Comments

  1. 3

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    26

    “where do we get our money from? we W-O-R-K for it……..
    Commentby christmasghost— 3/16/06@ 9:29 pm”

    Now that is F-U-N-N-E-E-E-E ! ! !

    The whole point of being a Republican is so you don’t have to work and can live off other people’s work!

  2. 4

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    That’s what I do, when I collect my stock dividends. Well, why the hell not? Why should Democrats have a monopoly on working? We’re generous folks, we’ll be glad to share our work with Republicans, if we can find one who’s willing to do any.

  3. 5

    christmasghost spews:

    roger…aren’t you “playing” on the government’s dime? doesn’t that cost everyone?
    corporate welfare huh? i would just like to see a little less “government welfare”…..you know, all those people that can’t be fired no matter what they do or don’t do.
    how about that rog? you up for the challenge?

  4. 6

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    This right wing myth about how “hard” business owners “work” is the biggest load of crap! If they worked half as hard as their employees, they wouldn’t have time to attend all those GOP fundraisers, much less spend weekdays on the golf course.

  5. 7

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Oh, I forgot! They consider golf “work!” It’s called “marketing” or “networking” or something like that, for business expense deduction purposes.

  6. 8

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    33

    “roger…aren’t you “playing” on the government’s dime? Commentby christmasghost— 3/16/06@ 10:00 pm”

    No, I’m playing on my dime. As I’ve posted numerous times before on HA, which you apparently were too lazy to read, when I worked for the gummint, the gummint took money from my paychecks and put it in a “retirement fund,” and now the gummint is taking my money out of the “retirement fund” and giving my money back to me 30 years later. If I live long enough, my money will run out, and then they’ll have to pay me from the capital gains and interest that my money earned during the 30 years the gummint sat on my money, but I might not live that long.

  7. 9

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    18

    “Anything that keeps you speaking, publishing, and in the spotlight is good for the GOP … Commentby Lys— 3/16/06@ 5:21 pm”

    Can’t see how. You pukes must be so punch-drunk you think Goldy is doing you a favor by kicking you in the nuts. Hey, don’t let me stop you from going back for more …

    HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR HAR

  8. 10

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    19

    “There’s really no such thing as free speech, so why kid ourselves? Commentby Mark The Redneck— 3/16/06@ 5:30 pm”

    You’re jumping the gun, Mark. The fascist dictatorship of your dreams isn’t a done deal yet.

  9. 11

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    20

    “Gummint could run a giant google of all websites and shut down those which have any political content not approved by the government.”

    MTR is showing his true colors, altho I don’t think he planned it that way.

  10. 12

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    22

    “HTF do the noble poooooooooor get a voice? Commentby Mark The Redneck— 3/16/06@ 6:34 pm”

    They don’t. That’s why our gummint spends 10 times as much on corporate welfare as it does on sick kids.

  11. 13

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    CLS – Hold on thar… are you suggesting that McCain-Feingold might be unconstifuckingtutional?

    And if money = speech, HTF do the noble poooooooooor get a voice?

  12. 18

    Donnageddon spews:

    More BARNES REVIEW posts, Klake! They think just like you… with nothing but pure bullshit and hatred!

  13. 20

    klake spews:

    Klake, how does it feel to have been outed as a real live Nazi?

    Commentby Donnageddon— 3/17/06@ 12:52 am

    Donnageddon did you return a check the last response made?

  14. 21

    klake spews:

    “Yawn! What up Doc?”

    Whatsamadder, little klakie? Are you bored here at HA? Then maybe you should surf your sorry little ass over to http://www.RepublicansSniffingEachOthersButts.ORG

    Commentby dj— 3/17/06@ 12:38 am

    Dj I really like this Blog and reading all your comments about like in general. The yawn, what’s up Doc is for Roger benefit. When he was a little fellow the was a rabbit cartoon that use that expression

  15. 22

    KlakeSucksDick spews:

    Goldy you shouldn’t appear with that coward Carlson on the radio. It raises his profile higher than he deserves. He’s a lying punk.

  16. 23

    GBS spews:

    Then again, JCH is a liar, and then that would still make this Rogers’s imagination, since JCH’s word can’t be trusted.

  17. 25

    GBS spews:

    @ 48:

    Quite the imagination Roger has there, huh? This almost seems real.

    Are you sure it’s not a figment of my imagination? JCH espouses that I have a vivid imagination.

    Look here’s his comments about it:
    108, Libertarian, I never attended flight school. Hence, I never “washed out”. All a figment of GBS’s vivid “imagination”. All my training was done in Newport, RI and Coronado, Ca, as well as the old Philadelphia Ship Yard. Then, three WESTPACs of 6 monthe each , one ten month IO cruise, and a tour in Coronado at the NAB. Four years at sea, and two ashore.

    Comment by Myron [JCH] Silverstein, ESQ— 2/24/06 @ 3:04 pm

    @ 123

    JCH: Are you saying GWB served in combat then? Just askin’
    Comment by windie — 1/24/06 @ 3:59 pm [No, but, Windie, have YOU ever “buckled up” in a Mach 2 F-106? Not for pussies. I washed out of Naval Air [bad GI] and served Surface Line [1110]. Flying [and training] in military jets are not for the Bill Clintons of the world.]
    Comment by JCH — 1/24/06 @ 4:37 pm

  18. 28

    dj spews:

    Lys @ 38

    “Haven’t you figured out the Roger Rabbit is Goldy?”

    Oh brother (*rolls eyes*). Another “brilliant” deduction from a fucking idiot cum oracle wannabe.

  19. 30

    klake spews:

    1.The whole point of being a Republican is so you don’t have to work and can live off other people’s work!
    Commentby Roger Rabbit— 3/16/06@ 9:59 pm

    Nice spin job Roger we all know what your friends are working for in Seattle. It is clean out the middle class pocket books and gives it to those who do not appreciate the effort it took to earn the success. The only trouble with the Robin Hood theory is that you do not give it all to the poor but you keep 90% for the thief. The next thing you have is the education systems keep the poor dumb so they cannot keep what is given to them or earn by their own sweat. Roger how many lotto winners are broke or go bankrupts a year after winning. Today Europe is watching a major adjustment to their socialist systems and others countries other than France will feel this pain.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/w.....abor_x.htm

    Students protest France’s new labor law
    PARIS (AP) — Students marched, chanted and whistled in renewed nationwide protests of a new labor law Thursday, as the French government tried to maintain a united front for a pivotal test of its direction. Tens of thousands of university and high school students turned out for marches in several cities, many wearing T-shirts mocking the government and waving enormous banners demanding the law be repealed. The escalating protests center on a measure that allows employers to fire young workers within their first two years without giving a reason. This is designed to give employers flexibility, which would encourage them to hire more young people

  20. 32

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It would be fun to see where the winger blogs get their money from! But I don’t think the Supremes will let this turkey fly. On the other hand, you never know — I wouldn’t put it past Roberts, Scalia, and their ilk to say right-wing blogs are “discussions” entitled to free speech protections, but left-wing blogs are “broadcasters” subject to neo-FCC regulation … you know $5,000,000 fines for “aiding the enemy.”

  21. 33

    Carl Ballard spews:

    Hey, you’ve got to give me more time on these things. I have a whole graphic ready (It’s the KVI tower with a horribly cut and pasted picture of you on it labled “Goldy on KVI”). But it’s on my home computer. Is there audio on the interweb?

  22. 35

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    And that would include banning all blogs too like this one. Gummint could run a giant google of all websites and shut down those which have any political content not approved by the government.

    Of course, that would make us just like the ChiComs, but isn’t that really a minor thing when it comes to having “fair” elections?

  23. 36

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Look, the only way to have truly fair elections is to totally ban all campaign contributions. Let the government run the elections and hand out money equally to all candidates. To get their message out, they can use the money to go through approved outlets such as the New York Times which everyone knows is one of the few papers in the world that is actually fair and balanced.

    This might step on the first amendment, but that’s really a bunch of horseshit anyway. There’s really no such thing as free speech, so why kid ourselves?

  24. 37

    Lys spews:

    Goldy:

    Anything that keeps you speaking, publishing, and in the spotlight is good for the GOP, and thus is fine with me. If the GOP is paying you, they aren’t paying you enough.

    I see you still don’t have a radio show of your own yet. Don’t give up!

  25. 38

    CAPS LOCK STUCK spews:

    18 – good for the GOP? Was Irons a Libertarian? What’s Dubya done for the GOP these days?

    19&20 – Publicly financed campaigns? What are you redneck – a sosheelist? Just keep hummin’ to yourself: money isn’t speech – money isn’t speech…

  26. 39

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    I’ll have to agree with Goldy on this one. Unless there is a some overriding public interest, or abuse of the system, I think we should lean on the side of free speech. I think McCain-Feingold has shown that even well intentioned campaign finance reform can be circumvented.

    I’m for less rules, and more full and immediate disclosure. If George Soros wants to give millions of dollars to candidates of his choice, I’m okay with that, as long as I know he’s done so, prior to the election being held. The same would apply to Richad Mellon Scaife.

  27. 40

    BOB from BOEING spews:

    8 — There is N O limit to any media using its editorial voice in any way it wishes. Pump pieces, selected letters, editorials, the right or wrong photo, etc.

    Let the readers beware. Donating ad space – may be a Disclosure problem.

    The rest – do as you wish if you own the ink, or the keyboard.

    That is the way it has worked for hundreds of years. Before PDC and modern media – one of the real resons for newpapers was their visible partisan stands. Peole did not read to see what the enemy had to say – but their heros and advocates.

    Balanced reporting – so called – is a newer idea. A lot to do with TV trying to get big market share for news – and facing a lot of very mixed regional audiences.

  28. 41

    Danno spews:

    JDB-

    A) My recollection is that Goldy did “protest too much.” The only thing that has been proved is that nothing can be proved either way. I believe it quite likely that Goldy dragged out an old story at his big daddy’s ‘suggestion.’

    B) Bullshit

  29. 43

    Danno spews:

    Or how about Goldy’s mudslinging at daddy Ron’s ‘suggestion?’ Now there is some ‘campaigning’ to be proud of.

  30. 44

    JDB spews:

    Goldy,

    There is a difference between advocacy and coordination (which is what John and Kirby did) and voicing an opinion. When you cross the line (which John and Kirby did), you fall under PDC and should be subject to campaign laws.

    Saying that you do not like Rossi or Irons, and here is why is one thing. Recruiting people to go work for a campaign and assiting those who are working for a campaign (Again, what John and Kirby did), means you are a part of a campaign.

    Think about it this way. If as part of my job I voice support for a Democrat, that is not campaigning. But as soon as I invite people in to use my phones to call on behalf of the campain, that is campaigning.

    You should have stayed with your intial point and not allowed John to flank you and draw a comparison and then back down. What John did was and should be illegal, and is not the same as what you have done.

  31. 46

    BOB from BOEING spews:

    Carlson is avoiding the war and avoiding solid polling that Bush is viewed by voters as —

    — I N C OM P E T E N T —-

    Carlson shoud do a factual report on the success of Gregoire. If even he could be that truthful.

  32. 47

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    Throw him a curve. Support the bill. Talk about how it’s the right thing and you support it.

  33. 48

    christmasghost spews:

    roger……”It would be fun to see where the winger blogs get their money from! ”
    it figures that you would have to ask that! hah!
    where do we get our money from? we W-O-R-K for it……..
    try it sometime….and i don’t mean with your head stuck in the public trough.

  34. 49

    BOB from BOEING spews:

    Even if you are paid , free speech trumps.

    (need RR here)… The US Supremes have ben very clean on several cases that spending money on politics, as in buying ads, is an important extension of free speech.

    The town square ideas are great, but in our polital process, we also get to buy politcal medis pathways, – to extend the voices, as it were. Old days, mailings and radio – now TV, radio, cable, phonebanking, etc.

    If blogs can sell ads, go for it.

  35. 50

    BV spews:

    Of course bloggers should be exempt. Blogging is nothing more than posting your opinions. It’s not like your a PAID commentator like Carlson is. Blogging is free speach in it’s purest form.

  36. 51

    Libertarian spews:

    I agree with you, Goldy. This blogging stuff isn’t anything to merit attention from the campaign finance geeks. It’s an electronic version of a barber shop discussion with Goldy and Stefan being the propiertors of two very different shops.

  37. 52

    BOB from BOEING spews:

    GOLDY- do not support this bil.

    You have every right to accept paid ads on your blog……and that includes political stuff. J U S T like every newpaper.

    Period.

  38. 53

    JDB spews:

    dj:

    Surely you know by now that we are all Roger Rabbit. In fact, this blog doesn’t exist, but is a figment of Roger’s imagination.

Radio Goldy

People keep asking me why Tim Eyman, known for his stupidly conceived, and even more stupidly-er written anti-tax initiatives, would file an initiative aimed at overturning the recently passed gay rights bill.

Hmm. Well, this could be a reason. And this. And I suppose, this, this, and this. You see, Timmy is an initiative whore, and any opportunity to get himself in the papers or in front of the cameras fellating our initiative process seems well worth his while.

Or on the radio, for that matter. Timmy’s scheduled to appear on the John Carlson Show today in the 4 pm hour (KVI-570), to explain to listeners exactly why we should all celebrate our God-given right to discriminate against gays and lesbians. But as it turns out, I’m a bit of whore myself, so I’m slotted to be on the show sometime after 4:15 to share a few words with Tim.

Tune in if you can bear it.

UPDATE: (4:41 pm)
Tim accused me of trying to monopolize the debate. Now that’s rich.

UPDATE, UPDATE: (4:47 pm)
Um… judging from the fact that two of the first three callers wanted to talk about something else, it looks like Tim may have a little trouble generating buzz behind this initiative.

Comments

  1. 54

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    Wow, JCH. You found a way to be racist and homophobic in one sentence.

    I’m sure the GOP is proud of you!

  2. 55

    W spews:

    There are all kinds of ways that the monkeys could have infected humans, JCH. Why is it that the only one you’re concerned about is the one that mirrors your sexual fantasies?

  3. 56

    JCH spews:

    Don, I STILL don’t understand how the AIDS virus got from African monkeys to young black males in the Sudan. Or Ziare? Or Zimbabwe? Help me here! I bet YOU know the answer!

  4. 57

    JCH spews:

    JCH said

    How did the AIDs virus get from African monkeys to African blacks? Perhaps a little African “Tookie Williams love”? Well, what an inpressive culture!! Kind of like Detroit!!

    I am a follower of Christ, but you JCH, can go to Hell. I wouldn’t spit on you to stop a fever you had.

    Comment by Donnageddon — 1/30/06 @ 10:02 pm [Er, Don. I "axed" a question. Answer it!!]

  5. 58

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    Mark The Republican @ 126

    -Special privilege means that the Excel crowd goes into high gear. Every business and gummint agency will have “targets” on spreadsheets covering everything from hiring, to promotions to pay and everything else. They call them “targets”, but they are quotas pure and simple.-

    Where in anti-discrimination bill that just passed the legislature do you see any language regarding “targets?” Or, are you just making this one up, too?

    I still think MTR is just faking it for attention. Nobody could be this stupid.

  6. 59

    W spews:

    “Does this new law protect a Straight Man or Woman from being discriminated against by a Gay or Lesbian business or Landlord? Just Curious?”

    Of course it does. Why wouldn’t it … doesn’t everyone have a sexual orientation?

  7. 60

    momus spews:

    Goldy,

    I istened to your 30 seconds of attempted fame yesterday.

    Quite frankly you should have started off by thanking Mr. Eyman for giving you an identity.

    Secondly, your voice sounds like you are waiting for the other ball to drop.

    Finally, you were dismissied as the isignificant loser that you are. It’s good to see that they recognized you as a crackpot.

  8. 61

    GS spews:

    182

    “All of you realize that the initiative will pump up the votes come this November? I guess you all stuck your foot in it again.”

    But for which side?

  9. 62

    GS spews:

    Does this new law protect a Straight Man or Woman from being discriminated against by a Gay or Lesbian business or Landlord? Just Curious?

  10. 64

    Mark spews:

    Belltowner @ 178

    But can you find a Chicken Marsala recipe that doesn’t taste like airline food?

  11. 65

    jaybo spews:

    John the Revelator @ 185,

    It sounds like you need a trained professional to help with your paranoid schizophrenia. I can recommend someone for you if you need help.

    One thing that may help you right away is to not visit this site anymore.

  12. 66

    John the Revelator spews:

    To Hell with Tim Eyman! He should be ashamed. And, if he had any balls, his little inititive would be for allowing society to stone homosexuals to death. Period. I’m queer as can be, have lost housing and employment because of it and I DARE the religious right to use their beliefs to KILL me in the streets! F&ck them!

  13. 67

    Redneck H\'moe spews:

    “And the choice of orifice to put your dick in is NOT a legitimate personal characteristic upon which to grant special privileges.”

    I agree. And neither is skin color, age, gender, or physical capability. This is a dog eat dog world and Mark the Redneck is CLEARLY the big dog who has eaten MANY MANY other dogs in his time.

    Surprise, Mark! You are both right AND wrong. It’s too late to stop the addition of single word characterizations to the list. We’ve stopped being able to discern by decency when a person has been illegitimately wronged, and now must LIST all the ways it is possible in order for our judges to render a verdict. Don’ worry ol’ boy, we’ll add Low IQ, Breeder, and Pink Pink Skin to the list eventually.

  14. 68

    klake spews:

    There’s more than enough information out there to determine that the Bush administration has broken international law in more than one area with its Iraq war. They have not, however, been criminally tried. Therein lies the difference.

    Please recite those laws you claim he broke and what evidence do you have to support that claim? You cannot try the winner of a conflict unless you are willing to go to war yourself.

  15. 69

    Green Thumb spews:

    What MTR @ 166 seems to be saying is that he’s a classic techno-geek. Given the remarkably ignorant things he has said about women, how could one be at all surprised at his take on sexual orientation? I say, keep him talking to his heart’s content, because he’s making conservatives look pretty ridiculous to the moderate middle that determines the outcomes of Washington elections.

  16. 70

    spews:

    I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Tim Eyman is in fact yet another closet gay man uncomfortable with anyone finding out and that he is over compensating by filing this initiative.

    If so Tim, really, it’s alright. I won’t think any more highly of you for knowing.

  17. 71

    spews:

    * Exported from MasterCook Mac *

    Tomato Bisque

    Recipe By :
    Serving Size : 6 Preparation Time :0:00
    Categories : Soups

    Amount Measure Ingredient — Preparation Method
    ——– ———— ——————————–
    1 300 g pkg. soft tofu — drained
    1 20 oz can tomatoes
    1 1/2 tbsps oil
    1 onion — thinly sliced
    3 cloves garlic — pressed
    1 tsp salt
    1 tbsp cornstarch
    2 c water
    1 large tomato — chopped
    1 celery stalk — finely chopped
    parsley — for garnish

    1) Blend tofu & canned tomatoes in blender or food processor until smooth.

    2) In a saucepan, saute onion & garlic in oil until onion begins to brown.
    Add salt. Remove from heat.

    3) Dissolve cornstarch in 1 c of cold water & pour into sauteed onion & garlic
    mixture. Stir constantly to avoid lumps. Bring to a boil over medium heat,
    stirring occasionally. Reduce heat & let simmer for 5 minutes.

    4) Add tofu mixture, chopped fresh tomato, celery & the remaining water. Heat on medium for 10 minutes. Serve immediately.

  18. 73

    Dr. E spews:

    There’s more than enough information out there to determine that the Bush administration has broken international law in more than one area with its Iraq war. They have not, however, been criminally tried. Therein lies the difference.

    Pointing that out does not make me a pacifist. If we were invaded by, say, a raging horde of Nicaraguans (as Reagan would have had us believe back in the 80s), then we’d have every right to defend ourselves militarily.

    Using the entire NFL to beat up on the neighborhood bully, just because you want his lunch money, is pretty immoral, if you ask me. Especially if you go about rationalizing your actions by claiming that the bully might hypothetically been able to give some shady gang members some of his firecrackers to blow up your cat. That was more or less the administrations rationale, if I remember it correctly.

  19. 74

    klake spews:

    Klake –
    I’m not a Pacifist. I just don’t believe in immoral or illegal wars.

    Comment by Dr. E— 1/30/06 @ 10:30 pm
    Then you are a Pacifist and it not something to be ashamed of. You lack all the nessary information to determined if it is a illegal war.

  20. 75

    Catalina Vel-DuRay spews:

    I love the conservative asswipe who “knew a guy at the U” who was supposedly kept from registering for a class because he was white. What a dumbshit. Too stupid to even make up a name for this non-existant guy. Can’t you even make up a half decent lie? Geez conservatives are dumb. What a drag on society they are.

  21. 77

    Gray Coyote spews:

    Well of course it is illegal to discriminate in housing. I don’t really understand what elderly and Southern have to do with anything, but I in any case I really doubt that anybody is going to sue some old woman who needs a roommate. But if an apartment complex wouldn’t rent to whites or blacks, of course.

    Actually before HB2661 passed, it was illegal under state law to refuse to rent to someone due to race, marital status, etc etc even if you were renting out rooms in your own home.

    In the process of passing this bill, language was added to where they now can discriminate as far as state law is concerned. Whether or not this covers federal law. I’ve seen the opponents screaming saying they’d be required to rent rooms in their homes to gays if they make their rooms available for rent, and the law was changed.

    Remember also this doesn’t effect federal laws on housing discrimination. As many of us in the gun rights movement know very well, you have to follow both state and federal law to be in compliance legally.

  22. 79

    klake spews:

    Dr E I am been doing some research on Pacifism and what nation state that was destroyed because it did not defend itself from an outside threat. All the men were slathered and the women and kids sold as slaves. How is your Greek History?
    Athens, 411 BCE: With the city-state depleted and exhausted by the long and costly Peloponnesian War, Athens nevertheless took time out for a theater festival. The hit of the festival was a hilarious, groundbreaking and very topical farce: “Lysistrata,” in which the comic genius Aristophanes depicted a sex strike for peace by the war-weary women of Athens
    By 411, the war extended far beyond Greece’s Peloponnesian peninsula, where Athens’ enemy Sparta ruled. All across the Aegean Sea, Athens’ brilliant and powerful navy was building an empire—and it was not building gently. Five years earlier, in 416, the navy had besieged the tiny island-state of Melos, slaughtered every adult Melian man and sold the women and children into slavery. The next year, in 415, Athens’ leading dramatic playwright Euripides debuted “The Trojan Women,” a pointed tale of the end of the Trojan War and its tragic consequences for women and children, especially—but not limited to—those on the losing side. So “Lysistrata” wasn’t the first antiwar play. It was, however, the first play about antiwar organizing—and it stood Euripides’ vision on its head. If women were victims of war, said “Lysistrata,” perhaps women should do something about war. It took the imagination of a genius to picture such a thing, for although Athens was nominally a democracy, women were not part of the body politic; they were the virtual property of their fathers or husbands or brothers or sons. The women of Sparta had more freedom.
    No one took Aristophanes’ hint. There was no peace; Athens lost the war a few years later. (A note to empire builders: Barely a dozen years elapsed between the massacre at Melos and the destruction of the walls of Athens under the whips of Spartan overseers.) Yet it was the Attic culture that prevailed in the West—including its gender ethos. Women remained segregated from political life for the next two millennia, and Euripides’ tragic vision, not Aristophanes’, continued to reflect the harsh reality: For all those thousands of years, women and children suffered the terrible consequences of wars they hadn’t made.
    Flash forward two-and-a-half millennia to the spring of 2003 CE. The United States was about the enter the second phase of a war that had already been costly and threatened to be long, perhaps endless. It was also the most unpopular war in history, with opponents across the globe protesting by the millions. No longer excluded from the body politic in much of the world, women were prominent in all of those protests, but nowhere more than in the Lysistrata Project: On March 3, women-organized groups in 59 countries around the world held 1,000-plus more-or-less simultaneous readings of Aristophanes’ still-relevant comedy in the hope of inspiring even more mass resistance to the war.

  23. 80

    jaybo spews:

    You moonbats can’t win for losing, can you…..

    All of you realize that the initiative will pump up the votes come this November? I guess you all stuck your foot in it again.

  24. 81

    klake spews:

    Pointing that out does not make me a pacifist. If we were invaded by, say, a raging horde of Nicaraguans (as Reagan would have had us believe back in the 80s), then we’d have every right to defend ourselves militarily.

    Do to the nature of war today we now using preemptive strikes against people or nations who are preparing to strike this nation. All rules you are dealing with no longer applies after the Towers fell in New York. If you support War under certain conditions then you are not a pacifist. I will not fight a war with your rulebook because it lacks clarity when to engage the enemy and how.

  25. 83

    Dr. E spews:

    “Technical stuff way beyond anything you can comprehend.”

    Don’t flatter yourself, Mark. You wanna talk elite universities? I can put “Cantab.” after my name.

  26. 86

    thor spews:

    Tim Eyman has already demonstrated that its all about the money for him. Everything he’s offered up for the ballot in 2006 is a proposal seeking a big money donor. The highest bidders will get his attention.

    If he succeeds at putting a measure on the ballot to take away hard won discrimination protections he’ll bring large numbers of voters to the polls in the greater Seattle region and in the more urbanized parts of the state.

    That will improve the odds that Maria Cantwell will win big. The Sheriff will be in big trouble. And it is highly likely that at least four GOP Senate seats will swing Democrat in Seattle and Tacoma suburbs and perhaps more Dems elected in places like Whatcom County and Spokane (where a very solid democrat will take on Brad Benson, who voted to deny people basic rights because “gay people drive better cars than the rest of us” – making for a very solid Democrat majority in the next state Senate. The state House will probably grow its majority under any condition.

    Eyman will not succeed at restoring discrimination to the state’s laws. Taking away hard won rights is extremely difficult. The vast majority of voters in our state don’t think it should be OK to fire someone just because they are gay. And people know the differenced between getting a job and getting married.

    Tim Eyman will deserve whatever brand is now attached to him because he’s all about grabbing headlines to solicit donors to live the lifestyle he’s grown accustomed to making hundreds of thousands of dollars playing politics with people’s lives.

  27. 87

    Steve spews:

    Tim Eyeman is a filthy, stinking, pig who should die in a fire crash in his SUV! How about an initiative denying rights to whitebread x-tian str8 assholes!

  28. 89

    Left Turn spews:

    Tell em we appreciate their honesty and that now that they’re open about the fact that they want to discriminate against people, we’ll use that against their side at the polls. Of course Timmy just wants to be first on this so he can get paid. What else is new?

  29. 90

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    Didn’t Timmy marry his teacher, LaTourneau style? Maybe there should be a law against that.

    It’s interested that Timmy got involved in politics because of Ross Perot. Shows how far Timmy has fallen – Perot made a point of eschewing divisive social issues.

  30. 91

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    by Goldy, 01/30/2006, 3:00 PM

    “You see, Timmy is an initiative whore, and any opportunity to get himself in the papers or in front of the cameras fellating our initiative process seems well worth his while.”

    If Eyman is an initiative whore (and he is), then what kind of whore are you?

  31. 92

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    Did I mention Stefan used to eschew gay-baiting, too, until he went off the deep end?

  32. 93

    spews:

    Chicken Salad Sandwiches

    2 cups leftover lean chicken (Note #1)
    1/4 small or medium onion
    2 large stalks of celery, with a few leaves
    1/4 medium red bell pepper
    1 small carrot, finely shredded
    1 clove finely minced garlic (optional)
    3 tablespoons sweet pickle relish
    3/4 cups reduced-fat or fat-free mayonnaise
    lettuce
    tomato
    whole wheat or rye bread

    Chop onion, celery and red pepper in a food processor. Add chicken and process again briefly.

    Scrape into a bowl. Add mayonnaise, garlic and pickle relish. Stir to combine.

    Spread a slice of bread (Note #2) with a thin coat of mayonnaise on one side. Spread another slice thickly with chicken salad. Top with lettuce, thinly sliced tomato and the mayonnaised bread. Enjoy!

  33. 94

    rwb spews:

    @ 4

    Didn’t your read it? Goldy says he’s a “bit of a whore”, which could be close to a “bite off a whore”. Maybe it’s just a small body part of a whore.
    Whatever kind of whore he is, he’s our whore and I, for one, am glad of it.

    Keep up the good work Goldy!!

  34. 95

    Aaron spews:

    Things I like about Tim:
    1) He’s not yet dead–which means I still have an opportunity to be the one to assassinate him.

    (I’m not sure assassinate is the right word for such a petty nuisance. Euthanize?)

  35. 98

    Aaron spews:

    “reduced-fat or fat-free mayonnaise”? Come on, step up to the plate and use the real stuff (preferably Larry’s)!!!

  36. 99

    Splinter spews:

    Maybe… just maybe… this is a good thing. This move by Eyeman will backfire in my humble opinion. I’m pretty sure that most voters in Washington would vote against something so obviously (and morally) wrong and all it will do is expose the bigots for who they truly are.

    I’ve been reading the blogs on this topic and there are only two ways to defend Eyeman’s position: 1) Wrap yourself in a literalist translation of the Bible and start quoting scripture from Leviticus…. And this will turn off most rational thinking Christians; or 2) Be consistent and be against ALL forms of anti-discrimination legislation…. This isn’t a world I would want to live in (where one can get fired for being black, or jewish, or married to an asian person), but at least the position is consistent and will consistently be rejected by the majority in the State.

    Has anyone actually read the “against” verbage in HB2661? It’s downright scarey, completely based on believing the Bible is the unerring “word of God” and something you would see in present day Iran.

    I think it was easy for most Republicans in the Senate to cast a vote in support of a fanatical base of voters, but it will be interesting to see if they actually have the guts to come out and verbalize the garbage of the extreme right fringe. I’ve asked my State Senator (Cheryl Pflug) TWICE now for an explanation on why she voted in favor of allowing discrimination and she has yet to answer me…. I think I know why she won’t answer me: Because it will make her look like the crazy bigots she is pandering to.

    Come on Cheryl, I dare you, send me that letter you promised!

  37. 100

    Goldy spews:

    Con1st @4,

    I thought we’ve been through this. I’m a bit of a media whore. Self-promotion is a necessary tool of the trade.

  38. 101

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Can you moonbats explain to me why someone should get special privilege based on where they put their dick?

  39. 103

    skinny spews:

    MTR, why should someone get special privilege based on their imaginary friends (aka Jesus, Mohammed, et al)?

  40. 106

    Mark spews:

    mesa @ 15: “Which ‘special priviledges’ would those be?”

    Bonus points for filling unexpired city council terms??

  41. 107

    W. spews:

    It’s nothing more than a transparent attempt to get more GOP voters to the polls come November is order to offset the expected loss of either the house or senate.

  42. 108

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wow – cite a single case where that has happened. Just One. Seattle Times couldn’t come up with even a single case. Can you?

    And don’t kid yourself. “Civil Rights” has been twisted into special privilege. And the choice of orifice to put your dick in is NOT a legitimate personal characteristic upon which to grant special privileges.

  43. 110

    klake spews:

    Sen. Bill Finkbeiner, a Kirkland Republican who bucked his party to vote his wife’s conscience and put the bill over the top. I hope Bill has new plans for what his next job will be when his time is up in the Senate.

    Pride in Olympia over gay rights

    PASSAGE of a gay-rights bill is a moment of pride for all of Washington. Our progressive state is on record opposing discrimination against gays and lesbians.

    This is a huge victory for state Rep. Ed Murray, the Seattle Democrat who fought tirelessly for 11 years to protect gays and lesbians in matters of housing, employment and insurance. This is a big moment for gays, lesbians and tolerant citizens everywhere. Success did not come easily. The bill has been fought over in Olympia for nearly 30 years. Murray refused to lose and kept trying to create a coalition to make it happen.

    The bill that passed the Senate Friday on a 25-23 vote is neither radical nor threatening. It merely adds the words “sexual orientation” to existing law that prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, age, gender, disability, religion and marital status. The legislation harms no one; it helps protect gays and lesbians.

    The vote never could have happened without Murray’s leadership and tenacity. It also couldn’t have happened without state Sen. Bill Finkbeiner, a Kirkland Republican who bucked his party to vote his conscience and put the bill over the top. The House concurred and Gov. Christine Gregoire announced she would sign the bill into law Tuesday.

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....yed30.html

  44. 111

    Left Turn spews:

    Hey wingers. Read it and weep! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11103804/ Your party is on its way out. We’ve effectively run you out of Washington state government. Now we’re going to run you out of the federal government. Then we’re going to run you to hell where you belong!

  45. 112

    MrJWow spews:

    Mark, I am not going to get drawn into an anectdotal argument with you. How about you pony up with some further explanation after making an outrageous claim about civil rights being special privileges?

  46. 113

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wow – I’ve seen how this stuff works up close. Believe me, it’s a quota system in every way. Goodies are transferred from producers to takers without regard to anything other than superficial characteristics.

    It is illegal and fundamentally unAmerican.

  47. 114

    Particle Man spews:

    I fail to see where this is a problem. Timmy is going to pay people to gather names and addresses across this state from bigots and then he is going to deliver the list to the sec of state and the list will become public. Knowing who all the bigots are and where they live is a net gain in my book. Just think of all the shit these bigots will be getting in the mail; KKK membership letters, Nazi memorobilia catologs, discount cupons for white sheets.

  48. 115

    Ivan spews:

    Mark the Redneck:

    You know, don’t you, how much happier you will be when you come out?

  49. 116

    MrJWow spews:

    Okay, Mark. I’ll assume that you are white and middle class along with being male and heterosexual (full disclosure – I am all those things as well). If you really feel put upon and discriminated against, then by all means do what you have to do. I know that I am the privileged one so I’ll work towards equal rights for everyone.

  50. 117

    Particle Man spews:

    I can see radio adds for KVI in song like the old Dr Pepper ad campaign. We walk like a bigot we think like a bigot we talk like a bigot. Wouldnt you like to be a bigot to?
    Just sign a petition and you can be a bigot like Timothy to.

  51. 118

    Mark the Reddick spews:

    Just remember “Mark the Redneck” is the “producer” who welches on his bets. His mother (whose basement he haunts) must be so proud.

    Mark, it’s OK to come out of the closet. You don’t need to spend years hating yourself like Jim West (R).

  52. 119

    Mar k17 spews:

    Mark the Redneck, has it occurred to you that lesbians, who I believe currently lack a dick, are also affected by the passage of this bill? How have your rights been injured by granted them the right not to be fired or discriminated?

  53. 120

    Bobblehead spews:

    MTR,

    The quotas you’re talking about are in place because of laws that were enacted independently of the anti-discriminatory laws that have been passed. However, if you want to go to the extreme that adding sexual preference, etc. to the anti-discriminatory means that they’ll be added to the minority business policies/laws, then go crazy. Just means the pool got more diluted. Most of the policies I’ve seen do not have a certain percentage for female owned businesses or non-white owned businesses, they lump both together.

    All, in all, if the addition of homosexuals, transgender, etc. to the list of ‘minorities’ equates to adding them to the pre-existing quotas it just means the number of businesses that meet the requirement just increased. So, congrats!. ;)

  54. 121

    tim spews:

    It is funny how the bigots who oppose this bill keep talking about “special priviledges” but when asked to name a single one of these, always ignore the question. Because, of course, there aren’t any. The bill simply adds gays to the list of protected classes that already include women, racial minorities, religious people, etc. But nobody is saying that these groups have “special priviledges” — well why not?
    What is also overlooked is that the bill equally protects straight people from discrimination as it does gay people. It protects sexual orientation, so anybody could legitimately have an issue with that at some point in their life, not just gay people (although obviously the reason for the bill is mainly to protect gay people).

  55. 123

    Mark spews:

    MrJWow @ 25

    If you’re talking to “Mark the Redneck,” please either use his full name or “MTR.” Otherwise, I think you’re talking to me.

    And, for the record, discrimination isn’t a black-and-white issue and it is most definitely not a simple thing. Most (though not all) legislation is more feel-good stuff to get people elected and/or appease a segment of the population. One can write all kinds of exceptions (e.g. whether you must take a particular person as a housemate), but where there is a (discriminatory) will, there’s a way.

    Just for the sake of argument… Is it discrimination if:

    1. A Christian bookstore won’t hire non-Christian salespeople?

    2. You refuse to hire a salesman to work in a lingerie store?

    3. An elderly black woman doesn’t want to take on a Southern white woman as a roommate in her house?

    4. A university class has 15 open slots on the first day of school, but a white male cannot register for the course?

    Just wondering…

  56. 124

    Bobblehead spews:

    Hey… Does this mean that if I get fired for screwing the boss’s wife I can sue the company for discrimination? Sweet!!

    Downside, the boss’s wife isn’t particularly attractive and I’m now going to slaughter a pig to get that horrid image out of my mind. Damn it.

  57. 125

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Wow – If I claim that I’m actually a lesbian in a man’s body, can anybody gonna argue with me? All I hafta do is make the claim and I now have a gun to point at anyone’s head I choose.

  58. 126

    Bobblehead spews:

    Mark@36

    1. If the bookstore has over 5 employees, yes.
    2. If the lingerie store has over 5 employees, yes.
    3. The law does not cover renting of rooms of private residences, mother-in-law apartments, single family residences on the same property that the owner lives on. So no.
    4. Yes.;)

    However, good luck proving any of the above that I marked as Yes.

  59. 127

    Bobblehead spews:

    MTR,

    Start dressing like a woman and/or undergo a sex change, then you might have a claim.

  60. 128

    tim spews:

    Just for the sake of argument… Is it discrimination if:

    1. A Christian bookstore won’t hire non-Christian salespeople?

    Duh. Of course you cannot ask someone their religion during a job interview — are you a moron?

    2. You refuse to hire a salesman to work in a lingerie store?

    I believe the courts have ruled that if there is a compelling interest to hire a person of particular sex for a job, it is ok.

    3. An elderly black woman doesn’t want to take on a Southern white woman as a roommate in her house?

    Well of course it is illegal to discriminate in housing. I don’t really understand what elderly and Southern have to do with anything, but I in any case I really doubt that anybody is going to sue some old woman who needs a roommate. But if an apartment complex wouldn’t rent to whites or blacks, of course.

    4. A university class has 15 open slots on the first day of school, but a white male cannot register for the course?

    What the hell are you talking about?

  61. 129

    MrJWow spews:

    Mark (and I mean that this time), you had made one previous comment in this thread. Why would you think I was talking to you? I’ll make it clearer in the future.

    What are you even saying? That discrimination will happen anyway so why bother to try to prevent or make it illegal?

    Your questions make your comment doubly ridiculous since you just said that discrimination is not a simple thing. I think that is probably true, but irrelevant to the discussion here. So, if you insist on making up scenarios and creating arguments from tiny possibilities, I will answer all your questions with a resounding maybe.

  62. 130

    Mark the Reddick spews:

    As a white male, I just laugh and laugh as my “fellows” who have no other reason to feel good about themselves other than having a dick (however modest) and a lack of melanin whine and moan about stuff like this. MTR is always talking about “producers,” but he’s terrified he can’t make it in a world which doesn’t offer him a huge headstart.

    (Plus: he feels really guilty about the circle jerks he used to organize when he was a lad.)

  63. 131

    klake spews:

    Most Republicans aren’t Homophobes;
    But Most Homophobes are Republican.

    Comment by Robert— 1/30/06 @ 5:12 pm

    Robert you wouldn’t be Bob from Boing? How about droping the stereotyping and add some substance to this web site.

  64. 132

    K spews:

    So why does Eyeman oppose representative government? He clearly believes that they should not decide issues of taxation. Now he believes they should not decide policy issues either. Is Tim Eyeman unamerican?

  65. 133

    AuntTora spews:

    So simple. Eyman files initiatives in order to pay himself to file and promote initiatives. No doubt he believes this campaign will be an easy one to get large numbers of homophobes and idiots to throw their money at. Big easy payday for Tim, win or lose — for TIM…. Taxpayers of the state lose if it actually gets on a ballot and scarce governmental resources are used to pay for a vote. And Tim laughs his (horses)ass off.

  66. 137

    Chuck spews:

    Gays have EXACTLY the same rights as everyone else without this law, we dont need to elevate deviant behavior with special privledges.

  67. 138

    skinny spews:

    So Chuck, if a homo gets hired by your company and advances to become your boss, you’re OK with him firing you just because you’re straight? That would have been legal before this bill was passed. Now it’s not.

    My question is, why should religion be protected?

  68. 139

    For the Clueless spews:

    running away from the Alito thread.

    Nothing but a bunch of wingnut shills and buffoons over there.

  69. 140

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    What special priveledge is being given to homosexuals in this law that is not also granted to heterosexuals. There is no mention of homosexuality in the law, it merely bans discrimination based on sexual preference. So if you are fired from a job because you are straight, you’re more than welcome to sue the company.

  70. 141

    For the Clueless spews:

    we dont need to elevate deviant behavior with special privledges.

    Taking into consideration your behavior on this comment board, I concur.

  71. 144

    W. spews:

    “That actually happened at the UW to someone I know.”

    Someone actually said that they couldn’t register because they were a white male?

    What was the class? Did they appeal?

  72. 145

    W. spews:

    “If my sexual preference is 5 year old boys, I can teach 1st grade school then…good idea!”

    Amazing how the whole concept of consent simply flies over the heads of these morons.

  73. 146

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    Caught the start of Eyman’s segment. Then had to run.

    Note to Eyman: This is a loser, forget it.

  74. 147

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    You are a moron. Most pedophiles are straight males that abuse young girls. But, since you’re a moron, I’ll try to explain this to you.

    The anti-discrimination law does not exempt someone from any other laws. One of those laws happens to be the age of consent laws. In Washington that’s age 16, unless the person is in a position of power in relation to the child, in which case, the age of consent is 18. And since you’re a moron, I’ll explain to you what a position of power is.. A teacher can not have sex with a 17 year old or younger student. A boss can not have sex with a 17 year old or younger employee. A coach can not have sex with a 17 year old or younger athelete.

  75. 148

    Richard Pope spews:

    Pardon me for not reading the thread yet but …

    Is Tim Eyman really filing an INITIATIVE to undo HB 2661?

    If so, Eyman is a real DUMBASS. What should be filed is a REFERENDUM.

  76. 149

    Mark spews:

    W @ 57

    Yes, he was told that there was a “minority preference” (or some such language) for the remaining seats in the class. Apparently, you COULD audit the class for something like two weeks on the off chance that the seats weren’t taken in that time, but if they were gone, you’ve wasted two weeks.

  77. 150

    klake spews:

    You Kenndey fans here is a good read.

    Former Democratic Chief Counsel: Ted Kennedy Disgraced Himself
    Jerry Zeifman
    Monday, Jan. 30, 2006
    In my view (as a Democrat and former chief counsel to the House Judiciary Committee), Senator Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., has disgraced himself and our party by misusing his position on the Senate Judiciary Committee to achieve self-serving partisan ends.
    Kennedy was the architect of an unprecedented tactic: using filibusters to polarize the Senate along party lines thus denying the confirmation of qualified conservative judges. In Bush’s first term the Senate Democrats used that tactic successfully against at least 10 nominees for judgeships on circuit courts.
    Fortunately, Kennedy has failed in his partisan attempt to deny Judge Alito a seat on the U.S. Supreme Court. [Editor’s Note: Get the bestselling book about Ted Kennedy’s hypocrisy
    This occurred largely because Democratic Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska formed a non-partisan coalition of seven Democrats and seven Republicans to oppose filibusters, except in extraordinary cases.
    Filibusters first arose after the Civil War as a means of defeating legislation intended to foster desegregation. They were an anathema to those of us who joined Martin Luther King’s famous March on Washington in 1963.
    Fifteen years later during the Clinton administration filibusters were presumably also abhorrent to Senator Kennedy, who then wanted to outlaw them entirely. On Jan. 28, 1998, he argued: ” The president and the Senate do not always agree [on judicial nominations]. But we should resolve these disagreements by voting “yes” or “no.” Three years later Kennedy put politics above principle and became a champion of the filibuster. He also threatened to boycott any work of the Senate that was not essential for national security if a Republican majority was trying to outlaw filibusters by amending the Senate rules.
    Subsequently, in a badgering cross-examination of Judge Alito, Kennedy tried to portray him as an undercover enemy of equal rights for women and minorities.
    For me, Kennedy’s effort to impugn Judge Alito’s integrity was reminiscent of Republican Senator Joe McCarthy, who tarred his victims with the brush of guilt by association. Kennedy’s charge against Alito was based on the fact that 34 years ago, while a reserve officer in the Army, he joined a Princeton alumni group that opposed the banning of ROTC programs from the university’s campus. Some members of the group (other than Alito) wanted Princeton to continue its traditional policy of denying admission to women.
    They also opposed affirmative action programs based on quotas. (Quota-bases programs were subsequently prohibited by the U.S. Supreme Court.)
    On Jan. 17, NewsMax reported a story that most of the liberal media ignored: Kennedy had admitted his own membership in the Owl Club, which does not allow women, and was banned from the Harvard campus. He had paid dues to the all-male club ever since his student days.
    Faced with evidence of his hypocrisy, Kennedy said, “I am going to get out of it as fast as I can.”
    Aside from the Senator’s association with an all-male club there is other more substantial evidence of flaws in Kennedy’s character: Kennedy had been expelled from Harvard for paying a friend to take a Spanish exam for him.
    He also has a history of mistreating women. In July 1969, with Mary Jo Kopechne (his date for the night at a drinking party) beside him in his car, Kennedy drove off the side of a bridge on Cape Cod at Chappaquiddick on Cape Cod.
    When the car began to submerge in water the Senator escaped. Mary Jo remained in the car and drowned.
    At that time Joan Kennedy, the Senator’s wife, was pregnant. Traumatized by the scandal and by her husband’s philandering, she had a miscarriage. She then started to drink her way into alcoholism. Eventually she went into psychiatric treatment and divorced Kennedy.
    To counter the bad reputation he acquired among women because of the Chappaquiddick scandal and his mistreatment of his wife, the Senator pandered to pro-choice feminists – causing his pro-life detractor to quip, “Libertine men always favor abortion.”
    At the Senate’s confirmation hearings Kennedy metaphorically picked up the pro-abortion gauntlet and hoped to deliver Judge Alito’s head on a political platter to Washington’s most radical feminist groups and other major contributors of campaign money to the Democratic Party.
    Finally, anyone interested in the flaws in Kennedy’s character should read “The Senator: My Ten Years With Ted Kennedy,” by Richard Burke. The author describes how he tried to save the Senator from his personal excesses.
    He also provides a behind-the-scenes account of Kennedy’s 1980 unsuccessful primary race against then President Jimmy Carter; which hopelessly polarized the Democratic Party – and helped Ronald Reagan move into the White House.
    During my own career on Capitol Hill I once told House Speaker “Tip” O’Neill in confidence: “I have a low opinion of Senator Kennedy.” He replied discreetly: “The Kennedys are not real Democrats. They have their own party.” [Editor’s Note: Get the bestselling book about Ted Kennedy’s hypocrisy

  78. 151

    Bobblehead spews:

    Richard Pope,

    Eyman is filing both. A referendum to repeal the law and an initiative to ban quotas based on sexual orientation.

  79. 153

    Richard Pope spews:

    I will agree with Aunt Tora @ 46.

    Eyman is doing this INITIATIVE simply for the MONEY.

    Any Tom, Dick or Harry can file a REFERENDUM — which would have a little over 120 days to get signatures — until 90 days after the legislature adjourns — and would only require HALF the signatures of an initiative.

    But an INITIATIVE — you have to write the thing with your own language, as opposed to saying that you want people to vote on the bill that the legislature passed.

    Eyman can make lots of money for himself with an INITIATIVE, but would hardly get a penny as one of the many folks who would try to get signatures for a REFERENDUM.

    I think even Goldy would agree with my analysis on this one.

  80. 156

    Wells spews:

    Jesus loves to burn gays in hell. Jesus has fun watching them fry. It says in the bible that when Jesus died on the cross and raised from the dead, the first thing he said was “Look out homos. I’m pissed and you’re gonna pay”. Then Jesus made friends with rich people and appointed them shamans and male witches.

  81. 157

    Chuck spews:

    by W.@58
    What if I havent actually had relations with a 5 year old, but voiced my PREFERENCE of them in a school job interview?

  82. 159

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    The people did have a say in the passing of this law. I don’t know about you, but every few years I vote for someone to represent me in the state legislature. Democrats control the election because more people voted for them. If the Republicans wanted to stop this law, then perhaps they should have run better campaigns in the last election? Until the Republicans can run a better campaign than the Dems, STFU.

  83. 160

    RUFUS spews:

    running away from the Alito thread.

    Nothing but a bunch of wingnut shills and buffoons over there.

    Comment by For the Clueless— 1/30/06 @ 5:57 pm

    It could be worse. It could be full of loser,Whiner donks.

  84. 161

    Richard Pope spews:

    Okay, Chuck, I will change my opinion after looking at the facts more.

    Goldy is the real DUMBASS here. Tim Eyman has apparently filed both a referendum and an initiative. Goldy only talks about the initiative, and not about the referendum.

    There can be absolutely NOTHING wrong with a REFERENDUM. If the legislature has actually passed a law, the law is either a good law or a bad law. If it is a bad law, then people should be able to vote on whether or not to keep the law. If it is a good law, then there is no harm in allowing the people to have their say.

  85. 162

    Chuck spews:

    Bobblehead@72
    The reason we have the referendum as well as initiatives in this state is so when the government is in maxumum overdrive (gotta see the movie) we can slow things down a bit (reference 695). It is the people that run this, of the people by the people and…yes for the people.

  86. 163

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    Comment by Roger Rabbit— 1/30/06 @ 6:57 pm

    “Sorry, dude, but Eyman gets paid and Goldy doesn’t.

    Eyman = mercenary, whore, hired gun, pimp, bloodsucker
    Goldy = public spirited do-gooder”

    Being a whore isn’t always about money. I’d say Goldy is a whore for attention. I also think that’s part of Eyman’s motivation, as well. Given your narrow minded world view I’m not surprised by your opinions of Eyman and Goldy. As I’ve said before, I think Goldy is much more like Eyman than he’s willing to admit.

  87. 164

    Dr. E spews:

    183
    Alright Klake, you asked for it: where’s the proof that the Iraqi military was amassing on our borders? Where were their destroyers? Steaming towards the US? How about their Air Force?

    Just because the president says that he has the authority to wage a “preemtive strike” doesn’t make it legal, you know.

  88. 166

    Donnageddon spews:

    Hey Chuck, It was a joke!!

    Just like Ann Coulter, I can say:

    Someone needs to put rat poison in Chuck’s Ensure.

    And then say:

    Just joking.

    All you need to guess is:

    Am I, like Ann Coulter really joking?

  89. 168

    Donnageddon spews:

    Klake @ 165 asked the very important question:

    Last question do you equate the Iraq War with The Island State of Melos in 416 BC?
    Donnageddon could you give me your point of view on that question?

    WOW Now That is a Deep Penetrating question!!

    Donnageddon’s answer next!!

  90. 173

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Last Conservative Standing @4

    “If Eyman is an initiative whore (and he is), then what kind of whore are you?”

    Sorry, dude, but Eyman gets paid and Goldy doesn’t.

    Eyman = mercenary, whore, hired gun, pimp, bloodsucker
    Goldy = public spirited do-gooder

  91. 174

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    It’s all about money, dude. If you get money, you’re a whore. If you don’t, it’s love.

  92. 175

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    That means because Republican girls marry for money, they’re all whores. Because Democrats have no money, anyone who marries a Democrat does it for love.

  93. 176

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    74

    “There can be absolutely NOTHING wrong with a REFERENDUM. If the legislature has actually passed a law, the law is either a good law or a bad law. If it is a bad law, then people should be able to vote on whether or not to keep the law. If it is a good law, then there is no harm in allowing the people to have their say.”

    Richard — would you have felt the same way about letting southern voters hold a referendum on the Voting Rights Act back in ’64? This is no different.

  94. 177

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Yeah, right, let’s let southern bigots vote on whether blacks should be allowed to vote. Of course, blacks won’t be allowed to vote on this referendum. Way to go, Richard. Popular democracy in action. Put it up to the people to decide whether bigots should get their way. Yay for Richard, who has reached a new low in crass insensitivity toward his fellow humans, even for him. No wonder Richard has never gotten elected to anything — and never will.

  95. 179

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Richard — I voted for your OPPONENT for Port Commissioner. I only mention that to rub your face in it.

  96. 180

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    75

    The PEOPLE are gonna kick your sorry ass back into the sewer you crawled out of, Cheesy Chuckie.

  97. 181

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey, I have an idea! Let’s hold a popular referendum on whether Bush’s electoral votes should be revoked! His approval rating has slipped below 40% again.

  98. 183

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Which makes me wonder WHAT THE HELL are those 39% thinking? Oh, I forgot, they don’t think.

  99. 185

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    The voters in Washington have already self-corrected. Last I checked, Republicans controlled both the House and Senate until the last election. There is nothing maximum overdrive about the state government, it’s merely representing a majority of the state’s citizens.

  100. 186

    Seeking the truth spews:

    Our founding fathers created this country as a constitutional republic for one reason. That is to protect individuals from the tyranny of the majority. Equal treatment is fundamental to our success of this country.

    The sooner peopel quit worrying about what other people are doing and take care of their own lives the better off we will be.

  101. 188

    Richard Pope spews:

    MAYBE DWIGHT PELZ SHOULD DRESS UP LIKE A KLANSMAN:

    Rep. [Sam] Hunt [D-Olympia] expressed outrage over the proposal.

    “Tim Eyman, have you no shame?” Hunt said. “Eyman is stooping to a new low just to line his pockets and get a mailing list of bigots.”

    Hunt described himself as “pissed but sober,” then added, referring to Eyman having dressed up as a prisoner during a legislative hearing last week: “If Tim Eyman is fond of wearing costumes, I suggest his next one be a white sheet and a pointy white hat. I just think it is a sad day for Washington what he is doing.”

    http://theolympian.com/apps/pb.....S/60130002

    I think it would be more appropriate for Dwight Pelz, incoming Chair of the Washington State Democrats, to dress up like a Klansman.

    Simply use Hunt’s twisted logic here. Pelz has run against minorities in each of his five elections (two to the State Senate, two to the King County Council, and his recent failed bid to the Seattle City Council). The last two races put Pelz head-to-head against an African-American.

    Therefore, if Pelz likes to run against minorities — and especially if he tried to unseat the only African-American on the Seattle City Council — PELZ MUST BE A KLANSMAN!

    Actually, it is much more logical for Pelz to be a Klansman, than it is for Eyman to be a Klansman. Pelz ran against blacks, and the KKK is opposed to blacks. Eyman opposes gay rights, but a lot of blacks also oppose gay rights.

    Maybe Dwight Pelz and Christine Gregoire should both wear KKK robes and hoods. This would be an easy wardrobe choice for Gregoire — her Kappa Delta sorority robes from the 1960’s are very similar to Klan robes. And Sam Hunt could at least wear a dunce cap.

  102. 189

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    You think Dubya is unpopular now, just wait until his deficits drive up interest rates. This is what will happen:

    1. Higher interest rates will increase the cost of debt service on the national debt, driving the deficits even higher;
    2. Hundreds of thousands of people who bought super-high-priced housing on zero-down interest-only ARMS will be unable to make their mortgage payments, triggering massive defaults and a multi-billion-dollar government bailout of the banks that will drive the deficit even higher;
    3. China, fearing a collapse of the dollar, will back away from buying U.S. debt, forcing interest rates even higher, which will drive the deficit even higher;
    4. The interest rate/deficit monster, now eating its own tail, eventually will cause the U.S. economy to tumble into a major recession.

    If we’re lucky, the economic shit will hit the fan just before the 2008 election, resulting in Hillary defeating Jeb Bush by 70% to 10%, with an independent candidate picking up the other 20%. The Republicans will get ZERO electoral votes, and lose both houses of Congress; the entire Supreme Court will resign because they haven’t received their paychecks for over a year. Democrats will spend the next forty years cleaning up the GOP’s messes, and the Republican Party will disappear forever.

    I LOVE IT!!! Well, the part about Republicans disappearing, anyway.

  103. 192

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hard to tell what’ll wipe out the Republicans first, interest rates or the Rapture, but I’d put my money on interest rates. Can’t wait for the Rapture to come, though!

    WHOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHH!!!

    144,000 Republicans GONE just like that!!!

    God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture, God puh-leeze send the Rapture …

  104. 196

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    Dino lost. Get over it. If you want to blame someone, blame the shitty lawyers the Republicans hired. They had no evidence of voter fraud and didn’t even try to get it. They hoped they could wave unsupported theories and conjectures and somehow blind the judge to the law.

  105. 199

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Wow! This thread already has over 100 comments! That’s more than Stefan’s pathetic little blog gets in a whole month. Sucky Politics is so bad even Stefan doesn’t read it. He reads HorsesAss instead. HA! HA! HA!

  106. 200

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Hey Steffie, how come you poisoned the lettuce in your garden? Don’t you know that could get you 5 years in Walla2? You’re an anti-animal bigot!

  107. 201

    Chuck spews:

    Bobblehead@100
    The fraud was as plain as the nose on my face (I have a fair nose) but I guess you can live with that one congrats on the corruption. We will THROW her out next election!

  108. 203

    Bobblehead spews:

    Chuck,

    It was? Please provide your legally submittable evidence of widespread fraud that would have changed the election results.

    Thanks.

  109. 206

    Donnageddon spews:

    “Comment by Mark the Reddick”

    That is hilarious!!! Thanks!

    ********
    “If you’re talking to “Mark the Redneck,” please either use his full name or “MTR.” Otherwise, I think you’re talking to me.”

    Comment by Mark — 1/30/06 @ 5:14 pm

    Ah, the never ending (M)(m)ark(s) debate.

  110. 208

    YO spews:

    YOUR RIGHT BOBBLEHEAD THE REPUBLICANS DO NEED BETTER LAWYERS THATS WHY TOMMORROW ALITO WILL BECOME A MEMBER OF THE HIGHEST COURT IN THE NATION. AND IF WE ARE LUCKY BUSH WILL GET ONE MORE CHOICE BEFORE HIS TERM IS UP THEN YOU ASSHOLES WILL REALLY SCREAMING JUST LIKE DEAN LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSERS

  111. 209

    lower case mark spews:

    Belltowner, God dammit, I’m on a diet and this is why.
    Take one Hebrew National Dinner Frank (Goldys fav) and split in half.
    Fry up nicely in a pan. Take two of the larger pieces of
    Couer D’Alene sourdough sliced round pieces and smear mayonaisse
    and your favorite mustard, and toast. Slide the giant weiner
    onto the bread & close. Pour a twenty ounce glass of 35 degree
    2% milk and proceed to chow. MMMMMMMMMM

  112. 210

    Donnageddon spews:

    “Take two of the larger pieces of Couer D’Alene sourdough sliced round pieces and smear mayonaisse and your favorite mustard, and toast. Slide the giant weiner onto the bread & close”

    I just know that erotic description made MTR horny.

  113. 211

    Drivel spews:

    Chuck @ 105. ‘As clear as the nose on your face’? Difficult to see your nose as your head is usually so far up your ass or you are on your knees ‘brown nosing’ your neocon idols.

  114. 212

    lower case mark spews:

    Okay, back to business. I don’t care much for fags. I don’t care much for fat short hair teacher looking lesbians, but I dig hot 20
    year olds cleaning carpet. Should I send Eyman any money? Please
    help.

  115. 213

    Drivel spews:

    YO @ 112. You believe in luck? Then I hope the world is ‘lucky’ and your monkey king gets his balls cut off, the sooner the better.

  116. 214

    Chuck spews:

    Drivel@111
    Becaus my preference is 30 year old women…unlike yours…I noticed you zoomed in on the 5 year old example like a hawk! It is guys like you I want to protect society from.

  117. 215

    Dr. E spews:

    96
    I’m a-gwine tuh pu-rayyy with ya… The sooner them fascists is gone, the bettuh.

  118. 216

    Wells spews:

    God ain’t a-listenin to prayurs theeza days. He’s got his I-pod on and isa listenin to banjo music, plinka plink plinky plink… Prayurs are all insincere, the ones comin from the Krischuns anyways, fascist mofos is real boring always the same god damn prayurs, like it don’t get old and stupider every time they need to brown nose the old man.

  119. 217

    RUFUS spews:

    Pray all you want just dont pray in public school. Wait until the new SCOTUS makes it legal.

  120. 218

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    -And don’t kid yourself. “Civil Rights” has been twisted into special privilege. –

    -Can you moonbats explain to me why someone should get special privilege based on where they put their dick? –

    Notice how mesa asked Mark The Short-necked Republican just what those “special privileges” were – four hours ago – and the guy doesn’t even try to answer, despite he made the claim twice?

    If MTR actually believed what he posted, dontcha think he would have answered that basic question by now?

    Talk about useless feigning trolls.

    Could we get a REAL conservative to weigh in on this subject?

  121. 219

    dj spews:

    Chuck,

    “The fraud was as plain as the nose on my face (I have a fair nose)”

    …probably means it’s time to get your meds adjusted again.

  122. 220

    W. spews:

    “Pray all you want just dont pray in public school. Wait until the new SCOTUS makes it legal.”

    You can pray all you want in school … you just can’t force others to pray along with you.

  123. 221

    W. spews:

    “Can you moonbats explain to me why someone should get special privilege based on where they put their dick? ”

    Why don’t you explain why you get federal marriage recognition and the cooresponding benefits simply because of where YOU put your dick?

  124. 222

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Special privilege means that the Excel crowd goes into high gear. Every business and gummint agency will have “targets” on spreadsheets covering everything from hiring, to promotions to pay and everything else. They call them “targets”, but they are quotas pure and simple. Merit has ZERO role in any discussion. The only thing that will matter is whether you’re willing to claim that your dick is brown when you pull it out.

  125. 223

    Richard Pope spews:

    If Tim Eyman gets his REFERENDUM on the ballot, I hope all the moonbat Eyman haters VOTE NO on it and tell all their friends to VOTE NO on it.

  126. 224

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    W – Because the family is a necessary condition for ANY civilized culture. Butt fucking does not make a family. Understand?

  127. 225

    Dr. E spews:

    Hey Mark, don’t forget that there are plenty of heteros that go for a little rump release every now and then, too. It’s been going on for millenia. Ever seen the little stone figurines from the Inca empire depicting anal sex?

  128. 226

    Dr. E spews:

    I’ve also yet to see any credible evidence that homosexual relationships destroy the fabric of societies. Sure, if 100% of the population went homosexual, there’d be no procreation, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.

  129. 227

    Dr. E spews:

    And remember, Mark, the definition of a dysfunctional family is “2 or more members”.

  130. 228

    Dr. E spews:

    Traditional families are also the source of all incidences of incest. And wife beating. And, … oh, never mind.

  131. 229

    horseshead spews:

    The law is bullshit legislation. Someone has to show (that means prove) me any case that would have been affected by the law in the last 29 years. This is the only reason I opposed this bill. I could care less about “special privileges” I think that any law that you pass requires resources. Resources that cost money… i do see where some people would feel that this law was needed.

    However, to repeal it would and should be near impossible, even for a stupid fool like Timmy I-Man to pull off. i do not intend to support timmy in his latest foolishness. unless he comes out of the closet…in which case you can count me in.

    That’s it from me a humble conservative

  132. 230

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    Geez E… all that fancy book larnin’ I got you’d figger I’da run across them Inca figurines. Is that what passes for “education” down there at Bong U? And you have the fucking nerve to take taxpayer money? Shit…

  133. 231

    Dr. E spews:

    133
    Nope, I saw them at one of them publicly funded mee-yu-see-ums. ‘Course, it wasn’t in the U-S-of-A, so you don’t need to worry. And, since sexual behavior has basically nothing to do with my educational agenda, my students down here at Bong U aren’t larnin’ ’bout that from me. (They also don’t get to shoot up in class, either.)

  134. 232

    Dr. E spews:

    By the way, I should add above (131) that there are probably some incidences of incest in homosexual families, but I haven’t heard of them. Nevertheless, that’d just go to prove my point at 130.

  135. 233

    Donnageddon spews:

    Rufus said

    “Pray all you want just dont pray in public school. Wait until the new SCOTUS makes it legal.”

    It is stuff like that that makes you a certified Kool Aid Drunk wingnut, bought and paid by the RNC.

    GIVE ME ONE… Let Me say it twice… GIVE ME ONE example of a person denied the right to pray (to any “god” of their choice) in a public school.

    Unless they want to make it an official part of the school day, they are as free as wingnuts on HA to pray as long as they want.

    Prove me wrong RUFUS “The Mayor Of Paid-By-The-RNC”

  136. 234

    JCH spews:

    I’ve also yet to see any credible evidence that homosexual relationships destroy the fabric of societies. Sure, if 100% of the population went homosexual, there’d be no procreation, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.

    Comment by Dr. E — 1/30/06 @ 9:21 pm [Sooooooooo, A few hundred million fags with AIDs around the Western Free World doesn't seem to be a problem??]

  137. 235

    dj spews:

    horseshead @ 132,

    “The law is bullshit legislation. Someone has to show (that means prove) me any case that would have been affected by the law in the last 29 years.”

    If you believe that the law would have had no effect over the last 29 years, then why object to it? Shouldn’t it just stand as-is and provide protection in the event of future violations?

    I mean, sometimes laws are made to codify rights and responsibilities even in the absence of known “problems.”

  138. 236

    Donnageddon spews:

    The Day The Make Sticking A Dick In An Asshole A Crime Is The Day They Make Republican Party Illegal.

    MTR knows what I mean *wink*, You old cross dressing sodomite!

  139. 237

    JCH spews:

    “Can you moonbats explain to me why someone should get special privilege based on where they put their dick? ”

    Why don’t you explain why you get federal marriage recognition and the cooresponding benefits simply because of where YOU put your dick?

    Comment by W. — 1/30/06 @ 9:15 pm {W, It’s nice to see liberal fag Democrats sticking up for gay anal “butt sex”. Your really “came in from behind” on those evil Republican trolls!! Don’t let any AIDs diseases stop you from bending over and getting the “Tookie Williams love” that you queers enjoy!!]

  140. 238

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH “A few hundred million fags with AIDs around the Western Free World doesn’t seem to be a problem??”

    Not as mush as the Republican’s spreading it to their congregations!

    Har Har Har Har

    Just Kidding! Ann Coulter is the original source of AIDs.

  141. 239

    dj spews:

    MTR @ 127

    “Because the family is a necessary condition for ANY civilized culture.

    Well, then, that would make people like you socially dead (as in useless to society as a result of being incapable of forming a socially acceptable family).

    I mean, you either made a really bad choice when forming your family, or, more likely, you drove you ex-wife to drug abuse. Hell, given the lack of integrity you have shown here (i.e. not paying off on bets), I would be surprised if you were your exs meth dealer.

    “Butt fucking does not make a family. Understand?”

    So? It doesn’t preclude creating a family either. Especially now, with assisted reproductive technologies, one’s mode of sexual gratification is dislinked from reproduction.

    Holy shit are you one stupid fucking redneck!

  142. 240

    Dr. E spews:

    JCH
    I’m gonna answer you like this:
    a;lweifn;aosijd;fgsi dzjfivas r;oifvjs[droigcsmo fxijv;k sjhd4z;ertocqfiwm4p9 vjk;hgavsefasklsf34p coasdofj qnpoi34wurv[0cs9ciurfk[vo mdx;lgf2;k3qrcxa[po9rsiczf0v8s me[498utcnqpiuhrgfpvxoc;ifc][c0-q2ipodthgvfpqco[3[cr0mse9i;gvoiwj34pocrm[szifm[oq

    Okay?

  143. 241

    Donnageddon spews:

    MAn, someone really needs to put cyanide into Ann Coulter’s morning cup of coffee.

    Just kidding!

    (s)he should be bludgeoned to death with her gay lover MTR.

    What a great picture that would make!

    Just kidding!

  144. 242

    Dr. E spews:

    Don –

    You know, Frank Zappa once said that AIDS was either a) descended to Earth from outer space, b) developed by a bio-chemical lab to rake in the profits with the vaccine, or c) transmitted to humans via monkeys, as many attested in the 80s.

    His next question was “I wanna know, who’s been plooking the monkeys?”

  145. 243

    Dr. E spews:

    But, to be serious for a minute here:
    I wanna know what this “unitary executive” theory is all about. Why is it a good thing? Really, I wanna know, especially since we’re gonna get its chief advocate on the Supreme Court as of tomorrow.

  146. 245

    JCH spews:

    Don, I see you have no problems paying for the medical bills for liberal Democrat gays with AIDs. So why do I have to pay? These queers knew the AID story when they “Tookie Loved” their fag boyfriend. Let them deal with their own self inflicted medical conditions.

  147. 246

    klake spews:

    Traditional families are also the source of all incidences of incest. And wife beating. And, … oh, never mind.

    Comment by Dr. E— 1/30/06 @ 9:24 pm

    Dr. E. you disappeared last night before your answered the last post. Question what type of doctor do you claim to be and what countries did you visited in the Middle East. Last question do you equate the Iraq War with The Island State of Melos in 416 BC? Were the Melos citizens gay like the Greeks or the other way around?

  148. 247

    Dr. E spews:

    JCH
    We’re not asking you to pay. If you don’t want to pay, take your case to the IRS.

    PS: fp1o348ucfnpiusdfhvsjd[eprcdbt7 ges98dzyufoicjv a;lreij;bvlxcjkf;m ‘i34qw0cnapsiz: LKIEJm[cfo qrt98ufsiudhp owaij4u[as;oiufnpoaweiunpv8uawebpf98 upbivuhabp iuhfapo8 u3np98uans vioasd ikuhpfbsareiu8fuq0239rc09sdufoi ajsdpfaioj np9384ujvc9usdvoic jaeniugfh3q bp89a[cj0w9eifo [awief ibusad

    Alright?

  149. 248

    JCH spews:

    Dr E, How did the AIDs virus get from African monkeys to African blacks? Perhaps a little African “Tookie Williams love”? Well, what an inpressive culture!! Kind of like Detroit!!!

  150. 249

    SP Fan spews:

    We the people already voted on this issue in 1997, it was Initiative 677 and We The People Said NO!

    We the people also voted to abolish Affirmative Action, it was Initiative 200 and We the People Said Yes!

    So now the Legislature is looking for more special interest gratification to line their pockets.

    Fortunately for We the People we have Tim Eyman, that will let We the People Vote on this issue again! Especially since the corrupt government will not do what we say to do!

  151. 250

    JCH spews:

    Dr E, You have to be a “guvment” hack, as I have no doubt you have no marketable skills in the private sector. Let me guess: public sector”educator”????

  152. 251

    JCH spews:

    JCH
    I’m gonna answer you like this:
    a;lweifn;aosijd;fgsi dzjfivas r;oifvjs[droigcsmo fxijv;k sjhd4z;ertocqfiwm4p9 vjk;hgavsefasklsf34p coasdofj qnpoi34wurv[0cs9ciurfk[vo mdx;lgf2;k3qrcxa[po9rsiczf0v8s me[498utcnqpiuhrgfpvxoc;ifc][c0-q2ipodthgvfpqco[3[cr0mse9i;gvoiwj34pocrm[szifm[oq

    Okay?

    Comment by Dr. E — 1/30/06 @ 9:41 pm [Mr. X, Bill, and Don, I think Dr. E just stated he wanted some "Tookie Anal Love" from his liberal Democrat fag friends. Step up, boys!!!]

  153. 252

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH “you have no problems paying for the medical bills for liberal Democrat gays with AIDs. So why do I have to pay? These queers knew the AID story when they “Tookie Loved” their fag boyfriend. Let them deal with their own self inflicted medical conditions.”

    Well, I am an equal opportunity Christian. Even the Republican gays, and heterosexuals who contract AIDS need all the help we can give them.

    Oh, and JCH, I hate to shock you, but even Republican drug addicts get AIDS. I am willing to help them too. And I am willing to vote for you to be taxed to pay for it.

    No need to thank me.

    It is the Christian thing to do.

  154. 254

    W. spews:

    JCH talks more about butt sex than any homosexual I’ve ever known.

    One could almost think he’s … obsessed … about it.

  155. 255

    Donnageddon spews:

    JCH said

    How did the AIDs virus get from African monkeys to African blacks? Perhaps a little African “Tookie Williams love”? Well, what an inpressive culture!! Kind of like Detroit!!

    I am a follower of Christ, but you JCH, can go to Hell. I wouldn’t spit on you to stop a fever you had.

  156. 257

    klake spews:

    PS: fp1o348ucfnpiusdfhvsjd[eprcdbt7 ges98dzyufoicjv a;lreij;bvlxcjkf;m ‘i34qw0cnapsiz: LKIEJm[cfo qrt98ufsiudhp owaij4u[as;oiufnpoaweiunpv8uawebpf98 upbivuhabp iuhfapo8 u3np98uans vioasd ikuhpfbsareiu8fuq0239rc09sdufoi ajsdpfaioj np9384ujvc9usdvoic jaeniugfh3q bp89a[cj0w9eifo [awief ibusad

    Alright?

    Comment by Dr. E— 1/30/06 @ 9:50 pm
    DR E. could you retranslate that last paragraph?

  157. 258

    Donnageddon spews:

    Klake had questions???

    Did it involve being able to color within the lines? Or picking the correct sounds for farm animals??

    Or was it a loaded question derived from the RNC talking points?

  158. 260

    klake spews:

    Or was it a loaded question derived from the RNC talking points?

    Comment by Donnageddon— 1/30/06 @ 10:07 pm
    How sweet Donnageddon!

  159. 261

    Dr. E spews:

    Hey Mark, sorry if I offended you at 128, above… those little stone carvings are studied by folks involved in a discipline called “Anthropology”, though. Last I checked, we do have a few publicly funded courses in Antrhopology down here at Bong U, but I haven’t checked the textbooks or lecture notes. My guess would be that, if you stay away from any class that has “Sexuality” in its title (and you could find those in the Psych and Soc. departments, too) you’d probably be safe.

  160. 262

    klake spews:

    Last question do you equate the Iraq War with The Island State of Melos in 416 BC?
    Donnageddon could you give me your point of view on that question?

  161. 263

    Mark The Redneck spews:

    E – No thanks. I go to serious schools to get serious education in things that matter. Technical stuff way beyond anything you can comprehend. Tough work, but it pays a shitload.

  162. 264

    Dr. E spews:

    Klake, you’ll probably be a bit disappointed in my response, since I don’t like to give away information that could be potentially identifying to complete strangers. Suffice it to say that my doctorate qualifies me to teach in university academic units found in colleges like “Letters and Sciences”, “Arts and Humanities”, and the like. It also gets me a bunch of extra letters after my name, and I get to hear people call me “doctor”. Aside from that, it’s no great shakes.

    Regarding my adventures in the Middle East, well, I don’t even tell the INS where I’ve been on my re-entry cards — I figure they can go ahead and look at my airplane tickets to see where I was last (plus all those stamps in my passports). I refused to fill that out once they put that section on the landing cards back in the 90s (when it was optional); now that it no longer says “optional”, I just carelessly overlook it. You know, those NSA guys (the same ones who don’t seem to understand the wording of the 4th Amendment) are probably churning the contents of this blog through one of their supercomputers right now, so why load them up with more trigger words?

    (Now, if we were drinking a beer at DL, you might find out more.)

    As for your question about Milos, I don’t quite see what you’re getting at, so I couldn’t really answer.

Radio Goldy

I will be on The Kirby Wilbur Show, Friday morning at 7AM, 570-KVI.

Kirby and I will be discussing the Irons controversy… and I expect Kirby to be none too pleased with me. Should be interesting.

UPDATE: (6:25 AM)
It’s in the P-I, (and reprinted on MSNBC.com,) and I just recorded an interview for KIRO radio. So the story is out there, and voters can make up their minds for themselves. David Jr.’s other sister, Janet A. Irons, has left some comments in the thread defending her brother, and Brian Derdowski has chimed in too.

UPDATE: (7:42 AM)
Kirby was gracious with me, as always. He also had the sister who likes David on, and Janet A. seemed a little… um… angry. I tried to be a bit apologetic about delving into her family feud. I certainly wouldn’t want anybody exposing my family’s eccentricities… but then, I’m not asking voters to choose me to run a $3.4 billion government, larger than that of thirteen states.

UPDATE: (9:06 AM)
A reader just told me that David Irons was on KIRO radio claiming that the Ron Sims campaign fed me this story, and I want to categorically deny this in the strongest terms possible. This is my story… I heard the rumors, I followed up on them, and I determined the timing of my post. I called Brian Derdowski for some background on his race against Irons, and when I brought up the issue, he said I better talk to the family, and he gave me Di’s number. When I finally spoke to the family, I was shocked by what they told me.

That is the genesis of this story. Period.

And really… how could anybody read Joni Balter’s column and not be curious about exactly what the “family matter” was, that was so serious that it prevents a mother from voting for her own son?

Comments

  1. 268

    dj spews:

    Josef @ 3

    “The kind of question I haven’t asked yet, the kind requiring Shaun Alexander football-juggling skills during a live Sunday Night Football game.”

    For crying out loud. Are you off your meds again, son?

  2. 270

    dj spews:

    Josef @ 5

    “You will see tomorrow morning, dj.”

    No you won’t, son. I’ll be snuggled up in my bed, and if I wake up to find you next to me, I be forced to snap your neck. :-)

  3. 271

    Andrew spews:

    I’m no republican, nor am I a fan of any republican, but that info that you are going on and on about in terms of Irons better be really good, because the last thing we need is a leftie acting like the kind of reds that we despise.

    You better be sure that he did what you say that he did.

  4. 273

    dj spews:

    Andrew @ 7

    “I’m no republican, nor am I a fan of any republican, but that info that you are going on and on about in terms of Irons better be really good, because the last thing we need is a leftie acting like the kind of reds that we despise.

    You better be sure that he did what you say that he did. “

    If you read Goldy’s post, you will find that most of his report is about what has been said to him by Iron’s family members and coworkers. Goldy isn’t making claims, he is reporting claims made by other people in Iron’s life (and sometimes summarizing the points).

    I should mention that Iron’s family has made these claims to a number of mainstream media outlets, and they began making these claims at least 7 years ago (according to Irons sister Janet). So, in some ways, the real story is why the MSM has been so sheepish about putting this story front and center. (Because if the claims of Irons’ parents and sister Di and coworkers are true, Irons may have issues with being truthful and with violence; and, then we really really don’t want Irons in any kind of public office whatsoever!)

  5. 274

    Richard Pope spews:

    The parents of David Irons, Jr. are provably false on other matters. David Irons Sr. (his father) claims to be a Republican. Janet C Irons (his mother) claims to be an Independent.

    I looked all of the Ironses up on both the PDC database and FEC database. It can be a bit difficult to tell David Jr apart from David Sr, so I doublechecked all of the questionable David contributions.

    Bottom line — every single political contribution (and there have been a few dozen) by David Irons Sr and Janet C Irons in the last five years has been to DEMOCRATS. On the other hand — not surprisingly — every single political contribution by David Irons Jr has been to REPUBLICANS.

    If David Irons Sr and Janet C Irons are lying about their political affiliation — which can be objectively disproven by unquestionable facts — how can we believe anything they have to say about a subjective matter such as a family feud?

  6. 275

    dj spews:

    Pope @ 10

    Lying? Sorry, but you evidence doesn’t really amount to much. You are making some pretty strong assumptions there? For example, their friend Derdowski was GOP but ran as a Democrat. That doesn’t mean that they voted all Democarat in those elections.

    Here is an example of you logic failing: I am an Independent. The only time in my life I’ve donated money to a party was for the WA recount (to the Dems, of course). But I voted for you in the primary (knowing full well that you are a Republican). Therefore, your logic doesn’t universally apply.

  7. 276

    Erik spews:

    The Seattle PI this morning just confirmed that Iron’s mother backed up Goldy’s rendition of the attack. Wild. . .

    Usually even criminals have their mothers cover up their dirty laundry for them.

  8. 277

    Richard Pope spews:

    I have a lot of respect for Brian Derdowski, and frankly wish that David Irons Jr. hadn’t run against him back in 1999. That said, Derdowski’s posting leaves out a lot of information.

    The Ironses were on pretty good terms prior to David Jr running against Derdowski. Obviously, this created a lot of friction (to say the least), since David Jr’s parents were long-time supporters of Derdowksi, and Di Irons (David Jr’s sister) worked for Derdowski.

    But Derdowski didn’t share any of his observations of David Jr PRIOR to the time that David Jr decided to run against Derdowski in 1999. Keep in mind that, as of 1999, Derdowski had served six years on the King County Council. And David Jr had served eight years on the Issaquah School Board — the largest school system in Derdowski’s council district (elected to 4 year terms in 1991 and 1995).

    Goldy says this incident happened sometime in the early 1990’s. It obviously happened before 1995, since the Irons family sold their cable company in that year. David Jr ran for re-election to the Issaquah School Board in 1995. If David Jr had really assaulted his mother a year or two (or three or four or whatever) earlier, this would certainly have been relevant to his fitness to serve on a school board. And his mother would have been motivated to speak out against him.

    But in 1995, David Jr’s parents backed his re-election to the Issaquah School Board. They certainly didn’t denounce him. It was only in 1999, when David Jr decided to run against their daughter Di’s boss (Derdowski) that David Sr and Janet C started letting these allegations loose against their son.

    Add this to David Sr’s misrepresentation that he is sitll a Republican and Janet C’s misrepresentation that she is merely an Independent (when both are 100% Democrat supporters for the last five or more years), and I just can’t believe the negative personal attacks they have made against their son in more recent years.

  9. 278

    Richard Pope spews:

    DJ @ 11

    If you called yourself a REPUBLICAN, it would be hard to believe if you had given money to the Democrats in 2004 and nothing to any Republicans. If someone made THIRTEEN contributions to Democrats in the last five years, and NONE to Republicans, then it would be fair to call that person (David Irons Jr) a LIAR if he said he has been a REPUBLICAN during this same period of time.

    And when someone makes THIRTY contributions to Democrats and NONE to Republicans during the last five years, it would be fair to call that person (Janet C Irons) a LIAR if they were trying to pass themself off as an INDEPENDENT. Especially if that person’s husband is falsely claiming to be a REPUBLICAN under similar circumstances.

  10. 279

    dj spews:

    Richard Pope,

    Sure…it COULD be that David Jr. is being subject to attacks (probably a conspiracy, huh?) by his mother, father, one sister, one nephew, coworkers and other acquaintances. Or it could be that David “did it” and another sister backs him up. The former sure seems more probable!

    And, the, ahem, exagerations on Jr.’s Resume, seem to support that he has the “veracity” issues. The “donating to 100% Democratic candidates” angle seems pretty silly. People can self identify themselves any way they want. And, didn’t David Sr. work for Derdowski’s campaign in 2003? How many of the contribution were to Derdowski (who switched from GOP to Dem)?

  11. 283

    Jimmy spews:

    :He didn’t hit his mom… HE HAD A DIABETIC SEIZURE!!!!!!! What a fucking laugh. That is the lamest thing I have ever heard. But you know, the most outragous stories are usually the ones that are believed. But just making that statement means that he admits the incident happened.

  12. 284

    Jimmy spews:

    Oh sorry… my eyes still have sleep in them. HE claimed SHE (mom) had the seizure….where are my glasses dammit!

  13. 286

    Libertarian spews:

    This deal kind of reminds me of that drunk driving rap some Dems in Maine brought up at the last minute in 2000: they’re last-minute attempt to hurt Bush’s election cnahces backfired on the whole Democrat Parery, and Dubya got elected.

    Goldy, you may actually be helping this guy get elected. Did you consider that?

  14. 287

    For the Clueless spews:

    A violent temper, resume inflation, servile to building interests, a dirty tricks player – anyone with any sense would reject this guy.

  15. 288

    headless lucy spews:

    I just spent a lot of money on fixing the coolant system in my car, yet there is still a small leak. For a modest contribution to David Irons,Jr.’s campaign, do you think he could give me a professional opinion on what’s wrong with it?

    Maybe he’s not fit for public office but we compassionate progressives look for the good in EVERYONE — even a mother-beating mechanic.

  16. 289

    mulesass spews:

    headless lucy: we compassionate progressives look for the good in EVERYONE — even a mother-beating mechanic

    Not to mention that someone like that could actually be a role model for Goldy and the HA “team”. The only way this blog can go is up.

  17. 290

    Jimmy spews:

    You know what. I think Irons is going to loose this thing. I just heard the KIRO piece. The mother beating seemed to be the focal point (is it is in alot of respects). What this does though is use the classic neocon tactict. If the story is repeated enough before the election it will be remembered when the voter votes.

  18. 291

    For the Clueless spews:

    I’m not asking voters to choose me to run a $3.4 billion government, larger than that of thirteen states.

    Exactly! How can anyone in their right mind allow a neophyte like Irons do this?

    Ron Sims has demonstrated that he can do it responsibly and fairly! AAA credit rating from S&P anyone?

  19. 292

    Jon spews:

    Best line from the PI article:

    “A Sims campaign spokesman declined to comment on the situation.”

    Ron Sims may be many things, but he’s not dumb.

  20. 293

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    I gotta say that politics — even the discussion of politics — is a dirty, messy business. All of you Lefties reveling in your moments of schadenfreude are lucky that nobody digs into your past — especially in cases where there are two sides to the story.

    You’re not running for office? OK. Not a public figure? Maybe, maybe not. There is a slippery slope here if you are a frequent poster to a public forum and especially if you are a “known” character. Goldy? He SEEKS OUT the limelight. He is definitely a pseudo-quasi-celebrity and “in the public eye.” What if some intrepid junior reporter with no formal training and poltical motivations wants to dig around his life?

    There is lots to find about everyone — property records, court records, business records, BBB complaints… At least those are documented. You could also dig up and interview some ex-spouse, ex-gf/bf or estranged children.

    Goldy,

    Just because the PI picked up your story doesn’t mean it IS a story. The story they’re picking up is your blog posting. If you had an editor, the first thing s/he’d say to you is, “you’d better have damn good proof.” And if they go after you, I’d check with a lawyer and make sure they can’t pierce the veil of software your company for its assets. After all, you do use its resources for the blog and give it credit for the design.

  21. 294

    prr spews:

    Goldy,

    You came off like a complete asshole this morning and I was happy to see that you have enraged many people by pulling this cheap bullshit.

    You may be doing more for the Irons Campaign than any of his supporters could possibly have wanted..

    BTW, this little stunt has cemented you as the groveling little cock-sucker I always knew you were. Hopefully, your family problems will be aired with as much exposure….

  22. 295

    Mountain Man spews:

    Lucy @ 23

    I’ve got some bad news for you. Your 1971 VW Bus is air cooled, there is no coolant. Most likely there is some type of blockage in the fan housing. Have you been near the King County administration building lately? I ask because, over the past year or so we’ve seen many cases of unfilled public records requests blocking airflow. Last November one of my guys found 13 absentee ballots causing overheating in a Porsche. The Strange part was they all used the address of the King County Administration Building on them. Any idea why?

  23. 296

    Jimmy spews:

    prr you are such a piece of shit. Goldy actually came off as genuine. You are the worst of the piece of shit trolls on here. It is such a joke that you try to spin it a different way. Whatever…..

  24. 297

    spews:

    Goldy-

    You too were gracious this morning on Wilbur’s show.

    Janet A. Irons got to speak her peace…and it sure didn’t seem like she had any great defense for brother David. Look…I’m sorry they have problems…just about every family does. But like Goldy says…Not everybody’s problem children are asking to be allowed to run the most important county in the State.
    Irons=All Hat…No Cattle.

    BTW-

    Hey “Josef”…what’s your “BOBMBSHELL” ‘ya little puke? Put up or shut up.

  25. 298

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    prr @ 28

    You may have a point. Because the accusations are SO extreme, the public will divide into segments:

    1. Dems who believe anything. Vote Sims.
    2. Dems disgusted with Goldy’s tactics that assume Dem Party behind it. Won’t vote or will go Green to make a point.
    3. Dems who will switch in disgust? Not likely.
    4. Independents. Could decide to wash their hands of this whole unseemly thing — Sims’ political dishonesty vs. Irons’ perceived personal issues.
    5. GOP who are swayed by Goldy. Not many, but of those who are… few for Sims, most won’t vote and a smidge for Lange (for fun and to make a point).
    6. GOP who don’t believe Goldy (or don’t care). Vote Irons.
    7. GOP who were apathetic before, but are now disgusted. Vote Irons instead of not voting before.

    There is a scenario in which this COULD backfire and give Irons the job.

    To all of you who were going to vote Irons, but who now won’t: Vote Green and help tear down the Democratic Machine in King County (by fracturing the Dem Party with a legitimate third option)

  26. 299

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    I missed the interview this AM!! When and where can I get a mpc or transcript?

  27. 302

    howcan you be PROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Of course Janet Irons “seemed a little… um… angry”… to you! I wouldn’t expect you in all your vainglorious self puffery to think otherwise.

    You, on the other hand, sounded every bit of what you are – a weasel – a weasel looking to get his party hack re-elected, a weasel pathetically attempting to be relevant, a weasel trying to emulate a really good weasel named Carville (ps – you failed on the Carville part.

    Janet A Irons is right about disfunctional families – who doesn’t have one? (Maybe JohnBoy Walton!) But is it low, inappropriate fodder simply meant to distract from the issues.

    It is really quite interesting, and telling, that the golden weasel clearly gleefully spent hours on this hit piece but we have yet to see piece celebrating all the reasons we should vote FOR Sims to remain king of corrupt Sims county!

    And, in the venacular of thieves and crooks, in the realm of the politics of personal destruction a la Hitlary and Carville, there’s this diversionary tell…ignore that man behind the curtain.

    I believe, that despite the machinations of the golden weasel and the exclamations ot the “Koolaid dribbling” (I love that line Puddy!) fringies, voters are going to look at the current king of Sims county: they are going to remember the crap in the elections department, the expensive computer debacle, the new building that “will fix the elections” department (you know, the one that’s not broken with a record any bank would envy) the land grab with Sims personal favorite, the Critical Areas Ordinanace, the gas tax, the monorail (yep voters will still blame King Ron even if it is disfunction belonging to Seattle), the traffic, the taxes….

  28. 304

    Mark1 spews:

    Who cares? Resorting to childish negative campaigning will get one nowhere. Last time I checked, Irons was favored over lil buddy Ronnie in the polls anyway. Tell me Goldy, how does one go about fitting through the people door with a halo and giant Angel’s wings at KVI radio? Oh wait; Dems. just “think” they are holier than thou.

  29. 305

    prr spews:

    Just finished reading the Seattle PI Article and was not surprised to see the following:

    “Di Irons, 51, is a Democratic activist, serving on the state party central committee. She lives next door to her parents in Sammamish, in a house they own.”

    Wow and she surrported the attack on her brother?

    what do you think her motivation may have been?

  30. 306

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    Goldy,

    C’mon! If the Sims campaign HAD fed you the story and/or encouraged you to write it, would you really tell us? You may by a rabid, myopic partisan, but nobody very few people would call you stupid.

    Don’t tell me that you belive that most government “leaks” are really anything besides an attempt to control and/or get ahead of a story. You’re not THAT naive.

  31. 307

    prr spews:

    Goldy…

    It’s clear what a piece of shit, smear campaign this is and that it was started by non other than Ron Simms.

    let me guess, he was disturbed when Mr. Irons called him on having ties with a Southwest Airlines Lobbyist and ded this vile story to you.

    How much were you paid for this Goldy?

  32. 308

    Jon spews:

    howcan you be PROUDtobeanASS @ 36: You make a good point in asking where are the “Sims should be re-elected because…” pieces. In reading the comments and the posts, it seems that Goldy may be helping Gentry Lange more than Sims as there are a lot of folks out there who are not going to vote for Sims, period, but these allegations may scare them away from Irons. That being the case, they’ll vote for Lange as a protest which will hurt Sims, no matter if he loses votes to Irons or Lange.

    All that said, I still expect Sims to win, but maybe not at the typical margins.

  33. 309

    spews:

    OK, Asshats…

    Let’s see Irons come out and say this is NOT TRUE!

    Let’s see him deny the dirty tricks politics against Derdowski.

    It’s more telling about you that you blind sheep will follow any jerk with an “R” after his name (witness the witless liar occupying the White House) regardless of character. Anything goes if you are a republican running for office. If you can’t win fair…take ‘em to court…pick your county…pick your judge…then bitch to high heaven and raise holy hell when you lose. Fucking liars…every last one of you. Despicable bastards.

  34. 310

    windie spews:

    as we watch the righty trolls fall into party line….

    Its kinda amazing to watch. The word goes out, filters slowly amongst the masses: “We instruct you to blame Ron Sims!” and slowly, raggedly, the forces of trolldom get moving… 3 posts saying the same thing in a row tho’, I guess they’re in full swing now.

    All that being said, blaming Sims is the only thing Irons could have done. 5 years ago that would have been a savvy political move… But you forget we’ve had plenty of time to see Reps across the spectrum pulling this kind of BS blame-dodging.

  35. 311

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    Goldy,

    Have you recently or have you ever:

    Received funds from any Democratic campaign, office or related PAC?

    Received consulting or services work for the above?

    Discussed either of the above two things for any Democrat-related political office or campaign?

    Been in contact with any Democratic party office, campaign or PAC with regards to strategy — specifically, King County and other local offices/races/issues?

  36. 313

    spews:

    Don’t you shitheels actually FIND OUT if your candidate has problems that could render him/her unelectable?

    If re-gaining power is SOOOO important to you…why can’t you put up candidates that are electable?

    The voters in this State are famously independent. It’s a slam to the current leadership of the republican party that the moronic right wingers have hi-jacked the party and turned it into the local version of the Mayberry Machiavellis.

    SERIOUSLY…was IRONS the best you could do…or was he just to be mollified because his council seat was gone and he couldn’t beat Sims anyway so “who gives a fuck about him…we’ll throw him under the bus and wait until next time”? Typically cynical if you ask me.

  37. 314

    prr spews:

    “Don’t you shitheels actually FIND OUT if your candidate has problems that could render him/her unelectable?”

    You mean lkike having ties to a Lobbyist for southwest airlines? Or stealing property right from land owners, or harboring a corrupt elections department?

  38. 316

    dj spews:

    Richard Pope @ 14

    “If you called yourself a REPUBLICAN, it would be hard to believe if you had given money to the Democrats in 2004 and nothing to any Republicans. If someone made THIRTEEN contributions to Democrats in the last five years, and NONE to Republicans, then it would be fair to call that person (David Irons Jr) a LIAR if he said he has been a REPUBLICAN during this same period of time.”

    Ahhhh … nope. If a person is a member of the Democratic party and they call themselves a Republican then they are a liar. Calling somebody a liar based on political contriubtions to candidates is disengenuous, since it only shows support for particular candidates.

    “And when someone makes THIRTY contributions to Democrats and NONE to Republicans during the last five years, it would be fair to call that person (Janet C Irons) a LIAR if they were trying to pass themself off as an INDEPENDENT.”

    Nope. It only shows that that person has recently provided financial support for 30 democratic candidates. And, in case you didn’t realize it, many independent voters go through periods where they lean heavily toward one party.

  39. 317

    prr spews:

    Rujax…

    “Dead in 1970″

    Can’t say that I feel sorry about that.

    You’ve been without a positive male role model for 35 years and it shows.

  40. 319

    prr spews:

    Mr. X.

    what, suddenlt attacks on peoples families are in poor taste?

    what I said is not nearly as hurtful as what Goldy is posting.

  41. 321

    prr spews:

    I’ve never heard rabbit deny he did these things so it must be true.

    BTW DJ, this is a weak argument against me. I don’t feel bad for saying rabbit is a baby killing piece of shit and as a veteran, I am certainly not a traitor.

  42. 323

    Felix Fermin spews:

    I will never cease to be amazed how Republicans fall in line behind their fatally-flawed criminal candidates.

    Domestic abuse? It’s OK If You’re A Republican.
    Bankrupt business? IOKIYAR.
    Turning surplus into deficit? IOKIYAR.
    Insider trading? IOKIYAR.
    Treason? IOKIYAR.

    How do you guys sleep at night?

  43. 324

    spews:

    prr you are a real piece of work. A lying sniveleing whining shitass of the first order…a 24 carat prick!

    As Sydny Greenstreet would say..”I doff my hat to you, Sir.” (if I were wearing one).

    What a FINE example of why reppublicans in this and every other State (apparently) are being exposed for the scum they really are.

    Wallow in your fetid little fantasy world oh mighty mr. prick. Take pride in how well you can lie and smear those whose character bests yours. What a proud guy you must be.

  44. 325

    prr spews:

    Let me get this straight…

    I’m calling Goldy on being an absolure scumbag for Pulling a stunt like this. By far this is the biggest scumbag manuever you can pull, and you come back with…

    “lie and smear those whose character bests yours”

  45. 328

    prr spews:

    “I can’t help it if YOU are a worthless fool.”

    I’ll call my Dad tonight and tell him that he did a good job raising a son.

  46. 329

    yearight spews:

    “A reader just told me that David Irons was on KIRO radio claiming that the Ron Sims campaign fed me this story, and I want to categorically deny this in the strongest terms possible.”

    Sounds like another he-said she-said tussle. Using Goldy’s logic we must assume that Iron’s is telling the truth.

  47. 330

    yearight spews:

    Felix Fermin-59 ‘How do you guys sleep at night?’

    Very comfortably, knowing that the lefties will do and say anything for power. The entertainment here is watching the left get all rightous and indignant at tactics used daily for decades by their heroes. The righties are learning, but still have a ways to go before cuddling in the gutter with the Bushphobes.

  48. 331

    Aexia spews:

    You make a good point in asking where are the “Sims should be re-elected because…” pieces.

    Yes, it’s a long post, but is it really hard to scroll down to those stories on the front page?

    71 percent
    Credit where credit is due
    Sims’ $20 million open space proposal demonstrates Democratic values

  49. 332

    howcan you be PROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Let’s see Irons come out and say this is NOT TRUE! -Comment by rujax206— 10/21/05 @ 9:35 am

    Dear rugrat, as any ADULT knows, you simply don’t dignify a LIE or perpetuate the LIE by responding to it. Surely, your Momma taught you to ignore the untruths (LIES) about you.

    By the way, did you get that drug charge dismissed? Was the before or after you were listed as a known pedophile?

    Get the point, rugrat?

  50. 333

    spews:

    Comment by rujax206— 10/21/05 @ 8:59 am

    Bombshell: What positive things do you have to talk about as to Ron Sims?

    *He preserved some land space
    *W/ the council, King County got an AAA rating

    . . .

    . . .

    . . .

    Speaks for itself. David Irons’ supporters have actual plans and hopes and dreams. How? We have positive energy… and you don’t!

  51. 334

    spews:

    yourroyalfuckinassness-

    Ya’ know…I CAN sue about stuff that’s not true, and I’M not a public official, you vindictive bitch.

  52. 338

    yearight spews:

    rujax206-71 ‘How come none of you righty’s can spell?’

    I can only speak for myself – public school.

  53. 339

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    rujax @ 71: “How come none of you righty’s can spell?”

    We CAN spell — correctly and incorrectly. We just write using your spelling and grammar on this site so that you can understand us.

    And, for the record, your sentence should be properly written as, “Why is it that none of the ‘Righties’ on this site can spell correctly?”

  54. 340

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    rujax @ 68

    But your prolific posting and known character could arguably make you a “public figure” like a celebrity, commentator or editorialist. The bigger Goldy says his audience is, the more “public” you are.

    As for the allegations, the context in which they were made clearly indicates that they were exaggeration and not being reported as fact. Furthermore, the only damage would be to your anonymous “rujax” persona and not to you personally. Unless you use the “rujax” persona for financial gain, there are no damages.

  55. 341

    howcan you be PROUDtobeanASS spews:

    Ya’ know…I CAN sue about stuff that’s not true, and I’M not a public official, you vindictive bitch. Comment by rujax206— 10/21/05 @ 11:16 am

    Actually, I think you’d have a tough time bringing a slander suit against the 5yr old that accused you of pedophilia – his word against yours, dontcha know. Prove it’s not true, rugrat.

    Golly gosh gee whiz, would you looky there… trying to find the truth about something that happened between 2 people in a room with no witnesses… who to believe….

    Dumbass.

  56. 342

    howcan you be PROUDtobeanASS spews:

    yourroyalfuckinassness-

    Ya’ know…I CAN sue about stuff that’s not true, and I’M not a public official, you vindictive bitch. -Comment by rujax206— 10/21/05 @ 11:16 am

    My, my, my our little rugrat is getting a bit testy.

    Truth hitting a tad too close to home, sweetcheeks?

    Tell me again, exactly how are you going to prove you aren’t a drug using serial pedophile that diddled a 5 yr old boy in a closed room?

  57. 344

    Felix Fermin spews:

    Joseph, your “positive dreams” consist of paving over hill and dale if it will earn you a buck. That doesn’t sound positive to me at all. I’ll stick with the guy who shares my priorities.

  58. 346

    rwb spews:

    Hey Goldy,

    Dori Monson is on the air right now with David Irons and they’re talking about you!!

  59. 348

    Donnageddon spews:

    Man, this is fun watching the TROLLS try to spin support for a mother-beating Neo-ConJob!

    You Trolls are proving one thing only. You drank deep in the barrel of lie dosed Kool Aid.

    Goose Stepping Mindless sheep one and all!

  60. 349

    dj spews:

    Josef @ 72

    “SAYNORA, HORSESASS.ORG.”

    Bye, bye Josef. Come back again the next time the political winds blow you to the left, son.

  61. 350

    Curtis Love spews:

    yearight @ 26

    Diabetic sezure? Not recommended:
    Severe signs and symptoms, such as unconsciousness or seizures, are a medical emergency. Call 911 for an ambulance immediately.
    – Bystanders should not attempt to drive the person to the hospital by car because this may seriously delay proper care, which emergency medical personnel in the ambulance can provide.
    – Signs and symptoms that continue despite eating are another indication for seeking emergency care at a hospital.

    Did Irons call?

  62. 351

    Left Behind byt the New Democratic Party spews:

    Hello.

    I had to come one and say this. Goldy, you did NOT help Sims when you went on the Dori Monson show. I found it sad you were able to give straight concise answers on everything….except for one question. The way you hemmed and hawwed when Dori asked you point blank if you told the Sims campaign about this before you published your blog, and then gave a ‘sorta-answer’ to try and defuse it. The way you reacted to that answer made you come across as one of SIms lackeys, playing dirty so he doesn’t have to. Face it, Goldy, you got played by that interview. I just hope Sims will still love you after your mistake.

    Domo.

    PS-SOrry I posted the same comment in two different talkbacks, but I wanted Goldy to know that he came off badly to the average Joe.

  63. 352

    Andrew Carson spews:

    Not only did Goldy screw himself up on Monson’s interview, but there was a nice little flub on Kirby Wilbur’s show as well.

    Not to mention that there’s a good possibility that Mr. Goldstain could be in shut down by this time next year as a result of his actions today. That’s right, libel suits are a bitch to defend.

  64. 353

    dj spews:

    Andrew Carson @ 87

    Not to mention that there’s a good possibility that Mr. Goldstain could be in shut down by this time next year as a result of his actions today. That’s right, libel suits are a bitch to defend.”

    Cute, Andrew. In fact libel suits are a bitch to prosecute in the U.S. And there is that little problem that the family is giving the same account that Goldy reported to other media outlets. . . .

    But, don’t let reality get in the way of your fun :)

  65. 354

    Chimp Patrol spews:

    dj@ 88..LOL, By now you realize dj, that reality never gets in the way of our fetid neocon trolls (Andrew, prr, proudass, my cyclical, josephine the whatever, christmas ghots, sour wine, etc), reality is not in their kinds vocabulary or mentality

  66. 355

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    Andrew,

    DJ is right. Libel suits are a bitch to prosecute. Also, it would be surprising if the WA Dems didn’t pony up either lawyers or $$ to defend Goldy.

    It IS an issue of whether Goldy, like Oswald, acted alone. True or not, is this a partisan hack job? Did the KingCo or WA Dems leave it to Goldy to do so that they could appear to distance themselves from these unsavory tactics?

    I reiterate my questions to Goldy from earlier: Have you had any discussions about strategy with the WA or KingCo Dem Party or the related candidates/campaigns? Have you ever or will you receive any work from any related campaign or party?

    Goldy has done formal, organized campaign fundraising for Sims. It would not be unreasonable to declare that he is part of the Sims political machine, if not a direct or indirect “staffer.” How’s this for a headline:

    “Sims Campaign Staffer Digs Dirt on Opponent”

    Subhead: What did Sims know and when did he know it?

  67. 356

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    Chimps on Patrol @ 89

    Jeez, Louise. If you’re going to attack those with whom you disagree, could you at least put together a coherent sentence (or group thereof)?

  68. 358

    Curtis Love spews:

    Here’s what I got on libel from the University of Houston
    http
    ://www.
    hfac.uh.edu/comm/media_libel/libel
    /definition.ht
    ml

    Actual Malice is what plaintiffs in the public eye have to prove in order to win a libel case. Actual malice is the act of publishing or broadcasting statements with prior knowledge of the inaccuracy of the statement or a reckless disregard for the truth.

    In most states, public officials or figures as plaintiffs are required to prove negligence or actual malice on the part of the publisher. To prove actual malice, a person needs to show that at the time of publication or broadcast, those responsible for the story either knew it was not true or had a reckless disregarded for the truth.

    Public Figure refers to any person who receives frequent media attention, or is well-known in a particular area.

    Truth in the questioned statement is the absolute defense to any libel case.

  69. 359

    AmazedByRightWingHate spews:

    “Not to mention that there’s a good possibility that Mr. Goldstain could be in shut down by this time next year as a result of his actions today. That’s right, libel suits are a bitch to defend. ”

    Why is it that the internet trolls keep obsessing over these non-issues? It’s almost as if they have nothing positive to grasp on to these days, so they have to make up their own little private reality to get there.

    Mr. Andrew Carson Daly: find us an example of an elected official in the United States of America who defied the First Amendment, and successfully sued somebody for writing something mean about that elected official.

    Betcha can’t do it. Which is what makes you a useless right wing troll.

  70. 360

    dj spews:

    Curtis Love @ 92,

    Right. Now go back and re-read Goldy’s statements. You will see that he is factually recounting statements made to him by Iron’s relatives and acquaintances.

    Whether you believe those statements (from relatives/other) are true or not, Goldy certainly did not lie in recounting them. Many of the same charges have been recounted previously on the media and, if you read the PI today, they are being repeated by Iron’s family yesterday and today.

    In other words, Dave Jr. might consider slapping his family and acquaintances with libel if he can prove they recklessly disregarded the truth, but you cannot go after Goldy who reported what these people told him.

  71. 361

    Curtis Love spews:

    Josef @ 70

    Ron Sims Record items –
    – He steamlined issuance of building permits
    oversaw management changes that have helped reform the Sound Transit Board of Directors
    – As County Council Budget chair, he has been cutting budgets since the bust of 2000 while protecting core services and maintaining the county’s high bond rating
    – While he has been submitting and approving budgets under the state-mandated spending caps, record amounts have been spent to meet improve and expand county roadways
    – He upheld the state’s Defense of Marriage Act while privately disagreeing, he is often credited with muting the anti-gay marriage backlash while the challenges to DOMA work their way through the court system
    – Soon, FEMA will recognize King County with the best Community Rating System (CRS) Program rating of any county in the United States. The rating translates into reduced costs for flood insurance policyholders.
    – The National Association of County and City Health Officials (NACCHO) recognized Public Health – Seattle & King County in July 2005 for its ability to respond to public health emergencies.
    – Metro increased bus service by more than 145,000 hours between 1998 and 2003, provided more than 3.4 million trips to special events, helped fund the synchronization of 300 traffic signals across the county and added hundreds of new park-and-ride spaces

    Seems like a lot of work to do all that. More?

  72. 362

    Curtis Love spews:

    dj
    Irons could probably make a lot of trouble for Goldy if he chose to. He could sue him and make the case (I think) that Goldy had not thoroughly researched all accounts of these incidents, for example, I don’t think he will, because he’d be a fool to keep the allegations in front of the public through the course of a trial. He wants this stuff to go away. THREATENING a suit (to keep local papers from printing more stories, for example) might be a tack he would try, but following through would be a mistake for him, I think.

  73. 363

    Curtis Love spews:

    Josef @ 70

    first half:

    Ron Sims Record items –
    – He steamlined issuance of building permits
    oversaw management changes that have helped reform the Sound Transit Board of Directors
    – As County Council Budget chair, he has been cutting budgets since the bust of 2000 while protecting core services and maintaining the county’s high bond rating
    – While he has been submitting and approving budgets under the state-mandated spending caps, record amounts have been spent to meet improve and expand county roadways
    – He upheld the state’s Defense of Marriage Act while privately disagreeing, he is often credited with muting the anti-gay marriage backlash while the challenges to DOMA work their way through the court system

  74. 364

    Curtis Love spews:

    joef

    second half…Rons sims record

    – Soon, FEMA will recognize King County with the best Community Rating System (CRS) Program rating of any county in the United States. The rating translates into reduced costs for flood insurance policyholders.
    – The National Association of County and City Health Officials (NACCHO) recognized Public Health – Seattle & King County in July 2005 for its ability to respond to public health emergencies.
    – Metro increased bus service by more than 145,000 hours between 1998 and 2003, provided more than 3.4 million trips to special events, helped fund the synchronization of 300 traffic signals across the county and added hundreds of new park-and-ride spaces

    Seems like a lot of work to do all that. More?

  75. 365

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    This makes David Irons even more scary. He has no basis whasoever for claiming the story was leaked…yet he states it as proof.

    100% opposite of you providing sources for each and every statement.

    Heaven help us if Irons is elected.

  76. 366

    spews:

    Funny, Irons is still the best candidate. Sims has already shown that he’s not an effective Executive. Remember, it’s a model to the rest of the nation and the world! It’s the gift that keeps on giving!

  77. 367

    The Real Mark - who is usually Right and always right spews:

    Curtis @ 95

    Try checking WASHINGTON STATE law. Specifically RCW 9.58. That covers libel.

    Now, defamation of a public figure in WA is a totally different matter and more closely meets the definition you post.

    Malice is totally clear. Even before he posted the story, Goldy made no effort to hide that his intent was to damage Irons and keep him out of office.

    Reckless disregard for the truth? That is up to a jury to decide. We don’t truly know everyone that Goldy interviewed and what their relationship (i.e. positive or negative) is with David. Was there anyone who didn’t have an ax to grind that said he did it? We also don’t know what steps Goldy took to get Irons’ reply. Did he just blindly fax something to campaign headquarters an hour before posting? Did he actually TALK to someone in charge? What other evidence besides the people’s comments and are there cases where TWO people saw the same thing? Or is every individual allegation a case of one-on-one he said/she said (e.g. only he and mom were parties to the scuffle/seizure, only he and X were party to him yelling at them, etc.).

    I’m not speaking to the veracity of the allegations. I’m merely pointing out that there are a lot of unanswered questions and a good lawyer could pick apart Goldy’s story and add that to his clear partisan malice…

  78. 368

    dj spews:

    Mark @ 104

    “I’m merely pointing out that there are a lot of unanswered questions and a good lawyer could pick apart Goldy’s story and add that to his clear partisan malice…”

    Your analysis is hogwash—it has absolutely no basis in the RCW or in case law. Curtis Love is correct that Irons can file a nusance suit against Goldy, but I suspect that would be a PR gold mine for Goldy and a PR disaster for Irons!

  79. 369

    LiberalRedneck spews:

    -Try checking WASHINGTON STATE law. Specifically RCW 9.58. That covers libel.-

    I pray to God that David Irons is stupid enough to listen to morons like right wing Mark. Please please please file a lawsuit, and give this story even more coverage!

    How funny is it that at the same time the trolls are claiming Irons’ was libeled, Mayor Jim West is suing the Spokesman Review as his ship sinks faster every day!

  80. 370

    KS spews:

    David Irons does not need to and should not sue Goldstein for libel, that would be a big shot of negative PR and not a smart move. Just keep putting his mother on the air – that will shoot holes in Goldy’s posts, as anyone with both oars in the water will know what a irrational kook that she is, and consider the source twisted and suspect from the get-go. Ron Sims probably did not need to say anything (and probably wishes he didn’t) about the accusation that his campaign had anything to do with his mother coming out against her son. The mere fact that Sims felt compelled to say anything about this will work against him, because most people don’t believe anything he says in the first place, based on his previous track record.

    The only way that Sims can vinidicate himself is that he (along with David Irons) take a lie detector test witnessed by Dori Monson on KIRO – to verify that he had nothing to do with Goldstein’s smear piece (which his campaign knew about before it was published, yet did not discourage Goldstein from doing this – which contradicts his assertion already). Goldstein did it on his own, but the Sims campaign – who knew about this did not discourage and may well have encouraged him to go forward with it. At the same time, David Irons must also appear and take a lie detector test to verify that he didn’t strike his mother ~11 years ago. My prediction: Sims will not appear on Dori Monson’s show to take any lie detector test. David Irons probably won’t either – although his father stated that both David Jr. & his mother should take lie detector tests.

  81. 371

    isueu spews:

    In the unlikely event of legal action here, a proper defense fund will be quickly established, in the name of the future of blogging and the First Amendment.

    However, Janet Irons (the attorney in the family) will certainly stir this up. The upside is this she has been sanctioned by the WSBA for failure to properly handle cases, which might even make this more interesting.

    Discipline Notice
    WSBA Bar #
    12687
    Member Name
    Janet A. Irons
    Sanction
    Reprimand
    Effective Date
    9/13/2002
    RPC
    1.1 – Competence
    1.3 – Diligence
    8.4 (c) – Dishonesty, Fraud, Deceit or Misrepresentation
    8.4 (l) – Violate ELCs
    Discipline Notice
    Janet Irons (WSBA No. 12687, admitted 1982), of Bellevue, received a reprimand on September 13, 2002, based on a stipulation approved by the Disciplinary Board. This discipline is based on her conduct during 1998 through 2000, involving lack of diligence, advancing financial assistance to a client, negligent misrepresentation and failure to cooperate with the disciplinary investigation.
    Matter 1: In 1998, Ms. Irons filed a complaint against her clients’ former employer, asking for past due sales commissions. Ms. Irons did not timely answer the defendant’s discovery requests and failed to appear at the defendant’s motion to compel answers to discovery. The court ordered that Ms. Irons’ client provide discovery within 10 days and imposed $750.00 in attorney’s fees. When Ms. Irons failed to comply with the court order to provide discovery, the court granted the defendant’s motion to dismiss the lawsuit with prejudice. Ms. Irons, however, told the clients that the lawsuit was still pending.
    Matter 2: In June 1998, Ms. Irons agreed to represent a mother in the probate of her daughter’s estate. Ms. Irons maintained some of the estate funds in her trust account. In January 2000, Mr. Irons wrote the client a $3,000 check, however, the estate had only $1,133.60 in the trust account. In February 2000, Ms. Irons paid another estate beneficiary $2,100. The estate had no funds in the trust account at this time. Ms. Irons knowingly advanced her own funds to cover these estate disbursements.
    Matter 3: Ms. Irons failed to cooperate with disciplinary counsel’s investigation of this matter. The Supreme Court interimly suspended her license to practice law for approximately 28 days. After the suspension, Ms. Irons cooperated with the investigation.
    Ms. Irons’ conduct violated RPCs 1.1, requiring lawyers to provide competent representation to clients; 1.3, requiring lawyers to diligently represent their clients; RPC 8.4(c), prohibiting conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit or misrepresentation; RPC 1.8(e), prohibiting lawyers from advancing financial assistance to clients; and RLD 2.8(a) and (b), requiring lawyers to cooperate with the disciplinary investigation.
    Becky Neal represented the Bar Association. Robert Wayne represented Ms. Irons.

  82. 372

    spews:

    AmazedByRightWingHate: you’re right to imply that there is no real case to be had against Goldberg. If he had made up the allegation, perhaps, but since we know for a fact the mother is actually making the claim, no, there’s no legal action to be had. It would have to be proven that Goldberg knew the allegation was false. No court would even hear such a case, given what we now know.

    However, you’re wrong to imply there are no successful libel actions brought by politicians. It is rare, but it happens. But even if it didn’t happen before, your argument wouldn’t make sense, because the law clearly shows it *can* happen. A libel charge brought by a public official — where, in a case like this, the subject of the libel is directly related to his capacity as a public official — has a much higher burden of proof, but isn’t automatically ignored.

    If, for example, we could prove that Goldberg completely invented this charge, that it had no basis of any kind in fact, and that he knew it was false, then he certainly could be successfully sued for libel. The reason you so rarely see successful libel suits brought by politicians is because rarely do you have such blatant and clear and provable lies.

    isueu: “blogging” is not protected free speech. You don’t start a defense fund in its name unless you want to be a self-caricature. “Blogging” is boring, uninteresting, and has no future. It’s one largely stupid implementation of the same sort of publishing we’ve been seeing for centuries, since Tom Paine and before. The First Amendment is more than sufficient grounds to start a defense fund, without needing to make it look dumb by adding “the future of blogging” to the mix, any more than we need to be concerned with protecting “the future of pamphleteering.”

  83. 373

    spews:

    Goldy: FWIW, I don’t believe you weren’t fed the story. You can deny it all you like, but I don’t know you well enough to trust you, and a week before you posted it, a Democrat was quoted as saying the mud would fly at Irons a week hence. It’s too convenient. Maybe you’re telling the truth, but how could I know that? I’m not saying you did get the story fed to you either, only that I don’t have the grounds to believe either way.

    Of course, that has no bearing on whether the incident happened or not. But, as I live in Snohomish County, I guess I don’t need to make up my mind about it.

Radio Goldy

I will be on the John Carlson Show, 570-KVI this afternoon at 3PM, opposite Bruce Chapman, the president of the Discovery Institute, the driving force behind so-called “intelligent design.”

A couple days ago I criticized the Gates Foundation for funding the institute to the tune of $1 million a year, including $50,000 of Mr. Chapman’s $141,000 salary. If Bill Gates doesn’t understand that he is giving money and credibility to an organized effort to undermine our nation’s basic science education, then he needs to be educated. If he does understand this, then it’s his customers, employees and stockholders who need to be educated.

Neither Chapman nor Discovery are drawn from my usual cast of villains, so I can’t claim to be an expert on ID or its proponents. But lack of expertise has never stopped me from expressing my opinions before, so why stop now?

UPDATE:
John controls the debate, but I’m guessing more than a little of my focus today will touch upon the Discovery Institute’s infamous “Wedge Document.”

UPDATE, UPDATE:
Here’s the New Yorker article I’m about to mention.

UPDATE, UPDATE, UPDATE:
Well, I thought that went fairly well considering how unprepared I was on the subject and the fact that Chapman is not just some walking talking point like Stefan or Tim. And John had some kind words to say to me afterwards, off the air, so I thank him for that as well as the opportunity to speak on issues other than the election contest.

Comments

  1. 379

    JDB spews:

    Ask him about the Giant Green Rabbit theory! Ask him about Intelligent Falling.

    Or, more seriously, ask him if Astronomy should be taught as an alternative to Astrology.

  2. 381

    spyder spews:

    Maybe you could mention that one of their key “science advisors,” a historian of science actually(Stephen Meyer), served as a professor of philosophy at Whitworth College. Now to become a fulltime academic at Whitworth one must write an essay detailing their direct relationship with Christian faith, and how they will express this relationship and the importance of Christian faith in their teaching. Doesn’t sound very objective to me.

  3. 382

    righton spews:

    spyder; nice guilt by association. Should we quiz Hillary about stupid classes at yale? (meyer no longer teaches at whitworth, just as hillary no longer attends yale)

  4. 383

    righton spews:

    and spyder;

    You mean religious schools shouldn’t require belief? That’s a stupid waste of time, to want a religious school that can’t have religion.

    Yipes. Like going to school in Madison and not drinking.

  5. 384

    Richard Pope spews:

    So Goldy wants to boycott Microsoft because he disagrees with the religious, philosophical, or political beliefs of the company’s founder and largest stockholder, and what this individual chooses to do with his own private fortune?

    Makes about as much sense as boycotting Heinz ketchup and other Heinz products because someone disagrees with the philosophical or political beliefs of Teresa Heinz Kerry and her husband.

  6. 386

    David T. spews:

    Oh Gawd, once again you are going to make me turn my dial all the way over to 570. I hate listening to that station! It makes my blood boil to realize people are so ignorant, even in Seattle. I sure hope Carlson realizes how much you do for his ratings, making us progressive folk tune into that crap.

    Make it worthwhile, Goldy. Let Chapman have it.

    http://www.homesteadbook.com/blog

  7. 392

    Jimmynap spews:

    Tagged by Chapman??? are you nuts….

    Looks like our moderator didn’t let him describe a key point in the Wedge doc.

  8. 394

    JDB spews:

    Also, Chapman is just out right lying. Here are two good web pages that take apart their propaganda screed Icons of Evolution:

    http://www.nmsr.org/iconanti.htm

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/

    It would be much more interesting if they had actual scientist debating, although I guess they would be hard pressed to find one from Discovery that would want to have his lunch handed to him.

    And clearly Carlson is leaning in his bosses favor, using the break to prevent Goldy from getting his points in, and cutting Goldy off every time he tries to make a point. Normal Carlson 2 against 1 when he knows he would be beat in a fair fight.

  9. 395

    righton spews:

    Carlson gave goldy more time and respect than Chapman might get via Air America or other liberal station

  10. 396

    Jimmynap spews:

    Oh, that… I thought he was just insulting him when he didn’t have anything to talk about.

    And all those published articles and studies??? I found maybe 20-30 of them on discovery.org. Not much in comparison to real science.

  11. 403

    righton spews:

    man, chapman is great, really noting how the political left is going after professors….

    reminds me of the communists…

  12. 405

    JDB spews:

    Sheesh, righton, weren’t you in favor of getting rid of Ward Churchhill? So it is all right to get rid of the nutty left wing professors, but not the nutty right wing professors?

    Let’s face it, Chapman well knows that Gates is not in favor of non-scientific thought, and will pull his money sooner or later. Why else spend all this time whining about Goldy.

    Give Carlson credit though, he is doing a good job keeping Goldy from making any points, and Chapman, while he lies as much as the minnow, at least doesn’t sound like a stoned out loser.

  13. 406

    JDB spews:

    Oops, caught up in the filter again. Apparently calling the minnow a stoned out loser was a no no.

    (And the wingnuts think it is just there to annoy them.)

  14. 407

    Jimmynap spews:

    We are going after the attempt to force theology in our schools. Five years of supposed “research” doesn’t contitute ID being taught to my children. And with an agenda like the Wedge it is even more suspect. They can fund all the research they want but unless they have something real to work with those classes can be electives.

  15. 408

    Jon spews:

    Goldy: “But lack of expertise has never stopped me from expressing my opinions before, so why stop now?”

    You couldn’t make a remark any easier to comment about than this one…so I won’t. :)

  16. 409

    righton spews:

    Jimmynap; good idea on reading Genesis to find out “who”, right now i’m listening to an argument on “how”

  17. 411

    righton spews:

    Now we got a scientist calling in dissing Goldy. Horseses ass is goldy. This guy rebutting goldy saying evolution as proved as gravity

  18. 412

    Karmalyzed spews:

    What’s ACCEPTED, Goldy, is that your ARROGANCE is only outweighed by your IGNORANCE. All science is theory, but if it’s accepted by you, it’s fact?

  19. 413

    Jimmynap spews:

    Such an idiot you are…. What that guy was doing was merely correcting simple language of science. All are theories, (yes, even gravity righton, but I am pretty sure you are upside down in a cage somewhere…parrot.) we covered that in middle school. Accepted science is science that has MANY years of observation and scrutiny. This Chapman fucker just has a political agenda. If he REALLY believes in what he is doing then he would quietly continue his work and share the findings with the scientific community without the mounted defense of Discovery. His so called findings as it is now amount to nothing.

  20. 414

    Karmalyzed spews:

    The only thing sacred to the liberal is the sound of their own whining. It’s just amazing.

  21. 417

    herbalizer spews:

    Interesting how every time goldy is talking they have to go to break.

    Interesting how they had goldy on the defensive most of the time. I’d think that quack at Discovery is the one who should be defending his views. Cocksucker Carlson set it up so he wouldn’t have to do that mainly by going into that shit about the Smithsonian. Like we give a fuck about that, I want to hear about all the “scientific research” Discovery is doing.

    Goldy you have got to get on the offensive on these radio shows. Demand they answer your questions. The show shouldn’t have been about what you think, it’s about ID and Discovery. These conservative shows control things by putting their opponent on the defensive. I’d tried to call but I couldn’t get on.

    Fuckin bullshit. FUCK ID. FUCK John Carlson. Fuck Discovery.

  22. 419

    JDB spews:

    Here’s a link to the NYT on the publication dispute. Turns out that the journal is only marginally related to the Smithsonian, and that everyone was embarrased that the article got published in the first place:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08.....0sat4.html?
    n=Top%2FOpinion%2FEditorials%20and%20Op-Ed%2FEditorials

    And that guy was as much a physicist as I am. “We don’t know that there is hydrogen in the sun.” That is just in line with Redass Mark’s theory that we have no idea how old anything is.

    And, righton, did you hear an argument on how? I didn’t. I want to know how the Giant Green Rabbit, or the FSM did it. Or why they made so many mistakes. What, there were no answers? On par for the Discovery Institute.

    Lastly, on the Wedge document. Please name the last scientific theory that needed a PR campaign? I’m waiting.

  23. 420

    marks spews:

    JDB @46

    Please name the last scientific theory that needed a PR campaign?

    Umm, “John Kerry can win?”

  24. 421

    JDB spews:

    Marks @ 47

    Well, if you can find a peer review that accepted that, I bet they would publish the ID theory, with or without giant green bunny.

  25. 422

    Goldy spews:

    herbalizer @44,

    It’s John’s show, and he can generally control it however he wants to. He played the role of moderator a bit more aggressively than he did between me and Stefan.

    As to going on the offensive on the radio, the only way to assure that is to get my own show.

  26. 423

    JDB spews:

    A good quote from the New Yorker for you flat earthers:

    Pope John Paul II himself acknowledged, in a 1996 address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, that new research “leads to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis.”

  27. 424

    Karmalyzed spews:

    Jimmy, why not expose students to BOTH sides? A major component which has been lost in education in public schools is teaching children to THINK. Most of what they get now is liberal indoctrination. Liberals are not the only people who send their kids to public schools.

  28. 425

    herbalizer spews:

    @ Goldy.

    I hope Air america offers you a job. I’d much rather listen to you then sam cedar and janeane garafalo. I know it’s very difficult to get on the offensive on these talk shows. You did the best you could. Thanks for going on.

    John Carlson is a fucking piece of shit. That son of a bitch hung up on me and then the next caller asked what happened to me and he told the caller that I hung up because that’s what liberals usually do. I didn’t fucking hang up. FUCK YOU JOHN CARLSON. You couldn’t handle a caller nailing you to the fucking wall so you had to hang up on me. Cocksucker Carlson wouldn’t have a chance in hell in an open and fair debate.

  29. 426

    Jimmynap spews:

    @51

    Because it took a long time to observer and scrutinize the theory of evolution, AND new information is being presented all the time. This hack, (and thank you JDB) and his PR campaign for ID have a nothing but a social agenda that is destructive to a society where free thought is cherished. They can think what they want but to impose 5 or so years of research to a new theory without years of scrutiny of evolution is maddness!!

    Let them teach that in the church.

  30. 427

    Jimmynap spews:

    Sorry, that didn’t read well but I was in a hurry to go see the evolved pigs out the county fair!

  31. 429

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    “Intelligent design” isn’t a scientific theory at all, it’s a legal theory. It was cooked up by lawyers to get around the Supreme Court rulings banning religious teaching in public schools.

  32. 430

    righton spews:

    jdb; plenty of spin and campaigns for science. I’ll bet the last drug you got at the drugstore (as opposed to liberal use of canabis) only got approved after a lot of marketing and hype.

  33. 431

    righton spews:

    You guys assume humans today are wiser than humans say 1000 years ago. Back then we were convinced of some scientific theories, and today also convinced of some scientific theories.

    At least looking backwards we know that given enough time, theories change…

  34. 432

    JDB spews:

    Righton:

    Drugs are not a scientific theory, they are a consumer product. If you wish to admit that ID is not a scientific theory, but a consumer product, you have stumbled into the light.

    Karmalyzed:

    Should we teach both sides of economics as equal in middle school (Marx v. Keynes)? Should we teach the contraversy between Astronomy and Astrology? Flat Earth v. Round Earth? Young Earth v. Old Earth? Medical Marjuana v. Just say no? Intelligent falling v. Gravity? At what point does something have to be so far outside the field of science that we no longer have to teach it. Or can anyone start an institute, proclaim their idea a science, and then it has to be taught?

    And, maybe it is better in a highly competitive global market to just get our kids to understand science, and not that there are crack pot theories also?

  35. 433

    marks spews:

    Goldy,

    And John had some kind words to say to me afterwards, off the air, so I thank him for that as well as the opportunity to speak on issues other than the election contest.

    I hope they weren’t along the lines of how “sweet” a guy you are! My guess is you did fine. Is there audio?

    JDB @48 & 50,

    Just to be clear, evolution should be taught in public school. It is up to the Discovery folks to present a compelling scientific theory for ID. So far, they fail on the expressly “scientific” portion (hint to the Discovery folks: the fallacy is in the math, and you got some ‘splainin to do). It is up to us, the taxpayers and parents to ensure education is truly based on scientific methodology.

    At the same time, if the foundation wants to fund ID research, why the hell not? Oh, yes, I forgot about the people who take this as Gospel. Well, Bless your hearts.

    At this point, if you want something other than evolution taught, spend the money on a private school.

  36. 434

    Puddybud spews:

    A popular Des Moines Barber shop had a new robotic barber installed.

    A fellow came in for a haircut. As the robot began to cut his hair, it asked him, “What’s your IQ?”
    The man replied, “130.” So the robot proceeded to make conversation about physics, astronomy, investments, insurance and so on. The man listened intently and said, “This is really cool.”

    Later, another gent came in for a haircut and the robot asked him as it began the haircut, “What’s your IQ?”
    The man responded, “100.” So the robot started talking about football, baseball, and so on. The man thought to himself, “Wow, this is really cool.”

    Later on, a third guy came in to the barber shop. As with the others, the robot barber asked him, “What’s your IQ?”
    The man replied, “70.”
    The robot then said, “So, I understand you Democrats are really excited about Hillary running for president?”

  37. 435

    NoWonder spews:

    JDB @ 46

    ‘Please name the last scientific theory that needed a PR campaign? I’m waiting.’

    That global warming can be influenced by human activities, or predicted with any reasonable accuracy into the future.

  38. 437

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    NEWS ITEM – RECALL PETITION AGAINST SPOKANE MAYOR UPHELD

    The State Supreme Court today ruled that a recall petition filed by a citizen against Spokane Mayor Jim West can proceed to signature gathering. The court rejected arguments by West’s lawyers that the petition was factually and legally insufficient.

  39. 440

    marks spews:

    Richard Pope,

    I wonder as well, but more to the point, why is this on the radar for either you or RR?

  40. 442

    Donnageddon spews:

    @ 61 Then the Robotic Barber served the next customer

    “What’s your IQ?”

    “I am PuddyBud!”

    The Robot Barber then grabbed PuddyBud by the arm, threw him into Baghdad where PuddyBud soiled himself and roamed the streets asking the Iraqi people “Where’s my mommy? Have you seen my mommy?”

    Thus another thumbsucking chicken hawk meets his cumuppence!

  41. 443

    JDB spews:

    No Wonder @ 62

    Sorry, Global warming was developed as a theory without a PR campaign. You might not like what people have done with it since, but its not like it needed a PR campaign to get published. Next try?

  42. 444

    Gary spews:

    The evidence for ID is in everything we see and do. Scientists can not accept the evidence for ID because they demand that all events and conditions must be the result of known or knowable natural law. ID asserts that an intelligence beyond mans understanding exists. Scientists in thier arrogance refuse to consider the possibility that a supernatural creator could exist. ID does not belong in the science classroom, but niether does domatic assertion of deeply flawed theories like evolution and Big Bang. a Science cirrculum should acknowledge that the theories are unprovable and that at least one widly held alternative theory exists.

  43. 445

    JDB spews:

    Gary:

    You are right, ID doesn not belong in the science classroom. It deals with the supernatural, while science deals with the real world.

    But, please, how are evolution, or, especially, the big bang (and, lets face it, even Discovery doesn’t dispute the big bang. I know of no scientist that does, since the evidence for that is truly all around you) deeply flawed? Like any scientific theory, they are not perfect, and will change with additional study, but they have proved (in the case of evolution for over 100 years, in the case of the big bang, well over 50 years) to best describe the world around us.

    I assert that a giant green rabbit exist. That doesn’t make it so. The FSM theory is as rational, and has as much proof, as ID, should it be taught?

    If there was one widely held alternative theory, you are right, it should be taught. However, there is not. Just, as you said, a theory about the supernatural, which can be taught in Church where it belongs.

  44. 446

    Gary spews:

    The “Big Bang” relies on an initial uncaused event. There has never been a “Scientific” explanation of an uncaused event. Evolution relies on the concept of life coming from non-life. This has never been observed. Natural conditions where this could theoretically occur have never been observed. All attempts to recreate this event in the laboritory have failed.

    Science is a very powerful tool that we use to develop a limited understanding of reality. Our scientific models are not reality because our minds are too limited. We develop models that “look like” reality, but are much simpler and easier to comprehend.
    There should be room in the schools for the study of philosophy. Philosophy is the basis of both science and religion.

  45. 447

    righton spews:

    Opposition to intelligent design is just as axiomatic for libs as is protection of abortion…. you guys are all robots

  46. 448

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @73

    Nice try at rationalizing away science, Gary, but I prefer to drive on bridges whose design is based on physics, not philosophy, thank you very much. If science doesn’t work, then none of our medical techniques or medicines work either. Behaviors of physical matter in our universe do seem to follow the predictions of our science-based models, how do you explain that? If you think science doesn’t accurately explain reality then try this simple experiment. Find a cliff, jump off it, and philosophize yourself to a gentle landing on the ground below. Go ahead, Gary, see if it works. No — on second thought … don’t try this without talking to your scientific adviser first … or, if you insist on trying it, better talk to your spiritual adviser before taking the leap into the great unknown!

    FYI, amino acids (the building blocks of life) have been created from inert chemicals in the laboratory. Artificial viruses also have been created in the lab.

  47. 449

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @74

    Righton, explain to me WHY we should accept “intelligent design” as an explanation of the universe’s (and life’s … and humanity’s) existence?

    FACT: ID was created by lawyers as a legal strategy to get around the constitutional prohibition on teaching religion in public schools.

    FACT: ID is not an established religion or philosophy.

    FACT: ID is not mentioned in the Bible or any other traditional religious text, manuscript, or teaching.

    FACT: ID has no scientific support.

    Righton, you’d have to be pretty stupid to confuse a legal strategy and political gimmick with religion. I have a question for you: Are you really that stupid?

  48. 450

    righton spews:

    Roger; i’m only stupid enough to waste time w/ you on this matter.

    Your post sounds like you are anti free speech; that is, your words say we cannot accept this.

    Well heck, we can tolerate all sorts of crazy ideas. We let scientologists babble their nonsense, we let anti animal research nuts carry forth, we let space alien afficianados do their thing, what is wrong with pondering Intelligent Design.

    That said, I’m confident on my religious faith in creation, but obviiousl swayed by science that seems to show adaptation etc. But before I vote to shut down research or consideration of research, i guess i ought to go back and get a phd in science or somehting.

    The ID guys aren’t cave dwellers, peddling anti gravity theories. Instead they are being provacative, stirring the pot.

    You guys just get pissed cuz they’ve dared to confront your sacred cow. As I mentioned above, i’m not a scientist, so i don’t quite know “how” to rectify fossil remains vs current species, and all the stuff evolution, darwin, ID, seem to be debating. But i’m not the least bit troubled by opening the sacred cow up for debate.

  49. 451

    spews:

    David, I more or less agree with you on Intelligent Design. See my column in this week’s The Stranger which was just posted. But putting pressure on Microsoft, because its chairman’s personal foundation supports unrelated programs at an institute that also champions intelligent design? That’s just plain silly.

    Because I’m with you on this particular issue, I’m willing to offer you some free advice — we’ll be more credible in explaining the flaws in intelligent design if we focus on the merits of the issue and not on a Salem Witch Trial of everybody who has ever shaken hands with the people who promote I.D. Your attack on Bill Gates makes you look like a nutty extremist, and discredits the real debate about I.D.

    On the other hand, I enjoy it when you’re a nutty ineffectual extremist on the issues where we disagree, so please take my advice only as it relates to this one issue!

    cheers
    Stefan

  50. 452

    JDB spews:

    righton:

    Scientologist can spew all they want, but their beliefs should not be taught in a biology class. UFOs should not be taught in Astronomy, and perpetual motion machines should not be taught in Physics. Since we are in agreement on that, then clearly neo-creo should not be taught in biology class either.

    Evolution is open to, and is, being constantly debated in science. As more information (genetics, dna, fossile records) have come forward, new and alternative theories have been moved forward. However, no evidence has surface that challanges the basic idea. No evidence has yet to surface that shows the hand of the giant green bunny or whatever designer you care to postulate.

    Gary: We can go make within milliseconds of the big bang. The event is not necessarily an uncaused event, there are in fact several theories as to why the big bang might have happen. But I think you are even conceding that the big bang took place. So we have made some movement.

    The proteins necessary to make DNA and RNA exist naturally in space. Organic compounds, by there very nature, want to form. Given time, energy, carbon and water, it really isn’t that hard to form organic compounds, and you don’t need that much time.

    As far as I know (and forgive me, I’m not as up on particle physics as I once was), an individual quark has never been seen in the lab, does that mean that all matter is in fact made up of “God Juice,” since we can’t seperate them out in the lab? The method that gavity propgates its force has never been demonstrated (particle, waves, etc), does that mean we need to teach intelligent falling? http://www.theonion.com/news/i.....3&n=2

    The simple point is that science requires theories that you can test. If you can’t test it, it is not science. The big band and evolution are constantly being tested, and are constatnly being supported by those tests. Just like Relativity, Theromdynamics, Mechanics and every other theory in science. That’s science.

    And, since the few attempts to prove ID have constantly been shown to come up short, does that prove that there is no designer?

  51. 454

    Goldy spews:

    Stefan @78,

    I would expect that we would be in agreement on Intelligent Design, as whatever we may think or say about each other, I don’t think either one of really believes the other is an “idiot.” As to opposing the teaching of this bullshit piece of junk science, your approach is certainly useful, but sometimes it takes a bit of hyperbole like my post to draw attention to the larger issue. And I’m afraid you may be missing the larger issue.

    The I.D. campaign is not about evolution… it is not even just about changing the way we teach science from the purely rational scientific process (or as Discovery calls it, “scientific materialism”) to one based on a “theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.” I.D. is the wedge, and their goal is not just to impose “intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science,” but to have it “permeate our religious, cultural, moral and political life.”

    You can not ignore the “Wedge Document” especially considering what an amazingly successful blueprint it has been.

    I would also hope that as cynical your are about progressive and Democratic institutions, and government in general, you could turn a little bit of at Discovery for moment, and not be so entirely dismissive of my efforts to discredit the parent institution. Discovery is playing a very dangerous game, it is using the credibility it earns from projects like Cascadia and contributors like Gates to lend I.D. a level of credibility it most certainly does not enjoy. It is not science, it is theology… or philosophy at the most. As you know, when it comes to evolution, there is no scientific controversy to teach, and we should not let Discovery leverage whatever credibility it might have from other activities to convince people otherwise. I would hope you can understand, quite bluntly, the strategic reasons why the larger organization must be discredited. Quite frankly, there are plenty of other effective conservative institutions; you do not need to stick up for this particular one.

    Politics aside, you and I actually have a lot in common, not the least of which being that we are both technologists and both non-Christians, and I would assume that on both counts, you would reject Discovery’s goal of imposing its peculiar theistic perspective on all aspects of modern life.

    I don’t expect that we will entirely agree on this issue and the proper approach to confronting I.D. and defeating it. But I hope we can at least complement each other (if not compliment) in our efforts to oppose it.

  52. 455

    righton spews:

    Goldy; lets ignore the ID part of this; I think the behind the scenese issue is the way the left (you) target groups based on 1 issue.

    Borking
    Shouting down conservatives on campus
    Yelling at donors to discovery

    I think its a long list, i got lazy and stopped after 3.

    Its an ugly anti-democratic tactic, popular w/ the left, both in the US and abroad.

    I’m not boycotting Heinz cuz an heir is a nutball. Or more analogous, not boycotting some college she donates to, because i don’t like her support of her husband’s political run.

  53. 456

    Gary spews:

    Science is a very usefull tool, but it can not create data from nothing, which is what the evolutuionists are trying to do. Life has never been created in the laboratory, and if it were that would only show that a team of very intelligent people could do it by copying what was there ie Intelligent Design.
    79: Evolution and the Big Bang can not be tested. Neither can be recreated in the laboratory. Therfore by your standard they are not science.
    “Organic compounds, by there very nature, want to form.” What about the law of entropy. Everything tends to go from a state of order to a state of disorder. Life is a localised temporary reversal of entropy that could never happen by itself under accepted physical law.
    I have never tried to scientifically prove ID, but there are enough assumptions without proof in the Big Bang and Evolutioary theories that they should still be treated as theories, not dogmatically presented as fact.

  54. 457

    Commander Ogg spews:

    Gary @ 83

    The following is part of an essay from the website run by the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal(CSICOP).

    http://www.csicop.org/speciala.....ology.html

    Evolution & Creationism

    Terminology in Conflict

    One of the fundamental reasons for the ongoing conflict between the religious and scientific communities involves differences in terminology and word usage. Having heard many lay people scoff “evolution is only a theory” or refer to “the theory of Intelligent Design,” it seems prudent to discuss differences in usage and understanding, as Creationists are misusing the understanding of this and other scientific terms by the average individual to further their own aims.

    In science, the word “theory” is not used in the manner understood by most people, i.e. I have a theory that if I do X, Y will result or perhaps my theory is that man was created by divine intervention. They equate the word with “conjecture,” “supposition,” or at worst “guess.” However, phrases such as these fall under the heading of “hypothesis” or “hunch” for the purpose of scientific enquiry. In a scientific context, the word theory is reserved for ideas that have been repeatedly tested experimentally under very rigorous conditions and confirmed to behave as expected. Quantum electrodynamics, heliocentrism, and plate tectonics are other examples of scientific theory; they are areas that have been independently studied and repeatedly verified over decades or centuries using increasing amounts of hard data.

    Science also relies on facts, which are either data gathered through observation or instances in which some phenomenon has been tested and verified so many times that there is no longer good reason to suspect any variation in outcome. Even in this case a fact is not immutable, since it is always possible for new evidence to be introduced that will overturn a long-established fact. Evolution is a fact in the respect that we have hard data – an ever-expanding fossil record – proving that species have changed over time; dinosaurs, early mammals, Trilobites, and other forms no longer exist as living species. The exact mechanism by which these changes occurred (e.g. natural selection and environmental pressures) is the realm of evolutionary theory and is based on interpretation of that fossil record and other available data.

  55. 458

    Gary spews:

    Ogg: Making a record of the history of species on this planet does nothing to prove or disprove evolution. It shows that different species existed at different times, but it does not show why they appeared or dissapeared. The “Origin of the Species” does not even rise to the level of theory, it is pure conjecture There has never been an experiment that produced a new species. I am not advocating that ID replace evolution in the science cirricula, but the “science” of evolution that relies on some fragments of bone and a lot of conjecture should not be taught as immutable fact as it is in most classrooms. today

  56. 461

    Gary spews:

    Headcase: OK Przewalski’s Horse is a nearly extinct variety of horse that originated in central asia. Now what does that have to do with the origin of a species? Variation within a species is not the same as a new species.

  57. 462

    JDB spews:

    Gary:

    “There has never been an experiment that produced a new species.”

    Well, that’s not true, is it. I don’t know what you mean by species, but through genetic engineering, we have already created tons of new life forms, totally different species from anything that came before. Of course, you can look at all the different breeds of cattle, horses and dogs, just to get a start, on the basics of evolution. A breed, admittedly, isn’t a specices, but it defnintily shows proof of concept. And we have really only had a good working understanding on genetics and genetic engineerin in the last 30 years, evolution has had millions to develop species.

    Look at the evolutionary tree for horses or whales. Watch as the predecesors to whales loose there hind legs, but modern whales keep the hip bone and vestigial legs. Heck, go get an x-ray of your sacrum and look at your own vestigial tail. Why did the designer give you a tail similar to a monkey and then hide it?

    And let’s not forget Darwin’s Finches. In correcting errors found in ID theory:

    “As for Wells’s second charge, not only did Peter Grant and his colleagues observe finch evolution as it was happening in the Galápagos, but the rate of evolution was far faster than anyone expected. The only cannonball Wells can lug out to discharge against this inspiring work is that the weather will always oscillate, and there won’t be long-term trends, and that any such trends are just “speculation.” Unfortunately for Wells, while it’s still difficult to predict the future, we’re getting better and better at measuring the past. Ice core and sedimentary evidence show that the benign climate of the last 10,000 years is NOT normal; there have been huge temperature swings in just years and decades on occasion, and these non-equilibrium environments are exactly what is needed to drive speciation.

    The third charge leveled by Wells is similarly flawed. Recent molecular research shows conclusively that Darwin’s finches, all of them — the Warbler finch, the vegetarian finch, the tree finches, the Cocos finch, and the ground finches — all came from a single common ancestor. The finches are a “monophyletic group,” just as Darwin had surmised in his diary. And even though the ground finches may not represent as many species as once thought, and the tree finches likewise, the cold, hard molecular evidence shows very clearly that there are now indeed separate species on the islands. Wells has not supplied a single clue as to how “Intelligent Design” might explain why there are now five separate groups of finches on the Galápagos, when once there was but one.”

    The more information we get, the more proof we have of evolution. What is amazing is that a whole school of science, genetics, has come to full fruitation since the 1960s, and has only proved evolution right over and over again.

    So there you go, several examples of evolution at work, species forming, both in nature and in the lab. Care to show me one instance of design in the lab?

  58. 463

    Gary spews:

    JDB: All of your examples are variation within a species. There has never been a species created by man. Look up the definition of species. Science has documented the fact that different species existed at different times. Science has not proved any process of development of a new species. Until origin of a new species is observed in nature, it is conjecture. Observation of various fossil fragments in various locations is not the same as observing the event.

  59. 464

    JDB spews:

    A species is defined as unable to produce fertile offsprings. All Dogs are the same species, a horse and a donkey are seperate species (they can only produce a infertile mule). As stated above, the Darwin Finches are seperate species. They cannot interbreed. However, genetics makes it clear that they did share a common ancestor.

    If what you are asking for is proof that a dog becomes a hippopotamus, htat is not how evolution works, and you are never going to be able to show that. However, as is shown in the fossile record, you get gradual change that takes you from a hippo ancestor through changes to a whale. How does showing the gradual development from one form to another, when the forms follow a steady chonilogical change, not show a process of development? Given how hard it is to produce a fossile, it is amazing how complete the record is.

    As for observing the event, what is the event you wish to be observed? You do not have one day a hippo, the next day a whale. there is no event to be observed like that. Given that we have only been looking for about 150 years, isn’t it strange that all the evidence fits the theory?

    Another example I didn’t think of at the time. Where do you think the new flu viruses or SARS or AIDS comes from? Mutation, over time, leading to new and different forms. Same with antibiotic resistant forms of bacteria. Exactly the same thing with the Darwin Finches, Exactly the same thing with the evolution of man from austrolopithicines to Homo Sapien Sapien.

    What is your counter? That the giant green rabbit or the FSM had to keep practicing, so s/he, they, it moved from less complex forms to more complex forms? Why does the line of human descent make so much sense? Why does it not go Homo Erectus, Austrolopithiciens, Cro Magnon, Neanderthal, then Homo Sapien Sapien? If there is a designer, why does he follow the path dictated by evolution?

    Further, why is it that all fossiles follow this pattern? You don’t see hippo like creature, than whale, and now we have the mid point. You see hippo like creature, than a slightly less hippo, more aquatic animal, than a more whale than hippo, than a whale over time. Strange how that pattern flows every time.

    Evolution predicts the rise of new species better adapted for their enviorment when random mutations, guided by natural selection, lead to change. The fossile record is consistent with that, genetics are consistent with that. Everything in science is consistent with that. Evolution is a consistent theory; its prediction are matched by the evidence. It is as good of theory as Relativity or Gravity.

    I have given you every thing you asked for. Demostrations of change from one species to another. Creation of new life in the labortory. If you want a photo of a dog giving birth to a bird, you are going to be sadly disapointed. Evolution doesn’t work that way, no one ever said it did. But look hard upon the monkey, and realize the difference between you and that chimp is 2% of your genetic code. Given three million years, is it that hard for you not to recognise your ancestor?

  60. 465

    Gary spews:

    “when the forms follow a steady chonilogical change” The fossil record does not show a steady chronilogical change. There are sudden appearances, fossils found in the wrong layer of rock, fossils whose radiocarbon date does not agree with thier level of development. These difficulties have been dealt with by theories like “Punctuated Equilibrium”. They have recalibrated radiocarbon dating to match thier theory. They have conjectured that a giant meteor strike wiped out the old life forms and suddenly produced new ones.
    I don’t contend that there is a conspiracy, only that science must have a theory that is based on natural law. That is a fundimental ASSUMPTION of science. Therefore scientists must explain away any evidence that appears to be outside of natural law, no matter how flimsy the explanation is.
    I don’t want to have ID taught in the classroom, I just want scientists to admit that a theory patched together from fossil fragments and conjecture is far from proven.

Radio Goldy

I will be on the John Carlson Show this afternoon at 4:30 pm, KVI-570. I believe we will be discussing the London bombings.

Comments

  1. 469

    GBS spews:

    John Carlson: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  2. 470

    GBS spews:

    Kirby Wilbur: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  3. 471

    GBS spews:

    Michael Medved: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  4. 472

    smoke spews:

    No.3

    Bush ISN’T all that great, but keep fielding candidates like Gore and Kerry and ………. well let’s just say Bush got in AND reelected with votes AGAINST those two just as much as folks who voted FOR Bush.

    BTW: I doubt Goldie is gonna talk about this on KVI. Although I’m sure some kind of blame will be aimed at Bush for what happened in London.

  5. 473

    GBS spews:

    Michael Savage (aka Michael Weiner his real last name): there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  6. 474

    GBS spews:

    Sean Hannity: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  7. 475

    GBS spews:

    Bill O’reilly: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  8. 476

    GBS spews:

    Rush Limbaugh: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  9. 477

    GBS spews:

    DICK Cheney: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  10. 478

    GBS spews:

    George W. Bush: there’s another conservative loser, who never served his country, piss ant. Ducking out on ANG service doesn’t count, just like serving your freshmen year in college and never wearing the uniform for even one day doesn’t count either.

    Tell it like it is Goldy. Bush is Unfit for Command.

  11. 479

    christmasghost spews:

    let me guess….GBS stands for GOLDY’S BULL SHIT?
    you are a real original…..truly.LOL.

  12. 481

    pbj spews:

    Tell John Fuckface Carlson to suck your dick.

    It is their high level of intellect that always makes conversations with liberals so rewarding.

  13. 482

    christmasghost spews:

    yes, pbj…they are regular brainiacs when it comes to language skills. their social skills are on the same level.
    after all seattle was on the 100 worst list as a loonie bin.
    too true…….

  14. 483

    pbj spews:

    Goldy,

    You dodged John’s question:

    “If you are correct about us being more vulnerable compare to the rest of the world, then why weren’t we attacked instead of London?”

  15. 484

    Chuck spews:

    GBS@3
    Even great war strategest General George Patton insisted that civilians should be in charge of the military, not military people.

  16. 485

    spews:

    Tee hee. First off, Goldy, you got to give us more time. I only caught the tail end of the show. But I kept listening to the next segment, and Carlson said you didn’t attack people. Oh my. So remember, Carlson doesn’t think calling someone a horses’ ass is attacking. It’s good to know.

  17. 486

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 6

    Either Gore or Kerry would have been far superior to Bush. Don’t forget, it took 2 stolen elections for Bush to get in, and Bush was “re-elected” with the smallest margin of any incumbent since 1916.

  18. 488

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 13

    Exactly what did GBS post here that isn’t true? NONE of the wingnut pols/mouthpieces he mentioned served in the military. Some, like Cheney, were big-time shirkers. That’s the whole goddam problem — the people running our government never served in the military, therefore have no clue what is possible and what isn’t, and have blithely sent our troops afield on mission impossible because they don’t know what the fuck they’re doing. They got all their knowledge of war-fighting from watching “Combat” on TV in the 50s.

  19. 489

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 18

    To the best of my knowledge, great war strategist General George Patton never advocated putting incompetent civilians in charge of the military.

  20. 490

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 16

    “after all seattle was on the 100 worst list as a loonie bin”

    Not surprising considering we’ve got you, prr, PBJ, Mr. Cynical, All Tools, Janet S., and Chards!

  21. 491

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    ChristmasGhost and my other friends who are always RIGHT–
    Being called a “loon” by someone who has gone by identities including Alan/Don/DubyaSux/Priscilla/thatPrick plus 83 other identities most recently being Roger Rabbit. And RR calls us “loons”??

Radio Goldy

I’ll be on the air with Kirby Wilbur, KVI-570, tomorrow morning (Thurs.) at 8 AM to discuss I-912, the “no new gas tax” initiative. Hope I don’t bore the audience, but I plan to come armed with some facts… you know, like the fact that this isn’t actually a “new” gas tax, but rather an increase intended to help match revenues to inflation.

Comments

  1. 493

    spews:

    or maybe you should report that it is just another money grab by people who can’t budget well? since this state has been run by democrats for so long, and you are convinced that democrats have all the answers….then, why oh why, do we have these money problems?

  2. 494

    pbj spews:

    Oh god no. Not that early in the morning. That screechy voice….argh!!! This is really a form of torture isn’t it Goldy?

  3. 495

    Goldy spews:

    Ghost… the gas tax is an excise tax, it is a fixed value per unit. Thus, in order to keep up with inflation, it must be raised over time. Even after the full 9.5 cents is added on, the tax as a percentage of the price of gas will still be at or below historic averages.

  4. 496

    spews:

    goldy……..that is right along the lines with “but people in europe pay alot more for gas”
    it falls in the “so what?” category don’t you think? it’s still more money coming out of people’s pockets that won’t be spent well.
    and your voice isn’t that bad.i rather enjoy it.

  5. 497

    David spews:

    Xmasghost @ 5: “that is right along the lines with ‘but people in europe pay alot more for gas'”

    No, it’s not. It’s just catching up to inflation. If your salary never changed, as time went on it would buy you less and less. You’d want a raise. So it is with the gas tax. As time has passed, the fixed cents-per-gallon tax buys less and less. We want more road work done, not less; so we have to raise the amount of the tax. Simple.

  6. 498

    David spews:

    I think we should pass a law adjusting the fixed cents-per-gallon gas tax to match inflation each year. Then this periodic jump wouldn’t be necessary, and it would be clear that the tax isn’t being hiked up in real terms (real, inflation-adjusted dollars).

    Or, just replace it with a separate sales tax on gas (note that as a straight replacement it would be higher than the standard state sales tax; probably closer to 12-13%).

  7. 499

    Scott spews:

    I was going to leave some long explanation of why this tax is a cheap shot and the whole “emergency clause” aspect, but how do you argue with a bunch of people who WANT to pay more taxes. It wouldn’t matter what was being taxed. As long as the democrat party here in WA says we need the tax you sheeple are going to support it.

  8. 500

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    Taxmongers are the cause of inflation, Gas is tied to every good or service in this state. If cost of doing business goes up because of a “small fee” then so does the price of the product, anyone for a ten dollar gallon of milk?

    We need to get this overtaxation crap in check with reality and real people’s budgets, most people can’t afford the side effects of this tax.

    Toll the Viaduct, Toll the 520, raise the price of non-commuter bus fare to the near cost of that a single motorists pays. Truth is that those would easily pay for this dilemma, and may even pay for it faster with a much smaller jab to the average person’s pocket book.

  9. 502

    spews:

    david…and you will be the first one to bitch when groceries cost more. don’t you get it at all?
    how did they spend the last gas tax money…..Hmmmmmmm?
    there ya go……

  10. 506

    dj spews:

    christmasghost and Tools above,

    Overtaxation, my ass. You know damn well that Washington falls right in the middle of in terms of states for tax burdens. We have it pretty good, and we have a damn nice state to live in (or now). The long-term problem is fucking antisocial losers who keep trying to gut the things that make this state worth living in.

    What did that last gas tax hike go to fund? Well, it made up for some of the revenue loss from I695, so that we could at least keep some ferries running, it patched up some highways, allowed some road projects to be undertaken, provided city, town and county transportation funds, and provided some services to rural areas. But, we now have to make up for the rest of the revenue loss from I695 and front some real money to get a bunch of fairly important transportation projects done, and, of course, check revenue loss from inflation.

    What the hell do you want? Dirt roads with rickshaw pullers as mass transit? Fucking redneck hicks!

  11. 507

    herbalizer spews:

    Gold,

    Nail that right wing cock face. I’ll try and call in if I can. Mr. Wilber is no match for me, I’ll destroy him like I have in the past.

  12. 508

    John spews:

    Winger O’Toole @ 9

    You have no problem then with a dollar plus increase per gallon from the oil companies but you do have a problem with the government charging 9.5 cents with the support of the business community and some Republicans for fixing and expanding the roads.

    Really thinking things out…

    Tell you what if you’re unable to part with your 2 ton plus gas hog then look here. This guy’s figured out a way to increase your gas mileage almost 20 percent.

    Then you might not mind the tax increase so much.

  13. 510

    spews:

    first he says…..”The long-term problem is fucking antisocial losers who keep trying to gut the things that make this state worth living in.”
    and then this regular rocket scientist finishes with the ever-classic and bigoted comment…..

    “Fucking redneck hicks!

    Comment by dj— 6/29/”

    wow….and here i thought all anti-social losers had anger problems. i guess that rumor was true.

  14. 511

    Mark D spews:

    Comment on #17.

    Winger, if you really want to think things out you should realize that the oil companies don’t set the price of oil. It is set on the world market via supply and demand factors. Ever start to think about the rapid growth of countries like China and India and what that does to the world demand for oil? The only way to keep prices low when demand increases is to increase supply…oops, that’s almost impossible thanks to the well intentioned but misguided restrictions on oil exploration/drilling. In the short run, the tax is someting we have immediate control over but not the market price.

    And yes, the oil companies do profit from the increased market price. They own a resource that is becoming more scarse reletive to demand. Just like the owner of property on lake Washington. But they can’t just set the price anymore than the property owner could.

    Mark D

  15. 512

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    John @ 17

    If we save and conserve gas doesn’t that defeat the purpose of the tax?

  16. 513

    John spews:

    @ 21

    I don’t think so. Everyone should be figuring out ways to conserve oil and gas. If not now, I’m convinced they’ll be pretty much forced to in the future and it won’t be government doing the forcing – it will be the “free market”.

  17. 514

    Mark D spews:

    Comment on #21 and #22.

    You are correct All tools, if there was massive gas conservation, the projected revenue wouldn’t materialize. The reason why a gas tax is so popular among politicians is for the very reason that it is hard to conserve. Gas is a very “inelastic” good. People rely on it and will pretty much buy the same amount even with an increase in price. This is the reason why a gas tax is extremely regressive.

    John, you are correct also in saying that the “free market” will force conservation. This is once oil is far too expensive to be practical. We aren’t there yet and the politicians know this. For the stated purposes of this particular tax all tools is correct. A measurable amount of conservation would defeat the purpose by decreasing the amount of revenue generated.

  18. 515

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    John @ 22

    I understand that, but it contradicts your fellow lefty’s reasoning for the tax. If we conserve gas that will earn us a larger tax on it, or it will get us a bigger tax on something else that everyone needs. It’s a never ending cycle that screws the rich and poor, and everything in between. Accountability for funds from the current tax coupled with a toll(use tax) on problem areas is the solution.

  19. 516

    Mark D spews:

    So called “progressives” that have actually studied Economics generally hate a gas tax because it does hit the poor/working class particularly hard. “Progressives” that don’t know anything about Economics tend to like a gas tax believing that it will “get people out of those gas guzzling SUVs.” Problem is, most people with gas guzzling SUVs can afford the increase while the guy driving the ’85 Honda Civic can’t.

    This doesn’t even account for the general rise in prices for goods associated with increased shipping costs due to a gas tax increase.

    A well-off person can afford paying an additional $5 at the grocery store if prices rise due to shipping cost increases. The poor person may really need that extra $5.

  20. 517

    Goldy spews:

    Mark D @25,

    You know, it irks me a little when righties lecture me about the regressive nature of excise taxes. You’re right… excise taxes like the gas tax are the most regressive tax we have. But until you put your money where your mouth is on this issue, and support a state income tax, comments like yours are all hot air as far as I’m concerned.

    We’ve got this incredibly, shitty, unfair and regressive tax structure… but it’s the tax structure we have. Help me change it, and I’ll be all over slashing the gas tax in return.

  21. 518

    Mark D spews:

    I have to agree with you to some extent, however, a gas tax is almost the most regressive tax you can come up with of all excise taxes. You may as well start taxing day-care but not nanny services.

    Tolls, plate tab fees based on true auto value, or gas milage would be much less regressive.

    I don’t know why you are irked that I simply pointed out how truly misguided a gas tax increase is.

    I’m with you on an income tax as long as it was coupled with a constitutional amendment that there would be no more sales tax at all.

  22. 519

    spews:

    mark d @25…you hit the nail right on the head.
    and goldy…so more taxes would be more fair to everyone? a state income tax? have you heard the rumor that washington is a boom or bust state? well, it’s true.
    the way things are going in a couple of years you guys will have to be taxing the bums in seattle because they will be the only ones still living here.
    how about a national sales tax and nothing else. how about a flat tax and nothing else? how about not taxing anyone who makes less than X ,the elderly, and perhaps providing jobs for others i.e. small business owners.
    you want progressive? get the government’s hands out of our pockets. do you really think most of our elected officials know where the food in the grocery store comes from much less what it’s like to actually work for a living??????

  23. 520

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    “But until you put your money where your mouth is on this issue, and support a state income tax, comments like yours are all hot air as far as I’m concerned.”

    The only hot air in here is that coming off of the bullshit that you say is our only option. The other option is staring you in the face, but you are refusing to see it. Toll the viaduct those who don’t like the toll will take an alternate rout to their office job, while those who have more money than time will pay it and not even bat an eye.
    There is nothing progressive about a state income tax, if anything it is regressing from a democratic state to a social*st state.

  24. 521

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 19

    No fucking way, that whole post was written with a smirk on my face.

    So. . . any comments on the substance of post 15, or. . . .

    Sorry about the “fucking redneck hicks” comment, but, you know, empirical evidence, and all that. . . .

  25. 522

    spews:

    dj….here’s some empirical eveidence for you. whenever a liberal is called on the carpet or challenged in any way the first thing out of their mouth is usually tainted with either a bigoted or homophobic comment. i find that very interesting………

  26. 523

    Mark D spews:

    Maybe we should have an excise tax on water. It’s a good that rich and poor alike find to be a necessity. Much like gas. We can charge $1 per gallon. It would also do some social good if we reduced water consumption. We almost had a drought here and we always here how we need to conserve water.

    Seem’s crazy, but that’s about what the gas tax truly is. But it’s actually worse.

  27. 525

    John spews:

    @ 29

    Yes, O’Toole fixing this broken tax system is the best thing to do – it is a freaking mess and utterly unfair. If you’re a Republican, kick the asses of your politicians to reach across the ailse and do the right thing!

    If a state income tax is so evil then why does that communist Bill Gates Senior support it while also supporting eliminating sales and B&O?

    Tolling is only a partial solution to expensive projects like the 520 replacement. It cannot possibly make a dent in a viaduct tunnel and can’t be applied at all if the viaduct is just taken down and the seawall is fixed which in my opinion is the best option.

  28. 526

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 31

    “here’s some empirical eveidence for you. whenever a liberal is called on the carpet or challenged in any way the first thing out of their mouth is usually tainted with either a bigoted or homophobic comment.”

    Yawn. . . .

    I am still waiting to see if you have an intelligent response to the substance of post 15.

  29. 527

    Mark D spews:

    Comment to #34

    I just have to add. A graduated income tax isn’t by definition a “fair” one.

  30. 528

    Mark D spews:

    Comment on 35

    Actually dj. If you look it up…and I really don’t want to right now, Washington has a pretty regressive tax system according to most progressive institutions that study such things…that’s the best response to post 15.

    I can site Goldy’s comment at 26 for some reference.

  31. 529

    John spews:

    @ 36

    What’s unfair about it? The rich man benefits the most from this country why shouldn’t he pay a reasonable amount more. It’s not like he can’t afford it.

    That being said, IMHO the richest man shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his income local, state, federal combined. In war time he should pay more (aren’t we at war by the way?).

  32. 530

    dj spews:

    Mark D @ 37

    “If you look it up Washington has a pretty regressive tax system according to most progressive institutions that study such things…that’s the best response to post 15.”

    I agree completely that the WA tax structure is regressive (I’ve read the Gates Commission report). I have spoken out against the current tax system and have supported a state income tax to replace it. I view the current gas tax as triage for I-695. After the triage, I sincerely help that politicians can work together to fix the system.

    That being said, it is not an answer to post 15. The state tax burden for most Washingtonians is modest. I agree that the rich are under paying and the poor are picking up the tab for them. That sucks, but we are not leading the pack by any means. People who scream and whine about taxes being too high either don’t know the facts or are being intentionally misleading.

  33. 531

    Mark D spews:

    John, are you kidding? Some people make more because they work harder. Let’s say you work 40 hrs per week and earn $30,000 per year. You aren’t taxed on the $$ you earn from $0 to $20k. From $20k to $30k you are taxed at 15% on that $10k. And you have a co-worker that takes overtime. He ends up working an average of 50 hours per week earns $40,000 per year and is not taxed from $0 to $20k taxed at 15% at $20k to $30k and then taxed at 25% from $30k to $40k. He has worked harder, yet his hard work has effectively been punished by being taxed at a rate 10% higher. It may be fair if the rate stayed at 15% but that’s not what happens with a graduated rate.

    As an aside, you should check out how high the top marginal income tax rates were in the 50s and 60s. JFK actually lowered the top rate from some 90% to around 70%. Who would work for that? Thing is almost almost no one did. We are at war, however, sometimes reducing tax rates actually increases revenue. You could make an arguement that reducing taxes in a time of war is more productive.

  34. 532

    spews:

    dj….i’m good, but not that good. it’s pretty hard to come up with a brilliantly intelligent response to something that is less than intelligent.what you said made no sense to anyone in the real world…it was rather like a long winded excuse for why the democrats/politicians have not made washington the utopia they so often promise.
    it’s a bit like hearing kids ask “are we there yet?”
    there really isn’t a good answer is there?

  35. 533

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    How nice to have Big Business and Big Labor agree on something! And something a number of republicans support as well as democrats!

  36. 534

    Mark D spews:

    Goldy, this has been a good post and sorry I’ve commented so much. If brevity is the sign of wit, I’m obviously in trouble. LOL

    Mark.

  37. 535

    John spews:

    @40

    What did I just say? Something about 1/3? If rich guy earns 1 million in a year, nobody going to need to throw a bake sale for him if he pays 333 grand in taxes.

    While we’re talking about communists like Bill Gates Senior, I’m a reminded of another communist called Ike Eisenhower who scoffed at lowering taxes on the rich because we were in the midst of a little thing called the “cold war”. Although he took that attitude more out of spite for the out of control Pentagon beaureaucrats. So then Kennedy lowered taxes on the rich. Fine – as long as the government lives within its means – I’ve got no problem with it.

  38. 536

    spews:

    being said, IMHO the richest man shouldn’t have to pay more than 1/3 of his income local, state, federal combined. In war time he should pay more (aren’t we at war by the way?).

    Comment by John— 6/29/05 @ 5:50 pm

    John- what do you see are top five main functions of the federal government? Just curios. I can see defense probably would not be number one.. or would it? I do agree if someone is taxed over 1/3 for federal,state and local taxes it is excessive.

  39. 537

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 41

    Yes, I see your point. I’ll try very simple sentences and baby steps for you. Perhaps you can then provide an insightful responses . . .

    1. You stated @ 2 that the tax was a money grab.

    1a. The State of Washington ranks 24 out of 50 states for tax burden.

    1b. Initiative 695 (I-695) defunded transportation in this state. The gas tax increase compensates, in part, for that revenue loss.

    2. You stated @ 5 that the money will not be spent well.

    2a. Washington was just ranked as one of the best managed states.

    2b. Is there any good evidence to suggest that “the money will not be spent well?”

    3. You asked “how did they spend the last gas tax money?”

    3a. It made up for some of the revenue loss from I-695

    3b. It helped keep at least some ferries running.

    3c. It was used for highway repairs.

    3d. It funded some road projects.

    3e. It provided cities, towns and counties with transportation funds and provided some services to rural areas.

    3.comment.a The current gas tax hike makes up for the rest of the revenue loss from I695.

    3.comment.b The current gas tax hike provides funds for a bunch of fairly important transportation projects.

    3.comment.c The current gas tax hike compensates from revenue loss by inflation.

    question.a Do you prefer dirt roads for our state transportation infrastructure?

    question.b Is it your preference to have rickshaws constitute our major mass transportation system?

  40. 538

    spews:

    2b. Is there any good evidence to suggest that “the money will not be spent well?”

    Until audits are done… no one really know? How many of you donks out there signed I-900? Until independant performance and financial audits are performed you should assume that all money will “not be well spent”.

  41. 539

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    John @ 34

    “If a state income tax is so evil then why does that communist Bill Gates Senior support it while also supporting eliminating sales and B&O?”

    If you get rid of B&O it makes him more money and therefore he doesn’t mind paying income tax(less over all tax), It’s not that he is a goodwill embassador.

  42. 540

    Mark D spews:

    #40 John…in my example..neither person paid anywhere near 1/3 of their income in taxes. But was it fair? Would it be fair for someone only making $10k per year to pay $3,200 in income tax?

  43. 541

    Mark D spews:

    Also, in my example, person A has an average tax rate of 5%. $1,500 in tax on $30,000. While person B has an average rate of 10%. $4,000 in tax on $40,000. He’s taxed twice as much for working 25% more than person A. This example isn’t really that unrealistic either.

  44. 542

    Mark D spews:

    Comment on #34,48. The very wealthy are helped by an income tax because most of their compensation is paid in forms other than income. Once you have wealth, you aren’t too worried about income tax. Just those trying to become wealthy are.

  45. 543

    John spews:

    @45

    What does the preamble to the Constitution say? Defense is in there but it’s not the first thing mentioned. Wonder why? Does two bodies of water called the Atlantic and Pacific Ocean mean anything to you?

    @48

    So all his shilling for the income tax just amounts to a tax break for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? Do they have to pay B&O? Sorry, I don’t buy it.

    @49

    Absolutely not. Again, in my reckoning no-one in our society should have to pay more than a third of their income in taxes to support all levels of government – in peacetime. That’s where you start in determining “fairness”. It’s common sense. People of lesser means of course pay a much smaller percentage.

  46. 544

    spews:

    dj….oh, thanks for the baby steps. so i’ll do the same for you.
    R-E-A-L-I-T-Y
    how are the roads now? gee…i guess that money wasn’t spent so well or you wouldn’t have such a long whiney list of honey-do’s for the state tax payers, would you?

  47. 545

    Mark D spews:

    John, common sense would say that people with lesser means would pay a lesser amount not necessarily a smaller percentage.

    Also, you may not buy that the super wealthy like an income tax because it actually benefits them but you may want to look into it. If you have $300 million in securities, cash, REITS, trusts, etc. and make $1 million a year in income which portion of your money would you rather pay a higher rate on?

    Also, it would be nice if you didn’t have to pay sales tax on that yacht or Bentley.

  48. 546

    John spews:

    @54

    Which is why I’m not necessarily in favor of dropping the sales and B&O tax. I’d like to see them the lowest in the nation but not eliminated. This would take the edge off of the income tax and smooth out the volatility. I don’t want to see a situation like in Oregon where they envy our sales and B&O.

    However, if there’s one I’d have to drop it would be the sales tax but that’s only because of the economic distortions on the border with Oregon.

    The yacht and Bentley are neither here nor there. How many yachts and Bentleys can a rich guy indulge in?

  49. 547

    Mark D spews:

    John, thanks for the fun discussion.

    I know the Bagwan Rashneesh (sp?) in Oregon had a fleet of Rolls Royces. LOL

    The yachts and Bentleys were just an example, when you spend $200 to $800k per year on stuff (and I know people who do) you’d love to see the sales tax go. Especially if your $$ doesn’t come from income but from investments.

    Also, you know how taxes work. If the tax is there at all the propensity of government is to gradually increase rates. We’ll start with a decent income tax and small sales tax. Years from now we’ll have an oppressive income tax and sales tax right where it is now.

    The business tax in Washington is extremely convoluted. It taxes gross receipts. You pay tax on $$ brought in even if your expenses were more. I noticed that Washington Mutual just decided to open their new 4,200 job processing facility in Texas. Wonder why that happened?

  50. 548

    Mark D spews:

    John, all that said, I do agree that no one should pay more than 1/3. Some people pay 1/2 now with income tax, property tax, and sales tax.

  51. 549

    John spews:

    @56

    It hasn’t been that fun for me.. And it ends predictably. Any proposal for a reasonable taxation system that is spread fairly and evenly over the economy is met with the same tired argument of “years from now we’ll have an oppressive income tax”, etc., which of course means you have no intention of doing anything short of gutting public education and the tattered remains of the social safety net.

    If something’s broken, don’t whine, fix it. If you’re not engaged in the system that’s supposed to serve your interests then you shouldn’t be surprised when it turns on you.

  52. 550

    Mark D spews:

    Okay…you should study America before the 1930s, from WWII until the 60s, and after the mid 1960s as far as taxes go. In most cases we had better “safety nets” but private ones. We have spent trillions since the mid ’60s on the “war on poverty” but poverty has grown. We are spending much more on education but the results are worse. In Washington DC we spend almost $10k per student with some of the worst results in the nation. As a nation, we spend more per student than any other nation, however, we are ranked well below most industrialized nations in academic preformance.

    Today we don’t have a safety net. I’m happy to help provide a safety net. Today we have an entitlement net. Throwing more $$ at government programs hasn’t worked. If you don’t like the US example, look at the countries where it’s all done by the government and see if you’d like us to try that.

    As far as a reasonable taxation system, I’d go for a flat income tax both state and national. With the income tax applied to the gain on investments. No deductions.

  53. 551

    spews:

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    I gues it would depend on how you see it. Here is how I see it:

    establish Justice- establish judiciary,legislative and executive branch of gov for lawmaking and enforcing.

    insure domestic Tranquility,- establishment of states, national guard–made sure the states got along.

    provide for the common defense,- DOD,Navy,Marines,Army-Taxes

    promote the general Welfare- (Liberals get confused on this one)
    Promote happiness,prosperity,health and well being to ALL people

    secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity- In short secure freedom for ourselves and our kin.

    I dont see social programs as part of the preamble thats for sure.

  54. 552

    Mark D spews:

    Also, I would exempt the first $10-15kk from taxes per individual.
    And, you couldn’t have your taxes withheld from your paycheck. You would have to write a check to the IRS or State each month or quarter for what you owed.

  55. 553

    Mark D spews:

    RUFUS, Liberals I know have actually quoted that to me as “‘Provide’ for the general welfare. Big difference.

  56. 554

    spews:

    62

    Here is more clarity on this issue

    Welfare
    welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [

    Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.

  57. 555

    spews:

    Welfare
    welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.

    Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.

  58. 556

    John spews:

    I don’t buy that “safety net” history lesson. If they were so good then Hoover would have had a second term.

    I don’t buy the trillions thing either. Not all that much was spent on what Johnson rolled out as the “war on poverty”. More was spent on AFDC, HUD and food stamps. Now a lot of that has been “reformed” starting with Reagan and on up through Clinton and Bush II and you’re surprised there’s more poverty? Have any real figures?

    As for education almost all “industrialized nations” include the “the countries where it’s all done by the government”. So what’s the solution? Standardized tests like the WASL where teachers are forced to coach students to pass the tests otherwise lose their jobs? NCLB is proving to be a disaster even in the reddest of states like Utah.

    As for the “entitlement net” look how well Bush’s proposals for Social Security have flown. His sparkling delivery across sixty whistlestops did little to change minds over that so-called abomination of income redistribution.

    The flat tax is utterly unfair as applied in a revenue-neutral scenario. The goal of flat taxers is to gut non-defense discretionary spending period.

    The wealthy have benefited from everthing this country has to give and it’s only right they should contribute a proportionately greater share of their surplus to even the playing field. The last thing we need in this country is an entrenched aristocracy. We have too much of that already. To paraphrase another communist Warren Buffet, “there’s been a class war and my class has won.”

  59. 557

    spews:

    61

    Ditto– I would not be if only people who paid taxes were allowed to vote for representatives… but since there is one vote per person and everyone can vote then most everybody should pay some taxes and it should be out of their pocket not their paycheck. Only in extreme cases should you not pay any taxes. It is all about fiscal responsibility.

  60. 558

    spews:

    John– I dont agree on your issues… but there is a way for liberals and constitutionalist to exist. The welfare programs you are fond of can be implemented on the state level where they should be. The taxes also should be collected on the local level. That way you can have your liberal haven states. It wouldnt last long since most of the productive people would move to freer states and would be bankrupt within a genration or two. Hey it a free world… at least it should be in the United states.

  61. 559

    dj spews:

    RUFUS @ 47

    “Until audits are done… no one really know? “

    Not so. There are many, many ways we find out about badly spent money without formal external audits. There is no shortage of people both within government and from outside of government pointing out specific examples of waste in governments. Audits can help (sometimes, but they are no guarantee–e.g. Arthur Anderson), and during the last legislative session an audit law was passed that will contribute to in-place mechanisms. The “independent audits will solve all problems” is an exceedingly naïve stance!

    Washington is not found to be one of the best managed states because there is lots of waste!

  62. 560

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 53

    “how are the roads now? gee…i guess that money wasn’t spent so well or you wouldn’t have such a long whiney list of honey-do’s for the state tax payers, would you?”

    Are you really that stupid? (Please, tell me you are being willfully stupid).

    Very simply: Revenue was lost in 1999. Last gas tax increase was insufficient to completely compensate. Inflation eats away at revenue requiring regular hikes of gas excise tax. Roads suffered. Any questions?

    See? That is not so hard to understand, is it?

  63. 561

    spews:

    DJ

    Is it too much to ask that we treat government the same way we treat big business. Big business must have an independant audit done 4 time a year! Most people just want it once a year for government. Audits will not solve all problems.. not at all. Audits will uncover most problems though. Only the taxpayers can solve the problems once uncovered. The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT. Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.

  64. 562

    John spews:

    @ 60

    I count social programs like Social Security as part of “promoting” the general welfare.

    Social Security means seniors don’t have to freeze to death in a cardboard shack going hungry.

    By the way my grandfather was a scoffer of Social Security – didn’t want to pay the payroll tax so he worked under the table all his life. So when he went to the SS office – lo and behold – he couldn’t collect – so he married someone for her SS money.

    @67

    Well Rufus, Idaho is just across the border. Don’t want to go there? Do they have an income tax?

  65. 563

    Donnageddon spews:

    “but there is a way for liberals and constitutionalist to exist.”

    Yeah, but that requires moving all the conservatives to Iceland.

  66. 566

    dj spews:

    RUFUS @ 70

    “Audits will uncover most problems though.”

    Nope. Most problems are uncovered by ordinary means like budget reports (esp. going over budget!), low-level whistle blowers, legislative inquiries, ordinary internal audits, and management reports. Performance audits will occasionally find ways of making things better.

    “Only the taxpayers can solve the problems once uncovered.”

    Also, completely untrue and reveals to me that you really don’t understand anything about state government. Voters vote for elected officials; they do not solve performance problems within units (most of which are small and isolated problems anyway). Performance problems are almost always solved within an agency, usually by simple procedures.

    “The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT.”

    This is propaganda. There is no evidence that an auditing agency that is independent within a government is any less effective than a 900 type independent system.

    “Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.”

    You mean relative to the audits passed in the last legislative session? If you think so, you are wrong. There is not a shred of evidence that the system just enacted is any less effective than the 900 system. People telling you it is better are making stuff up without a scrap of evidence. Don’t be so easily fooled! Demand evidence when people make such “too good to be true” claims!

  67. 567

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 74

    and why was revenue lost in 1999″

    Because the legislature repealed the car tab tax (as a response to I-695).

  68. 568

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 74

    “and why was revenue lost in 1999″

    Oh. . . and I forgot to mention. . . $1.00 of gas tax collected in 1998 was only worth $0.98 by 1999. So that was another source of revenue loss in 1999.

  69. 569

    spews:

    The key word for audits to work is INDEPENDANT.”

    This is propaganda. There is no evidence that an auditing agency that is independent within a government is any less effective than a 900 type independent system.

    “Proposition 900 if passed will save this state 100’s of millions of tax dollars.”

    You mean relative to the audits passed in the last legislative session? If you think so, you are wrong. There is not a shred of evidence that the system just enacted is any less effective than the 900 system. People telling you it is better are making stuff up without a scrap of evidence. Don’t be so easily fooled! Demand evidence when people make such “too good to be true” claims!

    How can you have any evidence when independant audits have never been implemented. You believe what the government tell you? Relying on internal audits is like rely on financial statement prepared by a corporation. All the information that you get off the government site is all propaganda. DJ…all other donks.. why are your so against independant audits? If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about. The repubs and independant cant claim that the information is tainted on independant audits. You can show them how well this donk run state is running. You dont need to reply.. I know why.

  70. 570

    spews:

    I don’t buy that “safety net” history lesson. If they were so good then Hoover would have had a second term.

    Obviously not since you dont believe in the constitution as it was originally written.

  71. 571

    Donnageddon spews:

    “Obviously not since you dont believe in the constitution as it was originally written.”

    Written on Hemp I might add!

  72. 572

    Chuck spews:

    OK here we go, shades of I695
    We just bought another automobile, a 1955 Packard Clipper. It will be married to 1955 plates as a classic for permanant registration:)
    Point is though I was going through the old papers and I saw the 1993 registration. It was $47.95…. that is $50.00 for an old beater in pre I695! This is the “beater” that the poor was driving to get by. People said thatI695 saved the poor nothing! Eat this! This is reality hitting you in the face. In 1993 $20.00 was 35 lbs of ground beef on the table for the kids (I was there)…Thank You Tim Eyeman, once again!

  73. 575

    dj spews:

    RUFUS @ 78

    “How can you have any evidence when independant audits have never been implemented.”

    Exactly my point. People make up shit like “independent audits will save us 100’s of millions of tax dollars.” There is no evidence that audits (beyond the internal budgeting and auditing systems that the state has had in place for decades) will save us $100+ Million—especially given the increased costs involved. So, it is really simply bullshit pulled out of some propagandist’s ass to claim that “independent” audits (a la I900) will do anything whatsoever beyond what the legislature passed this year.

    You believe what the government tell you? Relying on internal audits is like rely on financial statement prepared by a corporation. All the information that you get off the government site is all propaganda.”

    I don’t believe what many politicians tell me, that is true. However, almost all internal budgets information is accurate. BTW, this is true for businesses as well. The rare exceptions (like Enron) get big press, but really only account for a tiny fraction of businesses.

    BTW: Why do you feel that the auditing legislation that just passed is less “independent” that I900? And how will audits be less likely to succeed under existing legislation? I’ve never gotten an I900 supporter to spell this out with any specifics.

    “DJ…all other donks.. why are your so against independant audits?”

    Sorry, I’m not a Democrat. Also, I am not particularly against “independent audits”—I believe we have just gotten them!

    “If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to worry about.”

    Huh? They are going to audit me, too?

    The repubs and independant cant claim that the information is tainted on independant audits.

    Again, what evidence is there that the modifications that I900 makes to the just-passed legislation will make any difference whatsoever? Are you really so naive that you believe that “independent” auditors cannot be ineffective, lazy, inattentive, stupid, or even corrupt?

    RUFUS, lay off the talk radio—your mind is being poisoned!

  74. 576

    spews:

    dj…has it crossed your mind yet that they didn’t “lose” revenue…they OVER SPENT????
    you could give those monkeys in olympia 20 times the rate of inflation every year and they would still spend more. they are here to serve us…not the other way around.

  75. 577

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 85

    has it crossed your mind yet that they didn’t “lose” revenue…they OVER SPENT????

    I live in a reality-based world. I know that change occurs between appropriating fund and actually doing. It is a happy day when somebody estimates costs exactly. Likewise, some costs come from on-the-job discovery: so, you go to reshingle a roof and you find that the wooden support has started rotting (probably because some stupid-ass initiative defunded roof maintenance when the roof should have been reshingled).

    As it happens, sometimes projects come in over budget. Sometimes under budget. If I did not see things going over budget occasionally, I would become deeply suspicious that the contract bidding was rigged and the contractors were skimming.

    Will audits prevent projects from going overbudget? Perhaps some of them, but mostly auditors will be soaking up the productivity of employees who spend more of their time doing paperwork for, yet, another auditing system.

    “you could give those monkeys in olympia 20 times the rate of inflation every year and they would still spend more. they are here to serve us…not the other way around.”

    Oh. . . I’m sorry, my response above was based on an assumption that you wanted to have a serious discussion.

    What can one say to a statement like that, except “You are a fucking idiot!”

  76. 579

    spews:

    dj….well, isn’t that your usual response to people that don’t agree with you?
    no one could have a serious discussion with someone like yourself that is such a partisan that if the democrats in olympia were setting pre-schoolers on fire for laughs you would have a REALLY DAMN GOOD REASON WHY IT WAS A GOOD THING.
    prove me wrong here….name something that a democrat has done in this state that you think is really wrong and they should be held accountable for it…..
    perhaps patty murray singing the praises of osama bin laden, or jihad jim having tea with saddam…..just a couple of ideas for you……….
    waiting waiting waiting………….

  77. 580

    dj spews:

    christmasghost @ 88,

    “name something that a democrat has done in this state that you think is really wrong and they should be held accountable for”

    Sure! Keep in mind, there were over 500 pieces of legislation in the last session. Most of them were no brainers and resulted in a near unamious votes. You and I would probabably agree on most of these things. This blog selects for things we disagree on (and gives us an opportunity to debate them).

    Here is a couple of things that Democrats have done that I dislike:

    1. Washington legislature cutting the car tab tax in 1999 REALLY pissed me off. They did not have to do so, since the initiative was snuffed out in court.

    2. Cantwell voted in favor of authorization for Bush to go to war against Iraq. That REALLY pissed me off.

    3. I am unhappy that the current legislature “fixed” the transportation funding crises by raising the gas tax, rather than a more progressive tax option, although I recognize and accept it as triage. I hope we get an income tax to (largely) replace other regressive taxes.

    4. I am, in general, unhappy with the cuts to higher education by the state under the Democrats. The situation is so extreme that the UW is practically proposing to become a private university. I think that is unfair to people who have paid taxes for years and their Kids cannot get into the University.

  78. 581

    spews:

    dj…okay ,fair enough. BUT….where would you get the money for all those things in this state. i mean…in reality.this state is not exactly a big producer of anything.if you get your wish and there is an income tax here….there would be no one here that could pay it in less than five years. i know that everyone here loves the state and all that….my husband is a many generation native…..BUT it really just isn’t that special a place, especially to do business.or to live…i mean…people here can’t even DRIVE for god’s sake.you could put in all the roads you wanted and the fact that every other car you see has a dent and no one actually knows how to drive, much less over bridges or in traffic….that would undo any “good” done by putting in more roads. seattle is famous for what again? fish, a space needle that has been around for five seconds in the big scheme of things and really really rude people.
    and i haven’t even touched on the aggressive super-entitled bums that attack you on the street.
    there was a classic letter in the [i think] seattle times a few years ago from a high tech business owner from san francisco that wanted to relocate his company [and jobs] up here. but, after spending a week in seattle all he wanted to do was run screaming and he wrote a letter detailing what i, and alot of other people have already noticed……..people here are rude, obnoxious and entitled.
    oh…and let’s not forget so lazy that you marvel at the mere fact that they are breathing on their own.
    seattle is a joke waiting to really happen………and yes, that’s just my opinion. however my super liberal friend from santa cruz was so appalled after a weekend in seattle that all she kept saying was “i thought you were pulling my leg……”
    there you go.

  79. 582

    John spews:

    xmas @ 90

    There is 26 billion (that’s billion with a B) worth of manufacturing in the Duwamish and most of the country’s fresh fish harvest comes into Ballard. Washington is headquarters to world’s largest software firm. Washington is no slouch in agriculture, timber and food processing.

    I’ve driven two cars around here for years and I haven’t gotten dent yet.

    People are rude here? Have you ever been to New York?

    Let the pols put an income tax and reform package on table – if you don’t like it then tell us why. On the other hand, why bother, the pols could eliminate the Sales, B&O and cut your property tax in the process and you’d STILL complain you were being robbed.

  80. 583

    spews:

    yes…i have been to new york, many times.but, you know, new york is new york…..they are famous for rude. and they do it with style. whereas here….well,they are just lazy and rude.
    hmmmm….world’s biggest software company…yup you’ve got me there alright. but in this case that’s like being famous for having the world’s biggest bankrobber living in town. i’m not a fan of gates or the way he does “business”…..and what i find truly fascinating are all the seattle liberals that bitch about corporate america and big oil but kiss gates’ ass. interesting moral quandry there, don’t you think?
    so seattle is famous for fish and having the worlds’s biggest “big fish in a little pond”
    wow….truly awe inspiring.
    and agriculture??? heard of california????

  81. 584

    K spews:

    I work for government and am responsible for implementing large capital projects. And I can tell you there is waste, it is waste that is forced into projects as “mitigation”. Have you seen the community demands for Brightwater (not mine)? They will add millions to a project serving an area which has pumped it’s sewage south for 20 years. Ever see the lid over I-90 on Mercer Island? That stretch of road set records for cost not because of state worker inefficiency but because of local commuity extortion. Everyone wants government effeicieny until they build it near them, then they want every cent of mitigation they can get.

  82. 585

    spews:

    92
    I was born and raised in Seattle and I agree with you for the most part. The people dont bother me at all…their politics do. I could only wish that the politics around here was as “stand-offish” as the people are… but that is only a dream. I do have to admit that when the sun sets on Seattle there is probably no more beautiful place in the world… and I have been places. Too bad you can only see the sun 30-45 days out the year though.

  83. 586

    spews:

    DJ

    I don’t believe what many politicians tell me, that is true. However, almost all internal budgets information is accurate. BTW, this is true for businesses as well. The rare exceptions (like Enron) get big press, but really only account for a tiny fraction of businesses.

    So we should eliminate independant audits for business since almost all of them are telling the truth.. there is not need for them. All we need is an internal audit team and we can believe them. Dammit… and I was told in college that the SEC and the public at large depend on these audits to make financial decisions. All that money down the tubes. All that money wasted because they had to hire and outside public accounting firm when they could have produced them all along by their own people. Thats it.. how may out there will be will to sign and initiative to end independant audits of publicly traded corporations. This is a travesty…we need to do something!

  84. 587

    spews:

    rufus……..yes…seattle COULD be beautiful if it only figured out what “it” was. there is nothing so attractive as being who you really are.
    alas….poor dirty old seattle has the world’s biggest identity crisis going on.
    maybe they could just be famous for that? “we pretend to be new orleans, san francisco, new york and mostly DETROIT or terra haute on the sound……..”

  85. 588

    John spews:

    xmas @ 96

    What kind of a hermetically sealed suburban or x-urban hovel do you live in? Are you agoraphobic? Do you ever come out for fresh air and when you do is all you see is a landscape of dents in cars, poor public education (especially in Seattle), people who are rude or at least rude in your presence (for which you are eternally wondering why) or people who don’t exclaim , “how high?” whenever you snap “jump!”.

    Are all those bad drivers Democrats? They must be because even though I’ve known Republicans to speak ill of one another (Dino Rossi being an egregious example), a corollary of the eleventh commandment must read, “thou shalt not accuse a fellow Republican of poor driving habits.”

    Seattle is what it is dammit. Just like L.A., just like New York, just like San Francisco, just like any other place. Deal with it.

    Washington state is what it is. The law of the land here is the GMA because the people voted it in and didn’t want Washington state to be another California.

    And yeah Gates is a first class A-hole but he is what he is.. He built a fortune 500 company in spite of or maybe because of what he is. And I suppose you were all against the government trying bring him to heel. The biggest slammers of Gates are people I know who work for him or used to..

    Why do you live here? Can you say anything positive about this place? Is there some other place you’d rather be?

    If so, please for the grace of G*d, go there!

    P.S.: I live in Seattle and I vote for Jim McDermott, know why? HE PISSES WINGERS OFF – unthinking people who wear orange, dance to the tune of a mad pied piper who blogs all day from a tony house off Greenlake and have nothing better to do than to accuse people of serious crimes by filling up spreadsheets with nonsense numbers and jumping to conclusions – and then badmouthing everything in their path when their worldview collapses!

  86. 589

    spews:

    oh john….that was such a good post. i haven’t had a laugh like that all week.
    so to start at the bottom and work up….you vote for jihad jim just because he pisses off republicans???? oh my god….too rich. do you realize just how incredibly stupid that is all by itself?
    how irresponsible are you anyway? why don’t you vote for someone that might actually have a brain and a good idea? look….i don’t vote for anyone based on them pissing other people off or because of the letter after their name. that would just be stupid.
    you know that whole “anyone but bush” campaign???? it didn’t work….don’t you get it?
    but, hey, i’m glad and sorry at the same time that so many liberals are so dumb.
    gates built a fortune by ripping off other people with real ideas. that is who you admire?
    and i was all for the government hammering him…i still think they should. he is a crook. period.
    your whole post is one long laundry list of why, if this state and it’s people’s attitudes don’t change it will continue to be the nation’s largest joke.
    the bad drivers are just washingtonians……i don’t think it’s a partisan issue. but that brings to mind, yet again, why you are all so backward here. you think EVERYTHING is a partisan issue.
    mindless idiocy.
    do i ever go outside? that is such a mature question…but i’ll answer it anyway. of course. constantly…i garden ,row, and sail. there are you happy?
    “seattle is what it is, dammit”…..okay, i’ll bite….just what is “it”???????
    a non descript ,very dirty, boring city chock a block full of morons with nothing to claim as it’s own?
    as to why i live here……i love my husband. and i have tried[really i have] for the last 6 years to find one positive thing about washington in general. you have lovely trees……and then, alas, they are gone. hood canal used to be nice too. and then it wasn’t. for a state that claims to be full of environmentalists you sure don’t know how to take care of anything.
    you are all just talk talk talk……..
    let me see…… a state that is nicer? wouldn’t the list be shorter if we narrowed it down to states that aren’t? like, oh i don’t know………utah.
    i don’t think it is any coincidence that the state of washington is shaped like a big piece of milk toast…..as you said, it just is what it is.
    have you ever heard anyone say they could hardly wait to move here?
    nah……..

  87. 590

    John spews:

    Wheeww. Dr Freud – here’s your patient. Chock-a-block full of projection. Have at ‘er!

    As for “jihad jim”, I didn’t say I like that he makes “republicans” mad, I said I like that he makes WINGERS mad. HUGE difference.

    John Bridges and Sam Reed are principled Republicans and I will support them in the future.

  88. 591

    spews:

    john……dr.freud…that’s cute…really. but now why don’t you tell me why you uber-environmentalists here live in a state covered in trash and polluted up to here?
    wingers..okay. and the point of that is????? i still think it is incredibly silly to waste a vote just to piss someone off…so i must assume you are just talking here and you really do vote your concience [i hope]
    what has jihad jim done for you?

  89. 592

    John spews:

    Yo Xmas!

    You’re wrong again!!!!

    Finally, about Jim McDermott, thanks to Tom DeLay, Jim can’t do much of anything along with just about every other member of his caucus. If the R’s are defeated and Jim takes a chairmanship then I’ll be able to better judge whether I should replace him or not. For right now he’s doing exactly what I him to do: PISSING WINGERS OFF!

  90. 593

    spews:

    yo john…….and exactly what gets accomplished on behalf of the citizens of this country when people vote in fools like mcdermott just to piss people off?
    you know….here’s a heads up for you. we all live in the same country and playing pissing games like this is beyond childish.
    we have terrorists and real threats to deal with and people like you are making up boogie men from ANOTHER PARTY…..so sad.
    i have a news flash for you einstein…it doesn’t matter what party you are from, to the terrorists we ALL LOOK ALIKE.
    are you going to blame it on israel next?

  91. 594

    John spews:

    And xmas the unthinking – we know a lot about the terrorists, what they look like, how they associate, the kind of targets they prefer – it’s not rocket science. It doesn’t mean we have to spend 300 billion dollars invading a country with an ordnance and ammo inventory 2/3 the size of the U.S.’ inventory, perfect for making bombs – right in the midst of a hornet’s nest of ethnic groups with scores to settle – a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and little to nothing to do with Jihadists.

    So why did we do it? Could the second largest reserves of oil have anything to do with it?

    You run a high-tech business, you think you’re pretty smart – read this. It’s high school chemistry with a little college analysis – and don’t worry the author’s actually a little right wing.

    Now read this.

    Remember Bush’s Hydrogen Initiative?

    Are you still proud you voted for the worst man ever to attain the office?

  92. 595

    Chuck spews:

    John@103
    “Are you still proud you voted for the worst man ever to attain the office?”>>>

    I didnt vote for Bill Clinton, John….

Radio Goldy

I’ll be on the Bryan Suits Show tonight at 6 pm, KVI-570, talking about the Monorail. I assume Bryan wants me on so he can show that yes, even flaming liberals like me oppose the Monorail.

Hmm… this will be a tough one. My position on the Monorail is actually rather nuanced, but as we all know, nuance doesn’t play well on talk radio.

Comments

  1. 596

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    Just speak the truth, don’t try and be disagreable just for the sake of playing the other side of the game.

  2. 597

    GBS spews:

    Screw the topic, Goldy, Give ‘em hell on everything else. Here’s your chance to grab at radio glory and make a name for yourself. AM 1090 here you come.

  3. 598

    righton spews:

    In a town where politics often limits true free speech, why don’t you 2 have an honest conversation; roughly, “man we need something like this, but man they sure screwed this one up. Do we gulp accept a known bad deal, or kill it knowing nothing else is coming down the pike.”

    Separetely, I’d think hardcore Queen Anne libs would want to kill the monorail so they could fund the viaduct…

  4. 601

    Goldy spews:

    Bryan @4,

    Hmmm… and you never told me you weren’t.

    CandrewB @5,

    Why Bryan? It’s weird how people become all-purpose talking heads. But somebody’s got to do it.

  5. 602

    Chuck spews:

    Damn Goldy, you are coming right along, next thing you know you will start chewing tobacco, buy a 4×4 pickup, mount a gun rack in it and throw a chain in the back of it and drive around town looking for liberals like the rest uf us redneck backwards “neo”conservatives!

  6. 603

    headless lucy spews:

    Bill O’Reilly wears mascara. Try to work that into the conversation. Like: “This monorail plan looks as bad as Bill O’Reilly’s mascara!” I’m sure the conservatives will love this gentle jibe as we all know what good sports they are.

  7. 604

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    Loco lucy @ 8

    By the time you posted he had been off the radio for a while, thank you being so observant.

  8. 606

    spews:

    Hey Goldy– you say your a little too nuanced to go on talk radio. I think your right.

    nu·ance Listen: [ näns, ny-, n-äns, ny- ]
    n.

    A subtle or slight degree of difference, as in meaning, feeling, or tone; a gradation.

    Expression or appreciation of subtle shades of meaning, feeling, or tone: a rich

    Nuance is perfect word for liberals… especially when it comes to counting votes in democratic counties!!! If it feels right do it.

  9. 607

    Donnageddon spews:

    Stupid adjective

    1 a : slow of mind : OBTUSE b : given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an unintelligent or careless manner c : lacking intelligence or reason : BRUTISH
    2 : dulled in feeling or sensation : TORPID
    3 : marked by or resulting from unreasoned thinking or acting : SENSELESS
    4 a : lacking interest or point b : VEXATIOUS, EXASPERATING

    Yep, that pretty much pegs Republican’s voting for Neo-cons.

  10. 609

    Donnageddon spews:

    RUFUS, you don’t get it, when you vote for these neo-cons, you beat yourself, and the rest of us with you.

    Time to clean house in the GOP and get your party back.

  11. 610

    headless lucy spews:

    Rufus, you are an ass and you need a good ass-whuppen’ to straighten you out. That’s the only thing that will work with you. There is abundant evidence everywhere that your party has stolen two presidential elections and many lesser ones. I won’t even go into the details because you already know them. The only thing that will stop you is the fear of God and, yes, it has come to that. You can ban people from your blogs but we’ll let you have your say here. As long as you understand that you are viewed as a lying fascist with un- American and un-Deocratic views and actions and you are also anti- Jesus.

  12. 611

    All tools here, and yet there are still screws loose. spews:

    Donnageddon @ 14

    Same could be said of the Dems, you have to admit there is a lot of dead wood sitting around on both sides.

  13. 612

    spews:

    15
    Headless… you know my feeling on Florida in 2000. It should of never been that close… the only reason it was is because the liberal media called Florida early for Al Gore. This disenfranchised the voters in the pan handle of Florida who are overwhelmingly republicans. The reason Al Gore did not make a bigger stink over Florida is because he knew fraud would be uncovered in the democratic counties. Al Gore, like most politicians arent stupid… they know that in any given election there is democratic voter fraud . Hell it been going on for years and took on an art form in Chicago back the early 60,s. Voter fraud is what got Kennedy elected. Headless I can point you to some good literature on the subject.. that is if you want to know the truth. What you are spewing in propaganda with half truth and lies.

  14. 613

    spews:

    And another thing. I personally believe that there is very little if any voter fraud coming from the republicans. The “win at all costs” nature is not in the republican gene. Of course that can change in 2008 especially in this state. As this last court decison proved there is no way to prove voter fraud so why not.

  15. 614

    K spews:

    “Win at any costs is not Republican” Are you kidding?! Did you watch what Bush did to McCain in South Carolina?

  16. 615

    headless lucy spews:

    Don’t forget “Landslide Lyndon.” Those Texas politicians know a thing or two.

  17. 616

    Thomas Trainwinder spews:

    RUFUS: What about butterfly ballots? All those little old Jewish ladies voting for Buchanan?

    Plenty of sand in Florida to keep your head buried in!

  18. 618

    spews:

    RUFUS: What about butterfly ballots? All those little old Jewish ladies voting for Buchanan?

    TT– Are you talking about the endless parade of victims in the 2000 elections that the democrats rented to create outrage of a conspiracy in democratic Dade county? Was Buchanon even on the ballot in 2000? You know if it wasnt for Nader you donks would have ended up winning in 2000. Bush 41 would have easily won in 1992 if not for Perot. Oh well we got burnt by Perot and you guy got burnt by Nader. I guess we’re even. Of course I think 1996 would have been very interesting if Perot was not on the ballot. It would have been razor close… with Clinton winning by a nose. It would have been exciting… Damn you Perot!!!

Radio Goldy

If you think you can listen to my voice without losing your dinner, tune in tonight to the Brian Suits Show on 570-KVI, at 7PM. Brian and I will be discussing blogging, and possibly the recent McCarthyite effort to defame me.

His producer assures me that Brian is big fan of HA. Who’d of thunk?

UPDATE: I’ve been bumped to 7:13PM

UPDATE, UPDATE:
Well, that was fun. Sort of. I hope next time Brian has me on, we get to have more time debating politics, instead of just agreeing on the inviolability of the First Amendment.

Comments

  1. 623

    Richard Pope spews:

    I am glad you got bumped to 7:13 p.m. That way I didn’t miss too much of you. :) Just got in. Sounds pretty nice so far from what I heard.

    As for those anonymous allegations about you, people ought to be able to sue about these things. If someone says something terrible about you to the government (such as the police), then they shouldn’t be allowed to hide behind anonymity.

  2. 624

    danw (awoken from vegetative state) spews:

    Liberal POS…Nice radio talk show host. There’s a guy who likes two sides of a debate

  3. 627

    spews:

    Josef @ 2

    “but I could sure use some traffic too.”

    That’s why you are advertising your blog on Goldy’s website. You’re pitiful, Josef. Absolutely pitiful.

  4. 628

    spews:

    I believe very stridently that whoever did this:

    a) Is NOT Marummy or from her people – she even ordered me not to launch my “nuke” and release Kristin Brost’s phone # in retaliation for her attacks on Dino Rossi & family having security. I, of course, serve at her pleasure being her dutiful soldier.

    b) Is a sicko.

    c) Should be evaluated by Jim McDermott, Ph.D.

    d) Should also go to jail and perform community service.

  5. 629

    jpgee spews:

    Surprisingly decent right wing commentator. IMHO from the first time listening to him chatting with Goldy

  6. 631

    Larry Osterman spews:

    Brian’s cool. I liked him when he was the token conservative at KIRO, I like him at KVI. I don’t agree with his politics, but that’s not relevant.

    He’s always willing to be decent and let the other side have their say.

  7. 633

    jppatches spews:

    Dearest Josef, your blog loses all its credibility when you ‘delete’ your own comments as you did yesterday. What are you doing? The RebugHipFlop?

  8. 634

    Richard Pope spews:

    Josef @ 8

    Jim McDermott is a psychiatrist, not a psychologist. So he is an M.D., not a Ph.D.

  9. 637

    spews:

    Comment by jppatches— 5/3/05 @ 8:18 pm

    I reserve the right to delete comments that are beyond the pale. False allegations about me or ones of a sexual or crude nature will be deleted.

    That’s just my policy – and sometimes people, including I, may say something like that as an honest mistake. I just feel obliged to keep my blog from providing more targets to my spoof…

  10. 639

    jppatches spews:

    josef, the comment of mine you deleted was agreeing with you. And asking your troll to get a life. Nothing agains you or your blog. I figured that you need some comments once in a while, If you like, I will avoid your site. No problem on my part.

  11. 640

    jpgee spews:

    off comment line but WTH, Let’s hear it for our Sonics!!!!!! Great comeback……Maybe we agree again Mr. C!

  12. 646

    Stop their CATerwauling, spay/neuter ALL Pet Libs spews:

    I had not read the post Goldy mentioned on the air, but from what I heard it the incident is indeed despicable.

    However,

    The “let’s commiserate how picked on we are” whine fest enjoyed by Goldy and Suits was B O R I N G.

    The one question I have, and please, I am asking in all seriousness, is how do you know this nasty act was perpetrated by a blogger at all? How do you know it wasn’t a jilted lover, an angry/jealous boyfriend, some guy whose car you scraped, a neighbor who hates your dog, or someone that’s carried a grudge from long ago?

    Are you assuming it’s a blogger (much in the way it seems you and Suits assume it would HAVE to be your political opposite) or do you know for a fact it is a blogger?

  13. 647

    Frank spews:

    Nice show.

    And can we put to rest the blanket statement “Democracy can’t be imposed from outside”? It is historically false, as was pointed out in the show. Even “Democracy can’t be imposed from outside in a country that has little [Germany before 1945] or no [Japan before 1945] democratic traditions” is historically false. “Iraq is neither Japan nor Germany”, on the other hand, is a fine statement to debate.