by Goldy, 02/24/2005, 1:28 AM

A tip of the hat to Paul for pointing me towards this Letter to the Editor in The Olympian:

Republicans are party of choice for prisoners

I write regarding the Republican hot-button issue du jour — felons voting.

The federal prison camp where I was ensconced recently for 16 months housed a large number of white-collar criminals — CPAs, investment bankers and stockbrokers, corporate lawyers, CFOs and CEOs, who were Republicans almost to a man, and had their Wall Street Journals mailed to them daily.

Indeed, almost the only progressive-minded souls there were in the sparse ranks of us pot growers, together of course with many of the political prisoners.

During my taxpayer-subsidized sabbatical, I initiated countless discussions with fellow inmates designed to assess their political preferences.

What I found was that the huge plurality of inmates where I was, of all ethnicities and backgrounds (most of them, like Big Pharma, common drug peddlers), were fundamentally apolitical — most of them having never voted, ever, or even registered to vote, and could not have cared less about being denied their right to vote.

Yet, when asked whether they preferred a liberal Democratic or Republican candidate or philosophy, they, like the white-collar guys, consistently chose Republican, by margins of 65 percent to 80 percent.

Why?

Because in their view, Republicans were the virile, tough, action-taking, man’s-man party, while liberals and Democrats were reviled as soft, weak, passive, femme — minority and gay-hugging pushovers and saps.

So why, I wonder, should Republicans have their undies in a knot about felons voting when from my direct experience Republicans clearly are the red-blooded all-American felon’s party of choice?

Brydon Stewart, Olympia

Republicans are “the virile, tough, action-taking, man’s-man party?” Gee, I don’t know… looking at soft-spoken Dino, I’m guessing that if he had gone to prison like his mentor, he probably would have ended up becoming somebody’s bitch. But I guess that would have made him a “man’s man,” wouldn’t it?

103 Responses to “Rossi lawyers find over 1000 felons voted… for Rossi

1. zapporo spews:

Brydon, Your sick twisted prison fantasies have no place in such a high class blog as…. Oh never mind, I forgot where I was at.

2. Jpgee spews:

zapporo @ 1, you have no place in a blog such as THIS….get a life troll

3. thehim spews:

I’ve been wondering this too. My co-blogger had an interesting discussion with someone who is now a felon due to DUI convictions, and it has made him strongly anti-Democrat because he blames Democrats for our absurdly-low .08 alcohol limit.

It’s only speculation that felons are mostly voting for Democrats, even in King County.

4. Jason spews:

Huh? You’ve got to be kidding me. Because one former inmate at one Federal institution says that he thinks the majority of his fellow inmates identified with the GOP, that somehow translates into 1000+ known felon voters casting ballots for Rossi?

I’ve heard of stretching things, but this is just incredible. By that same logic we could use one weather report from the Chicago area (which recently saw below 0 temps) to prove that global warming is reversing.

5. jcricket spews:

To be fair, the studies done at a national level indicate a strong Democratic preference for ex-felons. Some of this has to do with the high number of African Americans who are incarcerated, usually a strong Democratic constituency. One of the reasons the Republicans continue to oppose felon “re-enfranchisement” is that they fear it would add millions (between 1 and 4) of new Democrats to the rolls. Republicans cite other reasons (“purity of the ballot box”, “punishment”), but it’s really a Democractic voter suppression tactic that also happens to play well to their “law and order” base.

Here’s some data: http://www.hrw.org/reports98/vote/

6. jcricket spews:

Some more data: http://www.righttovote.org/news_news_descrip.asp?ID=36

Good to know we’re the only Democratic country that routinely disenfranchises its citizens after they’ve served/paid their debt to society ;)

7. chardonnay spews:

Does Jenny Durkin know this? This is breaking news!
You are so entertaining, one felon’s statement and you run with it. It actually is a slam to your girly man party. Is this felon from Arkansas by any chance?

“while liberals and Democrats were reviled as soft, weak, passive, femme – minority and gay-hugging pushovers and saps.”

8. Daniel K spews:

Republicans are “the virile, tough, action-taking, man’s-man party?” Gee, I don’t know… looking at soft-spoken Dino, I’m guessing that if he had gone to prison like his mentor, he probably would have ended up becoming somebody’s bitch. But I guess that would have made him a “man’s man,” wouldn’t it?

Perhaps that’s how Rossi could get his man date.

9. John spews:

Goldy,

Wicked, wicked post. Thanks for that.

Come to think of it. We haven’t seen much of Dino lately. I wonder why? I think the WSRP and the BIAW don’t want to risk familiarity breeding contempt for their “girly-man”.

10. torridjoe spews:

jcricket–I looked through both links, and found no data on the voting patterns of felons. Just because a third are African American, and African Americans vote overwhelmingly Democrat, doesn’t say anything about how felons vote. The African-American turnout rate is lower than for whites as well, so what if a significant majority of felons who vote are white? And certainly Washington state is not festooned with black folk; most of the felons voting in Washington were likely to be white as well.

I don’t think Goldy’s point was to suggest seriously that all felons are voting for Rossi…it was to point out that making assumptions about how felons vote is a dangerous prospect.

11. Chee spews:

WOW. A mass generalization of how felons vote, no way. Wham, Bham and thank you Maam Lane for slamming the door on Rossi’s behind. She says, “I wonder if she (meaning Governor Christine Gregoire) still believes that, now that we know there are at least 2000 mystery votes in King County and more than a thousand illegal felon votes.” Know what Maam Lane….you just hit the jackpot. Nobody won the last election according to your call. After all, isn’t a three thousand plus error enough to make for a refiling in all positions acceptable. Going along with Lane’s flagrant terms, we need a “legitimately” elected official. Pardon me, Maam Lane but shouldn’t that be plural? We need “legitimately” elected OFFICIALS.

12. Goldy spews:

TJ @10,

That’s exactly my point, TJ. Personally, I find (u)SP’s thesis of “distributed vote fraud” extremely offensive, considering one of its main assumptions is that Democrats are more likely to cheat than Republicans. Likewise, this notion that felons favored Gregoire is not only offensive, but entirely nonsensical and nonempirical. I believe I’ve seen media reports of 9 felons who have revealed their choice, and only one voted for Gregoire. It is just plain silly to assume that felons favored one side or the other…. and so I posted something silly on the subject.

But here’s the thing… I think Republicans know this is silly, and it’s just another part of their mean, cynical, 2008 gubernatorial campaign.

13. Goldy spews:

Jpgee @2

I’m not sure what a “troll” is — and Zapporo may very well be one — but we never ask our trolls to go away. We try to engage them, persuade them, reform them, and if all else fails, abuse them. But as long as Zapporo observes the basics of blog etiquette, he/she/it is welcome to stay and participate.

14. rightwingbob spews:

Goldy@12
So if I understand you it was OK to have all of the irregularities such as felons voting, ballots that were changed, ballots mysteriously found. I guess that if we have another election with a democrat losing by 50 or 100 votes you would not complain even if we found the same irregularities?

15. chardonnay spews:

Goldy, this IS your blog and you MAY do what you want, WASH is still free as of TODAY. But, I point out one thing, 1/2 the traffic on your blog is the opposing viewpoint. Start kicking people off and you are that much farther away from catching real advertising. Unless you don’t care to become “almost famous” and recieve govn’t funding.
Consider also, those of us with the opposing views won’t be devastated if you don’t keep us! I am still waiting to be “enlightened” here though. The fact that your blog has both viewpoints makes it that much more interesting. You should be flattered and proud of how many hits you get. I see numerous blogs that have yet to get 1 comment, despite the Nov election.
Good Job!

16. dumdum spews:

The reason most “non republicans” can defend gregoire as governor, i believe, is due to the unfounded claims of “felons voting, ballots changed, ballots mysteriously found”.
if any of these things were true, why cant republicans produce anything but rhetoric. rossis camp knows if there were felons voting, it will detract more votes from the republicans than from the democrats. this is the reason for just wanting to show “irregularities” were present, and not showing actual numbers of fraudulent votes, and for whom they were cast. laughable that these irregularities are not new, but were readily acceptable when rossi was temporarily in the lead.
rossi was telling the democrats to hurry up and concede, and do the right thing, knowing all the while, elections are never 100% accurate, but now he is on the loser team, he wants 100%.
it just shows the republicans have no shame, and no conscience.
they will attempt to win by force regardless of consequence.
they have done it before, they will do it again. if bridges lets them throw this election out by allegations alone, without throwing out the entire 2004 election including the president, then a crime will truly have been committed. (again)

17. dumdum spews:

char, the only blogs that kick people off are republican blogs like shifty sharky. not that i would go to that loser site anyway.

18. RDC spews:

Jpgee @ 2

Keeping with the troll metaphor, my unsolicited, but good, advice is, don’t take the bait.

On the larger issue of the felon vote. With nothing more than my own sense of principle and the experience of Maine and Vermont to back the opinion, I think the right to vote should never be denied to any citizen. This right should be unrevokable, for any reason. Yes, administrative rules are needed to protect against fraud, but voting is not a privilege, it is the bedrock foundation of a democracy. I know and respect the arguments of those who favor taking away the vote for reasons defined in law. My counter-arguments are twofold. One, if one reason can be defined in law, so can other reasons, and this bedrock underpinning of democracy can slowly be eroded, a few votes at a time. The second is that the vote is the one place in our society where all persons truly are equal; the soldier’s vote from a combat zone is equal to the President’s, and the down-and-outer in Pioneer Square is as much enfranchised as is a high-salaried executive in an office high overhead. In my view, taking the vote away from anyone diminishes this sense of unity in equality for everyone.

19. dumdum spews:

very nice rdc

20. rightwingbob spews:

RDC @12
Should we not have certain requirements to vote? Such as proof of citizenship as of now you say who you are and sign your name no ID required. You should speak English and basic understanding of how government works. You should not have abused the privileges that are afforded you as a citizen, like steal from others or murder someone. I don’t know about anyone else but I believe that voting is a privilege as well as a right and basic requirements are asking too much when going to a polling place.

21. torridjoe spews:

rwb @ 20
Proof of citizenship is required when you register, is it not?

It can’t be a privilege AS WELL AS a right. It’s either one or the other.

22. jcricket spews:

TJ – Just FYI, we’re on the same side on this issue, but statistics are clear about the voting patterns of felons (at least nationally).

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0101.thompson.html

However, to your nuanced point, you can’t make a leap from that nation-wide voting pattern to specifically assigning the votes of 1000 felons in a single county, especially in a state that has a “non-representative” prison population. It’s quite possible that the felons who voted in this election are not representative even of the prison population in WA (that is, maybe white collar criminals are more likely to “forget” that they need to do some paperwork in WA to get their voting rights restored).

Just so it’s clear, I’m not in favor of felon disenfranchisement. It doesn’t make any sense from any non-partisan angle you approach it. Felons, after serving their sentence, should be automatically re-enfranchised, period. Your ability to pay financial fines or jump through beauracratic hoops shouldn’t stand in the way of you regaining your right to vote once you’ve served your time. The plus side of this policy is that it would be fairly easy to know who is allowed to vote in a election. Namely, anyone in jail can’t vote, anyone not in jail (who hasn’t illegally escaped) can. There, felon database magically easier to keep up to date. But why do I guess that Republicans won’t sign onto my plan?

BTW, I’m not sure I would go as far as the states that allow felons to vote while incarcerated.

23. Goldy spews:

To echo the sentiment… serving the public as an elected official is a privilege. Voting is a right and an obligation.

24. jcricket spews:

Ah, there we go, original study: http://www.soc.umn.edu/~uggen/felon_disenfranchisement.htm

25. rightwingbob spews:

joe@21
What did you have to show to vote, I gave them my address and name and I signed the form saying that I am an American citizen I showed no ID.? My kids had to have a birth certificate to get their drivers license but to register to vote nothing but their word. My opinion that voting is a right as well as a privilege.

26. Chee spews:

The problem is lack of uniform voting laws, each state differs. In the case of those released from prison on a former felony charge, some states never allow them to vote, others have a wait period. While others stipulate other aspects such as court fines must be paid before applying to court for certificate of release to vote. Bush when governor of Texas removed the wait period there. It is all about never again or different ways to process paper to be able to reestablish voting rights that have been lost while encarcerated as a felon. Most criminals, other than white collar, may not be learned enough to know what to do. Our system badly fails the released. Depending what state you were convicted in, even after moving to Washington state, you must first obtain a release in state you were convicted in. All this shifting just to be able to vote is discouraging. Yes, former felons can not own or carry a gun but what does being an x-felon have to do with right to vote. If you looked into everyone’s dark past or closet, a lot should not have a right to vote, but they can. Archaic and barbaric laws remain on the books that are unconstitutional. Voting rights in ANY state should be restored automatically upon release from doing time. They have paid their debt. Having to pay all court fines before getting back your voting rights is more discrimination. The right to vote laws should have been overhauled long ago and made uniform through out the states. But no,… each state has done as they dam well please. All states vote our Pres. in office with every state applying a different way of penalizing former felons when it comes to the issue of right to vote. The damaging policy is to blame for much of the confusing ta-do.

27. jcricket spews:

Goldy is exactly right. Universal suffrage (or near universal) is one of the things that makes our democracy so much better than some of the other “representative governments”.

Of course, there have been many battles about how “universal” the “right” to vote is. But over time, the people in favor of restrictions have lost all those battles – extending the right to vote to non-landowners, blacks, women, recent immigrants, people 18-21, etc. See the “Right to Vote”, by Alexander Keyssar, for a comprehensive history.

http://www.ksg.harvard.edu/virtualbooktour/keyssar.htm

I refer to this book a lot, because it’s a great read for anyone wanting to understand the history of voting in America.

28. Chris spews:

dumdum @ 16

You have no idea what you are talking about – idiot.

29. jcricket spews:

rightwingbob @ 25 – It’s either a right or a privilege, not both. It’s an either or thing. You’re free to argue that voting is a privilege, to be taken away at the writ/whim of the government, but then, by definition, voting is not a right.

30. rightwingbob spews:

Jcricket @25
If you have not had the right to vote such as Iraq or the former eastern bloc countries I think that you would feel it is not only your right but a privilege to be able to vote. I do not want the government to take it away and never would advocate it. I think that we need to look at voting much differently and take it more seriously than may of us do today.

31. dumdum spews:

chris=troll

32. Erik spews:

Yet, when asked whether they preferred a liberal Democratic or Republican candidate or philosophy, they, like the white-collar guys, consistently chose Republican, by margins of 65 percent to 80 percent.

Yes and this is likely old news to Rossi’s team. Had they actually believed that the felons had voted for Gregoire, they would have long ago taken the depositions of the felons. They already know many of their names and addresses. They could schedule their depositions tomorrow.

No, the GOP powers that be apparently have no intention of doing this even though they have ample time and money at their disposal to do so.

33. Goldy spews:

How about this for a compromise?… We are all privileged to live in a nation where voting is a right.

34. dumdum spews:

the right to vote is as basic as the right to eat. as basic as the right to feel sunshine. as basic as the right to procreate.
as basic as the right to live. it is the people that try to deny these, that are the roots of all evils.

DUMDUM 23:13 verse 17

35. rightwingbob spews:

Chee@26
I agree in uniformity by states would help and I agree many felons may not have crimes that should bar them from voting, but right now that is the law in many states. Should we allow felons in states that say they are not allowed to vote to vote because you and I say it is right , do we take away more states right to regulate their elections (remember most elections are statewide and local not federal) .I also agree if we looked into the pasts of others we might find black spots that might be a problem , but lets be realistic there are people that vote now that have now idea what or who they are voting for but are still able to vote by law. Do we follow the laws rules and regulations I think so, however if we find problems we need to change them by using the system not by breaking the law

36. rightwingbob spews:

Goldy@33
I agree 100%

37. Goldy spews:

rightwingboob @14,

Did I say that? On a number of occasions I have expressed my empathy for Rossi and his supporters, especially considering the fact that for a couple weeks there, they thought he won. That must be absolutely heartbreaking. And yes, if it had been the other way around, I would have been awfully suspicious. But at some point, absent evidence that irregularities or illegal votes actually changed the outcome, I would have become realistic enough to know when it was over.

Notice, you don’t see the right-wing blogs spending much time arguing the legal details anymore. That’s because those who understand the legal details realize how slim Rossi’s chances of prevailing actually are. Instead, they focus on a thousand felon votes, which they themselves insist cannot be proven to have been cast one way or other, despite the fact that the statute clearly says they must.

They are no longer arguing this on legal grounds, but are rather kicking up a dust storm of allegations in hopes of erroding Gregoire’s ability to govern. This is naked partisan politics. It has nothing to do with the law or the truth.

38. torridjoe spews:

jcricket @ 22
thanks for the cites. Very helpful. I must say, however, that as a sociologist I see a major flaw in their methodology. They use turnout estimates for non-felon voters, and then adjust turnout for felons based on their race, age, gender, education, etc. All of which is valid on its face, except for one thing–it ignores entirely the concept that felon status might be a major determinant of both turnout and preference. They admit upfront there is no survey data to indicate how felons might vote, and then assume that felons will vote just like anyone else who shares their personal characteristics, despite being perhaps fundamentally different due to their status as felons.

Short answer: I’m entirely unconvinced. In any case, they allow that their holding would likely only impact very close races where there are strict restrictions on felon voting. I don’t believe WA has such strict rules–primarily because some felons can in fact vote in WA. A study of ex-felons who are now able to vote would be awesome–but at this stage I know of none that have been conducted.

I agree with you on the preferred rules for when felons should and shouldn’t be allowed to vote, however.

rwb @ 25
I didn’t have to show anything; I vote by mail.
If you don’t have to show proof of citizenship upon REGISTERING (not voting), then there is a flaw in the WA system. Article VI Section I says:
All persons of the age of eighteen years or over who are citizens of the United States, and who have lived in the state, county, and precinct thirty days immediately preceding the election at which they offer to vote, except those disqualified by Article VI, Section 3 of this Constitution, shall be entitled to vote at all elections.

39. torridjoe spews:

Erik @ 32

I don’t know if they intend to depose them all, but they certainly intend to submit the list of names–because they have to in order to get them included in the challenge. And Mary Lane indicated yesterday that they certainly would be doing so.

40. Goldy spews:

Goldy @33,

On second thought, let me refine my statement: “We are all privileged to live in a nation that recognizes our right to vote.

41. rightwingbob spews:

Goldy @ 37
You say that you have expressed empathy for Rossi supporters in the past, my apologies I am new to this forum and did not see your previous posts .I do realize that this is in the hand of lawyers now and will most likely not change the outcome, however this subject should be kept alive so that we never have any doubt about future elections. I feel both sides should have significant doubts not only about this elections but previous close elections.
I think that the Republicans should continue the fight in court to remove the doubts that many of us have concerning this election and to prevent any of us from going through this type of election in the future.
The polls say that most Washingtonians would favor a re-vote and this shows that there is a lot of doubt about the legitimacy of our current governor

42. carla spews:

cricket @ 22:

I looked briefly through the study you linked to…and I could only find voter REGISTRATION and disenfranchisement discussion…not an actual voting pattern by felons. Perhaps I missed the part of the study where the author has how the individuals actually voted. If so..please provide some direction.

As you may or may not be aware, the State of Florida has many more registered Democrats than Republicans. Yet Bush has won Florida twice in a row.

The idea that felons live in King County or are registered Democrats is congruent to them voting for Gregiore makes no sense and I don’t see how it could be admissable in court. I think the only way Rossi can attempt to wrestle this felons issue is by affadavit or putting these people on the stand (or both).

Rossi and Mary Lane have painted themselves into a corner. They’re relying solely on the felon vote issue for their contest. And they’re complaining loudly that we can trust felons to tell the truth so we can’t really know how they voted. But Rossi MUST PROVE that they voted for Gregiore in sufficient numbers as to tip the balance away from him and to her.

It’s a catch-22.

43. torridjoe spews:

JCH–
PERS is not a replacement for SS, it is an augmentation.

44. Don spews:

zap @ 1

Oh c’mon zap, he was in a high-class slammer.

45. jcricket spews:

Carla – I’m on your side here, trust me :)

And I agree that Florida’s felon disenfranchisement laws are a complete debacle. They continue to use a list that they know is incorrect, for purely partisan politics.

But no one has the guts to stand up nationally and argue that it’s time to end the disenfranchisement “shell game”.

46. Don spews:

Goldy @ 13

We’ve tried engaging, persuading, and reforming but that hasn’t worked so let’s abuse them! Show ‘em HA is a rough neighborhood full of liberal toughs! :-)

47. Don spews:

rightwingbob @ 14

If, despite the fact Rossi lost by more than 129 votes, as will become clear when we find out who the felons voted for, somehow a revote is ordered (by reason of judicial insanity or whatever) and Gregoire loses by 50 or 100 votes, it will be obvious that Rossi won because of illegal votes and equally obvious the revote should be set aside.

48. rightwingbob spews:

Don @ 47
so you don’t want discussion , it is your way or the highway . Sounds like Goldy is willing to discuss the issues as for you there is no discussion . Oh well

49. Don spews:

rwb @ 21

“You should speak English and basic understanding of how government works.”

Have you thought this through, Bob? This requirement would eliminate virtually all wingnuts from the voter rolls.

50. Don spews:

wingbob @ 49

You ARE new here, aren’t you?

51. rightwingbob spews:

Don @ 48
I don’t believe that there will be a revote; I believe that lawyers for both sides will continue to drag this out. I do believe that this election and possibly others before were flawed and both republicans as well as democrats should be very disappointed with the status quo and possibly the outcome of the court proceedings will open the eyes of all to get educated on the voting process.
I read an article right after the first recount and do not remember the specifics, but the jest of the article was that so many people voted for Ron Sims who was not even on the ballot would have voted for Gregoire she would have won with out this mess.

52. rightwingbob spews:

Don @ 51
yes

53. christmasghost spews:

Political prisoners??????? Oh, that is TOO funny, really……..
What ,it was politically incorrect to beat a woman half to death…is that what he means by political prisoners?

54. carla spews:

Jcricket @ 46

I too believe it’s a shell game.

Of course…this whole contest is looking like one big shell game.

55. chardonnay spews:

Democrats finally have an original thought “felons voting rights restored” and now they are so proud. This is their baby and boy are they running with it. The current law you say is barbaric, but, are we to do nothing to deter capitol crimes & such? It seems to me if the the Liberal Democrats had their way, we would have no prisons and pedophiles would be free to be teachers.
Could you liberals ever have a “BIG BANG” that is sensible, rational or methodical? Your laundry list is just destroying your party as a whole.

56. chardonnay spews:

Carla obviously is not aware of the huge list of insignificant irregularities that the WSRP has as evidence. Lets hope for Gregoire sake, that Jenny Durkin is on top of things. It would really suck if they lost this case without the expertise offered here.
and don, calm down, you really should be a wee bit more tolerant. just because someone has a different view of life and/or politics is no reason to get your blood pressure up. Allow yourself to have a little sense of humor, like the name of this site…horsespitooty! OH, unless I am wrong, is the name meant to be of angry nature? as in you horsesass?

57. JCH spews:

Chardonnay……Your posts rate an “A plus”, but could you save “Guvment Hack Don” for me? Thanks in advance, JCH

58. chardonnay spews:

JCH, it’s just so easy, especially when he says stuff like “contractors & paving Co’s at the trough” to expose his true colors that business is the problem and we need his and other govn’t workers to parent us. It’s obvious someone needs to parent the liberals lack of judgement.
But ok, he’s all yours.

59. carla spews:

chardonnay @ 56/57

If a felon has served their time and had their rights restored…why wouldn’t that be something to be proud of? Or are you of the opinion that a person who’s paid their debt to society should be punished indefinitely? Is it further your contention that forever losing the right to vote is somehow a deterrance to committing a felony? Like somehow just before someone pulls a trigger that somehow they’ll stop and think, “Whoa…better not do this or I’ll never get to vote again”? LOL please.

And then to leap from this to no prisons and pedophiles run amok….what a joke.

And while you’re at it…what “huge list” of irregularities are you referring? The “huge list” of dead voters..that turned out to be a handful of people that accidentally mailed in the wrong ballot or signed on the wrong line? Or the red herring of ballot/voter reconciliation? Or are you going to keep harping on the felon votes that Rossi didn’t seem to be bothered with when he entered this contest?

Please…humor us all with your enlightened elitist rantings some more.

60. Don spews:

bob @ 50

“I believe that lawyers for both sides will continue to drag this out.”

Where did you get this notion? The Republicans wanted to speed up the trial process and get an early decision. The Democrats obviously don’t want a rush to judgment, and want adequate time to conduct discovery and evaluate the evidence, but they also want a prompt resolution of the election contest issue in order to remove the cloud over Gregoire’s legitimacy. The lawyers on both sides have no reason to drag this out, and plenty of reasons not to, but this isn’t a traffic case that can be handled in a 20-minute hearing.

“I do believe that this election and possibly others before were flawed and both republicans as well as democrats should be very disappointed with the status quo and possibly the outcome of the court proceedings will open the eyes of all to get educated on the voting process.”

There’s probably no statewide election involving a couple million or more voters that isn’t flawed in some way. Miscounts, election worker errors, poll workers not following correct procedures, voting machine breakdowns, etc. I think we’ve all learned from the controversy over this election that the system isn’t perfect and improvements could be made, but I think you’ll find those are incremental improvements and perfection isn’t attainable. Not, at least, without vastly increased expenditures of already tight taxpayer funds. As a practical matter, we will always have to accept a certain amount of imperfection in the election process, just as we do in virtually all other areas of our lives. This is not a perfect world.

“I read an article right after the first recount and do not remember the specifics, but the jest of the article was that so many people voted for Ron Sims who was not even on the ballot would have voted for Gregoire she would have won with out this mess.”

This is true. Gregoire didn’t do enough to repair her relations with the black community and with Sims’ liberal supporters, and many of them wrote in Sims’ name on the November ballot, as was evident to the counters and observers during the recounts. Greogire lost several thousand votes this way.

61. chardonnay spews:

First of all carla, the criminal(as in, lets say, T. Kennedy) that commits the crime of, lets say murder, took another man/womans life. If we use Kennedy as an example did he think….. Whoa…better not do this or I’ll never get to be president”? It is about decisions that affect the community as a whole. LAWS! voting is about laws, break the laws, you dont vote. Are you advocating a murderer does his time and once released he should vote the next election?
A person who commits a crime that falls into the felony category doesn’t much care about the rights of others does he/she?
If you want to restore those voting rights allow a a period of time and “good behavior” to pass and classify it to only pertain to white collar crimes. NOT MURDER, NOT BANK ROBBERY, NOT PEDOPHILES.

if you are not aware of what the WSRP has as evidence go to their web site, even I cannot list ALL of it. And there are so many different types of screw ups, this as a whole is absolutely devastating especially to KC where the 2 top boys get paid plenty to do basic accounting. I say lets call the top CPA firm in seattle to audit them and use that as testimony. Dems would never go for it would they?

62. torridjoe spews:

chardonnay–what screwups are you attributing to KC? It can’t be felons; that’s the state’s fault, not the counties’. It can’t be dead voters; that’s the Dept of Public Health’s fault, not the counties’. It can’t be the 1,800 voter-credit gap; they’re neither required to do that analysis, or do anything about a gap. It can’t be the enhanced ballots; KC is required to do that by law.

63. JCH spews:

“There’s probably no statewide election involving a couple million or more voters that isn’t flawed in some way.” Don, that’s utter BS. Quit making excuses for felonies. I thought you were a lawyer, not a suck up shill for Democrats. Find the cheaters, arrest then, convict them, fine them, jail them. Oh yeah, Hillary wants convicted felons to vote. Gee, Don, I wonder why? [Hillary: just another Pig [in a pantssuit] at the “guvmnent” trough. Like Don.]

64. Don spews:

JCH @ 58 and char @ 59

I like it better when you Pukes gang up on me. Get zip and cynical in on this, too. 4-to-1, hmmm, if you can find about a dozen more guys it might be a fair fight.

65. Don spews:

char @ 62

“LAWS! voting is about laws, break the laws, you dont vote. … A person who commits a crime that falls into the felony category doesn’t much care about the rights of others does he/she?”

Of course, Republicans don’t apply this reasoning to corporate crime. Let’s not forget this is America, where wealth is worshipped regardless of how the wealthy got it, and the more you steal the less time you do.

66. Don spews:

JCH @ 64

Do you actually expect anyone (besides yourself and your wingnut fellow trolls) to believe Washington State’s elections were perfect until Dean Logan and Christine Gregoire came along, then took a nosedive? HEE HAW HAW HAR HAR HA HA HA HA HA HOO HOO HA HA HAR HAR HAR :-D

67. jpgee spews:

chardonnay @ 56 If you and your trollbrothers think that voting rights is in the mind of potential criminals you are mentally disturbed. most of them could care less about voting. chances are the only ones it would matter to are the repug business upper echelon……

68. chardonnay spews:

jpgee, what exactly is in the minds of “potential” criminals? It sure isn’t the LAW! Why do we have laws? Lets ask Don. Don, why do we have laws?
Oh and Don, speaking of SS reform (JCH @ 43) what kind of pension plan do you have as a govn’t worker? Similar to the TSP that all Federal workers have like Patty Murray? I say take that away from you and make you have the exact same plan as the rest of us. Hmmmmmm. And term limits for all govn’t workers, keep it honest that way. One more thing, we should make a new Law along with term limits, every elected official should have to have been a business owner at one time or another. Just what do you think keeps the economy strong DON? (i know the answer, just want to see if you do). LOL

69. carla spews:

chardonnay @ 62:

In my opinion, if an individual has served his or her sentence and paid the requisite restitution, they should have their rights as a citizen restored. What possible good does it serve society to keep them from having their right to vote?

Whether or not a person “cares” about the rights of others isn’t the issue. Dr. James Dobson doesn’t care about the rights of gays to marry (see also “pursuit of happiness”)…but we’re not advocating for taking his vote away.

Either way…your point has little to do with whether or not it’s the responsibility of the counties to make sure no felon without their rights restored votes. It isn’t…that’s the legislature’s job. So I’ll ask again…if Rossi was so concerned about felons voting…why wasn’t Rossi lobbying the legislature on this before he filed for the governor’s race? He joined the race…fully knowing the rules (and if he didn’t…then that’s his own fault).

Chardonnay…you claim WSRP has a big list of election screwups. Too many for you to list here. Tell ya what…list 10 of them. I’d like to see them.

70. marks spews:

carla @ 70

In my opinion, if an individual has served his or her sentence and paid the requisite restitution, they should have their rights as a citizen restored.

I agree, but add that parole must be served. I think that applying $$ restitution that the felon can’t pay is not grounds for witholding suffrage restoration, as well.

71. zapporo spews:

jpgee @2, goldy @13 and Don @45 and 47 — Was my point valid? Think of it this way – Substance is great, but when your form is so sorely lacking, it makes it so much easier to convert people to conservatism. Perhaps you could do a weekly drug dealer prison expose? Add some graphics to your site and hookers and strippers suddenly become a very viable topic. Perhaps Don could do a piece on man-boy relationships? Now you’re really winning people over. And this post is what people praise you for? How damn sophomoric.

72. Goldy spews:

Zapporo @72

People praise me? Prove it. (Then forward the proof to my mother… it will make her so proud.)

As to the post being “sophomoric”… you’ve got to learn the difference between being serious and being solemn.

73. carla spews:

Who knew Republicans were so shallow? Form is more crucial than substance?

No wonder they’re so devoted to W.

74. Mr. Cynical spews:

So…what mystery’s of the universe have the Lefty’s solved today? Have any of you pukes actually seen any of the evidence? NOOOOO! And why???

I guarantee you pukes that there will be plenty of twists & turns & surprises….anybody doubt that?

Have all of you completely forgotten about the BIG BOX (gee Goldy…Berendt should have known enough to put them in one of your BIG BINDERS!) of affadavits Comrade Paul brought in and attested that they were 100% legitimate? Berendt took personal responsibility for all these affadavits. Have any of you Lefty’s taken a look at these??

Goldy…for months I have encouraged you to roll up your sleeves and create so hard evidence or something to disprove the Republican allegations that you know about. Instead, you waste all your time being amateur lawyers….enthralled with BIG BINDERS!!! Oh well…believe that the Dems have no need to offer any hard evidence…rather pray that is the case.

75. dumdum spews:

ok lets see all the evidence.

76. Jpgee spews:

Mr Idiot @ 75 I guess we should all thank you grandpa…..you are calling us my your family name now….PUKEs. It’s nice to know that we are related to you…LMAO@U as ALWAYS

77. Mrs. Cynical spews:

Mr. Cynical,
Get your lame little binder off the computer, and get up here and fix my dinner. Or, I’m gonna introduce your little binder to my sewing shears!

Mrs. Cynical

78. dumdum spews:

I see nothing on the wsrp site listed as far as proof of election fraud. Is it hidden somewhere. i see where they are making accusations, but that is all. nothing new there. republicans and accusations, go together like water and ducks.
If this proves to be nothing more than allegations, i think the republican party should be billed for every dime spent.
let them collect it from dino.

79. angry voter spews:

Recently, 73 felons who in Pierce County were removed from the registration roles. The prosecutor said they all voted. All of this is easily found here;

73 voter registrations voided
AARON CORVIN AND ADAM LYNN; The News Tribune
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/government/story/4611458p-4284826c.html

80. Don spews:

shit-for-brains @ 69

As I have previously posted on this web site, every cent of my pension checks is money that was withheld from my paychecks, I’m not even into the interest yet, and it will be years before I see a dime of employer contribution. But I don’t expect you to know that, because you can’t read, can you?

81. Don spews:

zap @ 72

If you expect me to be nice, you’re talking to the wrong guy. I don’t do nice. I learned how to be a prick from wingers. How does a dose of your own medicine taste?

82. Don spews:

Carla @ 74

“Who knew Republicans were so shallow? Form is more crucial than substance?”

I’ve always known that. I’ve been around these scum all my life; I grew up in a right-wing town, and my ex-business partner was a winger — not what I would call honest or truthful, but definitely a holier-than-thou, superficial, all-about-appearances guy of the sort who think that putting on airs and pretending to be respectable somehow makes you respectable.

83. Don spews:

char @ 69

For an example of a term limits liar, look no farther than your very own GOP Senate candidate George Nethercutt.

84. dumdum spews:

ceo bonuses rise 46% as workers lose benefits and wages shrink.
tire workers at wal mart in co. voting on union representation today.

85. dumdum spews:

angry voter
if its so easy to find these people lets ask them who they voted for.
maybe gregoire has a mandate yet.

86. torridjoe spews:

AV @ 80
there’s nothing about the prosecutor saying they all voted. That is one wacked article. It says they all apparently voted, then it says the county officials didn’t check, then a county official says they did based on their review, then another official says four of them living in a particular area didn’t vote.

WTF?

I see Mary Lane’s still pushing the “more errors than the margin” theory of contest. I wonder when she’ll get a sitdown with lawyers on the actual facts of the law?

87. swatter spews:

Don, help me here. You toss around the word “wingers”. Is it anyone who disagrees with you? Is it the fringe elements on both sides of the political spectrum? Or only one side?

I suppose you could call me a “winger”, too since your poltical bent is to the left and I try to bring you back to reason in the center. So, I could be called a “center winger”?

88. Don spews:

swatter @ 88

You’re a centrist like I’m Mother Goose. I thought everybody, even ignorant righties, knew that a “winger” is a “wingnut” a.k.a. right wing nut. No, the term doesn’t refer to left wing nuts, or anybody else referred to by people of your ilk as “commies,” “socialists,” “traitors,” etc. etc. ad naus. It also doesn’t refer to real conservatives, or real Republicans. Only to the subhumanoid species of neo-Republican faux-conservative creature with jutting jaws, sloping foreheads, squinty little beady eyes, and knuckles dragging on the ground that passes for a Republican these days.

89. Don spews:

Oh, I forgot to mention, “wingers” are easy to recognize because they go around saying “ookle” and display a fondness for bananas.

90. Don spews:

hey what happened to my first post?

91. Don spews:

hmmmm … it must’ve been snagged by Goldy’s spam filter because I said something bad about “wingers” … :-D

92. thehim spews:

My point before was somewhat poorly made, but the point I was trying to make in pointing out the particular voter angry about his DUI is that the demographics of who is voting Republican vs. who is voting Democrat today is considerably different than it was in 2000. The Democrats have become the supposed party of the elites whereas the Republicans have reclaimed the blue-collar vote. I really hope they figure out exactly which votes were cast illegally by felons and count them. I wouldn’t even be remotely surprised if Rossi got more votes than Gregoire among them.

93. Mr. Cynical spews:

Don @ 81–
You claim every cent of your PERS1 retirement is money withheld from your check??????
What about the State of Washington contribution Don???????????
You are a complete liar…..whacked out, over the top Left wingnut. You know darn well the State also contributed to your retirement fund in addition to what was withheld. The biggest rip-off of all is that you get your monthly pension computed as a whopping 60% OF THE AVERAGE OF YOUR HIGHEST 24 CONSECUTIVE MONTHS. You shameless Lefty’s have run this State for 20 years and consistently RIPPED OFF the taxpayers by getting these last 2 year “promotions” with huge salary increases so your base is inflated. Left wing-nut incest it’s called.
Don, you had 30 years to sit at your metal desk and rationalize how you were worth much more than you were paid. You’ve admitted you made no difference and it was all about the SALARY and PENSION. Did you know all these “PENSIONS” as subject to public record requests??
Some of the “loyalty rewards” LEFTY’s have manufactured at taxpayer expense is unbeleivable. I have personally seen the computation of 1 LEFTY who was named “County Administrator” the last 2 years of his 30 @ $85,000+. His highest salary previously was $60,000 as a planner. He received 60% X $25,000/yr. ===$15,000+/yr. EXTRA PENSION for being an unqualified County Administrator for his last 2 years of so-called Guv’ment service…gift of his Lefty brethren…he is 53 years old. NICE??? Pathetic, scandalous rip-off and you know it Don. Are you part of the rip-off club Don?????

The State should PUBLISH all the current pensioners and pension computations. They ARE public records.

94. torridjoe spews:

Cynical–what’s wrong with government pensions, again? Do you have some sort of philosophical problem with retirement benefits?

95. Mr. Cynical spews:

tj–
My only problem is that loopholes have allowed “creative planning”–(code word for screwing the public) like my example.
Look at how many retired Legislators have gotten short-term “appointments” that result in this onerous BS.
tj–are you a government employee?????????????

96. torridjoe spews:

cynical–what evidence do you offer that the promotions were not legitimate?

97. Mr. Cynical spews:

tj–
I gave you one example at a County level.
Just take a look at the “highest consecutive 24 month” periods on some of the pensions tj.
If it smells like bullshit…it is bullshit.
This is what happens when one Party (either way) controls the Governors office for 20 years.

Are you a government employee tj…YES or NO??

98. Don spews:

Cynical @ 94 says, “You claim every cent of your PERS1 retirement is money withheld from your check??????” I’ve been told that if you repeat something often enough, even an idiot eventually will understand what you said, so here goes the old college try: Yes.

Then Cynical says, “You know darn well the State also contributed to your retirement fund in addition to what was withheld.” Of course they did, I never said they didn’t, did I? As previously explained, I have to go through all of my accumulated contributions and interest thereon before I get any state money, and if I don’t live long enough to do that, I don’t get any of the state contribution.

To further compound his misstatements and inaccuracies, Cynical then haughtily pontificates, “The biggest rip-off of all is that you get your monthly pension computed as a whopping 60% OF THE AVERAGE OF YOUR HIGHEST 24 CONSECUTIVE MONTHS. You shameless Lefty’s have run this State for 20 years …. ” Ummm, no, for 20 years you’d get only 40 percent, and nothing until you’re 60, and only if you were hired before 1977. It’s true my pension is based on my 24 highest consecutive months, which in my case is what I earned 7 years before I retired. My personal finances are none of your business, but just to give you a general frame of reference, an attorney employed by a state agency can expect to eventually make about $50,000 a year and retire on a pension in the range of $20,000 to $30,000 a year if he works for the state for over 20 years and does not elect a spousal survivor benefit or COLAs, either of which reduces your monthly pension benefit by around $1,000 a month. You also have to purchase your own health insurance, which for PERS retirees, currently costs around $900 a month for a couple if you include dental. So you might have $1200 a month for both of you to live on after taxes and paying for your health insurance. Caseworkers, who are paid less than attorneys, do not retire quite so lavishly.

99. Don spews:

Cynical Idiot @ 94 (continued)

“Are you part of the rip-off club Don?????”

No, I was just a flunky with no connections, and even the crumbs didn’t make it down to my level.

100. Don spews:

Cynical @ 94

“The State should PUBLISH all the current pensioners and pension computations. They ARE public records.”

Your Form 1040 is a public record too, but that doesn’t mean any Tom, Dick, or Harry can look at it. RCW 42.17.310(1)(b) exempts personal records of state employees from public disclosure, so you’re SOL on this one. However, salaries of current state employees are disclosable and in fact are on-line.

101. Don spews:

Cyn @ 96

There’s no question that if you’ve served in the Legislature for 20 years (low pay, long hours, lots of bullshit) and can get a friendly governor to appoint you as an agency head for a few years, you will get a big boost in your otherwise measly legislative pension. How many people does this apply to? So few that your making an issue of it is laughable. The 100,000+ state workers who daily toil for low pay, long hours, and put up with a ton of bullshit from the public (i.e., people like you) are so far removed from the pension perks you so vociferously decry that they may as well dream of walking on the moon. Same applies to teachers, cops, firefighters, and the guys who work through the night plowing snow in Snoqualmie Pass so you can drive your sorry ass to the red part of the state.

102. Chee spews:

Now let me rack my brain…who was it that said people were basically honest or born to be so? Humans dislike admitting that mankind or womankind are killer apes bound only by social restrictions. Fit in the suppressive religious concepts of brain-washing and you arrive as to why we have snit-fits playing the game of be nice. We are the snively mass. Learning how best to govern self is a small mico chip of the bigger picture. We, the people are the government; part of the solution or part of the problem.

103. Mr. Cynical spews:

Don–
Cry me a river……
I do not feel sorry for “public servants”…..except those that really want to make a difference and are beat down by the State Employees Union.
How unbelievable that Gary Moore, Formerly of the State Employees Union is now the chief Labor negotiator for the State.
Doesn’t that give taxpayers a warm and fuzzy feeling all over.
Our Labor negotiator negotiating with his prior employer!!
GREAT!