As reported on Publicola, Seattle budget planners have run some numbers to illustrate the potential impact of I-1033 on city revenues, and it’s pretty grim. Indeed, had I-1033 been implemented in 2001, property tax revenues from the city’s regular levy would be reduced to zero by 2015.
That’ right, zero. Zilch. Nada. Bupkis.
I assume the planners started with 2001 because it too was a down year, and would provide an opportunity to neatly illustrate the “ratcheting down” effect of our current recession… that is, every time revenues drop, the baseline from which future revenue lids are calculated is reset even lower. This 2001 starting point also benefits from using real numbers to date, so unless you believe we have finally banished the economic cycle, there’s no reason to expect a 2010 implementation of I-1033 to behave much differently.
Thus whether it takes fifteen years or ten or twenty, I-1033 would eventually and inevitably eliminate Seattle’s regular levy, the portion of the city property tax that does not require the prior approval of voters. I suppose there are some on the right who would argue that this would be a good thing… I just wish they’d do so publicly and honestly instead of attempting to trick voters with deceptive measures like I-1033.
Eyman Is Right …
Although, as Goldy pointed out last Thursday in his “Washington’s Affordable Government” thread, the overall share of prsonal income going to state and local taxes has fallen from 10.4% in 1994 to 8.9% in 2008, that’s an average.
And the average doesn’t mean much because the tax burden isn’t distributed evenly.
While I don’t have exact figurees at hand it seems likely the tax burden on lower income groups, where our regressive state/local tax system concentrates taxes, has increased over time. That’s been offset by a decreasing tax burden on our richest citizens, but that doesn’t do the people paying higher taxes any good.
You see, our regressive tax system isn’t static. Under it, the share of the tax burden falling on those least able to pay is accelerating.
That’s why people are complaining about taxes and voting for Eyman’s tax-limiting initiatives — because they know they’re paying higher taxes. When you don’t have much income to start with you feel tax increases very quickly … and you get very upset about it.
For over a year now, I’ve said repetitively on this blog that nothing will be possible in this state — not better schools, or better libraries, or better public services of any kind — until we fix the tax system, because we can’t keep loading more taxes on those least able to pay.
And this is precisely the group that Eyman panders to, and where he finds a receptive audience for his anti-tax appeals.
And, too, this is where Governor Gregoire has failed progressives miserably. We believe in government as an instrument of good. We want better schools, libraries, and public services. But by refusing to support, or work for, tax reform Gregoire has guaranteed the long-term success of the anti-tax agenda pushed by the likes of Eyman and teabaggers. Under a tax system that continues to shift more and more of the overall tax burden to those with the lowest incomes, the outcome cannot be not in doubt. In the absence of tax reform, Eyman is right and will continue to be right — some people are paying higher taxes, these taxpayers can’t afford the amount of goverment we’re putting on their backs, and they will go to teabag rallies and vote for I-1033 and every other tax-cutting initiative that comes down the pike.
That’s why we need a new governor. Thank you for your service, Christine, but our state needs someone who has something you don’t have: Guts.
how stupid is spending our way out of debt?
Exactly! What is the Governor and the Legislature afraid of? Is being voted out of office that frightening? I have great respect for elected leaders doing just that – leading, even if I don’t agree. The Democrats in Olympia, and the Governor in particular, have totally dropped the ball on fixing our tax system and are failing every resident as a result.
Unfortunately there is no discussions of any of the aleternatives to the present system and what they entail.
The press and the politicians are pretty closed lip on the issue which contributes to the problem.
@2 You’re either Little Ricky Dumbass or a new troll who’s as stupid as LRD, which heretofore was thought impossible.
Nobody’s trying to spend us out of debt, you dumb retard! The Bush administration spent us into debt and crashed the global economy. The Obama administration is spending us further into debt to keep the Bush Crash from becoming another Great Depression. Every reputable economist on the planet agrees that’s the right thing to do.
Sometime he has a spare moment, after all of this is over, ask Ben Bernanke — a Bush appointee and Great Depression scholar — to explain to you why it’s the sensible thing to do. And what would happen if President Obama didn’t do it. (See, e.g., Herbert Hoover in 1932.)
It’s a bit annoying to have some dumb cluck like you come along and pontificate out of his ass about things he knows nothing about. Economics isn’t your forte, you stupid shit. So maybe you should keep your hands off it, and stick with doing oil changes and spark plug gapping, and let educated grownups deal important stuff like whether there’s going to be an American auto industry or whether an entire generation of Americans will have jobs to go to — subjects on which you are in waaaaaay over your head little boy.
@4 There’s been plenty of discussion about alternatives to the present tax system. In fact, the Legislature commissioned a major study of the subject, led by attorney William H. Gates Sr. with participation of academics, economists, and business and labor leaders. You can read their report, discussion of alternatives, and recommendations here:
http://dor.wa.gov/content/abou.....report.htm
The best-known and most frequently discussed of these alternatives is replacing the state sales and B & O taxes with a state income tax.
The sales tax is a regressive tax that falls mainly on lower income taxpayers, and leaves a large share of affluent households’ income completely untaxed. The B & O tax falls disproportionately on small businesses, and is a job-killer that discourages entrepreneurs from starting new businesses and drives struggling enterprises out of business.
The Gates study found the poorest 20% of Washington households pay 17% of their income to state and local taxes, while the richest 20% pay only 4% of theirs. Replacing the state’s two most regressive taxes with a flat-rate, revenue-neutral, income tax would redistribute some of the tax burden to where it belongs: Evenly across the entire state population in proportion to income and ability to pay.
This approach is not to be confused with a recently-discussed idea, i.e. imposing a state income tax on income above $250,000. That’s not one of the alternatives that was considered or discussed by the Gates Commission. That tax would provide no relief from the sales or B & O taxes, and is in no way similar to the proposal described above.
Roger ..
good post.
@7 Of course it is! I’m always good! Our wingnut friends are too dumb to realize it, that’s all. =:-D<
Two new businessmen in Seattle named David Goldstein and Darryl Bonehead were sitting down for a break in their soon-to-be new store. As yet the store wasn’t ready with only a few shelves set up.
Goldy said to Darryl ‘I bet any minute now some senior is going to walk by put his face to the window and ask what we’re selling.’ No sooner
were the words out of David’s mouth when sure enough a curious senior walked to the window had a peek and in a soft voice asked “What are you selling here?”
David Goldstein replied sarcastically “We’re selling ass-holes.” and giggled to Darryl.
Without skipping a beat, the old timer said “You’re doing well. Only two left.”
@9 Oh, poor little boy, are Goldy and Darryl getting on your nerves?
G O O D !!!!!
HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR
Roger Rawbutt
seems as if this Troll has the usual gender issues .. a focus in his cases on the anus and its effluent.
SJ is considering clasifying Trolls by thier fixations
Major categories:
AF .. anal fixation
TS .. Taxes Stop
FD .., fact denial (global warming, Obama’s birth) (include global warming denial)
MG .. My God, MY God
FG .. wants to Fuck God
GLB .. God Luvs Boobelah
SM .. Surely Mad
MF … Mother Fucker
additional terms welcome.
RRawbut is obviously afflicted with AF with a bit of MF.
Damn Feral Dumb Bunny, that was a great joke!
Roger …
Can you ‘spalin* to me how thee old timer could count the numbers of ass holes present. My understanding of this topic is not as extensive as yours, but (pun) isn’t an ass hole siomiular to a bagel hole? I thought the supply of such holes was infinite?
Is that the joke? The old guy wanted to pay for waht he could get for free?
#Beckism as in “can spalin to me how come the Evergreen Freedom Founbdation is tied to the SEIU? “
I think I will get into debt,….then, in an attempt to get out of that debt, I will get into more debt.
Since the feds think it will work, why shouldnt I try it?
@12 What joke? I didn’t tell any jokes in this thread.
@5…that post is exactly why short term thinkers running our govt have gotten us into this mess in the first place.
you are a fool, just like they are.
@13 I thought an “asshole” was a wingnut turned inside out.
@14 Try reading a little Krugman, or something else written by a Nobel Prize winner, if you want to know how it works.
Poor glort must be a student of non-history.
In fact, we got out of the great depression by spending ourselves out of it. We would have gotten out of it sooner, but some idiots (read: republcians) tried to balance the budget in the midsts of the great depression and it took the massive war spending deficits to get us out of the depression, stimulate the economy and then back to more balanced budgets.
You see, when the private sector is contracting…only government can spend to get things moving again.
What private sector companies making a big profits or having huge cash reserves have been hiring people like crazy?
Answer: None
Even Microsoft is laying off people despite profits (albeit lower profits).
@18….the “experts” have gotten us into trillions of dollars of debt….
I think I’m done listening to those “experts”.
I know your old cranky ass doesnt care about the debt, because your type dont give a fuck if the grandkids pay for it – you will be dead and gone.
I cant wait until all my new credit cards get here: Im gonna spend SPEND SPEND….and then I will be rich and out of debt!
@18…you mean like that other nobel prize winner obama? hahahahhahah
damn, my dick has done more for world peace than he has…
Two failed businessmen named Puddy Ima Coolcat and Mr. Klinic Ally Ensane were sitting down for a break in their soon-to-be new virtual store on the shores of Lake Washington. The dumb but bynakic duo had figured out how to erect their store in a rowboat anchored in thge tidal waters off of Paul Allen’s home.
As yet the store wasn’t ready with only a few shelves set up.
Puddy said to Mr. C ‘I bet any minute now some librul is going to swin by and put his face to the window and ask what we’re selling.’
No sooner were the words out of the Pudsters whiskers when sure enough a curious librul sturgeon swan up to the window and looked up at the two small business humanoids.
Being librul, and concerned for the mentally challenged retarded humanoids aka Trolls), she politely knocked and in a soft voice asked “What are you selling here?”
With great cleverness, Mr. K replied sarcastically “We’re selling ass-holes.” and wagged his bobbed tail to Puddy.
Without skipping a beat, the kind but not yet highloyn evolved librul said “Let me help.”
So the librul fish patiently explained to the dim moothbreathing cat and dumber klinical that ass holes could not be sold, they could only be earned by hard work.
This sturgeon might not be fully ossified,m but she was smart fish. She introduced the Trolls to the new government funded program for remnant reprican ass holes, run of course, by ACORN.
Mr. K excelled … learning lubrication, deep cleansing, and the expulsion fo sweetly flavored gas.
Puddy, sadly, could not leave his cat box and never, ever learned the needed skills fro defecation productively. But the cat excelled in the smelly urine category and earned his diploma as a first class pisser!
such sophomoric garbage from a UW prof? HAHAHAHHAH, thank god for private universities.
@14, 16 — You truly are a dumb shit. It doesn’t work for you because you’re not a government and therefore can’t create money. I won’t even bother trying to explain M1, M2, and M3 to you, because I’m sure that’s way over your head. For the benefit of other readers here, when the credit markets imploded, private investors sucked about 3 trillion dollars of cash out of the financial markets and parked it in Treasuries, where it’s earning essentially nothing and producing nothing. This created an abrupt contraction of the money supply that threatened to throw the economy into a deflationary spiral unless the government’s central bank offset it by injecting cash into circulation. This was done through tax rebates and stimulus spending. From the economic standpoint, it doesn’t matter what this money is spent on; what’s important is that it gets into circulation. Now, when the government creates a huge new money supply, that would normally cause inflation, but not in this case because this money is simply replacing money the private sector withdrew from circulation. The trick is to take it out of circulation when all that private money parked in Treasuries starts making its way back into the economy, and the Federal Reserve will do that by raising interest rates. Because the current fear level won’t last forever, the trillions now sitting in Treasuries at essentially zero interest will eventually be reinvested, which makes higher interest rates inevitable. For that reason, anyone who locks into long-term CDs, bonds, or other debt instruments at today’s interest rates is going to lose money. Ergo, buy stocks, not bonds! As for all that money the government is pumping into the economy, if it doesn’t do that, well everyone in the economics profession agrees that was the biggest mistake of the 1930s and was the principal cause of the Great Depression. As for increasing the national debt, the ill-informed assertions that will somehow “bankrupt” the government overlook the fact that what bankrupts a country is idle factories, offices, and workers, not public debt. Governments don’t go bankrupt. They can always print their way out of their debts. Of course, that screws up the value of the currency, but that won’t affect you unless you’re stashing cash in your mattress because assets retain their intrinsic value and go up in dollar value in tandem with monetary inflation. Of course, not all inflation is monetary. Real inflation is an entirely different phenomenon. When, for example, extracting a vital resource like oil requires more resources and work because you’ve used up all the easy-to-get oil, then the real price of oil increases. The higher price of this harder-to-get oil causes inflation in the economy by raising the cost of producing everything that depends on oil for either feedstock or fuel, but that kind of inflation has nothing to do with the inflation caused by expanding the money supply in relation to the goods and services available for purchase. Of course, you can still get deflation with an expanding money supply if the supply of goods and services expands faster than the money supply because the amount of money available relative to what you can purchase with it is declining in that scenario, making each dollar more valuable and thus forcing down nominal prices. This scenario is somewhat similar in its effects to the scenario where the money supply actually shrinks because of cash withdrawals from the economy, which is what we experienced in 2008. In fact, you can see many lower prices in grocery stores, lumber yards, and other places in the economy right now, because even though output and inventory have dropped, the money supply has dropped even more due to the large shrinkage of credit, i.e. the M2 and M3 components of money supply. So, running a 1.4 trillion deficit in the federal operating budget this year isn’t inflationary, because more money than that has been withdrawn from circulation. In fact, many economists argue the deficit and stimulus spending aren’t large enough.
@20 “I think I’m done listening to those ‘experts’.”
Since you vote with the out-of-power minority, no one cares what you think. Piss into the wind to your heart’s content.
@19 Save your breath. It’s useless. You can’t do anything with people stuck at his level of ignorance and stupidity.
@21 Please do! I need suckers to lend money to at 30% interest.
“how stupid is spending our way out of debt?”
Not very + depends on what you spend it on. We spent (in today’s dollars) trillions in WW2, and sold a lot of debt to finance it. That debt is somebody else’s asset–say the Greatest Generation’s kids’ college tuition, and it was all paid back-with interest.
What is it about elementary macroeconomics, national income accounts, and the concept of aggregate demand that you do not understand?
Pretty much everything it would seem.
“how stupid is spending our way out of debt?”
Depends. If you are poor and convince somebody to loan you a lot of money so you can go to college or start a business then you have essentially “spent your way out of debt” by investing in the development of productive assets, the return on which is used to pay back the loans.
This is so elementary, I wonder if you are an actual sentinet human being for apparently not knowing it.
@20 “I think I’m done listening to those ‘experts’.”
You never understood what they were saying anyway. That stuff is way above your pay grade.
“such sophomoric garbage from a UW prof? HAHAHAHHAH, thank god for private universities.”
This coming from somebody who publically boasts about much his dick has done?
The stupid. It burns. (h/t Atrios)
How has spending our way out of debt worked so far? hahahhhhahahh
and #30, dont be such a simpleton…..a bank is not holding the nations’s note as it would for a college loan, the fucking chinese and arabs are going to be holding our kids and grandkids hostage..but like most liberals, you have no understanding of economics – your answer to everything TAX TAX TAX.
Why do you progressives think we cant negotiate a good trade deal with the chinese? Its because if we tell them to fuck off and put tariffs on their goods, they will quit buying up our debt. THEN WHAT?
SPEND SPEND SPEND! fucking idiots.
you fucking fool, u think the government would ever charge zero proprery taxes??? moron
SJ trollpatrol is a homo.
Homo’s are cool.
What they do to each other is cool.
They should be proud and have parades and such because who wouldn’t be proud of sucking off some other guy or sticking their appendage into some guys butt.
Homo’s are cool.
I believe they should be free to openly share what they do in great detail because it grosses out Pat Robertson.
Homo’s are cool.
Yeah homo’s.
@33: Ignorant moron: Tell me, what percentage of the U.S. national debt is held by foreigners or foreign central banks? Who is the biggest holder of US Treasuries?
You don’t know, obviously. But you are obviously a conservative loon who believes government exists to service the rich and keep them that way.
@34: Then what is the point of passing Timmie’s latest abomination? Keep him in breakfast cereal and good gin? But I forgot, you are a jew hating fuck.
@35 Roger’s Rawbutt
I am a biped ape, that is enough to make me a homo, but I think as well! That makes mean intelligently designed homo!
@ 24 “glort”
Absolutely!!!! I highly recommend that all the Trolls here send their kids to bible colleges and mail in schools. That is God’s intnet!
Of course, the few of your progeny smart enough to do so, might even apply to a Yeshiva, but that would require .. you know .. passing some tests?
BTW, which outstanding American Universities would you pick to educate a good Troll?
….Oral Roberts or Freedom University?
Such choices are hard to make.
Of ocurse, IF your kids had the smarts they might apply to Harbard … ooops that is where Henry Lewis Gates teaches and he is a N…. or .. howsabout Princeton …. ooops, that is Krugman’s cave. Lesseee .. Univ Chicago might be good now that Professor Obama is gone?
I think a better question is “How stupid are I-1033 supporters?”
@39…nah, was thinking more like UPS, Gonzaga, SU – you know, quality schools…ones that dont seem to hire “professors” like you who spend their time acting the fool on the internet. You are poison.
…and not to mention making as ass(and joke) out of themselves on the radio….
that was some classic stuff – you sounded like a fucking retard. I wish you would be on Dori’s show every week, the laughs were nonstop.
“dont be such a simpleton…..a bank is not holding the nations’s note as it would for a college loan…”
Well, then don’t be such a blockheaded simpleton yourself. You first assert (a.) a society cannot “spend its way out of debt”; and then (b.) an individual person cannot do the same thing. You were shown to be totally and absolutely incorrect in both circumstances, given certain parameters.
Then you accuse me of being a liberal as if that were a bad thing and follow it up with a gratuitous claim that I “know nothing of economics” an assertion made with absolutely no reference to reality as human beings know it.
Given this, and your posts, it is obvious that you are a lickspittle buffoon, short, smelly, fascinated by your little dick and its alleged travels, most likely highly unpopular (you have my sympathies), probably passed over for promotion recently at your 100% commission sales job where you barely make a living, and a congenital liar.
I have forgotten more about economics than you assert to know, based on your ignorant posts.
But welcome to Horse’s Ass, asshole.
Spread the word and tell people to vote NO on Eyman’s latest scheme to pick your pockets for the wealthy. Because I-1033 is really a wealth transfer scheme, taking tax dollars paid by renters and others without property and using it to help pay the property taxes of the wealthy.
Here are some of the things your tax dollars go for now:
educating our children
providing health care for seniors and children
mental health services
repairing roads and bridges
keeping parks and libraries open
paying for police and fire protection
paying for courts and jails
cleaning up Puget Sound
providing clean water and clean air
sidewalks and bike paths
affordable public transit
emergency services
services for seniors and disabled
and the list goes on.
But here is what your tax dollars above Eyman’s recession level baseline will go for if I-1033 passes:
paying property taxes
That’s all.
Hey, glortsky: Why no answer to my questions in #36 above?
Come on lickspittle. Show us your stuff. You must be new at this, because you bring nothing.
Hey glortski. Tell us more about how much your dick has done. Apparently these accomplisments are the proudest thing about your life….such as it is.
35 is a mobius troll: can’t decide which side
he
is
on
@41 Good on ya man …
University of Puget Sound, Gonzaga, Seattle University .. GREAT schools …
BTW .. tell me what graduate degrees they offer, how many Nobelists and members of the National Academy they have?
FWIW, this state does have a number of very good public and private colleges … Whitman, Evergreen, WWU, SU, ought to be on anybody’s list.
At the University level, UW and WSU both have world class rank … somehting of interest to Boeing, Microsoft, the NIH, Amgen, etc but likely not to Trolldom.
BTW, if my recreational activities here amuse you, you might try my own blog SJ. That may be a bit heavy for you .. over there I post on things like the origins of man, three dimensional structure of the nucleus, causal analysis, political photography … you know that pinhead stuff?
BTW, SJ is utterly and entirely a personal hobby … nother thing I do outside of the UW you know like things Troll like you do … shooting Bambi, swiggin beer, watchin the ladies pole dance, reading porn, betting on the Nascars, reading the Bible in its original comic book form,….
I gotta do something for fun!
BTW, I recommend Troll hunting! Good sport that! I bagged a six pointer the other day, had him stuffed and put on my virtual wall! Huzzah!
Come on by, you might even LEARN something.
@46 proud tobeanass
Try Troll hunting! It is a good sport, no harm to the environment, culling the herd likley impoves the breed too.
BTW, even here in librul WASTATE, Troll hunting doe snot require a license and the Season is nearly 12 months long!*
Please remember, Trollicide is NOT homocide since none of the Trolls are homos.
* Christian Trolls may not be hunted on Christmas.
“Come on by, you might even LEARN something.”
Not a chance. Learning isn’t programmed into his firmware.
Oh, by the way…if you were to enroll in any one of the aforementioned private schools and sign up for an economics class, prepare to be disappointed if you expect to hear anything taught that supports the neconservative experiment. This might be partucularly true at Seattle U. Jesuits in general don’t suffer fools lightly, and it happens that their boss (yanno, that German guy in Rome) just released a lengthy treatise that in its essense states that laissez-faire capitalism has failed miserably at meeting the needs of the human race.
@51 AF
Good Point …
Them sociaist commies even had a commie pope!
AND .. look waht they support:
.. nuclear disarmament
.. corporate subservience to society
.. redistribution fo the wealth
..EVOLUTION
.. global warming …………………………………………
OK that rules out SU and Ginzaga for our trolls who wanna fund a private school. They can still go to SPU .. all the faculty there are required to teach that there is a God!
BTW, look how good the lawyers Bushie hired from one of those private schools eff’d up his Justice Dept.
Maybe we ought to require that Trolls, out of their moral principles NOT attend any school receiving tax subsidies???
That eliminates Yale, Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Cornell, Cal Tech, Dartmouth, Emory, … along with UW, UCLA, U Michigan, etc.
OR the trolls could start their own private colleges … oops they already have Oral Roberts, Bob Jones, and Freedom U!
OTOH, if they are Jews, they can attend Union or Yeshiva! Pretty damn good schools if you can stomach those damned Jews!
@52
While SPU is a tad conservative it is hardly in the same league as Bob Jones or Liberty “universities”. Even Northwest College which is affiliated with the Assemblies of God and is extremely conservative isn’t off in crazy-train land. They are fully accredited and teach real science, evolution, global warming, etc.
@36….about 40%….
correction….about 55% as of June 08….after the latest spending spree by Bush and Obama, it is most likely much more than that now.
Kinda hard to negotiate with others when THEY OWN OUR ASS….