They eat their own

Writing in The Seattle Times, David Postman reports that state Republicans’ newest whipping boy may be fellow Republican, Secretary of State Sam Reed. The anger at Reed extends well beyond the right-wing blogs and conservative talk radio. Even one of his closest advisors wrote: “I am one of those who has no intentions of supporting you in the future.” [Republican Reed faces GOP wrath over recount decisions]

Reed says that he understands that many in his party thought he should use his position to “weigh the scales” on behalf of Dino Rossi, but that it just would not have been proper.

“There are some people who have been dismayed that I wasn’t a Katherine Harris who took the position, ‘I’m a Republican, and by God that comes first.’ “

Ain’t that the truth.

Even his predecessor, Ralph Munro — who earlier floated the idea of a new election but has since seemed to back away — described Reed as fair and honest, pointing out that he had a duty to follow the Constitution and the law. But that hasn’t stopped his fellow Republicans from turning on one of the party’s highest ranking state officials. Given the chance to defend Reed, GOPolitburo Chair Chris Vance could only muster a “No comment.”

Still, Reed does have some support, and not just from Democrats, pleasantly surprised at how nonpartisan he was in executing his office. Clark County Auditor Greg Kimsey pointed out:

“Unfortunately some people cannot separate the conduct of a fair and accurate election process as set forth in law from their disappointment with the outcome.”

Personally, I empathize with Republicans disappointed over the outcome of this election; it must be especially painful to have come so close.

But how R’s react to this disappointment from here on out, will do much to shape public perception of this election, and the players involved. Many hardcore Republicans seem to believe that a strident, combative stance will only strengthen their future political prospects. But even as Rossi’s carefully tailored image as a mild-mannered moderate slowly unravels to reveal the right-wing partisan he has always been, Reed’s street cred with the voting public has become firmly established. During the campaign, Rossi talked a lot about being a different kind of politician, but during the recount, Reed walked the walk.

It is ironic that the one Republican who is sure to come out of this election controversy a winner, is the one the Republican leadership currently loves to hate.

Comments

  1. 1

    jcricket spews:

    Reminds me of the recent writings of Chief Justice Rehnquist who admonished Republicans who continually threaten to impeach any judge that rules a way they don’t like. Apparently Republicans can’t tolerate dissent and don’t understand how the judiciary is supposed to function.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/12.....judges.ap/

    Just another case where Republicans are trying to abuse the system or change the rules when things don’t go their way.

  2. 2

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Don’t stop too suddenly Goldy – your cricketail will bump your behind! Goldy says ‘yes’ – cricket say ‘yes! yes! yes!’

  3. 3

    Josef spews:

    jcricket;

    Good point. I’m a DinoCRAT and I really don’t like the rampant bullying by “conservatives” of the judicial system – and now some Dobson yahoo wants heads to roll if his right-wing justices don’t get in. As far as the SecState, let’s just say I voted Ruderman because I had doubts about his competency then. That has only been fueled now.

  4. 4

    Cheryl the Proud Progressive spews:

    Ha! I’ve only voted for one Republican in my life — Sam Reed. I held my nose to do it, but I hated Ruderman’s childish “I’ll give backthe state car” ads. Plus, Reed, like Ralph Munro before him (wait, maybe that’s two Rs I voted for — I can’t recall for sure.) seemed both competent and fair. And his proven himself with the way he dealt with this hellish election. And again, go ahead and go all the way to the Dark Side. The twilight where you are dwelling now just keeps you isolated.

  5. 5

    zip spews:

    Goldy, “the right-wing partisan he has always been”? Your biggest issue seems to be the state budget and tax structure, where Locke and Rossi were the only two able to work something out last cycle. Doesn’t seem very right wing partisan to me. As for all the whining about Mr. Reed, a valid point is that his responsibility is to call BS on King County’s shenanigans and he has not done so. The fact that Rossi has to wait till the end of this week to (maybe) see the preliminary voter list finalized is what people were hoping Mr. Reed would call BS on. There is no good reason why the county did not finalize the voter list during the recounts. It smells like a partisan setup to many of us.

  6. 6

    Christine G spews:

    Maybe there really is a difference between Republicans and Democrats.

    I was disappointed by Florida 2000, and have been following the minor drama in Ohio with moderate attention.

    But I don’t bear any grudge about the problems that arose in Florida. It is too much energy for me. If Dino won the hand recount, that would have been fine with me. The governor of Washington isn’t that big an office, and the result is somewhat random, no matter how it is resolved.

    I’ve seen some sharp comments from Democrats here, but nothing compared to the vitriol and passion on soundpolitics. Those guys are relentless. It is exhausting to read. Now there’s someone making bumper stickers “I support the troops and their votes” – when there isn’t any evidence that troops were widely disenfranchised, and certainly none because of Democratic misfeasance. It takes a special mindset to be so determined, and so convinced, so far ahead of the evidence.

    Perhaps Republicans are successful because they are so insanely tenacious. My inclination is almost to just give the thing to Dino, because these guys won’t stop whining and yelling. It is so much more important to them than it is to me, and I am a pretty loyal partisan. (In fact, I’m banned at soundpolitics, for giving Shark some well-intentioned advice on the treatment of OCD, which I truly believe he has).

    Republicans seem to understand that memories are short, and that there are no repurcussions to this sort of nasty behavior. When was the last time you remember that someone was punished by the voters for attacking an opponent unfairly a couple years earlier? I can’t recall any. Florida was not an issue in 2004. The impeachment wasn’t an issue in 2000.

    Problem is, I really can’t bring myself to want to win as badly as they do. It’s just too big and unpleasant a load for me to carry.

  7. 7

    Josef spews:

    Comment by Christine G— 1/3/05 @ 11:35 am

    The impeachment was respectfully a cloud over Al Gore, whom I voted for. Is this the REAL Gregovych/Gregoire?

  8. 8

    Christine G spews:

    Josef – The G isn’t for Gregoire. I don’t have the power to give it to Dino. Just my feeling as a Democrat, that I wouldn’t go through the insane frenzy the Republicans are indulging, or allow myself that degree of anger and suspicion.

  9. 9

    jcricket spews:

    So now that you’ve run out of things to say ASS all you have is that I agree with Goldy? Pathetic.

  10. 10

    Goldy spews:

    Zip… if you read the statute you will see that Reed has no authority to question these results… that he must certify them. You will also see that these results are “unofficial” (the WAC refers to them as “preliminary.”) To ask Reed to withhold certification would have been to ask him to violate statute.

    Now you may find it odd that the SOS is directed to certify unofficial results, but neither one of us (or the Snark) are experts at running elections, so we can only speculate on the reasons. That said, AGAIN, I will reserve judgment on any discrepancies until I see the final returns. If KC fails to adequately reconcile the returns, then there will be lots of explaining to do. But if they do reconcile, I expect that you’ll be shouting “cover up.”

  11. 11

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Comment by jcricket— 1/3/05 @ 11:49 am: -So now that you’ve run out of things to say ASS all you have is that I agree with Goldy? Pathetic.

    Oh pulease! Let’s review: whenever or whatever Goldy posts, all the little libs pop up their heads and break into a rousing rendition of the “Me Too Chorus” or they thought-provokingly and oh-so maturely chant “Nyah, nyah, n’nyay, nyah..we won, we won.”

    I swear, if the pied piper of progressives posted that he had green ham and eggs for breakfast then roasted his dog for lunch the tenor of the posts would remain absolutely the same.

  12. 12

    Janet S spews:

    Why the total lack of interest by the Democrats and the two local papers to figure out the depths of the problems in the King County Election office? There are some large errors currently apparent in the voting data. I assumed these needed to be resolved before certifying, particularly since the ballots in question is many times larger than the margin of victory.

    But, then, I’m just one of those ranting, foaming at the mouth Republicans.

  13. 13

    zip spews:

    Goldy, Whether or not you are correct about the statutes and Reed’s responsibility does not matter. I’m no expert either. BUT because he’s not questioning King County’s discrepancies in the prelim numbers, and more importantly to me he’s not calling BS on their lame explanations about this, Repubs are up in arms. I think the timing of all this smells prety rotten, regardless of how Logan got where he is on it. He and the demos are hoping that by the time Rossi gets the numbers and analyzes them, the passage of time will have fully removed any high ground available to him.

    And Christine G, you make an imprtant point. Many demos and left wing partisans don’t have much positive to say about Gregoire other than she’s a democrat. But many Rossi supporters have a lot riding on not seeing the demos control both houses PLUS the governorship. And they like what he intends to (try to) do.

  14. 14

    Christine G spews:

    Hi Janet –

    I thought that the papers had indicated that the discrepancy in the number of registered voters and votes cast could be a serious issue, if not resolved, and that Reed agreed.

    But these were preliminary numbers, which I understand King County is expected to finalize in the next few days. Why is there foaming at the mouth, and an attitude that the smoking gun has been found, when the numbers are not final?

    Similarly, soundpolitics carried a long discussion of a voter named DeGraff, who was supposedly disenfranchised. Turned out he was listed as De Graff rather than DeGraff. Then the discussion turned to the idea that this DeGraff could have voted twice, because he was listed under his misspelled name. What are the chances of anyone knowing of a duplicate misspelling in the King County database, and being dishonest enough to exploit it? As I said, the board is exhausting.

  15. 15

    Christine G spews:

    Why wouldn’t the Demcratic desire to control all of state government equal the Republican desire to avoid Democratic control of all of state government?

  16. 16

    jcricket spews:

    Reading Goldy’s post and agreeing with his analysis by linking to a similar argument made by another serious-thinking conservative is called critical thinking. When’s the last time you added anything to this board besides vitriol and childish name-calling?

    I swear, if the pied piper of progressives posted that he had green ham and eggs for breakfast then roasted his dog for lunch the tenor of the posts would remain absolutely the same.

    That’s the perfect description of what happens at unSound Politics. No dissent allowed, tons of “dittos” from the wingnut sycophants, without any significant analysis or counter-arguments. Top it all off with Stefan banning people from commenting if they don’t agree with him.

    That’s the complete opposite of this blog as evidenced by Goldy allowing (yes, allowing) people like you and Cynical to keep posting, despite your disagreement with the owner of the blog.

  17. 17

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Actually I admire what Goldy does here – I don’t agree with his point of view, but I admire what he does for the most part. It’s YOU with whom I virulently disagree – poosibly because Goldy is not a hypocrite whereas you…

  18. 18

    Josef spews:

    Comment by Christine G— 1/3/05 @ 12:32 pm

    Agree – there’s no difference, really when you think about it except in policy and mien.

  19. 19

    Goldy spews:

    ProudAss… and apart from the (un)Sound Politics example… where posters with contrarian views are attacked as “trolls”, and if they persist in a way that annoys Stefan, eventually get blocked from posting… how are Cricket’s posts in support of me any different from your kneejerk posts in opposition?

    The fact is, despite all the name calling and invective, occasionally the discussion here does get nuanced and informative.

    And when I’m getting 150 comments a day, quite frankly, I don’t have the time to respond to all of you, so I’m happy to have people like Cricket here who can defend my position so ably.

  20. 20

    Goldy spews:

    Why the total lack of interest by the Democrats and the two local papers to figure out the depths of the problems in the King County Election office?

    The media has mentioned the discrepancy, but has responsibly chosen to delay publishing an analysis of it until the data has been finalized. Trust me, there are journalists pouring over the data now, looking for a juicy story.

  21. 22

    Peter spews:

    The army guy who wanted his ballot counted – what a crises. We are all concerned about fairness. THEN – tthe truth, he did not return ihis ballot at all……quote, “threw it away”

    There is a problem, it can be solved. But even Rossi showcased the I “want mine counted fellow”, who had not returned his ballot.

    Much of the R’s comments have about the same logic and discourse quality.

    Poor Sam he didn’t, “serve the party”…..Any true mainstram R has a great future in this state. It was what Rossi was pretending to be.

  22. 23

    ByTakingOneLookAtTheSickoPhants spews:

    I guess Sam Reed is a RINO that has joined the “moonbat looney left”.

    Sam, welcome to the reality-based community.

  23. 24

    bby spews:

    New hue and cry from – thebotttomofthemudSounding.

    Want residency of six months to register. Register every two years. More ID all over the place. Fewer mail in ballots. Data base controlled by Social Security….no recounts, if it does not pass the first time, too bad. No review of ballots, it works or throw it out.

    They go on and on….of coure the assumption in the minds of the
    classist and elitist R’s is that all voter problems are idiot Dems, rriff-raff-fish, voters who live in Seattle. Disproportinate voter idiocy is like disproportinate voter fraud. High end logic and intellect.

    So funny – like really funny and bad Sat Night live stuff.

    And remeber we can’t spell, use to much profanity and sexual content – and have no money.

  24. 25

    bby spews:

    Remember the gala and swearing in of Gregoire is the 12th of Jan. Party tickets are 75.00 – five bands, free food, take over the Capitol and Temple of Justice. Suggest dress to the nines.

    John Dean? No Clintons, who knows who else. Wine, hard stuff by flask, and medical marijuana only.

  25. 26

    Richard Pope spews:

    Comment by bby— 1/3/05 @ 2:28 pm

    You don’t get your $75.00 back for the inaugural ball if the legislature refuses the certify the questionable election returns, or a federal judge issues a temporary restraining order against having an inauguration of the Governor. But I am sure they will go ahead with the party (which is sponsored by a private Thurston County civic group), since there are other statewide officials who were legitimately elected, as well as the legislature and supreme court justices.

    Looks like the number of voterless ballots is now over 8,400 in the five largest counties — King, Pierce, Snohomish, Kitsap and Clark. All of these counties have Democrat auditors (in King, an appointed Democrat election chief). Go figure …

  26. 27

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Josef—
    Did you do your homework today about the President of the Washington State Association of County Auditors, Corky Mattingly, trying to “circle the wagons” with a letter in support of Dean Logan??
    Your Skagit Couty Auditor, Norma Brummett, was one of 5 who spoke up against it. She should be commended Josef.
    FYI–Corky Mattingly, Yakima Co.Auditor. Fairly new at this job. Active in Maria Cantwell’s campaign. Democrat.

    Apparently the letter may have died a slow death. Mattingly started the idea of this ridiculous support letter with an e-mail to all County Auditors on 12/20/04 @ 2:18PM stating:
    “I have been requested to send a letter in support of Dean to the Seattle PI and Seattle Times. Thanks to Bob Terwilliger we have composed this letter. I would like to get buy off from you so that I can send this letter as President of WSACA.”
    1) Mattingly never states WHO requested this support letter. Was it the Gregoire camp? Ron Sim? Paul Berendt? WHO?????
    2) It’s a 2 page letter. The final paragraph reads:
    “The public can have faith in the fact that the King County recount process in the Governor’s race is in good hands and is being carried out according to the laws & procedures of the State of Washington. I highly respect Dean Logan and know that there is no finer elections official in the State of Washington than Dean Logan.”

    Now how in hell could the Yakima County Auditor know whether Dean Logan followed the loaws or not???????? Did she do an independent review of what Logan did in KingCo??? NOOOOOOOOOOO!!
    “Circle the wagons” politics at it’s worst!!!
    Josef–get ALL the correspondence. It’s priceless!!!!

  27. 28

    bby spews:

    FLASH – note new EXTRA GIANT bad reporting conspiracy. Ballot count problems at this stage of reporting — god knows what stats…. Includes more counties, Pierce, King Snohomish and Clark – all have mysterious non reconciled totals.

    Mystery or just not finished data …. These people, R’s, are nuts. The trend they see is actually that the problems the bigger counties are all having is standard — with all the work of the three phase election, and getting all the data updated.

    Rather – that confirms probable non problems in King-it seems to say standard practices in all these counties is underway and taking some extra time.

    Of course, all very suspicious to the paranoid — and when it all gets reconciled by standard voting processing, they will still be paranoid. Mental delusions.

    To the SomethingStuck DeepInYour ASSPerson – go to the emergency room — you are sounding so silly and stupid. Please don’t tell me you live in my old Bellevue neighborhood.

  28. 29

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    And remeber we can’t spell, use to much profanity and sexual content – and have no money.

    Comment by bby— 1/3/05 @ 2:19 pm

    Well that certainly speaks for itself! Not only are you spelling challenged, you seemed to have missed a grammar lesson or 2 as well. Good luck in this world – with that distinct lack of basic skills you’ll need all you can get.

  29. 30

    jcricket spews:

    Josef – I’d suggest you be careful to independently verify anything Cynical says. So far he’s the only one in this election contest proven to be a liar, part of a crime or a cover-up (“I saw Larry Phillips two signatures”).

  30. 31

    Cheryl the Proud Progressive spews:

    oh, wait. Are you saying that, gasp, Rossi counties actually might have the same type of “discrepancy” that King County did?!?!? So maybe Chris should have won by 137 votes instead of 129. That’s it! I want a do-over! (For the Rs out there, this is known as sarcasm.)

  31. 32

    Erik spews:

    FLASH – note new EXTRA GIANT bad reporting conspiracy. Ballot count problems at this stage of reporting – god knows what stats…. Includes more counties, Pierce, King Snohomish and Clark – all have mysterious non reconciled totals

    Yes, big surprise. Let’s prepare for the next round of conspiracy theories. After Pierce, King, Snohomish and Clark reconcile their ballots, the next outcry will be “how could they?” “that’s impossible.” “That just shows how deep the conspiracy goes.”

    The fact that the counties are doing some clean up work after the two re-counts is a non news event and is an attempt to set up a straw man conspiracy when the final work is done.

  32. 33

    bby spews:

    Josef- Dobson yahoo —– get up to speed. This fellow is THE most powerful Christian Right actist in America. Focus on the Familly is a giant enterprise, hundreds of millins in revenue and thousand on the payroll

    Feeling his oats telling Bush what to do, and the US Senate.

    Google Focus on the Family – scary oranization dedicated to theocracy

  33. 34

    Josef IS A Dinocrat spews:

    Comment by bby— 1/3/05 @ 3:43 pm

    I didn’t even need to Google that. I now remember. I can’t believe the arrogance of these people – Dobson, Bennett, Armey, you get the picture.

  34. 36

    bby spews:

    To – SomethingStuckDeepInTheris ASS – You are concerned about my sucess in life, I was a millionaire at 26 due to my own enterprise. Get a life. And a soul would help for starters.

  35. 37

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Josef–
    jcricket is the ultimate Dem Spinmeister.
    Will try to discredit anyone who asks a tough question by calling them a “liar, part of a crime or cover-up”. Get the information josef. jcricket is busy dreaming up some BS response.

  36. 38

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    SomethingStuckDeepInTheris ASS … And a soul would help for starters. -Comment by bby— 1/3/05 @ 3:54 pm

    Shall I attempt to model mine after the squeaky clean one you purport to have?

  37. 39

    Josef spews:

    Oh and here’s the revote petition (PLEASE sign – Gregoire needs a mandate, Rossi needs an election and Goldy needs the traffic resulting from a Coalition win): http://revotewa.com/

  38. 40

    jcricket spews:

    Nice misdirection Cynical. You know that you are the only one here who repeatedly posted claims about viewing the “signatures” that we now know(thanks to the detective work of Goldy and Jim King) were either completely fabrications, or you obtained your information illegaly (hence making it a crime).

    You stuck your neck out on that one again and again, so I’m just here making sure you everyone else here remembers your lies.

  39. 41

    Jimmynap spews:

    Dobson = Reconstructionist = Hardshell = Republican = Always right = Even when wrong = Because God is on our side = Veiled Misogyny = Fundementalism… it all leads back to one place and the R’s have it. Normal “red staters” don’t even understand what is at stake. Scary stuff folks!!

  40. 43

    tom spews:

    I’m glad we can all get along.

    Remember, the law is the law.

    Change the law in the future — don’t reinvent the law but allowing some but not all recounts just because you don’t like the result of some of them.

    I spoke with an incredibly loyal R and an incredibly loyal D today — both admitted to me, in person, that it’s not possible to know who got more votes.

    But they both agreed that it’s possible to follow the law.

    They were both mature enought to admit all the wrangling about voting errors, etc. were looking at the same facts in a way that helps their candidate — and they acknowledged voting problems but agreed that such problems always existed and exist all throughout the state…not just in the area where Gregoire leads after the hand recount.

    They agreed it was selective efforts to highlight the differences – before the hand recount to favor Chris and after the hand recount to favor Dino.

    Both agreed the law needs to be rewritten to remove all recounts when the result is within the margin of error and do a runoff. However, both admit that the current law does not work that way and the courts really shouldn’t become activist in a way to undermine the existing laws under which the elections were run.

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all the folks here and on horses*** would be as mature as these folks?

    But, I’m too cynical to believe that would ever happen….

    Because the partisans, on both sides, want their guy/gal in….at whatever cost and using whatever technique. Reminds me of all those criminals getting off because one set of lawyers is better than the other….

  41. 44

    ByTakingOneLookAtTheSickoPHANTS spews:

    torn:

    Thanks for that. A breath of sanity in this loony bin of partisans, present company included.

  42. 45

    Cheryl the Proud Progressive spews:

    Tom: Amen! I’ve said all along that this was, is and always will be for all intents and purposes a tossup. But we have election laws for a reason. You can’t change the rules retroactively on something like an election. So, would I support a law that calls for a runoff in FUTURE elections that are within the margin of error? Probably. I’d have to study the issue further, of course, but my kneejerk is that yes, it’s a good idea. But it’s never a good idea to ignore the election rules that are in place.

    And the name-callling and silliness here is getting really boring. Next.

  43. 46

    Erik spews:

    The opposition writes:

    A Re-Vote Rally will be held at 10:30 A.M. next Tuesday (January 11) at the State Capitol in Olympia.

    AND WEAR ORANGE!!!!!! KIND OF LIKE THE LIGHT EXPOSES THE DARKNESS – WE WANT THE ORANGE TO BE SO BRIGHT THEY CAN’T HIDE FROM IT – WE WILL NOT BE HIDDEN UNDER A BUSHEL – NO!!!

    Dear fellow HorseA bloggers : we must meet our adversaries with equivelant force. Do not fail at this critical moment. Bring all of the “Bushels” (oh well) you can find. At the rally, attempt to hide anyone wearing orange with one. It’s their weakspot and they know it.

  44. 47

    E Fudd spews:

    Okay, Goldy, you wascally wabbit- you assuwed me it was safe to come into this bwiar patch (oops, mixed metaphows…)

    Anyway, it looks like this is wapidly descending into a chaos hewe just as bad as elsewhewe in the Matwices… I see no dialog among intelligent people, just a lot of namecalling- a lot of childish namecalling. This blog used to have a pwetty good discouwse, except fow that mastew cwiminal Cynical Motowmouth, now I see vewy, vewy litte wespect for the opposing point-of-view…

    I’ll keep watching, Goldy, but I’m not coming back in until the childwen hewe tuwn back into adults.

  45. 48

    Goldy spews:

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if all the folks here and on horses*** would be as mature as these folks?

    Actually, Tom, the consensus here for weeks has always been that the margin of victory was too far within the margin of error to confidently predict the winner. That was true during the first recount, and remains true after the second.

    However, I disagree with the idea of having a runoff. To win an election, you need 1 more vote than the other guy, period. And any attempt to define some necessary margin will be somewhat arbitrary and confusing. Democracy isn’t perfect.

  46. 49

    bby spews:

    ZIP – You said: It smells like a partisan setup to many of us.

    I started reading his blog and participating about three weeks ago. And I will own my preference for the Democratic party. Long standing and for many reasons. Every facet of this election process has been viewed in the negative as if a single Democrat here would allow, participate or not condemn any fraud committed by anyone.

    Yet the insinuation is there in every message. We say proof, and then the next conspiracy idea appears. We say show us and the invective gets intense. Have never been called so many names in my life, directly and indirectly. Don’t like it., and have started haning it back.

    I have studied every post here. There seems less and less common ground between the two political parties. And few offers to find common ground.

    Posters say there is a problem with the armed services vote as if I had sent someone a plan to thwart that voting. I am a Vet. Last thing I want to see or will tolerate is blocking voting from Armed Service people.

    So we think together and say – move the primary maybe. Get voting by email, and use expedited postage.

    Then Rossi goes on stage and implies that Democrats don’t want the armed services to have votes.

    There is no conspiracy, just a vast ocean of mistrust and foolish
    rhetoric.

    We all agree, repeal the B and O tax – good start. We agree better stuff as far as posible for armed services voters….so lets keep posting on what we can work together to change…The Common Ground Thread.

  47. 50

    E Fudd spews:

    bby- we all agree, repeal the b&o tax? Says who? A lot of the business community prefers the b&o tax to an equivalent corporate income tax- we’d have to have the highest rates in the nation!

    Unless you are saying reduce the tax load this state places on business, you get nowhere talking about eliminating the b&o tax.

  48. 51

    Josef spews:

    Comment by COMRADE Erik— 1/3/05 @ 7:18 pm

    I will, God willing, be there. I am fighting for your right to a clean election.

    Let me tell you a story: Back in 1998 (I know that’s a long time ago) my Democrat father ran for county commissioner. We had recieved unverified reports that the close race included ballots from outside the county commission district marked for our opponent. But the $$$ for the recount didn’t get to us in time.

    See, voter fraud could happen in so-called “red” counties, too. I am going to again refer you to my blog at http://josef-a-k.blogspot.com which is documenting the long-lasting problem, going back to 1998 in a very big “blue” county (note the quote marks – I don’t believe too much in the label, just using ‘em for illustration).

    Oh and Erik: I am also fighting for more than just a revote. I’m fighting for transparent government, reasonable taxation, cleaning out the Olympian bureaucracy, etcetera. That’s why I’ll fight to go down there. This is a protest for democracy and if you can behave, you are invited.

  49. 52

    bby spews:

    Can we say remove the B and O from business gross of 2 mil per year, first step for tax relief……..small business

  50. 53

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Josef–
    Did you do that public records request yet?
    It is very important for you to see for yourself what the Dems are capable of trying to do to protect Dean Logan.
    If Norma gives you copies of ALL correspondence, you will see that Dean Logan responds 2 days AFTER the “support Dean Logan” letter is sent out by Corky Mattingly. Logan only weighed in AFTER some Auditors questioned the test and wisdom of this letter.
    LOGAN’s RESPONSE was sent on Tuesday 12/21/04 @ 10:22AM.
    jcricket–obviously I am making all this up…right?
    In Logan’s e-mail he states:
    “I did not ask that a letter be prepared, but I was not averse to the suggestion. Having viewed the email exchanges, I prefer that the asscoiation not struggle with the issue.”

    I WANT TO KNOW EXACTLY WHO’S IDEA IT WAS FOR THE DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT OF THE WASHINGTON STATE ASSOC. OF COUNTY AUDITORS TO DRAFT THE LETTER IN SUPPORT OF DEAN LOGAN??? Clearly there was an orchestrated effort to “circle the wagons” without independently reviewing and confirming that Dean Logan did an outstanding job!!!
    I thought Auditors were supposed to independently verify and validate BEFORE issuing opinions???
    Yakima County Auditor, Corky Mattingly(D) has lots of ‘splaining to do.

  51. 54

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Logan’s response was 1 day after Mattingly set the wheels in motion…but only after several auditors objected to wording & the wisdom of such a “blind faith” letter of support.

  52. 55

    Jim King spews:

    bby- Interesting, b&o tax- I’ll dive back in, briefly, with two thoughts about this complex issue…

    Back in 1988, I followed Governor Gardner’s tax reform commission around the state for small business. Terry Bergerson, our SPI, was there as President of WEA. It is interesting the agreements many of us in the “lobby” were able to reach, that could have led to far-reaching tax reform- all scuttled because Governor Gardner decided to reach for a tax increase instead of revenue neutral tax reform. A great opportunity was lost, and he got neither a tax increase, nor reform- but revenue grew fast, anyway, as the economy was in recovery mode. He didn’t need a tax increase, natural growth would have done all he wanted…

    Anyway, at a meeting in Puyallup I heard the best argument I have ever heard FOR the b&o tax, and I have never heard a good refutation. A car dealer- a SUCCESSFUL car dealer- pointed out that under the b&o tax, he and his less profitable competitor pay the same tax on the same gross. They are similar sized businesses, drawing similar sized commitments of service from government. They are not individuals (the businesses)- and the owner of the less profitable business draws a good salary. So why shouldn’t the less profitable business also pay its proportionate share of taxes, based on its economic activity? A corporate income tax allows all kinds of games around profits- the b&o tax hits comparably sized businesses in a similar manner. It is a cost of doing business, like paying utilities, rent, etc.

    A second item for consideration- the average small business owner in this state is MUCH more concerned about worker comp and unemployment taxes than he or she is about b&o taxes. They would much rather see those issues addressed. That is why it is such a non-starter when politicians start talking b&o tax- small business sits there and thinks, “you aren’t listening…”

    And we, as a state, could address small businesses’ actual concerns without hitting an already strapped general fund…

  53. 56

    Erik spews:

    Ok. Let’s get at least a little bit back to the issues here.

    The Republicans have one long shot/Hail Mary left : the unreconciled ballots.

    Here’s the basis they hope will carry the day

    Vance has focused on King County, the Democratic stronghold that made Gregoire the victor in the hand recount after Rossi won two previous counts. The county’s list of people who voted in the 2004 election is 3,539 names short of the number of ballots it certified.

    But here’s the problem:

    Rossi-supporting counties have similar shortfalls. Snohomish County has 1,738 fewer voters on its list than certified votes; Pierce County has 1,640; Clark County has 1,018; and Kitsap County has 484.

    On a pro-rata basis, Rossi leaning Pierce County has far higher discrepency rate than Kin County. While Pierce County only has around 300,000 voters, King County has around 850,000 voters.

    If Pierce County had the same population of King, they would have 4647 fewer voters on their lists while Snohomish would have a discrepency of 5202. Thus, the discrepency rate is significantly higher in pro-Rossi counties.

    What is the effect of the numbers not matching?

    Pro Rossi Pierce County explains:

    The discrepancy is “definitely, absolutely normal,” said Pierce County Auditor Pat McCarthy. She said the list of names may not include voters who have moved in the two months since the election and whose names have been “cleaned” from the rolls, and it may not include voters who were previously categorized as “inactive.”

    Thus, with the discrepency being “normal” and in every election in nearly every county and the rate higher in pro-Rossi counties, there is still no basis to show that there is any legal reason to overturn the election. Nor is there any evidence that shows that the discrepency benefitted or hurt either candidate.

    I expect that at the end of the week, the auditors in all of the counties will close the discrepencies somewhat but it will still exist as in every election. However, because there are non-conspiratorial reasons for the discrepencies, there will still be no fraud or other reason sufficient to overturn the election.

  54. 57

    paul daniel spews:

    Erik,

    Wow! Absolutely amazing! Pierce County is cleanig people from their voter rolls who have moved just since the election(two months)? I can’t belive it. King County has people on their voter rolls who have been dead for fifty years! And the amazing thing is some of ‘em voted! cudos to Pierce County!!!

    paul daniel

  55. 58

    Richard Pope spews:

    Comment by Erik— 1/3/05 @ 9:47 pm

    Sorry Erik — the Auditor of Pierce County happens to be a Democrat. So d does the Auditor of Snohomish County, and Kitsap County. And Dean Logan is an appointed Democrat in King County. So you can’t say that the Republicans are somehow responsible for the discrepancies in Pierce, Snohomish and Kitsap Counties.

    There should be absolutely no discrepancies. At the polls, people should not be issued ballots, unless they sign the precinct register book. The election worker should also write all the names of people as they vote on the precinct list. The number of poll ballots should match exactly with the number of signatures in the precinct register and the number of names written on the precinct list.

    When an absentee ballot (or provisional ballot) envelope is verified as being cast by a registered voter, the name of that voter should be written down (or data entried) and given credit for voting. Each worker or team or workers processing absentee ballots should match the number of approved ballot envelopes against the list of registered voters casting them, and have this audited at the end of each shift.

    Failure to do this auditing is inexcusable. Even if no extra ballots have been added to those cast by legal voters, failure to reconcile these total eliminates any reasonable perception that the election was honest. If the number of unexplained ballots exceeds the apparent margin of victory, the election results must be nullified and the election re-run.

  56. 59

    Erik spews:

    I can’t belive it. King County has people on their voter rolls who have been dead for fifty years!

    Believe it. Ha. The ultimate challenge will be for the campaigns to determine the voting preference of the deceased voters. Thus, one can see a re-vote would be useless. :)

    Not to be outdone by KC and the western pro-Rossi counties, some of the eastern counties have had farm animals which have voted. All in all, the net effect is likely an even wash.

  57. 60

    paul daniel spews:

    Erik,

    I think a farm animal counts more than a dead person, don’t you!?

    paul daniel

  58. 61

    jcricket spews:

    Not sure if you’re making this one up Cynical, but your track record isn’t good. You persisted with your lie (or illegal activity) for weeks until people pointed it out. Perhaps someone should point out that posting private email isn’t an acceptable practice either. You’re not a member of the media, so journalistic shield protection won’t apply to you.

    Or, perhaps you don’t have an email. Maybe you are making it up. You seemed quite specific in your previous lies, so we know that you’re good at fabricating details to make your lies sound more plausible. Who knows with you.

  59. 62

    paul daniel spews:

    p.s.

    This is a natural outgrowth of liberal philosophy that animals(i.e. save the whales)and trees(can you hear the trees crying as they cut them down?)are worth more than humans(i.e. why not suck the brains out of those babies, they won’t know what hit ‘em).Why not let the cows and pigs vote. Hell, let the trees vote too!

    paul daniel

  60. 63

    Erik spews:

    If the number of unexplained ballots exceeds the apparent margin of victory, the election results must be nullified and the election re-run.

    Richard, the Pierce County Auditor disagrees with your conclusion. She states:

    The discrepancy is “definitely, absolutely normal,” said Pierce County Auditor Pat McCarthy.

    The other auditors and Sam Reed have not considered the discrepency to be a basis to overturn the election either (or at least to certify the results).

    If you believe that she is in error, please specifically give the RCW, WAC or Washington case that that would support your conclusion that a discrepency in the votes, greater than the margin of victory, is a basis to overturn the election.

    Otherwise, the numbers mean nothing and is the same as stating that the numbers of rejected provisional ballots in KC exceed the margin of victory (which they do) and this means the election results must be overturned.

  61. 64

    bby spews:

    Paul – you are not telling what has been posted on Sound. They had four dead people, and by name matching only with registered voters – they speculated they had illegally voted.

    ONE has been retrieved already as a mistake, and the accurate status of the other three was uncertain.

    An expert on their site urged caution, posted and said exact name matches are common in cities, even very unusual names. Caution – the living registered may be legally voting, but, there are many John Smiths, some alive and some dead, and simple name matches prove nothing.

    You are fanning rumors and unfounded speculations. Tiresome. Same old nut wing stuff.

  62. 65

    paul daniel spews:

    bby,

    I’m not fanning rumors. I’m just having fun!

    p.s.

    I’ll guarentee you there are bunches of dead people still on the KC voting rolls. Do you doubt this? I honestly don’t know how many of them voted but it does seem a little strange to me that Pierce County’s explanation is that they were cleaning up the voting rolls so expeditiously?

  63. 66

    Peter spews:

    Richard – You ramble sir. Tepid and tedious conclusions — If as depicted, five or six counties are having the same problems, then, many administrators and workers in those counties can tell us all the ways this happens. Obviously not rare or exotic or auto indications of fraud.

    Solid, hard working folks, never in their lives accused of any mis deeds or crimes. Respected in their communites, elected to public trust and public office.

    Let’s hear the reasons as this processes moves onward. From the MANY county auditors. And Sec of State, dear Sam, who is a former auditor elected many terms in Thruston County. Expert once again.

    Of course the paranoid Rossi campers will not believe anything rational. They delight in conspiracy and mis trust. Oh, well.

  64. 67

    jcricket spews:

    The reason some think this comment board has degenerated is that the Republicans are increasingly desperate as Gregoire moves closer to inaguration. They know they’ve lost, so now they’re panicked. Every theory they’ve proferred has turned out to be full of holes, yet they keep trotting them out as evidence of a “pattern”. So they’re forced to start spouting conspiracy theories, blame the “liberal media” or misuse statistics based on incomplete evidence. None of their arguments are defensible by normal means (i.e. reasoning) so they are left with ad hominem attacks and shouting.

    But unlike some other people, Goldy refuses to automatically ban people just because they don’t say what he wants them to say. Even when some of them are proven liars and/or criminals.

  65. 68

    paul daniel spews:

    jcricket,

    Now we’re a bunch of “liars and criminals?” And Goldy is the last bastian of true free speech in America? Oh man dude you’re losin’ it! Take some time to read through the last few weeks of this blog “reasonably.” You guys are getting beat up! Your losing the aurgument on your own blog!

    paul daniel

    p.s.

    Goldy is a free speacher! All credit due.

  66. 69

    bby spews:

    Purging dead people might be fairly difficult. They may die in other locations, without obits…..not going to bother with all the problems about this. BUT, that is not the point at all.

    For all I care the can carry 100,000 dead people for 50 years. The issue is only voter fraud – not bloated files of useless data, and voting those names is illegal. Find the proof of massive fraud. Some motive might be nice as well – you know, an established campaign worker setting up the dead voter project.

    And if any body might have voted the dead, take a look at Rossi folks. My friend still thinks they might have stuffed some hundreds of ballots fearing a close election as the Gregoire folks were all cocky due to the polls. That is not my opinion, his.

  67. 70

    Goldy spews:

    I’ll guarentee you there are bunches of dead people still on the KC voting rolls. Do you doubt this? I honestly don’t know how many of them voted

    I defy you to prove that a single dead person voted in this election. The loser runs naked through Gregoire’s inauguration.

  68. 71

    bby spews:

    J C is alluding to one unsavory person. Not you Paul. Goes back weeks.

    I was under the impression Gregoire is Gov elect. There will be no revote unless R’s can prevail in Court. Will take an exceptional case. They don’t have it and the clock is ticking – been weeks now.

  69. 72

    paul daniel spews:

    Goldy,

    Read carefully: “I’ll guarentee you there are bunches of dead people still on the KC rolls… I HONESTLY DON’T KNOW HOW MANY OF THEM VOTED…” Mabye none. But don’t you think they should be cleaned off the voting rolls once and a while. How about if we quit sending them absentey ballots and tempting their children and grandchildren to vote for them?

    paul daniel

    p.s.

    If one dead person is proved to have voted, I’ll have my video camera ready to go at the inaguration. By the way, I’m a pretty good documentary maker. I’ll make one called, “The Horses Ass: Goldy.”

  70. 73

    Bob spews:

    Careful, some real smarty Dem might find the one just for the photo op…..KING 5 would use the footage with the blurr effect…suggest a black mask like Lone Ranger, possible cape

  71. 76

    Richard Pope spews:

    Comment by Goldy— 1/3/05 @ 11:19 pm

    I will agree with you that no dead people voted in this election. One has to be alive to mark a ballot and mail it in, or to go to the polling place in person, sign in, and mark a ballot. The dead people who are recorded as voting in King County obviously did not vote. Someone else obviously must have cast the ballot, pretending to be the dead person.

  72. 77

    Daniel K spews:

    It has been an bit of a struggle to continue a reasoned discussion over at Sound Politics, and a few have now been calling for me to be shunned, but the issue I have is how this investigation into possible fraud is being deliberated, and less with the appropriateness of it. There may be reason to question the outcome of this race, but how it is deal with must be within the law and within the rules that have been set out. Where things disinter grate is when this become partisan. Wanting a clean, fair election is not a partisan concern. Yet, this is so much of a witch hunt for too many people, and while people profess that what they are after is election reform, it is hard not to see hypocrisy in a lot of the comments and not see this as a desperate attempt to overturn the result in Rossi’s favor.

    I’m against a re-vote for two reasons: 1) it sets a very bad precedent for any future close vote, but more importantly, 2) if the system is fraudulent now, the last thing we need is a deja-vu scenario by going through it all over again with nothing likely but a similar outcome.

    Anyway, as much as words have the power to make the blood boil, I hope to be able to continue the conversations I’ve been having at Sound Politics, not because I’m a glutton for punishment, but because it is important that people stay engaged and work to find common ground.

    For all we know we could all be washed away ourselves by a tsunami tomorrow. Perhaps a flood of biblical proportions is what we need to cleanse the political waters. Or perhaps a shared realization that this nation needs serious election reform might get us some part of the way there instead.

  73. 78

    Goldy spews:

    I will agree with you that no dead people voted in this election. One has to be alive to mark a ballot and mail it in, or to go to the polling place in person, sign in, and mark a ballot.

    Damn! I was hoping somebody might take me up on this sucker’s bet before the syllogism was pointed out.

  74. 79

    Goldy spews:

    Daniel… don’t give up. I think after the emotions cool down, we may be able to have a reasonable bipartisan debate over election reform. Right now the Rossi-backers are too busy trying to spin a new election.

    (And please nobody jump on me with accusations of hypocrisy… I’ve always admitted that part of what I do is spin. I’m just not as desperate as the other side)

  75. 80

    zip spews:

    Goldy, Just wanted to put my partisan 2 cents worth in on the value of your site. Discussion gets out of control, mean spirits may awake, partisan spin may overwhelm at times but overall you foster a thoughtful exchange of ideas here. These tend to moderate things and gives us partisan a bit more to think about.

    all demos above: You are missing the point (again). Fraud may be what the high blood pressure crowd expects to find, but probably does not exist in the count. (I still have my doubts about Berendt’s 735 affidavits, though). Whether the screw ups in the voter rolls, calibration of votes cast to voters, etc. passes muster to bring a challenge is not the issue. The issue is that (if) these screw ups do exist they affect the result. And if Vance could do a better job of making the case to the public, the majority would agree that it’s not fair for screw ups to decide this close election. So revote. Hope the margin of victory is big enough to finish this. And then clean up the process so we can all have more confidence that only legal votes are cast and counted in the nect election.

    The only conspiracy that I think may exist is this delay King County has developed providing the “final” voter lists. The passage of time aids Gregoire and they may be exploiting that fact.

    bby: my compliments on your B&O tax idea. A $2 million or even $500,000 floor would help all small business. Now let’s see if Gregoire even once mentions a “progressive” idea like that.

  76. 81

    Jim King spews:

    Zip, et.al.- attention to detail- even a $2 million floor may not mean diddly to many small businesses. The b&o tax is on the gross, and tax rates vary tremendously from type of business to type of business because of the greatly varying typical profit margins- and the favors some industries have secured from the state in the past. If I, as a lobbyist, did $2 million gross, I’d be the richest lobbyist in Washington; but the little corner grocery store doing $2 million gross isn’t hardly staying afloat.

    And Gregoire, like Locke, will little care about the 70% of the economy that is small business- no, the favors go to those big businesses that have no principles and who’s lobbyists could be found singing Gary Locke’s praises in the newspapers this past weekend.

  77. 82

    jcricket spews:

    You guys are getting beat up! Your losing the aurgument on your own blog!

    You’re kidding, right? The best you Republicans have been able to do is repeat the “arguments” that get posted at SoundPolitics. Not a single one of you has provided anything close to a legal basis to contest the election. None of you has proven fraud. Goldy has pointed out that even the supposed “incompetence” theory is a sham.

    Every theory the Republicans have proferred so far has been proven false, been rejected by the courts or shown to be irrelevant. Republicans have lost the election and now the post-election argument. The best you get in the press is “Rossi supporters call for a re-vote”.

    So tell me again how we’re losing? Show me the court case that proves an election contest is going to happen? You can’t.

    We’ll give you a couple more days, and then you can scream all you want, but no one’s going to be listening.

  78. 83

    Goldy spews:

    The issue is that (if) these screw ups do exist they affect the result. And if Vance could do a better job of making the case to the public, the majority would agree that it’s not fair for screw ups to decide this close election. So revote. Hope the margin of victory is big enough to finish this. And then clean up the process so we can all have more confidence that only legal votes are cast and counted in the nect election.

    I believe I have been consistent on this, since before the first count was completed: we have always known that the margin of victory in this election is too far within the margin of error to confidently determine the winner. We have always known that in counting 3 million votes, a number of errors would be introduced.

    The only difference now is that under intense public scrutiny, we now know the nature of some these errors. But there is nothing extraordinary about these errors, other than the fact that the public has now been made aware of them.

    There is no question in my mind that we must take advantage of this pubic controversy to study this election and enact reforms that make future elections more accurate, clean and accessible. But I simply do not buy the call for a new election.

    While close elections like this are rare, they happen. And we simply don’t toss out results because they are close. We accept the fact that Democracy is messy, and elections imperfect, and move on. Accepting the results is not about fairness, it’s about pragmatism. Take a more extreme example, in the event of a tie, the winner is chosen by drawing lots. What is democratic about that?

    And like in a tie, a revote of a close election would not guarantee a decisive victory. It simply makes no sense, and that is why there is absolutely no precedent for a revote to decide a close or tied election. Elections have been set aside in only the rarest of circumstances… only once in WA history, and even then, only in an Adams County commissioners race where there was clear evidence of ballot tampering.

    I assume, when informed partisans like Cynic gleefully say that if there are more than 129 errors the results must be set aside, he understands he is just posting partisan spin. I am not attorney, so my interpretation of the law may be flawed, but I am fairly confident that none of the allegations made thus far are enough to set aside this election. Nor should they be. It would set a terrible, terrible precedent that would create similar contests over every close election, and with no statutory threshold as to when close is too close, would constantly be throwing these decisions to the courts.

    Again… I’m all for exploring reforms that fix some of the problems uncovered, but under the current statutes, and with the current facts, this election should stand.

  79. 84

    Jim King spews:

    Goldy- I must respectfully disagree- there are three areas of at least gross incompetence (if proved- and jcricket, Rossi can’t go into court on a contest, and raise contest issues, until after the Legislature certifies, so cut the “Show us your cards” crap”) that might attract judicial notice:

    1) The permanetly altered ballots- that issue is still being worked, and resolution has not been achieved;
    2) The military disenfranchisement- now quantified in the neighborhood of roughly 1,000 voters who received ballots too late or who’s ballots were received after November 17, but before the final county certifications- possible federal case; and
    3) The currently unreconciled numbers, which are substantially smaller in the other counties than first reported, but remain a huge King County problem.

    None of these issues have been litigated. Each is sufficient to call into doubt the election result. #1 and #3 may be mooted by information presented by the end of the week- but may not be.

    And there is no need to show fraud- gross incompetence will be sufficient…

  80. 85

    Jim King spews:

    Oh, and Goldy- elections have been set aside more than once in Washington’s history…

  81. 86

    DCF spews:

    I didn’t vote for Reed because I was afraid that he would be partisan in his oversight of elections. But, I’ve been proven completely wrong, and Sam will get my vote every time from now on.

  82. 87

    Chuck spews:

    I did vote for Sam because I wanted to see him in his cool car (that had to be the dumbest campaign ad I ever saw…and they kept repeating it!)

  83. 88

    jcricket spews:

    Jim – Since you’ve always been reasonable, I’ll respond in kind.

    #1 – Besides the Republican accusations, I haven’t seen evidence that the ballots were permanently altered. So far, I’ve seen reports that white-out tape was used. Given the Republicans poor track record with accusations about ballot handling procedures, I’m inclined to disbelieve them on this one (note that I only said inclined).

    #2 – I don’t believe this is usable as a reason to set aside an election or even call a contest. The RCW about absentee ballots seems clear on this – http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/inde.....on=section

    (6) Failure to have absentee ballots available and mailed as prescribed in subsection (1) of this section does not by itself provide a basis for an election contest or other legal challenge to the results of a primary, general election, or special election.

    So unless Republicans can prove it was part of some conspiracy to disenfranchise military voters (i.e. as long as the county sent them out on time), it’s not a usable reason.

    #3 – You’re right that this is, in theory, an issue. But Goldy and others have pointed out this hasn’t ever been used before as a reason not to certify the election (or to set it aside). And while the numbers are higher in King County, the fact that the error rate is smaller than other counties would seem to eliminate gross incompetence (unless we’re going to start calling all of the counties incompetent). My inclination, again, is to believe that this is a normal part of our “messy” democracy. Not a wrongful act, neglect of duty or anything else. I can’t see any evidence presented so far that would overturn this election because a law/statute has been violated.

    Even if some significant percentage of the public has doubts about the election, we’ve all seen from the 2000 Presidential contest, people forget about it soon after inaguration, unless there’s litigation that’s won. So, I see that (litigation) as the Republicans only hope.

  84. 90

    Chuck spews:

    #1 – Besides the Republican accusations, I haven’t seen evidence that the ballots were permanently altered. So far, I’ve seen reports that white-out tape was used. Given the Republicans poor track record with accusations about ballot handling procedures, I’m inclined to disbelieve them on this one (note that I only said inclined).>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Going by the stanards you list, Scott Peterson would be walking free today…

  85. 91

    jcricket spews:

    What are you talking about Chuck? In that case the prosection prepared reams of evidence, wiretaps, etc. If anything, you’re the Scott Peterson of this case, with your attempts to throw attention off of the facts, or confuse the “jury” (the public) with speculation and wild-eyed theories.

    All you’ve got so far is an accusation that ballots were permanently marked from people who have a poor track record with the truth (a la Scott Peterson). The people in the know, who have been proven right again and again, have contradicted your accusation.

  86. 92

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Comment by jcricket— 1/4/05 @ 10:53 am: #1 – Besides the Republican accusations, I haven’t seen evidence that the ballots were permanently altered.
    Your hubris aside, it’s not to YOU that proof has to be provided.

  87. 93

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    “A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding” – Sir Isaac Newton

  88. 94

    jcricket spews:

    ASS – You’re only right in the sense that Republicans don’t literally have to provide evidence to me. But let’s be clear – Republicans they haven’t provided credible evidence of any of their accusations to to anyone in the media or the Supreme Court. Unlike the right-wing blogs and talk radio, the courts and media actually require credible, independently verifiable proof (not the rantings of wing-nuts like Chris Vance) before they believe you.

    Since Republicans have repeatedly failed to publicly offer evidence to support their arguments I (and others) stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt. Unlike flipping a coin, each successive Republican failure to support their accusations decreases the likelihood that their next accusation should be believed.

    A major example of this was when they argued the KC ballots were insecure, but they failed to provide any evidence in front of the Supreme Court (to whom the proof definitely has to be provided).

    You (and others like Cynical) offer the patently ridiculous theory that that Republicans are “holding back”, but the truth is that they are playing a PR/spin game – that’s all. People with real evidence rush it out and get everyone on their side. Republicans are more than happy to rush out with the slightest suspicion. They also attempt to manufacture gross incompetence out of preliminary (and probably not even properly used) data. So I have no doubt that if they had hard evidence we would have seen it by now.

    They’re just trying to keep the attention focused on their theories so if they are eventually lucky enough to find anything, people won’t be saying, what election?

    And good job with looking things up on the Internet. I’m really impressed with your ability to quote other famous people. It’s very convincing.

  89. 95

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Since Republicans have repeatedly failed to publicly offer evidence to support their arguments

    ONE MORE TIME CRICKET… they are under NO obligation to provide the PUBLIC with anything and in fact it would be ludicrous to expect them to reveal whatever hand they may or may not have ahead of making any move they may or may not make. You have to have conveniently confused the posting on SoundPolitics with those in official capacity of the WA Republican Party.

    I’m so glad your impressed with quotes, deary – I happen to love them and have quite a collection. I’ve resisted pulling out the ones regarding those who are crass, stupid and easily led.

  90. 96

    jcricket spews:

    You do know that pulling out quotes to “prove an argument” is a type of logical fallacy known as “appeal to authority”. Generally, you’re hoping that quoting someone with more credibility than yourself (even if it has no bearing on the validity of your theory about the current election) will disguise the fact that your argument has no support.

    Republicans have failed, every time there is a deadline (like being in front of the Supreme Court) to provide any evidence. They have none, they just hope you don’t notice that. They’re using sleight of hand to make it appear that they’re more credible than they know they will be in court, because the public has a lower standard when it comes to evidence. That’s all.

  91. 97

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    ONE MORE TIME CRICKET… they are under NO obligation to provide the PUBLIC with anything and in fact it would be ludicrous to expect them to reveal whatever hand they may or may not have ahead of making any move they may or may not make. You have to have conveniently confused the posting on SoundPolitics with those in official capacity of the WA Republican Party.

  92. 98

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    But Goldy, live people can be buried. Administratively. When my granddad died a few years back, Social Security decided my grandmother had died as well. She quit geting her checks, elderly eighties, quite frail.

    Family intervened – told she was listed as dead. We had to prove she was living. After several such conversations with the most idiotic person one can imagine, called Patty Murray. Two days later the field manager from Mose Lake was at her door bowing and scraping- verified she was very alive. Very true story, still told at family gatherings, with booing and hissing of bureaucrats.

    So Goldy, if I find a “dead” voter who is still living – rugged task – spirit of fun – of course – still streaking offer?

    In all fairness, I am sure there is one valid living voter- purged as deceasd, in one of these counties. ON that I would bet big gold.

  93. 99

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Crass rings well with ass -sss siblant sounds……you really hate having your bluff called

  94. 100

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Aww Bob! And here I was going to compliment you on your astute assessment of the dumbest senator in US history!

  95. 102

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Oh golly, gosh, gee whiz! You don’t suppose that says more about the “intelligence” of the folks that voted FOR her than it does ABOUT her does it??
    Nah, that couldn’t be.

  96. 103

    John spews:

    ASS – so dumb she got 50 million in Homeland Security funds for the Port of Seattle from the Bushies by placing a hold on one of their political appointments.

    Gee ASS looks like you just insulted some of the ticket splitters out there who voted for Dino and Patty!

    Hey you Dino supporters who voted for Patty what do you think of the ASS.

  97. 104

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Ouch! Ouch! Whaaaaa! Whaaaaa! Whew! THAT sure did hurt my feelings there, John. (snicker and eye roll)
    However, it does not change the fact that OsamaMama Murray, kissing cousin to twin CommieMommies Hillary and Christine, is STILL the dumbest senator in US history.

  98. 105

    ByTakingOneLookAtTheSickoPHANTS spews:

    ASS – you take the cake for being the dumbest ASS commenter on this board. Congrats.

  99. 106

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Ouch! Ouch! Whaaaaa! Whaaaaa! Whew! THAT sure did hurt my feelings there, sicko. (snicker, snicker, eye roll)