“The David Goldstein Show” tonight on Newsradio 710-KIRO

Tonight on “The David Goldstein Show”, 7PM to 10PM on Newsradio 710-KIRO:

7PM: Are the Sonics making a “good faith effort” to keep the team in Seattle?
The Seattle Times’ Danny Westneat chronicled today the changing moods of two Sonics bloggers, who have gone from working with Clay Bennett’s ownership group to secure arena financing to criticizing his efforts as “a complete and 100 percent zero.” Blogger Brian Robinson of SonicsCentral.com joins me in the studio to discuss the state of the Sonics. Is Bennett making an honest effort to keep the team in Seattle? Westneat doesn’t seem to think so.

8PM: Do you believe?
According to a new Gallup Poll, nearly one in three Americans believe the Bible is the literal word of God. Um… I’m betting nowhere near one in three Americans have actually read the Bible cover to cover. Meanwhile, tomorrow marks the grand opening of the Creation Museum in Peterburg KY, which argues that the Earth is 6,000 years old, and I suppose that the dinosaurs didn’t fit on Noah’s Ark. Even if you’re a person of faith, is this something we should be proud of, that so many Americans reject science?

And update on the food safety crisis, plus other issues of the day.

Tune in tonight (or listen to the live stream) and give me a call: 1-877-710-KIRO (5476).


  1. 1

    harry poon spews:

    Only one in 5 Christians know who delivered the Sermon on the Mount. One in 100 knows what it was about.

  2. 4

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    I believe that if Puffybutt and Johnboy are the best Christianity has to offer, God’s in deep shit.

  3. 5

    Mick spews:


    One in five huh ? I am not sure what your definition of a Christian is , but for me personally it is doing the things in the Sermon of the Mount that is the hard part . I don’t see why you would not read the Bible if you were a believer unless you lived in a country where it was not allowed . Even in Iraq they allow Christians to read the Bible . I guess your point is we are an ignorant bunch .
    Must be a slow week .

  4. 6


    Karl Rove Playbook 101 for liberal blogs:

    1. Using an anonymous name, get established on a liberal blog.

    2. Insult (in the most obnoxious, disgusting manner possible) any Republicans that might be willing to discuss issues with Democrats. Do not allow substantive conversations to occur, as said Republicans might begin to doubt the wisdom and integrity of the Republican leadership. Personal insults (especially aimed at family members) are very effective in preventing substantive conversations.

    3. Discourage any moderates and reasonable liberals from entering into the discussion. Impress upon any moderates that the Democratic party does not value their vote. While it is not generally possible to get them to vote for Republicans, keeping them away from the polls is a desirable outcome. Again, irrelevant comments regarding sex acts with family members can be effective in this area.

    4. Continue to make outrageous and obscene posts that can be copied over to Republican blogs as the “opinions of the Democrats”. These posts should be very short on substance and offer no rational arguments.

    Oh, and we apparently have one more directive in the playbook.

    5. As many Democrats identify themselves as Christian, those Democrats should be publicly ridiculed by Republican plants in liberal blogs. Non-Christian Democrats should be encouraged to believe that anyone professing Christianity is a follower of Pat Robertson and James Dobson.

    Let’s see. Who around here seems to post in that manner?

    The jig is up, Mr. Minion. You are no Democrat. You deliberately try to divide the Democratic Party against itself. You discourage moderate Democrats from voting.

    You post that we should lie and cheat in order for your posts to be re-posted as the “voice of Democrats” on right wing blogs.

    A real Democrat might disagree with various opinions voiced, but would never try to discourage moderate or even conservative Democrats from participating, as we know that without the moderate and even the conservative wings of the Democratic party, we would not be in the majority today. Our diversity is our strength.

    Since you can’t beat us when we work together, your only hope is to divide us. Sorry to disappoint you, Mr. Minion, but it isn’t going to happen.

  5. 7


    Ok, my little lecture to our anonymous minion of Luke Esser out of the way, on to the topic at hand.

    One thing that you have to look at when asking if a person believes in the Bible as the “literal word of God is what they mean by that phrase.

    Most Christians understand that much of the Bible is written in parables. Some do not.

    So, is Genesis the exact, minute-by-minute account of how the universe was created, or is it a parable, written so that a bronze-age group of nomads could have an understanding that the universe was created and that mankind has an important role in it? Somehow, an intense discussion of string theory given to those bronze age nomads would probably not have been of much use to them.

    On the other hand, there is the phrase “In the beginning was the Word”. Oddly enough, modern physics does seem to believe that absolutely everything is made up of nothing more than vibrations. (Don’t beat me up too much on that one, as I make no claim to actually understanding more about it than can be learned by reading a couple of popular books and watching a really interesting episode of “Nova”.)

    Other verses warn us not to take timelines in the Bible too seriously. “For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.” (Psalm 90:4) and “with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” (II-Peter 3:8)

    Those verses do seem to indicate that God does not punch a time clock.

    In my own denomination, we look to what is called the “Wesleyan Quadrilateral”. There are four things to be considered when determining religious truth. Reason, Experience, Scripture and Tradition. (Most major denominations have similar teachings.)

    Not that we think Scripture to be fallible, but that we know that our understanding of scripture is fallible, and so must be compared with the other three.

    If one or more of those seems out of touch with the others, that’s a warning sign that we got something wrong or don’t understand something completely.

    Are there Christians (and members of other faiths) that do not understand the relationship between faith and science? Of course there are. Hey, a big chunk of the American public still thinks that Iraq had something to do with 9/11, and that’s a comparatively simple subject.

    There are also people that claim to believe in evolution that have no real idea of what that means, and if you ask them about the voyage of the Beagle, they’ll think you’re talking about a Disney movie.

    The largest Christian denominations have publicly stated that evolution is how the species of the Earth came to be what they are today.

    As a Christian, I would tell you that God set up the rules, knowing in advance what would come of them, then tipped the first domino in the chain. No need for miraculous ongoing intervention along the line of the “Intelligent Design” folks’ ideas.

    What does a good workman say? Measure twice, cut once. I’ve always thought that the “Intelligent Design” folks didn’t give God enough credit for doing the job right the first time.

  6. 8

    American Babe spews:

    The Dark Side of Bill Richardson

    Gov. Bill Richardson’s resume looks great … until you read the fine print. For starters …

    1. He’s the son of a banker, attended a private prep school and an Ivy League college, and was president of a fraternity — not the kind of personal history that endears someone to progressive populists as a “man of the people.”

    2. He backed Bush’s invasion of Iraq, and has been called a “Lieberman Democrat” because of his close ties to the Democratic Leadership Council.

    3. As Clinton’s energy secretary, he backed the deregulation that made the Enron scandal possible.

    4. After leaving Clinton’s cabinet, he was a business associate of Henry Kissinger.

    5. As New Mexico’s governor, he shut down the 2004 recount, throwing his state’s electoral votes to Bush — to keep the anti-Richardson faction in the state Democratic party from getting more delegates from poor districts where votes were suppressed. (Greg Palast, “Armed Madhouse,” pp. 256-258.)

    6. He rammed a bill through the New Mexico legislature requiring anyone requesting a recount to post $1 million bond and signed a GOP bill imposing photo-ID on New Mexico voters. (Palast, “Armed Madhouse,” p. 256.)

    7. He refused to support his fellow Democrats’ demands for Alberto Gonzales’ ouster because of his personal loyalty to Gonzo as a fellow Hispanic. http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt.....02178.html

    Richardson has little chance of winning the Democratic nomination, and knows it. He simply doesn’t have the organization or fundraising ability needed to compete with the first-tier candidates. Undoubtedly, by running, he’s jockeying for a shot at the No. 2 spot on the ticket. But do we really want a guy with his “credentials” representing us, and our party? When you get to really know the guy, his resume doesn’t look so great after all. That’s my opinion.

  7. 11

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The following is a long read, but you need it read it, if you’re even thinking of supporting Richardson:

    “Kerry won New Mexico – if you counted the votes. I could see how the non-count could happen in the plantation lands of Little Texas. But one fact drove me straight nuts: In the end, this state and its damaged elections were in the hands of a Democrat and a Mexican-American one at that. Or maybe not. … I asked Santiago Juarez, ‘Exactly how does a Mexican get the name Bill Richardson?’ … Richardson’s dad, he explained, was a Citibank executive assigned to Mexico City. There he met Governor Bill’s mom and – milagro! – a Mexican-American was born. Richardson gets big mileage out of his mother’s heritage … [b]ut it’s just as legitimate to say that Richardson is a Citibank-American.

    “But Richardson is more than that. Between leaving Bill Clinton’s cabinet … and grabbing a Hispanic-district seat in Congress, Richardson became a partner in (Henry) Kissinger and Associates. That would make Richardson a Kissinger-American as well.
    In New Mexico, the issue of uncounted votes is more than skin deep. Lots of Mexican-American votes don’t tally, but Citibank-American votes never get lost. …

    “Te story of America’s failed elections is not about undervotes. It’s about underclass. Disenfranchisement is class warfare by other means. It just happens that, in New Mexico, the colors of the underclass are, for the most part, brown and red. …

    “Some New Mexico Democrats have no trouble at the voting booth. In Santa Fe, you find trust-fund refugees from Los Angeles wearing Navajo turquoise jewelry and ‘casual’ clothes that cost more than my car. Each one has a personal healer, an unfinished film script and a tan so deep you’d think they’re bred for their leather. They’re Democrats and their votes count. Voting – or at least voting that gets tabulated – is a class privilege. The effect is racial and partisan, but the engine is economic.

    “The second- and third-highest undervotes in New Mexico were recorded in McKinley and Cibola counties – 85% and 72% Hispanic and Native. But the undervote champ is nearly the whitest county in New Mexico: DeBaca, which mangled and lost 8.4% of ballots cast. White DeBaca, whose average income hovers at the national poverty level, is poorer than Hispanic Cibola. No question, disenfranchisement gives off an ugly racial smell, but income is the real predictor of vote loss. …

    “This was my third investigation in New Mexico in twenty years. The first time, the state’s Attorney General brought me in to go over the account books of Public Service of New Mexico (PNM), a racketeering enterprise masquerading as an electric company. Too young to understand what I wasn’t supposed to know, I proudly mapped out the sewerage lines of deceit connecting the gas drillers, water lords and political elite of New Mexico. …

    “Whose flag does Bill Richardson carry in the nouvelle class war? When I was checking out the New Mexico vote in 2005, my old friend Public Service of New Mexico hit the front page, sued by the State of California for conspiring with Enron to rig the California power market. … Where was Richardson? He was in Washington, Clinton’s Secretary of Energy, playing cubby cheerleader for PNM’s plan for ‘deregulation’ of the energy market. Deregulation made PNM’s games possible – and Richardson’s employment by Kissinger inevitable.

    “What about all those suspect spoiled votes in Hispanic and Indian precincts … ? Why didn’t this Mexican-American Democrat ask for a recount? It didn’t just slip Richardson’s little mind: He actively did everything in his power to stop a recount. I was told that it was Richardson himself who encouraged Secretary of State Vigil –Giron to reject the $114,000 payment from pissed-off Democrats and the Green Party. …

    “Halting the 2004 recount wasn’t enough for Governor Bill, however. He demanded the legislature pass a ‘reform’ law that would require anyone wanting a recount of a suspicious vote to put up a bond of over one million dollars. As a result, ‘free and fair elections’ are now effectively outlawed in Nex Mexico. … On his phony reform law, Richardson was called out by a fellow Democrat, State Senator Linda Lopez – an act of indiscreet defiance that would not be forgotten by the Governor’s circle.

    “The centerpiece of the law signed by the Governor: Ms. Fox-Young’s proposal to require photo ID for new voters. Maybe the former Cabinet Secretary and United Nations Ambassador Richardson couldn’t imagine that photo Ids would be a problem for some voters. After all, Mexican-Americans in Little Texas may have trouble producing acceptable Ids, but it’s not problem at all for a Kissinger-American like Governor Richardson. …

    “Class issues aside, why didn’t the Democratic Party leadership defend those provisional ballots cast by Democrats or hunt for their missing votes? One possible answer was delivered to me by a computer whiz who likes to play with spreadsheets …. He sent me several giant canvasses of color-coded voting data explicating the maddeningly-complex numerology of New Mexico politics. Now here’s a bit of arcana you shouldn’t need to remember after you’re done with this paragraph: The number of delegates to the Democratic Party county convention from each precinct is determined by that precinct’s vote for the Democratic candidate for President. Got that? Now, it so happens that there was a factional battle royal within the Democratic Party (so what’s new?); and it so happens, that the lower the recorded vote for Kerry in Hispanic districts, the lower the number of delegates who oppose Richardson’s faction.

    “Remember Senator Lopez, Ms. Trouble? She was the party’s county chair and a pain to the Governor’s allies. After the 2004 election, she was voted out as Chairwoman. Ensuring ‘her’ voters got counted was hardly Priority One for the Democratic bosses. The bullet they shot at Lopez hit Kerry between the eyes. Didn’t the party care about Kerry’s count? Forget it: To those involved in the political infighting, preserving New Mexico’s electoral votes for Kerry was as valuable as a bag of chicken feathers. ‘All politics is local’ is one of those cliches so accurate you tend to dismiss it. Only those who’ve been inside local campaigns know what I mean: Control of the White House is esoteric stuff that doesn’t mean a thing to a hack trying to keep his patronage post in the local dogcatcher’s office.”

    From Greg Palast, “Armed Madhouse,” pp. 253-258; quoted under the Fair Use doctrine.

    Roger Rabbit Commentary: Now … does this sound like someone you want to be one of the Democratic Party’s standard bearers in 2008? Is this who we need to heal the damage of the Bush regime?

  8. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I, too, was initially impressed by Richardson’s resume; and even toyed with the idea of backing him. But — as you can see — Roger Rabbit has left the Richardson reservation.

  9. 15


    Hi, Roger!

    Looks like I’m going to have to read Mr. Palast’s latest book. I take it that it is on the “Roger Rabbit Reading List”.

    Although he finally decided to call for Mr. Gonzales to leave office, I am greatly troubled by his reasoning for the delay. I will, however, give him a few points for being honest about that reasoning.

    His war stance is quite clear, and I can’t fault him for his earlier support without faulting all of the other Democrats that also supported the war in the beginning. Of course, since of the available choices, I’m finding myself leaning towards Senator Obama (and hoping that Vice President Gore joins the race) that’s neither here nor there.

    As to his reasoning for shutting down the recount and for signing the voter ID bill, well, they both trouble me, regardless of the reasons.

    Still, even with all of the issues above, and the rest of them that you noted, if he ends up being the nominee, I could vote for him without even holding my nose.

    Senator Clinton, on the other hand, I could vote for, but only with nose firmly pinched off. She’s far and away better than any of the Republicans running (while I rather like Rep Paul, there is no way I could vote for him for President, and none of the others are worth a thought) but I still cannot fathom how she is the “front runner” among the several very good Democrats running.

    So far, I’m ranking them:

    1. Vice President Gore (if he’ll run)
    2. Senator Obama
    3. Senator Edwards (and very close to Senator Obama)
    4. Governor Richarson
    5. Senator Clinton

    No real political or philosophical reasons between Sen Obama and Sen Edwards. I just like Sen Obama better, and yes, the idea of a black President appeals to me. It’s one of those barriers that should be knocked down, and Sen Obama may well be the right person to do it.

    (The barrier against a woman President should also be knocked down, but I’m not convinced that Sen Clinton is the right woman to do it.)

    Still, even the primaries are very far away, and many things can change between now and then.

  10. 16

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @6 “As many Democrats identify themselves as Christian, those Democrats should be publicly ridiculed by Republican plants in liberal blogs. Non-Christian Democrats should be encouraged to believe that anyone professing Christianity is a follower of Pat Robertson and James Dobson.”

    I am, as I’ve stated many times on HA, a professing Christian believer; and I am NOT (as should be obvious to all) a follower or admirer of Robertson and Dobson or any of the other rightwing haters posing as Christians.

    As I’ve said before, calling themselves Christians doesn’t make them Christians.

  11. 17

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It’s going to be fun watching all those self-described “Christian” Republicans trying to crawl through the eye of the needle.

  12. 18

    Dave Gibney spews:

    It wasn’t just the deregulation that allowed Enron and Worldcom. It was also the lack of enforcement of remaining regs. And that happened on the chimp’s watch.

  13. 19

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @11 There are only 3 Democrats who have a chance — Hillary, Obama, and Edwards. (Forget Gore; he’s not running.) Of those 3 who is the populist? has no hidden baggage (that we know of)? is most sincere? You figure it out. You’ve still got a few months to think it over.

  14. 20


    Well, Roger, while God knows what’s going on in their hearts (and I truly hope they have the best of intentions), I have no idea what is going on in their heads.

    The mental image I have for them is of God saying “Welcome, my child. I see in your heart that you meant well, but how did you manage to misunderstand Me that badly?”

    (Of course, I imagine that He’ll be saying the same thing to me about any number of things.)

  15. 21

    Dave Gibney spews:

    Hi John and Roger. The teachings of christ as I understand them are well worthwhile. The hyporcritical opportunists like Fawlell and Robertson, well its sort of unfortunate that they didn’t join the purple punch folks in Guyana.

  16. 22

    Dave Gibney spews:

    Well, I’ll vote for any of them. I’m not sure I’ll work for any of them. Of the three mentioned, I’d rather Edwards.

  17. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I have to admit there are things about Edwards I don’t like. He’ll sacrifice deficit reduction to pay for universal health care — but at least he’s honest about that. I thought he was a weak and ineffectual debater in the 2004 campaign — but perhaps he has matured. His qualifications aren’t real deep — only 1 term in the U.S. Senate, no foreign policy credentials. And it’s debatable whether he’s even a contender, as he lags Clinton and Obama in the polls by quite a bit, and isn’t as strong in organization or fundraising either. I’m certainly not backing Edwards at this point — I’ll take my time about this and make a decision when I feel as sure as it’s possible to feel. At this point, I definitely am NOT a Hillary fan, but that doesn’t mean I’m hoping for an Obama win, either. I’m far from sold on Obama, for lots of reasons. If Hillary gets the upper hand and Gore jumps into the race to stop her, then the decision becomes easy for me, but like I said, until Gore tells us differently he’s not in the race.

  18. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @21 You’re on the right track. Any Democrat is better than any Republican in ’08.

  19. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    And if Richardson is on the ticket, so be it, I’ll hold my nose and vote for him. But after what I’ve learned about him, I sure as hell won’t bust my bunny balls to help him get on the ticket.

  20. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @14 Mrs. Rabbit brought it home from the local Fred Meyer. It cost $11.25 and worth every penny — not just for Palast’s single-handed documentation of the GOP’s vote suppression schemes, but for what he says about a whole range of issues. I found Palast’s explanation of what is happening to South America’s poor, and why, and by whom, utterly fascinating. Hugo Chavez may be a thug and a scheming dictator, but he, at least, is scheming for the benefit of South America’s poor and oppressed. Palast’s description of how Chavez outmaneuvered the Busheviks, oil companies, and coup plotters is downright funny and by itself worth the eleven bucks. “Armed Madhouse” is a must-read.

  21. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Palast has an interesting background. He was trained as a corporate fraud investigator. That background taught him what file cabinets to look in, and what to look for in them. He’s an expert at “following the money.” He took those skills into investigative journalism and is now the closest thing the English-speaking world has to a Jack Anderson — he’s the last of the muckrakers, and boy did he show up in the nick of time. Never has our country been in greater need of a journalist like him. Needless to say, it’s no accident he can’t get published in his own country and has to work for a British TV network to carry on his work. Fortunately, all of his books have been bestsellers, which not only is helping get the word out, but the income from the book sales also helps him to carry on his work. I believe Palast is going to be with us for a long time, and his fame will only grow.

    And for you righty trolls out there, before you start attacking Palast as a liberal shill, be forewarned that he doesn’t pull his punches against Democrats either. As Exhibit A, read the demolition job he did on Bill Richardson, which I quoted above.

  22. 28


    Hi, Dave.

    It’s difficult for me to understand how someone can profess to be Christian and then preach with such apparent disdain for others.

    There are any number of folks that I don’t like. Frankly, I’m a rather irritable, obnoxious and opinionated old coot. (Not that anyone here would notice that ;-)

    But if someone believes in Christianity, it seems to me that they should at least give some thoughts to the teachings of the Christ. Little things like “love your neighbor as yourself” and “forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us and “blessed are the peacemakers”.

    Thankfully, I am only required to love my neighbor, not like him. I work hard to wish everyone well, and for those that I think are doing harm, I hope that they see their error and try to fix it.

    And for the current crowd in the Bush administration, I am reminded of the Rabbi’s prayer for the Tsar in “Fiddler on the Roof”

    May God bless and keep them… far away from us!

    Good night, all!

  23. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @20 Don’t worry, they’re gonna get theirs. Remember the parable about the camel passing through the eye of a needle? Just visualize those rich hypocrites trying to squeeze their corpulent asses through the eye of a needle … and you’ll get the idea of what their fate will be.

  24. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @14 Don’t vote for someone because of their race or gender; vote for him/her because of what s/he will do as president. And remember there is only one progressive candidate who has a shot at winning: Edwards. Obama is more conservative than many Democrats realize.

  25. 31

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Many people think Iraq is THE issue. I don’t. Iraq is going to end fairly quickly, one way or another.

    Going forward, there are 2 big issues: The large-and-growing economic disparity between American’s owning class and working and middle classes, and health care.

    Universal health care needs to happen; its time has come. The American people simply must be freed from fear of being dispossessed and shoved into poverty by illness or ill health. This fear is wearing us all down, and we can’t stand much more of it.

    The concentration of wealth in the hands of a tiny few has led to economic fear and insecurity for everyone else. That, too, is wearing us down and threatens to destroy the fabric of our nation; and must be addressed in some way. Edwards believes the solution is to strengthen organized labor; that’s part of it, but it will take more. The whole tax system needs overhaul, and we need to revisit and reconfigure our trade policies. We simply must not let our leaders lead us into a “race to the bottom” in wages and standards of living — our aspirations need to be something greater than turning America into a third world country. We must do something about energy, trade deficits, budget deficits — there’s a host of big problems on the table.

    As Democrats, we may not all agree on what priority to give to each of these issues, or even how to address them; but all Democrats can agree on one thing: We don’t trust ANY Republican to deal with ANY of these issues. Any Democrat will be better than any Republican! On that point, we must and will remain united.

  26. 32

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @27 “Frankly, I’m a rather irritable, obnoxious and opinionated old coot. (Not that anyone here would notice that ;-)”

    So am I, but I think they notice it in me more than they notice it in you, for some unfathomable reason. =:-D

  27. 33

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @27 I’m going to have an awful hard time with the part of Christianity that says I have to forgive those fucking Republicans …

  28. 34


    Hmmm. Before heading off to my nice warm bed, I suppose one more post won’t hurt…

    So far, and the record is far from complete, Mr. Obama seems more fiscally conservative than Mr. Edwards, but I like some of Mr. Edwards’ ideas a bit more. It ends up being pretty much a toss up for now.

    While race should never be taken into consideration before qualifications, it is, regardless of what we may wish, a factor, and if Mr. Obama gets a bit of benefit from his race from me, it is likely to be more than offset by folks that will vote against him simply because he has more melanin in his skin than they do.

    And… Perhaps having been in situations where that additional melanin has caused difficulties would be a useful bit of experience, along with giving a big chunk of our population a positive role model.

    Especially now, while we’re trying to undo the damage caused by an unqualified and incompetent President, we forget that along with the need for a competent, honest leader, the President is also a role model for many and an embodiment of the American ideal.

    John Kennedy may or may not have ended up as a great President. He wasn’t with us long enough for us to really know that.

    But he was with us long enough to be an example to the world of what the United States stands for, who we are and what we strive for.

    I think we really need another one of those now, and I don’t really see it in Mr. Edwards, and certainly not in Ms. Clinton.

    But there is just a glimmer of it in Mr. Obama, and his being black is part of that glimmer, just as John Kennedy’s being an Irish Catholic was part of his.

  29. 35

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    We’ll see if Barack catches fire. But remember, the downside is that if a charisma leader disappoints, his fall is awfully hard on the faithful who staked their hopes on believing in him.

  30. 36

    Dave Gibney spews:

    I don’t claim to be a christian, I try to follow his teachings and those of others (Gandhi, Raven, Heinlein,…)I have to admit that my comment about the punch fell very short of that goal, I will reflect on this and try again.

  31. 37

    Tuor spews:

    Obama is the Replacement Candidate. My theory is that the Dems originally planned to have Hillary Clinton and Colin Powell both as candidates, and then have them become running-mates. Only Powell jettisoned his credibility and the Dems had to find another black guy to run with Clinton. Now, presto, this Obama guy appears out of nowhere (at least, *I* had never heard of him before).

    So, I figure that Clinton and Obama are eventually going to get on the same ticket, the Dems can get that warm feeling of being *really* embracing of women and minorities and can strut their stuff all over the airwaves.

    I can already feel my gag-reflex kicking in.

  32. 38

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Remember that Johnboy is really a Publican posing as a Democrat. You have to be very careful, but if you read his posts in detail (and yes I know it’s painful) you can see he sometimes slips up. Remember, we’re in the trouble we’re in because of assholes like Johnboy. While there can be no doubt that Rove and company are traitors who deserve justice, it’s the Johnboy’s who deserve the SPECIAL justice. They’re actually worse than the Roves. They PRETEND to be on the right side and then either deliberately, or out of stupidity, send America down the road to ruin. Shun these pretenders and save America. Coddle them, and send us off the cliff. The choice is clear.

  33. 40

    klake spews:

    Folks one of your friends has fallen in battle defending your causes now it’s your turn to aid him. Goldy and Gang bring out your offering plates and collect money in the streets of Seattle for Bagdad McDermott, and Reverent John Barelli can be in charge for paying the debt to Society.
    WASHINGTON — Rep. Jim McDermott has had the luxury of winning big and cheaply in recent elections, facing only token opposition But that fortunate history could pose a problem for McDermott if the Seattle Democrat is forced to pay more than $1 million in legal fees and penalties to settle his long-running legal battle with House Minority Leader John Boehner.
    Unlike colleagues who have been able to tap into campaign funds for legal costs, McDermott doesn’t have enough cash in his coffers to cover his bills.
    The prospect that McDermott soon will be liable for a huge payout became a real possibility earlier this month after the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia ruled 5-4 against him. The defeat leaves him with one remaining legal recourse — an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. McDermott and his lawyers have until July to decide, but legal observers say it’s highly unlikely an appeal would be successful.

  34. 41



    Your comments in regards to Mr. Minion on an earlier thread stated that you had met a few progressive Democrats that actually act like Mr. Minion.

    I’ve met a few myself, but unlike Mr. Minion, they recognize that we need moderate Democrats if we’re ever going to stay in a position to make any gains. Independents are becoming (if they have not already become) the largest group of voters. They may not like moderates, but they understand that the party must have them, and also understand that moderates are open to persuasion when the facts are there to support something.

    Progressives do not try to get moderates or even conservatives to leave the party.

    Read over Mr. Minion’s posts. Look for anything like rational argument or discussion of issues. He posts a few news stories with liberal-sounding barbs, then proceeds to break up any discussion with the vilest insults he can manage.

    He has a special hatred for me, because I tend to work rather hard at keeping discussion alive, and I’m willing to argue with the right-wingers and persuade them, rather than just running them back to unSP where no one will even attempt to show them the errors of their ways.

    Just above, he calls me a “traitor” and threatens “special justice”, and he’s made not-very-veiled threats before. Mr. Minion would run off everyone except those on the very far left, that he knows that he cannot discourage.

    Notice that he is attempting to claim that I’m actually a Republican plant. If his contentions were correct, the very last thing that I would do is to post under my own name, in a manner where I am easily contacted in person.

    But… If he can even get a few folks to believe him, he stifles discussion of issues and discourages moderates from participating. That appears to be the goal.

    The Republican playbook has always been to stifle discussion and keep moderate Democrats and liberal independents from participating. Can you think of anything that could be done on this blog that would be more effective at that than the actions of Mr. Minion?

    I suppose that it is just barely possible that Mr. Minion is actually a very-far-left person that simply has no common sense or interpersonal skills. Has anyone actually met RightEqualsStupid? Some of the anonymous posters here have actually come to gatherings, and have been met by other posters.

    But, if he’s the anonymous bomb-thrower that he appears to be, then he’s either a Republican or he’s so far to the left that he’s lost touch with reality.

  35. 42

    Chadt spews:

    Thanks a lot, Roger. You COULD have published this a week ago BEFORE I sent money to the Richardson campaign, but no…

    I would like to see this stuff verified by another author than Palast, simply because he seems a bit too intense (which is fine, but zealousness sometimes distorts judgement). The DLC scares me to death, and is my biggest reason to find Hillary distasteful. Now somebody’s gonna tell me that Gore in DLC too, I suppose.

  36. 43

    Chadt spews:

    #38 R.E.S.

    Why does your style so closely resemble our favorite wingnut
    vandals? I think John has shrewdly assessed your true colors. I think you’re either a frustrated 8th grader or a plant.

  37. 44

    harry poon spews:

    “Moderation in the pursuit of liberty is no virtue.”
    Barry Goldwater

    Moderates are, politically, totally ineffective — except at maintaining the status quo. Lieberman is a moderate.

  38. 45

    harry poon spews:

    Moderates are the enablers of right and left wing extremists –who are BOTH totalitarians.

    “Let’s reach across the aisle and ‘compromise’ with the right wing totalitarians.” John Barrelli’s political message.

  39. 46

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    No threats Johnboy. Just wishes. The special justice I refer to is the kind that traitors like you get when they see their attempts at ruining America destroyed. That’s punishment enough for a punk like you.

    You’re a dicksucking Publican and the sooner you admit it the better. Remember, we have spineless Democrats who are willing to send people to war because of cowards like you.

    I’m fine with discussion by the way, just so long as it isn’t the likes of a 13-year old like you pretending not to talk to me by talking to others. Does your wife know you’re such a punk?

    In any event, when you try to take the middle ground, you prove you’re less than nothing. Take a stand you spineless cunt.

  40. 47

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    You got it Harry – let’s compromise – which is code from Publican wannabes like JohnBoy for “LET’S GIVE IN.” Fuck him and anyone like him.

  41. 48


    Mr. Poon.

    If you consider moderates to be enablers of the extremes, then exactly who is left?

    Around this blog, I’m probably pretty moderate, but then this is a rather left-leaning bunch. Out among the general population, most folks consider me to be a liberal.

    My own take on it is that none of the lables fit perfectly. I believe in personal liberty, small government that stays out of people’s personal lives, and fiscal responsibility. When government intervenes, it needs to be primarily to “level the field” in helping the individual stand up to the powerful. Public assistance should be geared towards helping people become successful. We shouldn’t be asking our grandchildren to pay our bills.

    Thirty years ago, those views would have made me a conservative. Now it’s liberal, and thirty years from now, assuming I’m still around, I have no idea what the lable will be, but whatever that label is I’ll wear it proudly.

    Remember that if extreme liberals want to exclude folks like me from the ranks, you also end up excluding most of the Democrats in Congress, along with most of the Democrats in Olympia.

    While I suppose that some folks might consider ideological purity to be more important than winning, I don’t, and while folks like me are the majority of the folks that vote with the Democratic Party, I’m happy to include any honest person of good will to the group, and listen to what they have to say.

    Essentially, while the extremes rant about moderates taking over the party, it was our party to begin with, and still is. You’re welcome to join us and add your voice to the discussion, but I’m not leaving my party just because someone demands ideological purity.

    I encourage you to stay with us, but we’re not leaving.

  42. 49


    Oh, and Mr. Minion.

    I was speaking to Roger, and the other posters here. You, I’ve pretty much given up on, as I really do think you’re either a Republican troll or you’re one of those types that encourages people to stay home from the polls because we’re “all alike”.

    The results are the same in either case. You discourage people from participating, and that is exactly what the Republicans want. The less people participate and vote, the easier it is for them to win.

    Looking at the tactics the Republicans have used all over the country, they boil down to “suppress the vote” and “avoid the discussion”.

    Since you use those tactics, in a forum that would primarily suppress Democratic voters (as nothing posted around here is likely to be read by Republicans unless it is copied to a right-wing blog as an example of “what Democrats think”) that leaves me with the conclusion that you are a Republican.

    I suppose that it is barely possible that you are one of the very few extreme-far-left types that think that they can somehow take control of the Democratic party, but if you ever somehow succeed at that, you will find that you’ve driven off so much of the Democratic base that what is left would be an empty shell, incapable of getting anyone elected to anything.

    If you succeed either way, Luke Esser would be very happy with your work.

    Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to work for a living.

  43. 50

    Yer Killin Me spews:


    I’m a little surprised you hadn’t heard of Obama earlier. When he was first elected he made a bit of a splash, and the press was all over him after he gave a speech at the Democratic National Convention in ’04. But before that? Yeah, nothin’.

  44. 51

    harry poon spews:

    re 48: Why would you want to call yourself a moderate? Call yourself what you are: a conservative American who no longer has a place in the Republican Party.

    I think an FDR liberal is conservative these days.

  45. 52

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @41 I did? I don’t think I’ve ever met RES in person … don’t even know who he is. Or maybe I just forgot …

  46. 54

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Regarding RES vs. John Barelli, I would simply note that before Bush came along this sort of fratricidal warfare in our camp was normal. Bush will go down in history as the man who united the Democrats.

  47. 56

    Tuor spews:

    Yer Killin Me @50,

    I probably heard the name mentioned, but in politics there is always a sort of background hum of names that come and go. I don’t claim to follow politics *super* closely, mostly I follow issues rather than people, so maybe that explains my lack or name recognition. However, I’m still left with the fact that I don’t recall hearing his name mentioned before he sprang up, like a mushroom, to announce he was forming an exploratory committee. Honestly, I find that kind of weird.

  48. 57

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Thanks for pointing out that Johnboy is a conservative and by the way Johnboy…it’s OUR party and you got nothing coming. We took it from you wannabe Publican types in the last election. Try and take it back bitch. You don’t have the stones. We’re exposing cowards and traitors like you every day.

    The real Democrats have to realize the basics here.

    1) You’re either with us or against us
    2) Everyone who isn’t on our side – is the enemy
    3) We need to start acting like the party in charge because WE ARE
    4) We need to make sure wannabe Publicans like Johnboy get the message loud and clear that we just don’t give a fuck what he thinks
    5) We need to battle the Publicans on EVERY front. No battle is too small. These people want to destroy our very way of life. If that’s not enough to get you to take a stand you deserve the Bush regime and the death and destruction it brings to the world
    6) If you’re a so-called moderate, the blood of the Iraq war is on your hands

  49. 58

    Tuor spews:


    Wow, except for #6, that sounds like a list of Rove talking points to the faithful.

    “One who fights monsters should take care not to become a monster too, for if you stare long enough into the Abyss, the Abyss stares also into you.” — Friedrich Nietzsche

  50. 59

    Yer Killin Me spews:


    Oh, I’m not doubting that you don’t remember hearing about him. I just wonder how you managed it. I mean, the guy was being hyped on the cover of Time Magazine as possible Presidential material as early as summer of 2004. Maybe I’m just hyper-sensitized for some reason, which I would find odd, because Obama is definitely my second choice (third, if Gore decides to jump in).

  51. 61

    Right ON spews:

    This is what What happens when politics becomes your god .

    When I started to hold the Democratic Party to the same standards that I held the Republican Party, support for my cause started to erode and the Left started labeling me with the same slurs the Right used … It amazes me that people who are sharp on the issues and can zero in like a laser beam on lies, misrepresentations, and political expediency when it comes to one party refuse to recognize it in their own party. Blind party loyalty is dangerous whatever side it occurs on.”