The blow-up over the Burlington Coat Factory Islamic Center is quite possibly the most impressive display of American ignorance in my lifetime. From the inability to comprehend the actual purpose and location of the project to the completely inaccurate characterizations of the folks behind it, a majority of Americans are now opposing something that just about none of them seem to understand. After years of demanding that moderate Muslims speak out against terrorism, we encounter a moderate Muslim who’s spoken out against terrorism, and promptly call him a terrorist and tell him his religious freedom is conditional. We’ve become a nation that doesn’t deserve the great legacy of religious tolerance we’ve inherited from those before us.
If there’s one underlying truth to this sad episode, it’s that Americans don’t see a distinction between moderate and radical Islam. And I think one of the reasons that many Americans don’t make this distinction relates back to how Islam has grown as a faith in this country. African Americans often converted to the religion in what was seen as an act of defiance against a nation that long didn’t consider them equals. It was the religion of Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan. Throughout the years, Islam has become synonymous with black radicalism. Wealthy and moderate immigrants from places like Jordan, Iran, and Egypt – who co-exist happily with America’s cosmopolitan elite – don’t fit into that stereotype.
Obviously, 9/11 did much more to cement this view in the minds of Americans and broaden it to include more than just black Americans, but also those in the Middle East. And far too many now imagine that Islam is a religion premised upon a defiance of American values. The reality of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf would thoroughly shatter that illusion, so instead Americans end up believing that he’s someone he’s not (with a big assist from media personalities who are trained to never shatter the illusions of those whose comfortable loyalty comprise their ever-precious ratings).
And it’s this phenomenon that explains why a growing number of Americans claim to believe that the President himself is a Muslim. It’s rather obvious that Obama isn’t a Muslim. He doesn’t worship at a mosque or pray to Mecca five times a day. He drinks beer, he eats pork, and he’s certainly not fasting for Ramadan right now. Not to mention that he attended a Christian church in Chicago for most of his adult life. But when you internalize the belief that Islam is a religion based upon rejecting American values, another person’s religion isn’t about what they actually do, it’s about how you perceive their background and their motivations.
UDPATE: Another bizarre perspective on this topic comes from Franklin Graham:
“I think the president’s problem is that he was born a Muslim, his father was a Muslim. The seed of Islam is passed through the father like the seed of Judaism is passed through the mother. He was born a Muslim, his father gave him an Islamic name,” Graham told John King. “Now it’s obvious that the president has renounced the prophet Mohammed and he has renounced Islam and he has accepted Jesus Christ. That’s what he says he has done, I cannot say that he hasn’t. So I just have to believe that the president is what he has said.”
…
“Well, you know, you can be born a Muslim, you can be born a Jew, but you can’t be born a Christian,” said Graham.
All day, I’ve been wondering if people with a Jewish father and a Muslim mother are like seedless grapes. And what’s even sadder is that it appears that Franklin Graham believes that you can be born Muslim, but being gay is a choice.
As others have pointed out, with Obama there’s the additional fact that the hardcore knuckle-dragging haters are no longer allowed to use That Word in polite society when slagging on him. (Which of course just makes them hate all the harder.) So they default to the next “worst” thing.
And Cassius Clay and Lew Alcindor..
@1
I’m not sure if you’re referring to “Communist” or “Muslim” (or if wingnuts even know the difference between the terms).
@2
And remember that Clay (Ali) refused to fight in Vietnam and was found guilty of evading the draft.
@3
Ask Dr. Laura what #1’s taking about.
I hate to say it, but idiocy’s where it’s at, in this nation, at the moment.
Uh, you already did this post.
Let a rich Republicans buy the building from Feisal Abdul Rauf and turn it into something more respectful like a 9-11 strip club or a Hollywood Planet style restaurant with 9-11 replicas.
What would be more respectful then a religious center? Perhaps the Mormons should buy it and turn it into church. It’s not like they ever attacked innocent Americans. Oh wait.
I would say that invading Iraq in retaliation for the 911 attacks was the most impressive display of American ignorance in my lifetime.
Granted, from 2001 on, it’s been hard to sort out all the candidates.
@ 3
And he accepted it willingly, and served his time with his back straight and his head held high.
He resisted. Thats what resistance is.
Vietnam WAS a wrong war. The politics behind it were wrong, the battles were wrong, and the underlying reasons for it were wrong. It was so goddamn wrong on so many levels that it totally messed up this countries political attitudes for generations. The social effects are still being felt.
Muhammed Ali was right. Malcolm X was right. Rosie Greer was right. Arlo Guthrie was right.
My parents and their siblings, and their parents were right.
@3: I meant the N word. Been skulking around the American psyche long before anyone had heard of Karl Marx.
Ali Soufan has one of the more compelling pieces on this entire subject.
I’d love to see any of our resident trolls try to refute Soufan’s arguments. I expect much hilarity would ensue.
As long as a mosque is going to be built on ground zero, why not build a statue of Hitler and place it in Auschwitz?
There is one, very sad lesson from all this. Bigotry, xenophobia, lives on in the US.
This is not new. The right wing has simply added a new dimension to the term “anti semite.”
At the time of the Revolution, Jews in the US were as suspect as Muslims are now. Jefferson himself wrote disparagingly of us.
Yet, after he became President, the Jews of Newport wrote Washington. They asked the President if the new nation would tolerate us.
Washington wrote back NO, we could not tolerate any group because we are all the same.
I get so tired of this. Since 9/11 every single national election has a “Ground Zero Mosque” for the ignorant and non-informed to rally around.
The media keep these stupid stories going because it’s become the only reason they exist and so much of the “news” today is just some pudgy, irritating blowhard with a tin hat complaining that Obama MUST be a muslim because he dressed in Kenyan clothing once. Or that Acorn registering people to vote was anti-american because voting is ONLY for rich white people.
Commie, Muslim, Democrat… all the same to me.
Acts like stabbing and killing a cartoonist because they object to the subject matter of a cartoon or threatening mayhem if someone pictorially depicts Mohammet on television leaves a liberal like myself wondering where the moderate voices of Islam have been in defense of the victims of their own supposed fringy brethren.
I say fuck ’em — and draw a picture of Mohammet today.
ours is a stupid, fat nation.
and while obesity and liberty may be compatible
“If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
Thomas Jefferson
Everyone see the technique those on the left are using?
If you oppose Obama, they call you are a racist.
If you oppose illegal immigration, they call you are a racist.
If you oppose a mosque being build on ground zero, they say you are racist and an “islamaphobe.”
18 nTro9ll
I “they” keep trying to tell you something, maybe it is because it is true?
Deep Thought:
Muslim is the new Black.
Just because it can be done, doesn’t mean it should be done.
I don’t know anyone who thinks that they don’t have the right to build a mosque on that site. I know many who think it’s in poor taste. In fact, I wonder why “moderate” muslims wouldln’t be completly embarrased by such a bold statement. The extremists will declare the site a “victory”
No one thinks that Fred Phelps doesn’t have the right to do what he does, it’s just that we think he’s completly in poor taste.
16 Headless Lucy
We ALL should be intolerant of Muslims who condone or even accept the requirements Mohammed made that Islam dominate all other peoples. The idea that Allah commands that Mecca be free of Jews and Christians is repugnant. The commandment that Islam dominate other peoples is disgusting and should be called that.
The price for such rational intolerance, is that we should show the same intolerance of ourselves. Atheists who want to ban God from public places, Christians who see 9/11 as a new Mecca … are ALL doing the same thing.
You just gotta love libtards. When you say “but Christians are peaceful people now” and libtards say “but look at the Bible filled with fire and brimstone!”. Then you mention the Koran is filled with all the same fire & brimstone and their eyes glaze over like you just didn’t say anything. I get it.
Islam = Brown People Religion = GOOD.
Christianity = White People Religion = BAD!
If I opposed a 13 story statue of Emperor Hirohito two blocks away from the Peal Harbor memorial, I bet Lee and his ilk would label me a Japanaphobe.
@24 Troll – what can one expect from evil libtards? They completely lack any moral compass.
A long, long, long list of world-wide attacks by Muslims on Christians since 9/11 simply because they were Christian.
http://www.thereligionofpeace......ttacks.htm
Can someone please provide in this comment section a link to a site that compiled a list of attacks by Christians on Muslims based solely on their religion, like I have?
Thank you. I’ll be awaiting your list.
@26 Troll – but but Christians burned witches in the 1680s!
Oh and don’t forget about the Crusades a 1000 years ago or the Inquistion in the 1490s! Yeah I’m struggling to come up with anything in the last 100 years.
SJ,
Have you heard one prominent Islamic leader condemn the outrages of the lunatic fringe of their religion?
Have you heard of any one grassroots groupof Islamic adherents who rose up to reclaim their faith from the nutjobs?
Admittedly, I don’t own a TV or buy a newspaper. But I don’t recall any such thing. In fact, a friend who was in Indonesia (worlds most populous Muslim country) on 9-11 tells me this. The streets were packed with people dancing in joy, and restaurants, hotel lobbies and other public places showed the attacks over and over to wild cheers. These weren’t isolated lunatics, but large groups of ordinary Indonesians. Is this the tolerant religion of peace we’re being sold?
@29 – what do you expect from evil libtards? They lack any moral compass so you find them defending these bloodthirsty savages 24/7 like their lives depended on it.
re 22:
God is all powerful and everywhere. Why are you afraid of a few atheists?
Does God really need your assistance?
Here’s a good start on Christian persecution of Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....of_Muslims
The Bosnian atrocities in the 90’s had something of a religious basis and muslims bore the brunt.
There was a recent massacre of muslims by a Christian militia in Nigeria.
The Bible says something about the log in your own eye wingnuts.
@26 Troll on 08/21/2010 at 9:06 am
“Can someone please provide in this comment section a link to a site that compiled a list of attacks by Christians on Muslims based solely on their religion, like I have?”
How about we ignore your ridiculous plea for “solely” and we start with one, and you tell us why the Siege of Sarajevo which happened only 14 years ago does not meet your criteria.
@33 MBS – that’s the best you can do? Meanwhile Muslims commit atrocities non-stop for 1400 years without nary a peep from libtards.
Pretty ignorant statement. One of the greatest “clash of civilizations” going on today is within Islam.
Look at the turmoil in Iran after the last election. And that’s just one example.
The majority of Islam favors modernity. Only a minority wants something medieval.
Brainwashed bigot alert @ 34.
And those Christians were NEVER so violent during the last 1400 years. Oh no!
Right wing Christian evangelists, Muslims and the conservative world wide political right are all manifestations of the same perversion of free speech in that they consider free speech to be controlling what others do, think, and say.
You are all on the same side as far as I’m concerned.
@23-30, Can’t you guys find a more appropriate place for your circle jerk?
re 32
If a wingnut had a log in his eye, he’d force Asian children to make a picnic table out of it and sell it at WalMart.
You fool. It had little to nothing to do with their religion. It was anti-american resentment.
I’m sure some Europeans, Russians, Cubans, South Americans did the same thing.
@37 – Straight up & righteous!
BRAVO!
Writing as an atheist, I simply fail to comprehend these nuanced (and not-so-nuanced) distinctions that ‘Baggers struggle to apply to Islam or any other religion.
To me, a person’s religious beliefs are just another lifestyle choice, like so many others. Preferences in music, fashion, hobbies, hairstyles, tattoos, piercings, cuisine, pets, art, entertainment, whatever. As far as I can tell, none of those choices are reliably correlative with “terrrrrism”, or anything else. These are just things people choose to get them from day to day. To each his own.
From my perspective, there is some deeper underlying need in the general American psyche that is fulfilled by these periodic crusades to identify and cast out “the other”. It’s absolutely true that whatever large percentage of Americans oppose the remodeling of a Burlington Coat Factory into a faith-based community center, they do so out of ignorance. But ignorance alone would not be enough. Even with a more than adequate assist from a disgraceful main stream media. There is something peculiar to the American character that predisposes us to snatching up our pitchforks and torches at just the right bell tone.
Let’s be honest. The location of this proposed project is largely irrelevant. We all know that by now. The perception of the project being located “on hallowed ground” has been carefully manufactured, and is nothing more than a pretext to justify this cathartic exercise in xenophobia and bigotry. Americans would oppose this project even if it were proposed for Tuscaloosa, so long as someone offered them a plausible excuse. Ground zero is just that. An excuse.
Well, according to Gallup, 93% of all Muslims condemn the 9/11 attacks.
Meanwhile, not a single wingnut troll here has even dared to meet the challenge of Ali Soufan’s argument.
Why do wingnuts hate America?
@29
Have you heard one prominent Islamic leader condemn the outrages of the lunatic fringe of their religion?
Um, yes. Feisal Abdul Rauf, the person who’s building the Cordoba Center. He’s spoken out repeatedly, both in speeches and in print, against the dangers of radical Islam. And he was nominated under George W. Bush to be an American envoy to the Muslim world to show that America is a welcome place for Islam.
That’s why this is so absurd. Rauf is exactly the kind of person we want to be representative of America’s Islamic community, and we’re treating him like a pariah because people like you aren’t taking the time to educate yourself on the facts.
@29
More from TIME Magazine:
@44
Deep Thought:
Education is the new Slavery.
@46
It is for some people.
@43
Guess what percentage of Muslims don’t believe 9/11 was committed by Muslims, and was instead perpetrated by Jews?
So yes, many condemn 9/11, but believe the Jews did it.
YLB wrote:
“The majority of Islam favors modernity. Only a minority wants something medieval.”
If this is the case, then why doesn’t this moderate modern muslim majority step the fuck up and take out the trash?
Wow. The trolls have gone bonkers. Yes, I realize they weren’t exactly sane to begin with, but at least you could follow their meager thought patterns once and awhile.
@ 49
If this is the case, then why doesn’t this moderate modern muslim majority step the fuck up and take out the trash?
Actually, they do. 60 minutes did a piece on this a few weeks ago.
The problem is, stupid fucks like you keep painting all Muslims with the same brush, which only makes the job of Muslim moderates that much more difficult.
I notice that neither you, nor anyone else here, has even attempted to refute Ali Soufan’s piece from Forbes.com. What’s the matter? Can’t think of an intelligent response?
Ain’t that America / somethin’ to see baby / Ain’t that America / little pink houses for you and me
Conveniently located far away from the others.
Troops forced to attend Evangelical propaganda concert.
Typical troll rhetoric:
@24 – bad analogy. Your analogy only works if it someone was trying to build a statue of Osama Bin Laden at ground zero. The correct analogy would be building a Buddhist temple near the site of Pearl Harbor, which no one would object to.
@28 – Don’t let facts get in the way of your argument! Ever heard of Christians bombing of health clinics and murdering doctors? Ever heard of the Catholic priesthood committing widespread pedophilia and then covering it up? Uganda, which is something like 94% Christian, is essentially committing a religious war against gays, as they have enacted laws that make being gay a lifetime prison sentence and being gay with HIV punishable by death. Finally, http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....00647.html.
And those are just 4 examples of current, present day acts of violence committed by Christians in the name of Christianity. We can only imagine what has occurred in the past 100 years.
re 48: Guess how many Christians think God was behind 9/11 to punish gay people?
Who do you think you’re kidding? Tim McVeigh is one of yours.
@49
What happened in Iran last summer should be a clue for you.
So, those of you who think Cordoba House shouldn’t be built or at least shouldn’t be built within some yet-to-be-determined distance of the WTC site. Do you think the power of the Federal, NY State, or NY City government should be used to stop it from being built?
Do you think elected officials (who are sworn to uphold the laws including those protecting religious freedom) should be saying the Cordoba House shouldn’t be built?
How would you feel if elected officials were saying a Pentecostal church shouldn’t be built somewhere for reasons that seemed like hatred and intolerance of Christians? How would you feel if a segment of the population was calling on those same officials to use the power of the state to prevent it from being built?
Finally how is this at all compatible with the First Amendment and religious freedom?
I won’t attempt to reply to all the comments in this thread. In fact, I’m not even going to read them — I have other things to do today. To me this is a very simple issue. The people who are against a Muslim community center (not mosque; although there’s no reason why it shouldn’t be a mosque) are bigots. They are small-minded people who are taking out the frustrations that all Americans (yes, including us liberals) feel about the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, on Muslim people as a group. In other words, they are victimizing innocent people to satisfy their own selfish need to lash out against that very traumatic event. This is imbecilic. Thoughtful people don’t condemn every dog in the world just because one dog bit their neighbor. They hold the biting dog responsible but don’t institute a general ban against dogs.
It’s strange that wingnuts have taken exactly this approach toward Muslim people, given that this is precisely the argument they use against efforts by certain small interest groups (whom they incorrectly label as “liberals”) who want to ban guns and certain breeds of dogs because a few people use guns to commit horrific crimes and a few dogs bite people. Gun owners and owners of pit bulls tend to be rightwingers, and they’ll become very defensive about their “rights” to own their guns and dogs anytime anyone starts talking about restricting gun ownership or banning pit bulls from urban neighborhoods because some deranged individual shot up a workplace or some irresponsible dog owner’s pit bull injured someone. They have a valid point, and it’s strange that they don’t comprehend that exactly the same point applies to the Muslim people (99.9999% of whom are innocent) against whom they express blanket animosity.
Exactly this same point applies to the Muslim community center in New York. A rational person would say, if they’re harboring terrorists or funneling money to terrorists or facilitating terrorism in any way, then shut it down. But if it’s just a community center for people who happen to be Muslims, there’s no reason to interfere with it. Yet that’s what the imbecile bigots of the blind-rage right want to do — they want to punish innocent people simply because they’re members of a group of more than a billion human beings from whence came 19 deranged criminals who committed a horrific crime. If that’s the way you want to run the world, then the same “logic” behind rightwing religious bigotry can be used to argue that if a white male commits a murder, then all white males should be executed for that crime. That’s essentially what they’re saying. No rational human being, and no rational rabbit either, can accept such an argument. It’s just plain stupid. But if that’s the basis on which wingnuts want to run our society, then my response would be, okay let’s be consistent and apply the same “logic” to guns and dogs.
Hey idiot Conservatives, listen up:
#1 IT”S NOT A MOSQUE
#2 IT’S NOT AT GROUND ZERO.
It’s two big NYC blocks from Ground Zero in an abandoned building which use to be the Burlington Coat Factory. Another block away there’s a STRIP CLUB.
#3 There’s already a mosque closer to Ground Zero, which has been there before the World Trade Center was even built.
#4 The board of directors for the Islamic community center includes Jews and Christians
Congratulations WINGNUTS!
In addition to:
1) Guantanamo torture
2) Iraq Invasion & Occupation
3) Abu Ghraib prison abuse
You are providing Osama bin Laden and his yellow bellied murderous crew yet another recruiting tool.
That lousy murdering failing kidney SOB must be pissing himself in his spidy hole cave laughing.
Write on, Lee.
Write on!
Muslim people want us to respect them by not drawing the image of their leader, the world’s first terrorist, Mohammed, so will they please respect us by not insensitively building their victory mosque on ground zero?
It’s a simple matter of mutual respect.
@PassionateJus
You’re the idiot. You’re trying to use reason and logical to argue with conservatives.
They all march in lock step with their leader du jour.
Here’s the rules to remember. If history doesn’t jibe with the Bible it never happened. The Second Amendent to the Constitution is the only real Amendent all the rest of them are crap. Receive your GOP talking points, go into a lather, and repeat on the blogs.
Awesome 1947 War Department film that illustrates how the strength of America is in our diversity and how demagogues seek to corrupt our nation.
OK so the guy litters at the end. Still a great film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
Amazing to see this film being made by the US govt. Of course it was early in the Cold War and before McCarthyism.
Americans are dumb, confused, easily led sheeple. We weren’t always. But! When Bill Clinton turned over the airwaves to the big media sharks that quickly gobbled up the little fish (read independent radio, tv, and print media). It was all over but the shouting.
You may have some diversity of opinion on the coasts, but you travel across the U.S. and all you get is hate radio 24/7. And it is brutal!
There are only 3 media empires that control what you see and hear and they are overwhelmingly conservative corporate. They will allow middle of the road commentators like Thom Hartmann only if it will make them money. If rating sag even a little, out goes the progressive and in comes a rabid conservative.
So if you only hear the worst anti American rants, over time that is what you will believe.
@65
Some may call you a liar and unethical.
American media is lopsidedly liberal. Over 80% of journalists at companies like New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Time, Newsweek, U.S. News & World Report, ABC, CBS, NBC and PBS identify themselves as Democrats.
Let that sink in. 80%.
I’ve written this once before. Conservatives have the full scope of Obama Pelosi and Reid as policy makers to come to grips with. At nearly every point these folks are wrong. This whole debate about Cordoba is a stupid stunt which will bite us in the rear if we don’t knock it off.
Americans know Obama is a poor president. They know Pelosi is a bullying harridan of a Speaker. They know Reid is a colorless characterless blob who follows orders without any capacity to originate them. If we remind them of these basic facts November might just turn this country back in the right direction. If we don’t and keep arguing side issues we will lose.
@67: “At nearly every point these folks are wrong.”
The only points at which these folks are “wrong” is when they bend over backwards to please the rabid right-wingers. Stimulus, health care reform, immigration, financial market reform… reasonable changes could have been made if the wingnuts were tuned out of this whole process, but instead, you get more tax cuts than actual stimulus, you get a watered-down healthcare package, and you get weaker changes than are actually needed.
You may heap scorn on Democratic politicians (and believe me, some scorn is justified on both the left AND the right), but Republican politicians are worse. They’re quite willing to sabotage any action of the government, just to gain political advantage.
When people like demo kid wishes there were more Democrats in office, I hear it as him wishing more women were being raped, and more people murdered, because 18 out of the top 20 cities with the highest rape and murder rates, are run by Democrats.
demo kid, why do you wish more women were being raped in America?
@62: “I admire Dr. Laura?” Whatever. You’re lower than the shit that I scrape off my shoe, and a lousy fucking excuse for a human being. Then again, that’s already established from your comments here.
But in terms of your comment:
Muslim people want us to respect them by not drawing the image of their leader, the world’s first terrorist, Mohammed, so will they please respect us by not insensitively building their victory mosque on ground zero?
Respect “us”? Who the hell are YOU? Were you trapped in wreckage in New York or something? Shot on board the Achille Lauro? Kidnapped by the Taliban in Afghanistan? Latching onto actual pain and grief from victims is raping a tragedy for your own benefit. Typical… conservatives are all to willing to do to exploit the dead to justify their xenophobia.
But hey… perhaps “Muslim people” would take you more seriously if you didn’t prop up Middle Eastern dictators, exploit their natural resources for your own gain, and fund both sides of a devastating 10-year war between Iraq and Iran.
@69: Troll, why do you fuck your mother?
I mean, it seems like that’s just as relevant of a question to the discussion at hand.
re 68
From a conservative perspective there hardly is a point at which Obama et al are right. No pun intended.
And these policy issues are what Republicans must address. Non-issues like Obamas citizenship or religious faith or this mosque or whatever it is simply aren’t important. Nor are they helpful to the needed cause of returning control of at least one house of Congress to Republicans.
Re 65
Somehow liberals always forget that Newscorp and the other huge media conglomerates are for profit corporations.
They aren’t putting Limbaugh and Beck on the air for personal reasons. They do so because it is a valid and viable economic model. I know that liberals hate this, but America is a few things. It is a center-right country whose leanings are for conservative political activity. It is a country in financial trouble, with scared citizens. Scared people gravitate towards jingoism as a means of allaying fear. They also return to root ideas of who and what the country is. That kind of return is bad for progressives.
You seem to have forgotten, but an all progressive media format has been tried a couple of times. Air America is history. MSNBC is still going, on a tithe of Fox’ ratings.
You may justifiably dislike what mass media does to local expression of local problems. But to blame them for providing what the customer wants and advertisers will pay for is naive at best.
@72: Agreed about this being a smokescreen. And I’m glad that you admit that it’s the conservative perspective, and not “the truth”.
@73: Somehow liberals always forget that Newscorp and the other huge media conglomerates are for profit corporations.
That million dollar donation kinda put to rest that this is purely a profit motive.
I know that liberals hate this, but America is a few things. It is a center-right country whose leanings are for conservative political activity. It is a country in financial trouble, with scared citizens. Scared people gravitate towards jingoism as a means of allaying fear. They also return to root ideas of who and what the country is. That kind of return is bad for progressives.
I’m getting very sick of the “centre-right” lie that conservatives love to spread. The US is more libertarian than right-wing, but the political spectrum is a moving target. Does this mean that when African-Americans were disenfranchised, we were “far right”? Does this mean that now that a majority of people support gay marriage or civil unions, we’re less right-wing than we were ten years ago?
And the idea that mouth-breathing Tea Partiers are somehow “returning to root ideas of who and what the country is” is absolutely ludicrous when their efforts are laughably free of context or religiously revisionist.
Demo Kid, 18 out of 20 US cities with the highest rape rates are run by Democrats.
Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard.
Re 74
Yes, but you forget a few things.
Prior to that donation more went to democrats from Fox than Republicans.
Ted Turner and his loony wife are rabid leftists. Does this make their network a tool of their politics? Of course not. Keep the customer watching so that advertisers will pay high rates is the name of the game. And to do that the bias in opinion media seems to be to the right.
Not being British, I’m unsure if we’re going to sit centre right at the theatre….
But even if you’re correct, libertarians with any sense won’t vote progressive. They have less in common with you folks than the conservatives do.
More unadulterated stupid from lost:
“Ted Turner and his loony wife are rabid leftists.”
Ted Turner hasn’t been married for 9 years, smart guy.
@67 “Conservatives have the full scope of Obama Pelosi and Reid as policy makers to come to grips with. At nearly every point these folks are wrong. … Americans know Obama is a poor president. They know Pelosi is a bullying harridan of a Speaker.”
Lost, you’re so full of shit you make my buck teeth hurt! Obama saved the U.S. and world from a Second Great Depression (that Republicans created). It would be nice if you gave him some credit for that. His health care reform, which was pursued by Democratic AND Republican presidents for three generations, will improve the lives of millions of Americans (including, probably, yours). How about some credit where it’s due? What has Obama done that’s so awful? Besides having a “D” next to his name? Run up deficits? Bush did that. Reagan did that. Nixon did that. Where was your outrage when Republican presidents and congressmen borrowed heavily and spent like drunken sailors? And what’s so bad about deficits and national debt, anyway? The existence of a large national debt provides a “safe haven” investment for pension funds, insurance companies, and other large institutional investors who can’t (or shouldn’t) take equity or private bond market risks with the funds entrusted to them. The U.S. government has never defaulted on a single penny of money entrusted to it. You’re simply another venom-spewing dogmatic wingnut who knee-jerks against anything with a “D” next to it. As for Pelosi, she’s merely doing what all Speakers have done and are paid to do, which is muscling legislation through an unwieldy and balky Congress. If Speakers didn’t do that, nothing would ever get done, and none of our country’s pressing problems would ever be addressed. As for your blind faith in your free-market ideology, well, that kind of stupidity is what got us where we are, and everyone but you knows it. You’re a juvenile cloaking yourself in mature-sounding grownup language, but underneath, you’re a juvenile like all the rest of the wingnut trolls on this board.
For what it’s worth, I don’t admire Dr. Laura. What’s there to admire? She’s a demagogue who exploits mindless racial hatreds and lines her pockets by pandering to xenophobia. People like her don’t improve the world, they divide it and lead it into hatreds and wars. She’s sewer scum.
@77 They always trip over their shoelaces on bare facts, don’t they?
The definition of a wingnut is someone who shoots from the lip in ignorance of simple facts.
“But even if you’re correct, libertarians with any sense won’t vote progressive. They have less in common with you folks than the conservatives do.”
This is classic furtherance of an accepted “truth”; that Conservatives are for small government and Libs are tax and spend. Never in the history of the Republic has government grown more than during the Bush-Cheney years (you can call the explosion of contractors to carry out the wars private spending, if it fits your version of reality). And make no mistake, the tax hikes that will be required to pay for their mess will be blamed on the poor sap in the oval office at the time.
@82 on the silliness of Glibertarians over at CT
Not going Galt :why has there never been a serious attempt at a real libertarian utopia?
76,
you really are lost.
What wife?
What network?
Who cares?
Idiot.
@78
I think that Obama’s handling of the Gulf Oil spill should be added to the list of what he has done well. Soon after the crisis began he had two highly competent officials, Adm Thad Allen and EPA director Lisa Jackson overseeing and working with BP to solve the problem. He held BP’s feet to the fire the entire time, and negotiated a $20B to be set aside by BP to compensate people who lost livelihood due to BP’s negligence. In essence, he let the responsible scientists and engineers solve the problem as quickly as possible while doing his best to communicate with the American people and lay the blame at the feet of an irresponsible oil company. Hopefully, he can now push through some regulation and oversight of this industry that is apparently badly in need of it.
Let’s compare this to a few prominent Republican’s response to the oil spill. Bobby Jindahl acted like a schizophrenic pop star with his 5 minutes of fame. At one moment he would deride federal government intervention, then at the next he would demand that the federal government give him the funds and resources to dredge the sandbars off the coast of Louisiana, something that would be an environmental catastrophe in its own right. It was obvious quickly that this is the kind of person you actually work around in a crisis because he is doing more harm than good.
And who can forget Republican Joe Barton actually apologizing to BP for how unfair it was that the President was holding them accountable for their actions.
Finally, there is Sarah Palin, ‘Drill Baby Drill.’ I think that one is self explanatory.
Re 77
Wow, has it been that long. Seems like yesterday we were having dinner with him and Jane. Time flies.
Look Mike, I don’t honestly care about or follow the insane marriages of celebrities. Why don’t you try, just once, to answer a substantive point, rather than going off on non-issues? Could it be that this is all you’ve got?
Re 84
Daneeka (BTW, this is my nieces name. She’s a pretty decent kid. Too bad about you,)
Read above and apply to yourself.
Re 78
With all due respect to your age and wisdom-
How exactly did Obama save us from a second Great Depression? (I will grant that saving GM was a big deal, but few would have done otherwise, no matter the party affiliation.)
Health care reform? You mean forcing every American to buy a product from the very people you folks were villifying a few short months ago? You mean forcing the costs of health insurance up on healthy insured so that these companies can pay for the highest risks among us, and even pay for those already ill before purchasing insurance? Is that what’s going to save medical care in this country. Pardon my doubt.
You mean the stimulus package that HAD to be passed without debate or time to consider it, so that unemployment would peak at 8%?
You mean extending unemployment again and again until folks could sit and collect a check for 2 damned years?
And yes Bush had huge deficits, which I’ve repeatedly decried. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Want to talk about protester hypocrisy? Where in the world are all the folks with anti war signs since Obama won the presidency? Yeah, thought so.
Yeah. I think this guy will go down in history as a great president. If you mean, great at destroying the country.
Re 85
“I think that Obama’s handling of the Gulf Oil spill should be added to the list of what he has done well…”
Is this supposed to be hysterically funny, or are you actually serious?
re 88: Weak drollery is a poor substitute for a reasoned argument.
All you ever do is tick off lists of discredited wingnut talking points
Sigh… What did I say? Something about a “clash of civilizations”?
I heard this insight by the way from Fareed Zakaria whose Phd thesis adviser was Sam Huntington.
@26; You do realize that in your list that there is 1(one) single listed attack in the United States of America on a Christian by a Muslim? The Christian’s ankle and hip were broken when the cab driver ran over him.
@29; Where exactly is the film footage of Muslims in the United States filling the streets and dancing after the towers fell on 9/11?
We aren’t discussing building a community center for the assholes in Indonesia. We aren’t discussing building a basketball court for the imams of Iran/Iraq. We aren’t even discussing building a mosque. It’s a community center with a prayer room for people who live in the USA.
And truthfully, the only reason I would worry about them building it is that some terrorist group would probably see it as a target.
Lost @ 86:
Why don’t you try, just once, to answer a substantive point, rather than going off on non-issues?
This is rich coming from the guy who still hasn’t coughed up that list of Reagan policies that were actually good for business. I asked for that list how long ago?
Or, even in this very thread. Three times, four now, I’ve pointed to Ali Soufan’s article on Forbes.com (linked back in my comment @ 11), and asked any one of you guys to refute it, only to be met with the sound of crickets.
If you’re going to take people to task for not responding to substantive points, then the least you can do is hold yourself to the same standard.
@88
Obama did a fine job of handling that crisis. Of course, the biggest test will be seeing if he can push through some regulation of the offshore drilling industry.
All the Republicans did throughout the crisis was political grandstand. Oh yeah, I also recall that at the same time that BP was spewing millions of gallons of crude into the Gulf, the Republicans were also resisting a bill that would bring oversight to Wall Street, another industry badly in need of regulation. If this doesn’t show where their true motives lie, then I don’t know what does.
Finally, please tell me specifically what it was that Obama did that mishandled the situation. What government organization should he have put on the job that has any expertise in containing oil spills one mile under the ocean? Let me give you a hint, there are only three organizations in the world with any expertise in this area, one of them is BP, and none of them work for the US govt.
Of course, you are probably one of those wingnuts who kept saying we should just drop a nuke on it!
I am not sure why I am asking you for specific things that he did wrong. Judging by all wingnut replies on this forum, I expect you to comeback with counter-factual evidence, poor analogies (ie. don’t compare this to Katrina, it just doesn’t work), and something about ‘socialism.’ But who knows, maybe you will surprise me.
Lost @ 87
How exactly did Obama save us from a second Great Depression?
You know, I could well just ask you for that list of Reagan policies that were good for business and which has yet to be forthcoming. The question I asked you is substantially the same as the question you’re asking here. Tell me, why should I answer your questions when you don’t answer mine?
Re health care, yes. According to the CBO, the health care reform bill will, indeed, reign in health care spending. And, yes, most progressives wanted a public option, but the conservatives on Congress wouldn’t go for it. Conservatives are largely responsible for the flaws in the bill, so conservatives really have no right to complain about those flaws.
Re stimulus bill, yes. I note that you don’t complain about the effectiveness of the bill, only the fact that it was passed in a way that precluded the possibility for Republicans to make grand-standing speeches on the floor of the the House. That’s not an economic argument. It’s a political argument.
Re unemployment benefits, yes. I’ve pointed out, and at one point you seemed to have even agreed, that unemployment benefits constitute one of the more effective forms of cyclical deficits that government can incur. As for the incentives, you guys have a habit of talking out of both sides of your mouth. For the extremely wealthy, the economic incentives are, apparently, so strong that we must continue the Bush tax cuts, but the same marginal increase in income applies to the difference between unemployment benefits and a real job. How is it that this incentive works for the very wealthy, yet has no effect on people who can barely make ends meet?
Lastly, what, exactly are the Republican/conservative alternatives to these programs? The only even remotely viable alternative to anything is Paul Ryan’s proposal for Medicare vouchers–a proposal that does absolutely nothing to reduce health care costs, and effectively means that the only people who will eventually be able to afford real health care are the very wealthy. Is this your notion of progress? Killing off the elderly poor through inadequate health care is your way of “saving” this country?
Yes, Republicans are likely to gain back some seats in both houses of Congress in this midterm election. That’s politics. The idea that this change in membership will, somehow, get this country on some more “correct” path is, in terms of the actual policy proposals on the table, laughable in the extreme.
Republicans can’t win the public policy debates. That’s why Republicans gin up controversy on things like the so-called Ground Zero Mosque. Even then, Republicans can’t win the substantive debate, as is plainly evident by the lack of any cogent response to Ali Soufan’s Forbes column.
All of the rabidly anti-Islam folks here should be precluded from using any Mathematics beyond Geometry and should be forced to do all of their arithmetic using Roman numerals.