The importance of not being earnest

In a rare fit of frankness, our good friend Stefan over at (un)Sound Politics recently posted the following comment:

The P-I is almost as eager to expose King County corruption as is that blog with the veterinary proctology fetish.

This is an admission that, by comparison, Stefan is “eager to expose King County corruption.” So eager, that it clouds his judgment.

For example, in reporting on the depositions of Dean Logan and Bill Huennekens, Stefan concludes that King County “fraudently [sic] certified” the November election, constituting a “Class C felony.” Of course, Stefan hasn’t actually seen the depositions, but that’s okay, because he got the information directly from a totally reliable, objective source: GOPolitburo Chair Chris Vance. Um… Vance hasn’t actually seen the depositions either (nobody has… the court reporter hasn’t made the transcripts available yet,) but you can be sure his information is rock solid… because it came directly from Rossi’s attorneys. And as we all know, a lawyer representing a client in a legal case is always the best place to go for objective, spin-free, totally reliable information.

Not!

Yes, Stefan is so eager to uncover corruption, that he bases his conclusions on Vance’s spin of Rossi’s attorneys’ selective presentation of Logan’s recollection. And then he has the gall to follow up this exercise in irresponsible journalism by attacking the P-I for not covering these “damaging revelations”…? You know, revelations like….

3) there was inadequate accounting on blank ballots. How many were printed, how many were returned unused; how many ballots were printed “on demand” in the office, or which of the office staff even had the access and ability to print ballots on demand

4) polling place inspectors (who were appointed by the Democrat Party this year) got blank ballots to take home on Friday before the election; the number is known only to the nearest 20. The inspectors were not asked to account for and return any remaining unused ballots after the polls closed. They were simply instructed to destroy them.

Wow… Democrats printed blank ballots on demand, took them home, and never accounted for them! I can see how one might easily conclude that this damaging revelation is evidence of Democratic corruption… but since neither Stefan nor I are experts at election procedures, I decided to ask somebody who is… the always helpful Lawyer X. And as he explains, there’s no revelation here at all.

[The inspectors] get a shrink-wrapped package of sequentially numbered ballots in a quantity estimated to be what they need, rounded up to the next 20. On election day they bring the shrink-wrapped ballot to the polling place where they join the democratic and republican judges and observers. There have been no complaints that anyone showed up with the shrink wrap broken. The election workers are required to write down the ballot stub number they start with and the one they end with, to return all unused ballots to king county and to account for all ballots used or spoiled. There is no news here.

There are records of the purchases of the ballots, which are printed by Diebold and come shrink wrapped. It is correct that the software for the ballot on demand system does not record the number of ballots printed but the ballots are only printed at the counter in the main election office, in response to over the counter absentee ballot requests or at MBOS in order to make a replacement ballot.

I’m still not exactly sure what the “ballot on demand” system is, but I understand that King County is not the only county to use it. So what we’re talking about here are standard procedures which may sound suspicious to people who don’t know what the fuck they are talking about, but which in the end are really unremarkable, um… standard procedures.

Still, if you’re eager to find corruption, even standard procedures look pretty damn suspicious.

As I said in my interview on Up Front with Robert Mak, Stefan started with the conclusion that Democrats stole this election, and he has gone about desperately trying to twist the evidence into supporting his thesis. That’s fine. That’s a lot of what partisan bloggers do. And that’s why he’s perfectly comfortable drawing conclusions from third-hand accounts of depositions on election procedures he knows nothing about.

But real journalists, like those at the P-I, see their job as reporting the facts. And my guess is that they’ll continue to refrain from reporting on the depositions until they actually see them. Even then, it wouldn’t surprise me if the P-I got a few of the facts wrong… but at least it would be an honest effort, as opposed to the kind you get over on (u)SP.

Comments

  1. 1

    JCH spews:

    Shark is right. Dems are voter felons and the court will show they lie and cheat. Let’s work together to make voter fraud a capital offense! [hehe]

  2. 2

    Carl Ballard spews:

    “polling place inspectors (who were appointed by the Democrat Party this year)” Yeah this year and every other year since ’88. It’s based on who won the presidential election in the state.

    But honestly if my experience is typical, they just ask you what party you’re in and then they say, “well we really need Republicans in your area, how about you be a Republican?” So it isn’t like there are no Republicans with access to those magic ballots.

  3. 3

    dj spews:

    Goldy,

    I rarely ever go to uSP precisely because of this kind of bullshit. When I have gone there, the pattern seems to be that Snark posts some off-the-wall theory of why there is something wrong with the election. Then, there are dozens of content-less “go team” type posts, and then somebody (like Richard Pope) finally corrects the misunderstanding, followed by more “go team” posts. It is an exercise in collective delusion.

  4. 4

    Shawn Paulson spews:

    if there were any magic ballots, which there are not.

    For many people it is more important to react than to research and develop a reasoned opinion on a subject. This election is a good example; innuendo is used in place of evidence, and personal opinion pretends to be the Revised Code of Washington.

  5. 5

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy–
    Thanks for no longer avoiding the inevitable.
    You are in DENIAL.
    One of the major problems is poll workers DID NOT account for all the unused ballots as required. Let me repeat…DID NOT.

    Perhaps you think the Rossi attorneys have gone absolutely mad and will totally distort what Logan and Huennekens said under oath…I don’t. It will all come out when the trial begins in less than a month. These attorney know the public will scrutinize every word. Oh, and guess what Goldy….Logan & Huennekens are far from finished both during this contest and subsequent investigations.

    Spinning is becoming so easy for you Goldy…I think you actually believe some of this stuff. Oh, I forgot, every time you are busted for being WRONG, your motis operendii is to claim you were just kidding!!!!

    Are you just kidding now?

    Did Lawyer X hear the depositions Goldy? Yes or No?

  6. 6

    Terry J spews:

    Goldy:

    The larger issue is, was, and remains the integrity of elections in Washington. King County has managed to appear both incompetent and underhanded at the same time. They have mastered the “look and feel”. Mayor Daley mastered the art of actually doing it without appearing to. Did King County? I have no idea, but the available facts are not encouraging and offer little support for the position that they did not. The trial will proceed.

    There is a reason that the Legislature passed an election reform bill this year, and it wasn’t to codify King County’s practices. It was mostly to outlaw King County’s practices.

    The 2004 Governor’s race will be seen in retrospect as a minor pimple on your favorite place. The real issue is the integrity and the believeability of the election process as applied to all those school levy and fire district and other local elections.

    A more prudent course may be to decry King County’s obvious shortcomings and advocate the sanitizing of the election process. As it stands now the Democrats/Liberals/Progressives/Reality-Based folks are becoming the primay support for any and all practices that contribute to or support the possibility of creatively predetermined election outcomes.

    Election victories are nice, but mean little or nothing if the voters don’t believe you won.

    Ridiculing Stephan is gratifying and great fun, but it appears he has done more of the hard and tedious analytical work than any reporter. And his sources have names and positions.

    Take a position. You support Christine Gregoire and King County no matter what the facts show, or you support fair and properly conducted elections no matter what the outcome.

  7. 7

    Erik spews:

    Of course, Stefan hasn’t actually seen the depositions, but that’s okay, because he got the information directly from a totally reliable, objective source: GOPolitburo Chair Chris Vance.

    Too funny. Double hearsay from someone who has no original evidence in the first place. A common rumor would have more substance.

    You support Christine Gregoire and King County no matter what the facts show

    Three levels of rumors are not a fact especially when they are all partison. Oh well.

    Even the deposition testimony itself is not a fact but only one witness in the entire litigation.

    On days like these, I even miss the old speadsheets.

    At least Goldy proved the dead cat connection.

  8. 8

    zip spews:

    Goldy

    “if you’re eager to find corruption, even standard procedures look pretty damn suspicious”

    That is exactly what the Republican attorneys are hired to do. It would seem that they have successfully done this, by questioning these standard procedures. So where’s the problem? This is a lawsuit, guys, get over it. This type of thing happens in every lawsuit. Maybe when this is over you’ll support tort reform if the normal course of events in a lawsuit is going to get you so upset.

    Your sniping at Stefan would seem less like the usual sniping if you told us whether Lawyer X attended the deposition in question. Pretty smooth the way you omitted that fact.

  9. 9

    dj spews:

    Terry J @ 5

    “King County has managed to appear both incompetent and underhanded at the same time.”

    Underhanded???? I admit, they do appear incompetent, but that is largely because of a semi-successful PR compaign by Vance and Rossi. Objectively (i.e. based on very low error rate), it appears that King County made a few very small mistakes that affected a tiny fraction of ballots. All other counties made errors, too. It is just that King County is under the microscope and everything about KC’s handling is being scrutenized. Can the Republicans show that KCs errors and procedures were anything out of the ordinary relative to other counties? I doubt it.

    We have already heard about improper signature verification on provisionals in E. Washington. That that this bothers me particularly, I am sure they processed ballots in good faith, but the point is, mistakes always get made and in an election this close, probably balance out. If all other counties went through all of their provisional and absentee envelopes they would likely find a few unopened ones, too. Naaa. . . the republicans are waging a PR compaign (and with a bit of success, I must say), but most of their BS won’t count for much (if anything) in court.

  10. 10

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    zip–
    Of course Goldy’s imaginary little friend Lawyer X didn’t attend those depositions. So Goldy is refuting what Vance was told by Republican lawyers with “expert testimony” of an imaginary lawyer!!! Hysterical Goldy!!

  11. 11

    ChrisN spews:

    DJ @ 8

    ” it appears that King County made a few very small mistakes that affected a tiny fraction of ballots.”

    What is the Fraction of a 129 vote victory?

    Does certifying an election knowing that it was not accurate a Small Mistake?

    How many Ballots/Votes that didnt have a Voter get counted (in the 600+ number) that logan has admitted, be considered a Small Mistake.

    Audit Trails that don’t exist, that used to exist, and that in other counties exist…. The list goes on and on..

    This was an election any bank would be proud of….

  12. 12

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    dj–
    You don’t get it. This is a 129-vote margin being contested. It is not, I repeat NOT, the Republicans job to seek out every error around the state. The Dems have blown this contest by not immediately seeking such information. Instead they sat back on their fatasses and criticized everything Sharkansky and the Republicans dug up. Then all of a sudden the Dems go HOLY SHIT, they’ve got something. We better get going!! So at the 12 th hour they have done voluminous records requests, far exceeding what the Republicans did. WHY?? Because the R’s have a solid case. If they didn’t, why would the Dems possibly do all these last minute requests????

    dj–you seem to be a real emotional LEFTIST amateur. CAN YOU SEE THE FUCKING NOSE IN FRONT OF YOUR FACE???? I didn’t think so. You will be one of the ignorant LEFTIST WAILERS when the Judge sets this election aside, aren’t you….moaning in ignorant agony.

    The R’s will win because they kept digging. The Dems will lose because they were arrogant, stupid and TOO LATE!!

  13. 13

    Erik spews:

    We have already heard about improper signature verification on provisionals in E. Washington.

    Yep. All of the criticism has been against pro-Gregoire counties. We are going to hear much more soon about the problems in the easterns counties. One problem they had is that some of them did not even try to verify signatures.

    On a percentage basis, KC is going to look pretty good despite all of the all cap posts.

    Depositions

    There is going to be enough spin on the depositions once they come out. Why not wait to see what they say before speculating as to their content. I am going to guess they are not going to be earth shattering.

  14. 14

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Erik–
    Some people already KNOW what was said in those depositions.
    You will find admissions of errors and negligence beyond what the MSM has reported to date in KingCo.

    On May 2nd, the Judge will be ruling on how he will look at these proven errors AND what the Dems will be allowed to bring in at the 12th hour. It is NOT a slam-dunk that all this recent flurry of Dem public records requests and depositions will even be allowed.

    The Dem strategy of attacking the R’s, defending KingCo and doing nothing else until recently may very well backfire. May 2nd will pretty clearly define how this trial will turn out….don’t you think?

  15. 15

    dj spews:

    Chris N @ 12

    What do you mean by “what is the fraction of a 129 vote victory?”

    “Does certifying an election knowing that it was not accurate a Small Mistake?”

    Nope. Every election of this magnitude ever conducted has had such errors. It is quite possible that this Gov. election had the lowest rate of error of any statewide election in Washington’s history because of the manual recount.

    “How many Ballots/Votes that didnt have a Voter get counted (in the 600+ number) that logan has admitted, be considered a Small Mistake.”

    I am not sure what you are refering to by ballots or votes that didn’t have a voter. But, if there were only 600 mistakes out of 875,000 that is a pretty low error rate—and, pretty typical of the error rate found in other elections that have been scrutenized as this one has.

    “Audit Trails that don’t exist, that used to exist, and that in other counties exist….”

    Sound like snark “theories” to me. Here is how it happens. Someone doesn’t like something about the way the records are kept
    and this magically gets turned into “No audit trails.” It does make good PR, though!

  16. 16

    Erik spews:

    May 2nd will pretty clearly define how this trial will turn out….don’t you think?

    It will be an important step. However, whatever party does not feel that the rules of the contest favor them will appeal to the state supreme court.

    Some people already KNOW what was said in those depositions.

    Yes, but we don’t. Not evem lawyer X. Therefore, it is useless to argue and speculate about them. I sure they will be published soon. So will many other witnesses.

    It is NOT a slam-dunk

    I agree. We still don’t even know what standard the judge will use.

  17. 17

    ChrisN spews:

    DJ @ 14

    Margin of Error has no bearing on the fact that Logan KNEW prior to certifiying this election that there were ERRORS (ie Voterless Ballots that were counted)

    Voterless Ballots make a big difference, and 600+ is a large number when the margin of victory was 129.

    Audit Trails exist in all facets of life….. Do you deposit money into your bank account, not keeping track of amounts, and then write checks, also not keeping track of what is spent. If you do, you need an Audit Trail.. Balancing your check book is a Simple Audit Trail.

    Logan took away under his tenor Checks & Balances (Audit Trails), and also didn’t disclose the mistakes his dept. made as in counting provisional ballots before the absentee ballots where counted and credited. (meaning one voter could vote provisional and absentee and the Elections dept wouldnt know the difference and count both, but end up with an extra ballot/vote).

    I hope you don’t work in a profession where accurate numbers are important….But keep the blinders on, it makes for good debate.

  18. 18

    Terry J spews:

    dj @ # 8:

    Name another County that kept “finding” just enough ballots to potentially change the outcome. Didn’t they do that around 9 times, including the re-counts?

    How about counting Provisionals with no verification, Felons, the deceased? Dual registrations in two counties or two states?

    These charges have not been leveled or have been quite modest concerning other Counties. Yes, there are questions about signature verification, but are any of them accussed of accepting hundreds of Provisional ballots with NO verification?

    It ain’t about the Governor’s race. It is about the conduct of elections. And if King County is involved at their present level of competence, I have sreious reservations about their ability to be accurate within 10.000 votes.

  19. 19

    dj spews:

    “This is a 129-vote margin being contested. It is not, I repeat NOT, the Republicans job to seek out every error around the state.”

    Yes it is. By not scrutinizing all counties in the same way, the Repugs will likely fail from the “equal protection” (mis)ruling that was made in Bush v. Gore. Secondly, the Democrats will simply have to show that there were some errors outside of KC, but we don’t know how many. All else being equal, errors will balance out. Given how close this election was, the (say) 500 errors out of 875,000 in KC are most likely offset by 500 errors in a series of counties whose populations add up to 875,000.

    Of course, if they can show that KC had an extraordinarily high error rate, then the case is easier because the Repugs can try to make statistical arguments that show that the election would have gone the other way with some probability. (i.e. they could try arguing something like “the 42% greater error rate in KC compared to other counties had a probability of 0.982 of changing the outcome). The judge just might accept a properly presented argument along these lines. But showing that KC has an extraordinarily high error rate requires knowing what the error rate is for other counties after scrutinizing them to the same degree as KC. Without that information, the Repugs can only say, “the error rate in KC may have changed the election, but we cannot assign a probability to it because we don’t have the correct denominator to compute the probability.” I’ll be happy to expand on this “missing denominator” point, if it is not obvious to you.

    “you seem to be a real emotional LEFTIST amateur.”

    I may be an amateur leftist, although I’ve had this condition for quite awhile. Emotional? Who’s the one abusing the shift key? :)

  20. 20

    spews:

    What is the Fraction of a 129 vote victory?

    Fascinating how Republicans were all over Al Gore to concede on a razor thin margin. Now they’ve got torches ablaze and pitchforks at the ready to usher their boy into court to fight the fight.

    This isn’t about the Governor’s race. This isn’t about the election. This is about the Republicans being pissed off that they lost.

    Sore losers.

  21. 21

    firesidechat spews:

    Agree with you Carla. Seems that the last basically ‘Honest’ Republican President was Eisenhower. The ones that have followed have created their own problems with lying and trying to cover their tracks.

  22. 22

    ChrisN spews:

    DJ asked “Kindly define “voterless ballots” please”

    It is a ballot without a voter that WAS counted.

    DJ also asked “Was Logan supposed to nullify the KC election because there was a 0.0006 error rate?”

    How can you nullify something that wasn’t certified….Cart before the horse DJ….He shouldnt have certified in the first place.

  23. 23

    Alan spews:

    This thread is like a re-run of a 70′s sitcom. There’s nothing to say about the depos because none of us know what they contain. So the troll herd is regurgitating the same slogans they cut-and-paste in every election thread.

    Cynical and Zip — Assume Goldy agreed to keep Lawyer X’s identity secret. If Goldy says the answer to your question is no, the number of lawyers who can be Lawyer X is about 24,000, but if Goldy says yes, that number drops to 3, which comes awfully close to identifying Lawyer X. Draw your own conclusions from Goldy’s silence. Comprende?

    Terry J @ 17

    In King County, misplaced ballots kept turning up during the recounts, and even after the final recount. Sure, it makes the KC election workers look bad. No, it shouldn’t have happened. But let’s not lose sight of something here. KV voted 57% for Gregoire, 40% for Rossi, so who do you think benefitted the most from not counting these ballots? If KC Elections had done their job properly Rossi would have lost all 3 counts, and his PR campaign wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. Truth is, Rossi and the Repubs benefitted enormously from KC’s mistakes.

  24. 24

    Terry J spews:

    dj:

    For someone who supports the idea of minimizing errors of all types in elections, you sure are spending a lot of energy mentioning the outcomes.

    Assume all the known errors and ommissions and FUBARS and change the winner in any given contest to a “Repug”. Still got the same attitudes and dismissals?

    You are arguing that any action which results in Democrats winning is a good action.

    Supporting your candidates and party is fine, but why does it extend to behavior that is questionable at best and fraudulent at worst?

  25. 25

    Alan spews:

    ChrisN @ 22

    “It is a ballot without a voter that WAS counted.”

    Since no ballot can be traced to a specific voter, they’re all “voterless ballots” under your definition, and the law requires them to be.

  26. 26

    Alan spews:

    24

    Where’s the fraud, Terry? Even the GOP isn’t alleging fraud in their lawsuit, because there’s no evidence of fraud. So what fraud are you talking about?

  27. 27

    Alan spews:

    Off topic, but timely topic — I just noticed the Legislature passed the gas tax bill this afternoon. Now goes to Gregoire for signature.

    Here’s something that wasn’t discussed in the transportation thread of a few days ago. Apparently this tax provides only partial funding for the Alaska Way Viaduct, and local funding will be required. This means Seattleites will pay more for Viaduct replacement than non-local taxpayers, which undercuts to some degree the argument that the gas tax is unfair to those living outside of Seattle. The Viaduct has statewide significance because it is part of the transportation network that moves Washington output to ports and markets, and that moves incoming goods to Washington stores. You don’t have to live in Seattle to benefit from the transportation infrastructure here. So it’s fair to ask the rest of the state to HELP pay for it, and that’s what this bill does.

  28. 28

    dj spews:

    ChrisN

    “Margin of Error has no bearing on the fact that Logan KNEW prior to certifiying this election that there were ERRORS”

    What of it? Was Logan supposed to nullify the KC election because there was a 0.0006 error rate? Just think of what that would have done. Bush would have taken Washington; Murray would have been defeated. Do you really think that is the right way to handle it? Or should KC have tried to do everything possible to eliminate the errors? Other suggestions?

    “Voterless Ballots make a big difference, and 600+ is a large number when the margin of victory was 129.”

    Kindly define “voterless ballots” please. 600+ is not a large number when the margin of victory is 129, because the number are largely offset by 600 errors elsewhere. All counties had errors and probably a pretty similar error rate. That is just a fact of elections. Oh. . . and besides that, it is the person with the most votes after the final legally mandated recount that is the winner (even knowing that there are errors).

    “It ain’t about the Governor’s race. It is about the conduct of elections.”

    Well there we can agree, my friend. I wholeheartedly support the idea of minimizing errors of all types in elections.

  29. 29

    ChrisN spews:

    Alan you are really getting petty…. It is a vote cast that cannot be credited to live person as having casting it. (legally registered voter that is)

    Also, isnt it fraud to attest that something is true and accurate, when you know it isn’t……Or is that just passing the buck, or wearing blinders, or maybe wishful thinking….

  30. 30

    Terry J spews:

    Alan @23:

    Your comment makes overwhelming sense. Rossi should not have had any chance to be competitive in the Governor’s election.

    But however much sense your comment makes, King County’s electoral practices have had an unintended consequence. People in Washington don’t entirely trust the electoral process any more, and people outside Washington think we are idiots.

    When people don’t trust the electoral process, they tend not to believe the announced results. This is a much bigger issue than the 2004 Governor’s race.

    The Legislature changed the law this year, but so far there are no consequences for anyone in King County for the violations of the law in 2004. Why expect any different result in 2006?

    Until all branches of government get on the same page and treat elections as a serious matter, many will distrust the announced outcome.

  31. 31

    Terry J spews:

    Alan:

    Fraud. One possibility in a wide range of possibilities. The worst case.

    I have not alleged it was committed, I have posited it as the worst possible outcome.

    One could also argue it is the best possible outcome. Some appear to be doing so.

    I observe that the behavior of King County Elections could generously be characterized as incompetent, but could possibly extend to fraud.

    It is a range of behaviors. The actual results will await the results of the trial. The trial will determine the answer. In the interim, I am comfortable that the range extends from incompetence to fraud, and I take no position on what the trial will find.

  32. 32

    Dewdo spews:

    Rossi won the first two computerized counts and Gregoire won the one. I always felt two out of three wins made you the winner. Who or what is more correct? The computer or the hand counters? Hold an election tomorrow and Gregoire probably wouldn’t get enough votes to wipe her a– on.

  33. 33

    VCRW spews:

    “And as we all know, a lawyer representing a client in a legal case is always the best place to go for objective, spin-free, totally reliable information.”

    Then why Goldy do you defer to your Democrat lawyer sources who are involved in the case?

  34. 34

    gs spews:

    I have to agree with you Goldy, The importance of not being earnest is a critical trait to watch in an individual. Kinda reminds me of George Bush’s famous statement “Read my lips, no new taxes” Actually it also reminds me of a certain current Washington Governess’s No Tax statements before lobbing close to 10 billion in new taxes at the people of this state. Well George Bush Sr. only got one term, and……….Well I guess enough said!

  35. 35

    dj spews:

    ChrisN @ 22

    “DJ also asked “Was Logan supposed to nullify the KC election because there was a 0.0006 error rate?”

    How can you nullify something that wasn’t certified….Cart before the horse DJ….”

    “Nullify” isn’t a technical term in the election codes (RCW 29A). I used nullify in the de facto sense of not putting the election results forward (i.e. not certifying)

    But, you accidentally make my point! There was no recourse other than to certify the election with such a small error rate.

    “He shouldnt have certified in the first place.”

    This is where I fail to understand your logic. What should have happened, instead? Or were the votes of 875,000 voters for dozens of races—local, county, state and federal—supposed to be discarded?

    Consider spending some time with the RCW. The county canvassing board certifies the election, and not certifying an election that is “ascertained with reasonable certainty” is a class C felony under RCW 29A.60.200 and RCW 29A.84.720. 600 votes out of 875,000 would hardly seem to fall outside of “reasonable certainty.” Or are you seriously suggesting that 875,000 votes be discarded because Logan and the board knew there might be a couple hundred errors?

    Could any county canvassing board certify any election with a zero error policy?

  36. 36

    Alan spews:

    ChrisN @ 28

    If you’re referring to what I think you are, we’ve had this discussion before on this blog at great length. There’s no law or procedure to reconcile the number of votes cast with the voter list. The list isn’t designed for that purpose, and doesn’t work for that purpose. The hoopla raised by the GOP and Sound Politics about a reconciliation discrepancy is bogus because this state doesn’t have a reconciliation process, nor does it have a database that can be used to reconcile the Nov. 2004 election.

    It is fraud to attest that something is true and accurate when you know it isn’t, but just saying that leaves you a mighty long way from a re-vote. Here’s why.

    1. Many of the people on the GOP’s felon list are eligible voters. Those convicted as juveniles didn’t lose their voting rights.

    2. Many of the ineligible felons who voted either were not informed they couldn’t vote, or were confused about their eligibility to vote. It’s not fraud because it wasn’t done intentionally.

    3. There is no evidence of organized fraud or of any candidate or party committing fraud.

    4. At this point, the King County prosecutor hasn’t charged a single felon with intentionally casting an illegal vote, i.e. committing an act satisfying the legal definition of fraud.

    5. However, even if individual acts of voting fraud occurred, this is not grounds to set aside the election unless the fraudulent votes changed the outcome of the election.

  37. 37

    dj spews:

    Dewdo @ 31

    “Rossi won the first two computerized counts and Gregoire won the one. I always felt two out of three wins made you the winner.”

    Nope. Read RCW 29A.64.061

    Upon completion of the canvass of a recount, the canvassing board shall prepare and certify an amended abstract showing the votes cast in each precinct for which the recount was conducted.
    ….
    If the nomination, election, or issue for which a recount was conducted was submitted to the voters of more than one county, the secretary of state shall canvass the amended abstracts and shall file an amended abstract with the original results of that election. An amended abstract certified under this section supersedes any prior abstract of the results for the same offices or issues at the same primary or election.

    Each subsequent count trumps the previous count.

    “Who or what is more correct? The computer or the hand counters?”

    The hand recount is definitely more accurate. Counts are made by two different people, and the results check against the machine totals. The whole thing is done in full view of party observers. Errors are commonly uncovered where the voter marked the ballot in an unambiguous way, but a way that the machine cannot read. Under RCW, the vote is valid if the voter’s intent is clear.

  38. 38

    Richard Pope spews:

    I thought that “veterinary proctology fetish” wasn’t quite correct. This website is called horsesass.org, not horsesrectum.org.

  39. 39

    dj spews:

    Terry J @ 29

    “…King County’s electoral practices have had an unintended consequence. People in Washington don’t entirely trust the electoral process any more”

    Ummm. . . it is silly to blame only KC. Other counties had errors, too. And, some had a significantly higher rate of errors than KC. But, to answer your question, they’ll get over it. Do you really thing the Republicans will lose interest in politics because they lost a very close race?

    “and people outside Washington think we are idiots.”

    Hmmm. . . my experience is that out of state people only know that we had a close race. It scarcely looks different to most out-of-staters than the 2000 race between Gordon and Cantwell. But, perhaps you know of some authoritative information that suggests otherwise. If so, please share it with us!

    “When people don’t trust the electoral process, they tend not to believe the announced results. This is a much bigger issue than the 2004 Governor’s race.”

    Florida 2000 tends to argue against that generalization. Many Democrats and non-Democrat liberals believe Bush did not win FL in 2000. Most of those folks do believe that Bush took FL legitimately in 2004.

    “The Legislature changed the law this year, but so far there are no consequences for anyone in King County for the violations of the law in 2004.”

    But why just King County? Shouldn’t all counties with illegal voters and any illegal conduct on the part of officials also suffer consequences?

    In any case, I believe some felon voters statewide will be charged (but probably not prosecuted, unless it can be shown that they knew they were ineligible), and people who filled out ballots on behalf of dead spouses will probably be charged and prosecuted. Other than that, there is not much evidence of illegal activity. But, if illegal activities do surface, I am sure there will be charges filed and hell to pay. It will just require a little time, Terry.

    ”Why expect any different result in 2006?”

    1. There will be fewer ex-felon voters because of the statewide list.

    2. There will be increased public awareness of the seriousness of voting for a dead spouse/friend.

    3. Counties will almost certainly train poll workers better to prevent improper handling (i.e. feeding into machines) of provisional ballots at the polls.

    4. Counties will probably go through their empty absentee envelopes twice, just to check for wayward unopened envelopes.

    5. Provisional ballots will contain distinctive markings.

    6. County officials will not assume all signatures for absentee ballots have been entered into the computer.

    Doing all this, we might cut errors in half. But, chances are we will not have a statewide race this close in our lifetimes.

  40. 40

    Wayne spews:

    There are several reasons you have to take what Vance says with a grain of salt. First, it would be difficult to find someone in Washington State with less interest in spinning what was said to look as bad as possible for King County. Second, lawyers have a way of slanting the facts to suit their side’s interest. It is possible to be truthful and misleading at the same time.

    “Voterless ballots” is a misleading term. Snark would like us to believe these are votes that exceed the actual number of people voting, and therefore they must be illegitimate ballots introduced into the system for fraudulent purposes. That is one possible explanation. However, it is even more likely, given the 875,000 ballots cast, that a few people who voted did not get properly credited, and the votes were legitimately cast. If King County had to prove the votes were legitimate it probably couldn’t. However, Rossi has to prove the votes were not legitimately cast, and he also cannot. Especially since voter crediting is not part of the reconciliation process.

    There will always be some inconsistencies in ballot counting involving almost one million ballots, given the size of the project and the fact that we only have a couple of elections a year and only one every four years with this many voters. Snark takes every inconsistency and assumes the worst, even if other, less sinister explanations exist.

  41. 41

    dj spews:

    Wayne @ 39

    Thanks for explaining what is meant by the term “voterless ballot.” Yeah. . . I thought that the “reconciliation” issue was dead a couple of months ago. Since I very rarely wander over to uSP, I don’t learn all the conspiracy theorists terms of art.

  42. 42

    Alan spews:

    Terry J. @ 29

    Rossi was very competitive. Even if there hadn’t been ballot handling problems and Rossi had lost on Election Night, it still would have been very close.

    Gregoire ran behind other Democratic candidates for several reasons. (1) Ruth Bennett (the Libertarian candidate) took gay votes away from Gregoire. (2) Gregoire was hurt by Rossi’s ads about the missed appeal. (3) Gregoire failed to mend fences with the black community, and some of those voters wrote in Ron Sims. (4) Gregoire and her campaign staff ignored the polls showing the race a dead heat, and continued to believe they were 5 points ahead; this overconfidence kept them from taking more aggressive actions to shore up her support.

    Washington Republicans are simply going through the same experience Democrats had in 2000. The fiasco in Florida left Democrats so distrustful of the election process that Kerry’s campaign fielded over 10,000 lawyers to watch — and if necessary litigate — the 2004 election.

    It’s nice if everyone trusts the election process, but that may be unattainable in today’s partisan climate, and it’s not necessary for the purpose of declaring a winner.

    Stop and think about this, though. If you put yourself in Berendt’s or Gregoire’s shoes, the last thing you want is to win a tainted recount. The mistakes by election workers provided fodder for a lawsuit that is costing the Democrats at least $2 million in legal expenses. So why would Berendt or anyone else on the Democratic side want this to happen? If I were party a staffer responsible for supervising the Democrats’ vote counters and recount observers, I would supervise them very closely and replace anyone who didn’t follow the rules or did anything that looked bad, in order to protect my party’s $750,000 investment in the recount. The last thing I would want is anything to happen to taint the recount.

    I’ve said before on HorsesAss that I think Dean Logan is a nice guy but not the kind of tough manager needed to run KC Elections. He was recruited from the SOS’s office to take over a trouble elections department because of his elections knowledge, not because of managerial ability. What King County needs is a good head-cracker. If it were up to me, I’d hire a retired Marine Corps colonel who doesn’t necessarily know anything about elections — that’s why you have staff experts — but does know how to give orders and make sure they’re followed.

    It’s not an easy job. Only one county in the U.S. processes more absentee ballots than King County — Los Angeles County. The KC elections director has to supervise over 4,000 precinct polling places staffed with volunteers. In King County, the actual processing, sorting, and counting is performed by casual laborers paid $12.70 an hour who work only a few days a year and do not remotely have the training or experience of full-time employees. It’s simply not financially feasible for the county to keep these people on staff year-round, but neither is it feasible to process a million ballots with the small number of permanent staff. Many counties do process ballots with full-time staffs, and these counties generally do not have the problems King County has, but the sheer size of King County makes KC a different ballgame. This one county has over 1/3 of the state’s voters, and 700 times as many voters as the state’s smallest county.

    You should also understand that not all of the distrust is on the GOP side. Democrats are deeply suspicious of GOP motives, and many of the Republicans’ proposed election reforms are viewed by Democrats as schemes to suppress legitimate Democratic votes. Many Democrats also feel the Republicans have “gamed” this election, and told many lies about what did or didn’t happen. To a considerable extent, the GOP faithful have been whipped to a froth by statements and claims from their leaders that are simply false. The Republicans also are gaming the lawsuit, arguing the election should be thrown out without a showing that Rossi was actually robbed, and trying to keep out evidence of illegal votes that benefitted Rossi. In other words, their litigation strategy is sadly lacking in what you might call intellectual honesty. I would concede the election to Rossi if the evidence showed he won; I expect no less from his side, but that’s not what we’re getting from the GOP litigation team.

  43. 43

    Alan spews:

    Terry J. @ 30

    For the purpose of unseating the state’s highest elected official, “fraud” has to satisfy the legal definition of fraud, and it has to be proved — speculation over possibilities doesn’t cut it. King County election officials and workers did nothing that constitutes fraud. Incompetence is another story, although in the context of the election statutes, incompetence is not a word that has any legal significance or consequences. Even competent people make mistakes, and if Rossi’s lawyers can show that competent people made mistakes that changed the outcome of the election, that’s all they need to do.

  44. 44

    Alan spews:

    Dewdo @ 31

    The 2-of-3 argument is totally bogus. Here’s an analogy for you: If the Seahawks are ahead at the end of the half, and still ahead at the end of the 3rd quarters, but the Vikings are ahead when the whistle blows at the end of the 4th quarter, then:

    1. How many games were played? (Hint: 1)
    2. Does the half-time score count? (Hint: no)
    3. Does the 3rd quarter score count? (Hint: no)
    4. How many final scores are there? (Hint: 1)
    5. Who won? (Hint: The Vikings)

    Got the picture now?

  45. 46

    Alan spews:

    Dewdo @ 31

    P.S., don’t believe for one moment the machine counts were more accurate than the hand count. What the recounts mainly did was add more votes to each candidate’s total that were missed by the machines. There are several reasons why the machines didn’t count all the ballots:

    1. If the edge of the ballot is torn, smudged, or frayed (which can easily happen from repeated handling) the scanning machines can’t read the timing marks and don’t count the ballot.

    2. Fingerprints, food stains, stray ink marks, and other imperfections can cause a machine to misread or not read a ballot.

    3. Some voters don’t correctly fill in the ovals. They may feel them in incompletely, or circle the candidate’s name, or write in the candidate. The machines can’t read these ballots. (Spare me the standard GOP talking points about penalizing voters who don’t follow instructions; Washington law is based on voter intent, not how well they fill in the ballot form, and furthermore voting is a precious right not lightly taken away, and using a pencil instead of a pen is not a good enough reason to disenfranchise someone.)

    The hand recount was conducted as follows. In King County, there were 80 counting teams, made up from lists submitted by the Democratic and Republican parties. The Democratic counter and Republican counter were given one or more boxes containing all the ballots from a particular precinct. They broke them down into stacks for each candidates. Each counter then separately counted each stack, and did not show his tally to the other counter. When all the ballots had been counted by both counters, they submitted their completed tally sheets to the recorder, who was a county employee. Their counts had to agree exactly. If they didn’t, they had to start over and count the precinct again. If their tallies still didn’t agree, that precinct was taken away from them and given to another counting team. Either counter had complete discretion to send any ballot to the canvassing board, no questions asked and no justification needed. The canvassing board then decided whether that ballot should be counted, and who the vote was for.

    Many of the precincts were, in fact, counted several times by the counting teams.

    In the end, every single King County ballot was scrutinized by a Democrat and a Republican, and every precinct tally counted in the final total was agreed to by the Democrats and the Republicans. And every vote in the final tally represented an actual physical ballot. That count was not off by even 1 vote.

    There were problems, but not with the accuracy of the hand count. The hand count almost certainly was absolutely accurate. The problems were that some votes cast by ineligible voters or by provisional voters whose eligibility was not verified got into the ballot pool, and once in the pool, there was no way to trace those ballots.

    By the way, in case you haven’t heard this yet, 1,796 provisional ballots from four pro-Rossi counties were counted without verifying the eligibility of the voters or checking the signatures.

  46. 47

    Alan spews:

    VCRW @ 32

    You’re normally a partisan shill spewing b.s., but this time you’ve got a valid point. I’ve had the opportunity to ask 3 members of the Democratic legal team what they think Rossi’s chances are, and they all said “none.” To be honest with you, I don’t think that opinion is ENTIRELY objective. The Democratic lawyers do feel confident, but I think a wee bit of partisan subjectivity is creeping in there. Unlike them, I don’t put Rossi’s chances at zero. I think Rossi’s chances are lousy, but not nonexistent.

  47. 50

    Alan spews:

    gs @ 34

    Gregoire wasn’t lying. She not only campaigned on a no-tax-increase platform, she meant it. The problem is, Washington depends on a volatile tax structure that produces a fluctuating revenue stream, and no governor knows whether he or she will have to seek spending cuts or tax increases. The budget is based on a revenue forecast made well after the election, in fact after the legislative session started, and even that forecast is not the last word; next spring, the Legislature will debate and pass a supplemental budget to correct guessing errors in the budget just passed.

    Let me ask you this, what would Rossi have done about transportation? The Viaduct and 520 bridge have to be replaced because they’ve reached the end of their lives and are unsafe. Would Rossi have let those structures rot away until people died? Anything he did to replace them would cost money. Big money that has to come from somewhere. If he avoided raising gas taxes by farming the projects out to private operators who would charge tolls, you would merely pay at the toll booth instead of the gas pump.

    This dog ain’t gonna hunt, my friend.

  48. 51

    Goldy spews:

    VCRW @33,

    I was wondering when somebody would make that point. The difference is, Lawyer X is commenting on standard election procedures, and not on the depositions themselves. I also quoted X directly, rather than posting a third-hand interpretation of what X wrote. If there is spin in X’s words, then I’ve laid them out for you to dissect and refute.

    And whoever said X was a “Democrat” lawyer? X is an attorney with expertise in both election procedures and election law. The only other hint I’ll give you guys is that X is not Don.

    Richard @38,

    It’s funny you mention that… I actually edited out a paragraph in which I explained that proctology is the medical specialty focusing on diseases of the colon, rectum and anus. This is HorsesAss.org not HorsesAsshole.org.

  49. 52

    Chuck spews:

    Just think the only thing between this state and Tim Eyemans resurection is the courts kicking Chrissy out of the Governors seat…bet that buggs you guys Goldy!

  50. 53

    Alan spews:

    Goldy, I think you should rename your blog HorsesDerrier.org. More genteel, without losing the essence of equine posterior that gives your blog is essential flavor.

  51. 54

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy @ 51–
    No Goldy, I think those folks at SoundPolitics have it exactly right:
    Tim Eyman===Horse’s Ass
    David Goldstein===Horse’s AssHole

    You are my best straight man Goldy…even if you often act a bit gay.

  52. 55

    Ken Lake spews:

    Come on guy’s if you are going to steal an election go to Chicago and learn to do it right. If you get caught you might in up in Twin Rivers and the state would have to by for your Med’s.

  53. 56

    bj spews:

    alan at 42-44 –

    Thanks for the coherent and reasoned comments. If only all the comments were of the same quality, I wouldn’t have to waste time skipping over all the garbage…

  54. 57

    Alan spews:

    Chuck @ 52

    How so, Chuck? The first thing Eyman needs to do is learn how to write an initiative the court’s won’t toss — or hire a lawyer to do it. When was the last time an Eyman initiative WASN’T thrown out by the courts? I can’t remember one.

    And, now that Eyman has grazed the prime pasture (expensive car tabs) and is down to bare dirt (peddling gambling at the behest of gambling interests), he needs to find some issues. Relevant ones would help. How about something that would actually do some good, that the Legislature hasn’t already done yet?

    Or, if this is just about Timmy collecting a paycheck, he can continue to shill for his well-heeled sponsors. Eventually they’ll bail after realizing Timmy’s lost his touch (or lost touch) with the voters, but he might be able to milk this cow a couple more times if he’s clever about it.

  55. 58

    Chuck spews:

    No mark my words, dislike for Tim will not overide the peoples hatred for Chrissy as well as the current tax the hell out of them political atmosphere. If the courts dont remove her you will see a passage of virtually every anti tax initiative that comes up. And it will all be on account of the gas tax increase package. Remember the support I695 rallied? That was because of the constant increases in tab fees, the same is about to happen with gas taxes.

  56. 59

    dj spews:

    Chuck @ 58

    “No mark my words, dislike for Tim will not overide the peoples hatred for Chrissy as well as the current tax the hell out of them political atmosphere….”

    All of our words will be available right here for later debriefing, amusement and ridicule!

    “And it will all be on account of the gas tax increase package. Remember the support I695 rallied? That was because of the constant increases in tab fees, the same is about to happen with gas taxes.”

    I predict this will not happen. There were lots of people who gave lukewarm support for I695 (“Reduce my license ‘bill’ by $250/year? Sure, why the hell not!”). Many of these people now know about some of the hardships this has caused for the State, counties, municipalities, and themselves. The gas tax, regressive as it is, is much more tolerable because it nickel and dimes you rather than asking you to write a big check once per year. And, at about $50/year, it doesn’t hurt most people all that much.

    I also think many of these people understand that “deferred maintenance” on transportation infrastructure leads to costlier repairs in the long run, if not disasters. (If you know your upstairs bathroom has a leaky tub, it is cheaper to call a plumber now than waiting until the plaster ceiling collapses on the first floor). The deterioration of transportation infrastructure and services since I695 is visible to many people.

  57. 60

    Erik spews:

    Unlike them, I don’t put Rossi’s chances at zero. I think Rossi’s chances are lousy, but not nonexistent.

    I place them at 10 percent because one never knows what new evidence that may come out at trial. If there is something we have not heard before that would overcome the high barrier set out by state law, Rossi might have a chance.

    However, right now the Rossi team has not found any different error than has occurred in every state in every election in the nation. To date, there isn’t even any evidence that the error rate is even great in Washington than average than other states.

    With the election statutes heavily favoring finality and not revoting, Rossi’s chances are low unless something new is uncovered about deliberate acts to derail the election.

  58. 61

    prr spews:

    Alan @ 53

    I could not agree with you more.

    Especially as this is the center for revisionist history in the Washington.

    In fact, I think that this site is showing a prejudice towards the Equine species and has fashioned it’s name at the expense of that noble breed.

    C.mon, I am sure that some wacko ACLU lawyer is on this board just itching to be able to waste more of our taxpayer dollars with another leftwing, pathetic courtcase.

  59. 62

    dj spews:

    prr @ 61

    “I am sure that some wacko ACLU lawyer is on this board just itching to be able to waste more of our taxpayer dollars with another leftwing, pathetic courtcase.”

    The ACLU will just have to wait their turn. Rossi and thugs are in charge of that arena right now.

  60. 63

    Alan spews:

    prr @ 61

    Au contraire, I think Goldy has put Equus Caballus on a pedestal. You have to go into the threads to encounter its heinie.

  61. 64

    zapporo spews:

    If the depositions resemble in any form what has been publicly brought to light, you can be fairly certain that this election will be overturned.

    To really get a feel for this, imagine that King County was heavily Republican, the remainder of the state heavily Democratic, and the actual results were reversed.

    The hue and cry from the left for overturning the election would be deafening, and rightfully so. The difference, in this hypothetical case, would be that Dino Rossi would openly conceed the point and welecome a new election (Think of Dan Evan’s example). If Christine Gregiore had taken that approach, we would not even be discussing this because she would be elected for the second time, infused with political power, becuase people respond positively to a sense of equity.

    Even the most stalwart libs admit that this election was just to close to decisively call. The mistakes made by King County alone not only far outweigh the margin of victory, but indeed provide that margin of victory.

    I understand your utter grasping for power, your desire to justify these election results even in the face of overwhelming truth, but I certainly do not find it ethical or appealing.

  62. 66

    Chuck spews:

    dj@59

    First I-695 went well for most people, and if the tax and spend people could have cooled their heels and cut waste it would have been no problem. The new gas tax increase isnt a nickel and dime thing, it is two bucks for every tank of gas! The second highest in the nation! We were already 4th highest in the nation! Did we have the 4th best roads? No even the roads in Texas are better. You take the money we pay presently in fuel tax and multiply that by the people per acre in comparison to Texas and our streets should be paved in gold! You people bitch about “BIG OIL” making so much money in fuel, it is this government that is siphoning the money for virtually nothing. If you want to really do something to help the roads and bridges, remove the “prevailing wage” requirements.

  63. 67

    dj spews:

    zapporo @ 64

    “The difference, in this hypothetical case, would be that Dino Rossi would openly conceed the point and welecome a new election.”

    Waaaah, haaaa, haaaa, haaaa, haaaaaaaa, haaaaaa. That was a good one, zapporo.

    Don’t you remember? He did have his chance to be the “political gentleman” and call for a revote while ahead. I recall outrage from Rossi because the Democrats were exercising their rights to purchase a recount.

    “Even the most stalwart libs admit that this election was just to close to decisively call.”

    No they don’t. Most libs say that the election was real close, but Gregoire had the most votes when the election was certified.

    “The mistakes made by King County alone … far outweigh the margin of victory”

    Many would say that. Many would also say that for all combinations of counties totaling 875,000+ voters, the mistakes made outweighted the margin of victory. But it doesn’t matter because Gregoire had the most votes when the election was certified.

    “but indeed [the mistakes] provide that margin of victory.”

    No. . . that is what Rossi and his thugs are claiming, dip shit. Try to keep things straight (and no, that is not a reference to your dick).

  64. 68

    jpgee spews:

    zapporo @ 64, “I understand your utter grasping for power, your desire to justify these election results even in the face of overwhelming truth, but I certainly do not find it ethical or appealing” And you find the BIAW getting personal information by lying ‘ethical or appealing’? You find the wingnut comments on this board by M.C chardonnay etc “ethical or appealing”? You already cried your eyes out yesterday about the CU post. I agree, that was not ethical or appealing, but atleast it got you to open your eyes and start writing somewhat decently. Lets see if it will last, Mr. Ethical/Appealing

  65. 69

    dj spews:

    Chuck @ 66

    I don’t know much about Texas, the State’s roads or the State’s income sources. But I can tell you, Texas doesn’t come to mind as a State I want Washington to emulate.

    The new gas tax increase isnt a nickel and dime thing, it is two bucks for every tank of gas!”

    Well, not for awhile. As I recall it starts out at 3 or 4 cents a gallon and increases over several years. But, a couple of bucks per tank-full is chump change compared to a $300 car tab tax hitting you all at once. That was my point.

    The second highest in the nation! We were already 4th highest in the nation!

    The “2nd/4th highest” argument is complete bullshit. Washington ranks 24 out of 50 states for tax burden ( http://www.taxfoundation.org/statelocal.html ). We have it pretty good, and we have a state worth living in—I’d like it to stay that way. What are your aspirations for Washington? To be a shit hole of a state like Mississippi (and note that their tax burden is the same as ours)?

    If you don’t like the gas tax, Chuck, find an alternative revenue stream. Saying “cut the fat” doesn’t cut it for me. What specifically? Should we target cuts in transportation infrastructure in areas proportional to the money they raise? If so, eastern WA loses. I don’t like that solution, even if it doesn’t directly affect me. Should we bring back the car tab tax? Should we have a state income tax? Or should we cut, cut, cut, allow our infrastructure to decay, and become “the Mississippi of the West.”

  66. 70

    Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs spews:

    $500 million in general government tax increases
    population: 6,167,800
    http://www.ofm.wa.gov/pop/april1/press2004.pdf

    $81.07 in NEW TAXES for every man, woman and child in the state.

    Thank you so much Ms.”A few months ago, I said ‘no’ when I was pressured during the primary to support higher taxes,” Gregoire

  67. 71

    Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs spews:

    I wonder how the 3yr old next door and the 8 month old across the street are going to come up with THEIR $81.07… to say nothing of all those old folks dependant on social security… or all those homeless (and hence we presume incomeless) voters in King County.

  68. 72

    Wayne spews:

    $81.07 in NEW TAXES? For EVERY PERSON IN THE STATE? By God, that’s almost $25 PER MONTH for a FAMILY OF FOUR!

    Now that we are done hyperventilating, get real. That’s small change to most people. As noted above, we are in the middle of the pack when it comes to tax rates. Given the very real needs and the huge deficit the state was facing, this is a very small increase.

    There comes a time when campaign hyperbole meets the real world. This is a very modest tax increase, and I don’t think the Eyman crowd is going to have any success blowing it into a new tax revolt.

  69. 74

    jpgee spews:

    chardonnay, probably as equally concerned as you are. LMAO@U continually. Keep on your testosterone…it might help the likes of you

  70. 75

    dj spews:

    Eugenics @ 71

    “I wonder how the 3yr old next door and the 8 month old across the street are going to come up with THEIR $81.07… to say nothing of all those old folks dependant on social security… or all those homeless (and hence we presume incomeless) voters in King County.”

    What? Could it be? Are you leaning toward a more progressive tax system that will have a smaller impact on the poor?

    But at least the Washington Democrats are generating revenue for the expenses of the state. I wonder how every man woman and child is going to pay for the $1000/year of debt the Bush administration has been racking up on their behalf for a lunatic war?

    Oh, that’s right, we will just pass it on.

    I wonder how the 3 year old next door and the 8 month old across the street are going to pay their share ($2000) of the war debt, plus interest, plus $4000 for their parents, plus interest?

  71. 76

    zip spews:

    Say dj

    We wing nuts long ago have given up on you “progressives” actually wanting a less regressive tax system. It’s just lip service. If you really meant it you’d be griping about the regressivity of this latest round of new state taxes. All you guys want is more, you don’t care where it comes from.

  72. 77

    dj spews:

    zip @ 76

    “We wing nuts long ago have given up on you “progressives” actually wanting a less regressive tax system.”

    That’s interesting. Does this mean we will be working for the same side of tax reform over the next few years?

    “If you really meant it you’d be griping about the regressively of this latest round of new state taxes.”

    Believe, me, I made my opinion known when the car tab tax went away, and as is obvious here, I prefer a car tab tax to higher gas tax even though it would cost me significantly more money (I am an automotive enthusiast and I own several cars). The tax measures that were just passed were largely triage. It will take a few year to turn the system around (it took Clinton 6 years to get a balanced budget through congress).

    “All you guys want is more, you don’t care where it comes from.”

    LOL. We’ll have to settle for triage for now. With any luck, we can stop the infrastructure decay inspired by I695 for now, and get onto meaningful tax reform over the next few years.

  73. 78

    chardonnay spews:

    Here is what I think. The Democrats are having a Governors Defense Fund Raiser Telethon starring John Kerry and Patty Murray. The election contest is draining the bank account and it is going nowhere for them anyway. kerry gave the WA State Dems $250,000 towards the down payment for the $750,000 hand count. The SOS still has that $750,000 and is keeping it pending the outcome of the Nov election contest. Except Kerry needs his money back because Theresa dumped his ass when he lost the prez election. Maybe he thinks he has a chance in 2008. Odd since Hillary is supposedly the talk of the town for 08. Unless that is nixed now pending the outcome of Hillary’s campaign fraud. What a mess. The cup of lies runneth over.

  74. 80

    zip spews:

    dj

    You guys run the state house. If the “progressive” interest groups had any scruples, the regressiveness of our system would have been at least MENTIONED ONCE in this session. It was not, which proves my point. It was like a feeding frenzy. As long as the money will flow in, none of you care where it comes from. FYI I support the Sims plan at least until the Democrats water it down and turn it into just another tax hike.

  75. 81

    dj spews:

    “If the “progressive” interest groups had any scruples, the regressiveness of our system would have been at least MENTIONED ONCE in this session.”

    It was. See http://www.leg.wa.gov/pub/bill.....96.SBR.htm

    “FYI I support the Sims plan at least until the Democrats water it down …”

    Excellent! You have given me something to respect you for.

  76. 82

    GS spews:

    After seeing all these new taxes I am happy today! Why? Because I talked to alot of my friends who voted for CG and all were talking badly about her. My brother in law who was a staunch defender of hers said “She is a one term governor, anyone could beat here now”! I tend to agree, I can see all the campaign commercials with her “I never raised taxes, and no new taxes, etc, it’s gonna bite her right in the butt!

  77. 83

    Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs spews:

    Interesting, all that chatter and blather about “honest effort” and “real journalists’ and gee whiz, no mention of a certain deposition that’s certainly made for some fascinating reading tonite.

  78. 85

    zip spews:

    dj @ 81

    Give me a break, that link was to the estate tax. Way to dodge the question. I’m not aware of one “progressive” interest group who objected to the regressive taxes in this budget. And if they won’t bring it up while the Democrats who run this state are in the middle of the feeding frenzy, that makes them hypocrites.

  79. 86

    dj spews:

    zip @ 85

    Read again, you said

    “If the “progressive” interest groups had any scruples, the regressiveness of our system would have been at least MENTIONED ONCE in this session.”

    and someone from the Pro side (Office of Financial Management, Elder Care Alliance, Senior Citizens Lobby, League of Education Voters, or Resident Councils of WA) said: “This is a progressive tax that helps reform Washington’s regressive tax structure.”

    (Please note single mention of Washington’s regressive tax structure).

    But, I agree with your sentiment that more should have been said and done. You and I can work on that for the next session!

  80. 87

    zip spews:

    Yeah OK he or she said it. Hopefully you see my point, so I won’t beat it alll the way into the ground.

  81. 88

    Chuck spews:

    dj@69
    I gave you an exelent example, “prevailing wage” eliminate it you can hire more and build more. Prevailing wage is a complete waste of money. A contractor should not be bound by this stupid rule.

  82. 89

    Chuck spews:

    dj@69
    “The “2nd/4th highest” argument is complete bullshit. Washington ranks 24 out of 50 states for tax burden”

    No it is the real fact, check it out!

  83. 90

    dj spews:

    Chuck @ 89

    Say what? Is there a link missing from your post? The url I provided above has rankings for state tax burden. Washington State ranks 24th at least through July 2005 (when some new taxes kick in, I believe). Since different states use different types of taxes (income, sales, corporate income, etc) to fund the government, the overall state tax burden, rather than any single tax, is the proper measure of burden.

  84. 91

    dj spews:

    Chuck @ 88

    Economists will not all agree on the benefits or disadvantages of prevailing wage requirements (or other types of “living wage” requirements). I believe the primary argument in favor is that they help mitigate against low-quality work from low-bidding. I don’t have a dog in that fight, so I’ll not bother to debate it—Alan’s comment that got this thread started was, I believe, a bit tounge-in-cheek (as were my responses).

  85. 92

    AllHatAndNoHorse spews:

    Why does prevailing wage, harm any business?
    All bidders, are equal in the fact they share the same labor cost.
    If anything, it levels the field between contractors that bid these projects.
    If you want to pay $7/hour, go contract yard work.

  86. 93

    Puddybud spews:

    Hey Goldy: You never answered my question I posted to you on the wonderful SoundPolitics blog. Butt as you are, no guts to answer.

    Well now that we have the real Logan deposition and he did say it why don’t you do the right thing and update your lies and innuendos above? Chris Vance was right, but from the HorsesAss himself…. SILENCE!!!! Nah, that would prove you have guts, but many of us know you don’t have any.

    Oh yes, taxes. Looks like Rossi was right again. Democrats, never saw a tax they did’t like.

    See ya.

    Pudster

  87. 94

    One Eyed Man is King spews:

    Carl@2:
    Do you realize what you just said? You just informed us that when a Democrat walks in, they tell him, “we need Republicans in this area,” and call him an honorary Republican–never mind the fact that he’s supposed to be the balance of bias against the OTHER Democrats working the poll!
    I know you were trying to defend the equity of the process, but, Bud, You just bombed the heck out of it.
    _______________________________________________________
    “In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.”
    -Danish Proverb