. All have a constituency.
soundcrossing @ 78
You come from a family of teachers? I see. Let me ask you a question. Did any of the teachers in your family go on strike for more money? The way this works is the legislature rewards striking teachers and punishes state employees for not striking by taking money away from the state employees to give to the teachers. And don’t blame this on the Democrats. The Democrats didn’t control the Senate until a month ago.
“JCH @ 68
Send him your signature. That should solve the mystery.”
Comment by Don— 3/2/05 @ 8:03 pm [Don, do you think the 300 votes in King County all signed by the same person went to the Republican or Democrat? Shall we bet a monthly salary, DON?]
jch @ 84
sound like a loudmouth red wacko. typical talk a lot say nothing republican shit flinger. have i got it about right?
seems youve taken many days to say what? you dont like public employees? wow, im impressed.
keep yappin, your buddy dino the real estate thief, is passed out on a barstool somewhere waitin for you to go cheer him up.
As the population increases so does revenue, it should balance out. It’s all smoke and mirrors. Democrats are famous for raising taxes.
JCH @ everywhere
stfu
You too Cynical…
Good conversation otherwise.
Only thing I’ve got at the moment, aren’t some of the vehicles, boats, jet skis, etc the cops use gotten through seizure? Even so, the cost of operating them must be high, though. Would be a good point of investigation.
Government does provide services which are inefficient. Consider rural postal service>>>
Consider the people working for an efficient comany that could do it less that is being kept ot because of government laws? Can you say anti trust?
ferry’s which are not self supporting. All have a constituency.>>>
And the dozens of ferry companies (bus companies as well) (possibly hundreds by todays standards) that were put out of buisiness by the state…now what were we after Bill Gates for? Oh its OK when the government does it…
g davis @ 92
im sure they would like you to think that, but sadly, you are paying for them.
diggin @ 94
Probably. Was feeling magnanimous last night though… ;0
How about we all go to our local enforcement agencies and politely ask about their *fleets*. Might get some interesting detail. Or at the least, some entertaining spin. ;0
Don @ 88:
Actually my family members voted against striking. But since as a teacher you are forced to Unionize there isn’t much choice is there? It’s either strike or be ostracized.
And don’t give me that over generalization crap. Things come in over-arching generalities as well as minute increments. Waste is waste, whether it is at the federal, state, or local level.
Ferry service? Busses? Rail (isn’t it the Sounder that actually loses $36,000 per day)? Yep, all subsidized. Actually I’m happy to help pay for them. I know the ferry system heirarchy is bloated, one of the captains is a good friend of mine so I get a little (a lot of) insight there.
Just one more argument for binding audits. But hey, you all don’t want that because you equate govt. spending as some sick form altruism. “Hey we are spending money it must be good.”
See I’m one of those “conservatives” that actually agrees with some of the subsidies, with helping out, but have enough sense to realize that we, as taxpayers, deserve to have our money spent wisely.
Good conversation between different viewpoints is always good.
To that end, would you mind explaining your vision of binding audits soundcrossing?
Thanks.
G Davis @ 97:
Currently, as I understand it, when an audit happens in our governmental institution the Auditors are allowed to make suggestions on changes that could help save money ,,,, but the agencies are not under any obligation to implement any of the suggestions to save taxpayers money.
And that is when the Auditor is actually allowed to Audit. So in the case of the RTA currently they “self audit”, but there is nothing backing up a poor audit. The state Auditor should be allowed to Audit any state entity and make suggestions.
A binding audit would force the audited entity to actually implement the cost saving measures an audit may find.
So a little hypothetical:
An auditor finds that a state agency’s clientel has decreased by 50% (maybe it’s road construction, a case load, decrease in publicly owned land, etc) but there has been no decrease in employees, expenditures, office space, whatever. An auditor may suggest a decreace in one, or all, of those areas.
The government doesn’t lose any money here because that money can be “re-tasked” to a department that may be growing.
Shoot it’s called budgeting. It is common sense business. Size to the task. Lean an efficient. Whatever buzzword you want to put on it.
I agree it sucks to be the person who has their funding pulled, staff reduced, program cut but we can’t, as a state, employ people or fund projects that are not needed. It sounds tough but I’ve been RIF’d in the past because my project reached the end of its life in the private sector.
Sorry if this sounds at all disjointed but had to dash it off fast.
JCH @ 89
One step at a time, honeybunch. It remains to be proven whether there are, in fact, 300 KC ballots signed by the same person or if that’s just more GOP bullshit. But if it’s so, I’ll gladly wager a month of my income against a month of your income that no one connected with either the Gregoire campaign or the state Democratic Party had anything to do with it.
chuck @ 93
“Government does provide services which are inefficient. Consider rural postal service>>>”
“Consider the people working for an efficient comany that could do it less that is being kept ot because of government laws? Can you say anti trust?”
This is just about the most laughable piece of crapola posted on HA yet by a wingnut. There’s plenty of contracting out experience to draw on, and it’s no mystery what happens when government services are outsourced to private contractors.
What happens is the contractors skim off the cream and leave the unprofitable parts of the job for the government service provider to perform. Private schools, for example, only take the best students and won’t touch the expensive hard-to-teach kids, e.g. those with learning disabilities and behavior problems.
Or just look at Iraq for an example of what outsourcing costs. When I was in Vietnam the PX system got Coca-Cola to the troops for about 10 cents a can. In Iraq, Halliburton does it for about 10 dollars a can. So much for cost efficiencies.
Can you say “ripoff”??
soundcrossing @ 96
unsound mind @ 78: “It seems dems are always running on “we are for the schools” but our schools are consistently hurting (coming from a family of teachers I know). What is that some sick form of job securtiy for you all?”
unsound mind @ 96: “And don’t give me that over generalization crap.”
HA HA HA HAR HAR HAW HAW HEE HOO HA HA HAR UNGHHHH SPLUTTER FLOOOEEYY PFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTT
Goddam, you made me spit my coffee all over my computer screen!!! Paper towels, please.
soundcrossing @ 98
Government, like business, must be prepared to serve its customers when they show up at the door; and the customers come when they feel like it, not at management’s convenience.
If a business doesn’t promptly serve its customers, they go elsewhere. Government’s customers expect service as good as they get from the private sector, and complain if they don’t get it. In many cases, government is required by law to provide the service within a stated period of time. In addition, government’s customers don’t have the option of choosing another service provider, so the imperative on government employees to provide prompt and accurate custoer service is even higher than it is in private business.
It’s simply not true that service businesses lay people off or send employees home during slow periods. If you employ a service technician that takes years to train and weeks or months to get up to speed, it would be pretty stupid to let that person go during a slow period and then have to start over with a new person when customer traffic picks up again, wouldn’t it? In the real world, most businesses don’t do that.
In any case, your insinuation that there are state employees sitting around twiddling their thumbs is nonsense. I’ve spent many years in the offices of various state agencies and I haven’t seen anyone idle for lack of work to do. On the other, virtually every caseworker and receptionist I’ve seen over the years was overworked, pressured, and stressed. If you think working for the state is a bed of roses then I suggest you get yourself hired for one of those plum high paying state jobs with great benefits and lavish retirement plans where all you do is sit around all day. Why work when you can get paid for playing, eh? Check back with us when you find one.
Don @ 102:
I’m glad that has been your experience because it certainly hasn’t always been mine and that is the perspective I bring. Working in a city govt for 9 yrs I saw plenty of waste and yes people working hard too.
And actually it is true that businesses lay people off when it gets slow. DOH!!! Boeing comes to mind. Holy crap. What kind of business philosophy is it that says I’m going to keep everybody on payroll indefinetely on the chance we might get customers? Ohhhhhhh it’s the govt.’s business philosophy. See? You have your “customers” hostage because they are required to pay you even though your service or job is obsolete. You never have to make any changes.
And the kicker is ???? if everybody is so busy and there is no waste then having your department or program audited should be no big deal right?
sound @ 103
Who’s against auditing? I haven’t seen anyone oppose it on this board, and the Democratic legislature just passed a performance audit bill that is supported by the Democratic governor. However, a form of auditing has existed in state government for many years because agencies do have to justify their budgets and results to the governor’s budget writers and legislators. Few state agencies are ever in the position of reducing their workforces because of slack business. What happens far more frequently is that budget constraints prevent them from hiring up to needs and they have to figure out how to get all the work done with the inadequate resources they are given. I don’t know about the city bureaucracy, except that city jobs pay a lot better than state jobs.
Spoken like a true state employee. Internal auditing as it stands now has no teeth and you know it.
And the current “audit bill” is the same. The rammed it through because they are worried about the populace demanding something stronger. Just hoping that this will take the wind out the voters sails.
Soundcrossing (if anyone is still coming back here)…
I don’t have any major quarrel with your comments, except to say that one problem I see with binding audit recommendations is that they presuppose that the auditors are all-seeing, all-knowing, and infallible, which never has been nor ever will be the case.
Don, truthfully JCH is not a troll or a leach…he is more like a tick, sucked blood from his clients until they had no more, then he fell off to find another naive investor and the chain continued
soundcrossing from your description of binding audits, I’d have to agree with RDC @ 106.
Where would these auditors come from? Do we hire herds of them so we have each trained in each area of government service?
I do agree with you partially that there is inordinate waste in government. I also agree with partially with Don that some of that is the nature of the beast.
So how do we change it? And particularly, how do we change it with legislatures constantly passing inane bills that require government employees to administer them?
All. Great conversation!!
-Concerns on how to implement binding audits. I realize that there is no way to audit everything all the time. We’d have to pick a starting point and go from there.
I’m assuming that this being govt. there is a paper trail for just about everything, including job roles. I say start at one program and do a thorough job. Large corporations hire companies to do this all the time. They do it under a different name though and these people are called “efficiency experts.” They audit, income (budget), processes, employee roles, department descriptions as opposed to actual work, etc.
In my view the problem stems from the fact that legislators, like all of us, pay a finite amount in taxes but they have these massive budgets that basically disassociate them from the fact that they are spending taxpayers money.
Don is right that we as taxpayers and citizens ask for a lot of things. And we get upset when we don’t get them or have to pay for them. AND we raise hell. But this won’t change until legislators start working for what is right instead of working toward saying anything to stay in office.
Think of how they (and we) talk about the govt. “Democrats are in power / Republicans are in power.” In my eyes that is the wrong way to think about their position. They are the citizens advocates. I don’t know ANY citizen that advocates for RTA. I do know a lot of people that advocate for smart mass transit which RTA is not.
I challenge you to research the alternatives that were tendered for the RTA light rail project. You will find options out there that are less (far less) expensive, easier to implement and take less time. But since our govt. officials aren’t willing to look past light rail we are stuck with an amazing boondoggle. Once you’ve looked at the alternatives and compare it to what we are getting I then challenge you to argue for the current plan.
I should have also said, “And there is how govt. waste gets started.”