by Goldy, 12/22/2005, 12:13 PM

Freshman Republican Rep. Dave Reichert (WA-8) has tried to carve a reputation for himself as a strong and independent leader by strategically casting a handful of well placed votes in opposition to the GOP leadership… mostly when it doesn’t count. But his role in the recent controversy over oil drilling in the pristine Alaska National Wildlife Refuge shows exactly how calculated and unprincipled these votes have been.

After making a big show earlier this year of opposing drilling in ANWR, Reichert rolled over when it really mattered, voting for the Defense Spending bill and its cynical provision without a peep of opposition. Meanwhile, Sen. Maria Cantwell staked her reputation — and perhaps her career — on threatening a filibuster… and successfully following through.

Cantwell deserves all the credit she’s getting for staring down Alaska’s powerful and vindictive Sen. Ted Stevens.

“This vote today is a tribute to her tenacity and skill,” said Jim Manley, a spokesman for Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev. “She stood up to a powerful member of the Senate. Today was a big win.”

Reid made Cantwell the Senate Democrats’ energy point-person in September, setting into motion Wednesday’s confrontation.

But as much credit as Cantwell deserves for her bold leadership in orchestrating this dramatic filibuster, Reichert deserves at least as much blame for weakly caving in to his party’s cynical parliamentary procedure. He cannot argue that nothing could be done to block the provision — something could be done, and Cantwell did it. The difference is, Cantwell really is a defender of the environment, whereas Reichert only gives it lip service.

In defending his previous stance, Reichert explained that phone calls and emails from constituents were overwhelmingly opposed to drilling in ANWR:

“They were running about 95 percent in favor of not drilling. You have to listen to the people you represent.”

But when push came to shove, it wasn’t “the people” he listened to.

Reichert’s district has been steadily trending Democrat, putting him on everybody’s short list of vulnerable Republicans… and I can’t wait for this issue to pop up during the 2006 campaign. What’s he going to tell the overwhelming majority of constituents who oppose drilling in ANWR? “I voted against drilling before I voted for it”…?

Reichert flip-flopped on ANWR, and he’s going to pay for it.

[Cross-posted to Daily Kos.]

184 Responses to “Reichert flip-flops on ANWR drilling”

1. Mount Olympus Hiker spews:

We’ll make sure he pays for it – you can bet on that.

http://www.darcyburner.com

2. Mark The Redneck spews:

One Term Reichert is a textbook example of how stupid it is to be a “moderate”. He should take principled stands and defend them when the kooks challenge. Instead, he tries to appease the enemy hoping that maybe a few of them might like him. As seen here, that’s not gonna happen. I’ll vote for him, but my support is lukewarm at best.

3. GBS spews:

Mark The Yellowneck Dick

I see you have several rake bruises on your face. Wanna explain how McDermott breached the 4th amendment again?

Reichert Waffles are being served at IHOP!

4. Mark The Redneck spews:

GBS – I’m still laughing. Say it again… am I “chilling”? Am I “morally repugnant”? Are we headed toward a “police state”.

Moron.

5. Rick spews:

Maria will get all the credit she deserves. I sure labor unions will jump on her bandwagon now that she has killed off the new longshore, skilled trade and other associated jobs that would have been created by responsibly developing ANWR. She probably even eliminated at least 1000 govermental environmental positions that doubtless would have been created – and those are good liberal public sector jobs!!!!!!!!!!

6. jaybo spews:

Actually Goldy, I can’t wait for it to show up as a campaign issue as well.

I do not believe that when the debate is framed in terms of national security and price stability that there will be as much resistance to drilling in ANWAR.

7. For the Clueless spews:

The wingnuts should be ok with the Republican moderates.

The moderates play in concert with the “catch and release” program of the Hastert-DeLay crowd. When the R’s have enough votes to prevail on an issue or bill in Congress (the “catch”) then they “release” their moderates to vote against their party.

Then the moderates can assert their independence with their moderate constituents at home and get reelected. It’s a con job!

The R’s continually push and pass unpopular legislation. They’ve cut taxes on the rich every year since 2000. Their latest absurdity was to cut 50 billion of funding for food stamps, medicare, student loans, etc. for “deficit reduction” – and then pass 90 billion of tax cuts for the rich!

They get away with it with forms of “backlash insurance” like “catch and release”.

8. mesa spews:

He was damned if he did…and damned if he didn’t

If there never is any further drilling in ANWR he may be forgiven (or it will be but one of many reasons for booting him)

As a PUB he couldn’t go on record as voting agin defense
Goin agin Stevens he may lose many perceived future opportunities (committee appts, support for any bills he may spons)..We all have our own delusions

Especially as a frosh it’s that balance party/constituents/personal views thing…with the order a little fuzzy depending on the issue..but WTF do I know?

9. Mark The Redneck spews:

Uh… clueless. They cut taxes for the “rich” because we’re the ones who pay. Bottom half already getting free ride. Duh..

10. LEFT is RIGHT spews:

flippity……

……..floppity

11. Tree Frog Farmer spews:

Not to be forgotten is Reichert’s role,along with Sue Rahr, in fostering the festering stink of crooked and corrupt deputies still on the payrolls ofthe KINGCO Sherrif’office. This sort of fecklessness should follow him and dog him for the rest of his political career.

12. Left Turn spews:

That fruitcake punk Teddy Stevens threatens to come to every state to tell voters how the ANWR drilling was defeated by Senator Cantwell. Well I say come on down Teddy. You can spend the night with your pal Jimmy West at Log Cabin Republican HQ and then effectively assure that Reichert is NOT re-elected while Maria wins by 16 points!

13. GBS spews:

Mark The Yellowneck Dick

Well you’ve proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you deserve the moniker of Yellowneck because you truly are a pitiful coward.

OK, ass wipe, that’s all for you now, buh-bye.

Loser.

14. For the Clueless spews:

Redneck – as it’s been stated many times by many people – you’re so full of shit it’s pathetic. The poor pay all kinds of taxes. They pay sales taxes, property taxes through their rent, all the taxes passed on to the consumer by businesses and utilities. They don’t pay much if any in federal taxes because if they did they be even poorer. In this state, the poor pay a larger share of their income in taxes than the rich do. It’s a fact and it’s a damn shame because the promise of this country is that everyone has a shot at getting to the middle class and even farther if they’re lucky.

And then when a poor family gets to the middle class – they get to pay federal taxes too.

Redneck you make a big deal about what a rich oppressed guy you are living in a nice house and driving a luxury SUV. Fuck you! Yes pay more federal taxes to save your sorry ass from the terrorists and fund the pork barrel spending of your favorite politicians – you should because have more to lose and you have more to gain from your Republican friends feeding like hogs at the public trough.

15. Mark The Redneck spews:

GBS – In the future, watch carefully for rakes on the ground.

16. Mark The Redneck spews:

Clueless – According to GBS I’m also “morally repugnant” and “chilling”. So be sure to include those too when you throw around epithets.

The poooooor pay nowhere near their fair share while consuming an inordinate share of government services. I’m not saying we should screw them or keep them down, but certainly they should ante up at least a token amount.

And you think I should pay high taxes to be punished? For what? For being successful? Why does it bother you that some people are successful? Because it reminds you what a miserable failure your life is?

17. Larry the Urbanite spews:

Jaybo @ 6: Back for more punishment I see. Well, you said

“I do not believe that when the debate is framed in terms of national security and price stability that there will be as much resistance to drilling in ANWAR.”

How does this affect national security? Oil dependancy is NOT going to be solved by either more drilling or making nice with the Middle East (at least not anymore, Bush II has closed that door). Add that to global warming and price gouging by the oil companies, and all of a sudden you have an active, concerned population who all want environmental protections, lessing of our dependence on oil, modern technologies, higher CAFE standards, etc. Oil is a limited resourse and, after Iraq, Americans are not going to be willing to die for it.

Finally, “price stability” my ass. Drilling for oil is a give away to the oil companies. They do not have to limit thier prices, and will probably claim the cost of researching and developing the ANWR will drive the cost of oil UP!.

Idiot

18. Larry the Urbanite spews:

oh and another thing: This debate HAS ALREADY BEEN framed in terms of National Security….the provision to drill ANWR was attached to the defense spending bill, wasn’t it? And people had the guts to call it the cynical, blinders-on-full-dark-about-the-environment by the republicans.

Try to have something sensical to say when you write in.

19. GBS spews:

Mark The Yellowneck Dick:

Oh, OK, buddy, thanks for the tip. I’ll be sure to watch for the rake traps you set. You’re so sneaky.

You’ve really imprssed me with your debating skills. In fact, you’re a master-debater.

OK, like I said, run along and check your mailbox. I bet your welfare check should be coming soon.

See ya, you parasite on society.

20. Roger Rabbit spews:

“They were running about 95 percent in favor of not drilling. You have to listen to the people you represent.”

Hmmm … well, 5% of them, anyway. But then, when did ant Republican ever believe in majority rule?

21. Roger Rabbit spews:

Hmmm … that should have been “any,” but “ant” works well in this context, too.

22. Roger Rabbit spews:

9

“Bottom half already getting free ride. Duh..”

Uh-huh. Middle class pays 35% to 40% of total income in total tax burden … free ride … sure pal …

23. Larry the Urbanite spews:

Mark TRN @16: Good God man, do you really not see why the rich should pay more? It has nothing to do with being successful, it’s with having “enough”. Avarice is one of the seven deadly sins. When you have “enough” (and whatever level you want to set that at is fine, but I’d say at least the top 1% or 2% (economically) of society have enough, wouldn’t you?), it’s time to give some back. Look at the Gates’s, richer than God and giving it away as fast as he reasonably can (see the recent New Yorker article about his efforts to combat disease.) Why “give back”? Because they and you didn’t make it where you are in a vacuum. You had public health programs that stopped you from getting polio as a child, good roads to transport goods and services, police to make sure your business isn’t robbed, a military to make sure we weren’t invaded, etc. All that had nothing to do with you personally, but with the system that this country embodies.

Oh never mind, go find a rake to step on.

24. Roger Rabbit spews:

16

Mark — how do people who can’t even afford rent or food “ante up?”

And — while we’re on this subject — how many pennies are ultimately added to the cost of a can of beans by middlemen like you who push beans in endless circles so you can skim another fraction of a penny off the top every time it goes in another circle? What does a commodities trader “produce” besides higher prices for everyone else? Leech.

25. Roger Rabbit spews:

6

Jaybo — you want national security, then make U.S. companies (especially oil companies) answerable to our government. Right now, they act like independent governments, answering to no one.

26. JCH spews:

The solution: Democrats should refuse to use gasoline, heating oil, and natural gas. No SUVs, private aircraft, private watercraft, and NO burning coal or wood. This will solve the problem of “global warming”!!

27. Winston Smith spews:

re : The only frame you guys can put on a debate is one that involves peoples’ fears or petty prejudice. That shoul be your Republican slogan: “We cater to your fears and prejudice , but all our actions are to primp and massage the pleasure tool of BIG BUSINESS!”

28. GBS spews:

@ 14

The biggest problem is that you take Mark The Yellowneck Dick at his word. Which means you have to put it in perspective considering the source.

While MTYD claims to drive a luxury SUV you have to ask yourself; what is a luxury SUV to a redneck? Well, that’s ’72 Ford pick up with a 6″ lift kit, huge mud tires, blue ball hanging off the trailer hitch, a confederate flag on the tailgate, a gun rack in rear widow, and spray painted in camouflage colors with “Git-R-Done” & “Bush / Cheney” bumper stickers.

See? Not quite the Escalade you were led to believe.

A luxury home on the East side? Hell, living in a 1986 double-wide trailer near Woodinville with 6 “huntin’ dogs” and a ”79 Pontiac Trans Am on cinder blocks and trash strewn all over the place is his idea of a luxury home.

A beautiful wife? Yep, his sister has not one, but two teeth in her head, hair died platinum blonde, black eye brows, dark blue eye shadow caked on her eyes with a cigarette hanging from her lip and 425 pounds later with 12 children, none of which are clean or educated passed the 3rd grade. Just like their daddy/big brother.

You gotta keep it all in perspective. You know he doesn’t pay taxes, he just believes all the crap Limbaugh, O’Reilly, and Hannity keep brainwashing him with.

Peace out!

29. Robert spews:

GBS

Thanks – I needed a good laugh. Reminded me of the gold old days when “Almost Live” kept up all the good Woodinville/Lynnwood/Renton stereotypes alive.

Cheers.

30. JDB spews:

As much as I hate to do this:

In defense of Reichert, Norm Dicks reversed his vote also. The comparison to the Senate isn’t helpful either. The minority has power in the Senate, not in the House. Lets face it, compared to most Republicans in this state, Reichert is not that bad. Of course, this is why the party will turn on him (remember, he dared to state that the whole Schivo thing was an abuse of power).

GBS:

Maybe we should just call him Mark the Yellowdick? It makes a lot of sense when you think of it.

31. Larry the Urbanite spews:

Well, if Mark the Redneck really isn’t “rich”, say top 5%, then he’s really stupid, cuz the republicans are all about helping those people only. I never understood the “NASCAR” republican thing, unless u are a Bible thumper. I mean, how bright do you have to be to figure out that people who promote/protect corporations are NOT on your side? Ever heard about “the Man”? These guys are it/him, and they are looking to stick it to ya’.

32. Janet S spews:

Maria is once again doing the bidding of leadership. National stories on this never make mention of her name. Only the local media show her roll as being the one who had to keep talking.

In other words, she is a shill. She will do whatever she is told to do, and she is being told to get her face in the paper as much as possible so she can get reelected.

Goldy – that’s funny – she risked her job by doing this? Are you kidding? This state will reward her for such antics, and she knows it!

33. Mr Potato Head spews:

Git-R-Done!

34. ConservativeFirst spews:

So Reichart voted against drilling in ANWR before he voted for it. He must be taking political advice from John Kerry.

35. For the Clueless spews:

16 – what did I just say? The poor pay plenty of taxes and I forgot to mention they make up a huge share of the military. Not only do they “ante up” in money terms – they ante up their lives after getting to the other end of high school and finding no jobs unless it’s a Republican war of choice.

The perfect Republican social program – a “pre-emptive” meat-grinder – at the end the poor soldier comes home in a body bag or a wheel chair – no competition for the 5 percent who get the lion’s share of Dubya’s tax cuts.

36. GBS spews:

Robert @ 29

“Amost Live” was the best, always laughed my ass off.

JDB @ 30
So be it: it is decreed that from this day forward he shall be known as Mark The Yellowdick

You know you’re a redneck conservative when need a program to sort out who’s who at a family reunion.

Do you know how they separate the men from the boys at a redneck/conservative family reunion? With a crowbar!

37. For the Clueless spews:

GBS @ 28

Too funny! Thanks!

38. Mark The Redneck spews:

Urbanite @ 23 – Your comments illustrates one of 2 of most bizzare aspects of the disease of liberalism; the fundamental misunderstanding of how people get wealthy and what they should do once they have some wealth. Your comment about “giving back” and “enough” are the tipoffs.

First, the notion of “giving back” suggests that the wealth was somehow obtained by some unjust means. But that’s not how it works; first you do something productive, and if you do it consistently, your income and wealth rise in rough proportion to your societal contribution. For example, Gates did not get his money first and then decide to invent great software. He did the hard work first; he made his contributions, and then the money followed. That’s the honest way of making money. So to suggest that it’s then necessary to “give back” reveals that you really don’t understand that the “giving” has already been done in the form of the product or service that preceded the wealth.

Second, the notion of “enough” suggests that you’re really a closet “grouchoandharpoist”. Maybe you’ve lied to yourself that you’re not, but that’s what it is at its core after you strip away all the bullshit. Who the fuck are you or anybody else to decide how much is “enough” for me? If you do that, then should you also decide that I have “enough” education, or have produced “enough”, or worked “enough” hours, or have given “enough”. If you do it on one side of the equation, you have to do it on the other too.

39. windie spews:

or… you could be lying.

or being deliberatly dense again. Are you saying Gates doesn’t have enough money? Between his charity and the limitations on what his kids will inherit, it seems like he thinks he has *too much*

40. For the Clueless spews:

Redneck – let’s play a little game. Let’s say a fair rate of taxation (local, state, federal combined) for a rich guy is 33 percent in peacetime, 40 percent in wartime.

So let’s say you make a million dollars in a year. The goverment takes 400 hundred grand. Wow that’s a lot! How much are you left with? 600 hundred grand? Hmmm. I could live on that.

Now let’s take a guy with a minimum wage job, with moonlighting and overtime – lets say he makes 15 grand in a year. Are you for taking 6000 dollars away from him? Could he live on 9 grand? Why do you want to take so much from him so you don’t feel “punished”?

41. Iwood h82bu spews:

GBS @ 28

Wow, you give MTR much much too much credit.
Thanks for the best laugh of the day.

42. For the Clueless spews:

Redneck you and your rich asshole friends are like the rabbit says – freeloaders.

You don’t think you owe a dime to pay for the fancy military with the jets, jdams, tanks, etc. we have or the intelligence apparatus with the high tech computers or satellites or the hospital care for the Vets who come home missing arms and legs. All of which is supposed to safeguard your sorry butt and the economy that you reap benefits from.

You don’t think you should pay for kids to have a decent education so they have options in life other than hustling on the street, ending up in prison or being cannon fodder for Republican wars of choice.

You don’t want to help people have decent health care or insurance so they don’t end up in an emergency room costing the system even more – that’s ok with you as you don’t pay.

You don’t want to pay a dime for the roads you drive your luxury car on.

You’re like the insurance companies – they just don’t want to pay.

43. JDB spews:

Mark the Yellowdick:

Your post shows one of the saddest symptoms of the disease that is moonbat conservatism.

You seem to believe that people gain wealth immaculately; almost as if by magic. That if Bill Gates had been born and then left in Antartica with peguins, he still would have still become a billionare. His society, and the government of that society have nothing to do with it.

You see, that is why we have taxes. I won’t bore you with basic social theory, but there is a social contract between all members of a society. To those whom great things are given great responsibilities attach. Given that, no mater what you make, you are paying far less in taxes than in any other first world country, you should thank your lucky star that so little is asked of you.

Ignorance like yours does make me wonder: Why do conservatives like you move to a state which is well known for being liberal, and then grouse about that liberalism? After all, that liberalism is what has made this state as great as it is. Think about it, won’t you?

44. GBS spews:

Forgive me Father, for I am about to sin and agree with Mark The Yellowdick @ 37.

Sorry fellow libs, but MTYD has a point here. It isn’t anyone’s business what is “enough” or “too much” wealth. “Giving” or “giving back” is up to the person who has accumulated the wealth in deciding what to do with their money.

In terms of the government, it does not have the power to measure “enough,” only to determine how much you earned. Based on that the government taxes you on a sliding scale. Which is fair considering no individual could ever begin to accumulate wealth in this country without the foundation of public utilities, police, fire, military, schools, etc.

NOBODY, Dick.

There is a danger of inherited power through the transfer of wealth. Which is why the death tax makes so much sense. It was established as a way to prevent an aristocratic society.

That said, Mark The Yellowdick is still a poor, broke-dick, lying hillbilly who collects welfare checks. Again, put things in perspective here since MTYD is at the center of the conversation. In the back water criks and hollers of Woodinville, where MTYD hails from, $40 bucks a year is a lot of money. So with him makin’ it big time on the government dole, he’s rich and famous compared to his kin folk.

45. thehim spews:

Forget about state, JDB, this entire country’s wealth was based upon having the most robust infrastructure on earth, almost entirely paid for through tax dollars and then allowing the free market to make the most efficient use of it. But you can’t have the latter without the former. The clueless neocons are having this demonstrated for them in Iraq right now.

46. GBS spews:

@ 45

Your Iraq analysis clearly proves your point.

47. thehim spews:

MTR @ 38

First, the notion of “giving back” suggests that the wealth was somehow obtained by some unjust means. But that’s not how it works; first you do something productive, and if you do it consistently, your income and wealth rise in rough proportion to your societal contribution.

So if Shaq makes $10M this year, while a teacher makes $50K, does that mean that his contribution to society is 200 times greater than a teacher?

50. thehim spews:

GBS @ 46

I think that’s sarcasm, but I can’t tell. To elaborate, the neocons believed that as soon as any obstacles to free market reforms were removed from Iraq, capitalism would take off like Karl Rove towards an all-you-can-eat buffet. But the reality is that infrastructure needs to be built up first, and we needed to have Iraqis do that job, not KBR and other American companies. They’re only motivated by profit, so they have no interest in doing a lot of the thankless and risky things that were necessary for building a country from the ground up.

51. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim – That’s why I said “rough” proportion. In some cases it’s way out of line, and your example is one of them. I agree the teacher makes a far greater contribution than any pro athlete. That’s why I go to the schools to help teachers, and pro sports teams get none of my money except what is extorted from me to pay for those goddam stadiums.

52. Mark The Redneck spews:

Maybe you moonbats can ‘splain somethin’ to a dumfuck redneck.

Senator Windfall made an interesting comment yesterday when she was giving her ANWR victory speech. She made mention of not giving a “Christmas Package to the oil companies”.

Christmas package? WTF? Letting a corporation risk billions of dollars of THEIR money is some kind of gift? That’s stoopid on its face of course, but if I let that one pass…

What’s the deal with such contempt for the organizations that make our Murkan lifestyle possible? Why isn’t it appreciation and gratitude? I could even see being blase about it if you’re just the average dumbfucks on the left side of the bell curve… but I really don’t understand where the contempt and hate comes from.

A corporation is a great thing. It brings together the organization, the people, the money, and the ideas to do big things that would otherwise be impossible. Why do you guys love big gummint and big unions, but hate big corporations? Why do you moonbats on the left hate them so much?

53. thehim spews:

MTR,
But that’s the point here. It’s not even close to “rough” proportion. The people who contribute most to our society are the people who make average salaries. People who make very large amounts of money tend not to be the people that society needs. There are millions of Americans who could do Donald Trump’s j*b as well as he does. He isn’t some vital person who needs to keep all his money because he’s so important to our soceity. He’s just an example of drive and desire meeting up with luck and opportunity and is now very wealthy. People like him should be taxed higher than others in order to ensure that those who are really keeping this country strong can live their lives with a certain level of comfort befitting a first-world country.

You make it sound like the wealthiest 1% of this country are a bunch of up-from-the-bootstraps folks who start their own successful businesses. That’s not the reality. The wealthiest 1% are the Paris Hiltons, and they serve no purpose to you or me.

54. Erik spews:

Go Cantwell! Her action took alot of skill considering the makeup of the Senate.

55. thehim spews:

MTR @ 51
Christmas package? WTF? Letting a corporation risk billions of dollars of THEIR money is some kind of gift?

Are you saying that it’s a risky move for an oil company to drill in Alaska? First of all, technology already exists that can determine fairly accurately if oil exists in a certain region, so I can assure you that they already know what they’ll find up there. Second, if it’s not that big a deal, then how come Senator Stevens is standing on the ledge of his apartment building ready to jump?

A corporation is a great thing. It brings together the organization, the people, the money, and the ideas to do big things that would otherwise be impossible. Why do you guys love big gummint and big unions, but hate big corporations?

Corporations ARE great things. But corporations without oversight can be dangerous. A capitalist society works best when there are checks and balances between corporate power, labor union power, and government regulation. If any of those pieces becomes marginalized, we become more inefficient. That’s part of what’s happening now that’s so alarming. We’ve put the same level of trust in corporations that the Soviets put in labor unions. And it will end the same way, with inefficiency.

56. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim – C’mon….most people didn’t marry their wealth like Kerry or inherit it like Ted The Swimmer. The millionaire next door did it honestly by getting an education with some marketable skills, getting (or creating) a good job, showing up every day and working his ass off for 3-4 decades. That’s how it works. Are there exceptions? Sure. But you can’t take the exceptions like Paris, or John or Teddy and say they’re the norm. They’re not.

More on teacher pay… I’m all for increasing pay for good teachers. In addition to fairly compensating the good ones, it would attract better people to the profession. But the schools gotta do their part and get the money into the classroom. Currently less than half the money we spend on schools ends up in the classroom. I provide a volunteer service to schools which has given me the opportunity to see inside dozens of schools from Tukwila to Marysville. I’ve seen the best and the worst and the difference is huge. Until schools start getting their priorities straight, I’m gonna put every school levy under the microscope, and in most cases they fail my test.

57. JCH spews:

Hey Dems…….Refuse to let any oil companies do any gas, heating oil, or electrical business in your state!! That will show them, and will solve the “global warming” issue!! [hehe….Maybe John “Fucking” Kerry will fly into WASH state in his Gulfstream to show “leadership”!!!

58. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim – It’s a huge risk, especially in this situation. Drilling may not be a huge risk, but extraction, piping, shipping, refining, marketing and final delivery are all huge undertakings that include many risks.

You make the case for reasonable oversight of corporations. I agree. But that’s not the question I asked… there are a LOT of people on your side who have outright contempt and hate for corporations. That’s what I’m trying to understand.

59. Roger Rabbit spews:

28

I thought MTR had one of those Asian wives you buy through ads in gun magazines.

60. Roger Rabbit spews:

Or maybe he bought a Russian wife and doesn’t realize she’s a planted Russkie agent!

HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

61. dj spews:

Mark the Fascist @ 2

“He should take principled stands and defend them when the kooks challenge.”

Waaahhhhhh, haaaaaa, haaaaa. Ohhhhhh, hoooooo, hooooo.

Imagine that, you lecturing on “principled stands.” You cannot even make good on your bets.

Loser!

62. Roger Rabbit spews:

38

“how people get wealthy”

It has damned little to do with how hard you work, and a great deal to do with:

a) whether you inherit a business and/or a lot of money;
b) how ruthless you are (successful criminals tend to be wealthy);
c) whether you can maneuver yourself into a position of power that enables you to grab a lot of money;
d) how dishonest you are (card sharps and shady businessmen tend to do well);
e) societal corruption (right now, people who buy politicians are doing extremely well);
f) how manipulative you are (people who set up offshore bank accounts to avoid taxes do better than those who don’t);
g) how much capital you started out with (it takes money to make money).

63. thehim spews:

It’s a huge risk, especially in this situation. Drilling may not be a huge risk, but extraction, piping, shipping, refining, marketing and final delivery are all huge undertakings that include many risks.

What risks? Marketing? What are you talking about? Since when has marketing oil been a problem? Piping and shipping? They’ve already built a pipeline across the state. Why wouldn’t they be able to build another or build onto the existing one? Why would shipping be a problem? They ship oil from Alaska all the time. If they’re allowed to drill, the only risk is doing so much damage to the environment that political pressure forces them to stop again. And from what I’ve seen, the oil companies are actually quite capable of avoiding that when they’re motivated to.

You make the case for reasonable oversight of corporations. I agree. But that’s not the question I asked… there are a LOT of people on your side who have outright contempt and hate for corporations. That’s what I’m trying to understand.

It’s easy to understand. People have seen corporate abuses (Enron, Global Crossing, etc, etc, etc) and they’ve decided that all corporations are bad. I disagree with that position, but if you think that there are more people who feel that way on the left than people on the right who have the same unbalanced view of government programs or labor unions, you’re living quite far out in outer space, my friend.

64. Mark The Redneck spews:

Rabbit 2 59 – We don’t all act like lawyers. Geez…

65. thehim spews:

RR @ 59

The bigger point in all of this is that when you adopt the mindset that MTR has, that “wealth = importance”, you end up with a country that’s run by the kind of people who would throw their mother under a bus for a dollar.

66. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim @ 60 – You’re missing the point. Senator Windfall suggested it’s a “gift”. It’s not. The risk in the venture is borne entirely by the oil companies, and gummint got no skin in the game at all.

67. Roger Rabbit spews:

42

“Redneck you and your rich asshole friends are like the rabbit says – freeloaders.”

Of all the tripe MTR posts on this blog, he’s at his funniest when he gets preachy about “being productive” — because that sure as hell leaves him out. Moneychangers like MTR produce nothing. He does exactly the same thing lawyers like me do — he takes money out of one pocket and puts it in another pocket, taking his fee off the top every time he does so. The difference between him and me is that he pretends to be “productive” but I admit I’m a leech. At least my leeching does some good, because I take money from bad people and give it to good people. All he does is send a railcar full of beans from California to Philadelphia (fee), then sends it to Florida (fee), then sends it to Phoenix (fee), then sends it to Boston (fee), then sends it to Philadelphia again (fee) — and nobody ever eats the beans. This is called commodities trading, and it’s a totally unproductive and useless activity. The only reason the commodities trading system exists is so leeches like MTR can be

F R E E L O A D E R S

on society.

68. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim – No wealth = (approx) contribution .

69. GBS spews:

MTYD @ 51

Christmas package? WTF? Letting a corporation risk billions of dollars of THEIR money is some kind of gift? That’s stoopid on its face of course, but if I let that one pass…

First, when they risk their money, it’ll be a different story, but given the amount of tax breaks that have coming their way, it’s the public’s money.

Second, it’s public land. Which means it’s not just for corporate consumption.

Third, if you were to get on board with Senator Cantwell’s energy independence by 2020 program you’d realize that this is the 21st century. It’s time to abandon your 20th century mindset and begin to develop the process on not using fossil fuels, coal, and nuclear materials as sources of energy.

Before you go off on a false tangent, nobody is suggesting we pull the plug today, but we must have leadership, like JFK, to put in motion something new and bold. Dare I say Progressive.

Conservative mindsets constrain the advancement of science and progress. Progressive mindsets bring about changes that advance the human experience. Like those of our Founding Fathers who were, by and large, not Christians they were Deist and rejected the Bible as fables. Knowing what bad things happen when the clergy is involved in governance they were specific to make sure they were mutually exclusive of each other in the constitution.

70. For the Clueless spews:

A corporation is a great thing.

Redneck, if they’re so great why don’t they pay their fair share of taxes? Every year they pay less and less of a percentage of the tax burden. You and I have to make up the difference. The tax code is lousy with breaks for them.

They have just as much to gain from a victory on the war on Terra and the sacrifices of military families like individuals but like you – they just don’t want to pay.

Why is that Redneck? Educate me.

71. thehim spews:

You’re missing the point. Senator Windfall suggested it’s a “gift”. It’s not. The risk in the venture is borne entirely by the oil companies, and gummint got no skin in the game at all.

Did you even read my post? I strongly question this notion that there is risk involved. Are you going to prove to me that there’s risk involved, or are you going to demonstrate why everyone on this board is now calling you Mark the Yellowdick? Do you have a pair? Strap ‘em on and debate the actual questions at hand. What is so risky about drilling for oil in Alaska?

72. Roger Rabbit spews:

43

“Why do conservatives like you move to a state which is well known for being liberal, and then grouse about that liberalism?”

Because he makes a damn good living in this socialistic state, that’s why. And also for the same reason people who avoid paying taxes with tax shelters bitch about the taxes they don’t pay: Because they enjoy hearing themselves talk.

73. GBS spews:

Roger Rabbit @ 64

I prefer “Free Lunch Conservatism” as the analogy to describe neo-con-victs.

74. thehim spews:

No wealth = (approx) contribution

How is that different? What’s the difference between your “contribution” and your “importance”?

75. Roger Rabbit spews:

68

Drilling for oil in ANWR is the surest bet since palming aces from the bottom of the deck was invented.

76. Mark The Redneck spews:

Rabbit – I’m a licensed engineer and MBA. Months ago, I tried to teach a moonbat here about calls and puts and I think that’s where you picked up the notion that that’s what I do. But all that is just part of my VAST array of knowledge on diverse subject areas.

As a public service though… I will attempt to educate you. Commodities traders DO add value to the free markets by providing stability through a process called “hedging”. Calls and puts are roughly analogous to rainchecks and insurance policies and provide protection against market volatility. That stability and predictability is essential to smooth function of markets.

77. Roger Rabbit spews:

68 (continued)

Anyway, the oil industry (like banking, mortgage lending, insurance, and other big industries) figured out long ago how to take the profits and pass the risks and losses to taxpayers.

78. Roger Rabbit spews:

72

“I’m a licensed engineer and MBA.”

Whoop-de-doo. Mrs. Rabbit is a licensed driver, but that doesn’t mean she can drive worth shit.

79. Roger Rabbit spews:

“my VAST array of knowledge on diverse subject areas.”

Whoop de doo. I know a farmer in eastern Washington who owns 30,000 books and has a vast array of knowledge on diverse subject areas, and lives in a cardboard shack.

80. Curious George spews:

MTR writes in part:

“…It’s [ANWR drilling] a huge risk, especially in this situation. Drilling may not be a huge risk, but extraction, piping, shipping, refining, marketing and final delivery are all huge undertakings that include many risks…”

Drilling & extraction…. That’s why the northern third of the state of Alaska used to be designated a “Naval Petroleum Reserve”???? Look at the old USGS topog maps.

Piping & shipping…. Isn’t there already a pipeline from the arctic to Valdez?

Refining…. The refineries are already built. It’s big business that shuts them down at “inoportune times” to hike prices.

Marketing & delivery…. Give a break! Look at I-5 any morning
or afternoon, Monday through Friday, and tell me big oil has a problem marketing its products.

81. Mark The Redneck spews:

Clueless – Show me data that says corporations are paying a decreasing share of taxes. Also, tell me what a “fair” share is.

Let’s say we taxed the shit out of corporations. What would that do? Where would the money come from? Be sure to include the concept of “elasticity of demand” in your answer.

82. thehim spews:

But all that is just part of my VAST array of knowledge on diverse subject areas.

LOL! I hope you meant that as a joke. Otherwise, I just feel sorry for you.

83. Roger Rabbit spews:

72

“As a public service though… I will attempt to educate you. Commodities traders DO add value to the free markets by providing stability through a process called “hedging”. Calls and puts are roughly analogous to rainchecks and insurance policies and provide protection against market volatility. That stability and predictability is essential to smooth function of markets.”

I understand the market system, asshole. How come you don’t understand that government regulators and enforcers like me are also essential to the smooth functioning of markets and society?

84. GBS spews:

my VAST array of knowledge on diverse subject areas.

Baaa Haaaa haaaa haaaaa haaaa haaaa haaaa.

Bullshit.

What a lyin’ piece of dog shit!

85. thehim spews:

George @ 76

I’m still scratching my head over that one. That was the wingnuttiest of the wingnutty right there. With a side of fries.

86. Tree Frog Farmer spews:

To GBS @ 19 “You’ve really imprssed me with your debating skills. In fact, you’re a master-debater.”
Nooo-o-o. Not quite. What MTR is is a “master….bater”.

87. Belltowner spews:

I have this book at home that shows that corporations pay a substantially decreased percentage of all taxes collected… Something like 25 percent to 10 percent. I don’t know if that’ll work for you…

88. Roger Rabbit spews:

MTR — as a public service, I will attempt to educate you. My brother predators of the legal profession who search for bad managements, have their law clerk buy 1 share of stock in the badly managed companies they find, and then file class-action shareholder suits are helping the markets function by weeding out bad and dishonest managements, keeping financial reports honest, and maintaining investor confidence in the capital markets. What’s so hard for you to understand about that? Why are Republicans like you always try to give companies legal immunity from bad behavior?

89. Mark The Redneck spews:

No, you don’t understand the market system. You made a moonbat rant about commodities markets which proves in your own words you don’t know shit.

Where did I say regulation was not essential? In fact, the very foundation of free markets is the system of law that we have, and why economies in “developing” countries are so fucked up.

Without giving anything away that you aren’t comfortable with… what field of law did you work in? I got the impression it was family law, but am I mistaken? Was it contracts, IP, family, environmental, criminal, etc?

90. Roger Rabbit spews:

84

I think the more pertinent statistic is that virtually all of America’s economic growth of the last 30 years has ended up in the pockets of the wealthiest 5%.

In 1970, the top fifth owned 22% of America’s assets. In 2003, the top fifth owned 45% of America’s assets.

I guess that must mean the low-wage workers laboring at three jobs to make ends meet aren’t working very hard, because as MTR tells us, wealth is a reward for hard work.

BWAAA HAAAA HAAAA AAA or, as Roger Rabbit would say,

HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

91. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim, Belltowner…. try IRS website. Get back to me.

92. Roger Rabbit spews:

“In fact, the very foundation of free markets is the system of law that we have,”

WOW!!! Then why do you support the party of lawbreakers?

93. Roger Rabbit spews:

Hey MTR — don’t lose this train of thought, you’re definitely on the right track … now, what do you think about a president who violates the Constitution and federal law — and lies about it? Should he be impeached?

94. Roger Rabbit spews:

Rule of law, or rule of thugs? Which are you for, MTR? No fence straddling, now!

95. thehim spews:

Thehim, Belltowner…. try IRS website. Get back to me.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Again, what risk is there for oil companies drilling in Alaska?

96. Roger Rabbit spews:

89

“No, you don’t understand the market system.”

Of course I understand the market system. That’s why my stock portfolio is worth 10 times my original investment.

97. Roger Rabbit spews:

Let’s see, what did I pay for my Starbucks stock? $2 a share, adjusted for splits, or something like that.

98. Mark The Redneck spews:

For example when he lies to a grand jury in an attempt to conceal a pattern of predatory behavior in connection with a felony assault case? Nothing apparently…

Or when he illegally tapes and publishes a private phone conversation? Uhh.. give him a free pass I think.

When he complies with longstanding court rulings essential to national security? Uhh… I think you commend him and thank God he’s in office and not some kook moonbat.

Did I get it right?

99. For the Clueless spews:

Redneck –

Here you go.

Let’s say a fair share is about halfway between what it is now and what it was at its peak in the fifties.

100. Roger Rabbit spews:

In a capitalist society, class-action lawyers are as essential as sharks are to a marine ecosystem — we weed out weak and useless companies that are merely taking up space in the marketplace.

101. thehim spews:

For example when he lies to a grand jury in an attempt to conceal a pattern of predatory behavior in connection with a felony assault case?

Yes, of course. Clinton went after Monica!! He was a predator!! You may know a lot about commodities, but your expertise does not extend to understanding the birds and the bees.

When he complies with longstanding court rulings essential to national security?

If you’re referring to Bush’s announcement recently that he broke federal law, you might want to turn your computer off now and put the Teletubbies back on because I will embarrass you if you even attempt to back that statement up.

102. Roger Rabbit spews:

97

WTF are you talking about?

Which president committed a felony assault?
Which president illegally taped and published a phone conversation?
Which “longstanding court ruling essential to national security” did Bush comply with? The one that says he needs the warrants he didn’t get?

Don’t fucking kid yourself, Mark. There’s absolutely nothing “longstanding” about what Bush did, either in the law, or in the practices of past presidents. HE BROKE THE FUCKING LAW. And he says he’s going to keep breaking it. Impeach the bastard. That’s what impeachment is for – not for fibbing about a private consensual sexual affair (felony assault? who the fuck are you kidding?).

103. Roger Rabbit spews:

MTR — if I’m a moonbat, you’re the moonbeam. You and I are a team, buddy.

104. Roger Rabbit spews:

“I do solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

105. Roger Rabbit spews:

MTR — where is Bush authorized to do end runs around the Constitution? (See #103 above)

106. Mark The Redneck spews:

Clueless – Good source. I hadn’t seen that.

Marginal rates in the 50s were 50% and stayed at that rate even through the 80s when we had the Greatest President of the 20th Century. It dropped in the 90s to the rate now of about 35%. Today’s rates seem about right, or maybe a little high.

107. Mark The Redneck spews:

Wabbit – Huh? What end run?

Did you see the Chicago Trib article by Bubba’s asst AG?

108. Roger Rabbit spews:

106

The Silly Meter just went off the scale.

109. Mark The Redneck spews:

Thehim – Don’t ask me. Ask Bubba’s asst AG. He laid it out pretty clearly in yesterday’s Chicago Trib. Go find it.

110. thehim spews:

Mark,
Still waiting for your explanation of the risks in Alaska. Or are you just content posting non sequitirs?

111. thehim spews:

Post a link, I’m not looking for your crap. If you think you have something valuable, find it. Don’t expect me to do your legwork, jackass.

112. thehim spews:

Maybe I can save you some time. If you’re talking about Jamie Gorelick’s testimony from 1994, you can find out what that’s not the same as what Bush did here. Otherwise, throw me a link.

113. Mr. Cynical spews:

For The LEFTIST PINHEADED KLOWNS:
Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes or an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. And without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wished. By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.”

For My RIGHT Friends:

Here’s wishing all of You a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah and a Happy New Year!

114. Mark The Redneck spews:

There’s a link on Limbaugh’s site. Go get it.

115. Roger Rabbit spews:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200512220007

“Ex-Clinton official Schmidt’s defense of warrantless wiretaps, cited by York and Angle, rife with inaccuracy, empty arguments, and unwarranted credulity

“Summary: In a Chicago Tribune op-ed, John Schmidt, former associate attorney general under President Clinton, argued that President Bush’s decision to authorize warrantless domestic surveillance ‘is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.’ However, Schmidt falsely claimed that Jamie Gorelick, as deputy attorney general under Clinton, testified that the president has the authority to ‘go beyond’ the terms of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). Schmidt also offered a number of empty and irrelevant arguments in defense of Bush.

“Scmidt’s op-ed has been cited by various media conservatives as a defense of Bush’s actions. …

“Schmidt’s claim about Gorelick testimony is false

“FISA, passed in 1978, requires that the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court authorize any domestic surveillance. In his Tribune op-ed, Schmidt wrote: ‘Every president since FISA’s passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act’s terms.’ As evidence, he quoted Gorelick’s 1994 testimony before the Senate Intelligence Committee, in which she said: ‘[T]he Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has the inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes.’ But as Media Matters for America noted, physical searches were not governed by FISA at the time Gorelick made that statement. So her argument was not that the president could go beyond FISA, as Schmidt wrote, but that FISA did not then apply to physical searches. FISA was amended in 1995 to encompass physical searches. Moreover, Gorelick at the time stated her support for legislation requiring FISA warrants for physical searches.

“Schmidt obscured NSA program’s ‘targeting’ to defend Bush

“Schmidt went on to write: ‘FISA contains a provision making it illegal to “engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute.” … The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. …’

“Schmidt’s assertion that it is ‘unclear’ whether the NSA surveillance is specifically targeting citizens ignores Bush’s own characterization of his actions in authorizing the domestic spying. In a December 19 press conference, Bush said the calls being monitored under the NSA program ‘are from outside the country to in the country, or vice versa.’ He made no distinction between ‘a United States person,’ and someone in the country who lacks legal immigration status. If Bush administration officials could say that only undocumented immigrants were targeted, that would likely be their first line of defense. Schmidt used the administration’s ‘cryptic descriptions of the NSA program’ in Bush’s defense, when in fact the point that their descriptions have been ‘cryptic’ merely highlights the administration’s efforts to claim — without specificity — its legal authority to engage in these actions. Moreover, Schmidt ignored the provision within FISA (50 USC 1802) that specifically addresses electronic surveillance without a warrant, which requires the attorney general to certify in writing and under oath that ‘there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party.’ The administration has thus far not produced such certification from Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, and Bush’s characterization of the program suggests that such certification would be impossible to make.

“Schmidt’s assertion also ignores specific news accounts indicating that the NSA program targeted at least one legalized alien. …

“Schmidt defended Bush with a red herring

“Schmidt then wrote: ‘But even if the NSA activity is “electronic surveillance” [as set out and governed by FISA] and the Sept. 11 resolution* is not “statutory authorization” within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, “encroach upon the president’s constitutional power.”‘

“Schmidt was quoting a ruling by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, which stated that FISA could not encroach on the president’s ‘authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information.’ … Of course a law passed in 1978 would not trump the Constitution — the supreme law of the land. The question is whether Bush, as president, has the constitutional authority to authorize warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and legalized aliens, notwithstanding FISA’s restrictions. Contrary to Schmidt’s suggestion, the case he cited does not address that question.

“Schmidt accepted Bush’s assertions about scope of NSA program, despite past inconsistent statements and despite lack of judicial oversight

“Schmidt continued:

“‘Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose. But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept. 11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.’

“Here, Schmidt suggested that the eavesdropping program has not already expanded beyond the administration’s stated ‘narrow and extraordinary purpose.’ But how could Schmidt know this? Many observers have noted that the president’s April 2004 statement (in which he said: ‘Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires — a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so’) appears to have been flatly false. Gonzales stated the supposed boundaries of the program during a December 19 press conference, claiming that the eavesdropping is limited to ‘communication[s] where the other end of the call is outside the United States and where we believe that either the American citizen or the person outside the United States is somehow affiliated with Al Qaeda.’ But there has been no judicial review or any substantive congressional oversight of the program.

“Indeed, The New York Times reported on December 21 that the program ‘has captured what are purely domestic communications in some cases, despite a requirement by the White House that one end of the intercepted conversations take place on foreign soil.’ According to the Times:

“‘Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Mr. Bush’s order allowing some domestic surveillance. But in at least one instance, someone using an international cellphone was thought to be outside the United States when in fact both people in the conversation were in the country. Officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the program remains classified, would not discuss the number of accidental intercepts, but the total is thought to represent a very small fraction of the total number of wiretaps that Mr. Bush has authorized without getting warrants. In all, officials say the program has been used to eavesdrop on as many as 500 people at any one time, with the total number of people reaching perhaps into the thousands in the last three years.’

* Joint Resolution 23, which authorized the president to “use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.”

—S.S.M.

116. thehim spews:

Mr. Cynical,
You’re such a card! How did Hee-Haw miss you?

117. Roger Rabbit spews:

Isn’t it amazing (and amazingly hypocritical) that Republicans, who for generations have peddled themselves as defenders of freedom, are nothing but a bunch of fucking apologists for a president who ordered illegal warrantless wiretaps — and lied about it?

118. thehim spews:

Thanks Roger, you beat me to it.

Mark, want to keep embarrassing yourself? Please do, I’m enjoying this.

119. Roger Rabbit spews:

Hey all you NSA and FBI agents tapping into my keyboard to see what I’m typing — Happy Holidays!!!!! :D :D :D

120. Roger Rabbit spews:

112

Hey Cynical — you too!!! :D :D :D

121. thehim spews:

And Mark,
In case you don’t/can’t read through all of that, I’ll sum up. The Clinton administration claimed that FISA was too constrictive for what they needed to do, but they never broke the law. They lobbied for the law to be changed. Bush did not do that. He decided that the law was too restrictive, so he just broke it.

122. Donnageddon spews:

Janet S @ 32 “National stories on this never make mention of her (Cantwell’s)name.”

Uh.. How stupid can you be Janet? Do you even fucking read?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051222/ap_on_go_co/arctic_drilling_31

“Sen. Maria Cantwell (news, bio, voting record), R-Wash., an ardent defender of the refuge who led anti-drilling forces during the Senate debate, called Stevens’ tactic “legislative blackmail” and “trickery” that united Democrats on the issue.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051222/sc_nm/energy_congress_dc_36

“We will remain vigilant next year to make sure that the country focuses its energy on real solutions to our overdependence on foreign oil and not Christmas packages for oil companies,” said Democrat Maria Cantwell of Washington”

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051221/480/wx12012212015

“Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., smiles during a Capitol Hill news conference, Wednesday, Dec. 21, 2005, after the Senate voted against closure on the Defense Appropriations Conference” (Includes Picture of Sen. Cantwell)

That is a small sampling of the Press coverage, and Senator Cantwell is mentioned in every single one.

Janet S. It is time for you to stop posting until you can learn to fucking read.

123. Roger Rabbit spews:

Say, Cynical, I hope you don’t mind if –

To all you NSA and FBI agents wiretapping Roger Rabbit’s keyboard, please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion or secular practices of your choice, with due respect for the religious and/or secular persuasions and/or traditions and/or practices of others, and/or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all; I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling, and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the Gregoriancalendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great, which is not meant to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country, nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere, or that America has a superior culture; and without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee. By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal at the sole discretion of the wisher. It is freely transferable provided no alteration is made to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or itself or others, and is void where taxed, prohibited by law, or subject to regulation; and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and damages for breach of warranty are limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher.

124. Roger Rabbit spews:

Hey Cynical — On close reading, it appears the warranty on yours has a loophole, so I’m calling my lawyer!

125. For the Clueless spews:

105 – Nice try to evade the issue Redneck – nothing to do with rates – everything to do with the Corp’s actual share of the tax burden.

Like the graph shows – corps have paid a smaller share of the burden over time. Why? Isn’t it obvious? They’ve bought off the politicians – both parties.

Back to what’s fair – they should pay more – not what they did in the early fifties but a hell of lot more than now.

126. thehim spews:

Donnageddon,
There are few things more wingnutty than someone getting irate about how Democrats act like politicians doing the bidding of the party leadership while they cheer on Republicans…

127. Roger Rabbit spews:

120

“And Mark,
In case you don’t/can’t read through all of that, I’ll sum up. The Clinton administration claimed that FISA was too constrictive for what they needed to do, but they never broke the law. They lobbied for the law to be changed. Bush did not do that. He decided that the law was too restrictive, so he just broke it.”

Hey Mark — let me explain this way for simpletons like you. If the speed limit on your street is 25 mph, and you think it should be 45, if you drive 45 you’ll get a ticket anyway.

128. thehim spews:

Hey Mark – let me explain this way for simpletons like you. If the speed limit on your street is 25 mph, and you think it should be 45, if you drive 45 you’ll get a ticket anyway.

Well put, dude.

Mark, oil companies, risks, Alaska, still waiting…

129. Proud to be an Ass spews:

Vagina Lips wows the masses: As a public service though… I will attempt to educate you. Commodities traders DO add value to the free markets by providing stability through a process called “hedging”. Calls and puts are roughly analogous to rainchecks and insurance policies and provide protection against market volatility. That stability and predictability is essential to smooth function of markets.

Commodities markets allow some economic players to hedge future price fluctuations (i.e., risk), but it is a zero-sum game. Without “speculators” hedgers could not hedge. There is no “value-added” in an economic sense, just risk shifting.

So tell us more about your endothermic theory of vaginas. The world wants to know.

130. marks spews:

Cluless @14

It’s a fact and it’s a damn shame because the promise of this country is that everyone has a shot at getting to the middle class and even farther if they’re lucky.

Then get an education. There is no surer way out of poverty than that.

@35

Are you posting these for me specifically? Because what you say hits close, yet you still fail to hit the mark:

Not only do they “ante up” in money terms – they ante up their lives after getting to the other end of high school and finding no jobs unless it’s a Republican war of choice.

Everyone has a choice. If you do not want to fight a war, don’t join the military. If you believe the CIC is evil, you’d be an idiot to join. There are so many colleges you can attend with so many programs to learn you an applicable skill in life. Do it, or do what I did and join the military.

Btw – I am sure GBS can attest to the fact, but not all military enlisted veterans get out without marketable skills. The failure remains at the high school level, when they produce graduates who can’t be effective in college without remedial courses, thus perpetuating the poorer class of society.

131. thehim spews:

Then get an education. There is no surer way out of poverty than that.

It’s more than that, though. There are a lot of well-educated starving people in Cuba. There’s no reason that America can’t ensure that only those who choose to be in poverty are in poverty. Working hard trumps education every day of the week too. Someone who works hard every day in this country should not have to worry about whether or not they can feed their family.

132. thehim spews:

Gotta run,
MTR, still waiting for your explanation on the great risk that those oil companies are taking by drilling for oil in Alaska. I’m sure there are parts of your ass that you haven’t looked in yet. Godspeed.

133. marks spews:

thehim @132

Damn, you just run off? Oh well, have a good night…

134. Mark The Redneck spews:

Hey Donna – Did you make any progress today finding out what people in your office do? Did you even try? Did you even attempt to research “router”? So let’s back up a bit. The internet can be thought of as a series of layers. There’s a 5 layer model and a 7 layer model. Can you name even one layer? Go ahead and google it and maybe read the whole thing. It would be good for you.

You’re obviously not Master’s material, but you could go up the street to BCC and take some evening classes. Your employer will pay for them 100%; all ya gotta do is show up and do the work. Might be interesting.

135. Proud to be an Ass spews:

More from Vagina Lips:

A corporation is a great thing. It brings together the organization, the people, the money, and the ideas to do big things that would otherwise be impossible.

Not exactly. This legal entity allows investors to throw money at “oppurtunities” while limiting their personal risk. It is this which allows them to raise the resources they can command, but there is nothing which says all big companies must or should be corporations. Some very big and very well know companies are privately owned.

Why do you guys love big gummint and big unions, but hate big corporations?

Geez, Vagina Lips, I dunno. Why do they call a collection of folks a “society”? Basically big corporations mean big influence and outsized degree of market power. This power has political implications. Why are you so opposed to people bringing together their resources, time, sweat, and ideas that may counteract corporate power?

Still waiting for further elaboration on the endothermic theory of vaginas.

136. Mark The Redneck spews:

GBS – How are those bruises today? How did you explain those rake shaped purple blotches on your face to the people in the warehouse today?

LMAO ! ! ! !

137. marks spews:

Thehim @131

There are a lot of well-educated starving people in Cuba.

Should I put on my Castro hat and explain why the People’s Paradise is so lacking due to US interference? Perhaps the hurricanes this season (a shameful byproduct of American rejection of Kyoto) is the reason…[sarcasm, in case you did not notice].

There’s no reason that America can’t ensure that only those who choose to be in poverty are in poverty.

I actually agree with you to a point. If a person lacks education or life skills and a will to learn them, there is not much that can be done.

Working hard trumps education every day of the week too.

Working hard and earning good grades at education should be the trump card.

Someone who works hard every day in this country should not have to worry about whether or not they can feed their family.

And that is why a student who earns good grades should be able to alleviate the burden somehow. I do not have the answer, but there has to be a way to do it, especially in this age of grants and loans. But what of the others?

I am reminded of Eddie Albert in “Caddyshack” saying that the world needs ditch-diggers, too.

138. For the Clueless spews:

Marks -

Then get an education. There is no surer way out of poverty than that.

Well, duh. I guess if you can find some way to feed, clothe and house yourself while taking a full load.

Now what is the standard military recruiting incentive? Oh yeah – we’ll fund your education! Gee I’ve even known a few people who took advantage of that.

Are you posting these for me specifically? Because what you say hits close, yet you still fail to hit the mark:

Yea right anything you say.

Everyone has a choice. If you do not want to fight a war, don’t join the military. If you believe the CIC is evil, you’d be an idiot to join. There are so many colleges you can attend with so many programs to learn you an applicable skill in life. Do it, or do what I did and join the military.

Great choices for a poor person – study while starving and homeless or answer the military recruiter’s siren call.

Btw – I am sure GBS can attest to the fact, but not all military enlisted veterans get out without marketable skills. The failure remains at the high school level, when they produce graduates who can’t be effective in college without remedial courses, thus perpetuating the poorer class of society.

Well then write your Congressman and Senator to fully fund “No Child Left Behind” but I guess borrowing money from Japan and China to wage a war of choice takes priority.

139. Proud to be an Ass spews:

Oops. Almost forgot: Reichert is a flip-flopping hypocrite. I believe this is where this thread started before the loons broke through the fence.

140. Roger Rabbit spews:

Megachurches Wage War Against Christmas

ABC News reports some fundie megachurches will lock their doors and refuse to hold services this Sunday, because Christmas falls on Sunday. Why do they hate Christmas?

141. marks spews:

Ass @138

Oops. Almost forgot: Reichert is a flip-flopping hypocrite. I believe this is where this thread started before the loons broke through the fence.

RR @139

Megachurches Wage War Against Christmas

ABC News reports some fundie megachurches will lock their doors and refuse to hold services this Sunday, because Christmas falls on Sunday. Why do they hate Christmas?

So much for regaining your topic…

142. Mark The Redneck spews:

Ass – I’d explain it, but since you don’t know the difference between endothermic and exothermic, it’s a waste of fucking time. Besides, you have no context to understand.

143. Mr. Cynical spews:

Hey Mark the Redneck!
Only these tighta$$ KLOWN’s would 1st focus on where something funny came from….rather than merely enjoy the humor!!
This is why LENIN’S USEFUL IDIOTS will never
gain the necessary steam. These KLOWNS regularly ooze moronic juices from every pore in their body. I used to think these KLOWNS were just kidding. What a shock it was to learn they were actually SERIOUS about their lamea$$ ideas!!!! So serious that KLOWNS are obviously VICTIMS of a horrible affliction where their humor gland has shriveled up and fallen off!
All they want from the Secular Holiday Person is a new Humor Gland!!

144. For the Clueless spews:

142 – Here’s something funny.

Spittin’ image of an election contest losin’, truman democrat recruitin’, brownie/irons-lovin’ LOSER!

145. Mr. Cynical spews:

Hey–
Remember Goldy’s outrage about the ALLEGED hateful beating of a University of Kansas College Prof., Paul Mirecki, who claimed he was stopped and beaten up??? This Prof was the KLOWN who intentionally misrepresented his class to give it to the Fundies!
Whatever happened to him???
Michelle Malkin is tracking the “curious” story!
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004037.htm

146. Mr. Cynical spews:

Michelle Malkin also sez:
” The truth is there are too many cases of hate crime hoaxers on campuses — a phenomenon most left-leaning journalists are loathe to cover — to dismiss the possibility in this case. Last year, Claremont McKenna College professor Kerri Dunn was sentenced to prison after she staged an anti-Semitic hate crime against herself. Earlier this year, a lesbian student at Mt. Tamalpais High School in Marin County, Calif., faked several anti-gay incidents to garner attention and sympathy. Leah Miller, a black student at San Francisco State University, admitted to scratching “NIGG” on a dorm room door and writing herself a note with the same epithet. Jaime Alexander Saide, a Northwestern University student, admitted making up anti-Hispanic threats against himself after the school rallied around him with “Stop the Hate” marches.
Strange, isn’t it, how leftists on campus who sneer at blind faith are so often fooled by it themselves.”

KLOWNS like Goldy are willingly duped every day if it furthers their “cause”, which I still haven’t figured out what the “cause” is other than they Hate Bush and want to be viewed as “Progressive’ cuz it sounds forward thinking. In reality, these KLOWNS are fuzzy thinking! SUCKERS!

147. marks spews:

Clueless @143

truman democrat recruitin’

So, you forego history and decide which Democrat is worthy? Why is Truman a dirty word for your party? Or is he?

148. For the Clueless spews:

marks – the joke was meant for Cynical Irrelevant Clown. Unlike you he knows what it means.

I’ll clue you in because after all, my comments here are “for the clueless”: Cynical Irrelevant Clown has bragged often about getting Truman Democrats to sign his petition of the day like I-912.

Maybe so, but apparently it was just to get the Clown to go away as we saw from the results of last November.

149. marks spews:

Clueless @137

Thanks for your time. I actually read your answers. They were a bit abrasive, which is to say not unexpected…

Anyway, you fail to take into account the obvious: Just out of high school, and could go to college. Hell, the family kept together this long, why not allow Jorge/Jimmy/Trinidad/Kimmy go to college until s/he’s 22? Tax breaks make it easy…oh I forgot, they are poor and already get the maximum tax break allowed. Perhaps we need a program to allow the status quo? Oh, that would be student loans and personal responsibility and other bad words…

150. marks spews:

Goldy,

Have a wonderful weekend. Can you do anything about your filter? Or is it operating at it’s optimal characteristics?

151. marks spews:

btw Clueless @147,

Thanks for clueing me in…

152. Proud to be an Ass spews:

Ass – I’d explain it, but since you don’t know the difference between endothermic and exothermic, it’s a waste of fucking time.

Come on, Vagina Lips, what does that matter? You made the assertion. Back it up, Lips. Impress us with your “cool” knowledge.

Besides, you have no context to understand.

How would you know this? Oh, wait. You’re just jealous. What a guy.

153. Proud to be an Ass spews:

@140: So much for regaining your topic…

Comment by marks— 12/22/05 @ 6:42 pm

Sigh. You just had to remind me, didn’t you?

154. RUFUS spews:

Hey donks are you accusing Bush of “Aldrich Aims” terrorists?

155. GS spews:

The fight is not over yet, you can BET on it! We need our oil and you F’ers can shove it where the sun don’t shine.

156. Winston Smith spews:

Rake bruises ………….. Heh…..Heh…….. Now I get it!

157. Winston Smith spews:

re 153: The sun doesn’t shine in your ass, so I guess that’s where we’ll shove it…. Happy trails, cowboy!!

158. dj spews:

GS @ 156

And a very merry shove up your ass, too, motherfucker.

159. Donnageddon spews:

GS, statesmen or syphalitic casuality?

“The fight is not over yet, you can BET on it! We need our oil and you F’ers can shove it where the sun don’t shine.”

vs

“Give me liberty or give me death”?

Yep, the answer is “syphalitic casuality”.

160. Donnageddon spews:

Mark The Villiage Idiot Rake Tripping Yellowneck Dick,

Regarding your “Vaginas make women stoopid” claim; You could go to BCC and strike up a conversation with the Co-eds about your theory, but I am sure they would slit your nutsack tie your vas deferens around the rake planted on your forehead and shove the rake handle up your ass.

So, yes, this is definetly what you should do.

161. windie spews:

I like the disclaimer in MTR’s crazy story above “I know the sample is too small, but…”

translated:

“I know this research is between anecdotal and useless, but it gives the Sexists of the wolrd an exuse!”

162. GBS spews:

thehim@ 50

Sorry, it wasn’t sarcasm, it was 100% agreement with you and your continued comments at 50.

163. For the Clueless spews:

Marks @ 149

He was in college and wanted the educational benefits. At that point, we didn’t know that the contract is only binding on the recruit — the Army doesn’t have to deliver on its promises. They promised him a $20,000 signing bonus; he got $4,500. They promised him a laptop so he could take classes; he never got it. They promised him he could be a chaplain’s assistant; when he got to boot camp, they said, “That position is filled, but you can be a Humvee mechanic or a cook.” It breaks my heart that someone so trusting could be so misused by people.

164. Tom Johnson spews:

@98 Mark

Take all the mystery out of it – blow job. Just that. Only that. Forever that. Nothing more.

I would guess something you need a lot more of for more mental relaxation. Yes, God is OK with hauling your ashes once a week, by several methods.

Basic to human nature, and enjoyed by both seses. Horny women do exist, God creted them.

Jesus’s wife Mary was one of them, my parting Christmas thought.

165. GBS spews:

Mark The Yellowdick:

Hey, I hear you’re wife/siter ordered mud flaps fromthe JC Whitney catalogs for your “luxury SUV.” Must’ve had a special on parts for ’72 Ford Rangers.

166. Tom Johnson spews:

According to Euro media ace from Agence Francaise — Euro nations who have allowed CIA prisons will loose their vote in the EU -

Secret prisons are forbidded in the EU charter – Poland and Romania in trouble. Bothe were named in foreign stories about the secret lockups.

Giant story in Europe – shades of Adolph and all totaliraian regimes over the centuries, including the Inquisition. And bruning tens of thousand of women as wichches back then.

167. marks spews:

Clueless,

Recruiters are well known for promising the world. The bad thing is that some folks go into it without a, well, clue. There are two things you have to do for yourself: a) ask questions, and b) get answers in writing on official forms signed by both parties.

They promised him he could be a chaplain’s assistant; when he got to boot camp,

Based on my raw ASVAB score I was eligible for almost any enlisted rating, including nuke (no thank you, said I, to nuke because it limits your career to aircraft carriers and subs). The rating I wanted was filled at that point and I had to go to a default (this classification system usually happens at the MEPS station, not boot camp, though the Army is a different animal). I ended up with “guaranteed” training for a 6-year hitch. Unfortunately, at the end of my advanced electronics training I was assigned a follow-on radar “C” school that guaranteed I would be on aircraft carriers for my entire career.

I do not blame my recruiter for that. The Navy does things according to percentiles, the top scholastic student(s) get to choose their follow-on training based on availability, while in descending order the next best follow-on are assigned to students based on grade. I should have tanked a couple more tests to ensure I would have ended up with a cushy crypto NEC instead of the radar system, but I got over it.

168. GBS spews:

marks @ 168

Shellback or polywog?

169. GBS spews:

marks:

PS: I also answered your question @ 123 on the Cantwell theread without the obligatory, and well deserved, “bush hate.”

170. Mark The Redneck spews:

Marks – re no to nukes… What’s wrong with being assigned to carrier or sub?

171. marks spews:

GBS @169

Crusty, of course! No slime behind my ears. On our way to Perth I was ‘cleansed’ in a what today would be considered a mass-hazing incident. As I understand it nowadays, the Wog day ceremonies include hand-holding and self-navel-contemplation, followed by a severe thrashing with a wet noodle.

At any rate, that ceremony taught me the value of giving vice receiving. :)

172. windie spews:

probably the long tours… It can be tough on marriages and such. But I’m just guessing as to his reason, not *quite* psychic :D

Too bad yer not a nuke tho, do we have jobs for them right now!

173. marks spews:

MTR,

As far as carriers go, since I eventually made my home on them, nothing. One issue that did not turn out to be true was the possibility that it would limit my evals and the CPO Board would view it as a negative. Since I got out only going to the Board once, that did not matter.

Subs have a notoriety of their own, and while I am not claustrophobic I would prefer the potential for seeing daylight during the day.

174. Winston Smith spews:

“I hate Republicans!” Howard Dean

Me too, Howard.

175. GBS spews:

@ 172

I was cleansed myself on a WesPac cruise ’81-’82 on my way to Perth too. Nothing like kissing the “Royay Baby” is there?

176. marks spews:

GBS,

You had to remind me…Yeeech! The Wog Queen, though…I would have preferred to kiss “her” instead, but they didn’t give that option.

177. Roger Rabbit spews:

In the 1968 Army, ABI (anything but infantry) was a good career option …

178. GBS spews:

@ 176

The best one was getting “branded” with a red hot brand that said “wog” on it.

We were randomly pulled out of the “herd” and taken to the HT shop. They would strap us to a board and one of the HT’s showed you their glowing, red hot branding iron, then they blind folded you. What you couldn’t see was another branding iron sitting in a bucket of ice. They put the red hot braning iron close to your chest so you could feel the heat and say “get ready to be branded, you stinking WOG!

Then, wham, they hit you with the ice-cold branding iron. Talk about fuckin’ with your mind.

179. marks spews:

@179

A similar mental fuck was the box of broken glass they showed you before slipping the blindfold on. You had to stand up with your bare feet inside the box. Of course, the box of glass was substituted with one full of potato chips, but the sound and feel was quite effective on the victim.

180. yo spews:

gbs ranger cv=61

181. marks spews:

yo,

Was that your ship?

182. marks spews:

If so, remarkably, it was mine, too…

183. yo spews:

GBS
I WAS WITH VAQ-137 AND I GUESS I WAS A SPECIAL CASE WHEN WE CROSSED THE LINE.I CAN STILL REMEMBER THOSE FIRE HOSES.MY ASS WAS RED FOR A WEEK.MITE OF DRANK A BEER TOGETHER IN PERTH OR MOMBASA.FLY NAVY

184. yo spews:

SORRY I SHOULD OF SAID MARKS