Random Observations from Yesterday’s LD Convention

* Thank God I knew some people from Drinking Liberally, or I would have been bored out of my mind. I do appreciate the earnestness of the people there to debate resolutions, but holy shit did we really need to hand count the public financing resolution? I was there with a pregnant woman; standing in a hot sweaty gym for 4 hours was tough for me; I’m sure that extra 20 minutes of standing wasn’t good for her; and hello, the final four started at 3:00.

* Maybe it was a sense memory from being in a high school gym and later a high school auditorium, maybe it was the people I was with, maybe it’s just the events, but I was just asshole comment after asshole comment about the day’s events. It was like Mystery Science Theater 3000 except with politics.

* Sean Astin gave a good Clinton speech, but got cut off before he was done. It was good to hear him praise Obama but still be solidly in the Clinton camp. The first lady stuff, comparing Hillary positively to Abigail Adams and Elenore Roosevelt was marvelous. I feel bad about yelling, “thank you Frodo!” Especially since he didn’t actually play that part: “Rudy, Rudy, Rudy” would have been better.

* A bit better than 3 to 1 for Obama (I forget the actual count and it isn’t on the website yet, sorry if this is off). This seems fairly typical for Seattle.

* The Clinton subcaucus was a hoot. It was amazing to hear from all the people who are still going for her. A lot of great energy even in 30 second chunks. Also: Comfortable chairs in the auditorium.

* I put my name up for the state convention, and was able to keep under the allocated 30 seconds: My real name and number. There are plenty of under 30’s who support Hillary Clinton, and I’m one glad to be one of them. I’m supporting her because we can have a president who’ll work to make universal healthcare in this country and womens’ rights around the world a reality. My name and number.

* Thank Christ for the timekeepers. Molly, you rule! Janis, thank goodness you were there! It could have been a long ass break out session.

* How the hell long does it take to count the votes for delegate? Seriously, I still don’t know if I’m headed to the next level.

Comments

  1. 1

    spews:

    I am opposed to war. I stood in the 45LD caucus to endorse Obama’s plan to withdraw one brigade /month and complete the withdrawal of ALL US troops from Iraq in 16 months.

    I’m sorry but Hillary’s vote for war disqualifies her from running the country. This is not negative politics or a smear. It is basic fundamental policy.

    Those in Congress who vote for aggressive war should be OUT. Voting for war should be a career-ending move. The US has killed too many already. The problem is widely recognized. see the film “Why We Fight”.

  2. 2

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    ” … was there with a pregnant woman; standing in a hot sweaty gym for 4 hours was tough for me …”

    You’re probably too young to remember the state convention in Hoquiam back in the 80s. The platform debates went on all day, and all through the night, and wrapped up something like 6 a.m. the following morning; by then, about 80% of the delegates had left the hall, but I was elected by my precinct caucus and legislative district caucus to represent my precinct and district, and I did, to the very end. That’s the promise you make when you ask people to elect you as their delegate; and it is a promise that must be kept.

  3. 3

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    This must have been your first convention, Carl. Welcome to the club. They’re all like this, except they’re a lot tamer (and shorter) than in the Old Days before we had timekeepers.

    In the Old Days, we practiced town hall democracy, in which any delegate who wanted to express himself/herself on any part, subpart, or sub-subpart of the platform was thought to have an inalienable right to do so for 2 minutes.

  4. 4

    busdrivermike spews:

    Voted for the war, continues to support it through deed. Voted against a resolution to ban cluster bombing civilian populations. That includes women in cities. Actively sought the endorsement of Richard Mellon Scaife. Lied about snipers in Tuzla. Joked about it on the tonight show like she was GW Bush at a press dinner. Uses sexism and racism as a political strategy. 45% of America will never vote for her. No poll has ever shown her to win a majority of independent voters in the general. She was a Republican until she had the democrat fucked into her by Bill Clinton. A political equivalent of the bigger, better, deal.

    Other than that, and about 100 other gaffs, lies, and Republican lite philosophies, she is an excellent example of how to beat the Republicans in November.

    So go ahead, and rearrange those deck chair delegates as the Hilltanic sails into the Obama iceberg. I am going to be happier than Rush Limbaugh to watch the Clinton machine sink to the bottom of the political ocean.

    Good riddance to ex-Republicans who masquerade as liberal Democrats.

  5. 5

    spews:

    Roger @ 3:

    No, I’ve been to other caucuses. None in the 1980’s because I was too young. And living in another state. I think last time was quicker, but it was a different district. And I was sitting.

  6. 6

    DustinJames spews:

    In my LD (43rd) caucus yesterday, Clinton increased by 6% and we were JUST shy of picking up an extra delegate because of 107 no-shows and lack of acceptable alternates, 8 Obama defectors, and Uncommitted coming to Clinton’s camp by 90%-10% after Uncommitted became non-viable.

    Our candidate’s designated speaker (we had 10 people who had prepped speeches including me) gave a 5 minute speech that was full of positives about Clinton, specific actions, policies; with not a single reference to the other side. She was booed several times by the Obama crowd as she talked positively about Clinton.

    Obama’s speaker? Well, no one out of the 600 or so on the Obama side was ready or volunteering. No one wanted to give a speech for Obama. So the vice-chair of the 43rd (forgive me, I don’t remember his name) got up and started speaking off the cuff. For 3.5 minutes of his speech, it was about “hope and change” – very general b.s. that got us this country George Bush (“He’s the kind of guy you’d want to have a beer with!”).

    And then, for the last minute and a half, the tone changed, and he launched into a scathing attack of Hillary Clinton as “the most polarizing figure in the U.S. today.” And he launched into a massive diatribe against her.

    At that point, I lead many other delegates in the Clinton camp to stand and turn our backs for the last 1.5 minutes to show our disgust with a democrat who has voiced no specific reason that he supports his candidate besides generalities (and that his candidate gives him warm fuzzies – that’s a reason to vote for the guy?). And we finished his speech by standing and keeping our backs turned to him for the remainder of the speech.

    We got 7 of those 8 defectors in the gymnasium THAT day because of the vitriol that the Obama supporters had spewed. The 7 had said that they realized, being in the stands, that they were on the wrong side. They didn’t want to be associated with a candidate who’s supporters did those sorts of things. They were offended by the 43rd district’s vice-chair’s speech and the booing that their previous fellow supporters had done during the Hillary speech.

    In addition to many Hillary supporters , I got 2 people from the Obama camp who stayed there, but came up and told me thank you for leading the stand up and turn around and expressing the rejection of the democrat tearing democrat tear-down that has gone on in our party. I got both of their 10 pack of nomination slips. Yep – even though choosing to stay with their candidate, they wanted to thank me by making sure I was nominated as a Hillary supporter by each giving me all 10 of their nomination slips.

    9 Hours in total, and I’m going to Congressional Districts and State has a delegate for Clinton.

  7. 7

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    Carl wrote-

    we can have a president who’ll work to make universal healthcare in this country and womens’ rights around the world a reality.

      
    Why should the United States make women’s rights a priority around the world? Who made us the deciders?
    After 7 years of bush isn’t it time for the US to get out of the business of sovereign nations?
      
    Let’s first focus on the sexism and racism being brutally exposed in this democratic nomination process. Which half of the democrat party are you, the racist half or the sexist half? What can the government do to help bridge the gap in the democrat party? Should the government do something or is it up to the individuals to overcome their racist and sexist views? How could the government help the democrats overcome their views? A Democratic Racism and Sexism Tax?

  8. 8

    DustinJames spews:

    @ 1 – you must not have read that Obama’s top military adviser is now advocating keeping 80,000 troops in Iraq until at least 2010?

    It’s in the NY Sun.

  9. 9

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    I agree Marvin if someone had done more to keep women down then maybe your mother wouldn’t have unleashed you on the universe and we’d all be better off.

  10. 10

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    A vigorous competition for the nomination is healthy for the party and our chances in November; a hatefest between the Obama and Clinton camps will be destructive and hand the White House to another wingnut warmonger who pisses on the working classes.

    Before anyone gets too carried away, I suggest reading this article: http://www.newsweek.com/id/130478

  11. 11

    Mark The Redneck-Patriot spews:

    Hey Carl – Why the fuck do I have to pay your medical bills through Hillary’s “universal care” program. Make the moral case you lazy asshole.

    Why the fuck don’t you step up and pay your own fucking bills. I’m tired of carrying you freeloading greedy bastards on my back.

    Leave me and my wallet the fuck alone.

  12. 12

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @7 So you wingnuts didn’t go into Iraq to secure human rights and freedoms for Iraqi citizens after all, even though that was the excuse you used? C’mon, admit it, this was about stealing their oil wasn’t it? Or maybe not, maybe what our troops really are dying for is the profitmaking opportunities the war created for the GOP’s pet contractors.

  13. 13

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @11 Why don’t you step up and pay your own bills, you fucking welsher? Your $100 debt to Goldy is now more than 2 years past due. Pay up, deadbeat!!!

  14. 14

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    #6 DustinJames says:

    …he launched into a scathing attack of Hillary Clinton as “the most polarizing figure in the U.S. today.” And he launched into a massive diatribe against her.

      
    Sounds fair doesn’t it? Back before the nomination process began bush was the most polarizing figure in the U.S. Everyone trashed him and hated him. Since Hillary has taken the honor from bush why shouldn’t the democrats hate and trash her like they do their other enemies (republicans).
      
    The democrats have once again demonstrated an ability to hate that is hard to believe. And this time it’s against their own.

  15. 15

    DustinJames spews:

    Obama:

    Voted against capping credit card interest rates. Wants to keep in policies that allow Adjustable Rate Mortgages into oblivion (remember 1985 and how many people were being foreclosed on because of this same issue?). Does not support an immediate 3-month moratorium on housing foreclosures. Actively sought the endorsement of Bob Casey – an anti-abortion DINO (shudder). Questionable at best about his anti-abortion stances (Did not vote for 5 abortion bills as a state senator). Lied about not knowing his Reverend was a black supremacist racist who was very controversial. Tried to make that up by delivering a speech to an audience of 200 hand-picked supporters ONLY and following up on that speech on radio interviews that threw white people under the bus. Executes the race card any time he can get and then blames the opposite side as a political strategy. 28% of Democrats currently say they won’t vote for him and will vote for McCain instead. Nearly every poll shown show he’s lost a lot of the independent and republican support he once enjoyed pre-Wright (and he’s not getting that back). He praises people like Ronald Reagan and says he wants to model his administration like his, and also says he wants to get his foreign policy back to the ‘great’ presidents who lead in this area like ‘Ronald Reagan’ (Iran Contra anyone?), ‘John F Kennedy’ (widely regarded as a good President but very poor on Foreign Policy – Bay of Pigs anyone?), and George Bush (Maybe he’ll find a Japanese lap to puke on).

    With a democrat like that, who the fuck needs Republicans?

  16. 16

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @11 P.S., what makes you think you aren’t already paying the medical bills of those unable to pay? Are the medical providers losing money? Are hospital CEOs working for $1 a year like Lee Iaccoca? Or do you suppose that maybe, just maybe, the hundreds of billions in bad medical debt are being passed through to the paying customers?

    As for me, I’d rather take the 25% of healthcare dollars currently going to insurance companies and producing absolutely nothing except fat CEO salaries and insurance profits, and use that money to provide universal care — if for no other reason, because if that money is redirected to the actual provision of healthcare, we’ll all end up spending less on our own healthcare.

  17. 17

    Mark The Redneck-Rabbit spews:

    Hey Rabbit – I gave you an assignment months ago. It’s time for a report.

    I told you to go to your neighbors and ask them to give you money so health care is “Free” to you. I want to know how many of them gave you money. What’s the answer?

    And if they didn’t give it to you voluntarily, is that why you’re resorting to having the gummint do it at the point of a gun?

    Pay your own fucking bills you fucking loser.

  18. 18

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    MTR is also too stupid to realize that with 17% of the population running around without basic medical care, he’s more likely to get sick himself from being exposed to people with untreated illnesses.

    The mentality of people like MTR works something like this. Nobody should be immunized against polio or TB unless they can afford the vaccines, and if that results in polio or TB epidemics, that’s the necessary price society must pay to protect ideological purity. Besides, if you get polio or TB from someone who wasn’t vaccinated because we now live in a third world country, you’re an evil and immoral person because God would have protected you if you were righteous.

    Great Mother Rabbit Spirit, please save us from these fucking retards by hitting them with lightning bolts as soon as possible. If that’s not possible, can we at least speed up the Rapture? It’s already overdue.

  19. 19

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    #9 ByeByeGOP says:

    I agree Marvin if someone had done more to keep women down then maybe your mother wouldn’t have unleashed you on the universe and we’d all be better off.

      
    Strange you should say that. My mother told me many times that I wasn’t wanted. She told me she even tried to beat herself hard enough to cause a miscarriage. Should I have been conceived today, no doubt that I would be flushed down the drain. So I could see why in your ideal view of the world I wouldn’t be here.

  20. 20

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    Wow, I acted like a democrat. (#19)
    Lied, and used myself as a child to make others feel guilty.

  21. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @17 Go write your own fucking report. I don’t work for you. In fact, I don’t work for anyone! Why should I work, when I can get paid better and pay lower taxes by being a Capitalist? I made $2,700 in the stock market this week without lifting a paw or producing a goddamn thing! I hope that makes you happy. Meanwhile, you can kiss my bunny ass. Pay your gambling debt, you dishonorable thieving lying bet welsher!

  22. 23

    busdrivermike spews:

    #11

    Mark the dumb ass redneck:

    You already pay for other peoples illnesses through you health plan.

    The difference is you pay more dollars for less health care through the American system. This is a…and I know this is a painful word for you… “fact”. There is no scientific study that says Americans pay less for medical care, and get more. Every rate of preventable disease is higher here than in any other industrialized society. Plus, you get to subsidize the profit of private health care companies, more so now that the Republcan reich passed that huge giveaway to the private health care system in 2005.

    So, yes, feel good about yourself, while your arguments screw your own pocketbook. I am sure that feels good to dumb asses everywhere.

  23. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Marvin, if your mother tried to abort you by punching herself in the stomach, then it’s safe to say she probably didn’t leave you a tax-free $2 million trust fund in her will, either. It follows that you are inherently inferior to people like Katherine Harris and George W. Bush, both of whom became millionaires by being born. According to the thinking of people like our good friend Mark the Lying Welshing Redneck, if you’re poor it’s because you’re immoral! And if you have to work for a living, you’re poor (and therefore immoral) by definition, because under our system you can’t become rich by working — and even if you could, our tax system would make sure you can’t save enough of your wages to accumulate a meaningful amount of wealth. Because you were unlucky in birth, your only other option for escaping the immorality of poverty was to marry for money like John McCain and Stefan Sharansky did. Both of these guys are shameless gigolos living on their wives’ money. You can, too! All you have to do is find some rich Republican bitch who’s man-hungry enough to settle for YOU!!! And after you knock her up and catch her beating on HER stomach, just look the other way, Marvin, just look the other way …

  24. 25

    busdrivermike spews:

    Hey Dustaroo:

    Your candidate is: Dust-a-Roohoooo!

    Stop splitting the party, your candidate has lost, and she should take it like a man!

    Now iron my shirt, loser!

  25. 26

    westello spews:

    I was at the 43rd Dems yesterday. I missed the Obama/Clinton speeches because I spent two hours waiting to see if I, as an alternate, would become a delegate (and I did). But I stayed for another 4 hours to listen to every Obama delegate who wanted to continue on give a 30-second speech. Not one person, not one, wasted any time on Hillary Clinton. We brought in 2 Clinton defectors and at least one undecided.

  26. 27

    DustinJames spews:

    @25:

    Really?

    In February, Obama lead Clinton by a 60-40 margin in Indiana. Today? It’s 53-42 Clinton. Clinton will carry Pennsylvania a 15% margin. Shall we talk West Virginia and Kentucky by such large margins that Obama may not get 30% of the vote there? Would you like me to go to Puerto Rico where it may be the biggest blowout even beyond Arkansas for Clinton?

    Obama’s biggest hopes ride on North Carolina and Oregon (and to a lesser extent South Dakota and Montana which have 8 delegates states a piece)

    She’s going to come out +50 in pledged delegates in the next round of voting through the end of June.

    Eilen MacColl, democratic Vice-Chair and Super Delegate, also gave a speech to the entire audience before the candidate speeches began – saying that her top priorities were a health care plan that truly covered everyone, and a candidate who laid out an economic plan that was specific and really able to solve this countries problems. She spoke out on the glass ceiling that she as a woman faced, and how getting women elected to office faced a real challenge in the electorate.

    She’s officially unpledged and uncommitted, but her speech couldn’t have been more spot on and nearly matched word for word the Hillary Clinton platform.

    The race ain’t over til the fat lady Oprah sings.

  27. 28

    Mark The Redneck-Patriot spews:

    Mike – I know it’s difficult for you… but try not to be a dumshit.

    We have the finest health care system in the world. Better than Cuba. Better than France. Better than Canada. Part of the confiscatory compensation package that I demand from my employer is that he pay for my health insurance. He’s more than happy to do so in order to get my services. If you fucking losers had any marketable skills, you could do the same.

    We can’t let you freeloaders fuck up our health care system. Lives are at stake. It’s fine just the way it is for those of us who pay the country’s bills.

    For you freeloaders, I can imagine that it does sorta suck. But the answer isn’t forcing me to pay your fucking bills. The answer is for you to get off your ass, get some marketable skills, and go out there and pay your own fucking bills.

    Geez, is it that fucking hard to understand?

  28. 29

    spews:

    Carl ..

    Comparing Hiollary to Abigail? Eleanor?

    Abigail … start with her husband’s presidential crear. You like the alien and sedition acts? Abigail was agrat wife but I don’t know why you would thenk she could be a Presiedent.

    Eleanor .. no doubt a great leader. BUT, she hsoed an idealism and courage that really do not descriube HRC.
    Exactly whgat issues does HRC really stand for?

    Worse yet, HRC has still jto addressed the necessity of a separation of her white ouse form the Clinton Foundation. This is a huge issuye … do you eally want Bill’s cronies running her government?

    As for woman’s issue world wide, I cal hype, hype! Clinton has had mjany years in the puboic view .. errr ahh what has she done about any of this?

  29. 30

    spews:

    Dustin, Shame that you need to lie to make Hillary’s case. Obama never lead 60-40 in Indiana. The best numbers he had were 40-25. From there you use unfounded speculation to get Hillary to a +50 number. If that is based on NET gain that would be from either an absence of math skills on your part or just another lie. If it is plus 50 from just those contests you are supporting a candidate who still fails to be the leader in delegates.

    Why not just keep it to the simple truth and facts?

    Yes Hillary is stronger in most of the states that are left. Without blowouts in every state though she can’t be the leader in elected delegates, and oddly you ignore the fact that she might not break viability in Idaho, which would be a NET +6. There are also additional rounds in IO and NV where earlier rounds had her losing delegates.

    At the 5th LD I was rather ashamed of the Clinton supporters. One they didn’t have a local speak in her favor, but a professor from New York city. I’m wondering what he knows about the local issues here, what he knows about the latte drinking, Prius driving rich caucusers who don’t need a President. Hillary supporters also tried to issue a challenge in saying that since credentialling took so long that resulted in a rules violation and NO other people should be allowed in the room. Lastly, 5th District Clinton supporters booed the Obama surrogate. Pure class. Clinton Democrats in the 5th had no local who was able to speak, wished to disenfranchise hundreds and shouted down a recognized surrogate.

    Lastly, I want to know why the Party still hasn’t put the results up on their website. The numbers might have changed, and the entire nation deserves to know.

  30. 31

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    Here we go again – republicans are against public health care for the babies they so loudly proclaim that they don’t want to be aborted – so much so that they’ll spend 10 times as much to prevent the abortion as they would to just help the kid get decent health care once born. You have to admire the GOP ability to completely act in a 100% intellectually dishonest way at all times.

  31. 32

    DustinJames spews:

    @30 – Ok, let’s juse use your numbers as opposed to mine. So he blew a 15% lead instead of a 20% lead.

    Go Obama! *rolls eyes*

  32. 33

    DustinJames spews:

    Also @ 30 – I heard, but I don’t know for sure, that Clark County is doing their LD’s next weekend, so it may be that they aren’t putting them up as to not influence the rest of the state? It’s only a guess, I don’t know.

  33. 34

    spews:

    To DustinJames (comment #6) —

    You clearly do not live in Washington’s 43rd District. Because in the actual 43rd, Obama earned one more delegate than had been expected based on the precinct results, 53-14 instead of 52-15.

    Clinton came into the LD caucus with 293 precinct delegates, but after no-shows, non-viables, and switches were accounted for, the count that went into the allocation of CD delegates was 270. My recollection is that Obama came in with 1056 from the precincts and had 1020 in the final tally. Which translates to Clinton holding 92.2% of her original count, but Obama retaining 96.6%.

    Other things telling me that you aren’t talking about the 43rd —

    Obama’s speaker? Well, no one out of the 600 or so on the Obama side was ready or volunteering. No one wanted to give a speech for Obama. So the vice-chair of the 43rd (forgive me, I don’t remember his name) got up and started speaking off the cuff.

    I wasn’t in the auditorium for the official caucus, but I’m absolutely certain that at least one of the 400 Obama people who ran for CD delegate slots was prepared to speak on Obama’s behalf. There were about 1000 Obama delegates. Of the three male Vice Chairs in the 43rd, one is a leading Clinton backer, one was the caucus organizer who (like me) was doing admin stuff the whole time, and the third may not even have been there.

    At that point, I lead many other delegates in the Clinton camp to stand and turn our backs for the last 1.5 minutes to show our disgust with a democrat who has voiced no specific reason that he supports his candidate besides generalities (and that his candidate gives him warm fuzzies – that’s a reason to vote for the guy?). And we finished his speech by standing and keeping our backs turned to him for the remainder of the speech.

    Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. The LD caucus in the 43rd was respectful, congenial, and pleasant. If there was any discordant note, it’s possible that Sean Astin (why was he up here anyway?) repeated the “Barack Hussein Obama” note he used over at the 36th. Otherwise, no one on any side was anything but strongly behind the Democratic Party and its eventual nominee.

    9 Hours in total,

    Well, I’ll admit that I didn’t stay around to the end, but the Obama group had worked through almost the entire alphabet of delegate-candidate speakers when I left at 3:30. I’d guess it ended around 4:30, making the caucus a 6.5 hour event.

    and I’m going to Congressional Districts and State has a delegate for Clinton.

    I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. I must assume that you don’t use your real name here in HA’s comment threads. There was no one with a name in any way resembling “Dustin James” on the 43rd District’s Clinton ballot. I know that because I collected the candidate names and prepared the ballots.

  34. 35

    eponymous coward spews:

    Well, Dustin, at MY LD caucus (the 48th, the 8th CD side), the speeches by both sides were pretty level (the Clinton speaker made some small digs at Obama about “we can’t have any surprises”, but all in all, pretty positive)… and Obama picked up a delegate to state, with the split starting at 18-8 and going to 19-7 after the 15 minute period.

    Hurrah for arguing by anecdote!

    As for “With a democrat like that, who the fuck needs Republicans”- remind me, which candidate said John “Sure, let’s stay in Iraq 100 years” McCain has reached a threshold? Which one of them is trying to spin away the cheerleading they did for the Iraq war in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006?

    Yeah, I thought so.

    I don’t mind Clinton supporters who make an HONEST case for their candidate (and there is one for Clinton over Obama, I just don’t happen to agree with it, or think you’re making it when you rip Obama as Republican-lite), but at least pretend to be intellectually honest- you’re supporting a candidate who kowtowed to the Republican war orgies post-9/11 because of naked political calculation, as many elected Democrats did.

    If we were discussing, say, Russ Feingold or Nancy Pelosi, THEN I might buy your argument that we have someone with more presitge in standing up to Republicans on the national stage. But Hillary Clinton? Nope, not going to wash. You’re not from MiniTrue, and you can’t rewrite history.

  35. 36

    DustinJames spews:

    @ 34- Ugh, dyslexia strikes again, I meant to say I’m from the 34th. West Seattle / White center.

  36. 38

    spews:

    Dustin, Clark County is coming next weekend, it was pushed back due to chaos that broke out when the Clinton supporting County chair allowed alternates and others into the original County convention without allowing guarunteeing space for actual delegates.

    So it had to be rerun, and by people who knew what they were doing.

    As for the 15% “lead” in Indiana, you do realize that the original poll had an Undecided + Others of 35%, it was a meaningless poll, but it was the closest to making you accurate. All polls within a reasonable time and with a reasonable MOE have had Clinton leading.

  37. 41

    DustinJames spews:

    @39 – Mark Penn is the reason we got our asses handed to us during the rest of Feb.

    Ickes has been salvation.

    I’m glad Penn is gone.

  38. 42

    DustinJames spews:

    @38 – Ah yes, polls are meaningless when they show your candidate losing, but when they show your candidate winning, Rah rah rah!

    *yawn*. That argument is old.

  39. 43

    spews:

    Polls that have a greater number of people supporting “Other” than either of the only two candidates on the ballot are meaningless. That will be true regardless of who those candidates are.

  40. 44

    DustinJames spews:

    @35:

    I enjoy the word kowtow.

    Let’s talk about that:

    Fact: Obama has voted for every war bill that Clinton has since both being in the Senate. So is he kowtowing as well?

    Fact: Obama and Clinton both didn’t vote on the FISA bill. So is he kowtowing on that as well?

    Perception: When Obama votes with Republicans, he gets a pass and actually cheerleaders who say “look at that, he’s bi-partisan, a leader who can work with both sides. When he’s president, he’s going to get bi-partisan support on all his bills because he’ll know how to work with them. And congress will reach across, arm and arm, and sing kumbayah.” When Clinton votes with Republicans, she gets screamed at and people say “look at that, she’s triangualting with Republicans, and she’s really just a republican in democrat’s clothing. And if she’s president, she will do nothing but advance republican agenda after republican agenda.’

  41. 45

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @27 Why the hell are you supporting Hillary? Aren’t you supposed to be practicing your goosestepping?

  42. 46

    spews:

    Dustin, what bills in which Obama voted with Republicans do you think were bad bills? The Ethics Reform bill that Hillary voted against? It wasn’t perfect, but in her six years of greater US Senate experience she didn’t even think that Congressional Ethics needed to be reformed, and when it got proposed by the opposition party she supported Harry Reid on the Party over the people of America.

  43. 47

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    When you see the goosesteppers lining up behind a Clinton, some kind of funny business is going on! This should be investigated.

  44. 48

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @28 “We have the finest health care system in the world.”

    HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

  45. 49

    spews:

    More for DustinJames–

    You’re full of shit.

    According to the 34th District LD Caucus Report, Obama’s delegate count in the WA-07 portion of the 34th was unchanged from the preliminary count. Between the two counts, Clinton gained three precinct delegates while Obama added five, maintaining the 35-12 distribution.

    Meanwhile, in the WA-08 portion of the 34th, two precinct delegates switched from Clinton to Obama, changing the CD delegate count from 2-2 to 3-1 for Obama. Overall, the 34th went 38-13, giving Obama one more delegate than at the preliminary count.

    Based on the precinct results shown on the , had all of the precinct delegates shown up yesterday, the expected outcome would have been 36-15. So Obama actually raised his totals in the 34th by a greater number in the 34th than in the 36th or the 43rd. Way to go, Obama people in the 34th!!!

    DustinJames, you are truly full of shit for posting these misrepresentations.

  46. 51

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Personally, I find it embarrassing that I voted for the same candidate our wingnut trolls are now cheerleading for. I have no idea how the hell that happened! The only explanation I can think of is they’re even more fucking nuts than previously believed. If this continues, I’ll have no choice but to hope Obama wins.

  47. 52

    DustinJames spews:

    @46 – I’ll have to go look at his Senate list, I’m not sure. I was using that ‘perception’ argument because that’s all I hear about Clinton and Obama. When she worked with Graham on military health care, for instance, is something that is often pointed out to me as ‘triangulation’. What? Working on military health care with someone across the aisle is triangulation?

    They also love to point out this article as further evidence – http://www.time.com/time/magaz.....84,00.html

    *gasp*, a republican says some nice things about a democrat.

    So let me pour over his voting record, because I don’t know of any off the top of my head, of course, I’m not the one saying the things I fired off in my ‘perception’, it’s what’s fed to me by my friends on the other side of the democrat aisle.

  48. 53

    DustinJames spews:

    @ 49 – those aren’t the same announcments they gave to the caucus – there were gasps from the Obama crowd when they read off the results.

    So maybe the guy who read them off was wrong, or they recalculated and had different facts to publish.

    I’m just going off what we were told in the caucus yesterday.

  49. 55

    spews:

    Bullshit again, DustinJames. Unless you’re implying that the number of Obama and Clinton delegates elected at your caucus is different from the numbers in their report.

    So tell me, how many Clinton delegates and alternates did you elect in WA-07 yesterday? If it was 6 male and 6 female delegates, 3 male and 3 female alternates, then the 34th’s report is right. And if it was 6-6/3-3, then all that crowing about your ability to pull in so many Uncommitteds and Obama people is just a warm pile of crapola.

    I have information from another 34th person who, shall we say, doesn’t recall it the same way you do. She didn’t see anyone standing in protest of Tim Nuss (though she did suggest that perhaps he needn’t have reminded the assemblage about how polarizing the Clinton campaign has become).

  50. 56

    spews:

    Sorry, Carl…

    * How the hell long does it take to count the votes for delegate? Seriously, I still don’t know if I’m headed to the next level.

    Your answer is here. (I knew about it a few minutes before it was posted.)

  51. 57

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    48

    Anyone who believes health care is better outside the US should move. Of course what do you expect from a guvmint leech. They’re the ones that fuck everything up.

  52. 59

    McCain/Crist '08! spews:

    Oh Dustin, you know that SLOG is The Stranger’s blog. Come off it! Your posting @ 6 appears in their blog (http://slog.thestranger.com/20.....de#c991119). You really are full of shit. And the fact that you’re one of the few on here advocating for your candidate is sad. I’m willing to bet that you’re even a closeted racist.

  53. 61

    busdrivermike spews:

    From the World Health Organization:

    “The U.S. health system spends a higher portion of its gross domestic product than any other country but ranks 37 out of 191 countries according to its performance, the report finds. The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th . Several small countries – San Marino, Andorra, Malta and Singapore are rated close behind second- placed Italy.”

    But hey!

    Lets not let FUCKING FACTS GET IN THE WAY OF ASSHOLE REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTS.

    As you were saying, Mark, the redneck “I got mine so fuck you” asshole?

  54. 63

    busdrivermike spews:

    #52

    “They also love to point out this article as further evidence – http://www.time.com/time/magaz ine/article/0,9171,1187184,00. html

    *gasp*, a republican says some nice things about a democrat.”

    OH DUSTAROOPY with stats so LOOPY:

    From my perspective, and a majority of Democratic caucus voters here in WA state, Hillary “cluster bombing civilian populations is ok by me” Clinton is a moderate Republican who is adored by moderate Republicans like Lindsay “torture is ok by me” Graham.

  55. 65

    busdrivermike spews:

    Oh Dustaroo!

    There is a job opening which, based on the previous occupant, might suit you perfectly:

    From the AP:

    Mark Penn, the pollster and senior strategist for Hillary Rodham Clinton’s presidential bid, left the campaign Sunday after it was disclosed he met with representatives of the Colombian government to help promote a free trade agreement Clinton opposes

    OOPSIE! Somebody strangulated on their triangulation!

    HAHAHAHA!!!!

  56. 66

    busdrivermike spews:

    Oh, and it looks like somebody(HRC) MIS-SPEECHED again:

    From the NYT:

    “Over the last five weeks, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has featured in her campaign stump speeches the story of a health care horror: an uninsured pregnant woman who lost her baby and died herself after being denied care by an Ohio hospital because she could not come up with a $100 fee.

    The woman, Trina Bachtel, did die last August, two weeks after her baby boy was stillborn at O’Bleness Memorial Hospital in Athens, Ohio. But hospital administrators said Friday that Ms. Bachtel was under the care of an obstetrics practice affiliated with the hospital, that she was never refused treatment and that she was, in fact, insured.

    “We implore the Clinton campaign to immediately desist from repeating this story,” said Rick Castrop, chief executive officer of the O’Bleness Health System.

    Linda M. Weiss, a spokeswoman for the not-for-profit hospital, said the Clinton campaign had never contacted the hospital to check the accuracy of the story”

    Which is larger, the amount of the national debt, or the amount of times HRC has lied her ass off in this campaign?

    Path-O-fucking-logical.

  57. 67

    DustinJames spews:

    @55 – There *WAS* confusion about what they said – it’s on some of the comments for the West Seattle blog too.

    http://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=6722

    Just because someone goofed up the delivery report doesn’t mean that there was any maliciousness intended. And even still, if delegates changed, that doesn’t mean the number of LD delegates would have changed. Which is why i said we were just shy of getting one more delegate. aka LD Delegate.

    Shoot the guy who mis-read the paper, not me.

  58. 68

    Denise spews:

    Where can I find the 32nd LD Clinton delegates going on to state convention? I can’t find the names on the 32 LD website, but maybe I am not looking in the right place?

  59. 69

    DustinJames spews:

    @59 – first time I’ve ever been over there. And if you read his quote – the person posting is QUOTING from my original post up there at #6.

  60. 70

    DustinJames spews:

    @66:

    She didn’t name the person or the hospital

    “Senator Clinton does not name Ms. Bachtel or the hospital in her speeches”

    You would have to wonder why the hospital would want to inject themselves into the political process.

    “The sheriff’s deputy, Bryan Holman, had played host to Mrs. Clinton in his home before the Ohio primary. Deputy Holman said in a telephone interview that a conversation about health care led him to relate the story. He never mentioned the name of the hospital because he did not know it, he said.”

    But you have to wonder why the hospital would inject itself and turn this woman into a political football , I have heard Clinton relay the story and she never mentions the lady or the hospital.

    Of course, let’s immediately jump on the side of that Hospital. Because hospital abuse and denial stories aren’t like, commonplace or anything.

    Oh wait, here’s another one!

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me- dumping16nov16,0,3911487.story?page=1

  61. 71

    DustinJames spews:

    @65 – for most of us supporters, we couldn’t be happier that Penn is gone. We view Penn as the reason she did so poorly after February. Ickes is the man with the turnaround plan.

  62. 72

    ByeByeGOP spews:

    I attended an Obama fund raiser in San Francisco today. I even got to speak to the Senator. I was glad to find out he’s willing to fight the kind of swiftboating that beat us last time. The go along get along Dems who would let the right fuck them in the ass and say thank you should know Obama won’t cave in like you folk. That makes me like him even more. I was worried that he was too interested in cooperating with the traitors on the right. Rest assured, he’ll fight them when he needs to! YEAH!

  63. 73

    spews:

    Mark @11

    I am guessing based on the tone of your previous comments that you aren’t very open to considering new ideas, but here goes.

    You are currently paying for other people’s health care as it is. When a sick or dying person shows up in the emergency room, they receive health care, regardless of insurance (if you wish to argue that we should just let them die, please “make the moral case”). It is often the case for those who do not have insurance that had they visited the hospital earlier, their disease could have very easily and cheaply been cured, however, they are forced to wait because they had no insurance until they are on the verge of death. That expensive health care they are now getting – you are paying for it through higher rates.

    Universal health care would offer solve this problem by offering preventive treatment to everyone in the US, and in doing so, lower rates (there are numerous other reasons rates would fall, rake through the academic studies if you don’t believe me). So while it is true that you will be paying for Carl’s, mike’s, and my health care, you will be paying less than you would be if you were merely paying for your own. Think about it this way: if you walked into a pizza shop, and the guy said, you can have a large for $11, or you can pay $10, get your large, and everyone in line behind you will also get a pizza, which would you do?

  64. 74

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18 th .

    Tell that to the poor chap waiting for an organ transplant you moron.

  65. 75

    Jane Balough's Dog spews:

    World health organization is just another inept component of the useless UN. Only moonbats take them seriously. roof roof

  66. 76

    spews:

    Jane’s inane canine (first quoting busdrivermike, then demonstrating that inanity):

    The United Kingdom, which spends just six percent of GDP on health services, ranks 18th.

    Tell that to the poor chap waiting for an organ transplant you moron.

    Typical wingnut, running off at the (frothing) mouth instead of using actual data. Me, I prefer facts.

    Here are some recent UK transplant waiting times (in days):

    Kidney = 841 for adults, 164 for children
    Heart = 103 for adults, 143 for children
    Lung = 406 for adults
    Liver = 95 for adults, 76 for children
    Pancreas and kidney = 265 for adults

    I can’t find precisely equivalent data for the United States. On this webpage, showing all ages combined, the key value is “Median TT (Days)”. For the same organs shown above, here’s what we find for the most recent year displayed:

    Kidney = 1136
    Heart = 130
    Lung = 202 (very odd … 2 years earlier, the median was 932)
    Liver = 321
    Pancreas and kidney = 428

    Now, you dummy, you were saying…???

  67. 77

    proud leftist spews:

    DustinJames
    Whoring for McCain ain’t pretty. Once you have dimples in your legs, nobody wants to buy you. Go away. You can probably find Republicans to pay for your tricks. If Hillary supporters are as deceitful as you, then all the more reason not to vote for her. I believe, though, that you like old JohnBoy. No true Democrat would talk like you.

  68. 78

    busdrivermike spews:

    #71

    So we agree that we both could not be happier that HRC’s campaign has been circling the bowl for 10 weeks now, and is DOA.

    Glad to see that you have seen the light Dustaroo.

    Hey, now that you have jettisoned your HRC fantasy, could you start posting like your aren’t trying to split the party? Could you please get on the Obama bandwagon, and start trying to elect a Democrat president?

  69. 79

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @58 Just what this blog doesn’t need — another lying wingnut pretending to be a Democrat.

  70. 81

    busdrivermike spews:

    While I am on the subject, could the rest of you Clinton fantasists do a little math? It is not algebraic geometry. Clinton does not have the delegates or the votes or the momentum. She is done. It is simple math. Supporting her nomination is the same as weakening the party. She had her chance, she blew it.

    Mark Penn is just the latest shark to jump. Some of you need to get a grip on reality, and realize that I was right ten weeks ago when I told you she was done, and all she could do is destroy Mr. Obama’s chances of getting the presidency.

    And by the way, here is another prediction. Obama will win PA. The polls show the same trend line that is always seen before Obama wins a state. How many times do you HRC supporters have to see the same thing before you realize it is over?

    At a certain point, a point which smart people would realize has already passed, you would say to yourself “Self, am I hurting the party’s chances of winning in November by supporting Hillary’s egotistical campaign of destruction?”

    That answer was yes ten weeks ago. Now, you have nobody to blame but yourself if John McCain puts his hand on the Bible next January, and lies his ass off about defending the Constitution.

  71. 82

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @73 Actually, the impact on us paying customers is greater than simply footing the bills of the uninsured. When YOU go to an emergency room, YOU may have to wait hours to get attended to, because of the long line of uninsureds in front of you. That happened to me a few years ago when I accidentally got some superglue in my eye. I waited in the lobby for over an hour, then waited another 2 hours in an examining room, before anyone even looked at my eye. Apart from the intense pain the chemicals caused, I was lucky not to lose my sight in that eye because of the delay in medical attention. As long as we keep our current unacceptable system, our wingnut friends had better hope they don’t have a heart attack in an ER.

  72. 83

    busdrivermike spews:

    #70

    As usual, it is always somebody else’s fault when the Hiltanic mis-speeches. But I am sure the “man with the plan” Ickes will turn that around too.

  73. 84

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @74 It can’t be any worse than trying to get an organ transplant here, and probably is a whole lot better. Just try asking your insurance company to pay for an organ transplant and see what happens.

  74. 85

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @75 Typical wingnut drivel. When Stupid Dog gets shot down by FACTS, he’s reduced to humping a fire hydrant.

  75. 86

    proud leftist spews:

    85
    That is a sad image. I can understand a dog peeing on a hydrant, but humping the hydrant just ain’t pretty. I suppose, though, that Republicans have few choices nowadays. The only option they have for humping is something inanimate, something that doesn’t slap and say no.

  76. 87

    busdrivermike spews:

    #75

    Is that why so many Republicans have yellow bellies? Is it the paint rub? I thought it was because they didn’t have the political courage of their convictions to call a draft, or end the war. Instead, we are doomed to another quagmire because we do not have the manpower in the field, or the political courage in the White House.

  77. 89

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @81 BDM, is it possible for you to promote your candidate without attacking people who, for whatever reason, support the other Democratic candidate?

    I certainly didn’t like Clinton’s Iraq votes. There also are other things I don’t like, such as her reliance on Wall Street fatcats for campaign funding. But in my thinking, there were good reasons to vote for her anyway. For example, Obama has made reaching across the aisle and working with Republicans a centerpiece of his campaign, and I think he’s being foolishly naive. They won’t work with him, they’ll eat him for breakfast. As Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-MO) pointed out in this week’s Newsweek, Clinton by contrast offers “tenacity in dealing with some very weighty issues. … [She], in the face of Herculean opposition, worked on health care at a time when most people were afraid to talk about it publicly.” I voted for Hillary Clinton in my precinct caucus largely because I think she’s more likely to get things done. The country has too many pressing problems to wait several years for Obama’s learning curve to catch up with the realities of GOP obstructionism. He’s delusional if he thinks Republicans won’t try to sabotage his administration. They’ll go after him with the same meataxe they’ll use on any Democratic president.

    I want a Democrat to win in November as much as anyone else. I read the same news reports you do. I agree that Clinton’s campaign is in trouble and she’s now a longshot to win the nomination. You can make a case that she blew her opportunity. Even Rep. Cleaver, a Clinton friend and supporter, acknowledges that “few avenues lead to the nomination … unless we pitch a perfect game …” in the remaining contests.

    But Clinton is entitled to have the decision made by counting the delegate votes, and she’s entitled to compete for delegate votes as long as there are still primaries and caucuses outstanding. You’re asking her to quit in the eighth inning of a 9-inning game, and she doesn’t have to do that.

    It’s not reasonable to expect her to drop out of an extremely close nomination fight before the race is over. Doing so would betray the campaign volunteers, contributors, and supporters who have invested much in her candidacy. You’re asking her to do exactly what many of us criticized Gore and Kerry for doing: Quit before the game is over. She shouldn’t, she won’t, and you and other Obama supporters shouldn’t ask. Obama, himself, expressed himself to the contrary: He said just last week she should stay in. His reasoning is right on this.

    As for where I’m at, I voted, and I won’t be casting any further votes as I’m not a delegate this year. (I was very ill at the time of the precinct caucus, and stayed only long enough to sign in and denote my presidential preference, which took about 5 minutes, then I hopped back to my burrow and resumed the bed rest that has been going on for 8 weeks now — and I’m still not recovered.) So, what I think of Clinton or Obama at this point is immaterial. All I need to say on this point is that I’m dismayed by the talk of some Democrats who are indicating they won’t support the party’s candidate if their candidate isn’t chosen. That plays right into the hands of the corrupt Republican warmongers who will continue looting America and ripping off the working class if they get another 4 years in power. To me, it’s unconscienable to even entertain the idea of not supporting the Democratic nominee in November, no matter who it is. I think it’s likely going to be Sen. Obama and I won’t have any problem voting for him, in fact I look forward to it. I would hope that if Obama stumbles and Clinton becomes the nominee, the attitude of his supporters will be exactly the same. The only way we can stop the Republicans is to stick together despite our internal differences.

  78. 91

    busdrivermike spews:

    I am sorry Roger, but you are so wrong. Hillary Clinton cannot win the presidency at this point. She would be seen as having won unfairly. She would alienate the black vote. Most independents would go with McCain. The party would split.

    That said, she will run as long as her enablers let her, and every moment she is in the race, she will sap strength from the inevitable candidate, Barack Obama.

    And I do not think it is unconscionable to not vote for Hillary Clinton. She voted for the war, and will continue it, no matter what she says. Because you cannot believe what she says, she lies so often, and so brazenly.

    I will not put my mark on that war. I will not vote for Hillary or McCain. You can count me out of putting my mark on that butchers bill.

  79. 92

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @91 Let’s make a distinction here: Those are your opinions, not facts.

    Unlike you, I’m not a single-issue voter. I look at the big picture. Electing Obama president will avail you nothing if he turns out to be ineffective. On the other hand, Hillary is not the unmitigated ogre you make her out to be. Certainly, she’s done things I don’t like, but that’s true of every politician.

    You imply that you would not vote for Hillary if she’s the nominee. That’s the same thing as helping John McCain become president. How can you, with a straight face, profess to have the party’s best interests at heart and then turn around and suggest you won’t support the party’s presidential candidate if it’s not the candidate you prefer?

    Wrong? No, I’m not wrong, you are.

  80. 94

    DustinJames spews:

    And also @81, he won’t win PA. The reason? Those same trend lines showed him extremely tight or leading before election day in Ohio and Ohio blew him out by 10%. Pennsylvania has demographics that work against his favor worse than Ohio did.

    I admire his cojones for trying to make PA close. But seriously, he’s just blowing his money there to make sure she doesn’t kick him by 20% or more. I expect something in the 14-18% range, no matter what the polls show at this point.

    Again, I point to Ohio polling as the source.

    His strongest area of support will be Philadelphia and the 2 supporting metro counties, she will get wide support through the rest of the state (even in the college towns in the middle of the state, she’s still doing better), and his next shot moving east to west isn’t until Pittsburgh, and there she’s still doing better than he is.

    A pretty detailed map of how the economics and demographics break down in PA compared to the same in Ohio is published in exquisite detail (including easy to follow pictures) at this link:

    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/3/21/152338/706

  81. 95

    correctnotright spews:

    @94: Poor dustin – can’t admit defeat, just like Clinton. Love all the lies about Bosnia and how she was under fire and had to run off the tarmac to the waiting cars – none of which were true. Clinton’s propensity to exagerate and lie will sink her candidancy.

    All of her talking points are also false:

    1. She is tied with Obama (false): mathematically she has to win 2/3 of the remaining delegates – beyond unlikely as Pennsylavania will be even or Obama will win it. VClinotn is self-destructing again with blatant lies and Mark Penn resigning but not really resigning.

    2. Obama is trying to prevent Michigan and florida from being seated (false: those states jumped the gun and their delegates don’t count by the rules)

    3. She was against NAFTA from the start (demonstrably false: she shilled Bill on for Nafta and spoke against Nafta to a number of groups)

    4. She was against the war – false – she voted for AUMF in Iraq.

    5. She is the only one who can beat McCain (false) – most polls now show her losing and Obama at least tied.

    6. She has the experience – where?

  82. 96

    DustinJames spews:

    1) Again, you seem to forget Florida and Michigan. They will be seated, regardless of what you think now.

    2) See above.

    3) Strange, just about all her inner circle write about how she was against NAFTA. Her biographer that followed her around the white house states that she was strongly against NAFTA. Republican proponents of NAFTA were bitching that Hillary was the reason that NAFTA may not pass when it was still not signed by Bill Clinton. She showed up to those events as First Lady supporting the president, not supporting NAFTA.

    It’d be like if the VP was against NAFTA, but hte president was pro-NAFTA, he’s not going to speak out against the ultimate boss’s decision even though the VP would be arguing inside against it.

    4) She voted for the authorization. Have you heard her speech when she cast it? She cast the vote as a leverage and told the president to use that vote as a last resort and as a bargaining chip in his continuation through the U.N. The President however, ignored that advice and went straight to war.

    5) Most national polls show Obama ahead of McCain. Most national polls also showed Kerry above Bush. State by state polls, you know the electoral college – how the presidency is actually WON, show something different. Clinton is the only candidate who wins the 5 states key to capturing the white house: Florida, New York, California, Pennsylvania, and Ohio. Obama does not capture all 5 against McCain. State by state, Clinton does BETTER and gets MORE electoral votes vs McCain than Obama does. And she has since February. Relying on National Polls does nothing except get you President Kerry and President Gore – oh wait, what, those didn’t happen? Probably because of those ‘national’ polls you’re citing.

    6) Shit, don’t even go there. I can start to write an encyclopedia if you’d like me to…

  83. 97

    spews:

    1,2 – Dustin, while you feel they will be seated, and you are likely right, that doesn’t mean that the fraud elections will have their results counted

    3 – Her White House Records release shows her shilling for NAFTA

    4 – And yet she then voted for Kyl-Lieberman which will allow Bust to go to war against Iran with the same legality as Iraq War.

    5 – State by state polling compilation sites show Obama outperforming Hillary

    http://www.fivethirtyeight.com
    http://www.hominidviews.com

    He’s been stronger than her for months, and it has even been demonstrated that Obama has a chance to win without OH, FL and PA. Hillary does worse (loses v McCain) than Obama in OR, WA, IA, NV, NM, MN, WI, NH and CO. Those aren’t traditional Red states, those are Purple and Blue where your more “electable” candidate fails.

    6- Yes, please write about her experience. You can’t include Bosnia (sniper), NorthernIreland (she didn’t in her own bio), China (that was just words), Health Care (failure), FMLA (it was signed 11 days into Bill’s first term, SCHIP (the process started a DECADE before her involvement). So tell me what her greatest successful legislative or executive accomplishment was, and now try and do it in a way that won’t have us thinking that Laura Bush is more qualified than Obama.