The book on Mormons

Apparently inspired by my inspired defense of online anonymity, I received a rambling piece of anonymous hate mail yesterday, that amongst other things accused me of cowardice for failing to attack the Mormon religion.

This has been a relatively common theme in comment threads and emails since 710-KIRO was acquired by Bonneville International — a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Church of Latter Day Saints. In the same way that my righty critics smirked that I wouldn’t last ten minutes on the air without blurting out the word “fuck” or some other FCC-banned profanity, there also seems to be this expectation (hope?) that I simply will not be able to restrain myself from using the airwaves to attack the religion of those who sign my paycheck.

So I thought it time to finally address this thorny theological issue.

As a non-Christian — a self-described Jewish Atheist — I do not find the Mormon religion to be any more ridiculous than “mainstream” Christian denominations. So Mormons believe that Joseph Smith found some golden plates and translated them by looking at a seer stone through a hat. So what? Catholics believe that the bread and wine of the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ. Yuck. You tell me, objectively, that one is weirder or more or less likely than the other.

And yeah, Smith preached plural marriage (though the church later rejected it.) But the Vatican mandates clerical celibacy. I didn’t do so well with one wife, but given the choice, I’m going with Smith on this one.

My point is, to nonbelievers, the specifics of all religions come across as unbelievably fantastical, even Judaism — though the reformed rabbi at the synagogue in which I was educated and bar mitzvahed taught the Torah as allegory rather than literal truth. What is important are the ethical and moral lessons these stories teach you, not whether or not Adam and Eve really were the progenitors of all humanity. (And the icky incest issues a literal reading of Genesis inevitably raises.)

Me make fun of Mormons? Why? To me they’re just another Christian sect. Indeed, in some ways, Mormons have more in common with us Jews than they do with their fellow Christians, in that historically, we’ve both been persecuted, feared, ridiculed and despised by many in “mainstream” Christianity.

So enough with this goading me on to go after the Mormons. To be honest, all you Christians just kinda look alike to me.

Comments

  1. 1

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Goldy, how about if you just go after corrupt, lying, thieving Republicans — and let it go at that.

  2. 3

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    They believe in polygamy, too. For example, Newt Gingrich was fucking his secretary while his wife lay in a hospital dying of cancer. But at least Newt had the decency to wait until his wife was dead before marrying the secretary.

  3. 5

    MikeJ spews:

    I would agree that while Mormons stay off the radar locally, you have no obligation to go after them. You might have a few choice words for Bonneville and their cutesy “KOMO homos” line to fire up the KIRO troops. At least the KIRO people did smack the Bonneville guy around in private.

  4. 6

    spews:

    When you get down to the specifics, none seem quite so silly as this one: the notion that Jesus Christ gave his life for our sins.

    What? Gave his life? He came back to life three days later!

    He didn’t give up his life… he gave up one fucking weekend!

  5. 7

    George spews:

    The past history of KIRO TV 7 is very checkered when owned by the Mormons.

    Ref: Initiative 7 in 1979, which was an attempt to repeal at the ballot the newly minted anti discrimination laws of the city to protect gay folks.
    KIRO TV was anti gay to the max, and battle ensued. The station was picked and Lloyd Cooney, station manager forever vilified for the bashing anti gay editorials on the air.

    To this day KIRO 7 is tainted in the gay community to some extent – many long memories – and KING 5 at the top of the list.

    That election, by the way, was the end of conservatives in Seattle govt. and the sweeping progressive tide brought Norm Rice, and Mike Lowry, among others, into office, I believe.

  6. 8

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    Voice of Chalk Scratching wrote: “Apparently inspired by my inspired defense of online anonymity, I received a rambling piece of anonymous hate mail yesterday, that amongst other things accused me of cowardice for failing to attack the Mormon religion.”

    This first sentence says it all about ASSWipes on the left!

  7. 9

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    To all you card carrying athiests out there (hmmm…? Communists) using the PelletHead method

    1) I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God

  8. 14

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    6) I believe every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord

  9. 15

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    7) I believe there is a great city constructed by God that will be for His believers

  10. 16

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    8) Archeology proves the Bible correct more and more each day.

  11. 18

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    10) If I am right, you all will look very stupid when He comes again.

  12. 19

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    11) You all will be crying for the rocks to fall on you to hide yourselves from His glory.

  13. 20

    Puddybud Who Left the Reservation spews:

    I wait to see what the “lefty Christians” John Barelli and GBS have to say.

  14. 21

    lpm spews:

    Mormon women can only get into their version of heaven if a man, to whom she is married, gives her his permission. And he can revoke this at any time. So, yes an outsider’s view of any religion has perspective “issues,” but that particular tenet separates moronism,oops mormonism, as fatally flawed.

  15. 23

    earl spews:

    above – wrong

    Neither can get into the Celestial Kingdom with out temple marriage. Then, there is no divorce….. for all time and eternity….heavy for the believers….and the underwear they cherish is a sign you have been thru the Temple…and the one piece nylon is very silky, lasts for years and years

    And children are celestial beings come to earth for a step in their progression to Godhood…

    Mormons seem to grasp the cosmos very well…non Bible scripture talk of ” worlds with out number stretching into the firmament”…..long before the Hubbel telescope

    Star children long before Hollywood in Space Od…..maybe Stanley Kubrik borrowed

  16. 24

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    I received a rambling piece of anonymous hate mail

    I’LL PUT ON MY RONNIE RAYGUN VOICE:

    ..PIECES OF ANONYMOUS HATE MAIL LIKE THAT SHOW WHAT WINGNUTS ARE ALL ABOUT…

    PUDDYSTUPID: THE WINGNUT WHO SENT THAT WAS TRYING TO GET GOLDY FIRED, TO SILENCE HIS VOICE. MORE LIKELY THAN NOT IT WAS YOU.

  17. 25

    spews:

    Goldy

    Like you I am an atheist. Of course, as a Jew, what I do is more important than what I believe. An Orthodox Jew can be an atheist.

    I care as little about whether Romney wears Mormon underwear as I do about whether he wears women’s panties. I do care if he believes in the literal book of the Mormon.

    Why should I care?

    I care because REAL BELIEF has real consequences. A defout catholic MUST consider abortion murder. A devout Moromon must believe that the Elders of his Church get direct revelations from God.

    Whe I voted for JFK, he had convinced me that he was NOT a “good” catholic. I know mkany people who are wonderful people, who get a lot out of their religion, but who are not full believers.

    As a scientist I also want my President to believe in science, not in mythology. This means a litmus test that conflicts with religion in areas such as evolution, global warming, vaccination, and human equality. I do not want a President who accepts the word of his Elders as God’s
    law. I do not want a President who believes that the native Americans are the ten lost tribes.

    Put another way, if you proclaim your beliefs then you need to also tell me how they would effect your governance.

  18. 26

    spews:

    21 et al,

    And the Vatican bars women from the priesthood. And Orthodox synagogues segregate the congregation by gender. And Islam… etc., etc.

    The point of this post was not to bash one religion or another, but to point out that all religions seem strange to outsiders. Mormonism might seem as strange to an Evangelical or Catholic as Catholicism seems to a Shinto.

    Hate to use such a loaded term, but I’m arguing for a little relativism.

  19. 27

    earl spews:

    Mormon joke-

    The Vatican was in a uproar – word had passed – Jesus is back, he has returned – Cardinals running, people coming to the giant square – bells ringing….

    The Pope appeared, where is he, where is he???

    No answer, where, where again??

    Old Cardinal moved to the Pope, “Poppa, HE called from the Temple in Salt Lake”……

  20. 28

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    WINGNUTS (LIKE PUDDYHYPOCRITE) ARE LOSERS AND THEIR FRUSTRATION IS GROWING MORE DESPERATE.

  21. 29

    Steve spews:

    If Mormonism is just another type of Christianity, then Christianity is still a branch of Judaism. Mormonism has a different divinely inspired book, a diffferent story, different theology, and different moral principles from any branch of traditional Christianity. When I was in high school, I asked a Mormon acquaintance why the LDS church thought that blacks were inferior. He pointed out that in Mormom theology each soul has an eternal life, including before birth, and souls must be ready to be born into bodies on earth. Blacks were those souls who voluntarily agreed to accept an inferior position on earth in order to get there before they were really ready. Only by lengthy protests in the 1970s, such as those by the UW Black Student Union against UW participation in games against BYU, did the Mormon church drop at least some of its racist theology.

  22. 30

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Clueless@27: You are soooooooooooo delusional. Frustrated by whom? you?

    waaa haaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa

    That’s a real funny.

  23. 31

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Steve: I agree with your post. The Mormon church had some radical ideals which could be distilled from good old American Democrat racism.

  24. 32

    earl spews:

    Steve – Southern Baptists are still the home of the KKK

    Mormons were anti slave – the main reason they were driven out of the border states in pre Civil War America…..That fact not often considered in their interesting massive migration to the West…

  25. 33

    spews:

    Ok, Puddybud. I was planning on sitting this one out, but I’ll put in a few bits.

    First, while we share a common faith, there are a few differences in the way we show that faith, and differences in details surrounding that faith.

    I’ve got no more problem with an honestly devout Mormon than I do with a devout member of any other faith, or with an honest agnostic. Christianity teaches that if a person is truly trying to understand the will of God and the nature of the universe (two phrases that mean the same thing) then he or she will eventually find those answers.

    Side note – I equate “agnostic” with someone that does not know whether there is or is not a God. “Atheist” is a person with an active belief that there is no God.

    And while I do believe that the word of God is inerrant, I do not believe that my understanding and interpretation of that word is equally inerrant. Far more learned Christians than I have gotten it wrong in the past. I fully expect that when standing before the Throne, I will hear “John, I love you, and appreciate your efforts, but how did you ever manage to misunderstand my Word about (fill in the blank) so badly?”

    C.S. Lewis once wrote that an honest Atheist is closer to God than a fake Christian. I agree. Jesus Himself had very unpleasant things to say about hypocrites.

    As to the argument that “If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, if I am right, you all will look very stupid when He comes again.” I would answer that a faith based on that argument is no faith at all. It’s simply hedging your bets.

  26. 34

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    Frustrated by whom?

    YOUR COMMENT IS TELLING. YOU USE THE WORD “DELUSION” AND YOU POINT THE FINGER AT EVERYONE BUT YOURSELF.

    YOU DON’T THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT MOTIVATES SOMEONE TO WRITE HATE-MAIL.

    YOUR A LOSER PUDDYBUD. YOU CHIMP IS MORE UNPOPULAR THAN YOU COULD EVER DREAM CLINTON COULD EVER BE. CHRISTINE GREGOIRE WILL BE RE-ELECTED BECAUSE LIKE YOU DINO ROSSI IS A SORE LOSER AND A TOOL. YOU PAY MODESTLY HIGHER GAS TAXES AND THOSE MONIES ARE BEING USED TO FIX ROADS, I.E. GOVERNMENT IS WORKING LIKE IT’S SUPPOSED TO.

    IT’S BECOMING MORE EVIDENT EVERY DAY THAT THE NEXT PRESIDENT WILL BE A DEMOCRAT AND WILL BE ELECTED BY GREATER THAN 50 PERCENT OF THE POPULAR VOTE.

    YET YOU COME HERE EVERYDAY AND BANG YOUR HEAD AGAINST THE WALL. TO WHAT END? FREE COUNTRY I GUESS.

  27. 35

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    If Christ is coming again it’s to pull fucking Puffybutt’s head off for ruining the image of Christianity for all America.

    I repeat, ALL you need to know about Christianity is that Puffybutt is a self-proclaimed Christian. Case closed.

  28. 36

    Harry Tuttle aka Voter Advocate spews:

    “Moreover — if I may put another strain upon you — he thinks he is the Creator’s pet. He believes the Creator is proud of him; he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes, and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to Him, and thinks He listens. Isn’t it a quaint idea? Fills his prayers with crude and bald and florid flatteries of Him, and thinks He sits and purrs over these extravagancies and enjoys them. He prays for help, and favor, and protection, every day; and does it with hopefulness and confidence, too, although no prayer of his has ever been answered. The daily affront, the daily defeat, do not discourage him, he goes on praying just the same. There is something almost fine about this perseverance. I must put one more strain upon you: he thinks he is going to heaven!”

    Mark Twain – Satan’s First Letter, Letters from Earth

  29. 37

    Harry Tuttle aka Voter Advocate spews:

    The Mormons, of course, take their expected trip to Heaven to a further, more insane, height. When they get there, they are to be reunited with their families and endure eternity with them. Astounding! A better reason for avoiding the place is hard to imagine. Perpetual Thanksgivings with one’s right wing cousins.

    Not satisfied with their expected settlements, organized Mormonism works in Salt Lake to highjack other families, ones never involved with Moroni’s curse, as members of an expansive celestial settlement. Making up for lost millenia of sparse population growth in the etherial colony, I suppose.

  30. 38

    Rujax! spews:

    Pee-Dookie.

    The dumbshit religionist of the “LOOK,LOOK,SEE,SEE” compulsion.

    Hey, Asshat…go do the “Lord’s” work with Fred Phelps or something.

    Better yet…don’t go. It’s really too entertaining.

  31. 39

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    John Barelli:

    I am not hedging my bets. I DON’T BET ON GOD. I have always been the one swimming up stream proclaiming in the polluted swamp called ASSWipes!

    BTW it’s your political friends who pooh pooh the Son of God and God himself.

    I am glad you accept someday you will stand before the fiery throne of God on that Sapphire stone and answer to your deeds. I hope your name is found in the Lamb’s Book of Life. I hope your sins are blotted out by the precious blood of Jesus. I hope the same for me too.

  32. 40

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Clueless@33: Ahhhhh yes, that hatred comes through again.

    Why do you hate yourself so? I thought this was a thread about Mormonism? So where did all that vile bile come from. Oh yeah, another AssFacia attack!

    Didn’t Voice of Chalk Scratching talk about thread hijacking in another post? So you are spewing your hate against Mitt Romney? You are as bad as PelletHead.

    Rush is on Clueless. Turn him on and listen!

  33. 41

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    RudejackASS: I don’t support Fred Phelps, Jimmy Swaggart, James Dobson, Pat Robertson, or Jerry Falwell, Oral Roberts, Ernest Ainsley, Benny Hinn or any of them like them.

    You can stop trying to tie that albatross from around my neck.

    Search the ‘Wipes archives and see where I have EVER varied from that theme.

    Go on… I can wait.

    Still Stupid and one of the original dull knives in the drawer.

  34. 42

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Gloomy Gus Still Stupid: Yes, you don’t like me. I wear that as a badge of honor.

    But, it’s readily apparent you are the poster child for today’s Democratic Party. The Democratic Party, which by the way said:

    http://www.abcnews.go.com/Poli.....id=3165636

    “House Democrats are suddenly balking at the tough lobbying reforms they touted to voters last fall as a reason for putting them in charge of Congress.

    Now that they are running things, many Democrats want to keep the big campaign donations and lavish parties that lobbyists put together for them. They’re also having second thoughts about having to wait an extra year before they can become high-paid lobbyists themselves should they retire or be defeated at the polls.

    The chief stumbling block in the House centers on whether to require disclosures of a fundraising practice called bundling. It involves lobbyists soliciting and collecting campaign donations from other people and then presenting them in one package to the targeted candidate.”

    I called it last fall and Puddy is still right.

  35. 43

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    BTW Gloomy Gus Still Stupid: I turned the other cheek many times on your bile. Since I only have four cheeks, my RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION took over.

    You are the poster child for the “new” Democratic Party. Many of your sayings are at the RNC. I just hope they have the cojones to use them.

    I can just see it now in a debate with the world’s smartest woman being asked

    Mrs Clinton: Do you believe… and watch her face blanch!

    Keep up the great work Gloomy Gus Still Stupid.

  36. 44

    Windowdog spews:

    Wow… this thread went to wacko pretty damn fast.

    Everyone who isn’t attempting satire really needs to spend time breathing into a paper bag.

    And what the hell does this have to do with Chinese wheat gluten anyways?

  37. 45

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Harry Tuttle: If you believe in the Bible, what does it say about those resurrected in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4? What does it say about the second resurrection in Revelation?

    What does the word forever mean?

    Now I don’t believe in Mormonism or Moroni. But I can’t say who God will find acceptable in His sight. His thoughts are way above our thoughts!

  38. 46

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Let me make this perfectly clear Puffybutt – fuck you and your fake religion. And here’s more good news, one of your big wigs is FINALLY gonna find out God doesn’t like Publicans.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18679412/

    And Puffybutt – I have sent many of your posts to the DNC and I KNOW they have the courage to use them. You’re the best thing that ever happened to Democrats. People see how bat shit crazy you right wing traitors are and they get motivated. Keep up the good work, but I am STILL gonna fuck your ugly wife in her ass.

  39. 47

    Harry Tuttle aka Voter Advocate spews:

    44. Who said I believe in the Bible? I don’t even believe in your existence, much less that of your god.

  40. 48

    Harry Tuttle aka Voter Advocate spews:

    But, I do believe that a bunch of guys got together over a number of centuries to write down the fable known as the Bible, and it exists.

  41. 49

    spews:

    Why go after the Mormon’s? They really haven’t given any provocation for an attack. Why attack someone without provocation. Oh, that is right, the people that are calling out the attack dogs are the same type of thinkers that thought Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.

    If there is not an issue to be brought up then just let it be.

  42. 50

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Chris: Tell that to Al Not-so-Sharpton. He attacked Mitt Romney and nary a peep from your peeps!

  43. 51

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Why are all Christians liars? Witness Puffybutt’s lie about Sharpton. Sharpton said no such thing, although personally, I’d bet Romney is a fake – not because he’s a Mormon but because he’s a Publican.

    BREAKING GOOD NEWS!

    The world is less one more chickenhawk, hypocrite hater of freedom – That piece of shit Falwel kicked the bucket! YEA!

  44. 52

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Gloomy Gus Still Stupid: Nothing you say is ever clear. It all psychobabble from your mouth. You cut and paste from a few web sites because you can’t create an intelligent thought.

    Oh BTW GGSS: I don’t do white guys! Especially STUPID white guys!

  45. 53

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    This is why GGSS is GGSS:

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITI.....index.html

    “During a debate on religion and politics at the New York Public Library with atheist author Christopher Hitchens, Sharpton said, “As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so don’t worry about that. That’s a temporary situation.”

    Then he claims it was taken out of context when it was taped? Good try GGSS!

  46. 54

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Congress Approval Down to 29%; Bush Approval Steady at 33%

    Good job Moonbat!s. They really like how you are “funding” the troops!

  47. 56

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    During a debate on religion and politics at the New York Public Library with atheist author Christopher Hitchens, Sharpton said, “As for the one Mormon running for office, those that really believe in God will defeat him anyway, so don’t worry about that. That’s a temporary situation.”

  48. 57

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    I can’t believe the Voice of Chalk Scratching filter hates links from the Clinton News Network!

  49. 58

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GGSS: Where is your return comment on my “lie” about Not-So-Sharpton? He said it, just like Tawanna Brawley had excrement put all over her body too.

  50. 59

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Not that you care one bit about facts Puffybutt, and usually I am not interested in doing your research for you, but just this once, because both your sister and your wife sucked my dick last night, and because I am in a good mood now that Jerry kicked the bucket, here’s a link…

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....02359.html

    Now go find someone who can read to translate it for you.

  51. 60

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    By the way, while I know Sharpton’s comments were taken out of context, I wish he had said them. The world needs to know that this liar Romney wants to flip-flop his way to the White House and that he’s part of a cult. I hope the Publicans are stooopid enough to nominate him – but probably even THEY aren’t that stoooopid.

  52. 61

    westello spews:

    Mormans. I agree with Goldy; just as strange as any other religion. Three levels of heaven and you have to be extra good to get to see Jesus? check. Sacred undergarments? check. No one but a Morman at your wedding? Check. Whatever. Every religion believes that everyone else is going to burn in hell for not believing in their religion so basically Romney, if he’s a good Morman, believes it as well.

    I had to laugh when Mitt Romney and his five (!) sons all believe have a great hawk view and Romeny believes defending the US to be a top priority and yet…none of them has ever served. I love these Republicans and their tough guy talk and then, nope, none served.

    Jerry Falwell died today. Any bets on where he ended up?

  53. 62

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    Now THIS is funny – regarding the Publican debate tonight

    “Underscoring the dominant issues, Americans Against Escalation in Iraq and the South Carolina Young Democrats sponsored a 20-foot mobile billboard to circle the debate site, bearing the phrases: “Republicans, Mission Accomplished?”” HE HE!

  54. 64

    earl spews:

    #58 – sorry – no hell in Mormonism

    Did I miss the draft – it is a bit droll to accuse and create an obligation to serve which is not universal.

    Mormon baiting is fun to watch…..kind mean and assholish.

    Some virility issues here on this blog?

  55. 65

    GBS spews:

    Puddybud,

    The more I read about our Founding Fathers, the more I look at the state of the world with all its hate inspired by religious zealots, the more I find myself becoming a Diest like Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Paine, et al.

    The God of Nature created the universe and the earth. The mythology of a God descending from the Heavens to mate with a mortal women smacks strikingly familiar to Greek and Roman mythology that predates Christianity.

    I prefer to believe in things that don’t require a leap of “faith” to believe in them. Like a Great Flood. Do you really believe that some old guy built a HUGE ark then collected one male and one female of every kind and kept them all on this boat?

    Examining the size of the ark in the bible (cubits) it is impossible to put that many animals on a boat that size. Let along retain all the different food & water that would be required to keep them all alive for 40 days.

    A woman getting pregnant without intercourse? Puh-lease. Some guy getting nailed to a cross, left to die, buried in a cave, 7 days later he arises from dead, pushes a giant boulder and then floats up into the clouds in the sky body and all???

    The problem with the 2nd coming of Chirst, is that the guy is dead therefore won’t be coming back — EVER. Besides the obvious thing that the guy is dead, the other problem is that if someone started to proclaim they are Jesus Christ and they have returned from the Kingdom of Heaven, the guy would be in the psycho ward pronto.

    I haven’t lost my faith in a supreme being as my Creator and the God of Nature, but organized religions such as Christianity, Judisam, Islam, Hindus, Buddaism are all based on localized myths and the requirement that you believe in the unbelievable.

    GBS

  56. 66

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    No draft earl – just simple common sense. If you’re a hawk and you think this war is the “most important conflict of our time” as Monkeyface Bush says, then your decision to support the war by letting others fight in your place makes you out to be a hypocrite. Period. Just like your chickenshit, chickenhawk pal Romney. You know, the guy who was for abortion when he ran for Governor in a liberal state and now who’s against it running in a conservative primary.

    And yes there are virility issues on this blog and they’re all yours.

  57. 67

    RightEqualsStupid spews:

    I think we should declare today a national holiday to celebrate the death of that fraud Jerry Falwel!

  58. 68

    spews:

    Who really gives a _________ about mormons or any other religious group!!?? God was here long before religion or religious denominations. For you agnostics, atheists, or whatever you call yourselves during the absense of purpose in your misearable lives…you need to get over yourselves.

    Keep the faith Puddybud and others!!!!

  59. 70

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GGSS: How can something said by Not-So-Sharpton be taken out of context?

    Those were his words, and he didn’t eat them yet! Yes fools such as yourself give him a pass!

    Not me. I ain’t no fool!

  60. 71

    David in Wedgwood spews:

    Goldy,
    There is no “Reformed” branch of Judaism. It is Reform Judaism…very different. People that attend a Reform synagogue have not committed any crime to which they have been rehabilitated.
    Thanks,
    David

  61. 72

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @66 I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, there’s a long-standing convention against dissing the dead. As you say, his ass belongs to God now, so let Her deal with it. On the other hand, I don’t want to assist the people who constantly bray about “personal responsibility” in dodging personal responsibility for what they did in this life. Just because Hitler is dead doesn’t mean we shouldn’t speak ill of him. Falwell was an evil influence in American society, and even though he has now gone to his reward (or just desserts, as the case may be), doesn’t mean we should sweep his ignoble place in American history under the rug.

  62. 73

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Someone should check the weather reports to find out if any lightning bolts were reported in his area this morning.

  63. 74

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GBS blogged: “A woman getting pregnant without intercourse? Puh-lease. Some guy getting nailed to a cross, left to die, buried in a cave, 7 days later he arises from dead, pushes a giant boulder and then floats up into the clouds in the sky body and all???”

    So when Joseph checked her out and the Angel of the Lord told him to stay with her is fiction?

    So when Jesus rises on the 3rd day you disbelieve?

    So when an angel excelling in strength lands at the tomb and rolls away the stone and sits on it scaring all the Roman guards there you disbelieve?

    Wow…!

  64. 75

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    PelletHead: You said you had chores. Yeah right, I bet the MRS is slaving away while you are on your fat ass!

  65. 76

    spews:

    “Chris: Tell that to Al Not-so-Sharpton. He attacked Mitt Romney and nary a peep from your peeps!”

    Al Sharpton is a media whore that will comment on any little thing that will get him on the news. His comments are marginalized, and used for sound bites. He in no way represents any part of a population other than himself. That is why his comments go unremarked on. They don’t even deserve remarks.

    In my mind Al Sharpton and Rush Limbaugh are on the same playing field.

  66. 77

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    PacMan: Good to see you online. I was worried I was the only standard bearer here.

  67. 80

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GGSS#64: You can’t be celebrating! You are a God-hating Moonbat!

  68. 81

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    Puddybud @ 71:

    Yes I disbelieve those events are true. Just like many of our Founding Fathers.

    If you have proof to the contrary I’ll gladly consider changing my mind.

    However, it must be quantifiable proof. Do you have it?

  69. 82

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    DNA test frees man convicted of 2 child slayings
    New Jersey an exonerated after 22 years behind bars

    ELIZABETH, N.J. – A judge threw out convictions Tuesday against a man who served more than two decades in prison for the rape and murder of two children after a DNA test showed a neighbor may have committed the crimes.

    This is the reason I no longer support the death penalty for any reason. When the State convicts the wrong person and executes them there is no remedy for justice. While this man spent 22 years of his life in prison, at least he can against taste freedom.

    This is something the “eye-for-an-eye” right wing Christian zealots believe in and not justice. Ironically, the justification for revenge killing is what Islam believes in, too.

    Two different religions, but at their core principles each believes they are morally superior to the other and that God is on their side giving them justification to commit murder.

    This is why I reject all forms of organized religion.

  70. 83

    Rujax! spews:

    PuddingBrain…

    You are STILL a bigoted, mind-numbingly moronic religionist asshole.

    You STILL want to impose your infantile beliefs on the rest of the unwilling population…which somehow makes you different from the christianists you listed???

    You’re funny.

    A real comedian.

  71. 85

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    Hey, “The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush” @ 71.

    Your proof is in your existence but I know this will not be enough for you so let’s explore a few scientific facts outside the Bible that supports Christ’s existence. We’re start with the book titled “Evidence That Demands A Verdict”, Vol. I by Josh McDowell. Josh McDowell provides scholarly, intelligent, well-grounded answers regarding the validity of the Bible. These answers are backed by solid evidence that will satisfy anyone who is willing to honestly weight it. Now, this will only benefit you if you read it. Don’t be afraid of what you discover. It’s not designed to convince you but to simply show concrete, scientific evidence of Christ’s existence.

    This book looks at why the Bible can be trusted, including its historical reliability and accuracy. McDowell explains who Jesus is, and why the New Testament record of his personality and ministry is the best and most authentic source available. He also explains how several worldviews have attempted to discredit Christianity, particularly through the methods of biblical, form, and textual criticism. McDowell also examines several philosophical systems, including skepticism, agnosticism, and mysticism, and offers a cogent defense of the idea and reality of miracles.

    You will probably never find any concrete evidence such as a skull, or blood sample, or any human artifact which one can extract DNA. So if this is what you’re looking for then as a christian please accept my apologies your life in the darkness. However, if you read with an open mind you will be enlightened!

    McDowell but is but once suggestive source of reading which proves His existence. If you are a student of Greek Mythology you may see a stark correlation of the life of Christ and mythology. Don’t be fooled. Mythology came much later and provided an artificial belief system designed to support a paganistic society who thought mythology would save them from what was perceived to be a ‘heartless God’ and a self righteous Jesus.

    The Helenistic Jews were able to right the wrong in this philosophy and set the society back on the right track. My suggestion to you and others…..Stop looking for past evidence and accept the reality which surrounds you!

  72. 86

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    Hey, Rujax @ 37
    Lighten up man! Let’s see you rise from the dead in three days!!

  73. 87

    spews:

    Puddybud

    You refuse to be associated with Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc… All solid right wing Republicans, and very influential in the Republican party that you support, all claiming to represent the Christian faith that you also claim to represent, and all with political philosophies and agendas that look remarkably like yours.

    Then you insist on linking my beliefs with the far left end of the Democratic party, implying that somehow my faith is tarnished by my association with them, despite the fact that you have shown very little understanding of what the actual policies of the Democratic party really are.

    Puddybud, Jesus had really unpleasant things to say about hypocrisy. I’m not going to quote the verses, as you know them as well as I do. Think about it.

    Oh, and while you’re thinking on that, also consider how effective you’re being at keeping any non-Christian here away from dialog with any Christian.

    Quite frankly, angry-sounding Christians preaching at me kept me from even considering becoming a Christian for many years. I thought that all Christians sounded and acted the way you do here, and wanted nothing to do with them. How many folks here have you pushed just a bit further away? How many stumbling blocks have you created?

    Have you shown your posts to your Pastor? Would you be willing to?

    I’m not always as polite, nor as forgiving as I should be, but if any of my posts were printed in the church bulletin, I could live with it. Could you?

    And PacMan. I’m afraid that your post will fall primarily on deaf ears here, primarily for the reasons shown above. Unfortunately, the face of Christianity around here has primarily been that of Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell and Puddybud.

    Many of the regular Democratic posters here are Christian, but our voices tend to be drowned out by angry preaching coming from the right.

    Preaching love while showing hatred doesn’t work very well.

  74. 88

    Rujax! spews:

    Let’s see YOU do it, dumbass.

    Let’s see fucking Falwell do it.

    BTW-Did you REALLY write that Greek Mythology post-dates Christ?

    You’re not THAT stupid…are you?

  75. 89

    spews:

    “This is something the “eye-for-an-eye” right wing Christian zealots believe in and not justice. Ironically, the justification for revenge killing is what Islam believes in, too.

    Two different religions, but at their core principles each believes they are morally superior to the other and that God is on their side giving them justification to commit murder.”

    Well, remembering that the rules regarding punishment for various crimes were given at a time when the norm was a life for an eye, and a whole clan for a life, restricting retribution to something akin to equality was a big step in the right direction.

    You should also realize that most of the world has yet to get up to the “eye for an eye” level. Despite pretty clear condemnation from both of the religions you speak of, many people are still anxious to wreak vengeance upon the slightest perceived injustice. This is true of people with and without a religious faith.

  76. 90

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    John,

    I think you missed my point, the desire for revenge is human nature. The bigger point is the ‘moral superiority’ one group thinks they have over the other as justification to be inhumane to the other.

    This moral superiority is borne out of relgious ideology.

  77. 91

    Rujax! spews:

    Here Ya Go “Pac-Man” you smug, supercillious, gullible ass:

    “Josh McDowell’s book Evidence That Demands a Verdict has been variously described as an authoritative defense of Christianity and a masterpiece of Christian apologetics, which provides scholarly, intelligent, well-grounded answers to questions about the Christian faith. In the summer of 1999, my brother, a fundamentalist Christian, invited me to engage in an email discussion of the historical reliability of the New Testament, specifically focusing on McDowell’s defense of NT historicity. As a result, I began a six-month investigation of McDowell’s Chapter 4, entitled “The reliability of the Bible”.

    By checking McDowell’s sources and consulting works of NT scholars, I was eventually able to discover that much of what McDowell presents is untrustworthy, misleading or simply incorrect. In the ensuing six months, my brother and I engaged in detailed email discussions in which we debated the McDowell’s evidence. I give below a transcript of our discussions. My hope is that the detailed evidence presented here will give both Christians and non-Christians ammunition to help expose and rebut the distortions and falsehoods being promulgated by McDowell and other like-minded fundamentalists.”

    http://users.iems.northwestern.....troduction

  78. 92

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    PacMan:

    I don’t personally know you very well, so honesty dictates that I cannot say with any certainty that you are truly prepared to enter into this debate with me.

    However, since you volunteered let the exchange of honest and civil dissent begin and last over the course of several weeks.

    The first order of business is to cast aside your references to the Evidence That Demands A Verdict.

    The debate must begin and end with the Bible. Why?

    Because it is the Alpha and the Omega of Christianity for this one simple reason: for believers it is the word of the Lord. Which is infallible. Correct?

  79. 93

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    PacMan:

    I have to go now, but I’ll check back with you tomorrow on this thread.

    I’m am looking forward to your answer to my question at 88.

    You do realize it is critical to your arguement of Christianity, right?

  80. 94

    spews:

    The blood of:

    Look again. Yes, religion has been used as an excuse for feelings of superiority and for discrimination against others. So has sex, race, height, weight, family, education, nationality, and probably eye color.

    People like to feel superior to others, and will find any excuse to do so.

    Religions, however, have often attempted to place limits on those feelings and actions. The “eye for an eye” rule is an excellent example of that.

    And while we have been given rules that supercede that one, telling us to act with mercy, the fact is that if we could get people to even live up to the “eye for an eye” rule, it would be a big step forward.

  81. 95

    Rujax! spews:

    Barelli-

    Does a definition of moral conduct really need to be more complicated that the “Golden Rule”?

  82. 96

    YOS LIB BRO spews:

    Why do you hate yourself so?

    ONE COULD ASK THE SAME OF YOU. YOU’RE DESPERATE PUDDYBUD. DESPERATE TO PROVE YOUR SUPERIORITY. BUT YOU’VE BEEN LOSING SINCE YOU GOT HERE. YOU WANT TO GLOAT BUT YOU’VE BEEN GIVEN LITTLE TO NO OPPORTUNITY BECAUSE HISTORY HAS TURNED AGAINST YOUR IDEOLOGY AND YOU’VE BEEN IN DENIAL.

    THE EVIDENCE:

    ELECTION CONTEST: LOST
    I-912 (REVENGE OF THE WINGNUTS): LOST
    BET WITH GBS: LOST (LIKE PULLING TEETH FOR YOU TO HONOR IT)
    NOV 2006 ELECTION: LOST (BIG TIME)

    NOW YOUR REPUBLICAN PARTY IS SINKING UNDER THE WEIGHT OF ITS CORRUPTION AND THE PEOPLE’S REJECTION OF ITS EXTREMIST AGENDA.

    WELL I GOT TO HAND IT TO YOU. YOU REALLY SEEM TO WANT TO GO DOWN WITH THIS LEAKY BOAT.

  83. 97

    Tree Frog Farmer spews:

    It has been suggested that the PenUltimate Sin is imposing your vision of Hell on another.
    It has been suggested that the Ultimate Sin is imposing
    your visioon of Heaven on another.

  84. 98

    spews:

    Rujax:

    No.

    The ultimate code of Christian conduct towards others is what we call the “golden rule”. It’s repeated in several different ways.

    “Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those that sin against us”

    “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    “Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly with God.”

    “the only obligation is to love one another. Whoever has done this has obeyed the law. The commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery; do not commit murder; do not steal; do not desire what belongs to someone else’ – all these, and any other besides, are summed up in the one command, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself’. If you love someone you will never do him wrong; to love, then, is to obey the whole Law”

    (I’ll spare you the book and verse numbers. If you’re already Christian, you know these verses. If not, then the fact that they came from a particular section of the Bible is meaningless to you.)

    None of these is obscure or difficult to understand. As Christians, we believe that these are commands directly from God. We are specifically told that our own sins will not be forgiven unless we manage to forgive others.

    The obvious next question is, “so why can’t we manage to do it?”

    Sorry, but I don’t have an answer for that one.

  85. 99

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    Hey “The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush” @87

    I don’t think I need any preparation for a debate with you on this subject. It is obvious that your conclusion support you viewpoint and any debate would only lead you further into darkness. The area of religion or religious beliefs is a personal endeavor which leads people in many directions and various conclusions based on their already existing viewpoints or biases.
    Since you took the comment so personally I can only conclude that I hit a nerve of religious uncertainty in you. I mean no offense to you or your family when I comment that what you concluded during your debate with your brother means little to me and will have no impact whatsoever on either my standard of living, my beliefs, or my very own religious preference. So spare me the challenge for a debate however, if it gives you a personal sense of intellectual achievement then my mind is open for your comments on either McDowell and any other author. In fact let’s start with the book titled “The Life and Times of Jesus The Messiah” by Alfred Edersheim.

    Are you familiar with this book or its author? If not, it chronicles the biblical timeline of the early beginnings of Chrisianity with highlights on the great Jewish Dispersions to the east and west after the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem. As you may or may not be aware the bible itself was not formalized until years after this event. If your total argument is going to be on McDowel’s 4th chapter then may I suggest we end this discussion with this response and a final rebuttal from you.

    Don’t misunderstand me, While I quoted McDowel, he is not my inspiration and I certainly would not spend as must time as you apparantly did on his writings. There are distinctive flaws in his assumptions but on the other hand, were you able to provide as much hard facts to refute his findings as he provided to support them? Probably not, I will wager that your conclusions are merely administrative.

    Also @ 88 “The debate must begin and end with the Bible. Why?” “Because it is the Alpha and the Omega of Christianity for this one simple reason: for believers it is the word of the Lord. Which is infallible. Correct?”…………..”You do realize it is critical to your arguement of Christianity, right?”

    I must dissagree. This comment(?) is the basis for your rebuttal which quite frankly I did not say in my note and therefore do not feel a need to defend in my response. The bible itself is but a summary of the events Christians deemed valuable for the support of their beliefs. The actual activities which lead to the either the Hellenists or the Hebrew writtings started years before the bible itself was cannonized and considered a valuable document of christian beliefs. Therefore, any viable discussions on this subject must begin before the actual writings of the most read book of all times…Why?

    Starting your debate on such a minute point is irrelevant to intellectual comprehension because there are many books not included in the Bible which must be considered which forms the basis of Christian beliefs. Also, while the word of God in infallible the bible has various translations which no longer represent its original intents and/or teachings. Lets not forget that the bible is a book of inspirations, not a book of chronological facts. This is not to say that the events did not happen as described in the Bible. It was inspired by God but translated by man and therefore any christian who accepts all writings of certain translations will forever find themselves in the dark. In closing I will offer little recogniton to your question by saying while the word of God in infallible, the translations has faults and I would suggest that you not spend any long intensive debates on the Bible without understanding its origins.

    Good luck and good night!

  86. 101

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    Rujax! @ 84 “You’re not THAT stupid…are you?”

    No, but apparently you are!

    Also, I see no need for the profane response but sinse I apparently hit a nerve then I will accept your frustrations in any form you wish to demonstrate them.

    I did not suggest or say, or give factual evidence that greek mythology predated the bible, per se! Read my comment carefully which states:

    “Don’t be fooled. Mythology came much later and provided an artificial belief system designed to support a paganistic society who thought mythology would save them from what was perceived to be a ‘heartless God’ and a self righteous Jesus.”

    Now, allow me to get technical on the subject although I did not feel a need to be technical. When we say “Bible” we’re including both the New and Old Testaments” and all the books within each respectively,right?!

    To understand my comment you must seperate the two with historical comprehension.

    Now to answer your question, and don’t be too shocked with my response….make sure you’re sitting down. Greek Mythology does predate the Bible…..aka, the New Testament Bible…….BUT it DOES NOT predate the Old Testament Bible or any of the original stories in Genesis to Malachi.

    Therefore, when I made the comment that “Mythology came much later” I was referencing the transistions period after the canonization of the Old Testament which as you know includes the books of Genesis to Malachi. Although I’ve concluded from studies that the mythology really began 40 – 70 years after the exodus and was imbedded into the society way before the writings of the New Testament which is why it took the helenistic jews much longer to convince the greeks of the concept of “One God”. This is the reason for my other comment “The Helenistic Jews were able to right the wrong in this philosophy and set the society back on the right track”

    OK, I’ve said enough. We’ll talk later.

    Good nigh and good luck!

  87. 103

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    Rujax! @ 96
    I see no need to get personal pal! I was simply responding to your comments. :)

  88. 104

    Rujax! spews:

    You know, Paccy…Puddy…

    It’s not that I don’t like you guys…I just detest your religionist christofascism.

    Nothing personal.

  89. 106

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GBS wrote: The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush says:

    DNA test frees man convicted of 2 child slayings
    New Jersey an exonerated after 22 years behind bars

    You should check your facts like I tell PelletHead.

    “Union County, NJ

    2006 elections: elected re-elected Democrat Bob Menendez over Thomas Kean Jr., with 53% of the ballot.

    Presidential politics: Union County voted Democratic in the last two presidential elections. According to unofficial vote totals for 2004, Bush received 77,621 votes and Kerry received 112,542 votes.

    In the November 2000 race, Union County strongly supported Al Gore. Countywide, 68,554 people voted for Bush and 112,003 voted for Gore. Nader received 4,945 votes.

    In the November 2000 election, Union County strongly supported Al Gore. Countywide, 68,554 people voted for Bush and 112,003 voted for Gore. Nader received 4,945 votes.”

    I think Union County NJ where Elizabeth NJ had a Moonbat! prosecutor making points for the working class!

    GBS, you should be ashamed, stooping to the gutter politics of PelletHead.

  90. 107

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Rujax!: May I suggest you read Rick Warren’s Purpose Driven Life.

    There are many pearls of wisdom you can acquire. Maybe after you read purpose driven life you will have purpose and the abject negativity will disappear.

    I won’t bore you with too much except to say You were not an accident because you were in God’s care before you were born.

    I’m sure John Barelli knows that verse.

    But PacMan and I do wonder what drives you in your life. I see hatred, vile blood red hatred in every post! Don’t you realize living on His purpose is the path to peace.

    I’m sure John Barelli knows that verse.

    Good morning Rujax!

  91. 108

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    And Rujax! your politicofascism is just as detestable to me as you “claim” I have christofascism.

    Unfortunately when PacMan, John and I show the Bible is real you and others have a cow.

    Let me suggest another oldie but goodie.

    The Search for Truth by J L Shuler. No not the Robert L Shuler family! In it you’ll learn about the woman world ruler prophesied in the Bible in Revelation! Golly I wonder who that could be. The book was published in 1979.

  92. 109

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    Clueless@92: I don’t need to prove superiority to you. Your comment bringing it up…

    So you continue to bring up past voting. That gets you here.

    Now the American people are seeing the Donkocraps for what they are; a bunch of lying power hungry people who are breaking every campaign pledge made to get elected their approval rating has dropped from 41% to 29%.

  93. 110

    spews:

    Puddybud

    While I actually do understand, and even commend the spirit in which you make many of your posts, I should point out something very important to you.

    That type of proselytizing doesn’t work, and often erects a barrier that moves people further from God.

    This would be far better done off-line, and once again, I suggest you contact me (use an anonymous e-mail address if you wish) so that we might have a conversation about it, but I’ll try to put some of it here, while sticking at least reasonably close to the topic.

    Many Christians experience God in such a powerful way that we have difficulty understanding how non-Christians can fail to see Him. It’s akin to failing to see the elephant in the living room. So, we point at the “elephant” and tell people that He expects certain things, and provides certain things.

    Puddybud, they really don’t see that “elephant”, so any further discussion falls on deaf ears. Because what we see is so obvious, it is difficult to understand how it could be missed, so our first impulse is to believe that they really do see, but simply act as if they do not. (Compounded, of course, by the fact that in some cases that is true, but we have no way of knowing which is which.)

    The most effective form of proselytizing I know of is to simply encourage people to want the truth. I don’t try to tell them what it is. I don’t make any claim that I have any greater claim on God than they do. Unless I am with someone that also prays, I don’t go through any motions or rituals that would show that I am praying.

    This allows me to pray with Muslims, Hindus, Mormons and even atheists. I can honestly pray that we all find truth, and they can usually agree. Even the atheists have a difficult time disagreeing with that prayer.

    Then trust God to handle the rest. Once someone really wants the truth, we need to have faith that God is powerful enough to show them far better than we can.

    If not, then our words are false and our faith is in vain.

  94. 111

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    Puddybud @ 102:

    HUH?

    Check what facts? My point is, regardless of election outcomes, the prosecution of innocent citizens and committing them to death in the name of justice is the wrong course of action. Because, if the state is wrong, as in this case and many others, there is no way to bring back the innocent citzen from the grave.

    Did I go over your head? Sorry.

  95. 112

    spews:

    Off topic, but answering another of your posts, you berated GBS for pointing out one reason for his opposition to the death penalty by saying that it was a Democrat that held the position of prosecutor.

    Puddybud, I doubt that GBS cares one whit about the party that the prosecutor belongs to.

    As a general rule, Democrats tend to oppose the death penalty more often than Republicans, but there are enough exceptions on both sides to make that a pretty flimsy rule.

    It might interest you to know that many here do not follow the Democratic version of President Reagan’s “eleventh commandment”. I’m perfectly willing to criticize a fellow Democrat, and would be willing to bet that GBS is as well.

    Yes, it makes for a messy party, with lots of discussion, some argument and occasional schisms. It is both a weakness and a strength, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    “I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat!” - Will Rogers

  96. 113

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    PacMan:

    I have a long screen name so if it’s easier for you, you can just refer to me as GBS.

    I think you misunderstanding me so let me go back and refram my comments. When I said I don’t know you that well and I don’t know if you’re prepared to enter into a debate with me; means just that. Normally, I won’t waste my time debating with someone if I’m confident they don’t know the subject well enough. It would be a waste of my time and yours. So what I said, what I mean is that I don’t know if you know your material well enough, but I’m willing to engage you. In the next sentence I said “let the exchange of honest and civil dissent begin. . .

    You, shut down the opportunity for debate and hurled the insult by opening with this line; “I don’t think I need any preparation for a debate with you on this subject. It is obvious that your conclusion support you viewpoint and any debate would only lead you further into darkness.

    Why would debate lead me further into darkenss? Why would you even take that position? What purpose does it serve, other than to cast red herrings into the debate, to condem me to darkenss?

    None.

    What it really does, from the beginning, is to allow you the escape route if you begin to lose the debate that “I’m the one who is lost in the darkness.”

    Instead, your position should be that your arguement would bring me out of the darkness and into the light of righteouness.

    You did not hit a nerve with me, nor did I take anything “personally.” Again, these are tactics to avoid honest debate, as I’m wasting pixels trying to explain it; again I said let honest and civil debate begin? Remember?

    I have to go now, but I thought I should allow you the opportunity to reevaluate your opening thoughts and comments to see if you’re interested in exchanging facts and ideas or barbs.

    GBS

  97. 114

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GBS@111: What? You started blaming this action on Christians.

    Your words: “This is something the “eye-for-an-eye” right wing Christian zealots believe in and not justice.”

    ALL I DID WAS TO SUGGEST THE INJUSTICE AND INDIGNATION SUFFERED BY THIS POOR MAN WAS DELIVERED BY A LEFTY. JUST LIKE RUBIN ‘HURRICANE’ CARTER HAD HIS INJUSTICE DONE TO HIM FROM A LEFTY PROSECUTOR.

    Amazing discourse GBS. I am shocked and amazed!

  98. 115

    GBS spews:

    John @ 112:

    Thanks for “gettng it.” I used to believe in the death penalty. In fact, I used to think it didn’t go far enough. Not only murderers, but rapist, child molesters and kidnappers should get the death penaly, too.

    But I came to the realization that as good as our justice system is, it has flaws. And while taking the freedom and liberties away from an innocent person, it is even a greater miscarriage of justice when we, The People, The State, takes away an innocent life.

    I almost agreed with you 100% except this one passage: “Yes, it makes for a messy party, with lots of discussion, some argument and occasional schisms. It is both a weakness and a strength, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

    I don’t view it as a weakness, but rather a pillar of strength, and so too, did our Founding Fathers. Debate and disention and proving your ideas in the arena of ideas is exactly how Madison, Jefferson, Franklin, Washington et al created our great nation.

    I firmly believe they have rolled in their graves over the thought limiting ideas of Ronald Reagan. That 11th commandment is definetly a pre 1776 mindset.

  99. 116

    GBS spews:

    Puddybud @ 114:

    You’re right. I’ll yeild to your line of reasoning. I didn’t present myself well.

    Feel better?

  100. 117

    GBS spews:

    PacMan:

    I’m not Rujax. You’re confusing his posts with mine. Sorry, I didn’t catch that at first. ON this thread I’m glossing over most other posters to stay engaged with you on the debate and not stray off topic too much.

    Thanks,
    GBS

  101. 118

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    John@112: As most people in prisons and penitentiaries are my people, I have a hard time with this one. My problem is we as a nation are easy with prisoners who do heinous crimes.

    I said this before you arrived here. It is not eye-for-an-eye. Why did God create sanctuary cities in Israel? My argument is we need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt then execute the guilty. How do you prove guilt? Well first look at all cases where DNA evidence is available. Start with those cases and dispense with them. Verify the DNA evidence has not been tampered with. Once verification occurs, test the DNA. Validate the testing as we know about cooked tests. If guilty see ya. This reduces the prison and penitentiary populations.

    Next look at the long term death row cases. Deal with them. Look at high year felonies. Deal with them.

    I also say we need to figure out why the kids do crime. Your side has been in charge of the cities since the 60s. You had congressional control until 94. That’s 30 years and nothing was done for my people in the inner city. No jobs, no forward thinking, no grounding. What was taught in school? Do you own thing “don’t worry be happy!” I know I grew up in tenements, not the burbs like most Moonbat!s on this board!

  102. 119

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    John: What you seem to miss is the proselytizing by your side with many ridiculous political beliefs trying to say Christianity is wrong and worthless. You fail to grasp what the ACLU is doing to historical symbols all over America. I can see them trying to go to Rio De Janiero, to the Tijuca Forest National Park, and attack the Christ the Redeemer statue located at the peak Corcovado Mountain.

    Then you pick on me. All I am suggesting to Rujax! is to read two books. You call this proselytizing. I am introducing Rujax! to prose he’s never contemplated before.

    Wake up John. Your politics are blinding your judgment.

  103. 120

    Puddybud Who Left The Reservation spews:

    GBS@115: It’s not an act of feeling better. Too many prosecutors use minorities as their stepping stone to a better political future. Demonization is bad no matter how it happens.

    Mike Nifong did the opposite. He used the minority “victim” and tried to make a name. Instead he destroyed three men!

  104. 121

    (Fake) GBS spews:

    Puddybud @ 117:

    Do you know where the term “Pro-life” originated from? It was from the Churches that opposed the penalty.

    There is no sound argument for the State to kill another human being. NONE. The possibility that a mistake is made can never be corrected if you are killing innocent people.

    I’d like to discet your comments on race & crime a bit. So you grew up in the tenements in Philly and if I understood you correctly, and that is all I’m trying to do, understand your words, you believe that Democrats in congress didn’t do enough to create economic opportunities in black communities so therefore it permissable for black people to diproportionately break the laws?

    See, in my house now, and the house where I grew up, schools were for learning, congress was for politics, and the home was for love and learning right from wrong. That cutting school was not tolerated, that stealing was forbidden, and committing violence would land you in prison.

    Why is there such a disconnect between the white community’s moral compass and that of the black community’s?

    Why does Don Imus get so much negative attention from the black community for nappy headed ho, but rap artist get a pass for nigger, bitches and gantsta rappers singing about killing cops?

    Don’t go getting all bent out of shape on me either. I’m trying to understand your comments and thoughts as they are mirrored agaisnt mine.

    GBS

  105. 122

    spews:

    Rather late in the thread, but hopefully Puddybud will see this.

    Why do I tend to pick on you, rather than the non-Christians? Because you are a Christian, so the standards you (and I) are supposed to live by are different.

    Why do I point out problems in your proselytizing? Because I really do want your ministry to be effective, and honestly believe that, regardless of our political differences, you have the best interests of every person here at heart.

    Otherwise, I wouldn’t bother.

    GBS

    As to our diversity of opinion being both a strength and a weakness, I think that the history of our party shows it to be both. We have a far more difficult time in getting our party to work together towards a goal, and even though historically we’ve usually far outnumbered Republicans, the actual power of the two parties has been rather closely balanced. We’ve got more people, they’ve got more discipline.

    Mind you, this isn’t really a criticism, merely a critique. I like the Democratic party the way it is, warts and all.

    Next topic – capital punishment. (It’s been a busy day, so all my replies are getting wrapped up into one post.)

    I’ve got some mixed feelings about capital punishment. As a punishment, it’s both ineffective and badly administered. It normally seems to serve no purpose beyond revenge, and I’m philosophically opposed to revenge.

    But… Some folks are simply too dangerous to keep around.

    Capital punishment might need to remain an option, in cases where the person is a danger to guards and other prisoners, or where the danger of escape is too great.

    At that point, it is no longer a punishment, but simple self-defense. It’s society saying “Ok, you win, Mr. Criminal. You’re too much for us to handle.” Such people do exist.

    Unfortunately, the way the death penalty is currently administered, it isn’t a punishment for being a killer.

    Rich killers get to play golf. Poor killers get to die, and occasionally, poor people that are mistaken for killers get to die too.

    That is simply unacceptable.

  106. 123

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush spews:

    John,

    Puddybud and PacMan have given up on this thread, so I doubt they’ll see it unless you post on fresh thread that you’ve responded to them. I’ve done that in the past.

    I’ll accept your answer on our party. I still disagree that it’s a weakness, or that history bears out we’re slow to get things done.

    If we can figure out how to hold terrorist at GITMO, I think we can keep killers behind bars. More to the point it’s how do you remedy the wrongly accused if they’re dead.

    As soon as someone can logically explain that, then I’ll be the first person to support the death penalty again.

  107. 124

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush @ 113

  108. 125

    PacMan - don't shoot the messenger! spews:

    The blood of our soldiers is on the hands of the people who voted for Bush @ 113
    Hey, sorry for the late reply. I had a higher calling!

    …..anyway, getting back to the topic, it really does not matter whether we debate the issue or not and I am not going to selectively pick and choose your comments to defend my viewpoint. I feel if you want a debate on the subject then lets select relevant topics and move forward in a civilized manner. Unfortunately I will onlly give myself approximately two days as I do not want to spend exuberant time on opinionated issues.

  109. 127

    (Fake) GBS spews:

    @ 125: “I feel if you want a debate on the subject then lets select relevant topics and move forward in a civilized manner.

    PacMan:

    That’s preciesly what I was trying to do. My topic is the Bible because in all of Christianity it is word of the Lord. Particularly, the four Gospels; which are named “Gospels” for a reason.

    The Bible is full of historical and factual errors. Man would never trascribe the word of the Lord incorrectly because God has the capacity to ensure his word is told correctly.

    We could debate this to death I suppose, and in the end neither one of us is going to change our minds. So perhaps the exercise is pointless after all.

    I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, which doesn’t mean anything except to say I understand the Christian ideology. The older I’ve become the more I realize that my life, the planet, how all life is interdependent upon each other, and then the concept of a endless universe proves, to me at least, that there is a a God of Nature. I firmly believe I owe my life and being to that God.

    I also believe there was a good man named Jesus. And he had a ministry. And he believed every word he preached. But I reject the Biblical account of Jesus’ life, death, resurrection, and ascention.

    I think the most important thing we can/should/must agree on is that the Founding Fathers of this nation never ever intended for religion and legislation to exist in the same governing body. And for good reason.

    That’s not to say that people of faith should not enter into politics, or that they shouldn’t reflect on their faith when making decisions. But, when those same people want to take their belief in all things mystical and interject them into the law of the land that all people must follow, then there must be a firm rejection of that ideology. Otherwise, the protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority will vanish and human suffering will take it’s place. It always has and it always will. To deny this is to deny history, and thus be doomed to continually repeating the egregious mistakes of history.