In the Seattle PI this week, AP writer David Pitt shares some sobering statistics:
DES MOINES, Iowa — Blacks in the United States are imprisoned at more than five times the rate of whites, and Hispanics are locked up at nearly double the white rate, according to a study released Wednesday by a criminal justice policy group.
The report by the Sentencing Project, a Washington-based think tank, found that states in the Midwest and Northeast have the greatest black-to-white disparity in incarceration. Iowa had the widest disparity in the nation, imprisoning blacks at more than 13 times the rate of whites.
For years, this disparity has continued to worsen, even as the numbers of people we send to prison in this country reach record levels. A public official from Iowa demonstrates the typical blind spot for the why this is happening:
Paul Stageberg, administrator of the Iowa Division of Criminal and Juvenile Justice Planning, said the results are not surprising, but the causes are subject to interpretation.
He said the state’s disproportionately high black arrest rates are likely linked to high poverty rates among blacks and lower educational achievement.
He’s completely wrong. The disparity does not result from any characteristic of the black community itself. It results from the way drug laws are enforced. I know I sometimes sound like a broken record on this front, but this problem is both well-known among those who study this and widely ignored by everyone else. And it’s long past due that we focus on the real reasons why our prisons are bursting at the seams and dispropotionately filled with minorities.
The chart at his link is from arrest data from 1996. It shows the number of individuals per 100,000 sent to prison for drug offenses – broken down by race. It’s important to recognize that surveys have repeatedly shown that there’s no difference in drug usage rates between different races. The difference lies in whose usage is targeted by the police and whose usage is ignored.
In the years since, things have actually gotten slightly better, but the disparity is still alarming. A report from Human Rights Watch in 2003 notes:
African-Americans are arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned for drug offenses at far higher rates than whites. This racial disparity bears little relationship to racial differences in drug offending. For example, although the proportion of all drug users who are black is generally in the range of 13 to 15 percent, blacks constitute 36 percent of arrests for drug possession. Blacks constitute 63 percent of all drug offenders admitted to state prisons. In at least fifteen states, black men were sent to prison on drug charges at rates ranging from twenty to fifty-seven times those of white men.
[emphasis mine]
The disparities we see today do go beyond just drug offenses. Violent gang activity also leads towards a higher number of minorities going to prison. But what’s rarely ever made clear whenever these reports surface in the media is how our eagerness to put young black people in jail for drugs also leads to that outcome. Teenagers and young adults in black communities, who are doing things that most white teenagers get away with, are sent away to prison even if they have no prior record of violence. But instead of being “reformed” behind bars, they go in the opposite direction, making gang connections, becoming bitter at the lost opportunity they have, and returning to the world much more likely to commit a violent crime. Our drug laws have served to create a criminal class among African-Americans. We used to believe that stronger enforcement of drug laws in black communities were a benefit to them. Now we clearly understand that their enforcement does little more than just reinforce the stereotypes about the inherently criminality of blacks in our society.
Talking about these issues politically can be extremely difficult. The notion that blacks are more prone to crime and therefore require more strident policing finds acceptance among both liberals and conservatives. The myth that drug prohibition keeps us safe and that criminalizing drug use is necessary continues to eat away at our society in complete silence.
On Thursday night, I joined SeattleJew at an anti-violence vigil at Pratt Park in Seattle, led by Pastor Robert Jeffrey. Just as in other major cities, Seattle’s black community has fallen victim to this modern day incarnation of Jim Crow. At the end of Jeffrey’s passionate sermon, individuals lit candles and got up to speak about those who’ve been lost in the crossfire. Some were wearing T-shirts of the lost loved ones they mourned, while others spoke of brothers and sisters whose lives ended too soon. Not surprisingly, drugs were a common theme among the stories. Those who used drugs in this community were always in fear of being arrested.
As someone for whom illegal drugs were always nearby throughout college and afterwards, in both college towns and wealthy white suburbs, I don’t have stories of friends being killed and no one I personally know of has ever been arrested. Money certainly plays some role in that, but race plays a much bigger one. Our drug laws and the racial bias in their enforcement have created two entirely separate justice systems in this country that divide us in ways much more extreme than any of the ways we divide ourselves. And hopefully the next time grim statistics from our prison system make people scratch their heads and wonder what’s going wrong, the media will have more of a clue as to where to point the finger, rather than simply asking those in our criminal justice system who don’t have the courage to look into their own role.
Much of this is due to the fact that the punishment for possession of crack cocaine is greater than for powder cocaine. Blacks who do cocaine tend to use crack, while whites who use cocaine tend to use the powder form. How about raising the penalty for possession of powder cocaine to equal the crack cocaine punishment? Sounds like color blind justice to me.
Much of this is due to the fact that the punishment for possession of crack cocaine is greater than for powder cocaine.
That’s only a tiny fraction of the disparity although it’s certainly a factor. Much of the disparity actually comes from the hundreds of thousands of people who are arrested every year for simple marijuana possession.
How about raising the penalty for possession of powder cocaine to equal the crack cocaine punishment? Sounds like color blind justice to me.
I’ve said it many times before, if drug laws were enforced against whites the same way they’re enforced against blacks, the drug war would end tomorrow.
Lee
I am very curious about the MJ issue. Do you know of numbers that show a higher rate of arrests for MJ in AA users than Euroes or Asians?
I was also struck by the strong ties cited by Dr. Jeffries between drugs and violence. I am not sure he would agree with your thesis that removing the criminalization (if that is what you mean) would be a good thing.
That is one reason the MJ data would be very interesting.
Cheer up Lee – the percentage of old Publican white guys in prison is about to go WAAAY up.
@3
You can see the data here:
http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=5328
The arrest rate for blacks for marijuana is 2.27 times the rate for whites. Now that’s just the arrest rate. Due to how prosecutors decide to charge people, the disparity in who actually goes to prison is definitely wider, although I’m not able to locate the numbers on that. I’ll see if I can find it. Although the report does note that the disparity is greater in direct relation to the severity of the expected punishment. Not a surprise.
I was also struck by the strong ties cited by Dr. Jeffries between drugs and violence. I am not sure he would agree with your thesis that removing the criminalization (if that is what you mean) would be a good thing.
He may or may not. I’m very glad you introduced me to him, and I really hope he’s able to make it to DL one of these weeks. Many people (especially religious leaders) are very averse to the idea that legalization would be beneficial. They tend to see laws as being a useful tool for enforcing the lessons of morality they hold dear and fear what would happen if those laws were removed. From an empirical standpoint, we know this to be a false belief (alcohol prohibition was always most strongly supported by the devout), but that’s often hard to convince the faithful.
Well, that doesn’t leave much room for child molesters.
Well said Lee. Sometimes I think it’s funny how conservatives find so many “objective” reasons to tell us why blacks and latinos are inferior.
I do take minor issue:
I may not be well enough steeped in the literature, but I know exactly ZERO liberals who believe that “blacks are more prone to crime.” “Require more strident policing?” An unfounded assumption leads to a ridiculous conclusion? Sounds solely conservative to me.
Maybe so, maybe so. Drug prohibition itself (like capital P Prohibition) is not questioned enough, certainly. Incarceration in lieu of treatment or job oportunity is also the unfortunate first choice. Perhaps the new generation of treatments coming up, which will eliminate the addictive and pleasurable qualities of the drugs, will help.
@7
I may not be well enough steeped in the literature, but I know exactly ZERO liberals who believe that “blacks are more prone to crime.” “Require more strident policing?” An unfounded assumption leads to a ridiculous conclusion? Sounds solely conservative to me.
I certainly know some who do (not naming names right now). :)
Willie Brown, the former mayor of San Francisco, was once asked about this by an interviewer who believed that his city was too liberal to think that blacks are more prone to crime. He didn’t quite agree. But I also don’t think you necessarily have to be a racist to believe it.
It’s definitely a tough subject, and I really appreciate having this forum to throw around our thoughts on this with very thoughtful people like yourself. I tend to want to challenge people to look at their own prejudices sometimes as I’ve looked at my own. For years, I would often look at a neighborhood that was predominantly black and assume that it was a high crime area. Having grown up in two cities with high crime rates in their black communities (Philly and Detroit), I was somewhat trained to do this, even having grown up in a liberal family. But today I’m starting to understand the reality of where that crime comes from, and also recognize that the notions that there’s a lot of anti-white animosity in the black community is also overblown. These are prejudices that are very pervasive in our society, but are rarely talked about publicly.
I know you guys hate bush, but ya gotta admit, he one tough MO FO.
He went for a bike ride this afternoon. A BIKE RIDE. He had colon surgery in the morning and went for A BIKE RIDE the same afternoon.
Dunno bout you guys, but if I had a scope shoved up there so the docs could have a look, a bike seat sas wouldn’t be the next thing I’d wanna see.
I still think Cheney should have pardoned scooter during the two hours he was president.
And fired a few more fed attorneys.
The howling wooda been fucking hilarious…
Just wondering…
You nose in the air gullible idiots who spent too much on a Prius…
Do you think you’re doing “God’s Work”?
Oh yeah… before I forget….
Bill Clinton was impeached and disbarred because he lied to grand jury in a failed attempt to conceal a pattern of predatory behavior in connection with a felony assault case that he settled for $800,000.
Can you imagine being too fucking dishonest to be a lawyer?
The drug war wont end until private prisons and sub-contracting end. As long as the likes of Haliburton can make a buck (or many millions of them) the politically and economically dispossessed will be imprisoned for profit.
And with that I’m off to read the new Harry Potter.
I have been told that the statistics on crime are surprisingly equal .. at least on an economic basis. In other words, crime rates relate better to econiomic needs than to anything else.
Thus creates a vicious circle. If you target high crime areas, for no improper reason, you target African areas and may do more harm than good.
Even worse, suppose you are a Seattle cop patroling Broadmoor. You see am African fellow walking down the street carrying a TV set. What do you do? There is a real catch 22 here. If its is true that the probability of an African in B’moor being a theif is likely higher than the probability that a swede would be a theif. This is true even is there is no statical connection other than economic and, of course, the tiny number of African types infigenousd to the wilds of Broadmore.
Once again MTR, the traitor, coward and baby-raper shows us why the Publicans loooooose. Here’s a fool comparing President Clinton with the AWOL coward George Bush. Not realizing that any attempt to compare the two makes GW Bush as bad as Clinton. So the coward MTR is saying Bush is no better than Clinton. And he’s too fucking stupid to realize he’s making a point for our side. Keep it up MTR and I’m glad you are on their side. I really am.
Speaking of prison – remember when that Publican moral majority, bible-thumpin fool Jim Bakker? He did time for being a typical, lying, hypocrite, piece of shit extreme right wing asshole. His cunt of a wife died today. HOOORAY! One less bible-thumpin, right wing piece of shit on this world.
Per the FBI UCR (on which NORML contructs its analysis), blacks account for 23.5% of all arrests in metropolitan counties (2005).
The arrest rate for blacks on all crime categories combined (same basis)? 24.7%
Hardly a case for disparate drug arrests as the “non mystery” driver in disproportionate black incarceration rates.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_55.html
RES – What fucking comparison?
I’m just saying bubba is too fucking dishonest to even be a lawyer.
How fucking low can you go?
How is it relevant MTR? Who’s in office NOW? Are you trying to deflect from the civil war in Iraq, the constant din of criminal activity coming from the Bush regime, our loss of esteem in the world since Bush took over, the nightmare that was Katrina, the fact that 9.11 happened on Bush’s watch, the arrest and conviction of Bush family members or just your own lack of intelligence?
By the way, in case anyone is keeping score, Baby Bush bankrupted three – count em three – companies that his daddy gave him. No wonder he’s in the process of bankrupting America.
Great post. I grew up in an environment where drugs were everywhere. Most everyone I knew used them, at some point or another, and many also sold them. But, being white and middle class, the people involved in this environment mostly could inhale with impunity. I don’t know anyone ever busted for a drug offense. I do remember Pierce County Sheriff’s deputies coming to a college party where the air was so thick with cannabis smoke that taking a breath was perilous. Also, the empty kegs and underage drinkers should have caused law enforcement some concern. Guess what? No one got busted. They just said that everyone needed to go home. It crossed my mind then, and many times since, what a felony or even a misdemeanor bust would have done to any of us. It starts someone down the path, and that path ain’t pretty. Had we been black, I suspect we’d have been headed down that path.
So, let me see if I understand this, if a black youth breaks the law and is convicted and is sent to jail that is wrong? If a white youth breaks the law, and is convicted and is sent to jail, that is right? What your numbers don’t show (And I am betting for a reason) is how many of those black youths are on their 2nd and 3rd offenses before being sent to prison. The disparity isn’t how the drug laws are enforced. The disparity is the rate of minorities that are involved in illicit behavior, as a result of their environment. The fix? It isn’t changing or legalizing dope. It is changing everyone’s mind (Yes, that includes you holier than thou libs as much as it does the neo-con right) about how to deal with the impoverished in this nation. The solution isn’t “Affordable” housing. It isn’t the continuation of welfare as it has become. Plainly put, it is education. It is also a dose of reality. Not everyone was meant to be a Wall street power broker, or rapper, or fireman or policeman. Some people are meant to be plumbers, and electricians, and nurses. There are so many programs and companies out there, to help hardworking employees. Maybe you have to move our of Seattle. Maybe you have to work 10 hour days on salary. Maybe it involves an industry that isn’t glamorous, or it involves working your way to the top. But hard work is generally rewarded. And until the drug laws are changed, it also involves following the laws that society (Even though you may believe that it isn’t “YOUR” society) have deemed necessary. So if you smoke dope, and get caught, you do the time. If you don’t, then guess what, you don’t do the time.
@17
Hey Ron,
Your comment doesn’t make any sense. I think you’ve left out something.
@14
I have been told that the statistics on crime are surprisingly equal .. at least on an economic basis. In other words, crime rates relate better to econiomic needs than to anything else.
That’s possibly true of who commits the crime (of drug possession), but it’s absolutely not true that the numbers of who actually get arrested is based upon economics. It’s based upon race.
@22
It sounds like we grew up in the same crowd. I know one person that got busted.
Lame effort, Lee. The argument in your post flies in the face of your own evidence.
Smithereens.
@23
So, let me see if I understand this, if a black youth breaks the law and is convicted and is sent to jail that is wrong? If a white youth breaks the law, and is convicted and is sent to jail, that is right?
No, you don’t understand what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that when you’re talking about the crime of drug possession, a black youth is significantly more likely to be arrested than a white youth.
What your numbers don’t show (And I am betting for a reason) is how many of those black youths are on their 2nd and 3rd offenses before being sent to prison.
Are you going to actually show statistics on this, or you content to just talk out of your ass? Blacks do not get breaks at any point in our justice system. There’s absolutely zero statistical basis for what your saying, and people who actually conduct studies on this would be laughing at loud at the thought.
The disparity isn’t how the drug laws are enforced. The disparity is the rate of minorities that are involved in illicit behavior, as a result of their environment.
Absolutely and completely bullshit. Please click through to the link in my post and please re-read the report from HRW. Every study that has been done on drug use patterns has shown that equal percentages of whites and blacks use illegal drugs. However, the percentage of blacks arrested for that particular crime is enormous compared to the number of whites. I honestly can’t understand why you, and RonK, and others, are so terrified to accept this one very clear and undisputed fact. You’re every bit as ridiculous (actually moreso, I think) than the global warming deniers.
The fix? It isn’t changing or legalizing dope. It is changing everyone’s mind (Yes, that includes you holier than thou libs as much as it does the neo-con right) about how to deal with the impoverished in this nation.
OK, let me explain something rather simple before I get to the rest of this silliness. Anybody who says the fix for something is to “change everyone’s mind” is exhibiting the neocon mindset to a tee.
The solution isn’t “Affordable” housing. It isn’t the continuation of welfare as it has become. Plainly put, it is education. It is also a dose of reality. Not everyone was meant to be a Wall street power broker, or rapper, or fireman or policeman.
What? Usually when you say that, you use professions that very few people are capable of doing. Are you saying that the key to helping the black community is to make it clear to them that they’re probably not capable of being firemen or policemen? Are you an idiot?
Some people are meant to be plumbers, and electricians, and nurses.
Um, I could be wrong, but I don’t there’s much of a difference in pay between fireman and policeman, and plumbers, electricians, and nurses. In fact, I’m pretty darn sure most electricians make more than the average fireman. In fact, according to the salary.com site, an electrician (level III) makes more on average across the U.S. than either a policeman or a fireman.
There are so many programs and companies out there, to help hardworking employees. Maybe you have to move our of Seattle. Maybe you have to work 10 hour days on salary. Maybe it involves an industry that isn’t glamorous, or it involves working your way to the top. But hard work is generally rewarded.
What the hell does this have to do with your original point?
And until the drug laws are changed, it also involves following the laws that society (Even though you may believe that it isn’t “YOUR” society) have deemed necessary. So if you smoke dope, and get caught, you do the time. If you don’t, then guess what, you don’t do the time.
And you still haven’t addressed the point I’m making here, which is that if you’re black, you’re significantly more likely to “get caught”, to the point where most whites don’t really worry about the illegality of the drugs they use, while most blacks are always looking over their shoulder. Sorry, but the excuse of “follow the law” wasn’t right when the law was that black people sit at the back of the bus, and it’s not right today with marijuana prohibition and the selective enforcement of all of our drug laws.
Hmmm…? Whitey ‘burb boys (like ASSIE Voice) talking about minority incarceration rates in IOWA. What a hoot. I bet a careful study of the IOWA City Politics will show the cities are controlled by Moonbat!s, the county governments around the cities are controlled by Moonbat!s too. Just like Pellethead tried to foist Cuyahoga County, Ohio on us until I PROVED IT WAS RUN BY MOONBAT!S.
Where do my peeps live? Mostly in the cities. These cities are mostly in Moonbat! control just like most other cities in the US!
Now I bet whitey has more money, can afford better lawyers above public defenders, and get better plea deals and their records expunged by good behavior. I wonder if my peeps have that accessability to alternative programs.
Governor Chet Culver and Lt. Governor Patty Judge — Democrats
Secretary of State Michael Mauro — Democrat
Attorney General Tom Miller — Democrat
Senate President John P. “Jack” Kibbie of Emmetsburg — Democrat
House Speaker Pat Murphy of Dubuque — Democrat
Des Moines Mayor Frank Coines Democrat
All of the Des Moines City Managers are Democrat
All Iowa City leaders: Dee Vanderhoef, Connie Champion, Regenia Bailey, Amy Correia, Ross Wilburn, Mike O’Donnell, and Bob Elliott are all Moonbat!s
Top 10 donors: 9 of the 10 give most of all to the Moonbat!s
American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees $38,133,049
AT&T Inc $36,992,735
National Assn of Realtors $30,298,348
National Education Assn $27,108,900
American Assn for Justice $27,107,056
Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $25,779,741
Laborers Union $25,018,639
Goldman Sachs $24,902,461
Service Employees International Union $24,675,343
Carpenters & Joiners Union $24,422,870
The Defense Rests!
BTW I know Lee wrote the thread header, but it’s Assie Voice – ‘Burb boy’s blog!
Lee: I expect this sloppy work from Assie Voice. But I guess you walked a mile in his sloppy shoes and you naturally take an article and don’t look at the politics. Since most of Iowa is in Moonbat! control, I guess the Moonbat!s REALLY DON’T LIKE MY PEEPS, HUH?
This took me all of 28.37 minutes to determine the REAL DEAL!
So Lee what GHETTO are you from? Ev’ry body knows where I’m from!
@26
Ron,
Put up or shut up. Either transform your post at #17 into something that actually makes sense, or put your diaper back on and go sit in the corner. I’m sick and fucking tired of your bullshit. This is beneath you. I make a very lengthy argument that clearly explains the facts, and you come back with two lines of statistics that make absolutely no sense and then say my argument is bunk. That’s gross. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Let me try and get you started here with a few suggestions:
1. See if you can find flaws the rationale of HRW as they did their report, or the Sentencing Project, or the 8,000 other studies that have all come to the same conclusion that blacks are arrested for drug offenses at alarmingly higher rates.
2. Try to find some evidence somewhere that demonstrates that drug use rates among African Americans are 20 to 57 times greater than whites, thereby explaining the disparity.
3. Invent some theory of quantum physics that explains why cops tend to be in the vicinity of black people doing drugs in much greater frequency than being in the vicinity of white people doing drugs.
@28
Puddybud, with all due respect, what the fuck are you talking about? Many of the states with heavy disparities in drug arrests ARE run by Democrats. That’s a big part of the point I’m making.
Get some rest.
Lee: You are saying Moonbat!s hate minorities and incarcerate them at a much higher rate than Republican led areas? Are you really writing this on ASSWipes?
The ASSWipers on this blog consider Iowa flyover country. With you posting this article the standard Moonbat!tic attack appears. I am proving no matter where you live:
MOONBAT!s hate minorities and put them in jail faster than you can sneeze three times.
Yeah Proud Leftist who grew up with drugs everywhere and whitey skated? And that place is…?
Lee: You are saying Moonbat!s hate minorities and incarcerate them at a much higher rate than Republican led areas? Are you really writing this on ASSWipes?
Well, Texas had long been in a league of its own with this (and still has way more black people in jail for drug offenses than any other state), but if you notice, the 5 worst disparities are all in blue states. That’s just the truth. But part of the reason is that the red states lock up a lot more white drug users, not because Democrats are more racist.
Sorry, try again next time.
Lee said: But part of the reason is that the red states lock up a lot more white drug users
Then you are making my argument. Red states are more even handed over blue states. They look at crime as crime. Regarding Texas, the cities such as Dallas, Houston and Austin have large black populations and that’s where the arrests come from Lee. And since blue states are run by your kind, they ARE more racist when it comes to drug arrests!
As usual, the ignorant armies clash by night. To those of you who think that blacks do not disproportionately engage in crime– you’re really working overtime to deny reality. And to those of you who think the answer to marijuana possession is jail time, you’re really beyond hope. Do you really want to sentence a kid to criminal socialization camp for holding weed? All that’s going to get you is the further opportunity to complain about black criminality, because what that kid will learn in prison is– how to be a criminal!
Things aren’t black and white, and that applies to logic as well as demographics.
I posted a slide show of the Jeffries rally for those who were not fortunate enough to be there.
I wold like to suggest that there is another way to consider lee’s ideas. Whether he ir giht or wrong about the drug war enhancing crime in the African-Am neighborhood, the problme of exces crime is all to real. The question is what do “we” do about it? How can “we” solve problems like this when the two communties remain so separate?
Consider what these statistics say about the deterrent effect of our crazy drug laws.
African American males are at least twenty times more likely to do hard time behind walls for using narcotics. They are far more likely to be targeted by police, shot at, chased down, beaten, prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and locked up in high security facilities surrounded by violent offenders for long periods of time where they will be routinely subject to physical and sexual assault.
But is the rate of use significantly lower among African American males?
Isn’t it about time we recognized that these crazy laws don’t do a thing to reduce drug use?
So we have social, institutional, and economic disparaties attributable mostly to race, and some here continue to be amazed at the observed results. Simply astounding.
Good job, Lee.
RonK: Assuming “arrest rates” are more or less proportional as between races(data you cite), which seems to be your point, how do you explain the incarceration rate discrepancy?
RonK: Your data shows approx. 25% of arrests for drugs consists of blacks in metropolitan areas. On the whole, blacks constitute approx. 15% of the population in these areas (per census repts.).
How do you explain this?
@36
Regarding Texas, the cities such as Dallas, Houston and Austin have large black populations and that’s where the arrests come from Lee.
That’s not necessarily true. For years, small towns in Texas have been able to receive federal grants for drug law enforcement if they claim not to have the resources to do it themselves. One of the results of this was the Tulia debacle, where a corrupt cop got 10% of a small town’s black population in prison before the ACLU came in and showed that the cop was not only lying, but also stole money from the last place he worked.
And since blue states are run by your kind, they ARE more racist when it comes to drug arrests!
I don’t agree with that, but the reality is also something that most of us in the reality-based world shouldn’t be proud of.
@38
I wold like to suggest that there is another way to consider lee’s ideas. Whether he ir giht or wrong about the drug war enhancing crime in the African-Am neighborhood, the problme of exces crime is all to real. The question is what do “we” do about it?
We end the drug war. We stop making excuses for the fear-mongering and just start by undoing Nixon’s mistake in 1971, where a panel he commissioned recommended that marijuana should be legal, but he decided that putting anti-war protestors in jail was better. Harder drugs should be controlled by pharmacists and only sold to people in less dangerous purities (ex: 10-20% pure meth instead of the 80% pure meth that exists on the black market today). Let addicts get maintenance treatment at medical facilities.
We know how to fix a lot of these problems. What needs to happen is for politicians to have the courage to move in the right direction.
@42
I have absolutely no idea what RonK’s problem is. He’s been vehemently supporting Chief Kerlikowske for the past month and been attacking anyone who even hints that a police officers can make a mistake. He’s been a friend of mine who I’ve always enjoyed talking to, but he’s gone off the deep end here, and I have no explanation for it.
I’m amazed I have to spell this out for an adult literate audience.
Lee’s central thesis is
But the data reveal a black/white disparity in drug arrests that is statistically indistinguishable from the disparity in all other causes of arrest.
This doesn’t give Lee pause. Lee is obsessed with drug policy. No matter what the question, and what the evidence, all roads lead to the same conclusion.
The same obsessive focus gives Lee remarkable powers of perception — even extrasensory perception.
For instance, Lee can tell that Seattle and Chicago are equally examples of police departments run amok with failed accountability systems (never mind that Chicago is 1,200 times dirtier in this regard, per officer per annum, than Seattle).
Lee can determine that George Patterson was physically abused in his videotaped arrest (even though NO qualified reviewer on any side of the controversy ever found anything other than approved procedure in physical control and search of the subject).
Lee can tell that Patterson was beaten while in custody (never mind that Patterson’s after-the-fact “beating” claim – two alleged slaps on the ear – fell apart on further review and testimony by additional percipient witnesses).
Lee can tell that Chief Kerlikowske needs to get acquainted with the African-American community (never mind that he is well-connected with the community, as I’ve run into him at community occasions on his own time, and that he was well-regarded by “the community” in four years as Chief of 40% black Buffalo NY PD).
Lee can tell that Kerlikowske has neglected to study the ways of former chief Norm Stamper (never mind that Kerlikowske was brought in to pick up the pieces after Chief Stamper – a lovely man, who share’s many of Lee’s views on drug policy, but a misfit in the Chief’s office by his own admission).
Lee can tell – without knowing anything about me – that I’m naive as regards police misconduct (never mind my activist history longer that Lee’s tenure on this planet, and my personal experience being beaten by unaccountable police).
And Lee can tell that I can’t care about black people just because I’m not black. (Some of you know better.)
I grow weary of Lee’s race-baiting smears, his race-based presumptions against the character of people who don’t see things his way, and his habit of seizing on every community controversy to ride his hobbyhorse to the rescue.
But maybe that’s just me.
[BTW, local and national racial disparities in arrest and incarceration is a subject of serious interest by serious people – but the instant kerfuffle does not lead us to productive discussion of such.]
But the data reveal a black/white disparity in drug arrests that is statistically indistinguishable from the disparity in all other causes of arrest.
No it doesn’t. The data very clearly shows disparities that result from how drug laws are enforced. What other crime, where the number of people from each race who commit the crime is equal, do 20 to 57 times the number of blacks end up behind bars? If you’re going to present evidence, do so. You provided a page from the FBI’s arrest records, which is meaningless in this discussion since most of the disparity results from local and state police arrests, especially via drug task forces set up through federal grants.
For instance, Lee can tell that Seattle and Chicago are equally examples of police departments run amok with failed accountability systems (never mind that Chicago is 1,200 times dirtier in this regard, per officer per annum, than Seattle).
I have never said anything like this. You’re referring to something that Jonah at The Stranger wrote. What I wrote is that, just because Chicago’s department is worse, that doesn’t mean we can ignore police accountability issues here.
Lee can determine that George Patterson was physically abused in his videotaped arrest (even though NO qualified reviewer on any side of the controversy ever found anything other than approved procedure in physical control and search of the subject).
They used a procedure that is used for when a suspect is trying to swallow drugs. Since they didn’t find any drugs (.3 grams is an extremely tiny amount – a paper clip weighs 1 gram), isn’t it fairly obvious that the length of time they had Patterson in that hold was excessive?
Lee can tell that Patterson was beaten while in custody (never mind that Patterson’s after-the-fact “beating” claim – two alleged slaps on the ear – fell apart on further review and testimony by additional percipient witnesses).
I’ve never said that was absolutely true. And I also don’t blindly believe the police side of this story either. Neither one of us will likely ever know the truth of what happened to George Patterson after he was taken into the precinct. And if you don’t think that police officers (ever here) sometimes abuse suspects, then you really are naive.
Lee can tell that Chief Kerlikowske needs to get acquainted with the African-American community (never mind that he is well-connected with the community, as I’ve run into him at community occasions on his own time, and that he was well-regarded by “the community” in four years as Chief of 40% black Buffalo NY PD).
Sorry, but two major black organizations recently called for him to resign. You have no leg to stand on here.
And Lee can tell that I can’t care about black people just because I’m not black. (Some of you know better.)
I’m not sure what the hell to think. The data I’ve presented in this post is not disputed anywhere by people who study this. Why you react so defensively to it generally only leads to certain conclusions. Prove me wrong.
I grow weary of Lee’s race-baiting smears, his race-based presumptions against the character of people who don’t see things his way, and his habit of seizing on every community controversy to ride his hobbyhorse to the rescue.
Excuse me, but you’re the one who brought the chief’s problems into this discussion, not me. This post is about the nationwide trend of how drug law enforcement results in two very separate justice systems in this country based on race.
[BTW, local and national racial disparities in arrest and incarceration is a subject of serious interest by serious people – but the instant kerfuffle does not lead us to productive discussion of such.]
Then why did, after I posted a serious post on the matter, have you thrown out statistics that make no sense, and gone off on an old non sequitur about the police chief’s accountability problems. If you want to be serious about this topic, BE SERIOUS ABOUT IT.
A couple things…
Drive through Beverly hills and point out the drug dealers or users. We can all agree many people there are both there. Drive through south central and point out the drug dealers/users. Now pretend you’re a fat lazy government employee, ala police, which would be easier to catch?
If blacks aren’t more prone to crime as many have stated, why is the black on black crime rate so much higher than white on white?
Use your real life experience, would you rather live in a predominantly black neighborhood or predominantly white? Ask yourself why.
I leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions from the foregoing exchange.
#38 Seattle Jew – “The question is what do “we” do about it?
“WE” can’t do a thing about it, it’s up to the parents. How can “we” make black kids believe it’s not “white” to get an education when it’s an educated white person doing the preaching? How do “we” teach young black women not to get pregnant until being in a strong marriage? How do “we” teach young black men it’s not cool to engage in violence, not to wear it as a badge of honor to father multiple children with multiple women and not care for them. How do “we” teach young black women respect for life when blacks account for 35% of all abortions. (Makes senator robert byrd proud) “Nappy headed hos” got imus fired, black leaders spoke out while rappers/comedians say things much more vile than that daily without a peep from the black leaders. How would it go over if “we,” educated whites started telling telling rappers to clean up their acts?
“We” meaning white educated liberals embrace policies that keep blacks on the plantation.
The founder of planned parenthood gave lectures to the KKK (Margaret Sanger: An Autobiography, P.366)
Planned parenthood is the new KKK lynching.
http://www.klannedparenthood.c.....tatistics/
Between 1882 and 1968, 3,446 Blacks were lynched in the U.S. That number is surpassed in less than 3 days by abortion.
1,452 African-American children are killed each day by the heinous act of abortion.
http://blackgenocide.org/
Better education, “we” support choice for aborting your black baby but no choice for school. School vouchers would give poor black parents a choice for their living child. Competition always improves the quality of the product, in this case education. Teacher unions donate to democrats to make sure vouchers will never happen, and “we” fall in line since we send our kids to private schools for a real education.
Privatize social security… Black male life expectancy is 65, the same as retirement for social security. Considering the number of un-wed couples, that money the poor black man has been forced to contribute gets turned over to whites and not his common law wife. If social security was privatized, the black male could pass along that money to a child over the age of majority, possibly giving the first member of his family a chance to go to college or to buy a house.
So back to you, what can “WE” do about it?
@48 The real problem with Blacks, white liberals! says:
Gee white man, you presume a lot about who “we” are. First, you presume “we” are white liberals. “I” am neither white nor a liberal. I am a Jew and have sufficiently divers views that few liberals would accept me as a member of the inner tribe.
But who else are “we?” Are African Americans (AA) NOT “we?” How does one make such a definition? There is a purported descendant of Tom Jefferson who posts here. This fella claims to be a descendant of Tom’s via Sally Hemsley. Is Thomas H Jefferson Black xor White?
Maybe “we” is just a matter of self identification? OK by you if I would rather be “Black” than “White?” No? Hmmm.
Maybe you mean the “we” as in not “they.” Thats is you mean “we” know who “they” are? OK .. that is not as bad as it sounds. “We” certainly ought to understand that there is a real AA community.
So, while I tend to think that “I” am a distal part of that “we,” it does seem to me you are partly right. If “we” do our job of being as helpful as possible,the ultimate answer has to come from “they.”
OK … Who is on first?
So I do agree with a few things.
Choice: Parents need control over their schools (or our schools if you are me). Vouchers, however, are a phony solution. “We” .. in your sense .. simply do nto have the $$$ to offer real vouchers. Tuition at a private school today can easily run to $20,000 or more. That is withiout the inflationary effect of a tax subsidy.
That said, “we” could join with “our” brothers and sisters to help createa lot better schools.
Lee’s points about the idea that “they” use drugs no more than “we” do are important too. I, like you am not sure that he is correct, but … unlike the Publicans … Lee and his ilk DO actually present numbers. What of his numbers are correct? Does that effect how “you” would behave?
Finally, I agree with you, as do most AA I know, that “we” need to be responsible for uor own kids. I say “we” to include ALL americans because the issues, as Lee keeps pointing out, are not only AA. Speaking as SeattleJew, I feel it is MY obligation to do whatever I can do to help other Americans succeed. This means, as you say, supporting community efforts. For example, I was really happy when the NAACP finally had the gonads to come out against the gangster rap, hip-hop culture’s use of nigger and ho. “We” should all enthusiastically join this effort and condemn trash talking .. whether that os OReilly or some “Nigger From the Hood.”
I guess “we” is “they”.
@48 asserts: “Privatize social security… Black male life expectancy is 65, the same as retirement for social security. Considering the number of un-wed couples, that money the poor black man has been forced to contribute gets turned over to whites and not his common law wife. If social security was privatized, the black male could pass along that money to a child over the age of majority, possibly giving the first member of his family a chance to go to college or to buy a house.”
This is bunk. It is bunk on so many levels it is hard to know where a reasoned refutation should begin.
“I leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions from the foregoing exchange.” –RonK
A train wreck strikes me as an apt analogy. But do keep trying. The constant CONservative line that racism suddenly ended in this country circa 1964 must be refuted at all levels.
RonK: “But the data reveal a black/white disparity in drug arrests that is statistically indistinguishable from the disparity in all other causes of arrest.”
With the exception of DWI’s, and a couple of other minor categories, pretty much yup, yup, yup. Looks as if there is an overall pattern here, and the drug ‘war’ is but one manifestation.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.or.....38;did=184
You are right, there certainly is a disparity.
@50 – “proud to be an ass,” does the money the black male has paid into the system get returned to any of his adult children? Once you figure that one out I’ll give you another question, just trying to make it easy for an ass to reply.
This essay by Robert Jeffrey addresses the issues that face African Americans differently than NB (non blacks). Here is a snip of text:
In my life I have met very few white people who fit the old stereotype of race haters. Most white people I’ve met have been decent, respectful, and sincere. But my anger towards them is on most occasions without compromise.
What do I want from them?
I want them to do what any decent human being would do when confronted by a tragic situation: I want them to jump in and try to make it better. Instead, they usually respond with defensive expressions of regret, prefaced by abdication of any personal responsibility. Sometimes they blame those who live in the squalor for its existence.
It is their indifference to my things, the horrors of my life, that angers me. For unlike my white brothers and sisters, I am forced to care about the things of their lives. Just to survive, I must care about their fashions, their political processes, the threats to their survival. I must care about the threat of communism, or the threat posed by Iraq. I must care about their industrial pollution of the planet. I must work in their companies and care about their government, their police, their clean streets. I must care about their children on drugs, and about protecting their banks – the ones that won’t give me a loan. I must care about their mass murderers that kill only their kind, while they ignore the murderous effects of drugs and ignorance on my people.