Seattle Weekly: “Republicans Blow It”

I thought I’d provide a link to George Howland’s column in the current Seattle Weekly: “The Republicans Blow It“.

While I personally hold a slightly less cynical view of this election, I thought Howland hit the nail on the head in comparing the strategies that ultimately shaped Christine Gregoire’s victory in the hand recount:

This turnaround wasn’t happenstance. The Democrats played a brilliant endgame, aggressively hunting for votes that had been incorrectly disqualified, while the GOP focused on trying to ferret out fraud that wasn’t evident.

As it so happens, these competing strategies were clearly represented in the blog wars over this election. I embraced the “count every vote” mantra early on, not only because I genuinely believed it the right thing to do, but out of confidence that if we counted every ballot cast by a legally registered voter, Gregoire would surely come out ahead. Meanwhile, our friends over at (un)Sound Politics callously dismissed voters with poorly marked ballots or illegible signatures as unworthy of the franchise… and have instead focused their prodigious efforts on unsound allegations of fraud, corruption and gross incompetence. As Howland points out, these two very different approaches stem from longstanding philosophical differences.

For decades, Democratic electioneering philosophy has been turnout

Comments

  1. 1

    Rog spews:

    Here are my top hypocracy and or Republican media confusion points

    1. King county got some special provision, they play this up in the media, now the other counties should be allowed the same. What they forget is that Rossi lost by 10 votes without the extra ballots.

    2. Republicans are starting to play the symantic game with regards to counts and recounts. Democrats should play too. From now on the first two counts were “MACHINE ESTIMATED COUNTS” and the hand count we should simple refer too as full and accurate count. This is why the law was written the way it was. Lets play the word game better.

    3. Republicans now want to add more ballots Okay lets just count all rejected ballots statewide. Fine Okay. Dems win even more
    Lets trot out more of our voters who did not count. Ederly etc, and yes military.

    4. Speaking of Military, I have so many friends in the military who tell their right wing parents – whatever they want to hear as far as who they will vote for, but vote the other way. (Thank God we have secret ballots). Point being most of the statistics you hear about military vote, especially actual combat soldiers, many many many vote Kerry and perhaps Gregoire.

  2. 2

    Larry spews:

    Hah! Relying on the Seattle Weekly for support. You truly are desperate. “Brilliant endgame”? If Gregoire was so brilliant she would have won by 200,000 in this state. Rossi ran a much better campaign, and it continues in that manner.

    And you quote a line that really sums it up. Imagine if it were written this way:

    “The process is so imperfect, and the 2004 Presidential election is so close, that we will never really know who won. All we can be certain of is that George Bush is declared the victor.”

    Would the Democrats be giving up in that circumstance? Seems to me they didn’t in 2000, not that it did them any good. We won’t give up either, and we’ll see if it results in any change.

  3. 3

    Nelson spews:

    I strongly urge all of the silly pseudo-number crunching GOP fanatics to follow the lead of their Ukrainian hero — and give up this silly little effort.

    Gregoire won, the election is over. Another one comes up every 2 years. You’re all totally tiresome.

    It’s New Year’s Eve. Enjoy the parties, have a Happy New Year and, above all, get a life!

  4. 4

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Rog–
    Do you actually know specific cases where legitimate votes weren’t counted? If so, please share the details with us. Better yet, get all the details and a sworn affadavit and send it to the Rossi camp ASAP. It’s the best way to shut those low-life R’s mouths up!! In fact Rog, please tell all your family and friends to do the same.

  5. 5

    Paul spews:

    What the Democrats need to realize, pay attention to and act upon very shortly is that this is as much the start to Rossi’s next campaign as anything else.

    BTW, Larry, we DID give up. Gore and Kerry both conceded.

  6. 6

    paul daniel spews:

    “The Democrats played a brilliant end game, aggressively hunting for votes that had been incorrectly disqualified.” Hello. Say what? You mean agressively hunting for Gregoire votes that had been incorectly disqualified.

    “Knock, knock knock. Hello. Did you happen to vote on an absentee bqallot in this years election?” “Yes, as a matter of fact I did.” “Did you happen to vote for Christine Gregoire?” “No. As a matter of fact I voted for Dino Rossi.” “Oh… Well thank you very much and have a good day.”

    Count every vote as long as it’s for the Queen Christine!

    paul daniel

  7. 7

    Larry spews:

    BTW Paul -

    You’re right – Gore conceded to Bush on election night 2000, then was informed by his Florida people that they could steal it, at which point he retracted his concession and dragged the country through a few months of BS.

    But you didn’t answer my question. If the statement was the following:

    “The process is so imperfect, and the 2004 Presidential election is so close, that we will never really know who won. All we can be certain of is that George Bush is declared the victor.”

    …do you HONESTLY believe that the Democrats wouldn’t be pursuing every lawful avenue of recourse and documenting every case of incompetence, possible fraud, and lack of accountability? Do you think Kerry would have conceded in that circumstance? If so, then why did he keep $15 million of his campaign funds? Couldn’t he have spent that on TV ads in Ohio? He was keeping that money for legal challenges and other possible costs that they anticipated after the election – they didn’t think Bush was going to mop the floor with the billionaire.

  8. 8

    Peter spews:

    Has anyone else had the experience of trying to talk rational and factual matters with someone who is obviously paranoid and in a delusional state…well, it does not work.

    You are eventually reduced to saying something like, OK, oh yah, maybe so, ah, and well, take care.

    LOOK, SEE, the data is wrong, and then, then after-counties have corrected the mistakes, then, it is the FIX.

    There will be no interest in most of what any avowed Democrat says to the right wing. They are deep in the era of theocracy and ideologies attached like clamps to the old GOP.

    Most of their ideas are not rational and factual conversation is not possible. Read their blogs. They do not now subscribe to non biased information, became it is too biased, great logic. All of it-the French, German, Canadian media. They listen to Rush and Fox and talk with people who agree that we will be invaded from Canada by the UN. Or that the biggest threat to marriage is the Lesbian couple together for 35 yeas.

    Big communication problem gap. The polarization is real. The fight for control of govt. is real, don’t expect any stripes to re arrange soon or easily.

  9. 9

    Larry spews:

    Peter, maybe the reason you have a communication gap is that you can’t complete sentences. Your spelling and syntax is terrible.

    There is a big difference between the Republican and Democratic parties. When the Republicans were out of power, they figured out the things that they were doing wrong and set about to change them.

    Now we’ve had one party gain seats in the House and Senate for three consecutive elections for the first time since 1924 – the Republicans!

    Now that the Democrats are out of power, are they trying to figure out what they are doing wrong? Heck no! They’re not doing anything wrong! It’s just that everybody who doesn’t vote for them is stupid, a neocon, a religious idealogue, and everything else. The Democratic Party has Homer Simpson syndrome: “Everybody’s stupid but me!”

    You’re out of power and the country is getting redder all the time. It’s time for you guys to come up with some new ideas, and quit recycling the 60s and the Clinton era. The world has changed around you – evolve or die.

  10. 10

    Peter spews:

    Paul, It is simply called working your base. All, all pieces of an partisian election compaign are directeed to that end. And then, with good work and message, moving some undecideds in the final weeks….you win or lose.

    The R’s did the same thing, same pitch, saw a scene on TV New from those days, but lacking the Dems. organizing and volunteers did not follow up as well.

    Your leadership in this state has been horrid for decades….

    And by the way, two of my closest and best friends, social and workplace, set all aside and put every day into that effort. I asked them about just doing Dems. They told me no. They called and told all that they talked to there were problems with their ballot and, THEN, followed up closely with the announced Democrats.

    Please don’t follow all the crappy propaganda to cover failures in organizing that Toadie Vance puts out….having been outsmarted and out organized so many times….

    Queen Christine is a real slam….She is a democratic progressive and not the demented Danish monach of old…

  11. 11

    Peter spews:

    Larry, get screwed. Communiction enough.

    Tired of two bit insults. Evolve, funny evolution back to the 1890s.

  12. 12

    paul daniel spews:

    Peter,

    You work your base before an election. That’s called good campaigning. When you go door to door after an election to qualify some and disqualify others, I’m sorry, but that’s not the definition of working your base, especially while repeatedly uttering the montra: “Count every vote.”

    That’s called Hypocracy. Blatant Hypocrcy! And the court should never have endorsed it. Partisans shoud not be responsible for determining the qualification of ballats. Yes, it’s true. The Democrats did it better than the Republicans. Why? Probably because innitially, the Republicans did not think it was proper.

    paul daniel

  13. 13

    Larry spews:

    Peter –

    What wonderful language you use, even if your spelling and syntax is horrible. I’m sorry, maybe I should have used ‘constructive’ criticism.

    Peter, have you tried using some sort of spell check on your entries so that we can understand what the fuck you’re writing about?

    How’s that you pathetic piece of shit? And before you all jump on me, please read the thread. I understand that I may have been a tad bit abrasive, but all of you had to read Peter’s post two or three times to understand what he was saying. I did not use any foul language until I was told to ‘Get screwed.’

    Peter, if you have mental problems, I sincerely apologize for making light of your inability to communicate effectively.

  14. 14

    Peter spews:

    Paul – they used phones, there was no door to door. What are you talking about – client/voter lists in King Co gained because of a law suit the Dems brought and won.

    The R’s thought this was not needed. They were smug and tedious and smarty pants. Sneering about that rabblefish organizing. Mistakes in judgement and in following the ball. Ballot, ballots, the substence of elections, not your phony PR.

    These were already registed voters who had signature match problems. Public record. The judge said sure – remember- 38 counties had already provided the information freely- King’s resistence to accepted practice was the first sign of big mistakes and fuck-ups and bad policy to come….

    The point is the Dems had a game plan, moved quickly, did the job and hustled several hundred corrected voter signatures into the system and helped their candidate a lot.- as the tiny margins to come showed in retrospect.

    Rossi got shortchanged by idiots on his coaching staff…he shoud hire a lot of Democrats, will take a lot of money, on his campaign next time….

    Think, he may have lost because of this one little piece, he should be angry at his staff, not Gregoire. They shortchanged him while on the payroll….

  15. 15

    John spews:

    Larry,

    Take your blood pressure meds. I can see your red face through your comments.

    I’ll grant you that Rossi was a slight improvement over Ellen Craswell. He had a little more TV slickness to him while at the same time maintaining his 100 percent approval rating from the WCU.

  16. 16

    Peter spews:

    Larry- No mental problems. Go to charm school to impress your friends. Don’t read my posts if it is a strain on your IQ.

  17. 17

    Larry spews:

    John –

    Nice try, but it falls flat! First of all, high blood pressure is a serious medical condition, much like mental illness. It is not something of which you should make fun or accuse others.

    If you can see anything through my comments, maybe you should cut down on the LSD.

  18. 18

    Larry spews:

    Peter, I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t picking on the disabled before I called you a stupid piece of worm-ridden shit. You’re not my friend, and I have no interest in trying to impress you, of all people.

    Remember, you told me to ‘Get screwed’ after I commented on your writing style. Cry all you want, you started the bullshit.

  19. 19

    Larry spews:

    And it’s funny how you guys are personally attacking me, rather than my ideas. I repeat:

    “Now that the Democrats are out of power, are they trying to figure out what they are doing wrong? Heck no! They’re not doing anything wrong! It’s just that everybody who doesn’t vote for them is stupid, a neocon, a religious idealogue, and everything else. The Democratic Party has Homer Simpson syndrome: “Everybody’s stupid but me!”

    Am I wrong?

  20. 20

    paul daniel spews:

    You guys insisting on making things personal and calling people names. You can do better. Give us all a break. Stick to the issues. Meet at Denny’s for a cup of coffe or something! My experience tells me that people aren’t nearly as odd as their e-mails make them out to be.

    paul daniel

  21. 21

    Josef spews:

    Goldy, as a Dinocrat, I want to respond:

    #1. “No court is going to set aside these results, simply because this election was “chaotic” or close.” I agree, and they shouldn’t. So does almost every newspaper editorial I’ve read except for The Chronicle (www.chronline.com) a while back – and I consider their honorary editor Mary “Marummy” Lane! You can guess why…

    #2. “If Republicans insist on believing that the only thing keeping them from dominating politics in this state is Democratic electoral fraud, then they should prepare themselves for many more years in the wilderness.” Well, I concur. Republicans are going to have to soften up on gay marriage, for one. And take a cue from Rob McKenna: regain the center ground (or at least the right of centre) and hold it. Dino Rossi honestly tried – he just wasn’t as intense as he could have been against, let’s be honest, a good candidate. Republicans are also going to have to prove themselves to be good environmental stewards, better fiscal managers than their federal counterparts, articulate a clear vision FORWARD, police their own, and be willing to make the investments in public services on an as-necessary basis.

    Aaah, that’s about when they stop being Republicans, eh?

  22. 22

    Peter spews:

    Larry – will tip toe around you. I grew up around factory workers, loggers, and sailors. Get screwed is nothing.

    The Eve of the New Year beckons. Best to all. And here’s to good political discussions of substence and wit and style and better spelling- huh

  23. 23

    Larry spews:

    Peter…’Get screwed is nothing’…’here’s to good political discussions of substance’.

    You’re a walking irony.

    “Now that the Democrats are out of power, are they trying to figure out what they are doing wrong? Heck no! They’re not doing anything wrong! It’s just that everybody who doesn’t vote for them is stupid, a neocon, a religious idealogue, and everything else. The Democratic Party has Homer Simpson syndrome: “Everybody’s stupid but me!”

    I’m waiting for some substance. Am I wrong?

  24. 24

    John spews:

    Ok Larry… I’ll take a crack at putting you out of your misery.

    Yes, you are wrong. Washington is a state of independent minded votes who often split tickets. They’ll vote against George “Term Limits” Nethercutt while voting for Dino Rossi. They’ll elect more D’s to the legislature while almost voting in Rossi.

    Dem’s will learn from the near defeat of their candidate for governor. They will be ready for whoever steps up to the plate against Maria Cantwell and they will handily get out the vote for Chris Gregoire’s re-election. During the preparation for all this, they will pass sensible legislation like tax reform that will pay for badly needed infrastructure for Washington’s economic growth which will benefit all Washingtonians.

    You are dead wrong with your caricature. Your candidate lost, get over it. When your party rejects Rovian policy, style and tactics, your candidates may have a shot with the independent minded voters of Washington.

  25. 25

    Larry spews:

    John –

    I have to admit, that was an admirable try, but you do have myopia. Or maybe I didn’t make myself clear – I was speaking of the country, not the state. Then again, the statement that we Republicans are in power should have tipped you off.

    The Dems are not out of power in this state. In fact, their power is the only thing that kept them in power – certainly it wasn’t new, vibrant ideas. When you look up milquetoast in the dictionary, there is a picture of Gary Locke, and Gregoire will be no different.

    But as many Democratic ideas, your thesis has its root in Socialism:
    “sensible legislation like tax reform that will pay for badly needed infrastructure for Washington’s economic growth”

    What tax reform would that be, increased taxes? Like $600 million of increased taxes?

    The reform Washington needs is DECREASED REGULATION. Tax reform? You have to be clearer than some general pie-in-the-sky talking point.

    “Independent minded voters of Washington”? Methinks you have had too many swigs of the Kool-Aid, my friend. I’ve lived many places in the U.S., and Washington State has the least independent-minded people of all of them. I was a moderate in other places, and here I’m branded as a right wing nazi (not by you, but many others). Everything is relative, and what passes for independent thinking here is WA is really blue-blood liberal socialist beliefs. Look at the charts – three of King Cook County’s 13 Council Districts gave Gregoire a 120,00 vote lead. Essentially, three council districts in King County gave Gregoire the (temporary) victory. You should not try to speak for all Washingtonians – outside of these three districts, it was actually a Dino Rossi LANDSLIDE.

    The country is becoming more red, more Republican, every day. Bush increased his votes among almost every sector of society. Gallup reports that more people identify themselves as Republican than Democrat, for the first time in decades. The Republicans control the White House, the House, the Senate, and the Supreme Court. Hispanics, other minorities, and women are all increasingly Republican. Seattle and San Francisco are the bronze-age outposts of backward thinking in a country that is moving well into the 21st century.

    Enjoy your little commune of paradise while it lasts. Because it won’t be long before the national Democratic party implodes, and takes whatever blue fringes are left in this country along with it.

    Peace out, bro’.

  26. 26

    Richard Pope spews:

    Comment by John— 12/31/04 @ 5:21 pm

    The Democrats will never pass any sort of “progressive tax reform” in this state. By that, I am talking about a progressive income tax, that would result in people with the highest income being in the highest tax brackets and paying the highest percentage of their income in income taxes.

    The answer is simple — people making $100,000 per year and more in Washington vote Democrat. Gregoire carried all of those categories, which comprise 22% of the voters.

    http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/20.....lls.0.html

    Rossi carried all categories between $30,000 and $100,000 per year, comprising 58% of the voters. And Gregoire carried voters making less than $30,000 per year, making up 20% of the voters.

    The Democrats instead will attempt to jack up the sales tax even more. Since sales tax is not paid on food or rent, the biggest expenses for low income voters, it is not that unpopular with those people. Since the sales tax is not progressive, and it is not imposed on a lot of services, nor is it imposed on out-of-state expenses (like airline tickets, vacations, etc.), it is not unpopular with upper income people. The impact of the sales tax instead falls on the middle class, which forms the base of the Republican party.

  27. 27

    Larry spews:

    John –

    You have myopia – I was speaking of the country, not this state. My comment that the Republicans are in power should have tipped you off.

    First, you seem like a Socialist: “sensible legislation like tax reform that will pay for badly needed infrastructure for Washington’s economic growth”? What does that mean? The only sensible tax reform is cutting taxes. Increasing taxes, no matter what the funds are used for, will never result in economic growth. Furthermore, Washington is over-regulated, and every regulation is a tax. That’s why companies are moving out of, and not into, Washington State.
    Please name a few international corporations that have moved TO Washington State since Gary Locke has been Governor. Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, et al, are only here because they started here – ask Boeing! With all the over-regulation in this state, no companies are moving in.

    “Independent minded voters of Washington”? What are you talking about? Have you ever lived anywhere else? The independent voters of Washington voted for Dino – Kerry won the state 53-46, yet Dino tied Gregoire 49-49. It was the lemming Democrats of Washington that voted for Gregoire. I’ve lived many places in the country, and Washington is the most liberal, and least independent, of any place I have lived.

    The Democrats are in power now only because they have been in power – not because of any new, vibrant ideas.

    Seattle and San Francisco are some of the last bronze-age outposts in a country that is becoming progressively redder and more Republican every day. Bush kicked Kerry’s ass, and more people voted for Bush than live in France or the UK or Italy. The Republicans control the House, Senate, and Supreme Court. Gallup reported that more people identify themselves as Republican than Democrat for the first time in decades. Bush increased his percentages in every sector of society.

    Seattle has always been a few years behind the times. The ideals of the Republican tied with the Democrats this time, and will kick their ass next time. We got a Republican Attorney General elected – and he’ll be starting the investigation into King Cook County elections once he is sworn in. Think about it – if the Democratic Party in this state were so strong and Gregoire was such a good candidate, why didn’t she win by 200,000? Whether or not Dino Rossi won, the writing is on the wall. Just because you can’t read it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

    Peace out.

  28. 28

    Larry spews:

    Some website – I’ve been shut out. My last two comments did not post. So much for enlightened debate. Later losers.

  29. 29

    Goldy spews:

    Larry, read the small print and then go fuck yourself before accusing me of shutting anybody out. Due to blog spamming, messages with more than one link, or that contain certain keywords common to blog spam is held for my approval. And believe it or not, I have life, and don’t sit at my computer all day waiting to approve the your meanspirited, vile slop.

    And while I’ve got you on the line, Larry, go back to the first comment in this thread — the one that you posted — read it again, and then go back through the archives of this blog and see if you can figure out why it makes you sound like such a kneejerk, arrogant asshole.

    This ain’t Sound Politics. Yes… I do my share of spinning, but I also try to encourage open debate. Just because I quoted the Weekly doesn’t mean I agree with everything they wrote. It doesn’t mean I’m trying to achieve some kind of partisan objective. I just thought it would be of interest to my readers.

    Happy New Year.

  30. 30

    paul daniel spews:

    Goldy,

    “Go fuck yourself… Happy New Year?”

    An oximoron?

    Rule # 1: don’t sweat the small stuff.

    Rule# 2: it’s all small stuff.

    Happy New Year… really.

    paul daniel

  31. 31

    Cheryl spews:

    OK, I’m still reeling from the notion that the Dems tried to “steal” Florida in 2000. Um, from what I recall, when the media did a full state recount, Gore came out ahead. So if there was any stealing done, it was by the Rs….

    As far as this goes, I say sock it to ‘em Dino. Because the more you whine and beg for a do-over, the worse you’re going to look when you try to go up against Cantwell in ’08. I am worried about the possiblity of that race, but my fears wane as Dino-Boy pouts and demands another election. I mean, is this not the same guy who said Gregoire should concede for the good of the state??? And another thing, I hear Rs bitching about the fact that the counties will have to reimburse the Ds for the recount — but haven’t heard a thing about the Rs agreeing to pay for the $4 million ‘Election Because We Didn’t Like The Way The First One Turned Out.” Of course, they’d come up with the money if it would help — buying an election outcome isn’t out of the question — why not just go wholesale and finance the whole damn thing??

    To borrow a phrase from some Dino supporter before the hand recount, “We won. You lost. Get over it.”

    Cheryl

    P.S. I don’t think this is quite the same — I don’t think we actually kicked Rs off the voter rolls or kept affluent white folk from getting to their polling places — but I think I must be feeling a little bit of what the Rs felt after Florida in 2000. And I gotta say, it feels pretty damn good.

  32. 32

    Josef spews:

    Cheryl,

    “from what I recall, when the media did a full state recount, Gore came out ahead”

    Where did you here that? I’ve heard the Miami Herald did one and came up with the opposite result, for starters…

  33. 33

    Monica spews:

    The is a poster here who does not apply the rules of imagination to the word oximoron – nor do they seem to understand the universe of self pleasuring by apparati carried in longish rounded containers by many women. Fewer men.

    Of course, lack of imagination is a failure of those on the right wing who think the missionary position in the dark is as good as it gets. Since in the possible Rossi years, sex education will be abstinence only – now there is an oximoron – sex education as abstinence only – imagination will boost the need for porno mags at high school. Oh, well. Porn sells best in the red states.

    Paul, get some imagination stimuli, have a really frank conversation with a slightly older sexually liberated feminst woman. At her place, one bottle of really good blush wine, she will tell you the brand. And, could be lotta fun – learning some imagination.

  34. 34

    Chuck spews:

    OK, I’m still reeling from the notion that the Dems tried to “steal” Florida in 2000. Um, from what I recall, when the media did a full state recount, Gore came out ahead. So if there was any stealing done, it was by the Rs….>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Actually this is a fallacy democrats love to keep going, a Florida recount was done not once but THREE times (unofficially) and Bush won hands down period. The dems dont like to mention this

  35. 35

    DCF spews:

    -Paul D., They did count the absentee votes in King Co. for Rossi, or Christine would have won by a lot more than 129 votes.

    -Larry, I honestly believe that Kerry is a campaign boob, or he would have stuck around to see Ohio counted and contested! And he gave some of his campaign money to the Demos in Washington state. Oh, and as to the increase in “red” and decrease in “blue,” the “blues” have the money and population; the “reds” have the empty landscapes. Yup! The United States of Canada vs. Jesusland! Also want to let you know that Goldy tried to get a Homestead Exemption passed for property taxes a while back and failed, that would have been real tax reform. Hey, Goldy, didn’t the Repubs control the legislature at that time? And more people voted for Kerry, a Democrat, than ever before in history.

    +Richard Pope, high sales tax can do one thing, it can reduce consumerism in the state. I’m for income tax, and becoming like our sister to the south, Oregon. Small business owners would have a lot less red tape to go through if they didn’t have to collect sales tax.

    I would ask all Demos that read this blog, to write their Congress persons and ask that they support Representative Conyers’ bill challenging the electoral votes from Ohio. Kerry helped Christine, now it’s our turn to help the voters of Ohio.

    Everyone, I’ve lived in nine different states, and the people living in Western Washington are the smartest, most independent, and giving, of any place I’ve called home. Happy New Year to you all!

  36. 37

    Cheryl spews:

    Actually, when they did the partial recounts in Florida that Gore had been seeking, Bush won. If they had done a full-state recount (as some newspapers did “unofficially” then Gore would have won.

  37. 38

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    That is called the big Gore mistake. Washingt n Dems did not repeat it…..for all the right reasons.

  38. 39

    Cheryl spews:

    Wrong again, Cheryl – Bush won Florida in EVERY recount – even those by organizations supporting a Gore outcome. I do believe just a bit of research on your part would prove that. And wrong on Cantwell too – she’s up in 06 not o8. Change your “handle good buddy” you’re giving Cheryl’s everywhere a bad name.

  39. 42

    jcricket spews:

    Try actually reading the article before you dismiss it as an “editorial” – it carefully quotes studies and refers to the actual data, not just headlines. Some of the media studies put out were preliminary (hmm, sounds like a blog I know).

    While that was the tone of coverage in these leading news outlets, its still a bit jarring to go outside the articles and read the actual results of the statewide review of 175,010 disputed ballots.

    Full Review Favors Gore, the Washington Post said in a box on page 10, showing that under all standards applied to the ballots, Gore came out on top. The New York Times’ graphic revealed the same outcome.

    Earlier, less comprehensive ballot studies by the Miami Herald and USA Today had found that Bush and Gore split the four categories of disputed ballots depending on what standard was applied to assessing the ballots punched-through chads, hanging chads, etc. Bush won under two standards and Gore under two standards.

    The new, fuller study found that Gore won regardless of which standard was applied and even when varying county judgments were factored in. Counting fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots, Gore won by 115 votes. With any dimple or optical mark, Gore won by 107 votes. With one corner of a chad detached or any optical mark, Gore won by 60 votes. Applying the standards set by each county, Gore won by 171 votes.

    This core finding of Gores Florida victory in the unofficial ballot recount might surprise many readers who skimmed only the headlines and the top paragraphs of the articles. The headlines and leads highlighted hypothetical, partial recounts that supposedly favored Bush.

    See http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....Nov11.html for more detail.

    The WA Post article in question is titled: “Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush”, but that refers to the recounts requested by Gore (not statewide). The subhead is more revealing “But Study Finds Gore Might Have Won Statewide Tally of All Uncounted Ballots”

    Basically, if either of the limited recounts that the candidates asked for were undertaken, Bush would might still won. But if Gore requested a full statewide recount (something that didn’t exist in the Florida statutes at the time), similar to what the Dems and Gregoire got in our current election, Gore likely would have won. Sometimes you actually have to read deeper to get a full picture.

    Oh, and perhaps the Republicans who illegally counted absentee ballots (including military ones) in Florida could be accused of “centralized voting fraud”. Republican lawyers argued to reject absentee ballots in Democratic counties and at the same time accept absentee ballots in Republican counties with the same clear problems violating Florida state election law. Republicans love to tout technicalities when they disenfranchise Democrats, but will gladly “set aside the law” when it helps them win elections.

    See: http://www.nytimes.com/images/.....nt_00.html

    The article at WikiPedia puts it well:

    In November 2001, after conducting an unofficial recount of Floridas ballots, the news outlets discovered that if all legally cast votes had been counted – regardless of the standard used for evaluating chads – Gore won . But when legal votes were evaluated, based on the standards set in law at the time, Bush won.

    The standards they are talking about include the lack of a hand recount and no such thing as a full statewide recount (it’s not built-in to Florida election law, like it is in Washington). Tens of thousands of over-votes, that had clear voter intent, don’t count in Florida.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.....tion,_2000 for more detail.

    More on point, as Goldy has pointed out many times, if all the legally cast ballots are counted with statewide, uniform, voter-friendly standards (essentially what the Dems asked for in their first suit), Dems win. Republicans traditionally win close elections by suppressing voters or applying standards in an unequal fashion to disqualify votes. The current hullabalo about military disenfranchisement is a convienent about face for the Republicans.

  40. 43

    jcricket spews:

    While waiting for my more substantive post to show up (has many links), you should try actually reading into the studies. For example, the one at the NY Times which starts off saying “Bush would have won” actually has this in the middle

    But the consortium, looking at a broader group of rejected ballots than those covered in the court decisions, 175,010 in all, found that Mr. Gore might have won if the courts had ordered a full statewide recount of all the rejected ballots. This also assumes that county canvassing boards would have reached the same conclusions about the disputed ballots that the consortium’s independent observers did. The findings indicate that Mr. Gore might have eked out a victory if he had pursued in court a course like the one he publicly advocated when he called on the state to “count all the votes.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/11.....38;ei=5070

    Here’s a quote from the NY Times about the counties that “stole” the election for Bush by illegally counting absentee ballots in heavily Republican counties (while rejecting the same in Democratic counties)

    Another complicating factor in the effort to untangle the result is the overseas absentee ballots that arrived after Election Day. A New York Times investigation earlier this year showed that 680 of the late- arriving ballots did not meet Florida’s standards yet were still counted. The vast majority of those flawed ballots were accepted in counties that favored Mr. Bush, after an aggressive effort by Bush strategists to pressure officials to accept them.

    The NY Times article refers to the same consortium report (the media consortium that conducted the recount) that the PBS article does. And my other post has more detail from the Washington Post.

    Sure, the newspapers chose to lead with the simplistic headline that there are scenarios under which Bush would have won. But there are equally plausible scenarios under which Gore would have won. And those scenarios mirror the ones that the Republicans are now arguing for in Washington (“count every valid vote”).

    And hey, for laughs, why not read this article at Slate, which points out a report that the Orlando Sentinel did, indicating there’s more to the recount than you know.

    http://slate.msn.com/?id=1006758

  41. 44

    zip spews:

    jcricket, to quote the NYT article: the most thorough examination of Florida’s uncounted ballots provides ammunition for both sides. But the conclusion remains that under Florida law Bush won based on the NYT article. The other fact that remains is that Bush won again so 2004 so the 2000 Florida deal is history. It doesn’t help anybody’s credibility in 2005 to try to convince people that Bush won Florida in 2000 because of where we now are.

  42. 46

    bby spews:

    Todays polls – wait three months. If the people are with Dino, run him for something else…..

  43. 47

    jcricket spews:

    I’m just pointing out that Cheryl’s wrong. And anyone who believes that Bush won “every recount” scenario is mistaken. And if you want to understand the problems with elections voting technology and our electoral systems biases, you need to actually go deeper than “Bush won, get over it”.

    For example, to understand why Gregoire should have called for a recount, and why she followed a “full state recount by hand” strategy, you need to actually understand the results of the various recount strategies. The wider the recount, the more vote errors were corrected (like over-votes), the better it would have been for Gore.

    To understand the strategy for whether or not Rossi should contest, you also need to understand the courts’ rulings and the perception issues Gore and Bush faced. It’s not just about whether the evidence convinces your solid base. You could show them a dirty napkin and they’d follow you. It’s about having evidence that convinces the courts, or having an argument that the people in the middle (all the supposed “Dinocrats” will actually follow you with.

    Gregoire is also taking a lesson from Bush 2000, which is that people have short memories. After she’s sworn in, people will quickly forget about this election nonsense and like/dislike Gregoire based on how she governs. In fact, people are already very fatigued, regardless of how they feel about who is “legitimate”, so Rossi’s got a huge uphill battle to climb.

    Sure, there will be wingnuts who trot this out next election season, just like the far left tried to use Bush “stealing the election in 2000″ again in 2004. But that strategy won’t win you the majority of votes, which is all that matters. Huge numbers of people had questions about whether Bush had won the election “fairly” in 2000. Bush’s approval rating was below 50% in 2004 (and it’s still dropping). But those polls didn’t matter in getting Bush elected, just like it doesn’t matter if people are now saying “hmm, revote doesn’t sound bad” or “I don’t know who won” to Gregoire.