Times endorses No on I-1033

As expected, the Seattle Times has endorsed No on I-1033, as will most every other newspaper in the state.  But while it is a responsible editorial, and fairly well argued, I couldn’t help reading it with an involuntary roll of the eyes, for some of the common misconceptions the editors attempt to correct, happen to be ones they’ve worked damn hard to create.

The Times now argues that Washington is not a high tax state (in fact, we’re 35th by Tim Eyman’s own source), but this will strike many readers as quite contrary to the impression the Times itself has left over the past few years, whether arguing for estate tax repeal, or in favor of an all-cuts budget, or in support of Dino Rossi and other conservative Republicans. Even former state Republican Party Chair Chris Vance has acknowledged that King County’s budget woes are largely due to a structural revenue deficit, not out of control spending, a fact based reality the Times appears pained to grasp.

I-1033, unlike I-601, applies to counties and cities as well. In all of them, growth in property-tax revenue is limited to 1 percent plus taxes on new construction. Cities and counties are finding it a hard limit to live with. Any further limit on their tax collections should be up to the citizens in each jurisdiction.

Further limits? The existing 1 percent cap is an arbitrary and ridiculous limit that is already eroding the ability of local governments to provide basic services, and the Times is willing to even suggest the notion of further limits… and in an anti-1033 editorial no less?

There are two reasons why Eyman’s I-1033 still has a chance to pass. 1) Investment banker Michael Dunmire; without his money none of Eyman’s recent measures would have qualified for the ballot; and 2) Our state and local media have relentlessly created the impression in the minds of many voters that Washington is a high-tax state with out of control spending… and editorializing against Eyman’s initiative once every year or so, is not enough to change that impression.

Comments

  1. 1

    Zotz spews:

    And…

    This is an off year election at which the wingnuts will be out in force voting on R-71.

    Pretty fucking scary, I think.

  2. 2

    X'ad spews:

    Sounds like Rovian politics of 2004 when he mobilized voters that were panicked that gays were taking over the earth in order to get people to vote for Loser W. Bush while they were at the polls anyway.

  3. 3

    Piper Scott spews:

    @2…X’dOut…

    No…it’s called democracy, which is something you do not understand or accept.

    The Piper

  4. 6

    Piper Scott spews:

    @4…Goldy…

    Unlike you, I love and believe in America and its foundational precepts, which include liberty, freedom, property, the primacy of the individual over forced conformity.

    And I believe in democracy and trust the will of the people, even when I disagree with it from time to time.

    Why do you hate the people?

    The Piper

  5. 7

    Mevjr54 spews:

    Piper, If you mean what you say (the primacy of the individual over forced conformity) then we can safely assume you will be voting in favor of R-71, right? Otherwise you’d be a hypocrite, right?

  6. 8

    Zotz spews:

    @5: I certainly hope so… But I don’t have a warm feeling at this point. There doesn’t appear to be a lot of activity — except for the bigots.

  7. 9

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    2. X’ad spews:
    Sounds like Rovian politics of 2004

     
    And thanks to obama voters, prop 8 in kalifornia failed.
     
    The majority of kalifornia voted for obama and against gay marriage.

  8. 10

    Piper Scott spews:

    @7…MevJrIQof54…

    I will be voting my conscience in a secret ballot election, something the left hates. Witness the falsely named Employee Free Choice Act where the left seeks to steal the secret ballot from American workers.

    What my conscience is, BTW, is none of you business.

    The Piper

  9. 11

    Steve spews:

    “Why do you hate the people?”

    The ever-preening Piper must be seeking common ground with Goldy or something. Piper is the one hating on the majority of “the people”. He hates the majority who support a public option. He hates the majority who voted for our President. He hates the majority who voted for our Governor. For good measure, the faux Libertarian, he of the unwarranted smugness, hates unions, ferry boats, America, Mom and apple pie. But for some reason he does love him some Glenn Beck and corporate Death Panels representing insurance companies who’s employees flip off and jeer the mothers of dead girls. For Piper it must be a values thing. As in he has none. Well, other than greed fueled by hate.

  10. 12

    Piper Scott spews:

    @11…Steve…

    Since you claim, implicitely, to absolutely follow the will of the people (the election of Obama, for example), will you then pledge to enthusiastically support passage of I-1033 and the rejection of R-71, should the voters so decide?

    As one who claims majority support for the public option – please cite CURRENT polling data to support that contention, and not that four-month-old CBS poll that was phony to begin with – will you support cutting taxes over spending on health care, a position supported by 54 percent of Americans?

    How about the 62 percent who oppose a second stimulus package? Will you vigorously oppose a second stimulus package?

    And on the losing-idea public option, how about siding with the 63 percent of Americans who favor making sure they get to keep their insurance over a public option?

    Can’t cite any more since that would toss me into Goldy’s spam filter.

    Why don’t you cite sources for your claims rather than picking them out of thin air with no evidence.

    But isn’t that your life? Living it despite the clear evidence to the contrary?

    Really, this shouldn’t be that difficult…

    The Piper

  11. 13

    Steve spews:

    Piper touts the “will of the people”

    10/8/09 Pew poll:

    Nonetheless, large percentages continue to support many of the essential elements of legislation being considered. Two-thirds (66%) favor mandating that all Americans have health insurance, with the government providing financial help for those unable to afford it. Nearly six-in-ten (59%) favor requiring employers to pay into a government health care fund if they do not provide health insurance coverage to their employees. A similar majority (58%) also favors raising taxes on families with incomes of more than $350,000 as a way to pay for reforms. And 55% say they favor a government health insurance plan to compete with private plans, which is largely unchanged from late July (52%).

    Raising taxes? Public Option? The majority will? What are the odds that this really sucks for Piper.

  12. 14

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    12. Piper Scott spews:
    @11…Steve…

    Since you claim, implicitely, to absolutely follow the will of the people (the election of Obama, for example), will you then pledge to enthusiastically support passage

     
    I guess I could ask steve if he supports the will of the voters of prop 8 in kalifornia.
     
    Considering his use of the “faggot” word as an insult I guess I don’t really need to ask. His “belittling” remark speaks for him.

  13. 15

    Steve spews:

    Haters like Piper and Stamn are counting on a large and rabid wingnut gay-hater turnout on R-71 in an off-year election in order to get their way with I-1033. Win or lose, we can count on Piper and Stamn using the results as an excuse to dial up the hate. After all, it’s what they do.

  14. 16

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    15. Steve spews:
    Haters like Piper and Stamn are counting on a large and rabid wingnut gay-hater

     
    Gay-haters?
     
    As said by the person that wrote-
     
    Steve spewed:
    Here’s a clue, you goatfucking faggot cunt. Our calling you a faggot cunt is not to belittle gays and women. It is to belittle you, you worthless goatfucking faggot cunt piece of shit.
    05/05/2009 AT 8:46 PM
    http://horsesass.org/?p=15786&.....ent-916253

      
    I wonder how many gay-haters use the word “faggot” to belittle someone.
     
    After all, only someone that has a negative opinion of gays would consider “faggot” an insult.

  15. 17

    Steve spews:

    The piece of shit troll hypocrite @14 so loves gays that he utterly ignores the gay-hate spewn by his wingnut friends. Zotz @1 has it nailed. You wingnuts will be out in force because of R-71. Do you need someone to explain it to you?

  16. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    If even the fishwrapper is against it, you know it’s pretty fucking godawful incredibly bad!

  17. 19

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “Washington is a high-tax state”

    Washington is a high-tax state if you’re in a low-income bracket. But the solution to that is distributing the tax burden in a fairer manner, not gutting public services.

  18. 20

    you will be told the truth spews:

    “Unlike you, I love and believe in America and its foundational precepts, which include liberty, freedom, property, the primacy of the individual over forced conformity.”

    Actually, our founding fathers set up a gummint piper. their concept of liberty was that it was best achieved w a gummint based on majority rule and certain powers. they did not adhere to a free floating concept of liberty by which any regulation is per se illegal and they raised militia and forcibly tarred and feathered those who disagreed with them (the loyalists) (they didn’t get much liberty, did they?). And they said liberty can be depreived w due process. Now funny thing it’s liberals who actually believe in this liberty concept finding a privacy and autonomy right like that in R 71 which you are against and like that in gay marriage which you I believe are against …. and like in the right to an abortion. All that is part of liberty.

    freedom — ditto.

    property — um, can be taxed via majority rule and regulated via majority rule, tough shit.

    “the primacy of the individual over forced conformity” nope you’re wrong they created a gummint and most everyone accepts things like government regulation of families (you can’t marry your daughter — you do not have that freedom dude) (you must feed your kids) ( you must send them to school or educate them) and government defense powers (you can be drafted, in olden days you were in the militia, no choice, no liberty to not be) and many other essentials of government or outcomes of majority rule.

    so you don’t understand anything, do you?

    And if you are too scaredy pants to say how you will vote on R 71 you just lack any real commitment to liberty because it’s all about liberty to be loving partners with who you will…..it’s no business of yours if some gay lady wants to have another gay lady be her chosen partner dude.

    why do you want to deny them their liberty, and pursuit of happiness?

  19. 21

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    17. Steve spews:
    The piece of shit troll hypocrite @14

     
    Do you remember larry the toe tapper? Remember how he proved himself a hypocrite?
     
    Steve spewed:
    Here’s a clue, you goatfucking faggot cunt. Our calling you a faggot cunt is not to belittle gays and women. It is to belittle you, you worthless goatfucking faggot cunt piece of shit.
    05/05/2009 AT 8:46 PM
    http://horsesass.org/?p=15786&.....ent-916253

      
    Hypocrite.

  20. 22

    Piper Scott spews:

    @20…Coward…

    Puddy is much better at deciphering the foam-at-the-mouth rants of certain of the HA Happy Hooligans than I am, so I’ll leave it to him to ID who you are.

    Suffice…you’re a worm for not being standup about who you are. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

    That you’re ignorant of American political, legal,and social history literally screams from what you wrote.

    You’re someone who subscribes to a point of view that’s relatively new in the culture – one of projecting your pathetic inability to face the realities of life so you have to shriek about how you’re entitled to more. You’re entitled to the fruits of the labors of another because you’re either too stupid or too lazy (or both) to make something of your own life.

    I feel sorry for you the same way I feel sorry for the guys who line up at the Union Gospel Mission for a free meal.

    You take pride in your ignorance and your inability to be anything other than the below-the-sewar cretin your words self-evidently profess.

    You disprove the adage that ignoranbce is bliss.

    The Piper

  21. 24

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    Piper

    So tellme .. if the EFF so loves the US, why did they hold a rally for a man who dresses up in a Stasi uniform?

    Also, why not tell us how much the Black actor was paid for his moving performance at the Beckisevil?

    I am also curious how much moneyt the EFF lost or made on the beck rally? Someone told me what SAFECO costs to rent, seems hard to believe your masters and mistresses made out OK?

    BTW .. what is the stand of the EFF of R71 .. or is the freedom of association NOT in their copy of the US constitution?

  22. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @24 Ultimately, you and I pay for travesties like the Beck Adoration Festival at Safeco. You see, they take the money from us, then use it against us, and they don’t miss it because there’s more where that came from, so cost is no object.

  23. 28

    sarah68 spews:

    @12: The polls you cite were done by Rasmussen Reports, a Republican polling outfit who worked for Bush in 2004. Looks like their main advertiser is the Mitt Romney PAC.

  24. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @29 It may interest you to know that Rasmussen was off by a wider margin than any other pollster in 2000.

    http://stolenthunder.blogspot......ional.html

    And according to Wikipedia, “its issue-based polling … tends to elicit responses that are more conservative than those found on other national surveys.” And, “Rasmussen polling numbers … tend to be an outlier among … other polling organizations.”

  25. 31

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    So, just how big is the decline in reading? Well, unless you believe everyone is running out and buying Kindles, it’s pretty big:

    “The American Forest & Paper Assn. estimates that newsprint production in 2009 will fall by one-third, or almost 1.5 million tons, from the previous year, and magazine print by 1 million tons, or 25%.”

    http://www.businessweek.com/bw.....633920.htm

    Of course, you don’t need to read Business Week to see that a certain segment of the American public never reads anything. The HA troll comments make that painfully obvious.

  26. 32

    Piper Scott spews:

    @24…SJ…

    Since I post comments at HA as a private citizen, your attempt to drag my employer into the argumen is silly. But that’s typical of you.

    The whole gun stunt you tried to pull gave you 15 seconds of notoriety that Dori Monson then shredded by making you look foolish. Trying to recruit someone to carry a gun because they make you look nervous also made you look like a clown. What you ended up doing was promoting the Glenn Beck event and selling more tickets.

    Really, Steve, as a debater you’re not very good because you’re not subtle or clever.

    My employer takes no position on any ballot measure or proposition.

    As an employee of the state of Washington, don’t you owe every citizen and taxpayer an absolute accounting of every minute you spend on the job and every paper clip you waste?

    You are so out of your league when it comes to clever riposte.

    The Piper

  27. 33

    Steve spews:

    “clever reposte”

    Your self-adoration and unwarranted smugness comes across in spades. Thanks for sharing.

  28. 34

    Steve spews:

    “subtle or clever” “as a debater you’re not very good”

    Indeed, Piper, I like how you displayed your own very subtle and clever debate skills @22.

    “foam at the mouth rants”

    “you’re a worm”

    “you’re ignorant”

    “you’re pathetic inability to face the realities of life”

    “you’re either too stupid or too lazy”

    “your ignorance”

    “below the sewar (sic) cretin”

    Yeah, Piper, those rebuttals of yours certainly do reveal the subtle and clever debate skills you possess.

  29. 35

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Wow Roger Rabbit goes all the way back to 2000.

    2004 – Rasmussen

    2006 – Rasmussen

    2008 – Rasmussen

    Good job Feral Dumb Bunny

  30. 36

    Puddybud is shocked SHOCKED spews:

    Piper,

    You mean Steve is a State of WA employee like SJ, Darryl, and headless? You identified an interesting time dilemma during the week.

    The only one who has no job is ylb arschloch and everyone knows why this fool is unemployed.

    Thanks Piper!

  31. 37

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    @32 Piper Scott

    You are either lying or the EFF is behaving like the old Communist Party and planting a fifth column.

    Since I post comments at HA as a private citizen, your attempt to drag my employer into the argumen is silly. But that’s typical of you.

    The EFF ias a partisan, political lobbying organization affiliated with the Republican Party. You job their is to function in PR. Any work you pursue in their area must be part of your job. Read your contract.

    As an employee of the state of Washington, don’t you owe every citizen and taxpayer an absolute accounting of every minute you spend on the job and every paper clip you waste?

    Leaving aside your last statement, abosultuely YES. Moreover, unless I am commenting on the University or my iown area of expertise .. things I am required to do by the terms on MY emplpyment .. then I do not use any State resources.

    The whole gun stunt you tried to pull gave you 15 seconds of notoriety that Dori Monson then shredded by making you look foolish. Trying to recruit someone to carry a gun because they make you look nervous also made you look like a clown. What you ended up doing was promoting the Glenn Beck event and selling more tickets.’

    Gosh ..

    I listened to the tape .. Monsen was yelling ant me and callin all academics pinheafs. You think he won?

    He did suggest I should carry a loaded gun so if anyone shot me, I could shoot back. Tell me Kemo Sabe … does the EFF promote gun fights like on TV? How does carrying a gun protect one from someone who shoots you?

    Did I sell tickets? How come so few folks showed up? How come you won’t answer my questions about whther the EFF made or lost money? Hmmmm?

    My employer takes no position on any ballot measure or proposition.

    Sure! And Fox is a “news” channnel????

    Tell us, BTW, what yout real name is. I don;’t see any Piper Scott on the staff. Isn’t there some3thing more than a little smelly about them paying you to be here incognito?

  32. 38

    Piper Scott spews:

    @36…Puddy…

    I don’t know what Steve, who posts under that name, does, if he does anything. But SJ’s name is also Steve, and that’s who I understood to have written the posts.

    I do, however, owe regular Steve a thank-you for pointing out my spelling mistake. The intellectually honest accept legit criticism, take it to heart, and offer a tip o’ the hat to those who offer it.

    Remind us again why YippeeLilBoy fails or refuses to pull his own weight in the culture…

    The Piper

  33. 39

    Piper Scott spews:

    @37…SJ…

    Did Dori win? Absolutely – you came across very poorly and the callers who followed you were all appalled by what you said. Just because you thought you sounded good adds fuel to the fire – never believe your own press clippings.

    You know nothing about the organization for which I work, so to lend credence to your falsehoods by commenting upon them is a waste of time.

    The Piper

  34. 40

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    The EFF

    Since Comrafe Scott (not his real name) wants to conceal his employment in the communist oparty a Radical Republican Front Group, here are a few excerpts from their site with bried comments .,.

    The Evergreen Freedom Foundation neither solicits nor accepts funds from public sources. All programs and activities are funded by individual donations and grants. Our support comes from thousands of concerned individuals like you and numerous private foundations.

    Hmmm …

    So did SAFECO make money on the Beck affair?

    BTW, are the contributors to this fifth column bucolically listed? I do not that a well known loan sharking fiorm is a prominent presence at the EFF?

    It is intersting to note that the EFF considers cohntributions as contributions to a ministry:

  35. 41

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    SJ News Service

    After an in depth inevestigation of the EFF, we have sicovered that “Piper” is really “Scott St. Clair. he may be reached at this web address.

    Interstingly, he is the only staff member with out a named position. Rather he is described as .. well .. a falck?

    Scott St. Clair is a free-lance writer and activist currently working as an investigative journalist for the Evergreen Freedom Foundation. In previous lives, he has worked as an independent executive search consultant and an organizer/negotiator for the Service Employees International Union.

  36. 42

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    @39

    Piper …

    Gosh Comrade St Clair, don’t you think you can be accurate in citng me? I did not say whether I won, frankly I hnever thought much about that?

    I thought the issue was whther ANYONE who beleived in democracy should advocate carrying weapons to political meetings? Do you advocate thyat? Does the EFF?

    But do tell me, exactly why did Mr, Monsen suggest that I would need a loaded gun to defend myself at the rally for Gauleiter Beck?

    While you are at it, since you do represent the EFF, how about telling us whether the EFF made money that day and whether SAFECO broke even?

  37. 43

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    Did Dori win? Absolutely – you came across very poorly and the callers who followed you were all appalled by what you said. Just because you thought you sounded good adds fuel to the fire – never believe your own press clippings.

    What struck me was that Dori cut off the phone calls. Wonder why?

    Of course calling UW faculty names and bragging about his own job experiences (actually quite limited compared to my own) and demeaning the patriotism of the UW faculty these all resound in to Mr. Monsen’s credit!

    Haqy … iof you think he is so terrific, why not invite him to DL some night? he can come miked with armed goons from your EFF!

  38. 45

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    41. SJ Troll patrol spews:
    SJ News Service
    After an in depth inevestigation of the EFF, we have sicovered that “Piper” is really “Scott St. Clair

     
    Please tell me you’re lying and it didn’t took you “an in depth inevestigation” to figure out his real identity.

  39. 46

    spews:

    SJ Troll, re: Piper Scott

    Piper and I are Facebook friends. And that thumbnail of a guy playing bagpipes is him. I’m pretty sure Scott’s not trying to conceal his secret identity.

    Criticize (mock) the man’s ideas, not the man.

    re: Winning the debate on talk radio

    There is no “winning”. If you don’t control the mic, to play at all is to lose.

  40. 47

    Piper Scott spews:

    @46…JO…

    Steve already knows who I am. In fact, he and I have spoken over the phone a few times. The whole “in depth investigation” thing is another one of his failed attempts at wit.

    From pretty close to day one, my identity has been an open secret. I’ve never sought to hide it, nor have I ever commented under any name other than Piper Scott.

    Ad hominem attacks are commonplace at HA. Without them, the comment threads at HA would be pretty empty.

    In re “winning” a debate, that can be determined by audience response. To refuse to be stand-up about your beliefs is the ultimate loss.

    The Piper

  41. 48

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    @47 Piper

    Well .. are you ready to tell us the truth about your presence here and about yout employer?

    1. Are you paid to be here?
    2. Why is yours the only job NOT given a title mat the EFF website.
    3. Is the EFF a “ministry?” or is it getting some sort of help from another ministry i8n running its web site?
    4. Who are the major contributors to the EFF?
    5. Did the SAFECO Beck Worship Meeting make money for SAFECO or was the meeting subsidized by the City.
    6. Since EFF claims to be opposed to tax payer subsidies why did they choose to have this gathering of only 7000 people at SAFECO nrather than some private venue?

  42. 49

    spews:

    Pfffffft… The pooper has been so discredited in these comment threads it’s sad. For a start just read the Crackpiper Chronicles.

    He’s just a sad true believer in right wing myths whose day of reckoning has been postponed by an infusion of wingnut welfare.

    Max Blumenthal’s new book, Republican Gomorrah, has aptly explained people like the pooper. They are afflicted with a damaged self that was explored in the writings of Eric Hoffer and Erich Fromme, a self that seeks not freedom but escape from freedom – an authoritarian order that demands fealty to a right wing oligarchy.

    These fiends are crumbling at the core! Ensign, Sanford, Vitter, Mike Duvall, Craig, Chip Pickering.. It goes on and on and on!

  43. 50

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    LOnthe EFF

    Now that I am a regular contributor to the EFF, I have a new tax deduction! (01 cent/mo!). A few things anbout this confuse me so, perhaps Mr. St. Chaire can helP?

    Since the EFF is a non profit, tax free foundation how come it featured Republican candidates at the rally?

    Isn’t the ERFF supposed to disclose its ocntributor list?

  44. 51

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    @47 piper

    err exactly what is there “ad hominem” about my comments about you?

    All I have done is ststae the apparent:

    1. you post here under an assumed name.
    2. You are employed full time by a far right organization as one of its PR flacks.

    Nothing I have said about you is either not a matter of fact or ad an “ad hominem” attack on your personality. In fact, if you lok at ALL my posts, I forfend such stupidities.

  45. 52

    correctnotright spews:

    @51 SJ

    Piper is up front about who he is. I don’t agree with his politics – but he is not hiding anything and has put his name out there before.

    I also appreciate how Piper does not tolerate any kind of racism or bigotry (including that of MOT).

    I will defend Piper’s right to post on here – he is who he says he is and he is not one of those “insult and slander” types.

    that said – I still disagree with Piper most of the time.

  46. 53

    SJ Troll patrol spews:

    CnR ..

    I have no trouble with St Claire posting here. And yes, I don’t remember him using the N word or or calling folks f–ckers or such. Seems appropriate for a representative of a tax gree foundation, doncha think?

    Scottie St Claire is a self described agent for a far right organization, Not only that nbhe described his job there as investigative reporting:

    “I’m part of that wing of the new journalism coming out of think tanks. ”

    Moreover, the EFF is an openly partisan organization, a wing of the Republican Party, hiding under our tax code as as if it were an independent foundation. Your taxes and mine support his posting here.

    By the way, PS has also been a paid flack of Glenn Beck’s favorite whipping boy the SEIU.

    Finally, as I remember how Scottie got hired at EFF he was hired BECAUSE of his activity here.

    It seems, then, that

    1. the EFF would be more honest about using its agents to make pronouncements in a public place?

    2. HA posters might want to be aware that oe of our number is being paid to investigate what nis said here.

  47. 55

    spews:

    “As expected, the Seattle Times has endorsed No on I-1033, as will most every other newspaper in the state.”

    That’s all right. Things are back to normal on the front page of the web site today.

  48. 56

    Go Home I-Man spews:

    Tim Eyman is the most despicable person alive; he has perverted the initiative process in Washington state while deceiving his followers that he is “one of the people”.

    The I-Man is nothing more than a charltan; he claims not to be involved in politics, but every referendum has had a negative effect on the lives of Washingtonians. His group of lemmings would gladly jump off the cliff in his name and would also gladly eat a plate full of shit if he asked them to do so.

    It’s time for the citizens of Washington state to give the I-Man a collective middle finger and show him the way away from Washington.