Sheehan vigil marks the end of Bush’s war

My trolls don’t seem to get it. The right-wing screaming heads don’t seem to get it. President Bush and his evil-genius puppet master don’t seem to get it. But the Seattle Times editorial board gets it exactly right: “Cindy Sheehan’s symbolism.”

The Times expands on a sentiment that I expressed in a comment thread yesterday, that Cindy Sheehan is a symbol — nothing more, nothing less — and as such, she and her vigil represent a nascent anti-war movement, that will surely grow in boldness and popular support.

Advisers and supporters of the president have tried to ignore Sheehan or downplay her protest as a mother’s unseemly grief. This is both wrong and a mistake.

So far, 1,853 Americans have died in Iraq. The cost of the war, in lives and dollars, will only grow. Sheehan is the human face behind the daily toll. She has become the symbol of growing frustration over the war.

America’s purpose in Iraq is over. The soldiers should be brought home. It can be done, as has been proven in Vietnam, Somalia and other places. When and how it is done is not Sheehan’s call to make, nor should it be.

In the minds of many Americans, the tide of the war has turned. Sheehan didn’t turn the tide. She is a symbol of the sea change. Expect this symbol to grow in significance and importance.

Whether Bush meets again with the mom standing sentinel in Crawford is not the point. The point is that the president must understand what this mom represents.

In focusing on Cindy Sheehan the person, rather than Cindy Sheehan the symbol, President Bush and his surrogates have missed the point entirely. Even if they could succeed in destroying Sheehan’s reputation, there are plenty of other grieving mothers ready to take her place… with Bush’s war creating more every day. What Sheehan started cannot be stopped by a mere smear campaign.

As Frank Rich brilliantly observed in the New York Times last Sunday, the war is over… and somebody should really tell the President.

A president can’t stay the course when his own citizens (let alone his own allies) won’t stay with him. The approval rate for Mr. Bush’s handling of Iraq plunged to 34 percent in last weekend’s Newsweek poll – a match for the 32 percent that approved L.B.J.’s handling of Vietnam in early March 1968. (The two presidents’ overall approval ratings have also converged: 41 percent for Johnson then, 42 percent for Bush now.) On March 31, 1968, as L.B.J.’s ratings plummeted further, he announced he wouldn’t seek re-election, commencing our long extrication from that quagmire.

But our current Texas president has even outdone his predecessor; Mr. Bush has lost not only the country but also his army. Neither bonuses nor fudged standards nor the faking of high school diplomas has solved the recruitment shortfall. Now Jake Tapper of ABC News reports that the armed forces are so eager for bodies they will flout “don’t ask, don’t tell” and hang on to gay soldiers who tell, even if they tell the press.

Gays in the military? What’s next… Jews in the Air Force Academy?

I’ve never quite understood the right’s reluctance to use the hated homosexuals as canon fodder, but as has been the case throughout the history of our nation’s military, expediency has a way of overcoming bigotry’s divisive barriers, where reasoned pleas for tolerance cannot. Still, with nearly 1,900 dead soldiers and many thousands more permanently maimed and mutilated — and with no clear mission or exit strategy coming from our “leaders” in the White House — no influx of gay recruits or high school dropouts can maintain our military at levels necessary to continue our occupation of Iraq, or our ever emptier threats against incipient nuclear programs in North Korea and Iran.

Only a draft could procure the human resources necessary to continue the Bush administration’s military misadventurism, but forced conscription would cost the President some of his most loyal supporters: the chicken hawks and yellow elephants who are willing to sacrifice everything to subdue Iraq, except their tax breaks and their lives.

The war is over in Iraq, not because of Cindy Sheehan’s vigil or Bush’s plummeting poll numbers… and certainly not because our troops have failed to perform as valiantly and courageously as circumstances allowed. The war is over because Americans have inevitably tired of a war whose endgame was always left as ill defined as its purpose.

There is little doubt that a quick American withdrawal will be as disastrous for the Iraqi people as was the initial invasion; but so would be the near-permanent occupation that seems to be the only other choice… an occupation that the American people simply do not support. As Rich bluntly concludes:

Nothing that happens on the ground in Iraq can turn around the fate of this war in America: not a shotgun constitution rushed to meet an arbitrary deadline, not another Iraqi election, not higher terrorist body counts, not another battle for Falluja (where insurgents may again regroup, The Los Angeles Times reported last week). A citizenry that was asked to accept tax cuts, not sacrifice, at the war’s inception is hardly in the mood to start sacrificing now. There will be neither the volunteers nor the money required to field the wholesale additional American troops that might bolster the security situation in Iraq.

WHAT lies ahead now in Iraq instead is not victory, which Mr. Bush has never clearly defined anyway, but an exit (or triage) strategy that may echo Johnson’s March 1968 plan for retreat from Vietnam: some kind of negotiations (in this case, with Sunni elements of the insurgency), followed by more inflated claims about the readiness of the local troops-in-training, whom we’ll then throw to the wolves. Such an outcome may lead to even greater disaster, but this administration long ago squandered the credibility needed to make the difficult case that more human and financial resources might prevent Iraq from continuing its descent into civil war and its devolution into jihad central.

Thus the president’s claim on Thursday that “no decision has been made yet” about withdrawing troops from Iraq can be taken exactly as seriously as the vice president’s preceding fantasy that the insurgency is in its “last throes.” The country has already made the decision for Mr. Bush. We’re outta there. Now comes the hard task of identifying the leaders who can pick up the pieces of the fiasco that has made us more vulnerable, not less, to the terrorists who struck us four years ago next month.

The war is over because when a President is unwilling or unable to lead the American people, the American people lead the President.


  1. 1

    thomas spews:

    big deal…yawn….boring….you want a symbol, take a walk thru Arlington, and I don’t mean Sno. Co. Ain’t nothing free, everything has a cost, even doing nothing has a cost. So wring your hands if you like….don’t expect the neo-cons to sit quietly in the back of the bus like ususal.

  2. 3

    dj spews:

    Nice post, Goldy!

    What I have found interesting coming from trolls is the implication that Cindy Sheehan is somehow a puppet of some left-wing master (perhaps,, which seem to be blamed for all left wing activism and hated by the right, even if it is mostly ignored by the left).

    No, in fact, Cindy Sheehan took action on her own, for her own cause. It doesn’t matter what her son would want, what her in-laws or even her own family thinks. She has taken it upon herself to exercise her RIGHTS to express herself in protest. The fact that her protest has resonated with a big chunk of America does not change her actions into a “left-wing ploy.”

  3. 4

    prr spews:

    And what happens if the US follows this lead and pulls it troops out?

    Killing fields all over again?

  4. 6

    windie spews:

    @4 what happened in Vietnam?

    Don’t mix things up Prr, or try terrormongering. I thought you guys were supposed to be the ‘optimists’

  5. 7

    Dr. E spews:

    jcg @ 5

    Thanks for the link, it provides further information:

    “In general, people see in Sheehan what they want to see. Opinion about her is largely based upon views of the War, rather than views about the woman herself. Democrats, by a 56% to 18% margin, have a favorable opinion. Republicans, by a 64% to 16% margin, have an unfavorable view. Those not affiliated with either major party are evenly divided.”

    And several more paragraphs thereafter I won’t quote, since others can click the linke themselves. I would be interested to see the demographic breakdown, which hopefully asks political affiliation, to see how many dems. vs. repubs. were sampled.

  6. 9

    Jimmynap spews:

    I have a hard time grasping why the righties don’t understand the symbolism. I recently wrote a response to Christopher Hitchens article in slate.


    I am glad the MSM is all over this. But not for the same reasons as most. My reason is this: Hopefully it will help the American people start thinking. It might not be perfect at first but the big picture will eventually be visible.

    And for you Mr. Hitchens? It is time for you to start going there too. I understand why you are a hawk and I agree with much of the time. But someone of your talent should be talking of the future. The one beyond Cindy Sheehan.

    I have always liked reading Hitchens’ work. But his hawkish stance has me a bit po’d. Similar to Goldy’s post I think he and many others pundit’s don’t get what she represents. I got it right away.

  7. 10

    windie spews:

    One of the really great things about “Sheehan the symbol” is how its motivating people.

    It really feels to me, like the attitude in the nation has changed just within the month of August. People are noticing, and they’re starting to care.

    Regardless of politics, that only bodes well for the US, if its really bad newws for the Bushies

  8. 11

    windie spews:


    Like the people who “Aren’t” dying in Iraq now? Do we even track numbers for iraqi nationals?

    I’d love to see a “People killed by Saddam in the 90s” vs “People killed in and since the invasion” chart ;)

  9. 12

    GBS spews:

    I have to post comments from another thread that are germane to this topic. Of all the things I’ve read, seen and heard from the the conservatives at large, this one ranks up there in the top 10 for unbelievably stupid thought processes. This, along with Larry Northern mowing down crosses, shows how much indifference and contempt the right has for the safety, well being and respect of our soldiers.

    These are mostly excerpts from our exchange, please take the time to read and understand who we are really fighting against.

    From the thread “Local blogger joins vigil in Crawford TX”
    Topic is Cindy Sheehan and the death of her son.
    GBS @ 373

    “I seriously doubt she’ll ever get over the death of her son. Who went into a firefight with antiquated body armor from the Viet Nam era on a flat bed truck instead of a Bradley fighting vehicle or some other armament. ”

    Michael @ 374

    “@373 I don’t know who died, pardon the pun, and left you and Cindy as experts on urban warfare, but tracked vehicles are not a good long term solution for traveling on paved urban roads. They are extremely damaging to pavement.”

    Comment by Michael— 8/17/05 @ 1:50 pm

    GBS @ 378
    Are you kidding me? You’re more worried about tearing up roads in a country that has been a war zone for 2 1/2 years vs. the safety of our troops?

    Comment by GBS— 8/18/05 @ 10:11 am

    Michael @ 380

    If the legitimate Iraqi government tells us we can’t drive tracked vehicles in the middle of Baghdad because they don’t want to repave the roads once a week, then we can’t do it.

    As a Gulf War I vet, I would prefer the Abrams myself. But I don’t always get what I want.

    Comment by Michael— 8/19/05 @ 12:19 am

    GBS @ 381

    So what you are saying is that the amount of money it would take to repave the roads are not worth the life of even 1 US soldier?

    Comment by GBS— 8/19/05 @ 8:42 am

    Michael @ 382

    It doesn’t matter how much it costs. If the Iraqi government tells us not to do it, and we decide to do it anyway, it would be counter to our goal of establishing self-government in Iraq. If the legitimately elected government of Iraq tells us to leave completely, we would do that too. But they haven’t. We could just nuke Baghdad and guess what, no more terrorist attacks (in Baghdad at least), but that would be counter to our goals.

    Comment by Michael— 8/19/05 @ 8:52 am

    This is truly pathetic thinking that is obviously prominent in the minds of conservatives. This is what we are up against. Giving control of how our military conducts raids over to Iraqi’s, putting the price of repaving roads above that of our soldiers lives with no regard to the amount of war profiteering that is going on. Is this what conservatives mean by support our troops? It sure seems that way, right from the Yellow Elephants mouth!

    This is why we must fight the conservative movement that is destroying America from the inside out. We have more to fear from the ultra extreme right wing, than Al Qaeda. Our enemy is in our midst, and our enemy is Conservatism.

  10. 13

    U2 spews:

    prr @ 8, and what in the hell do you think is going on at present? These car bombs and masacres are not your type of masacre? You rightwingidiots never cease to amaze me.

  11. 14

    Dr. E spews:


    “Killing fields all over again?

    It’s my somewhat educated guess that it is the US presence in Iraq that is responsible for the bulk of the daily carnage, since a large portion of the continual violence in that country is targeted at the US military and its installations. Now, the US is responsible for creating the chaotic, violent conditions prevailing in Iraq, so we do have a responsibility to rectify that situation—somehow.

    Now the question is: if the presence of US troops in Iraq is the incendiary agent in fomenting the insurgency, how does our presence there in any way help the situation on the ground? If our mere presence begets violence, how could we ever expect to see real peace, so long as American boots are on Iraqi soil?

    Even if my hypothesis above is only partially correct, I do think it behooves us as a nation to explore alternatives in restoring the peace. That is, could we find a way to restore peace and rebuild the destruction we’ve caused without the monolithic presence of the US military in that country? Could the peace be restored by an international (i.e. UN) peace-keeping force, and the country be rebuilt by NGO’s?

    The biggest problem, in my view, is that the Bush administration seems to be totally unwilling to entertain any alternatives to a prolonged US presence in Iraq.

  12. 16

    GBS spews:

    Turns out Ted Kennedy was right: Iraq is George Bush’s Viet Nam.

    Nice how Karma works, isn’t it?

  13. 17

    Thomas spews:

    and if you try real hard maybe you can start some class warfare, before dinner, weeeeeeee

  14. 18

    Dr. E spews:

    Michael Scheuer on Hardball last night:

    “The war in Iraq has broken the back of our counterterrorism effort. I‘m not an expert on the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, but the invasion of Iraq has made sure this war will last decades ahead and it has transferred bin Laden and al Qaeda from being man and an organization into being a philosophy and a movement. We‘ve really made sure that the war against us is going to be a long and very bloody one. Iraq was an absolutely disastrous decision.”

    Sure, that’s his opinion—but he’s arguably in a much better position to know than virtually any of us here.

    Link to full transcript:

  15. 19

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Yup. “Symbolism”. That’s all you lefties GAF about isn’t it? And sharing your feeeeeeeeelings. Fuck all of you unpatriotic stupid assholes.

    We went there because they were a sponsor of terrorism. We went there to root it out at the source. We had to kill some assholes and take out their leader. There are still more assholes who need killing, so we’re gonna be there for a while.

    WTF would you sympathizers and appeasers do? Send Nobel Prize winning worst president of the 20th century over there to “negotiate”? Didn’t you guys learn anything from President Reagan?… you confront evil and defeat it. That’s what makes for a peaceful world.


  16. 20

    windie spews:


    hahhahahahahahaahhaahahahahahahaah hahahaahhahaha hahahahaaha!

    Wow… didn’t think people like you really existed… At least not in Washington.

    I don’t think theres 1 true sentence in that whole post Mark. That is something to be proud of.

  17. 21

    dj spews:

    Mark the Redneck @ 19

    “We went there because they were a sponsor of terrorism. We went there to root it out at the source.”

    Sorry, Red Neck, you are wrong.

    The only act of terrorism against the U.S. ever undertaken by Iraq was a failed attempt to kill George H W Bush. Iraq was punished for that and never repeated the effort. We had Iraq contained and disarmed of illegal weapons for a decade. This idea that Iraq posed any terrorist threat to the U.S. is pure fiction.

  18. 22

    Ivan spews:

    Thomas @ 17:

    Class warfare? Us? How about:

    Tax cuts for the rich, making those tax cuts permanent, eliminating the inheritance tax, bankruptcy “reform,” defunding education, defunding veterans’programs, attempts to shield corporations from liability, attacking the right to organize, etc., etc.?

    You mean THAT class warfare?

    Mark the Redneck @ 18:

    Got some assholes who need killing in Iraq? Go enlist and kill them yourself, you big, tough macho patriot.

  19. 23

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Hey Ivan – What the fuck is wrong with “tax cuts for the rich”. It’s my goddam money. Who the fuck are you to think you’re “entitled” to any of it? And why shouldn’t I be able to pass it on to my daughter? Defunding?: WTF is that? Name one program that actually has received few dollars. And don’t try the “decrease of the increase is a cut” bullshit on me.

    Go earn your own money you stupid lazy shit.

  20. 28

    GBS spews:

    Mark the Redneck:

    Since you are a self proclaimed patriot, surely you’ll know who championed the progressive tax system. Can you tell us who that person was?

  21. 29

    Mark spews:

    windie @ 11

    Depending on the source, Saddam’s numbers total between 500,000 and 1 million civilian deaths. The total dead (US and Iraqi combined) because of the war are but a small fraction of that number.

  22. 30

    Mark spews:

    windie @ 27: “For how much Mark? I’m not cheap”

    Have you ever heard the line, “now that we’ve determined what you are, the rest is just a matter of price?” :(

  23. 31

    GBS spews:

    You can see how ANGRY the rigth is becoming now that one of their pillars of faith is collapsing under the weight of truth.

  24. 32

    Mark spews:

    GBS @ 28: “surely you’ll know who championed the progressive tax system”

    Different “Mark,” but… it certainly wasn’t Graucho or Harpo. (gotta avoid the filters, you know…)

  25. 33

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    GBS @ 28 – I don’t GAF asshole. I’m tired of you stupid lazy assholes sticking your hand in my fucking pocket. GO GET YOUR OWN.

  26. 36

    GBS spews:

    That’s what I thought, a poor, dumb (redneck), hypocrite who doesn’t have lots of cash.

    You lying, liar, chickenhawk, yellow elephant.

  27. 37

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    GBS @ 34 – Can you make your own money? Are you too stupid to do anything where you can make decent money? What’s it like waking up every morning knowing that you’re of little value to society. Fuck you freeloader.

  28. 38

    windie spews:


    Man, show some humor Mark.

    Sheesh :p

    Anyways theres no real way to deal with someone as inexplicably enraged as “Mark the Redneck” is. So he gets the kind of answers he deserves :P

  29. 39

    NoWonder spews:

    GBS @ 31

    How is the right showing anger? A few comments here at HA? The other righties I know are generally comfortable with domestic politics, and actually enjoy the various showcases the left uses to show their anger.

  30. 40

    GBS spews:

    @ 35 the conservative Islamic pillar of faith. The necons are playing right into the terrorists hands.

    Thanks for picking up on that.

  31. 41

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wow. Just like crabbin’. Throw some stinky bait in the pot that the bottom feeders love, and then throw it overboard and wait a little while. Amazing what you can pull up.

    Hey, can any of you moonbat freeloaders justify on moral grounds taking the fruits of my life energy? I’m waiting…

  32. 42

    GBS spews:

    No Wonder. Read the posts, watch the news. Mark the Redneck is spewing his anger.

    Larry Northerns is running over symbols of Jesus Christ with fallen US soldiers names, Rush Limbaugh said Paul Hackett only went to Iraq to “pad his resume” C’mon, the anger is every where with the right.

  33. 43

    windie spews:


    no way, you can’t dodge having this guy, he’s one of yours.

    Nowonder, MTR as he is right now is the ultimate expression of what happens when people listen to the swill that the rightwing machine is shoveling out.

    He’s what they want, and its scary to me that people end up like that… over propaganda

  34. 45

    Righty Hunter spews:

    Come on guys, Taxes are not what this posting is about. This is about the failure of the Bush Administration and their horribly inept policies concerning Mesopotamia. Cindy Sheehan, whether you like it or not, is a face of the no longer dormant majority of Americans who are just now finally getting outraged!


    W and the right wing trolls are digging their own graves…and even though not all of them are Catholic, Cindy Sheehan is reading them their last rites.

  35. 46

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Hey windie – Refute anything I’ve said. Use facts, data and logical analysis. Or are you too fucking stupid?

  36. 47

    GBS spews:

    Mark the Dumb Ass Redneck

    Ben Franklin invented the idea of a progressive tax system based on ones ability to pay.

    Thanks for proving the right is totally void of any knowledge of our Founding Fathers and also for your display of hate and anger and how unpatriotic you are.

  37. 48

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Righty @ 45 – Yeah, you’re right. So let’s go back to Iraq being a sponsor of terrorism and GWB have the vision and courage to go over there and confront it.

    Or you moonbats can talk about how great it would be to have your Nobel Prize winning worst president of 20th century over there cleaning up the fucking mess he made 28 years ago.

  38. 49

    windie spews:

    @46 refute which part?

    Most of your ludacrous assertations @19 have been thouroughly debunked enough times on here, let alone elsewhere.

    After 19, it was just you yelling about how you hate everyone, especially those ‘freeloading democrats’. I can’t refute your anger and hate, because they’re so evidently real.

  39. 50

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    GBS @ 47 – Groucho and Harpo would agree with you. Now we know what you believe you unpatriotic fool. Fuck you.

  40. 51

    GBS spews:

    @ 45

    The post isn’t about the right wing trolls digging their graves, they are digging US soldiers graves with a failed CiC making idiotic mistakes on a catastrophic scale and not having the backbone to admit they are wrong.

  41. 52

    windie spews:

    @49 but how about this?

    Prove that Iraq sponsored terrorism before 9/11. The Fundamentalists HATED Saddam, because he ran a secularist state.

  42. 53

    windie spews:

    also: Keep Yelling Redneck, its always entertaining to see a rightie meltdown, and it tends to shame the others into silence for a while :)

  43. 54

    GBS spews:

    I believe in the wisdom of our Founding Fathers enough to learn about them.

    You, obviously, have not the respect to learn about them or their principles. More likely you lack the the intelligence required to read and learn for yourself.

    Now, run along the intelligent adults are talking. There’s milk and cookies for you in the kitchen.

  44. 55

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    This wasn’t on NPR, so you moonbats probably missed it… but there was a recent report on NASA and the fuckup with the foam on the latest shuttle mission. Great quote.. they said there was too much “smugness masquerading as knowledge”.

    That describes you moonbats perfectly.

  45. 56

    JDB spews:

    There is something to be said about the Powell-Pottery Barn theory of you broke it, you bought it. But that would require the Bush to be honest so he could rally the country to his side, and the one thing we know is that Bush cannot be honest, and will never admit he made a mistake. Its a shame, because his failure to do so is only leading to more and more sensless deaths.

    When Bush is ready to admit that mistakes have been made, but that we need to achieve a stable Iraq to make up for the damage we have done, asks for sacrifice, and shows some personal sacrifice (no five week vactions in the middle of a war, no fund raising [heck, he isn’t running for anything] and Pfc. Jenna and Barbara would help), then we will have something. Strangely enough, wasn’t the admitting there were mistakes, but getting the job done right the Kerry position? But, no. As the Daily show so nicely pointed out, he has decided to get on with his life, and not let the tragedies that he has caused in Iraq get in his way.

  46. 57

    GBS spews:

    @ 55

    “your my base The haves and the haves more”


    Now that’s smugness masquerading as knowledge.

  47. 59

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Hey Goldy – 24 comments in 32 minutes. That’s where your “traffic” is coming from. You’re welcome.

    I put the same stink bait in the same pot and throw it over in the same place and the same stupid fucking moonbat freeloaders crawl in the pot.

  48. 60

    Righty Hunter spews:

    Mark The Redneck @ 48

    A little off topic, but you really think it was Carter’s fault for the whole Iranian situation? Blame that shit on Eisenhower/Churchill/John Foster Dulles and the CIA you nutjob! Read “All The Shah’s Men” by Stephen Kinzer if you want debate Iranian politics.

  49. 61

    windie spews:


    hehe you’re so cute.

    Do you think anyone actually falls for the “OMG I look like a total moron, so I’ll pretend I was trolling, and was in control all the time” Schtick?!

    You’ve exposed yourself pretty well now, and no amount of spin will protect you from your own idiocy.

  50. 63

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    GBS @ 56 – I love being a “have more”. You misunderestimate me too.

    FUck you.

  51. 64

    GBS spews:

    Ms Chickenhawk (formerly known as Mr. Cynical), Mark the Redneck, prr, NoWonder, Righton, ConservativeFirst, Thomas, and most conservatives in general.

    This is the base that turns on our soldiers mothers if they dare to disagree with Bush and his FAILED policies.

    Wow, that something to be proud of, ain’t boys?

    You guys and your false patriotism are a greater threat to America than Al Qaeda could ever imagine.

    I say that not as something to piss you off, I could care less, it’s just speaking the plain, unvarnished truth.

  52. 65

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    I’m still waiting for moral justification of confiscatory taxation.

    I’m still waiting for whether you guys would send your nobel prize winner to stop terrorism.

    I’m still waiting for examples of programs that have been “cut”.

    You moonbats are too fucking stupid to debate facts, so you just call me names. Fuck you. Our side is winning, and there’s not a fucking thing you guys can do about it.

  53. 66

    GBS spews:

    Mark the Redneck.

    You underestimate me, too. Someday, you just might find out what that is.

  54. 67

    windie spews:


    I hate to ever have to admit it, but there is NOTHING to be gained by ‘debating’ with you.

  55. 68

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Windie @ 65 – You are correct. Because I’m right and you’re wrong. It’s impossible to defeat facts and logic.

  56. 69

    Ivan spews:

    Mark the Redneck:

    I’m still waiting to hear that you have enlisted to go kill those assholes in Iraq. Go on, make us all proud.

  57. 70

    Harry Poon spews:

    Declaring military law in the U.S. under one bogus rationale or another would not be very feasible at this point either. I have my doubts about whether the majority of the people in the U.S. even consider Bush’s presidency legitimate. After the 2006 elections maybe we can start rolling back the pernicious and treasonous laws and legislation this neo-con occupation has left us with.

    The only reason for the huge deficit is to get America in so much debt that there is no money left for social services and generations of Americans will be paying off these “debts” which, coincidentally, are in the long run owed to the multi-national corporations that profit from war. We should push a windfall profits tax on the oil industry immediately to pay for this war. When it comes down to it: It’s all our money anyway. The power of corporations is a wizard of OZ sort of power.

  58. 71

    windie spews:


    wow I totally called that one.

    No, its because its impossible to argue with a gale coming off of the Sahara.

    “substance” has never had anything to do with your ranting, MTR

  59. 72

    Jon spews:

    jcg @ 5: Thanks for the poll link. I think (if the sampling is valid) it shows that opinion on the war really hasn’t changed drastically since the 2004 election, otherwise I would think you’d see a bigger numbers for or against in the ‘unaffiliated’ numbers, for whatever that’s worth.

    As far as Rich’s column, I do take issue with the “Mr. Bush has lost not only the country but also his army.” line as re-enlistments are up for the Army, and if they’d were that dissastified, they be bailing.

    My question to folks in favor of leaving now: If you thought the decision to go to war was so immoral, why is leaving before the Iraqis can defend themselves not as immoral? It’s like a hit and run; you might or might not have caused the accident; but you better to your damnedest to take responsibility after the fact.

  60. 73

    windie spews:


    But what if us being there is making the situation worse? Or even not helping?

    There does come a point where the cost becomes unacceptable.

  61. 74

    Richard Pope spews:

    The Seattle Times editorial makes a lot of sense. And it reflects a position that is much closer to how the majority of Americans feel than either the position of President Bush or the position of Cindy Sheehan.

    It remains to be seen exactly what will happen. Lyndon Johnson was also unpopular with his stance in Vietnam. But his vice president, Hubert Humphrey, came within a fraction of getting elected in 1968. The Democrats hardly lost any seats in Congress in 1968.

    Presumably, the GOP nominee in 2008 will be a fresh face that is not anchored down by the Bush administration. Someone like John McCain, who is leading in most polls at this very early stage.

  62. 75


    MTR @ 65:
    “You moonbats are too fucking stupid to debate facts, so you just call me names. Fuck you.”

    I haven’t seen the Unintentional Hilarity Meter pinned that hard in ages! Thanks for the laugh.

  63. 76


    pope @ 74
    First McCain has to win the nomination, which is a tall order for him.
    Cruel irony on both sides: the GOP candidates who can win can’t get the nomination, and the Dem candidates who can get the nomination will have a tough time winning.

  64. 77

    Harry Poon spews:

    It was common knowledge in 1968 and it is becoming a rediscovered truism now: We can’t be the world’s policeman. We need the cooperation of the rest of the world. Why couldn’t they have just waited for Hans Blix to complete his search for WMD’s?

  65. 78

    Goldy spews:

    Redneck @41,

    Hey, can any of you moonbat freeloaders justify on moral grounds taking the fruits of my life energy? I’m waiting…

    Because the fruits of your labor were only made possible by the great nation that our tax dollars support. A nation that educates your workers and builds your infrastructure and protects your property. A nation that provides the economic and political stability that has made our economy the wealthiest and the most powerful in the history of the world. And the more you have, the more you have at stake in keeping our democracy functioning… and the more of moral obligation you have to give the same opportunities to future generations.

    What the fuck… you think you did this yourself? You think you’re a self-made man? How incredibly fucking arrogant or delusional or both.

    You think taxation is class warfare? I’ll show class warfare… what we have under the Bush administration… where the children of the wealthy get huge tax breaks, while the children of the poor and middle-class are sent of to die in the deserts of Iraq. Show me the moral grounds for that. I’m waiting…

    Redneck @59,

    I measure traffic in unique IPs. You could post a thousand comments and it would still only count as one notch on my stats.

  66. 79

    headless lucy spews:

    McCain can’t win unless they (Reps) are willing to admit that the Bush camp lied about McCain’s war record. Then they would have to admit that if Bush lied and deceived them on this occasion, that he probably did the same thing to them on many occasions. I see their lies finally catching up with the whole lot of these idiots. If it wasn’t for white Southern rascists in their ranks, the Reps would be nothing. Who are these rascists and how does one recognize them? They are non other than the RELIGIOUS RIGHT.

  67. 80

    GBS spews:

    Harry Poon @ 77

    Your handle cracks me up every darn time I read it!

    Waiting for Hans Blix to declare no WMD’s mean no revenge could be taken by W for the attempted assignation against his father, no war profiteering for his Halliburton compatriot, Hussein wanted to sell his oil in Euros, that part won’t make sense to the right and it’s ramifications, but I’m sure Billionaire Mark The Retard knows, no taking Iraq oil off the worlds market creating a glut and lower gas prices, no $7 billion dollars per month profit for oil companies (unprecedented I might add) and mega tax cuts to the oil companies in the recent Energy Bill that was passed.

    It’s all about revenge and making money on the backs and lives of US soldiers. They sold fear and morons bought into it. Code yellow, code orange, Hussein has the most deadliest nerve agents KNOWN TO MAN – ONE DROP WOULD KILL MILLIONS, Yellow Cake, fear, turn left, right, jump, up, down aghhhhhhhh.

    Whoever voted for Bush the first time was fooled. There’s an old sayin in these parts and it goes something like this “fool me once shame on me, fool. . . uh. . .um. . . fool me. . .ummmmmmm. . . fool me twice shame on you?. . . Wanted dead or alive, weeee’ll, just smoke ‘em outa their caves. Yeah, Crawford High Football RULES.”

    You dolts!

  68. 81

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Goldy @ 78 – Geez, finally an intelligent comment. Thank you.

    Of course… property rights, laws, infrastructure… all that stuff makes for a functioning society, and allows all of us to be productive, albeit some more than others. But it doesn’t go as far as Groucho and Harpo. Tell me you don’t believe in that !

    My bitch is with the rate of taxation. 50% of MY money gets confiscated. I think that’s way too much. It should be cut at least in half. So you think I have more “moral obligation” than others to give my money away? I don’t think so. Here’s why: I have 4 university degrees, a professional license and numerous certifications. I work my ass off to stay current. I work my ass off for my employer. Contrast that with some stupid loser who sits in front of the TV every night, or goes down to one of the taxpayer funded stadiums to workship his pathetic heros. If he’s to stupid or lazy to make investments in himself, why should I? I’m willing to help others, but they gotta help themselves first.

    Nobody gave me shit. I came to Seattle with almost nothing, and built what I have. And it outrages me to see others think they have some kind of right to tap into my success.

    And on the military… c’mon… be honest… nobody “sent” soldiers to the military. They volunteered. There’s no draft. The rich vs poor thing is a non starter.

  69. 82

    U2 spews:

    Mark the Fn Redneck…do you think that Iraq’s citizens like the US being in their country? Hell NO. We should get the hell out and let them get on with THEIR COUNTRY AND THEIR CULTURE. We should stop trying to shove our damn elitist ideas and religion down other countries throats. Were you around in the 50-s and 60-s? Remember the Russia and Cuba situation? Remember all tha money spent by normal families to build fall out shelters? Do you think we would have rolled over and licked their asses if they invaded us? Why should we think that the Iraqi’s will be any different. They are probably a prouder society than we are, we worship the $ and power, they worship their history. But alas, it is an utter waste of time for any of us to try and discuss anything of importance with the likes of your self and ms. cynicalidiot. Lame brains do not change.

  70. 83

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    U2 – C’mon… think… you don’t “impose” freedom on people. Can’t be done. You can only free them from asshole dictators like Iraq used to have.

    Please, turn off NPR and CNN and get informed about what’s really going on there. Our soldiers are doing good work helping them rebuild their society and infrastructure. Actually, the insurgent attacks are really just a sideshow to the real story, but the LMSM doesn’t want to report the real story. They had free elections. They’re writing a Constitution. Schools are open. People can get medical care. But you won’t hear it as long as you insist on drinking the poison kool aid from the LMSM. If you’re really a “moderate” and really “open minded”, could you please at least give the other side a listen?

  71. 84

    klake spews:

    way to go the Redneck! Yes folks I volunteered for the military and serve under more Presdents than some you chaps vote for. You will not hear me complaining about the war today nor the ones in the past. Hi headless Lucy you having a great day, and lets not forget that funny rabbit either.

  72. 85

    headless lucy spews:

    MTR: Your grammar, spelling, and syntax are all anyone needs to know about your real education. As for the money you claim to have: Who gives a flying farthing about your money and tax situation? If you were REALLY smart and REALLY rich you wouldn’t pay ANY taxes.

    How many expensive homes do you own in Florida, Texas, or Utah? A really rich person would have several and in addition know WHY they owned them.

  73. 86

    Michael spews:

    @47 Ben Franklin invented the idea of a progressive tax system based on ones ability to pay.

    GBS the dumbass, Ben Franklin did not invent the idea of a progressive tax system. The 1377 poll tax was very progressive (the tax on the Duke of Lancaster was 520 times the tax on the common peasant). King Charles I was beheaded over a progressive tax system in 1629.

  74. 87

    JC Bob spews:

    I guess you all wished that the Hussien brothers were still roaming the streets of Bagdahd and picking up newlyweds, dismembering the groom in front of his bride and gang raping the bride before they threw her of the nearest multi-story building.

    I guess you also wished Saddam was still filling mass graves with the tens of thousand of Iraqis he had murdered.

    I guess you wished Saddam would have another chance to start another war that left a million young men dead and civilians gassed.

    I guess you wished that we left the Islamic terrorists free to roam the world looking for soft targets like Husky Stadium or the Bainbridge ferry to incinerate.

    And all because you HATE President Bush.

  75. 88

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Lucy – STFU. There’s a REASON you only make 72 cents on the dollar. Geez

  76. 90

    rujax206 spews:

    85 comments in 3 1/2 hrs.

    This war is over wingers…and in the words of the estimable Juan Cole “Iran won.”

    chimpy and the Mayberry Machiavellis could not have fucked this up better if they tried. Who knows…maybe they did. Maybe this situation is exactly how they planned it. WhoTF know what, how, or if they think.

    Hey there MTR-

    Let’s lay aside for the moment the right or wrong of the war. How do you square your unequivocal support of this administration’s prosecution of the war effort with all the documented corruption (e.i. no bid contracts and the like), waste, and inefficiencies. Oh wait…you MUST be one of those war-profiteering contractors! OK! Hey…killing is my business, and business is GOOD!

  77. 91

    klake spews:

    Let’s lay aside for the moment the right or wrong of the war. How do you square your unequivocal support of this administration’s prosecution of the war effort with all the documented corruption (e.i. no bid contracts and the like), waste, and inefficiencies. Oh wait…you MUST be one of those war-profiteering contractors! OK! Hey…killing is my business, and business is GOOD!

    Comment by rujax206— 8/19/05 @ 5:31 pm

    Rujax who prevent you from bidding on those goverment contracts? You afraid of bullits, what is you fear? I was over there and miss your great presence. I work with many folks bidding for that work and they didn’t all have a Texas accent. Headless Lucy what did you do today?

  78. 93

    Michael spews:

    all the documented corruption (e.i. no bid contracts and the like), waste, and inefficiencies

    Hey, leave Kosovo out of this.

  79. 94

    klake spews:

    all the documented corruption (e.i. no bid contracts and the like), waste, and inefficiencies

    Hey, leave Kosovo out of this.

    Comment by Michael— 8/19/05 @ 5:41 pm
    Check the link obove and tell how short you memory is. Michael I have bad news for you no one likes to bid on goverment contracts today its hard to make money on them. The only way you can is if no one bids on the contract and you bid is outrageous price and get it. The other thing you shouldn’t be suprise about, All goverments waste money like a drunken salior.

  80. 95

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Pope @ 74 – McCain is a RINO and has zero chance of getting nomination. None. Zip.

    But it really doesn’t matter who GOP nominates as long as donks nominate her Highness. Pope, YOU could run and beat her, because people will come out of the woodwork to vote against her. She’s the most divisive and mean spirited person the donks have today.

  81. 96

    rujax206 spews:


    Shit…what’s a paltry 9 Billion dollars among friends.

    “Documents leaked to the US media and accounts by whistleblowers in the company, which had contracts in Iraq worth more than $US30 million, reveal its tactics – invoicing Washington for $US2.1 million for work worth less than $US1 million; setting up shell companies in the Cayman Islands to submit padded sub-contract invoices to return profits as high as 130 per cent, instead of a 25 per cent ceiling imposed by its contracts.”

    Then there’s our pal…Ahmad!

    By Michael Hirsh
    Updated: 5:58 p.m. ET May 20, 2004
    “May 20 – The raid came as a shock to many: U.S. soldiers breaking into the home and offices of Ahmad Chalabi, the exile whom Pentagon hawks once saw as Iraq’s future leader. Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress promptly put its spin machine into overdrive. This was all about politics, the INC said—the souring of Chalabi’s reputation in Washington and his resistance to a United Nations-led plan for Iraqi sovereignty that would cut out the Iraq Governing Council, of which Chalabi is a member. “It’s a provocative operation, designed to force Dr. Chalabi to change his political stance,” fumed Chalabi aide Qaisar Wotwot.”

    P.S. there were LOTS more where those came from. YOUR tax dollars at work.

  82. 97

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Rujax, c’mon… you disappoint me. Blah, Blah, Blah.

    Unleash some moonbat delerium about Hallinburton, the VP and the “real” brains of the operation.

    Shit, I was waiting, and you let me down. FUck you.

  83. 98

    marks spews:


    Congratulations on your “Mission Accomplished” speech! Perhaps you should try it again on an aircraft carrier.

    Jon @72

    My question to folks in favor of leaving now: If you thought the decision to go to war was so immoral, why is leaving before the Iraqis can defend themselves not as immoral? It’s like a hit and run; you might or might not have caused the accident; but you better to your damnedest to take responsibility after the fact.

    Just reiterating…

    GBS @80
    Classic! “Revenge of the Nerds” was pretty friggin’ funny, back in the day!

    Klake @94

    All goverments waste money like a drunken salior.

    Not this drunken sailor…oh, there I go again…

  84. 100

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Rujax – You really disappoint me. Geez, I lob a softball right down the middle and you swing and miss. And then act like a dumass.

    Don’t you know… EVERY reference to Iraq and corporations MUST include reference to Halliburton, the VP and profits? WTF is the matter with you? This is right out of page one of the playbook.

    So STFU for a while, so others can show you how its done. GD it.

  85. 101

    Rujax206 spews:


    This is some fucking game to you, asshole?

    1840 Americans killed, 10,000 maimed, Billions of dollars, Tens of thousands of dead and injured Iraqi’s? For lies and fabricated evidence? For some macho global domination wet dream?

    You are one callous motherfucker…just like your chickenshit in chief.

  86. 102

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 1

    big deal … yawn … boring … another right winger yapping about “cost” borne by others, certainly not by him …

  87. 103

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    pisson roger rabbit @ 4

    “And what happens if the US follows this lead and pulls it troops out? Killing fields all over again?”

    Yep. And you guys are responsible, because you got us into this.

  88. 104

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    pisson roger rabbit @ 8

    “Bottom line, we pull out and there will be mass executions”

    Yep. And you guys are responsible, because you created this mess.

  89. 105

    marks spews:

    Actually, the most intriguing point raised by the Seattle Times is:

    America’s purpose in Iraq is over (er, what purpose are they laying out?). The soldiers should be brought home. It can be done, as has been proven in Vietnam, Somalia and other places.

    Wow! Job not done, mission not accomplished. Thank you for your military service, but you suck. That was one reason I left the service after Somalia, because we just don’t do shit when we have a purpose and no fucking support.

    It is also a reason I liked Bill Clinton (post Somalia). He did not shirk responsibility during the Kosovo incursion. Yet, Rwanda still resonates…

  90. 107

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “We went there because they were a sponsor of terrorism. We went there to root it out at the source. We had to kill some assholes and take out their leader.”

    Is it humanely possible for anyone to be this ill-informed, gullible, naive, misled, wrong?

  91. 108

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Who the fuck are you to think you’re ‘entitled’ to any of it?”

    Mark, who the fuck are you to saddle my children and grandchildren with indebtedness for your war? What makes you think you’re entitled to live in this country without helping to pay for its defense and government? If you don’t want to pay your fair share of the costs of living in this society, then get the fuck out — NOW!!!

    Don’t let the door hit your ass on your way to your desert island.

  92. 109

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    He sure sounds like one of those commodity speculators who drive up prices for folks who actually work for a living and produce something. They’re worse than useless, they’re leeches living off the rest of us.

  93. 110

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    The cost of this war is nothing compared to the one trillion dollars that’s been transferred to the bad choice crowd. I proudly pay taxes to support legitimate functions of government like defense. And I oppose with every fiber of my being giving it to assholes like you.

  94. 111

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Can you make your own money? Are you too stupid to do anything where you can make decent money? What’s it like waking up every morning knowing that you’re of little value to society. Fuck you freeloader.”

    I have a few questions for you, Mark.

    Do you really think you’re worth more to society than a hospital worker who empties your bedpan simply because you make more money?

    Do you judge people by how much money they have?

    Do you think life is just about money?

  95. 112

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wabbit @ 106 – Gee, I was thinking the same thing about you and your moonbat friends?

    What’s it like waking up every day in a country you hate? What’s it like going through every day seeing only misery and wishing to spread it evenly. What’s it like to be pessimistic all the fucking time. Doesn’t it suck?

  96. 113

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “The other righties I know are generally comfortable with domestic politics”

    They should be. They’re getting everything they’ve lusted after for decades — lower wages, less consumer and environmental protection, more special privileges for the rich and powerful — in terms of Bush’s domestic policies, this is a wonderful time to be a rich selfish prick.

  97. 114

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    I’m worth infinitely more than some who “helps people meet their societal obligations.” Infinitely more. So fuck you. Get off the public dole. Do some real work where you have to be competitive and productive and be under constant pressure always to do more better with less and do it faster. Try it…

  98. 115

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wabbit @ 108 – So you’re a commodity futures expert too? Coupla days ago, I had to “educate” one of your moonbat friends on calls and puts. Do you have any fucking idea how they work? Show us how smart you are. Asshole.

  99. 116

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wabbit @ 107 – If you like a free ride so much, go to france. They “think” just like you. And don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way to utopia. Fuck you.

  100. 117

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Hey, can any of you moonbat freeloaders justify on moral grounds taking the fruits of my life energy? I’m waiting…”

    Yes. Government costs money, and without government you would have nothing. If we didn’t pay taxes for national defense, police, and courts, the only property you would own is what you could carry on your person and defend with gun, knife, or club. If we didn’t pay taxes for fire departments, no one would come to save your house if it caught fire. If we didn’t pay taxes for roads and bridges, you would have to walk to work on dirt paths. If we didn’t pay taxes for Social Security and Medicare, no one would take care of you in old age if circumstances beyond your control stripped you of your employment, investments, and property. If you are like most people, you got your education at public expenses, paid for by the taxes of others. You owe everything you have, and every opportunity you’ve had, to the society around you. How many mentors have you had? How many people gave you a break to help you get where you are today? You are nothing without the aid and assistance of others. Wake up, little boy. You’re an immature, self-centered, little jerk. You’re part of a community, and you need the community you’re a part of, because without it you’re nothing but an evolved species of animal, ill-adapted to survive in the environment around you, at the mercy of the forces of nature.

  101. 118

    Richard Pope spews:

    Rujax206 @ 101

    “1840 Americans killed, 10,000 maimed, Billions of dollars, Tens of thousands of dead and injured Iraqi’s?”

    Don’t you mean Hundreds of Billions of dollars? You liberals just can’t get your facts straight!

  102. 119

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 77

    Unfortunately, this is a truth we have to relearn every 30 years or so, always at a high cost in American blood and treasure — because a certain element of our population is unteachable, and refuses to learn.

  103. 120


    My question is what’s the official donk stance on the environment is. I still hear donks saying we are headed for an ice age. There are some donks who say we that some of the earth is cooling while some of the earth is warming. You donks need to get together and come up with a grand unified theory on global warming/cooling. Or maybe the grand donkified theory on global tempeture.

  104. 122

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “This is some fucking game to you, asshole? 1840 Americans killed, 10,000 maimed, Billions of dollars, Tens of thousands of dead and injured Iraqi’s? For lies and fabricated evidence? For some macho global domination wet dream?”

    Yes, with right-wing fuckers like MTR, it’s a game: One-up the liberal, call the liberal names, puff up your chest and strut like a horny peacock — it’s a game.

    God, I pity his wife — if he has one.

  105. 123

    dj spews:

    Rufus @ 119

    “My question is what’s the official donk stance on the environment is. I still hear donks saying we are headed for an ice age. There are some donks who say we that some of the earth is cooling while some of the earth is warming. You donks need to get together and come up with a grand unified theory on global warming/cooling. Or maybe the grand donkified theory on global tempeture.”

    You fucking idiot. These questions are a matter of science, not political belief. That’s the problem with you wingnuts. . . you believe ideology defines the way nature works.

  106. 124

    Moonbat spews:

    Redneck – you aren’t educated worth sh*t.

    What was the taxation rate on the richest during WWII up to JFK – 90%? We were at war – aren’t we at “war” now?

    Another history lesson. Eisenhower refused to cut taxes during the 50’s. The reason? We were at “war” – the COLD WAR.

    So you get taxed 50%? Consider yourself lucky. We’re at “war” remember? The country is under attack. Pay your fair share.


  107. 125

    Moonbat spews:

    Hey fellow winguts!!!

    The redneck made his fortune here in Seattle land of the left-wing utopians. Land of over-taxation and “socialism”.

    How can it be possible? If he can do it, you can too.. If you pay his taxes he’ll show you…

  108. 126

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Hey everybody, I got a purgatory joke!

    A Republican died and went to Hell for living an evil and selfish life. The Devil was showing him around and explaining the system down there in Hell.

    “The deal is,” the Devil explained, “we have three compartments down here. You can choose which one you’re going to spend eternity in, but once you’ve chosen, no changes.”

    The Devil took the Republican to a door and opened it. The Republican saw tormented souls lifting heavy rocks out of a pool of fire and rolling them up a steep incline, driven by demons with whips. When a soul reached the top, a demon pushed the rock off, threw the soul back into the pool of fire, and the soul had to start over.

    “Nah,” the Republican said. “Not my cup of tea.”

    The Devil took the Republican to another door and opened it. The Republican saw tormented souls dancing barefoot on white hot coals while screaming in agony.

    “Nah,” the Republican siad. “I prefer air conditioning.”

    The Devil took the Republican to the last door and opened it. A cool, air-conditioned breeze wafted through the door, although it had a distinctly pungent odor to it. The Republican saw an endless sea of naked men and women up to their necks in rabbit shit, kissing and hugging each other, and eating potato chips and drinking cold beer.

    “This is for me,” the Republican said. “I can put up with a little compost.”

    The Devil motioned, and the Republican jumped in. He heard the door slam behind him as he sank up to his neck in the rabbit shit; but no matter, his feet found firm footing on the cool granite below.

    Just as the Republican reached for a bag of potato chips and can of beer, a whip cracked over his head, and demons shouted, “Coffee break’s over! Everybody back on their knees! See you again in 10,000 years!”

  109. 127

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Glad you have a high opinion of yourself, Mark. No self-esteem problems here! Tell that to a cop the next time he’s writing you a ticket.

  110. 129

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Gee Mark, what makes you think the rest of us don’t collect degrees, work our asses off, and pay 40% to 50% of our income to government?

    Federal government — has historically consumed 19% to 22% of GDP.

    State and local government — typically consumes roughly 15% of GDP.

    Now if half of that spending is waste, how is it that (a) voters keep electing politicans who spend 35% to 40% of the nation’s GDP on government, and (b) when so-called conservatives are running they government, they keep spending 35% to 40% of the nation’s GDP on government?

  111. 130

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Moonbat @ 123 and Wabbit 2 127 – I want the “poor” to start paying their fair share. The bottom half pays 4% of total taxes. They need to get off their asses and pull their weight.

  112. 131

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wabbit @ 126 – You’re welcome to stay of course since you’re “just a nuisance and not a threat.” You see, Murka keeps moving forward when we defeat libs and their kooky ideas. And we’re on a 10 year unstoppable roll.

  113. 132

    Moonbat spews:

    Redneck Jerk – can’t squeeze blood from a turnip. You want to take food from poor kids mouths so you can put another addition on the house or drive a bigger SUV. I put no faith at all in your 4 percent figure especially in WA State.

    Fuck you and your HUMMER.

  114. 135

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Moonbat @ 130 – Food from poor kids. How ’bout their little slut mothers stop breeding chirrens they can’t afford. Who do they think they are to want me to pay for their open legs?

  115. 136

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I mean, geez, how hard can it be to grab a little 6-lb. bunny by his long ears, lift him up by them handles, and kick a field goal into Canada right on the bunny’s cute little cottontail?

    All the bunny is gonna do is rip you a new belly button with his powerful hind feet equipped with razor-sharp claws until your intestines are hanging out!

  116. 137


    That’s the problem with you wingnuts. . . you believe ideology defines the way nature works.

    No, the problem is you donks think you know how nature works but you really don’t. Most people don’t run around like it is the end of the world when a new SUV hits the market but a lot of you donk do. You donks don’t care that our air and water is cleaner then it was 15 – 20 years ago you just keep on regurgitating the same old crap.

  117. 138

    JCH spews:

    Go Mark The Redneck!! Atlas has Shrugged, and the Democrat parasites are NOT happy!! JCH [LT, USN, 77-84]

  118. 139

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “you donks think you know how nature works but you really don’t”

    The Earth is flat! The Earth is flat! The Earth is flat!

  119. 142


    We cant breath we are all going to die! Watch out for that 1500 foot wave! If we dont stop the population growth billions will starve! “We are coming into a new ice age, we are all going to freeze! (said by 1970 donks)

  120. 143


    Actually the reason you donks find it hard breath is from all the crying you have done since 2000. Whaaaa no fair we didnt get to count the ballots our way in Forida 2000. Whaa Ohio was rigged! Loosen up and relax we republicans are just getting started.

  121. 144

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Rufus @ 139 – Don’t forget about running out of oil and “peak production”.

  122. 145

    MTR lacks inteligence spews:

    I suppose now you’re going to try and tell us about “Abiotic Oil”?

    The republicans have just gotten started? Wrong. I’ll tell you who’s just gotten started, the Chinese. Kiss $3.00 gas goodbye as soon as you see it!

  123. 147


    The republicans have just gotten started? Wrong. I’ll tell you who’s just gotten started, the Chinese. Kiss $3.00 gas goodbye as soon as you see it!

    And the donks solution is to let everyone else drill for oil except us.

  124. 148

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    MTR WannaBe – So you’re a petroleum engineering expert? Really. Do tell. So explain to us why global oil production continues to increase. Explain why the biggest field in the US thought to have 30B barrels has now produced 760B barrels and counting. Please explain the methodology behind the Hubbert Peak.

    I’m on the edge of my seat. I can’t wait to hear.

  125. 151



    Not exactly only 97.8% true by his own admission. Still way better than the donk MSM. Hey Clueless have you read any good memos lately?

  126. 152

    For the Clueless spews:

    Wow 4 comments almost in a row from the drive-by wingnut drivel artist DOOFUS – we’re blessed.

    How much does the RNC pay you DOOFUS? I think pbj’s working for Dobson now. They must pay him a dime vs. the RNC’s nickel per drive-by wingut drivel comment.

  127. 153


    What is with you and capitalizing my name. Clueless are you playing with your shift key on your 1970’s typewriter again?

  128. 156

    Janet S spews:

    Wow, the moonbats were certainly provoked today! And we wonder why Cindy Sheehan has such a ready following!

    The Iraqis are making progress in coming up with a constitution. It probably won’t look like ours, but why would we expect it to? These are educated people having intense but non-violent discussions on how to share the power and establish a working government.

    I have much more faith in this process to protect the rights of women than what would happen if we suddenly withdrew all our troops. If we leave, women will disappear from sight. If I read this thread correctly, that is just what many of you seem to be cheering for.

    I know this will attract the same comments that any reasoned (defined as lack of swear words, lack of ad hominem attacks) comment on this site usually gets. Have at it – it seems to make you happy.

  129. 157

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Mark, you seem to think the “poor” are a static population — the same people are constantly poor. Not so.

    The vast majority of people in low tax brackets are part-time and entry level workers, working students, and young people starting careers. Most of these taxpayers eventually will earn more and pay higher taxes.

    The commonly held belief among right wingers that a large part of their taxes goes to support lazy welfare recipients isn’t true, and never has been; even in the heyday of welfare programs, AFDC never reached 3% of the federal budget, and the average length of stay on AFDC was 14 months. Following Clinton’s welfare reform, welfare rolls shrank dramatically, and today welfare benefits are time-limited and recipients have to be either working or in job training. Nearly all (except the disabled) move into jobs and become taxpayers.

    A high percentage of the street poor are mentally ill people who used to be housed in institutions supported by taxpayers. Now we dump them on the street to fend for themselves. They can’t work or support themselves. Many end up in the jails; something like a third of the jail population is mentally ill.

    The street poor also includes once-prosperous people who fell on hard times because of job loss, illness, addiction, or other reasons. Sometimes their fault, sometimes not. People who lose their jobs and health benefits because of plant closings, then get hit with a devastating illness, may end up living under the freeway. Not everyone there is an alcoholic or druggie.

    The Republican answer to misery? Drastically increase the amount of tax money spent on corporate welfare; shield crooked corporate execs from bankruptcy laws; and deny bankruptcy protection to those wiped out financially by unemployment or medical debt.

    My suggestion is, when you’re called upon to contribute a tiny bit of your total tax burden (most of your taxes go to the things you said you’re willing to pay for) to help the unfortunate, well heck, just think of yourself as a good Christian.

  130. 159

    JDB spews:


    For you to be paying 50% total tax rate, you would have to be:

    1) Single

    2) Making over $135K

    3) Own no property or buisness

    4) Debt free

    5) And have a really stupid accountant.

    Somehow I doubt all of that, except for the single part. Given your lack of charisma, lack of a sense of humor, false sense of importance, and inabillity to understand logic (should we go back to your argument that carbon 14 dating is works on rocks, or that we don’t know the truth of anything more than 80 years ago? I think we have seen that you really don’t know much), I really have a hard time seeing any women wasting any time with you.

    You claim you got nothing from the Government. But you have four degrees. Unless you got those degrees from some internet diploma mill, which given your inability to argue, is highly possible, you got something from the government. And, if you really think still you have no use for the government, give away all your great wealth, move to Mexico, and surely you will do just as well. Obviously a great intellect like yours would be able to do just fine anywhere. Or sign up for the military. If you believe in this war so much, surely you would be willing to share your amazing intellect with the army and help bring a war that has lasted longer than WWII to an end. Our lonely eyes turn to you.

  131. 160

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    I’ve seen this nonsense on right-wing web sites — yes, there actually are ignorant people out there seriously arguing there are inexhaustible oceans of oil buried at great depths in the earth’s crust.


    It can be demonstrated in the laboratory that NO oil exists more than 17,500 below the earth’s surface (the bottom of the so-called “oil window”). That’s because the heat and pressure at greater depths destroy oil molecules.

  132. 162

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Oil drilling rigs have been able to drill through the “oil window” to deeper depths since the 1930s. No deep oil (i.e., below the “oil window”) has been found. Ever. Anywhere.

  133. 163

    Janet S spews:

    JDB –
    This is classic for the left. Rant on and on about the fairness of progressive taxes, but then work to avoid them and chide someone for being a big sap for paying them. Isn’t this the definition of hypocrite?

    If you are going to campaign for higher taxes and bigger government, at least have the integrity to pay them!

  134. 164

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “The Iraqis are making progress in coming up with a constitution. It probably won’t look like ours”

    One of the sticking points is they want women to wear burkhas and walk behind their husbands.

  135. 165


    in terms of Bush’s domestic policies, this is a wonderful time to be a rich selfish prick.

    If the donks ever made it too difficult to be a rich selfish prick in this country the first thing I would do is sell everything off and hide it. Then I would go down to the nearest welfare office and apply. Why work if you don’t have to. Of course I would keep my Cadillac.

  136. 166

    Janet S spews:

    Hey, Roger – you are an idiot. The Kurds have been living quite peacefully under their own rule for quite some time now. They want to keep it that way. And, no, the women do not wear burqas or live as second class citizens.

    The only ones who want women to be invisible are the religious fanatics. If we leave, they take over the country. If we stay, women at least have a chance.

    By the way, the argument is over oil, not women, not religion. But I forget – HalliburtonBushCheney control all the oil!

  137. 168

    klake spews:

    “Who the fuck are you to think you’re ‘entitled’ to any of it?”

    Mark, who the fuck are you to saddle my children and grandchildren with indebtedness for your war? What makes you think you’re entitled to live in this country without helping to pay for its defense and government? If you don’t want to pay your fair share of the costs of living in this society, then get the fuck out – NOW!!!

    Don’t let the door hit your ass on your way to your desert island.

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 8/19/05 @ 7:04 pm

    Mr wrabbit I didn’t know you could have kids and grandkid’s, but if you can tap my paycheck to pay for LBJ greatwhite hope, then you can donate to the cause to defend this nation and our may friends you have never met. By the way did you say Canada was your new country after Bush Won. You need to see a therapeutics to help with this anger problem you been displaying lately. I will ask you again what is you real FEAR today? You could be wrong and have to applogize to you good friend Bill. Rogger you could go to an old folks home and read to some ones Grandmother, you might feel better about yourself. You know they do have them in Canada too. Please give Headless Lucy a big hug for me, you would really make her day. God Bless, and you to Lucy

  138. 169

    klake spews:

    Actually, the most intriguing point raised by the Seattle Times is:

    America’s purpose in Iraq is over (er, what purpose are they laying out?). The soldiers should be brought home. It can be done, as has been proven in Vietnam, Somalia and other places.

    Wow! Job not done, mission not accomplished. Thank you for your military service, but you suck. That was one reason I left the service after Somalia, because we just don’t do shit when we have a purpose and no fucking support.

    It is also a reason I liked Bill Clinton (post Somalia). He did not shirk responsibility during the Kosovo incursion. Yet, Rwanda still resonates…

    Comment by marks— 8/19/05 @ 6:58 pm

    Mark Thanks for your service, we who are still wearing the uniform will win this battle in spite of these Clowns. God Bless, and you to Roger Rabbit

  139. 170

    Richard Pope spews:

    Doesn’t coal still cost relatively little — maybe $15 a ton or something ridiculous like that? I believe that a ton of coal has at least as much energy as three or four barrels of oil. Yes, it is less energy per pound than oil, because coal is mostly carbon and has relatively little hydrogen. But the cost of energy from coal is only a small fraction of what energy costs from oil or natural gas.

    On the other hand, coal tends to damage the environment to no end, because it has a lot of sulfur in it, and also burns less efficiently than oil or natural gas. We haven’t built a coal fired electric plant in a really long time, if my memory is correct.

    Just something to ponder. I think the USA has something like a trillion tons of coal reserves — enough to meet ALL of our energy needs with coal alone for several centuries.

  140. 171

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “If the donks ever made it too difficult to be a rich selfish prick in this country the first thing I would do is sell everything off and hide it. Then I would go down to the nearest welfare office and apply. Why work if you don’t have to. Of course I would keep my Cadillac.”

    What makes you think the welfare office isn’t on to you? I’m sure it wouldn’t be your first visit there.

  141. 172

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    164 (continued)

    Rufus, I appreciate your honesty. Most people who commit welfare fraud don’t admit it. Me and my fellow public servants have to wring it out of them. Maybe I can get you favorable treatment from the prosecutor.

  142. 173

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Oh yeah, right, the Kurds live peacefully. So did the Apaches under Geronima. They were chauvinists, too.

  143. 175

    Rujax206 spews:

    Anybody notice how the fuckheads arguements are just losing steam lately…I don’t think even they believe ‘em any more.

  144. 176

    Richard Pope spews:

    Kwazy Wabbit @ 171

    Okay, three out of 44 proposed electrical generation plants are going to be coal-fired in the WA-OR-MT-ID area. The other 41 plants will be natural gas powered. (Thanks for the link)

    Don’t we IMPORT natural gas? And we keep increasing the demand for natural gas by building more electric plants that use natural gas?

    We don’t IMPORT coal. We EXPORT coal. Something to think about.

  145. 177

    Richard Pope spews:

    Sobering thought — “We’re running out of atmosphere faster than we are running out of fossil fuels” — energy scientist Dan Kammen, quoted in August 2005 National Geographic.

    CO2 levels are about 380 parts per million — which means about 2 trillion tons in our atmosphere. We are producing several billion tons more C02 per year by burning fossil fuels. If we actually burned all the known fossil fuel reserves, the CO2 levels would be many times what they are today.

  146. 178


    Wabbit it is not that bad yet. No fraud for me in the immediate future. An advanced form of wealth redistribution can be found in Sweden where the government lets you collect Unemployment and sick pay benefits from there employer. I just love how the program is getting abused. As liberal as Sweden is they deserve every bit of their high unemployment.

  147. 179

    headless lucy spews:

    Mark the Redass: Ever since the oil industry became predominant the dollar has halved itself in value every twelve years. This “halving” is diectly tied to the “GOUGING” that the oil industry does on the price of its product. You can’t blame that on taxes, only on the laws of the free market– which the oil industry purportedly admires– but as practicing monopolists, really do not.

  148. 180

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Lucy @ 179 – Uh… so according to headless economic theory, inflation is a result of oil company gouging. Shit, I guess I missed that course when I got my MBA. Can you post the research you did to come to this conclusion? I’d love to do a little “peer review”.

    Why is it you Can’t Understand Normal Thinking?

  149. 181

    christmasghost spews:

    symbolism over substance??
    oh…we get that alright goldy…it’s been the libs motto for years. ever since clinton, remember?

  150. 182

    fire_one spews:

    Mark The Redneck – yeah you got an MBA alright, stands for Multitalented Bullshit Artist… Moron

  151. 183

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Hey Fire – Why don’t you go git ya some of that there fancy book larnin’ yerself? Or are you too fucking lazy or stupid?

  152. 184

    Gary spews:

    I’m glad that you finally admitted that Sheehan is being used as a symbol in a cynical propaganda campaign. Whenever you left wing radicals are losing the debate, you trot out the emotional, symbolic propaganda. I am surprised that you haven’t come up with a “for the children” angle like you did so many times in the slick willie administration.

  153. 185

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Brainless Lucy @ 179 – I’m amazed at your oil company theory. I really think you’re onto something. And here, all this while, I thought monetary policy of the Federal Reserve had something to do with inflation. WTF was I thinking?????? All that crap on reserve requirements, money supply, interest rates, and discussion at the FOMC are all bullshit aren’t they?

    I think you should write a letter to the ChairMAN of the Federal Reserve, and tell him of your oil company conspiracy theory. Address your letter to a man named “Al Green”. Tell him that all the bullshit he does is just that, and that he just needs to nationalize the oil companies.

    Let us know what “Al” says OK???

  154. 186

    headless lucy spews:

    MTR: The world we live in is entirely based on oil—even the food we eat. If the oil industry is gouging us,ie: charging more than their product is worth (AT THE TOP__ PER BARREL-CAPISCHE?), then the price of EVERYTHING by necessity goes up as well. As there are only a REAL amount of dollars in the world, inflation soon adjusts for the unfair amount that the oil industry charged. BUT, the oil industry BEFORE the naturally occurring inflationary adjustment hits, garnered unfair profits by abusing their monopolistic controll of a natural resource. Therefore , they owe us a lot in back taxes which THEY WILL PAY in the form of a windfall profits tax– which is being drafted as we speak by a REAL Republican congressman— not one of the foreign occupying force of neo-con fascists.

    It’s the simple truth. Even a moron like you can see this and readily understand that what I say is the indisputable truth.

    Watch this unfold in the news over the next few months, and I will rub your nose in your own stupidity.

  155. 187

    headless lucy spews:

    MTR: The buzzwords you keep repeating ( like, “kooky”) tell us more about yourself and your sources of information than you think. The only “Kookie” that I acknowledge is Ed Byrnes.

  156. 188

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Brainless Lucy @ 186 – LMAO ! ! ! ! !

    Let me know what fed says.

    The rest of you moonbats… the level of ignorance of economics in this country is absolutely astounding, and BL has graciously provided us with a real life example. To suggest that oil companies cause inflation, while having complete and total ignorance Fed Monetary Policy provides a textbook case for why some people should not be allowed to vote or participate at any level in our democratic processes.

    Lucy, STFU OK? Go ask your “life partner” if she wants her pussy licked.

  157. 189

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Mr wrabbit I didn’t know you could have kids and grandkid’s”

    I used to have 7,185 children, but due to cars and the Seattle Parks Department’s trapping, I’m down to 6,999 now.

  158. 190

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Richard, the point is you were supposed to look this up before posting bullshit, inasmuch as you’re a candidate for public office. Why should a person who doesn’t know what he’s talking about be elected to the Seattle port commission?

  159. 192

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    Lucy has a point, Mark. When oil prices go up, so does everything made from or transported by oil, including farm fertilizer and farm equipment fuel. In fact, food is one of the first things to go up because of oil prices.

    When the cost of necessities goes up, workers demand more money from their employers. Employers pass wage increases to customers.

    Voila — cost-push inflation.

  160. 193

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Of course, inflation became inevitable when Dubya put a $300 billion war on a credit card.

  161. 194

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “Whenever you left wing radicals are losing the debate, you trot out the emotional, symbolic propaganda.”

    You mean like you guys do when you wrap the flag and soldiers around your warmongering?

  162. 195



    What does Sweden have to do with this? We don’t live in Sweden.

    If the left had there way in this country we would become like Sweden. A high tax, no defense little insignificant nation.

  163. 197

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wabbit @ 192 – C’mon… read BL’s original post @ 179. She has NFI what “cost push” inflation is. She’s too fucking stupid.

    “Oil industry dominant”, “GOUGING”, “monopolies”…. C’mon… these are the ravings of a lunatic who Can’t Understand Normal Thinking.

    BL – Grown up word of the day…. “steganography”. Look it up. Then read what I wrote. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  164. 198

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Lucy @ 187 – Let me expose your secret:

    The only reason you’re “into” politics is because you’re too unattractive to get a man to pay all your bills. You need to tap into government programs to give you a free ride because you can’t make your own money, and no man with any money would ever want to see you naked. Right???

    10’s don’t GAF about politics. They’ve got it made.

  165. 199


    The way the donks are using all the names of the fallen soldiers without getting permission first really shows they dont care about the soldiers or their memories. Hey it is a free country though. It is always funny to see donks use crosses to get a message across. What hypocrites.

  166. 200

    cc spews:

    You people just don’t get it yet do you? For every Cindy Sheehan, there are thousands of mom’s that do support this President and his policy. The press thinks they can bring this war to an end and it just isn’t going to happen.
    And those polls that say the President’s ratings are in the tank. Are those the same polls that said John Kerry would win?

  167. 201

    Jesus Christ spews:

    It’s pointless to argue about Cindy. Whether she said her son actually died for Israel or why her husband is divorcing her has nothing to do with anything.

    The point is, she’s not a rich white male politician. The point is, she’s just an average person like you and me and she’s making a difference.

    I address this question to the supporters of the war: Aren’t you sick and tired of the killing and dying?

    Bush owes her an explanation. Hell, he owes everyone an explanation.


  168. 202


    You peaceniks are not consistent you should have been out is forse when we went to Kosovo. The peace movement is not about peace but about advancing a leftist agenda.

  169. 203

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Rufus @ 201 – It’s a waste of fucking time talking to assfuckinghole @ 200 and others like him. They don’t understand that peace comes from killing your enemies. They’d send their nobel prize winning president to “negotiate” with Murka’s enemies.

  170. 204

    cc spews:

    Yes, I am sick of the war, dying, and killing. I have seen Democrat Presidents and Republican Presidents lead our country in to war. I supported them both. I believe they know a lot more about the issues at hand than you or I do. It’s not our call here.
    And Cindy Sheehan is making a difference. She will rally the supporters of this war and our President. She alone will do that. Not the people that are using her. Not the media that think they can “make a difference.” She will incite the average, knowledgeable US citizens to support our President and his policy.

  171. 207

    Jesus Christ spews:

    We’re being told there’s an enemy out there that hates us because they hate freedom.

    We’re being told we have to kill them all.

    Take politcs and personalites out of it for a moment and just think about it.

    Do you guys really believe that?

    Does it make sense to you?

    Do you think that’s a practical solution?

  172. 209

    Puddybud spews:

    windie_the_blowhard @52: You asked if Iraq sponsored state terrorism before 9/11. Well you must not be too well read. Have Dr. E. translate the German for you. – Two Iraqis on remand on suspicion of espionage

    Federal Prosecutor’s office accuses them of acting as intelligence agents / no details on the background to the arrest

    That’s all I will translate for you windie. Again you ask, and I provide! That’s the Pudster’s way. Why didn’t this make it into any “official report” I wonder.

    Then there is this:
    Iraqi Spies Reportedly Arrested in Germany
    16 March 2001

    Al-Watan al-Arabi (Paris) reports that two Iraqis were arrested in Germany, charged with spying for Baghdad. The arrests came in the wake of reports that Iraq was reorganizing the external branches of its intelligence service and that it had drawn up a plan to strike at US interests around the world through a network of alliances with extremist fundamentalist parties.

    The most serious report contained information that Iraq and Osama bin Ladin were working together. German authorities were surprised by the arrest of the two Iraqi agents and the discovery of Iraqi intelligence activities in several German cities. German authorities, acting on CIA recommendations, had been focused on monitoring the activities of Islamic groups linked to bin Ladin. They discovered the two Iraqi agents by chance and uncovered what they considered to be serious indications of cooperation between Iraq and bin Ladin. The matter was considered so important that a special team of CIA and FBI agents was sent to Germany to interrogate the two Iraqi spies. ?Why didn’t this make it into any “official report” I wonder?

    The Iraqis Plot to blow up Radio Free Europe – The Czech news media have suggested that the reason for Vulterin’s dismissal was that BIS failed to inform the government that a terrorist attack was being organized by the Iraqi consul against the Prague headquarters of Radio Free Europe/Radio Free Liberty. BIS allegedly had been aware that Iraq had requested its consul, Jabir Salim, to organize the terrorist operation against RFE/RL, apparently in retribution for the start-up last year of Radio Free Iraq. The Czech press says Baghdad sent the consul $50,000 to organize the attack but the consul asked for more money. Baghdad allegedly sent an additional $100,000. The consul then fled to London in December, taking the money, his family and the embassy codes. The government reportedly only found out about the plans to attack RFE/RL from British intelligence. Czech officials have categorically refused to comment on this version of events. Czech Minister without Portfolio Jaroslav Basta, who oversees the secret services, blames BIS for leaking this version of events.

    The Iraqis behind the plot to blow up Radio Free Europe
    The story behind the purported Atta-Iraqi meeting is nonetheless an illuminating window into the murky world of intelligence in the war on terrorism – and how easily facts can become distorted for political purposes. The tale begins in 1998, when Radio Free Europe, which is headquartered in Prague, started broadcasting anti-Saddam programs into Iraq, infuriating the dictator. Late that year, Tom Dine, the director of Radio Free Europe, says U.S. officials warned him that “the Iraqis were plotting to blow us up.” The information about the plot, sources said, came from a recent Iraqi defector who had fled Prague for Great Britain carrying nine suitcases and $150,000 in cash – the proceeds of which were supposed to have been used to finance the operation.

    Radio Free Europe started round-the-clock video surveillance of the building. Soon enough, the cameras picked up a heavyset Middle Eastern man who was hanging around the RFE building taking pictures. He was sometimes accompanied by a thinner, taller man who wore a Shell Oil jacket. RFE passed along the pictures to the Czech intelligence agency, known as the BIS. The Czechs identified the heavier man as Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani, an Iraqi diplomat widely believed to be a spy. The thinner man was never identified.

    In late April 2001, al-Ani was again caught casing the building, and he was expelled from the country. Then, in the chaotic days after September 11, a Czech intelligence source inside Prague’s Middle Eastern community saw Atta’s picture in the media and reported that he had seen the same person meeting al-Ani at the Iraqi Embassy five months earlier. Czech Prime Minister Milos Zeman publicly confirmed the story to CNN during a visit to Washington last November. But the uncorroborated report, some Czechs now concede, should have generated more skepticism. “These [informants] tend to tell you what you want to believe,” says Oldrich Cerny, the former director of Czech intelligence.

    Following Saddam Hussein’s Secret Money-Laundering Trail
    A detailed analysis of Saddam Hussein’s secret money-laundering techniques shows here for the first time how he used the same offshore money launderers as Osama bin Laden. That covert money network, based in the tax havens of Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Panama and Nassau, helped bankroll the war machines of both Iraq and al-Qaeda. More than 1,000 pages of confidential corporate, bank and legal documents show how the network functioned. The papers come from court cases filed in several European countries, from corporate records, from investigations by Italian police, from a report of the Kroll international investigative agency, and from private sources. The documents are the basis of further investigations coordinated in Europe by the prosecutor of Milan. They show, for example, that a father-and-son team in Liechtenstein, whose business is setting up shell companies and secret bank accounts, worked to move the money of both Saddam and al-Qaeda. Engelbert Schreiber and his son Englebert Schreiber Jr. are listed as founder or board member of Mediterranean Enterprises Development Projects, Tradex, Techno Service Intl., Saidomin and Executive Flight Assistance, all Liechtenstein companies that handled arms sales and payoffs for Saddam. They also are listed on corporate documents for Nasreddin International Group Ltd. Holding (Liechtenstein). Ahmed Idriss Nasreddin, on the U.S. terrorist blacklist, was a founder of Al Taqwa, the bank that moved money for al-Qaeda and which was closed down by the United States after 9/11. The Schreibers declined to respond to numerous requests for comment. – “One thing we’ve learned about Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein is that the former dictator was a diligent record keeper. Coalition forces have found–literally–millions of documents. These papers are still being sorted, translated and absorbed, but they are already turning up new facts about Saddam’s links to terrorism.”

    Do you need more windie_blown? Are your Internet skillz bad?

  173. 210

    Puddybud spews:

    Halliburton/Big Oil/No Bid Contracts Loocy: So you are posting yourself again instead of your Harry PoonTang moniker? As a man I like speaking as a man. Go back to your Harry PoonTang name and stop masquering as a woman.

    I already sent you to the link on who pays what for oil in another thread. Do you read or just spread the shit everywhere you can? Most of the $$$ goes to the cost of oil. It’s Halliburton/Big Oil/No Bid Contracts Loocy. But the moonbat in you has to keep the same mantras going else you lose your personal impetus to write here, right? Are you one of the Planeteers on the Captain Planet Cartoon Series created by your other hero Ted Turner? You are Linka, the Russian, with the power of wind. Ooops… that’s windie. Maybe you are Gi – the water Planeteer, your arguments are so wet and soogy, they are like the wimpy wet paper towers that disintegrate in use. Yeah that’s it.

  174. 212

    Michael spews:

    Or you could read former intelligence czar Richard Clarke’s book Against All Enemies where he claims that Ramzi Yousef trained Terry Nichols how to make bombs.

  175. 213

    Puddybud spews:

    Michael: Windie exhales hot air out, he never takes any in. Otherwise he would not have asked that inane question.

  176. 214

    Rujax206 spews:

    “They don’t understand that peace comes from killing your enemies.” MT(dumbass)R

    We’re making more enemies than we can kill you stupid fuck.

  177. 216

    Rujax206 spews:


    From another post:


    The “legal justifications” were neither “legal” (per international law, as the wonderful Dr. E pointed out) nor justifications, as the case made to invade Iraq has been proven to be a fraud. Built on lies and fabrications, baby. Congressional authorization was given on the basis of bogus evidence. Lying to Congress is a crime, jcg. Those asshats lied and should be prosecuted.

    Ol’ Rujax’ three point plan for Iraq:

    1) Get Bush, Cheneyburton, Rummy, et. al. THE FUCK OUT OF THERE.
    Preferably to prison where they belong (like that’s gonna happen).

    2) Apologize to the people of Iraq for fucking their country up. “Gee, folks…those clowns that are in jail thought getting rid of Saddam was a good thing. Well it probably was. But we really made some terrible mistakes that we are going to try to fix as fast as we can…and we want to put you all in charge of your restoration and restore your control over your country’s assets. Halliburton and KBR and all foreign contrators will be here to serve the Iraqi people along with our protection force that will withdraw as soon as you can take care of your own security. Oh yes, you can have those permanent bases we were building. And as of RIGHT NOW…we are doing everything we can to put this back the way it was only better. ‘Cause in America…we own up to our mistakes and we fix what we break. You probably won’t believe us right away, but we WILL do what we say…starting now.

    3) Get the fuck out. And start taking care of the working men and women of the United States. Rebuild our military so we can use it to protect the peace and keep truly dangerous people from messing with us. Put together a truly International anti-terror agency, or coalition or something and use our awesome power to keep these criminals where they belong…behind bars.

    Then we can go about the task of rebuilding our tattered reputation as the world’s true super power. A real friend to it’s friends, and a straight shooter on the international stage.
    ‘Cause it is One World after all.

    Comment by rujax206— 8/16/05 @ 6:46 pm


    Now that prominent conservative calumnists (sic) are jumping ship, and the situation on the ground gets more dangerous and unstable every day…I’m not sure that anything short of bolting is going to save the troops that are still there.

    Sorry, true believers…this war is lost, and in the words of prominent Middle East scholar Juan Cole: “Iran Won.”

    The Mayberry Machiavellis were WAAAAAAAY out of their league here. It was like the Ravens cutting up the Giants in Superbowl 35. Four days to win the war…then two+ years of losses by a thousand cuts. These clowns were just the next in a LOOONG line of western imperialists looking to pillage the riches of the cradle of civilization. They are completely ignorant of history…therefore…WE get to repeat it with them. LUCKY US!

  178. 217

    Jesus Christ spews:

    It’s obvious that things have gone terribly wrong in Iraq. I think we all can agree on that.

    Pretty much everything we were told to believe in the beginning has turned out to be false.

    It’s not a conservative versus liberal issue. It’s about the right thing to do now.

    To those of you who still support this war: You know all the killing and hate is wrong and it’s okay to change your mind and join the Peace Movement.

    We will welcome you.


  179. 218

    cc spews:

    Again, Rujax206, What is your solution? Just who would you get to lead us into your nirvana?

  180. 219

    For the Clueless spews:

    Jesus @ 217

    Give it up, Oh Lord. These wingnuts want all war all the time. They profit from it.

    The best thing you can do is pull the plug. No more wingers. Especially ROOFUS the DOOFUS. There must be a special ring of hell reserved for roasting that weenie.

  181. 222

    windie spews:

    I love you too, Puddy, now bite me.

    (PS I only come on here at work, so if you try to flame me when its the weekend, you’re wasting your time :p)

  182. 224

    rujax206 spews:

    What fucking “nirvana” are you talking about dipshit!

    This is the worst fucking mess this country has confronted in the last 30 years. All because of the delusional wetdreams of the neo-clowns and their “noble” pnac “experiment”. It’s gonna take
    the best minds we’ve got left to fix the shit those assholes fucked up. On ALL fronts.

    Gore, Clark, Kerry, Clinton, Edwards…fucking ANY ONE of them could do a better job than the Mayberrry Machiavellis and the war-for-profit machine. So quit buggin’ me pissant. And I hope we’re lucky enough to get ALL of them…plus any other great Americans like Hagel or McCain or even Powell to join in and help out. Basically ANYBODY who has been burned by the lying sack of shit bush crime family would be welcome and don’t you know their numbers are legion (talked to their boy Johnny Thune lately…they sure hung him out to dry).
    Now bubble-boy is on another bamboozlepalooza tour to put lipstick on his pig. Good fucking luck, genius…you’re gonna need it.

  183. 227

    Puddybud spews:

    MTR, et. al. I think that Loocy is a man! The odds are greater than two sigma (smegma for loocy).

    Windie: Sorry I don’t do that.