Mission Accomplished Strategy for Victory

Yay… Bush has a plan!

Two and a half years after the American invasion of Iraq, President Bush laid out Wednesday what he called a strategy for victory, vowing not to pull out on “artificial timetables set by politicians” but at the same time offering the first glimpse of his plan for extricating American forces.

Um… I’m no military expert… but shouldn’t we have had a “strategy for victory” before we invaded Iraq?

Comments

  1. 3

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Kind of like that great Kosovo stategy we had?

    Or perhaps the terrific Vietnam strategy?

    Or maybe you meant that successful one during the Korean War?

    WW1?

    WW2?

    Tell me again, which war was so incredibly planned from its inception that the exit strategy was on the books just waiting to be implemented?

  2. 4

    dj spews:

    ProudASS @ 3

    No, no, no…not “Exit Strategy.”

    Today, Bush unleashed his “strategy for victory.” It was published in a 35 page booklet called National Strategy for Victory in Iraq.

    Funny thing…I thought My Pet Goat was 35 pages, too.

  3. 5

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Tell me again… what was the party affiliation of the president during Kosovo?

    Tell me again…did good ol LBJ have an exit strategy for Vietnam?

    Tell me again…what was “The buck stops here” Trumans exit strategy for the Korean War?

  4. 9

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Better a President with a National Strategy for Victory in Iraq than a cowardly party of defeat with a plan for surrender…unless of course you ask Nancy Pelosi about the political gift she gave the President today when she endorsed cut and run withdrawal.

  5. 10

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Maybe you elite thinkers can come up with a day, date, time and plan for the grand exit… then go ahead, do the wise Kerry/Pelosi thing and announce it so you look really good and feel really important… I’m really, really sure the terrorists, insurgents, enemies and agitators will never find out and use it against our soldiers, our country, our citizens.

  6. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Vowing to keep bashing your head against a stone wall is not a strategy for tearing down the stone wall. It’s merely a strategy to continue bashing your head. There’s no substitute for military competence, of which this administration has none.

  7. 14

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    There’s no substitute for military competence, of which this administration has none. -Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/1/05 @ 12:46 am

    I’m quite sure all those Soldiers, Sargents,
    Captains, including my stepson Chris and Generals are grateful for that rousing vote of confidence in them, the members of that miltary that you love.

    I’ll be sure to mention it to Chris that the liberal asses in Seattle fervently believe he, his commanders and the men that report to him are incompetant.

    Tell us a few more stories on how you love and respect teh military.

    Your hatred… of this President, of the military and of this country holds no bounds.

  8. 16

    horse whisperer spews:

    Just caught Murtha on the late edition of Hardball, too bad he’s not running the show. Thank God the American people are finally opening their eyes to these bastards. Captain Clueless leading us into this war will tarnish our image for years, let alone those killed and maimed. How in the hell the imbecile was re-elected last year is beyond me.

  9. 19

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Right wing plan for Victory:

    1. Do not question the wisdom of the decision to go to war.
    2. Do not question the competence of the leaders who decided to go to war.
    3. Do not criticize the leadership’s lack of a plan for winning the war.
    4. Do not criticize the execution of the war.
    5. Continue putting blind faith in the leadership no matter how badly they fuck up the decision to go to war, the planning for the war, or the execution of the war.
    6. Continue sacrificing soldier’s lives no matter how unwinnable the war is.
    7. Learn nothing from history. Disregard realities. Keep beating your head against the stone wall. Attack the patriotism of anyone who doubts that beating your head against the stone wall is a wise thing to do.

  10. 20

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    So, ASS, how many more American lives should we sacrifice before we accept the fact this war is a failure, and we will never defeat the insurgency no matter how many American lives we lose and how much national treasure we spend?

  11. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ASS, how long would YOU fight in Iraq before giving up? 1 more year? 2 years? 5 years? 20 years? 50 years? 1,000 years? When would YOU call it a day and admit the mission is impossible?

    The strategic situation in Iraq is not at all difficult to comprehend. “Iraq” is not a nation, it’s an artificial entity created by European colonialists for their own purposes, that threw together three rival factions: Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites.

    It took a thug like Saddam to hold Iraq together. Toppling him created a power vacuum. It’s unrealistic to expect the rival factions to compete for power by peaceful means.

    Meanwhile, the U.S. is a foreign invader. Our troops have kidnapped and tortured their citizens. In addition, we’ve unleashed armed “civilian contractors” (a.k.a. mercenaries) on their populace who are not restrained by military discipline or control, and who are killing Iraqis. If there is one thing many Iraqis can agree on and work together for, it is throwing the foreign invader out of their country.

    As long as our troops are in their country killing their citizens, they have no choice but to fight, therefore will fight forever.

    An urban guerilla war cannot be won by conventional military means. This type of war forces the invader to fight defensively. It always gives the enemy the initiative. It lets the enemy always choose the time, place, and terms of battle. It depends for success on compelling the enemy to give up by inflicting attrition losses, but history shows that no one has ever won a war by using attrition tactics.

    ASS, with Saddam gone, this war is fundamentally a contest for power between the Sunni and Shiite factions. The U.S. installed a Shiite government, our troops are keeping it in power, and armed opposition against our presence is largely coming from the Sunni faction. Simple logic argues that a victory strategy that does not contemplate the defeat of the Sunni resistance is inconceivable. The question is, just how are we going to do that?

    Any calculations for victory also must take into account the Sunnis’ manpower resources, arms and supplies, casualty ratios (theirs vs. ours) in a battlefield context that allows the enemy to engage and disengage at will, and the Sunnis’ motivation to continue fighting in light of their cost of battle vs. the societal, personal, and economic costs they will bear if they lose the power struggle to the Shiite faction.

  12. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ASS, now ask yourself if Bush even has a victory strategy. (The fact he calls it that, doesn’t make it so.) Bush is talking about downsizing U.S. troop levels as Iraqi forces take over combat duties.

    This sounds a whole lot like Nixon’s “Vietnamization” scheme for ending U.S. involvement in Vietnam, which was not a victory strategy at all, but a withdrawal strategy (tied to an unrealistic hope that the Vietnamese faction we supported would win the free-for-all that would ensue when we pulled out).

    The “Vietnamization” of the Iraq war is already underway. Our troops are no longer fighting to ensure the survival of the U.S.-installed government. They certainly are not fighting for Saddam’s removal from power at this point. They are, at most, fighting to buy some time for the faction we support.

    The question then becomes, what price in American blood should be pay to buy how much more time for the Shiites?

    Because unless we are prepared to stay indefinitely, and bleed indefinitely, at some point we must turn over the war to the guys we’re supporting for them to either win or lose on their own, exactly as we did in Vietnam.

    In fact, there is no other possible outcome to this type of intervention.

  13. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Should we even be fighting for Shiites? In Iran, and the rest of the Islamic world, they are our sworn enemies.

  14. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ASS, we WILL leave Iraq, so the debate in this country really is over sooner vs. later. The only decision for Bush, Congress, and the American people to make is timing. Unfortunately, most Americans are poorly informed about Iraqi history, society, and politics; and don’t really understand what’s going on there. Public opinion polls simply reflect a growing unease, a sense the situation is not under control, an intuitive feeling that Bush cannot determine the outcome of this conflict or Iraq’s destiny. In this, the American public’s instinct is right. Two years of inconclusive urban combat have demonstrated that continued occupation of Iraq will only result in a continuation of inconclusive combat.

  15. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    The truth is, neither Bush, nor right-wing militarists like you, can control the outcome in Iraq. You don’t even know what outcome you’re fighting for. At most, you have a vague belief this has something to do with terrorism. But it doesn’t. It’s a conflict between the Sunni and Shiite factions for control of their own country, following the ouster by foreign intervention of a stable (albeit brutal) Sunni dictatorship. It’s not a conflict we can solve for them.

  16. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It’s like butting into someone else’s troubled marriage. When you do, they work together to attack you, then when you leave they resume fighting each other. As every police officer with experience of domestic calls knows.

  17. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Iraq is the same thing on a larger scale. Our troops can’t possibly police that situation. That’s why I call it an impossible mission. Our only national interest there is that Iraq not become an Afghanistan, a haven and training ground for anti-U.S. terrorists, in the power vacuum we have created there. That is a compelling interest, to be sure, and our national interest is best served by one faction or the other winning quickly and taking firm control of the country. The likeliest way this would happen is if the Sunnis quickly overwhelmed the Shiite forces and overthrew the Shiite government after we leave.

  18. 28

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    That is the likely outcome, because the Sunnis are the stronger faction. That is why Iraq had a Sunni dictator, not a Shiite dictator. In all likelihood, the Sunni-Shiite struggle for power will be settled by force, and we shouldn’t be surprised if another Sunni thug like Saddam emerges. It is possible, of course, that a Shiite thug will prevail instead.

    Another possible outcome is that Iraq will be partitioned into separate countries for the Sunnis and the Shiites. But that will be followed by another war between the Kurds and whichever government the Kurdish population is grafted to, and because Turkey adamantly opposes Kurdish independence and has been actively fighting a Kurdish insurgency for years, two more wars are in the offing: A Turkey-Kurdish war, and a Sunni-Kurdish or Shiite-Kurdish war.

  19. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Now, ASS, just how much American blood are you prepared to spill in this stew pot, and for how long, and for what ends?

  20. 30

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ASS — that’s what I have to say on the subject of Iraq. Your turn now. Ball’s in your court. Your reply?

  21. 31

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Goldy says, “I’m no military expert … but shouldn’t we have had a ‘strategy for victory’ before we invaded Iraq?”

    Before you can have a “strategy for victory,” you must first define “victory.”

    What are our troops in Iraq fighting for? I’m not sure, because Bush has never clearly articulated his goal in Iraq.

    Let’s look at the various reasons he’s given for going to war in Iraq.

    Is “victory” removing Saddam from power? He’s removed, so that can’t be why we’re still there. Protecting the U.S. from Iraqi WMDs? Iraq had none, so that doesn’t explain the continuing combat, either.

    So — what’s our goal in Iraq now? How do you define current U.S. war aims? At this juncture, what does “victory” consist of?

    Defeating terrorists? How do you differentiate between Iraqis fighting to rid their country of a foreign invader, and terrorists killing Americans? How can you even distinguish between combatants and non-combatants? Our government can’t. Our military can’t. So, in that context, how can we “defeat terrorists,” when we don’t even know who the terrorists are?

    Does “winning” in Iraq consist of killing Al Zakari? Is he even still alive? If he’s dead, how will we ever know it? If we can never determine if Al Zakari is dead or alive, if we never find him or his bones, does that mean our troops must keep fighting in Iraq forever?

    What is the mission, Mr. President? Trolls? Does anyone know?

  22. 32

    Donnageddon spews:

    “What is the mission, Mr. President? Trolls? Does anyone know?”

    Unending rape of the US treasury. Unending profit for the FOG. Unending War, Death and Maiming.

  23. 33

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    (munch) (munch)

    While here in Stefan’s garden eating his lettuce, I’m just wondering … is he going to share the money he gets from his lawsuit against Dean Logan and KCE with the generous donors who paid for his lawsuit, or keep it all himself? Selfish prick.

  24. 34

    Donnageddon spews:

    RR, your answer is held by the filter. I think the term that held it up is R A P E

    Be patient, as the President asks, the answer is forthcoming.

  25. 36

    sgmmac spews:

    @32
    Well, at least the veggies are healthy. Hope the pain is abating and you are feeling better. You know what the mission is so why do you ask, Roger. The mission is for the Iraqis to elect a government, train their military to function as a military, and train their police to keep their cities secure.

  26. 39

    Donnageddon spews:

    Or, is Iraq the never ending war with a constantly changing reason for never ending war?

  27. 40

    Chuck spews:

    OK Ill bite, what was the strategy for victory when we entered WWI? How about WWII? There was no strategy for victory until the possibility was realised. Wake up and let the military do the job without second guessing…

  28. 41

    sgmmac spews:

    @37,38
    I don’t know whether or not he articulated it, WMD was only one of the many reasons listed in the document that Congress approved. Elections, military, and police security are inherent in Democracy. Without them, you don’t have democracy.

  29. 42

    sgmmac spews:

    I’ve trained soldiers, I’ve worked in a Corps level Tactical Operations Center……… America has the best trained military in the world. They didn’t get that way by a few weeks of training and letting them loose. Training the Iraqi military to function on their own will take time, lots of time, they are doing great considering what they were. You can’t make instant leaders, that takes even more time.

  30. 43

    sgmmac spews:

    @38
    When they first invaded Iraq, it is obvious that Rumsfield didn’t plan on the democracy building…… The obvious question should have been “After we get Sadaam, THEN WHAT?”

  31. 44

    Donnageddon spews:

    Like I said, unending new objectives of an unending war.

    That was the obvious intention all along. A VERY profitable objective indeed!

  32. 48

    Donnageddon spews:

    Hey, Micheal, how many American soldiers killed in Kosovo?

    A: None. Now there is s recipe for winning!

    Korea, Germany? Micheal, what do they have in common with an unprovoked invasion of Iraq?

    A: Nothing! Now there is a recipe for unending carnage, death and destabiliazation of an entire region.

  33. 49

    JCH spews:

    Pull all the troops and use B-52s. Then reimbuse the American taxpayers with 1 trillion in Iraqi oil. If the ragheads bitch, repeat the B-52s.

  34. 51

    Puddybud spews:

    DJ, Look at Roger Rabbit’s comment in #13. Longest Yard Roger Rabbit? Only the bug ugly guy is DJ! He’s bashing his head upset that we whom think right don’t conform to his thought processes! Or is it synaptic misfirings?

  35. 53

    Michael spews:

    @46 Hey, Micheal, how many American soldiers killed in Kosovo?

    A: None. Now there is s recipe for winning!
    Sorry, indiscriminately bombing civilians from 40,000 feet is not a recipe for winning in most campaigns.

    Korea, Germany? Micheal, what do they have in common with an unprovoked invasion of Iraq?

    I thought it was Japan, not Germany who attacked the United States, and North Korea attacked South Korea, not the United States (kind of like when Iraq attacked Kuwait), so technically the United States attack on both Korea and Germany were unprovoked. There is one thing in common for you. The other obvious thing is that we still have 30,000+ troops in both Germany and Korea with no end in sight, just like Iraq.

  36. 55

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Here’s how folks with means can help those who are less fortunate: http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....ur01m.html -Comment by Thomas Trainwinder— 12/1/05 @ 7:03 am

    So let’s get this straight:

    Canlis is one of the single most expensive restraunts in the the area “Canlis isn’t for the thin of wallet. There are entire ZIP codes that will never take a seat here.”

    All proceeds — every dollar — will be donated

    What’s the key word there? I’ll give you a hint: it’s not All, every, dollar will, be or donated.

    That’s right it’s the PROCEEDS: what little that’s left over after buying the food, after buying the wine, after buying the liquor, after paying the sous chefs, after paying the salad chef, after paying the sommelier, after paying the pastry chef, after paying the bookkeeper, the waiters, the busboys. the bartenders, after paying electic bill, after paying the water bill, after sending out invitations, paying for postage, after making up “goodie bags” for those generous patrons to take home, after paying the decorator and the florist, after paying the janitors, after paying the taxes….some money will get to the homeless.

    I wonder how little that will be after this admittedly “for the thin of wallet” pays all those expensive bills.

    This is nothing more than another way for the liberal elites to feel good, to be nicely high and mighty showing off the newest jewelry, the latest car while they party, and to go home smugly assuming the did a good thing.

    No thanks.

    I’ll give my money to directly charities where it’s the overhead that’s miniscule and the donation actually that reaches the beneficiary is what’s generous: local food banks, The Salvation Army, Catholic Charities, PICU.

  37. 57

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    My nephew came back from Kosovo with tuberculosis – another gift that keeps on giving from waggin his willie.

  38. 58

    Puddybud spews:

    RR said:”Our troops have kidnapped and tortured their citizens.” Basis for that comment? We went out on the street and grabbed a guy or gal walking down the street and then starting torturing them? Or did we see some scarf covered AK-47 toting killer running down an alley way shooting at US soldiers and upon his capture we used rough interrogation means? Please clarify RR.

    Then RR says: “The “Vietnamization” of the Iraq war is already underway.” WTF? How RR? Are other Arab countries sending 100,000s of troops in from their countries to hold down Sunni areas while the Sunnis fight against us? This is what the Chinese did when they supported the North Vietnamese. The Chinese sent 320,000 troops into North Vietnam to defend it so the North Vietnamese troops could head south to attack South Vietnam. But then again you were right up there in the fighting right RR so you can make that statement from experience or were you rear eschalon in Saigon eating from palm fronds? Read http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/vietnam.html I call BULLSHIT to your above statement! So I can add this to the ever lengthening BULLSHIT list of RR.

  39. 59

    Nindid spews:

    Sarge – First let me say that I really appreciate your posts here I just wish we had more substantive posts like yours instead of the adolescent snarks that we often see.

    In any case, I wanted to ask you a few questions on the military side of things.

    1) How long do you think training up the solid core of NCO’s and junior officers will take? You say above that it takes quite a long time to do and the best historical example I can think of was our attempt to train the South Vietnamese Army for 25 years from 1959-1974. In the end, they had over 1 million man army with pretty much the latest military technology we could provide. Should we expect a similar time frame to train the Iraqi Army? Shouldn’t we (Rumsfeld and Bush) have known this going in?

    2) What do you think of Murtha’s plan to lessen the footprint of American troops in Iraq while maintaining air support and an OTH (Over the horizon) capability to prevent rebel assaults on the government itself?

    3) Do you have any sense of the logistic and personnel issues that we are incurring? We all have heard the problems with recruiting, but can you say anything about the effect on readiness and perhaps even the sustainability of the campaign with the costs in equipment and the sheer magnitude of the operational cycle on our troops?

    Thanks!

  40. 60

    Puddybud spews:

    BTW rugratASS; comment #55 is MORE original thought from me. I am a non-conformist per Chomsky! You just hate me! Go ahead admit it, I’m a big ‘un!

  41. 61

    Nindid spews:

    I’ll disagree with Rabbit that our military can not prevail in an urban guerilla war, but it takes on average over 9 years to do so. Unless one is going to argue for the neo-con dream of toppling Syria and Iran or the fantasy land of some quasi-religious ‘Democracy is on the March,’ it is had to see how the cost/benefit works out in our favor here.

    From the political side, the biggest problems is not that the war was started on false pretenses. (We can argue about whether Bush technically ‘lied’ but the deception is clear.)

    Rather, the biggest problem is that our fearless leader (“Bring it on!”) does not seem to understand what it will take to win and certainly has not prepared the American people to accept the sacrifices needed. Bush’s message has always been that you can have your cake and eat it too. We can throw our military into a bloodless war and have them home by Christmas – and, oh by the way, Iraqi oil will pay for our tax cuts as well.

    Americans are quite willing to accept sacrifices to meet national goals as we have shown time and time again. But the combination of poorly defined and constantly changing goals, at best misleading the country as to the real threat posed, and a constant message that no real sacrifice was needed on the home front doomed support for this war from the get go.

    As a politician, Bush was quite happy to embrace the political power that comes from being a war time leader, but he has never accepted the sacrifices needed for him or for the country. In that, he has failed us all.

  42. 62

    Dr. E spews:

    9
    “Better a President with a National Strategy for Victory in Iraq than a cowardly party of defeat with a plan for surrender…”

    I’d rather say “better an intelligent President who is critically engaged in an honest appraisal of potential national security threats than an intellectual dwarf whose appetite is limited to ideological drivel.”

    How’s that?

  43. 63

    Puddybud spews:

    Sorry StuckASS@49: I don’t do drugs. Have YOU fallen off the wagon again? Need directions to the nearest rehab center? My sunny disposition is heaven sent. I lose my smiling face from the likes of you!

  44. 64

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Protecting the U.S. from Iraqi WMDs? Iraq had none, so that doesn’t explain the continuing combat, either. -Comment by Roger Rabbit— 12/1/05 @ 2:42 am

    Nearly 2 tons metric tons of enriched uranium;
    Chemical warheads containing cyclosarin (a nerve agent five times more deadly than sarin gas);
    1,500 gallons of chemical weapons agents;
    Over 1,000 radioactive materials in powdered form easily dispersed over populated areas;
    Sarin;
    Mustard gas;
    Lethal longrange munitions.

    I quess the good ol boys who were in charge of Iraq were just collectors huh? ‘No ma’am we never intend to use these weapons, we just like to look at em… they are collectibles, after all’…except for that small incident (you doo remember the Kurds, don’t you?) where they actually DID use them…. and sell them to folks who would/did use them.

    You fringies simply cannot be that naive.

    And you can’t have it both ways.

    You so desperately want this country, MY country, to give up its control to the thugs at the UN, you so desperately want this country, MY country, to be accountable to a world court, to follow the leadership and opinions of whiners like the French, you want us to participate (read: be under control of) every country in the world, but you do not want us, you absolutely hate us doing the one thing we do the very best: spread freedom and encourage democracy.

    Or as military analyst Andrew Krepinevich put it to us yesterday, whether Iraq was a “war of choice” or a “war of necessity” at the beginning, it certainly is the latter now. Our adversaries the world over–from North Korea to Syria’s Bashar Assad to Iran’s mullahs–are watching to see if America has the will to win in Iraq.

    The goal is the democracy and freedom in the mideast – the one single thing that will break the rule of dictators and thugs: power in the hands of ordinary citizens.

    You smugly sit here with yours critizing and hating the land and founders that gave it to you, while denying the same opportunity fo others.

    No it’s not easy… it’s long, hard and comes with a high price.

    But, compared to how long it took OUR COUNTRY to fight for our independence from a cruel master, compared to how long it took OUR COUNTRY to write a constitution, compared to how long it took OUR COUNTRY to get it ratified. compared to how long it took OUR COUNTRY to finally hold an election, and compared to how long it took OUR COUNTRY to finally form a government… they are doing wonderfully in Iraq with our help.

  45. 65

    Dr. E spews:

    21
    ““Iraq” is not a nation, it’s an artificial entity created by European colonialists for their own purposes, that threw together three rival factions: Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites.”

    Thank you for pointing this out. This is a fact that few — very few — people in this country understand, that Iraq is a “fictitious” nation. This poses some severe problems for US foreign policy, insofar as we depend on the allegiance and stability of other fictitious nations (such as Pakistan or Afghanistan) for “winning” the “war on terror.”

  46. 67

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Why aren’t you CLOWNS talking about Joe Liebermann’s recent comments supporting what is going on in Iraq???
    You are just ignoring those comments because you hate Bush….not because you want a balanced perspective of what is happening.
    Why did ABC and CBS ignore Liebermann’s comments and NBC only give them a glancing blow??? USA Today failed to mention it either. Liebermann has made 4 trips to Iraq and seen alot. He has a much different perspective than you CLOWNS.

  47. 68

    Dr. E spews:

    28

    “But that will be followed by another war between the Kurds and whichever government the Kurdish population is grafted to, and because Turkey adamantly opposes Kurdish independence and has been actively fighting a Kurdish insurgency for years, two more wars are in the offing: A Turkey-Kurdish war, and a Sunni-Kurdish or Shiite-Kurdish war.”

    Again, an excellent point, and one that most in this country have been ignoring. The Kurdish nation spans the borders of several countries in the region. Turkey has a vested interest in subjugating the Kurds, lest they lose control of much of the east of their country. The Iranians similarly have an interest in preventing the establishment of a Kurdish nation, as it would mobilize their Kurdish minority, as well as possibly mobilizing other minorities (like the Azeris, etc.) in the northwest of their country.

    The apparent blindness of the Bush administration to the potential of civil war and regional disorder they might create in invading a sovereign (albeit totalitarian) nation highlights the crass insolence of their foreign policy, which puts a minority of American business interests ahead of the welfare of the nation or the world.

  48. 69

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    They salivated over Joe Lieberman when they thought he could make Al Gore appear normal… now that he’s no longer useful to them, they ignore him.

  49. 70

    Nindid spews:

    Irrelevant @64 I just love it how trolls show up and try and change the subject.

    I did read Lieberman’s comments and frankly there is nothing new there and little he said was informed by his trips there. I imagine that because Bush included him in his speech (and I bet he is the new talking point on Fox) doesn’t make his views right or a decent subject of conversation.

  50. 71

    Mom spews:

    Lets pull our troops out and then we can fight them on our soil.
    And now coming to a blue city near you, nuclear weapons. Not to
    change the subject, but did anyone see the new car George Clooney
    bought. What a moron. That thing doesn’t hardly burn any fuel,
    and the batteries wont hardly plug the landfill later. Oh, and
    he’s so good looking he must know whats best for our country.

  51. 72

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    “We act to prevent a wider war, to defuse a powder keg at the heart of Europe, that has exploded twice before in this century with catastrophic results. . . . By acting now, we are upholding our values, protecting our interests and advancing the cause of peace. . . . Ending this tragedy is a moral imperative. It is also important to America’s national interests. . . . Do our interests justify the dangers to our armed forces? . . . I am convinced that the dangers of acting are far outweighed by the dangers of not acting — dangerous to defenseless people and to our national interests. . . . I have a responsibility as president to deal with problems such as this before they do permanent harm to our national interests. America has a responsibility to stand with our allies when they are trying to save innocent lives and preserve peace, freedom and stability in Europe.”Bill Clinton, in a March 24, 1999, Oval Office broadcast, explained his military action in Kosovo

    So fringies and partisan liars – ready to condemn your boy Clinton for the same reasons? By the way, it’s been nearly 6 years, are our troops home from Kosovo, yet?

    Clinton “lied, people died”

  52. 73

    Dr. E spews:

    Proudass @ 61

    “The goal is the democracy and freedom in the mideast – the one single thing that will break the rule of dictators and thugs: power in the hands of ordinary citizens.

    You smugly sit here with yours critizing and hating the land and founders that gave it to you, while denying the same opportunity fo others.”

    To quote James Madison:

    The landed interest, at present, is prevalent, but in process of time…when the number of landholders shall be comparatively small…will not the landed interests be overbalanced in future elections? and, unless wisely provided against, what will become of our government? In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority.

  53. 75

    Dr. E spews:

    “So fringies and partisan liars – ready to condemn your boy Clinton for the same reasons? By the way, it’s been nearly 6 years, are our troops home from Kosovo, yet?”

    Your quote from Clinton actually highlights the differences between Kosovo and Iraq. Just google “Sarajevo 1914″.

  54. 76

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    yoohoo fringies… your boy, Duelfer… remember how you love to throw that name around….

    Bush received daily briefings that gave the president even greater concern about Iraq’s potential threat. The CIA produced the president’s daily brief, or PDB, but they painted an even more dire picture. The bipartisan Robb-Silberman report said the PDBs on Iraq were “even more misleading” than the National Intelligence Estimate, or NIE, given to Congress.

    “These daily reports were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced” than the NIE, the commission said, adding the reports’ “drumbeat of repetition left an impression of many corroborating reports where, in fact, there were very few sources.”

    The commission found no evidence of pressuring or coercing intelligence analysts but did find that the daily briefings “seemed to be selling intelligence in order to keep its customers, or at least, the first customer interested.”

    Outside of the daily briefings and other reports, Congress was receiving less aggressive assessments than Bush. But they were still bleak.

    “The bulk of them all agreed that there were existing stocks of biological, existing stocks of chemical; and for the most part they all agreed there was a nuke program — the question was how they were going about it,” said Charles Duelfer, former chief U.S. weapons inspector in Iraq.

    Duelfer’s post-war survey found no biological or chemical weapons stockpiles. Despite the massive intelligence failure, Duelfer said there was no conspiracy.

    “There was a disagreement on some of the elements but there was a large consensus in terms of the overall direction that the Saddam regime wanted to go, which was it was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program,” Duelfer said.

  55. 77

    spews:

    Uhhh…LardAss-

    The record shows that NOT ONE American Soldier died in Kosovo.

    So fuck you and your HACK-tacular right-wing “news” (read…propaganda) sites…WOW!!!!…TownHall!!!!…oooooohhhhh…complete with a token KNEE-GRO!…I don’t know about YOU, but MY jeans are getting wet!

    Just keep pimping for this vicious, evil cabal of warmogering profiteers. Keep offering you sons and daughters as cannon-fodder for their nefarious enterprises…madam clueless.

    I’d STILL rather have a President who ONLY lied about a blowjob vs. one who is constitutionally incapable of telling the truth, anytime.

  56. 79

    Puddybud spews:

    It’s not only that Lieberman is not useful to them; he will not drink the DNC kool-aid. Howard Dean hates Lieberman because Lieberman makes Dean and Kucinich look like the real ASSes they are to the American public.

    ProudASS: When I travel to LA I immediately find an radio station that carries the intelligent commentary of Larry Elder, a proud, conservative, black man!

    Mom: I suggest we let the islamofascists try their wares on San Francisco, since they recently passed that stupid referendum against the military.

  57. 80

    Nindid spews:

    DumbAss @69 Do you really want to compare Kosovo to Iraq?

    Before Kosovo, Republicans claimed that all sorts of catastrophes would ensue and then questioned the C-in-C during the war. Were they traitors?

    All the objectives in the war were accomplished with hardly any American casualties and with the support of the entirety of NATO. How does that compare to Bush’s coalition of the bribed? “Don’t forget Poland!”

    Yes, six years later we have troops in Kosovo. As per Global Security:

    “By the end of 2004 the only remaining American forces in the Former Yugoslavia were the 1,000 Ohio Army National Guard soldiers of the 37th Armor Brigade deployed to Kosovo as peacekeepers.” http://www.globalsecurity.org

    Still want to compare the two? I thought not….

  58. 81

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    So let’s reiterate shall we fringies…

    Clinton ending genocide and a murderous regime is a good thing.
    Bush ending genocide and a murderous regime is a good thing.

    Joe Liberman supporting and representing a cardboard cut-out and a sexual deviant is a good thing.
    Joe Lieberman supporting and representing a man spreading democracy is a bad thing.

    Duelfer report saying no WMDs found was a good thing
    Duelfer now saying there was no disagreement that it was reconstituting its nuclear weapons program,” is a bad thing.

    No wonder you guys are so sadly confused… you want it all BOTH ways.

  59. 82

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    oops:

    Clinton ending genocide and a murderous regime is a good thing.
    Bush ending genocide and a murderous regime is a BAD thing.

  60. 83

    Donnageddon spews:

    Michael @ 50 gets the early bird award for the most disengenous post of the day!

    You know all that crap you posted at 50? What the hell does it have to do with exit strategy? Just like any other incomitant Neo-Con Ass, you keep changing the discussion as your argument gets destroyed!

    Troops in NK and Germany!? Why do you think that is, and how many die each year you imbecilic moron!

  61. 84

    Donnageddon spews:

    Bush ending genocide and a murderous regime and replacing it with another murderous regime and a civil war is a BAD thing.

  62. 85

    jaybo spews:

    Nindid,

    I think the key phrase in your statement is, “Before Kosovo”.

    After troops were committed those same republicans did not actively seek the undermine the troops and their mission.

    This is what most americans dislike about the current democrat political strategy as proven in recent polls.

    The President himself has stated that depate on the issue of Iraq is valid but lying about the facts that led up to it are not.

    Quit trying to rewrite history.

  63. 86

    Donnageddon spews:

    PuddyBud @ 78 “I suggest we let the islamofascists try their wares on San Francisco, since they recently passed that stupid referendum against the military.”

    Gosh, where have I heard that before?
    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10004302/

    You are a Kool Aid drunk Zombie of the Wingnut Fringe PB. And a real moron too boot!

  64. 87

    Puddybud spews:

    RugratASS: He never can refute the evidence, he attacks the messenger. Standard DNC playbook tactics by rugratASS

  65. 88

    Donnageddon spews:

    The TROLLS here are so uynable to defend Bush’s disasterous forign policy, they will sonn bring up the war of 1812.

    That dog don’t hunt, my Troll friends. We have to deal with the garbage in this administration NOW!

  66. 89

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    Ass @81

    If Bush had just said that was why we invaded Iraq, people would have understood.

    The fact he lied then, now and forever about the reason is the reason his support is waning.

    Remember…he promised to bring integrity and character back in to the white house. He’s done everything but.

    Why couldn’t he have just said: Saddam’s a bad guy…murderous…and I want to take him out. Instead, he had to lie, fake, falsify, etc.

  67. 90

    Puddybud spews:

    You’re abosolutely right StuckASS! Bill O’Reilly said it first. Why not go to Bill O’Reilly.com and retrieve his original quote instead of getting the MSNBC spin? You don’t like people using rhetoric when your side votes in a crazy manner. Are you back on Castro Street and you don’t want anything to happen while you are there?

  68. 91

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    I thought you got a J O B … not on the breakfast crew today (“Can I supersize that coffee for you, ma’am?)?

    Geez, I hope you haven’t bee fired already – I’m waiting for you to move on up into a HOUSE and start contributing with your porperty taxes. Hurry up… the 1st half for next year is due April 30.

  69. 92

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    I guess you Duelfer missed at 79, eh train?

    Or perhaps that one inconveniently didn’t suit your purpose?

  70. 93

    Dr. E spews:

    “Bush ending genocide and a murderous regime is a BAD thing.”

    Precisely what genocide did Bush end?

  71. 94

    Nindid spews:

    Jaybo@ 84
    Sorry I wasn’t more clear, but you are misinformed. You really shouldn’t criticize people for “rewriting history” if you do not know it yourself.

    Republicans consistently criticized and attempted to undermine Clinton DURING the war in which combat operations lasted from March 24, 1999 to June 10, 1999. Here are just a few I found without looking too hard.

    GOP Presidential candidate Governor George W. Bush: “Bush, in Austin, criticized President Clinton’s administration for not doing enough to enunciate a goal for the Kosovo military action and indicated the bombing campaign might not be a tough enough response. ‘Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the president to explain to us what the exit strategy is,’ Bush said.” Houston Chronicle, 4/9/99

    GOP Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan: “And what are we doing bombing and attacking this tiny country that has never attacked the United States to rip away from them a province that does not belong to us? I believe it is an unjust war. I think we have failed in our strategic objectives, and it is now becoming basically no longer a war for Kosovo but a war to save NATO’s credibility and NATO’s face. And that does not justify sending in an army of 100,000 American ground troops into the Balkans.” NBC,
    “Meet the Press,” 4/25/99

    Tom Delay (R-TX): “Mr. Speaker, this is a very difficult speech for me to give, because I normally, and I still do, support our military and the fine work that they are doing. But I
    cannot support a failed foreign policy. … But before we get deeper embroiled into this Balkan quagmire, I think that an assessment has to be made of the Kosovo policy so far. President Clinton has never explained to the American people why he was involving the U.S. military in a civil war in a sovereign nation, other than to say it is for humanitarian reasons, a new military/foreign policy precedent. … Was it worth it to stay in Vietnam to save face? What good has been accomplished so far? Absolutely nothing.” Congressional Record, 4/28/99

    P.S. Fox News is a bad source for accurate history.

  72. 96

    Nindid spews:

    Dr E @93 He is referring, I think, to Saddam’s attack against the Kurds and his attempt to increase the Arab populations in places such as Kirkuk. No one is sorry to see Saddam go, but the means and the cost are the problem.

    What is more, is that Bush did not end it. Saddam was quite incapable of doing anything against the Kurds ever since 1992. But in the end, was removing one bad guy from the planet worth the cost we have seen? Are we now going to go around the world invading and occupying countries to remove the many, many bad guys of the world?

    One would think there might be a smarter and more effective way of doing things….

  73. 97

    Puddybud spews:

    ASSes, you all voted for John Kerry right? Didn’t Kerry say we need to listen to the French? Well Dominique De Villepin now says we need to say the course in Iraq.

    http://www.alertnet.org/thenew.....754471.htm

    “Asked whether Washington should set a timetable for bringing home troops, Villepin said any withdrawal “should be coordinated with the local situation in Iraq and the regional situation.”

    “I think that the timetable should be a global timetable,” he said. “The real timetable is the Iraqi situation.”

  74. 98

    Puddybud spews:

    Notice when the ASSes copy Internet quotes, they are sparsed with funny characters like post #94. Why is that Nindid? Did you attend the donnageddon copy and paste school of quote posting?

  75. 99

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    ooops! Now, did the French fall off the fringie reservation or is Villepan pandering for political gain?… questions, question, how’s a good little liberal supposed to know what to spew with all these contratictory questions!

  76. 100

    Apache Fog spews:

    This halfwit in the White House is the culmination of the Reagan Revolution started by Tom Brokaw’s, “best generation ever!” It is almost impossible to imagine anyone less fit than Reagan for the presidency, but my generation was up to the task in finding and voting for someone even more stupid and inept. We can also thank the smartypants wiseguys of Generation X for voting in this retarded little rich boy.

  77. 101

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    I did notice that Pud… I ASSumed it was an attempt at c*mmie code in Syrillic or something.

  78. 102

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    Ass @ 92

    Huh? Some relevance please…

    Wow…Fox has Bush approval at pitiful 36% (Ass…that’s your lovely Fox). Must be lonely out there…

  79. 103

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    but my generation was up to the task in finding and voting for someone even more stupid and inept. -Comment by Apache Fog— 12/1/05 @ 9:22 am

    FINALLY an admission of truth about Clinton and his corrupt band of liars! Thanks fog, I know the truth didn’t come easy for you.

    And poor Hitlary… getting more hits from the left than the right these days!

    I see good ol’ fringie Tim Robbins was in rare form this morning too… Actor Tim Robbins Lashes Out: ‘Hillary Clinton can kiss my butt… That ridiculous, ridiculous statement she’s made on Iraq.’ Comments made Thursday on AIR AMERICA’S ‘Morning Sedition’…

  80. 104

    Nindid spews:

    Jaybo @84 – Oh, I found one more that I just have to post here for your amusement.

    Here we have Republicans voting to de-fund our troops while they are in the middle of combat. Can you imagine what you would say if all the Democrats voted to pull all money from Iraq? ‘Traitors’ perhaps?

    Now, the only question is are you man (or woman) enough to admit you were wrong?

    May 19, 1999 — GOP members of the House Armed Services Committee voted to prevent the use of any of the funds in the fiscal year 2000 defense authorization to fund NATO’s efforts — combat or peacekeeping — in Yugoslavia. Democratic Rep. Gene Taylor (TX) offered an amendment to remove the Yugoslavia funding restriction, but Republican committee members defeated the measure 27 to 31.

  81. 105

    spews:

    Hey LardAss-

    Read #77 before you take more hillbilly heroin and start playing with the leg of the footstool.

    The way you’re goin’ this morning you oughta be completely checked out by 11.

  82. 106

    Donnageddon spews:

    PuddyBud @ 98 “Notice when the ASSes copy Internet quotes, they are sparsed with funny characters like post #94. Why is that Nindid? Did you attend the donnageddon copy and paste school of quote posting?”

    The “funny characters” you see are called “attribution”. That means when you use some one as a source, you “attribute” it to that source.

    But Plagerizers like PuddyBud wouyld not understand such an honest practice as “attribution”.

    And only PuddyBud would steal the Kool Aid from Bill O’Rielly and not attribute it to the idiot!

  83. 107

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Train.. some relevance please… what does Duelfer confirming WMDs have to do with Bush polls?

    Please, try to pay attention…. I know it’s hard when your watching your hero munching your Cheerios and trying to read big words all at once.

  84. 108

    Nindid spews:

    Puddy @98 – Try fixing your browser settings… it comes across fine here. Now, anything to say on the content?

  85. 109

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    So, donniegetsNONE, what’s the HTML for that fancy “attribution” font stuff you do?

    LMAO

  86. 110

    Puddybud spews:

    Apache FogASS: Why was there such a outpouring of sympathy at the Reagan funeral? Why were the news stories so positive on the Reagan legacy review and how he helped destroy the Soviet Union? Why did Gorbachev say Reagan was the driving force for the dissolution of Soviet society? Why were so many lefty commentators like Chris Matthews and Aaron Brown retching in their funeral coverage? Come on FogAss you must have answers to these poignant questions.

    DR E.: My reply to you is on the “What’s up Doc” thread.

  87. 111

    Puddybud spews:

    You really shouldn’t criticize people for “rewriting history” if you do not know it yourself. That is the first posted sentence.

  88. 112

    Nindid spews:

    Jaybo@ 84 “Sorry I wasn’t more clear, but you are misinformed. You really shouldn’t criticize people for “rewriting history” if you do not know it yourself.”

    This one…?

  89. 113

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    The big question Pud is ‘why are liberals insane?’ The answer, of course is ‘they are out of power and see no hope of regaining it’.

  90. 114

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Puddy @98 – Try fixing your browser settings… it comes across fine here. Now, anything to say on the content? -Comment by Nindid— 12/1/05 @ 9:30 am

    Ok, I’m willing to believe you’re being upright here… fix browser setting how?

  91. 115

    Michael spews:

    @83 Michael @ 50 gets the early bird award for the most disengenous post of the day!

    Umm, Michael didn’t post #50.

    @84 Bush ending genocide and a murderous regime and replacing it with another murderous regime and a civil war is a BAD thing.

    And that is different from Kosovo how?

    On June 9, 1999, representatives of the Yugoslav government and NATO signed an armistice in a tent outside Kumanovo, Macedonia, ending NATO’s 78-day air assault. Within a week, NATO troops occupied the Serbian province of Kosovo, and their KLA allies began a reign of terror that has continued ever since.

    In June 1999 alone, over 250,000 Serbs, Roma, Turks, Muslims, and Jews were forced to leave Kosovo, often with little or no property. In addition to targeting Serbs, Albanians launched special pogroms against the Roma (“Gypsies”), in the best tradition of their WW2 ancestors.

    In July 1999, 14 Serb farmers were murdered while harvesting their fields outside the hamlet of Staro Gracko. (An IWPR hack aptly named Fron Nazi claimed they were victims of “Serb subterfuge,” even as KFOR statistics showed one Serb was being murdered every 24 hours.)

    In October 1999, an Albanian mob murdered Bulgarian UN worker Valentin Krumov for speaking what sounded like Serbian.

    In February 2001, a bus full of Serbs who were coming to visit their cemeteries was blown up by a remote-controlled mine. Three Albanians arrested in connection with the bombing were released by December 2001, and one “escaped” from the US fortified base Camp Bondsteel.

    Throughout Kosovo, Serbs have retreated into towns and villages that have become virtual concentration camps. If they venture outside those areas, which are guarded by NATO troops and not infrequently cordoned off with barbed wire, they risk death. The most notorious ghetto has been Orahovac. Other enclaves, like Gracanica and Decani monastery, are frequently under attack.

    In the north of Kosovo, local Serbs have managed to stop the Albanian takeover on the southern side of the Ibar River, in Mitrovica. Together with several towns in the north, this is the only remaining territory in Kosovo not dominated by the Albanian separatists, which has made it a target for constant attacks by Albanians, occupation authorities, and their cheerleaders.

    Even Albanians have been targets of organized violence, as the terrorist KLA targeted “collaborators,” political rivals and witnesses to its murderous deeds.

    Albanian militants have demolished or desecrated over 110 churches, chapels and monasteries. They have destroyed hundreds of monuments and even libraries, renamed towns, streets, and the entire province (“Kosova”) in an effort to completely eradicate any non-Albanian presence in Kosovo.
    http://www.antiwar.com/malic/?articleid=704

  92. 116

    Puddybud spews:

    Sorry hit the enter key too fast. So Nindid continuing my post in #111, that’s what ProudAss and I see displayed on ASSes.

    Regarding the content, shall I enter rugratASS mode? No I won’t do it. Yes we complained about Clinton and what he was doing. It was wag the dog!

  93. 117

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    HowCan—
    Actually the French are up to their asses in alligators and have come to the very clear realization that if we pull out immediately, their sorry asses are F*CKED again!!
    If we immediately pull out, they will be eating GOAT in Paris instead of GOAT cheese!!!
    The French now realize they have major internal problems that have been brewing for decades. The French have come to grips with the reality of “sleeper cells” within their borders to a major extent…and the problem will get exponentially WORSE with a US pullout.
    I think the French CLOWNS would now prefer fighting the terrorism battle on someone elses soil, don’t you?
    The problem for the arrogant French is they just cannot come out and admit they were WRONG. They thought they could negotiate with terrorists….they thought wrong!

  94. 118

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    No, more like “wag the pig” but Hollyweird didn’t think that title would fly.

  95. 119

    Donnageddon spews:

    ProudAss “HTML for that fancy “attribution” font stuff you do?”

    Um… its called a URL. Have someone with the white coats near you explain it.

    LMAO!

  96. 120

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    I do the url’s all the time donniegetsNone and I don’t end up with script used in ancient writings.

  97. 121

    Donnageddon spews:

    ProudAss @ 144 “Ok, I’m willing to believe you’re being upright here… fix browser setting how? ”

    Back away from the computer… far away before you poke someone’s eye out!!!!

    What a complete moron you are ProudASS!

  98. 124

    Michael spews:

    @114 Ok, I’m willing to believe you’re being upright here… fix browser setting how?

    I believe if you are using Microsoft Internet Explorer you can right click on the page on the text (not on a picture), and click Encoding -> More -> Unicode to make those go away, although I can’t imagine why there are characters here that are not in the Western European set.

  99. 125

    Donnageddon spews:

    “I do the url’s all the time donniegetsNone and I don’t end up with script used in ancient writings. ”

    No I have ehard everything under the sun! ProudAss, it is cvlear yoou live in a completely different world.

    CLUE: There is NOTHING on this page that looks like ancient writings except for your 1930 Nazi-style thoughts.

  100. 127

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Go back to your cartoon train, you even fail at clever… maybe The Conductor can teach you some.

    And clearly, you are incapable of actually paying attention and following the thread.

    Good luck this afternoon.

  101. 128

    spews:

    I liked that we went into Kosovo. I had been hoping we would do SOMETHING there for months.

    Obviously Colin Powell had his stamp all over that operation. It was organized, it was clean…it was American Casualty-free, and Madeline Albright was able in the end to get the UN to take over…ONLY AFTER the Europeans saw that the conflict wasn’t going to turn into a quagmire.

    The US invasion and mis-handled aftermath in Iraq will be studied for future decades as an exercise in how NOT to conduct a similar operation.

    I had a cold dread when this began that the Bushies were driving us off the cliff. We’ll be dealing with the consequences of this misbegotten, unsound and immoral war…and Middle East policy for generations.

    We MUST get a majority in one or both Houses of Congress to make SOME kind of beginning toward un-screwing this awful, tragic mess.

    Bush’s speech has been compared to Nixon’s pronouncements at various times. Parallels can even be made between the sorties we rae making into Syria vs. the secret operations in Cambodia. A comment was made that the differece is…Nixon didn’t START his war, therefore it was easier for him to get out.

  102. 129

    sgmmac spews:

    Hey, Micheal, how many American soldiers killed in Kosovo?

    A: None. Now there is s recipe for winning!

    Sorry, but the above is NOT true. I spent 5 months on a airfield in Tirana, Albania with a little under 5,000 other US soldiers from Germany with the Apache helicopters that General Wesley Clark wanted to bomb and attack Kosovo with that he never actually utilized, but we were there nonetheless. Two of the Apaches crashed while we were there training. Both pilots died in the second crash. The crash and losing those two pilots affected everyone there.

  103. 130

    Nindid spews:

    Puddy @116 “Yes we complained about Clinton and what he was doing. It was wag the dog!”

    I think you are confusing the Republicans talking points from 1998 where Clinton attacked al-Qaeda in Afghanistan with the 1999 war in Kosovo.

    But in any case, the same justifications have been used against Bush as he rather publicly stated that war was good for a president and he intended to be a successful ‘war president’ and use that power to push through his conservative agenda with tax cuts and the like.

    Isn’t that still undermining the troops? Or is it just ok if a Republican does it? Are Republicans more important to you then America?

  104. 131

    Puddybud spews:

    Michael: I am using Unicode (UTF-8) Left to Right Document. Travelling overseas, I have had Unicode set for years! They must be using moonbat decoder ring settings.

  105. 132

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    Ass @127

    On the contrary. It’s you who fails to understand that Bush supporters and detractors have lined up with tons of proof of the lies and falsehoods.

    One doesn’t have to look further than his own cabinet. Read the books (I have). His loyal team members (who have the integrity and character to leave) speak about Bush’s unwarranted stream of falsehoods.

    Looks like snow.

  106. 133

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Pay attention donniegetNone… when I look at your last post, where you copied my word URL’s, I now see

    U R L … then an A with this ^ accent above it, a capital C crossed with an = type sign, then the TM trademark insignia, then the S.

    The exact same lettering where you copied my word DON’T

    Stop being ans ASS.

  107. 135

    sgmmac spews:

    @135
    Probably, but a death is a death to me, in some ways accidential deaths hurt you more, if you are a leader. We lost more in the first Gulf war in accidents than from “battle.” The Two pilots deaths really got to me personally. I hurt for months from something that my CSM told me about one of them.

  108. 136

    Donnageddon spews:

    ProudASS “I now see

    U R L … then an A with this ^ accent above it, a capital C crossed with an = type sign, then the TM trademark insignia, then the S.”

    And everyone else sees exactly what I typed:

    ““I do the url’s all the time donniegetsNone and I don’t end up with script used in ancient writings. ”

    It is your problem, ProudASS, not a vast left wing conspiracy!

    LMAO!

  109. 137

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac @ 129 Thank you for your service, sgmmac. And I am sorry for those brave soldiers lost in the training exercise.

    But my main point stands.

  110. 138

    sgmmac spews:

    @59
    The answer to your first question is months and years. The NonCommissioned Officers Corps (NCO)developed a plan over 25 years ago to formally school and train NCOs. The NCOs train and lead soldiers, they are considered the “backbone” of the Army. There is a school for Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Sergeant First Class and Sergeants Major. Those are the basic schools, there are lots of others. Officers have almost the same structure and the NCO schools were based on the Officer System.

  111. 139

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    36

    “The mission is for the Iraqis to elect a government, train their military to function as a military, and train their police to keep their cities secure.”

    I haven’t heard that one before. Is that the mission now? When was this mission statement issued? If it is, the next question is, is this mission achievable?

  112. 141

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @58

    “RR said:’Our troops have kidnapped and tortured their citizens.’ Basis for that comment?”

    Oh, come on! This is no longer debatable, and I’m not gonna waste my time debating it with you, Puddy. U.S. troops detained hundreds of Iraqi citizens. The evidence that Iraqi citizens were tortured, sometimes to death, is overwhelming and indisputable. The odds that all were terrorists, insurgents, or combatants are nil; the International Red Cross determined that 85% to 90% were innocent Iraqis arrested by mistake because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. If you want to deny established facts, go ahead and post your bullshit.

  113. 142

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “Basis for that comment?”

    I suppose one basis is that a number of U.S. soldiers have been court-martialed, convicted, and are serving prison terms for just that.

  114. 143

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Or does your imagination also insist those soldiers didn’t do anything and were merely persecuted by their own government for PR purposes, Puddy?

  115. 144

    sgmmac spews:

    Donna,
    Your point probably won’t stand in the history books. You don’t have to die from a bullet to be killed in action. All of the deaths from the Bataan Death Marches are men who died in WWII. Most of them died from dehydration, they were prisoners of war. Lots of men and some women died in Vietnam from accidents.

  116. 145

    sgmmac spews:

    @139
    You haven’t heard it before, because they are NOT saying it, but it is exactly what they are doing……… I’m not a damn politician and I don’t have to use flowery words, you wanted to know what the mission is and I told you.

  117. 147

    Michael spews:

    I think it makes your point weaker, not stronger, that we killed thousands of people in Kosovo when not a single native killed an American.

  118. 148

    sgmmac spews:

    Donna,
    No, actually there were probably a few more. It was a “good” war if you count in deaths. But, somewhere in these posts someone talked about how great it is that we arn’t there. We are there, whether it is under the US flag or the UN flag our soldiers have been there for years and it probably will continue for years. US Army soldiers are stationed in over 100 countries right now as I am typing this and have been since the 90s………

  119. 149

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal @ 147 “I think it makes your point weaker, not stronger, that we killed thousands of people in Kosovo when not a single native killed an American.”

    Only if you like lots of Americans killed. If you like lots of Americans killed, then I guess you really love Bush’s Iraq war.

    Oh, and you also hate Amreican Troops you fucking TRAITOR!

  120. 150

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac “US Army soldiers are stationed in over 100 countries right now as I am typing this and have been since the 90s……… ”

    Much longer than that. Much longer.

  121. 151

    Donnageddon spews:

    And sgmmac “actually there were probably a few more”

    Keep revising it upward based on your hunch.

    Doesn’t change my point in the least.

  122. 152

    Puddybud spews:

    since the 90s………

    Comment by sgmmac— 12/1/05 @ 10:36 am

    since the 90s……… ”

    Much longer than that. Much longer.

    Comment by Donnageddon— 12/1/05 @ 10:42 am

    Not my browser – Internet Explorer

  123. 153

    Puddybud spews:

    since the 90s………

    Comment by sgmmac— 12/1/05 @ 10:36 am

    since the 90s……… ”

    Much longer than that. Much longer.

    Comment by Donnageddon— 12/1/05 @ 10:42 am

    Not my browser – Netscape Browser

  124. 154

    Michael spews:

    @149 I don’t hate American troops, I was in the Army 1989-1999. You?

    I don’t like lots of American soldiers to be killed. Nor do I like for lots of soldiers from Kosovo to be killed. I especially do not like thousands of civilians to be killed by bombing indiscriminately from 40,000 ft. Is that what you like?

  125. 156

    Michael spews:

    @155 The software behind this board does not follow the “charset=iso-8859-1″ tag that it claims to follow in the HTML header tags.

  126. 157

    Donnageddon spews:

    Michael you lying sack of shit, NO AMERICA SOLDIER would ever say “I think it makes your point weaker, not stronger, that we killed thousands of people in Kosovo when not a single native killed an American”

    You were NEVER in the military and you are a traitor to every American Soldier.

    You fucking putz!

  127. 158

    Donnageddon spews:

    You be careful what you say Micheal, I do not take it lightly when some asshole pretends to be a soldier and then complains that not enough American Soldiers died in ANY war.

  128. 159

    Michael spews:

    @157 It is not traitorous to point out that you fail to hold Democrat presidents to the same standard you hold Republican presidents (“Iraq was not a threat to the US” but “It is ok for Clinton to kill thousands of civilians who were no threat to the US, in fact never killed a US person”). It is quite obvious who is the traitor here.

    You think I could not have been in the military because I thought the Kosovo operation was wrong, but I still followed orders? You don’t know much about the military. Clinton “loathed” the military, and believe me, it went both ways. But we did what we were told, because that’s what soldiers do. Soldiers do not make policy, voters and their elected officials do.

  129. 160

    Michael spews:

    @158 Never did I complain that not enough people died. Where are you guys getting this? I complained that TOO MANY people died, mostly innocent civilians!

  130. 161

    sgmmac spews:

    @59
    Back to your first question, Yes, it will take years to train and develop the Iraqi military Officers and NCOs into a very good Army. You asked whether Rumsfield and Pres Bush should have known, they probably did not know, their military leaders should have told them. I would be surprised if they didn’t. That said, I don’t know the working relationship of Rumsfield and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. My personal impression is that Rumsfield was very dominating with the last one. It does appear that the New Joint Chief of Staff, a Marine, isn’t rolling over for Rumsfield.

  131. 162

    Nindid spews:

    Michael @159

    “But we did what we were told, because that’s what soldiers do. Soldiers do not make policy, voters and their elected officials do.”

    This is a great point Michael and one that I think keeps getting lost amongst the constant politicization of the military. Frankly, I think constantly using the soldiers as props for press conferences and telling the military that half of the country are traitors and hate them is playing a very dangerous game with our country and is an insult to professionals who do a tough, dirty and dangerous job.

  132. 163

    sgmmac spews:

    @59
    Your second question on Murtha’s plan and what I think of it. I think his plan won’t work – at all. For a lot of different reasons. You can’t stop terrorist attacks from thousands of miles away or thousands of miles up in the air. Innocent Iraqis die from terrorist attacks everyday, but if the US started bombing again, many more would die in the collateral damage from very big bombs. If the US pulls back you will see Terrorist take over the police stations in numerous cities all over Iraq. You will bloodshed like you have never seen. Thousands upon thousands of Iraqis died after the first gulf war when we left from Sadaam’s revenge.

  133. 164

    Nindid spews:

    Sarge@161 – Marines will do that I suppose… (My father was a Marine in the late 60’s).

    In any case, if ‘staying the course’ means training up the army which will take many years how can Bush say with a straight face that ‘victory’ is just around the corner?

    I think what is really going on is that the Democrats plan as put forward by Murtha is the plan of the Pentagon generals. That is we reduce the footprint of our ground troops to lessen our profile as occupiers, while retaining a OTH presence supported by air power.

    That is the plan – Bush just wants to stall so he can claim victory in August and publicly pull troops out before the midterms.

    I really hope I am wrong, but to date this war has been run according to politics by Bush and the necons in Washington and in that sense is as bad as Vietnam.

  134. 165

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal “Traitor” @ 159 your first paragraph does a wonderful job at splling out exactly what I DID NOT SAY!.

    Your second paragraph starts off with this lie : “You think I could not have been in the military because I thought the Kosovo operation was wrong, but I still followed orders? ”

    No you are a traitor and most definetely NOT a soldier because you wish more americans had died in Kososvo.

    I simply stated that one of the most fundamental plans for ANY war is the minimizing of American Troop casualties.

    But tyhat is not good enough for you Micheal. You want MORE and MORE American blood to satisfy your war lust.

    You are a pathetic hollow man, Micheal.

  135. 166

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal, my comment is held up in the filter.

    Here is the synopsis: Your post @ 159 is a complete cowardly restatemnt of my argument.

    Any good war plan has to have as its first aim: Minimize American deaths.

    You don’t like that, because you need more American Blood for your sick psycho.

    You disgust me, you traiterous canker.

  136. 167

    sgmmac spews:

    @59
    The Iraqis want democracy. They are being trained very well – now. It took the US a long time to start the training, but it is going very well right now. There are lots of great things going on in Iraq, they just arn’t newsworthy because they are ordinary things like building sewage plants, schools, etc. When you have been intimadated and controlled for years by a vicious dictator it takes awhile to learn how to stand up for yourself and be independent. I’m a female, look how long it took us!

  137. 169

    Donnageddon spews:

    I have two friends just returned from Iraq, and your bullshit about building “sewage plants, schools, etc” is a bunch of crap.

    They are dodging bullets and IED’s and protecting contractors who are building bases, and trying to keep pipelines open.

    Quit spouting the propaganda already. No one is buy the BS from BushCo anymore.

    Especially the soldiers on the ground.

  138. 170

    Nindid spews:

    Sarge @162– What terrorists do you speak of? I don’t mean to be facetious, but the word ‘terrorist’ has been thrown around so much the past few years and now generally means something like anyone who opposes us through asymetrical warfare.

    Of the 35+ armed groups attacking US troops and the current Iraqi regime, the vast majority are based among the Sunni tribes. These groups are some mix of religious radicals and nationalists who oppose our occupation of the country. The latter is their only real claim to a nationwide following.

    The Shiite and Kurdish militias – which are now re-branded as the Iraqi Army – are waging operations against the Sunnis under cover of the legitimacy provided by their uniforms. Basically, we are presiding over a low-level civil war ala El Salvador.

    There are also the real foreign terrorists under al-Qaeda, but over all they are not a serious military threat.

    At some point – one I think long passed – the positives of our being the visible authority in Iraq will be outweighed by the negative impact we have by serving as a recruiting tool for terrorists.

    Do we completely withdraw? Of course not. We can’t. Pottery Barn and all that.

    But what more is to be gained by staying at the levels we have now? Does it come anywhere near justifying the costs?

    This war was a lose-lose proposition from the get go. But in the spirit of Michael and Sarge here, I would like to say how much the professionalism of the troops has impressed me through this.

  139. 171

    Michael spews:

    @163 how can Bush say with a straight face that ‘victory’ is just around the corner?

    Umm, I don’t think he did.

    “Bringing stability and unity to a free Iraq will not be easy…The work ahead is demanding. It will be difficult to help freedom take hold in a country that has known three decades of dictatorship, secret police, internal divisions, and war.”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news.....26-11.html

    “A campaign on harsh terrain in a vast country could be longer and more difficult than some have predicted. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable, and free country will require our sustained commitment.”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news.....30322.html

    “The path we are taking is not easy, and it may be long. ”
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news.....326-4.html

  140. 172

    sgmmac spews:

    @163, Gen Meyers was Air Force. I heard on TV that Rumsfield and the New Marine Joint Chief of Staff (JCS) disagreed on TV during a press conference. It was over torture. The JCS was/is correct, morally, legally, and ethically. I don’t know about that much about Murtha’s plan, just what the news has said. I am sure we will air coverage. Bush is planning to withdraw troops, that’s nothing new. The geography of the country and it’s harsh environment prohibit setting up one massive base logistically.
    Bush and Kerry actually are saying much the same thing and they have been for awhile.

  141. 174

    Michael spews:

    @164 I and any other soldier would find your statement traitorous:

    Any good war plan has to have as its first aim: Minimize American deaths.

    You are saying its ok to bomb whomever you want indiscriminately as long as no servicemembers are killed. That is NOT how soldiers think! The first aim is to accomplish the mission that you are assigned. You work from there on minimizing the risk of accomplishing that mission.

    By your logic, the best thing to do in Kosovo was to never go there in the first place, because no Americans were in danger to begin with.

  142. 175

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal above lied again with “You are saying its ok to bomb whomever you want indiscriminately as long as no servicemembers are killed. ”

    No, Micheal I did not say that. So that makes you a … whats the word…?

    Oh yeah, A LIAR!

  143. 177

    sgmmac spews:

    Donna,
    Both, unfortunately are true. They are building infastructure all over the country. Yes, there are soldiers dodging bullets every day. It is all going on at the same time. Soldiers live in a vacuum. They see their immediate world of where they live and operate. There are infantry, medics, truck drivers, supply clerks, bull dozer operators, finance clerks, admin clerks and hundreds of other job titles over there all working every day.

  144. 179

    Michael spews:

    I think my summarization of what you said was closer to the truth than you saying that I wished more Americans had died. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

  145. 180

    Nindid spews:

    Michael@ 176 Sorry Don, but I think Michael is right in this case, though his original post left room to read him that way.

    Oh, also Michael, I know Bush says it may be a long road, but a quote I heard this morning also said something to the effect of ‘How can we pull out troops when we have almost won.’ It was before my first coffee so I can’t remember where I read it, but if I find it I will post it.

  146. 181

    sgmmac spews:

    @59
    Your third question was about readiness and equipment. I was a Logistician. From what I am hearing on the news and knowing what the Iraqi Army had, their logistics systems are in poor shape and they are working on it to improve it. There are several different ways to look at our systems. For years our systems have improved, but there has throughout the years been severe money constraints on our military overall. The readiness of the Guard and Reserves has always felt the worst impact from a lack of dollars, with the active duty military getting first priority. This war has also changed requirements – drastically. The fight over why did we send soldiers without proper equipment to war illustrates it well. We never had that stuff in the first place, let alone for war. Vehicle armor isn’t sitting in warehouse shelfs waiting, it had to be manufactured.

  147. 183

    Donnageddon spews:

    Nindid @ 177, no need to apologise for being wrong.

    Micheal, or Nindid, please show me the error of my ways. Where did I come even CLOSE to saying “You are saying its ok to bomb whomever you want indiscriminately as long as no servicemembers are killed”

    Proceed.

  148. 184

    sgmmac spews:

    @175
    nah, I can’t type either,
    I DON”T do Kool-aid, might start though since I have a grandson on the way very soon!

  149. 185

    Donnageddon spews:

    And Please tell me how ” think it makes your point weaker, not stronger, that we killed thousands of people in Kosovo when not a single native killed an American”
    can be interpreted as anything but a complaint that in Kosovo, the military strategy was poor because not enough Americans were killed.

    Proceed.

  150. 186

    sgmmac spews:

    @168
    The troop levels are high now for the December elections. I don’t follow the death totals. How many died the first 6 months, the second 6 months, the third 6 months, the last 6 months? It seems to me that the numbers are going down and it is slowly improving.

  151. 187

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac @ 183, you can find the casualty counts here. As you can see the death toll has remained fairly constant since the “mission accomplished” banner.

    Roughly 3 American Soldiers dead every day.

  152. 190

    Michael spews:

    @186 704 deaths in the last 10 monthe. 905 deaths in the 10 months before that. I would call that improvement. Or do you want more deaths?

  153. 191

    sgmmac spews:

    I looked at your link and bookmarked it. Conditions are not degrading. The deaths may increase in December though because of the elections.

  154. 192

    Donnageddon spews:

    Keep them rose colored glasses on Micheal and sgmmac. But you know it is a lie. Falujah, Tikrit… none of it has made a dent in the insurgency and impending civil war.

    And Micheal, you still think 704 deaths vz 905 is an “improvement” huh?

  155. 193

    Donnageddon spews:

    I thought for a small moment this morning that sgmmac would turn out to be one of them honest conservatives. But with post 165 and now 188, I am beginning to think the honest conservative is extinct.

  156. 194

    Michael spews:

    @189 And Micheal, you still think 704 deaths vz 905 is an “improvement” huh?

    Yes, I do. And the fact that you don’t says a lot about you.

  157. 196

    spews:

    Bush LIED during his speech (his lips were moving weren’t they?)…no, really:

    (from think progress via AmericaBlog.com)

    http://thinkprogress.org/2005/.....-reporter/

    “TIME Magazine reporter Michael Ware, who is embedded with the U.S. troops in Iraq who participated in the Tal Afar battle, appeared on Anderson Cooper yesterday. He said Bush’s description was completely untrue:

    I was in that battle from the very beginning to the very end. I was with Iraqi units right there on the front line as they were battling with al Qaeda. They were not leading. They were being led by the U.S. green beret special forces with them.”

  158. 197

    sgmmac spews:

    Donna, Donna, Donna,
    You are making me laugh. I am very honest, I just have a more positive view of our soldiers than you do. Have you heard me say that there weren’t any mistakes made in this war? Have you heard me say that going into Iraq was well planned and well thought out?

  159. 198

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal @ 191, the fact that 2 1/2 years into this occupation 704 American Soldiers died in the sands of Iraq is a DISASTER!!! IT is a sign of the degrading situation. It should be Far Far lower.

    But a blood hungry soldier-hating monst3er like you never gets enough American blood do you. You sick Fuck!

  160. 199

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac you stated @ 165 “lots of great things going on in Iraq, they just arn’t newsworthy because they are ordinary things like building sewage plants, schools, etc. ”

    That is as out of touch with reality as it gets.

  161. 200

    sgmmac spews:

    Donna,
    Iraqis do want democracy. Have you forgotten those smiling women holding up their purple fingers? Have you forgotten the circles of men holding arms and dancing in the streets because they VOTED? Think about it. They voted. They stood in lines with suicide bombers to vote, some even had to step over dead bodies to stand in line and vote. They are babies at this new thing called democracy. Egyptians are demanding to vote, there are even Saudi’s who are demanding to vote.

  162. 202

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac, you really should work for the Bush Admin’s propaganda department. You got it down pat.

  163. 204

    sgmmac spews:

    @196
    Donna, I’m sorry if your news hasn’t said that. It is however true, The Iragi infastructure is being built up, reconstructed or whatever you want to call it. There are civilian contractors all over Iraq. Fox news had a special a few days ago and showed a video tour of a huge sewage plant being constructed. Another Fox correspondent spent some time in Iran and she showed Iranian women doing some pretty amazing things like racing cars and playing golf. They were still covered with their head scarfs and long garments, but they are improving.

  164. 205

    Michael spews:

    @195 Micheal @ 191, the fact that 2 1/2 years into this occupation 704 American Soldiers died in the sands of Iraq is a DISASTER!!! IT is a sign of the degrading situation.

    Was the fact that 4,900 US soldiers were killed in one day on June 6, 1944, 2 1/2 years into WWII, a sign of the degrading situation?

  165. 206

    sgmmac spews:

    @199,
    No, definitely not, I was well known in the Army for saying what I think and for telling my bosses what they didn’t really want to hear. I once told a General that something was “all f’d up.” My Colonel almost had a heartattack.

  166. 207

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal @ 202 Do you honestly think that example is even close to appropriate? Or does Honesty frighten you?

  167. 208

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac @ 201 “Donna, I’m sorry if your news hasn’t said that. It is however true”

    Not accorcxing to the people who have BEEN THERE. If you are going to start wuoting FOX correspondents, then I have very little more to discuss with you. FOX News is an oxymoron.

  168. 209

    Donnageddon spews:

    But a few years ago, FOX News had coverage of how aliens built the Pyramids. Perhaps it was the same correspondent.

  169. 210

    sgmmac spews:

    @206
    I would not surprise me. I have heard that many times before on other stations. As a matter of fact, I also heard something similar about the Easter Islands. And how about those hobbits that they found recently along with huge lizards and dwarf elephants? Our world is a strange place, God made us, we crawled out of the primal ooze, we are the descendents of aliens, who knows the truth?

  170. 211

    Donnageddon spews:

    BTW in the last 12 months 852 American Soldiers Died in Iraq

    The previous 12 months 816 American Soldiers died in Iraq.

    Like I said the situation in Iraq is Degrading, not improving.

  171. 212

    JCH spews:

    I think “DON” and Roger Rabitt should get more posts!!! [hehe…….kind of like an election in Harare or Broward County!!]

  172. 215

    JCH spews:

    QUICK SHOUT OUT TO JCH! Happy Rosa Parks Anniversery!

    Comment by Donnageddon — 12/1/05 @ 7:25 am [Er, “DON”…….Happy “Tookie Williams” Day!!!!!

  173. 216

    Donnageddon spews:

    prriss, in November 85 American soldiers died in Iraq. There are only 4 months in the last 2 years with a greater death toll.

    Don’t matter if they die in Suicide Bombings, or IEDs. They are just as dead, and the situation is just as Fucked up.

    But a chicken hawk coward like you would understand that.

  174. 217

    JCH spews:

    Kill the enemy with B-52s!! I think we will find that the terrorists will not fight quite so hard when their women and children are dead. If they bitch, repeat the B-52s strikes!! [“War is Hell, and I aim to give it to them”. W. T. Sherman, 1864

  175. 218

    Donnageddon spews:

    As the URL you posted states

    But the trend in Iraq has not resulted in less bloodshed: 85 U.S. troops died during the month, one of the highest tolls since the invasion.

  176. 219

    Daddy Love spews:

    ASS @ 55
    Not only woyuld you have to be an idiot to assume that when the article says “On Dec. 11, the Canlis family will celebrate the restaurant’s 55th anniversary with a $1,000-per-person dinner. All proceeds — every dollar — will be donated to Seattle’s FareStart, which provides meals to the hungry and homeless and offers food-service job training and placement. (For reservations: 206-298-9550.)” that they mean every dollar COLLECTED and not every dollar after expenses, but I also went to the trouble to spend 2 minutes and call the number, where they assured me that the Canlis family is DONATING food, labor, and premises for this charity, and every dolalr COLLECTED wil;l be donated to FareStart.

    You may apologize to the “liberal elites” now. AND you may applaud them for using a private charity and not a pulbic program to help the hungry. Isn’t that what you conservative elites prefer? You’d think a word of praise would not be hard to come by.

  177. 220

    Michael spews:

    @218 The 4 months with over 100 deaths were all 10 months or more ago, we aren’t seeing 100 deaths/month these days. That is a good thing.

  178. 221

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @56

    “Oh, and by the way, you might want to check out this article before you falsely claim that no US soldiers have been killed in Kosovo: http://www.usatoday.com/news/i.....so1050.htm

    Michael — no U.S. soldiers were killed IN COMBAT in Kosovo. That’s what people mean when they say no U.S. soldiers were killed in Kosovo. Accidents aren’t counted as combat casualties.

  179. 222

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    REPUBLICANS CUT AND RUN

    @9 — “Better a President with a National Strategy for Victory in Iraq than a cowardly party of defeat with a plan for surrender…”

    Is that so?

    Let’s talk about “cut and run,” and Bush’s disingenuous employment of the phrase.

    “Cut and run” is merely an epithet Bush is flinging at his critics. Like so much of what he says, it fits on a bumper sticker, but isn’t a plan.

    You can’t win a war simply by saying you won’t “cut and run.” Merely mouthing the words means nothing. In fact, Bush doesn’t have a victory strategy; he has a cut and run strategy.

    After 2 years of combat, the Iraqi insurgency continues at full bore, so it’s obvious the job isn’t getting done with the existing force level. Yet, Bush has no plan to raise the force level or escalate the war. Rather, he is pursuing a “Vietnamization” strategy. That’s what presidents do when they can’t win a war and need a face-saving way to get out. It’s not a formula for victory, and doesn’t produce victory. It simply makes defeat look a bit less ignominious.

  180. 223

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 220

    Nov. 2005 – 85
    Oct. 2005 – 96
    Sep. 2005 – 49
    Aug. 2005 – 85
    July 2005 – 54
    June 2005 – 78
    May 2005 – 80
    Apr. 2005 – 52
    Mar. 2005 – 30
    Feb. 2005 – 58
    Jan. 2005 – 107
    Dec. 2004 – 72
    Nov. 2004 – 137
    Oct. 2004 – 63
    Sep. 2004 – 80
    Aug. 2004 – 66
    July 2004 – 54
    June 2004 – 42
    May 2004 – 80
    Apr. 2004 – 135
    Mar. 2004 – 52
    Feb. 2004 – 20
    Jan. 2004 – 47
    Dec. 2003 – 40
    Nov. 2003 – 82
    Oct. 2003 – 44
    Sep. 2003 – 31
    Aug. 2003 – 35
    July 2003 – 48
    June 2003 – 30
    May 2003 – 37
    Apr. 2003 – 74
    Mar. 2003 – 65

    Total KIAs 2,1114 / 33 mos. = 65 avg. per mo.
    KIAs last 10 mos. 667 / 10 mos. = 66.7 avg. per mo.

    http://icasualties.org/oif/

    http://icasualties.org/oif/

  181. 224

    yearight spews:

    Judging by the extra vile spewed by the lefties on HA it appears that GW hit a grand slam with his speech. There is a sense of worry on the left now that we may actually win in Iraq.

    This war is looking quite different from Viet Nam, in that when the vets return home they will have reason to spit on the so-called ‘progressives’ who worked so hard to cut them off at the knees and empower the enemy.

  182. 225

    Donnageddon spews:

    RR @ 222 , don’t bother, there is never enough dead American Soldiers for Michael.

    The trend is from Horrible to Horrific.

    But Micheal craves more.

  183. 226

    Donnageddon spews:

    yearight @ 223 “vets return home they will have reason to spit on the so-called ‘progressives’”

    No yearight, they will spit on the Neo-Cons that sent them there without the proper gear, and while they were gone cut their benefits.

    It’s gonna be a real phlem fest for the Neo-Cons.

    Wear a rain coat, and carry an umbrella.

  184. 227

    yearight spews:

    Donnageddon-225

    ‘No yearight, they will spit on the Neo-Cons..’

    You must be relying on the few vets speaking out against the war. I am talking about the tens of thousands who think the mission is going well and that the US is doing the right thing. We obviously (and thankfully) move in different circles.

    ‘..that sent them there without the proper gear..’

    I have always wondered, why after fighting Gulf War I and having 8 years of dancing with Saddam in the desert would there not be proper equipment to fight a war in Iraq?

    ‘..and while they were gone cut their benefits.’

    Agree that this was bad. Didn’t the benefit reductions get canned? Why on earth is re-enlistment up?

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....-dod01.htm

  185. 228

    hardovertoport spews:

    sgnnc@204: “There are civilian contractors all over Iraq”.
    Of course their are. It’s a windfall for Halliburton (Cheneys old company, and various subsidiaries, KBR, etc) Did you think it was ONLY about oil? No. It’s about enriching other US contracting companies too. Of course, why shouldn’t US companies get the contracts to rebuild the infastructure – after all, it was the US that took it out. Talk about war profiteering! And you think that’s a good thing?

  186. 229

    Donnageddon spews:

    yearight @226

    We obviously (and thankfully) move in different circles.”

    I agree. I prefer reality.

    >blockquote> I have always wondered, why after fighting Gulf War I and having 8 years of dancing with Saddam in the desert would there not be proper equipment to fight a war in Iraq?

    Me too. Incompitence, is all I can figure.

    Why on earth is re-enlistment up?

    Lowered goals?

  187. 230

    sgmmac spews:

    @227
    I have never thought it was about the oil. Yes, I think it’s a good thing that it is being rebuilt, we did blow it up. I also think it’s a good thing because many of those KBR employees are EX-military veterans, KBR does all of the life support stuff for our soldiers over there. I like the fact that they are eating decent food, watching TV when they can, and that they can have a shower and use kinda normal toilets.

  188. 231

    Mom spews:

    You liberals bitch about the number of soldiers that have died
    but I would bet money that not one of you miserable cocksuckers
    have an American Flag flying in front of your house!

  189. 232

    sgmmac spews:

    @226 & 228
    You two are kidding, right? Do you have any idea how drastically President Clinton & Congress chopped the military to pieces after the first Gulf War? In fairness to Clinton, they did the same exact thing after Vietnam.

  190. 233

    sgmmac spews:

    And the unions are firing all of the state workers who didn’t join or pay dues…….. democracy in action!

  191. 234

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac “Do you have any idea how drastically President Clinton & Congress chopped the military to pieces after the first Gulf War?”

    No fan of Clinton here, but I assume you are talking about the Newt Gingrich “Contract On America” Republican Congress, Right?

    In fairness to Clinton, he was the best Republican President we have had since Ike.

  192. 235

    Donnageddon spews:

    sgmmac “the unions are firing all of the state workers who didn’t join or pay dues”

    Hmmm. since when do unions fire anyone? I think your “un-reality, kool aid-drinking” side is showing.

  193. 236

    Donnageddon spews:

    Man I love being a liberal progressive. Reality is like clean air! You just can’t beat it!

  194. 237

    Michael spews:

    @221 and 222

    You say that deaths due to accidents don’t count in 221, then turn around and include accidental deaths in your figures in 222. Make up your mind.

  195. 238

    Michael spews:

    @234 More than 700 state workers could lose their jobs if they do not cooperate with their unions and agree to pay for their representation.

    Two unions, the Teamsters and the Washington Federation of State Employees, have given the Labor Relations Office names of workers who have been repeatedly contacted but have not turned in their union cards — as required by the contracts that went into effect July 1.

    “I still truly believe in my heart of hearts that these people didn’t pay attention and it’s an oversight on their part,” said federation spokesman Tim Welch.

    State workers in union bargaining units — about 53,000 in general government — negotiated their first contracts to address pay issues last year, but the contracts are also the first to require workers to either join the unions and pay dues or, if they decline membership, to pay fees for representation.

    Not paying the dues or fees is a violation of the contract and grounds for termination.
    http://www.theolympian.com/app...../511150304

  196. 240

    marks spews:

    Donna @199

    sgmmac you stated @ 165 “lots of great things going on in Iraq, they just arn’t newsworthy because they are ordinary things like building sewage plants, schools, etc. ”
    That is as out of touch with reality as it gets.

    Oh, yeah? I had the pleasure and privilege of hearing from Johnny not long ago. He has an entirely different view of things…Mainly, that life in Iraq is indeed much better than your ideas or ideals of dictatorial rule.

  197. 241

    Donnageddon spews:

    RR, If you don’t mind, let me kick Micheal’s nuts with a fresh breath of REALITY!

    The figures in 222 DO NOT INCLUDE ACCIDENTAL DEATHS ASSHOLE!!!

    Them figures is from the Defense Department for Battle Field Casualties.

    Still not enbough for the Micheal Ghoul!!!

    You are one sick fuck!

  198. 245

    Michael spews:

    @239 The figures in 222 DO NOT INCLUDE ACCIDENTAL DEATHS ASSHOLE!!!

    Look, dumbass. There is a table at http://icasualties.org/oif/ near the top left corner that says:

    U.S. Deaths Confirmed By The DoD: 2110
    Reported U.S. Deaths Pending DoD Confirmation: 4
    Total 2114
    DoD Confirmation List

    Now click on the DoD Confirmation List.
    That takes you to http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx
    This enumerates the 2114 people that their statistics are based on.
    Now click on Pearrow, Eric P.
    Sgt. 1st Class Eric P. Pearrow, 40, of Peoria, Ill., died in Baghdad, Iraq, on Nov. 24, when his M1A2 Abrams tank accidentally rolled over into a canal.

    Now try clicking on Christensen, Ryan D.
    Pfc. Ryan D. Christensen, 22, of Spring Lake Heights, N.J., died at the Medical University of Charleston in Charleston, S.C., on Nov. 24, of a non-combat related illness identified in Balad, Iraq, on Nov. 10.

    Now, anything else you want to argue about?

  199. 246

    Donnageddon spews:

    marks… you got me. I didn’t read it. I prefer to see what people have to say. With support of URLs when necessary. But I rarely click a URL with no supporting information.

  200. 248

    sgmmac spews:

    @234
    The letters went out, people have until mid Dec to pay or else. The letters may have been signed by a state employee, but that employee works for the union….. Same difference.

  201. 249

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal… These are the OFFICIAL Battle field deaths acknowledged by the DOD. I realize that the actual death toll in Iraq is magnatudes higher. The rules for “Battle field deaths” are arcane and loosely derived.

    But the deaths reported are the BTTLE FIELD DEATHS, as descibed by our governement.

    You have a problem with that, take it uip with Rumsfield, you fucking ghoul!

  202. 251

    Donnageddon spews:

    Really Micheal, you are so poorly informed, and so itching to make a point for the Neo-Cons, I almost want to cut you some slack. But when it comes to dead American Soldiers… I cant. You can try to spin their deaths to support your sick philosophy, but I will not let that stand.

    You are part of the problem. You are the machine that kills soldiers.

    You need help, or a good proactive suicide consultant.

  203. 252

    Michael spews:

    @247 I posted counterexamples of your claim including an accidental death, a death from a noncombat related disease, and a death that happened in South Carolina all from the top 10 most recent deaths from the website that YOU provided, http://icasualties.org/oif/ Only a liberal could continue arguing that that site’s statistics only represent combat related casualties.

  204. 253

    sgmmac spews:

    @233
    I don’t know when Gingrich made his contract. Very possible. After wars, Presidents & Congress get heady and focus on domestic things, in almost all cases after major wars, the military suffers from a lack of money, equipment, etc. Reagan came along after Vietnam and ‘fixed’ the military, so to speak.
    I liked Clinton and I almost voted for him.

  205. 254

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal said at 250 “Only a liberal could continue arguing that that site’s statistics only represent combat related casualties.”

    Finally Micheal, the ghoul. Present ANY official statistic that disagrees with the official Iraq Casualty list than the one presented at http://icasualties.org/oif/

    If you can find ANY credible source that differs within 100 battle field deaths with this source.
    $20 to the Republican party.

  206. 255

    Donnageddon spews:

    “$20 to the Republican party.”

    should read

    “I will give $20 to the Republican party”

  207. 256

    marks spews:

    Donna @233

    In fairness to Clinton, he was the best Republican President we have had since Ike.

    On this you have been consistent, and I commend you…even as I disagree.

  208. 257

    Donnageddon spews:

    C’mon Micheal, put your goulish blood craving nature to the test… I am not even asking you to wager any money!

  209. 258

    GS spews:

    There is a strategy, Kick their ass, then go back and kick their ass again. A great many in their leadership are dead or captured! The few remaining are running with great US and Iraq troops on their ass every day! They will be found!

    52 million people now have their freedom in Iraq and Afagastan!

    A Great legacy

  210. 260

    Michael spews:

    @252 I am not the one disagreeing with the report, you are.

    http://icasualties.org/oif/BY_DOD.aspx clearly lists Pearrow, Eric P., who died in an accident, and Christensen, Ryan D., who died in South Carolina due to a noncombat related illness. What part of that do you not understand?

  211. 261

    marks spews:

    Um, who are you talking to Donna? If it is me, I disagree with the idea Bill Clinton was a Republican.

  212. 262

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal, I am not responsible for who is reported as a battle field death what part of that do you not understand?

    This is decided by the DOD.

    Again, you could make good money by proving me wrong! Go for it!

  213. 264

    Michael spews:

    @260 I didn’t say you were responsible, I said you were an idiot. Are you still standing by your claim that “The figures in 222 DO NOT INCLUDE ACCIDENTAL DEATHS ASSHOLE!!!”?

  214. 265

    Donnageddon spews:

    marks, I was talking to everyone reading HA. If you disagree with my opinion that Clinton was a Republican. Go ahead and post your complaint!

  215. 268

    Michael spews:

    @265 Do you lie about the dead, or do you lie about the dead? I am not the one making easily disproved claims about the dead to try to score political points.

  216. 270

    Donnageddon spews:

    Micheal… …. …. Bed time for you. More soldiers will be dead in the morning. The you can demand that more dead soldiers replace them.

  217. 271

    Donnageddon spews:

    marks, disagreement with out an ounce of evidence is worthless.

    No, have you been drinking?

    Pass the bottle you lush!

  218. 273

    Dr. E spews:

    256
    “There is a strategy, Kick [sic] their ass, then go back and kick their ass again. A great many in their leadership are dead or captured! The few remaining are running with great US and Iraq [sic] troops on their ass every day! They will be found!

    52 million people now have their freedom in Iraq and Afagastan! [sic]

    A Great legacy”

    This will probably go down as the stupidest post of the day.

  219. 274

    GS spews:

    And I feel truely blessed to have such an ignorant liberal as yourself reviewing my position!

  220. 276

    Dr. E spews:

    274

    On what authority do you label me “ignorant”? Your position smacks of ignorance of the history of both Iraq and Afghanistan.

  221. 278

    Michael spews:

    Here you go Donna. Official military website:

    Operation Iraqi Freedom (through November 26, 2005)
    1,643 Hostile deaths
    457 Nonhostile deaths

    Therefore if you are looking at numbers over 2,000 (like http://icasualties.org/oif/, who reports 2123 US deaths), THOSE NUMBERS INCLUDE NONHOSTILE DEATHS.

    Let me know when your $20 contribution has been made.

  222. 281

    headless lucy spews:

    How many times has the 3rd man in charge of al Qaida been killed or captured? Quite a few by my recollection. The war against terrorism is like the war against drugs. If you win the war, you lose your free ride at the x-pense of the U.S. Taxpayer. I think this alone accounts for many of the obviously misguided and stupid things this administration does in the “war on terror”.

    It’s a war on yours and your childrens’ presnt and future. It must be a wonderful thing for the Reps to know that 40% percent of the electorate will support what you do— even if the equivalent of sticking a hot poker up their asses!