Pro life… pro health?

As the nation remains transfixed on the moral, ethical and legal controversies surrounding the Terri Schiavo case, I’d like to mention three words that are sure to have many of my righty readers cartoonishly blowing steam from their ears: “universal health care.”

Mention of universal health care, single-payer or otherwise, is guaranteed to illicit cries of “socialized medicine,” and all the attendant fear-mongering and name-calling that generally goes with it. I fully expect to be regaled with apocryphal tales of hapless Canadians forced to wait months for an emergency appendectomy, or some other such frightening anecdote. Labels like “socialist” and “communist” will be flung like frisbees, with the comment thread eventually and inevitably devolving into personal attacks on Teddy Kennedy, as if the blame for our nation’s ballooning health care costs and millions of uninsured can be pinned on his actions that fateful night in Chappaquiddick.

Much of the opposition to universal health care stems from an irrational fear of rationing… irrational, not because it won’t lead to rationing — it will — but because rationing is already an integral part of our current health care system (assuming you can call what we have now a “system.”) The difference is, under a health care system that guarantees universal access, rationing will be based on reasoned criteria that prioritizes resources towards where they provide the best return, whereas under our current non-system, the reverse is often true. For example, while millions of the uninsured, many of them children, go without basic preventative health care, more than half of Medicare dollars are spent on patients who die within two months.

Not to mention patients like Terri Schiavo, whose hospice care taxpayers are largely paying for through Medicaid.

I am in no way suggesting that Terri Schiavo should be allowed to die because her life isn’t worth the expense. I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of people who uncompromisingly support an absolute right to life, yet who are just as uncompromising in their refusal to pay for it. Reasonable people may disagree as to whether a blastocyst or a brain-dead woman are living, human beings the same as you or me, but nobody would deny the humanity of a sick or injured child who shows up, uninsured, at a hospital emergency room. We care for the sick, even the indigent, because there is no question that morally it is the right thing to do. The costs of their unpaid medical bills are ultimately absorbed by the rest of us.

And yet millions of uninsured Americans are denied routine medical care, and face financial ruin should a major illness strike… circumstances that are not only cruel, but create gross, economic inefficiencies throughout our health care system, raising the costs for all.

And so I ask those who support keeping Terri Schiavo’s body alive at any expense: should taxpayer money be used to pay for her care? And if so, why shouldn’t it also be used to pay for a mammogram for the gal flipping your burger at McDonalds, or a dental exam for a farm laborer’s child? How are we respecting the “sanctity of life” when we lavish taxpayer dollars on the dying, yet ignore the basic health care needs of so many of the living? And if prayer vigils are to be held, why not also hold them for the uninsured who lose their jobs and their homes and their life savings to a family illness?

Yes, universal health care will result in rationing to some degree, but we are already rationing now… and not just our tax money and medical resources, but also our compassion and our prayers. Isn’t it time for the most vocal proponents of life, to put their money where their mouth is?

Comments

  1. 1

    Chuck spews:

    Something to ponder, Terri’s “husband” is left in charge of her life. You libs seem to think that is great. Ponder this, he has another “wife” and kids with her. Lets call marrige a contract to do the “best” for the other party. If Lee Iaccoca were in charge of the Chrysler Corp. and was also accepted of the Chairman of General Motors without a merging taking place…he would most likely be prosecuted and serve time. Lets see that Terri’s “husband” does as well. It is called a conflict of interest….by the way, in Florida one can divorce an incapacitated spouse….what is that? wouldnt look good to divorce her? No killing her looks much better….doesnt it?

  2. 2

    Chuck spews:

    Yes, universal health care will result in rationing to some degree, but we are already rationing now… and not just our tax money and medical resources, but also our compassion and our prayers. Isn’t it time for the most vocal proponents of life, to put their money where their mouth is?>>>

    Go to England where heart bypass surgery is in 1-2 year back order then get back with me (I understand Canada has the same fine system)

  3. 3

    Chuck spews:

    Why not just put Terri in a coffin, and just start heaping dirt on it. She won’t be able to hear the lid close, or the dirt fall on top of it, right? She won’t know what’s happening, right? That’s what she wanted, right?

  4. 4

    jpgee spews:

    chuckie boy @ 2 by all means go to the UK and wait for your bypass, or here, if you do not have an insurance plan…..no need to wait, just die. Terri has been in her personal ‘coffin’ for 15 years with no mathematical chance of ever recovering. Seems like you are in your ‘coffin’ atleast since you started posting here. Good luck with the nails

  5. 5

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy–
    A “little” rationing with Universal Health Care? A little?
    You are always the idealist Goldy. Never practical. Truly a Utopian Marxist of the nth degree.
    In Canada, you can get immediate attention for a slight cough.
    I didn’t work my ass of for over 30 years to participate in a watered down rationing system that others who made poor financial choices and priorities have created.

  6. 6

    Rush spews:

    even some of us republicans recognize health care is not working well (emergency rooms treating the uninsured, not just emergencies) and that the future looks even more costly. the poor in the U.S. have far less longevity than in other developed countries.

    in the countries that have socialized medicine, there are often “secondary” private plans/doctors as well for those that can afford them. also, the government pays for socialized medicine, not business. Goldy, you would find some (many?) businesspersons that would be more receptive than you might think if the federal government paid for health care. U.S. businesses are at a huge disadvantage in competing with foreign firms that have no direct health care costs.

    how (who) would you pay for national health care?

  7. 7

    Diggindude spews:

    National health care , For the most part , is already being funded. Anyone that goes into an emergency room, is paid for.
    We are spending hundreds of millions, on illegal aliens also.
    I believe most states, are also subsidizing plans for low income families.
    What is needed, as much as a guaeranteed minimum plan, is some regulation.
    I know, from my own insurance plan, we have a maximum benefit amount, as opposed to percentage.
    Many providers, have adopted these benefit amounts, to their charges, which results in a 100% coverage.
    Still many, are charging double or more, for these same services.
    Many of these companies that will not get their service fees in line, also charge for services, in such a way, to use benefits from procedures, that weren;t even performed, as a means of increasing their benefit payout.

  8. 8

    swatter spews:

    Two comments:

    If starving is so pleasant and beautiful (husbands mouthpiece-Felos), why is she been given morphine?

    Is there any chance we can get a real autopsy? Or will the scumbag get away with murder by having the body cremated?

  9. 10

    swatter spews:

    Okay, I’ll bite. Who’s the Texas Taco and why?

    As far as I know, I am the only one that wants an autopsy based on anecdotal information of previous injuries. It is not too late to charge the scumbag, the faithful husband, with murder.

    Why morphine if this type of death is so peaceful?

  10. 11

    Mark spews:

    Goldy: “under a health care system that guarantees universal access, rationing will be based on reasoned criteria that prioritizes resources towards where they provide the best return”

    Do you realize that to honestly do the above, you’d have to slash AIDS research by 90%? (based on dollars spent per dying person)

    It isn’t just a matter of lawsuits, inefficient treatment systems, rich people with insurance, etc. It also comes down to POLITICS and PR. Why else would breast cancer research receive TWICE the funding of prostate cancer research? Both have comparable incidence rates and mortality rates, but look at the difference in “public profile” for the diseases.

  11. 12

    Chee spews:

    82 % support the right to die in the case that has been before the public since Jeb Bush took over and chose to play God; later joined by Brother George. Not a full 100 percent yet but closing in on the 17% still hanging on. Those Holier-than-thou stragglers can hash and rehash the right to die when they all get to heaven. I hope Terri and Michael will be waiting and watching as they stand before the Judgement seat to have their own life pass in review . I was taught that the proud, pious and hypocrites will scorned by God and Bible referance says, “it is harder for a rich man to get to heaven than a camel going through the eye of a needle.” Those peacocks and peahens that think they will be seated at the right hand of the Father might be pleasantly surprised to find they will not. God looks upon one’s heart not upon one’s flesh. More important people worry about getting right with God while here on this Planet if they really believe in everlasting life. instead of worrying over Terry’s life and filling out your own death wish form while here on this Planet. The right-wing extremists treat outsiders as if they are all going to hell in a hand-basket. Don’t think so!
    (Courtesy post for right-wing extremists.)

  12. 13

    Chee spews:

    jpgee@9. The Texas Taco Wagon knows no holidays, just like the Grim Reaper. Don’t think I will ever vacation in Florida again. If I have a near fatal accident there and Jeb will be first responder before 911 gets called.

  13. 14

    Diggindude spews:

    If you want a chuckle, listen to loudmouth limbaugh, attempting to explain why its ok for delay, to disconnect his dad, and its not hypocritical.
    The more I think about this, the more I come towards the conclusion, today’s republican party, is the “church of England”,
    And the democrats, are the founding fathers.

  14. 15

    Dubyasux spews:

    Chuck @ 1

    This is Michael’s decision? Whatever happened to the courts? Did you forget there are courts involved in the decision making?

  15. 16

    chew2 spews:

    Chuck,

    The decision to remove Terry’s feeding tube was made by the judge abter a trial, not by her husband as guardian. Even if her husband was no longer her guardian, the feeding tube would have to be removed because it was Terry’s wish as determined by the judge after hearing all the evidence presented by her parents.

    “The trial court’s decision does not give Mrs. Schiavo’s legal guardian the
    option of leaving the life-prolonging procedures in place. No matter who her guardian
    is, the guardian is required to obey the court order because the court, and not the
    guardian, has determined the decision that Mrs. Schiavo herself would make.”
    *****************************

    “Both the Supreme Court of Florida and this court have concluded that the
    decision to “terminate artificial life supports is a decision that normally should be made
    in the patient-doctor-family relationship.” Bludworth, 452 So. 2d at 926; see also
    Browning, 543 So. 2d 258 (Fla. 2d DCA 1989), approved, 568 So. 2d 4 (Fla. 1990). We
    have, however, emphasized that the courts remain open to make these decisions under
    the Florida Constitution when family members cannot agree or when a guardian
    believes that it would be more appropriate for a neutral judge to make the decision.
    See, e.g., Bludworth, 452 So. 2d at 926-27; Browning, 543 So. 2d at 269. As we
    explained in Schiavo I, this is the approach that Mr. Schiavo, in his capacity as legal
    guardian of his wife, selected in light of the bitter conflict within this family.”

    Quoted from

    Florida Court of Appeal Decision
    http://www.2dca.org/opinion/Ma.....05-968.pdf

  16. 17

    Chee spews:

    swatter@10. You got to quite watching the MURDER SHE WROTE TV series. Crying Murder is a very serious accusation, legally libelous and slanderous. As for Murder existing, there has been entered in the record that supports this assumption except a lot of paranoid thinking coupled with a vivid imagination. The law does not ignore what is thought to be Murder.

  17. 20

    Chee spews:

    diggindude@14. I heard all their explain-away. They want us to make sense out of their nonsense thinking we are all brain-dead. Soon they will be down to pulling laxatives off the market, cause noone has the right to take a shit without their say so.

  18. 21

    proud leftist spews:

    The only “life” which the rightwingers respect is that which is found in the womb or in a persistent vegetative state. Anyone actually and breathing has value only to the extent he or she donates generously to the GOP.

  19. 23

    Eric L spews:

    What I don’t understand is how can we spend by far the most on health care of any nation on Earth and be 24th in terms of life expectancy. I mean, we do manage to live 2 months longer than the Cubans, so all out communism is clearly not the way to go, but the rest of the industrialized world has universal insurance programs that tend to be very popular with the public and they tend to live longer than we do without spending $6000/person/year on health care. Explain to me just why we don’t want to do this.

    Oh, and please no theoretical explanations on why a “capitalist” system would have to be better than a “socialist” system, and no anecdotes on wait times, though if you have actual statistics on overall wait times in ours and some other system that could be something. We have objectively the most expensive system in the world, we ought to have objectively the best system in the world. I have given one objective measure of health care by which we are not, give me objective measures by which we are.

    (I should probably add that I was just kidding when I brought up Cuba/communism, there are lots of reasons besides health care for which I don’t want that.)

  20. 24

    Chuck spews:

    proud leftist@21
    Not quite right, you see the libs are the give me now bunch, SS is a fine example of that, you guys want to ride the system into the ground. We want to fix it for future generations to come…without a bandaid on the artery.

  21. 25

    spews:

    chuck @ 1
    Amazing how you disregard the fact that he IS legally married to Terri, and push the non-fact that he’s married in any way to his current girlfriend. There is no such thing as common law marriage in FL.

    I do think it’s great that he’s considered the closest person to her. That’s almost literally been the entire POINT of marriage in history–to transfer control of the woman from the father to the husband. Now, in the intervening centuries we have expanded that to give the wife equal standing, so that in the same sense she gains control over the husband from HIS parents–but the premise continues: spouses are the next of kin, not parents or children. In that sense, is there any reason NOT to give him the primary power of attorney?

    Regarding universal health care: two relatively simple steps could take care of major chunks of our health care problems:

    1) Invest children as consumers of health care, rather than byproducts of their parents. If the parents will not or cannot secure health care for themselves, that does not prevent their children from receiving automatic basic coverage under Medicare.

    2) Kerry’s plan for spreading risk and pushing broader coverage using catastrophic care was nothing short of brilliant, IMO. If the government agrees to cover the costs of catastrophic care (eg, more than $50,000), which is a major proportion of all health care dollars, in return businesses would agree to extend coverage to all of their workers–small business included. With the risk of being bankrupted by one or two seriously ill employees removed, business could afford to offer coverage–and with more workers covered, the costs originally borne by government for non-covered workers would be eliminated.

  22. 26

    Sirkulat spews:

    !! Coming to a Walmurt near you !!
    ! Chi-chi-chi S-CHIA-VO PET !

    Get your own Terry S-chia-vo Pet and grow her a new brain !!

    Your Terry S-chia-vo Pet is a lifelike clay bust of our beloved, long-departed Terry in Madonna pose, with her skullcap removed near the hairline, and a shriveled yucky old brain inside all ready for the special Chia treatment.

    Just apply the special Chia ointment and Chia seeds, add water, and in a few days you’ll see Terry growing a new brain !!

    The Terry S-Chia-vo Pet comes mounted on a plaque with an internal voice box that happily greets you every day with: “Mommy, help me” – “I need a new brain” – Rock n’ Roll, Baby” and a little ditty, We’ll meet again, don’t know where, don’t know when. But I know we’ll meet again some sunny day”

    Don’t delay! Get your Terry S-chia-vo Pet TODAY at neighborhood Walmurt Superstores: Where cheap products ALWAYS cost cheaper !!

  23. 27

    spews:

    chuck @ 22
    You are 100% wrong. The COURT made the decision, based on testimony from the husband and four others (including Terri’s mother), as wel l as reports from the Guardian ad litem(s).* Michael made no decisions for his wife; he has only testified to her desires–which, as spouse, he is best qualified to offer.

    *If you’ve seen any of the interviews given by GAL Tim Wolfson, I don’t know how anyone can come away from that viewing without believing that justice is being done.

  24. 28

    swatter spews:

    Sheesh, Chee, I am behind the times. I don’t know who Texas Taco is or why and what is “Murder She Wrote”?

    All I know from the last couple of years is that the husband is being made out to not be very “loving”. There seems to be enough witnesses to his abuse. Why should he be a legal guardian?

    You guys and gals complain about the foster care and social system, but at the same time, if one caregiver kills someone you jump up and down and demand why didn’t the State get rid of the guardians earlier. Isn’t this the same? At the very least, this husband (and I use the term loosely) should have been removed as guardian. If anyone else besides the Hemlock Society was running this drama, perhaps I, too, would agree with pulling the plug.

    Just got done talking with my “sanity” checker- an attorney who hadn’t followed the case, but is one of those with good common sense. He was shocked to learn that the husband has been everything but lovely. Rather than say he agreed with me, he also is of the opinion, there is more to this than meets the eye.

    So, Tom Harkin and Lanny Davis are both right wing religious whackos now? Come on, this is bipartisan.

  25. 29

    spews:

    swatter–what evidence do you have of abuse? There is none, to my knowledge. The GAL reports Michael’s care to have been extraordinary: not one bedsore in 15 years, a restraining order against Michael for being TOO insistent on her proper care, and the fact that in trial testimony, he was noted as a more regular visitor to Terri than the family.

    To repeat: there is no factual evidence that exists to support the case of Michael as abusive.

  26. 31

    Chee spews:

    swatter@27. ‘Made out to be” in your post is the tell all phrase that is creating the the most problems. Gossip and rumor-mongering. The courts would take that a step further, legally calling it what is is, character assasination. If Michael decides to sue those who have assassinated him for libel and slander there is not much doubt that he could prevail. Micheal is not a unprotected species like elected officiala are and is protected under the law of libel and slander against those who rail against his character. Like him or not, slander and libel is what is going on.

  27. 32

    Doug spews:

    To get back more on topic (and away from the Schiavo case)…

    I am reminded of the Health Care debate of the early ’90s where the Republican line was “America has the best health care system in the world. Don’t mess with it.” And what I would always scream at the TV was, “Sure it’s the best, if you’re rich and have health insurance.” You can’t fault the Rs for saying this; they’re just representing their constituency: rich people for whom the system works great. To Hell with everyone else.

    Mr. Cynical’s comments @5 reflect this same sort of mindset. “I’ve got mine, you go get yours and leave me alone.” Or to put it more charitably in (close to) Cynical’s own words, “I worked hard and made the right choices to get this money (or standard of health care, or whatever). It’s not right or fair for liberals to take this from me and give it to people who don’t work as hard as me.” Who can argue with that? I often see the debate framed as, “Why should society punish those who work hard while helping those who don’t work hard?”

    Obviously I disagree with Cynical and his ilk (or I wouldn’t be writing this). I think the fundamental disconnect is that Cynical truly believes that he got what he got simply by working hard and the reason poor people don’t have what he’s got is because they’re too lazy to work for it. But I don’t buy it. Is a CEO making $300k a year really working 10 times harder than a teacher making $30k a year? You might argue that he’s working somewhat harder, what with the long hours and all, but 10 times harder? I think not. I’m not trying to make the Marxist argument that we should pay everyone the same. Rather that we should recognize that these two people’s economic situation has as much or more to do with the vagaries of the capitalist system (and what kind of work it values) than with how hard they work.

    My whole point is that Cynical has no moral high ground in suggesting that he deserves his privileged position (and the excellent health care that goes with it) and those slacker poor people do not. In most cases they’re working just as hard as you. Bill Gates Sr. has been going around making this same point with regard to the Estate Tax debate. Basically that you didn’t really earn that whole pile of cash yourself, society had a lot to do with it, and if society takes some of it back when you die, that’s only fair.

  28. 33

    Mr. X spews:

    Yo Rethugs-

    Harry and Louise style insurance/pharmaceutical industry lies notwithstanding – I defy you to find anyone from Europe and/or Canada who would trade their health care system for ours.

    Seriously – if you talk to a typical “man in the street” in other industrialized countries, one of the first things they’ll say about the U.S. is how insane our health care system is. And yes, 45 million uninsured people is rationing.

    Hope all you social Darwinian’s (nice to know you believe in something Darwin did!) enjoy the new bankruptcy laws when a family member’s illness renders your sorry capitalism-as-theocracy asses destitute…

  29. 34

    Chee spews:

    swatter@28. Your unnamed legal counsel is right, there is more than meets the eye. More than murder. More than not loving. More than gossip. More than rumors. More than those that want to dwell on murder, gossip and rumers can see with their blinders on. A husband who demands care of his wife be of the uttmost is UNLOVIMG? After Money? A murderous criminal? Where is the solid evidence called proof? How about proving beyond a reasonable doubt what you want to believe.

  30. 35

    swatter spews:

    And who is Texas Taco?

    And you TJ, there are affadavits and medical records showing the potential for abuse. So, to your point, I don’t know what you would require as “proof”? Video tape? Were you one of those who thought OJ was innocent? There is enough evidence out there to raise questions.

    P.S. I am not one of those who really trusts in our government- judicial or legislative, so you can take my opinions with a grain of salt. But if Judge Bridges rules for Rossi, what will your opinion of the judicial branch be? Hmmmm!!

    But why shouldn’t there be a thorough autopsy? Someone needs to give me a good answer or our discussion is done. There has to be a good reason to not have one. Yeah, I know, she died a gruesome death by starving and dehydration, but some of the other injuries could be investigated for the first time.

  31. 36

    Chee spews:

    X@33. Darwinians? I know where that is across the border from Lithuaniania. Has your sorry-ass heard of Lithium. Maybe your health care provider has.

  32. 37

    spews:

    swatter @ 35
    “showing the potential for abuse?” What the hell is that? Does the ability to be in the same room privately with her constitute the potential for abuse? I’d say it does.

    I don’t know what I would require as proof either, since I didn’t ask for it. I asked for evidence. What affadavits? From whom? What medical evidence? Presented by whom? Please point me to these documents as presented either in trial, or in appeals done recently.

    If Bridges rules for Rossi, and appeals courts uphold that determination, I’ll likely continue to believe it was an incorrect decision–but you can bet I’ll support the process and live with it. Courts are for resolving disputes, and if they are done in an open and reasoned manner, there is NO premise for questioning the integrity of their decisions.

    Why shouldn’t there be a thorough autopsy? Why should there? What evidence is there that points to something beyond natural causes?

  33. 39

    reggie spews:

    Universal health care in this country is a dead issue.

    Only way it works is if you can make all of the insurance companies non-profit. And that will happen when pigs learn how to fly.

    In our own backyard we have executives at King County Blue Cross making over a million a year. wanna guess why? (it’s got nothing to do with how many people they insure)

    and last but not least to Sirkulat@26…..that is the most repulsive post I have ever seen on this website. Terri Schiavo should be prayed for, not made fun of. May she be with her God soon.

  34. 40

    Chee spews:

    swatter@35. Bet you got some fat juicy gossip about Rossi up your sleeve that your not sharing with the libs. Come cough up. You seem to really be up on who abuses who, you must have somw dirt on Rossi. Show and tell time.

  35. 41

    Goldy spews:

    Doug… I think what a lot of people also miss here is the utilitarian argument. Our current health care “system” is simply inefficient in the way it distributes resources, and the free market folks refuse to acknowledge that market forces simply don’t operate efficiently in economic spheres that transcend market economics.

    We do not refuse care to sick, and few would argue that we should. But it would be so much less expensive if we just offered these people basic preventative health care in the first place.

    The need for employers to provide, and employees to receive health coverage further distorts our economy. Workers resist market forces that might otherwise incentivize them to switch jobs or industries or locations, out of the need to maintain health care benefits. And one of the largest factors impacting the competitiveness of American companies in the world market, is our high cost of providing health care coverage for employees.

    Basic health care, like education, is a public investment that pays off many times over, but neither fits neatly into the pure, free market ideology of some right wingers. They therefore refuse to accept what every other industrialized democracy has accepted, that universal health care is not just a basic human right… but an economic necessity.

  36. 42

    Chuck spews:

    torridjoe@27
    No, her husband had already made the decision…the court simply backed his legal right to do so. If the decision to kill her hadnt been already made, the court wouldnt have been involved. (believe it or not courts do not act unless a situation is brought before them)

  37. 43

    prr spews:

    I’d would just like to pint out that every single person in this board has in common.

    You are all unqualified to comment on both Terry Schiavo and Healthcare…..

    Bottom line, your opinion on both matters amounts to a bucket of warm spit, so shut the hell up already.

    The real querstion is, what are you doing for your own family and have you made out your own living will after this fiasco in Fla?

  38. 44

    Chee spews:

    reggie@39. I agree reggie, goes far beyond repulsive. The post how far people will go to make mockery out of Terri Shiavo. The posted contents was very warped, sick. twisted and deranged.

  39. 45

    spews:

    chuck @ 42
    Michael made no decisions; he related Terri’s decision. The relation of that decision was disputed by Terri’s parents. The court has not backed “his decision;” they have evaluated the evidence of HER decision, and found it clear and convincing that she wanted to die.

  40. 47

    Chuck spews:

    Goldy@41

    You have very nice sweet ideas, consider this, a productive company that sets up shop here is competing many times with lets say Korean factories, exept for a few added bonuses. The american comany gets to pay a staggering minimum wage (by comparison), gets the pleasure of dealing with the EPA, OSHA, L&I. As well as higher taxes than most countries gouge their companies for. And as an added bonus you want to tie them to health insurance and tell them to go abroad and compete. The Boeing Company used to own the DeHavilland (Canadian) company and couldnt dump it fast enough because they were getting financially choked.

  41. 49

    Diggindude spews:

    chuck@ planet earth
    wrong, wrong, wrong.
    the court decided, with all the testimony, even some from her own mother, that terri did not want to live as a veg.
    You can say it all you like, but you are still wrong, and everyone else here, already knows that.

  42. 50

    prr spews:

    Chee,

    Sorry if I sound to be a bit of a dick, but this board just kills me.

    I check in from time to time and it always appears to be the 5 or 6 same Jackasses spouting off and everyday.

    For God’s sake, You bitch about everything under the sun.

    How about this for a Solution:

    Get off your fat asses, get out from behind the computer and go live your own lives instead of constantly nit picking on everybody elses problems.

    Contributing to Goldies political masturbation is just pathetic

  43. 51

    chew2 spews:

    Chuck @ 22

    Chuck you appear to be a retard who can’t read, or perhaps you simply ignore the facts when they are presented to you. Micahel didn’t make the decision, he applied to a judge to make it for him.

    To repeat the Florida Court of Appeal stated:

    “The trial court’s decision does not give Mrs. Schiavo’s legal guardian the
    option of leaving the life-prolonging procedures in place. No matter who her guardian
    is, the guardian is required to obey the court order BECAUSE THE COURT, AND NOT THE GUARDIAN, HAS DETERMINED THE DECISION THAT MRS. SCHIAVO HERSELF WOULD MAKE.”

    Under Florida Law Michael had two options: 1) he could make the decision himself (and presumably the Schindler’s would challenge it by court action), or 2) he could apply to the court to make the decision. He chose the second optioni, and the judge determined what Terry’s condition was and what her wishes would have been given that condition. The judge heard evidence presented by both the Schindler’s, Michael and others. He determined that Terry would want the feeding tubes removed. In fact, he held a second trial at which the Schindler’s presented additional evidence about Terry’s condition and wishes. His many decisions have been upheld on multiple appeals.

  44. 52

    Frank spews:

    One aspect of universal health care that doesn’t seem to me to get enough attention is that it would assumedly remove the profit motive from the system. With the government setting payouts and priorities – that is, with the government doing the rationing – money will no longer be a driving force in healthcare delivery. Some may say “great” to that, but I worry about it.

    Why? Because money is what drives inventiveness in this country, and indeed in the world. Companies that supply goods to the health care providers, whether those goods be drugs, or biotech implants, or whatever, compete in an open martketplace for money. Investors in the stock martket put their money where they expect to have the best returns. Without the large amounts of money being poured into cutting edge healthcare in the USA, these companies – the Amgens of the world – will not be able to make the profits needed to attract investment. They’ll become more like regulated industries, with a low, safe return and a low capacity to invent.

    It is no coincidence that the USA spends the most on healthcare and has the newest and best healthcare technology. Money drives inventiveness. The rest of the world gets to cherry-pick the products invented here while maintaining their universal, low payout care systems. What happens when we go the same route? Where do the new breakthroughs come from?

  45. 53

    Diggindude spews:

    So, chuck, what you want is to make sure a company profits, but ignore a nations wellness.This seems contrary to keeping a lump of tissue alive at all costs.
    How do you explain this anomaly?
    Corporations will always choose to cut their overhead, by any means.
    Even if it means destroying an economy.
    So what IS corporates responsibility in the world?
    Is it profit at any cost?
    The same way you view keeping the lump of tissue alive at any cost.
    I know that sounds very bad, but you have to talk like that to a person that is , what I would consider, twisting the facts to fit an agenda.

  46. 54

    Diggindude spews:

    So, chuck, what you want is to make sure a company profits, but ignore a nations wellness. This seems contrary to keeping a lump of tissue alive at all costs.
    How do you explain this anomaly?
    Corporations will always choose to cut their overhead, by any means.
    Even if it means destroying an economy.
    So what IS corporates responsibility in the world?
    Is it profit at any cost?
    The same way you view keeping the lump of tissue alive at any cost.
    I know that sounds very bad, but you have to talk like that to a person that is , what I would consider, twisting the facts to fit an agenda.

  47. 55

    Diggindude spews:

    prr @ stfu
    “”How about this for a Solution:

    Get off your fat asses, get out from behind the computer and go live your own lives instead of constantly nit picking on everybody elses problems.””

    Look in the mirror and say that dumbass.
    If you dont like it here, go back to SHAR(litan)’s blog, where everyone is required to have the same opinion, or they get banned.

  48. 56

    Mark spews:

    Goldy @ 41

    I see you mention the utilitarian argument again, but failed to address my point @ 11.

    Are you truly in favor of maximizing “saved lives per dollar spent?”

    And how do you quantify the quality of said “saved” life? Is it better to spend a million dollars to save one fully-functional person or a dozen people barely able to survive without machines?

    How do you account for ailments that are the result of self-destructive behaviors? Should we fund pediatric AIDS research far more than research for adult AIDS because it was more likely the result of drug use or unsafe sex?

    What about mental health? Where do you prioritize treatment for Post-Election Selection Trauma? [yes, that is a serious question since "serious" therapists are treating people for it]

  49. 57

    Chee spews:

    prr@50. Never crossed mind that your were a “dick” till you brought it up. This statement of yours makes me question if you are one. “Get off your fat asses, get out from behind the computer and go live your own lives instead of constantly nit picking on everybody elses problems.
    Contributing to Goldies political masturbation is just pathetic.” Comment by prr— 3/28/05 @ 12:27 pm.
    What ya doing here pal? Your actually including your self by saying, contributing, masterbating and saying it is pathetic. If your not behind the computor, who is. Whether your ass is fat or not I can not see fom here but I know mine is not. I will have to assume you have X-ray vision and have some gauge your experimenting with that allows you to see whose ass is fat here and whose isn’t. Can’t get any better than that.

  50. 58

    spews:

    Mark @ 56
    Look at Oregon’s highly detailed system of rationing. To be sure it is fraught with difficult choices, but that’s often the nature of making decisions. Oregon took all types of procedures and conditions, and painstakingly put them in order of priority, based on a cost/benefit analysis. Were the ones at the bottom of the list (and thus not publicly paid for) nonetheless representative of many sad stories about people in poor medical health? You bet. But many, many more sad stories were averted by covering the rest.

  51. 59

    Goldy spews:

    Mark @56,

    It is you who have failed to answer my questions. Should taxpayer dollars be used to keep Terri Schiavo’s body alive? And if so, how do we make the moral or economic argument against paying for basic preventative health care for all Americans?

  52. 60

    Mark spews:

    TJ @ 58

    Do you have a link to Oregon’s priority list?

    Do you really think that they could de-prioritize AIDS research in this country simply based on the fact that the “return on investment” isn’t there? It would be a PR nightmare.

    All you need in this country is for Oprah to give birth to a two-toed baby and funding for that cause would skyrocket — undoubtedly at the expense of other ailments.

  53. 61

    Mark spews:

    Goldy @ 59

    “Should taxpayer dollars be used to keep Terri Schiavo’s body alive?”

    This is a tough question because I get the impression that not all reasonable therapies were tried with her. But that could just be PR. I haven’t followed the story that closely. If her parents are willing to pay, they should be able to. If the resources would otherwise go unused, they should use them on her. Other than that, I’m less inclined for the state to keep paying.

    “And if so, how do we make the moral or economic argument against paying for basic preventative health care for all Americans?”

    Sneaky! You added a word: preventative. I have less of an issue with that since it would seem to require that the patient take some proactive care of themselves (as evidenced by their seeking said preventative care). You’re not talking about [cue booming voice] Universal… Health… Care (aka socialized medicine).

    BTW, in your system, what incentive does a doctor have to put in the serious amount of their life into training?

    And how do you deal with the vocal minority of people who think their cause should take priority for whatever reason?

  54. 62

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    * sigh *

    prr@50:

    I check in from time to time and it always appears to be the 5 or 6 same Jackasses spouting off and everyday.

    Interesting, I notice the same thing, only it seems to be 5 or 6 people with what I would consider to be not only very conservative views, but disagreeable to the point of being contrary for contrary’s sake.

    L: “It’s a lovely day here and the sky is blue”

    C: “What do you mean it’s blue! It’s gray. You libs are all the same with your half-truths and inattention to reality. What else could we expect?”

    Anyhow, rather than listening to the same sound bites over and over, I’d like to know if any of our more conservative posters could tell us about their very lucky lives so far?

    Has anyone in your family ever had a finanically-debilitating illness that dragged on for a long time? If not, good for you!

    If so, did their insurance cover everything? If so, even better. Fortune smiles!

    If you or a loved-one had to raid the piggy bank, how did it hold out? If you work hard, live frugally, and were fortunate enough to have been struck by misfortune towards the end of your life when your piggy bank is fully (or mostly-fully) stuffed, and not during your twenties or thirties when you’re still doing the bank-stuffing, my goodness, how lucky you have been!

    [p.s., in case anyone detects any sarcasm there, make sure you understand where it's coming from. This particular lefty believes very strongly in stuffing your bank account as much as you can. I can wish for a more just and equitable world, but I live in this one, and need to budget accordingly. I could go for two years with no job at this point and not run the piggy bank dry. Stuffing it to deal with any possible contingency will take a few more years, and I AM very damn fortunate in almost all respects].

    So share your stories guys. Let us know how you’ve made your fortunes, are protected against all ill that might befall you singlehandedly, and above all, let us know how very, very lucky you are!

  55. 65

    Chee spews:

    GOLDY. My own reasoning regarding health are is based on the known principle, “prevention is worth a pound of cure.” Our country’s first duty is seeing to and providing for health care on a prevention level early on. That is not affortable for many who only seek care after stricken. Chinese philosophy has held te theory of pay the doctor to keep you well, if he fails, don’t pay. Facing the hard gut-wrenching thought of life being a survival of the fittest is one of those doesn’t set wells. Sad to say, those who can’t afford health care and are on state aid programs are much better off than the class who can not afford it and can not qualify for aid programs. How do we equalize this system and where do we make the cuts and adds? If I pointedly offered up my answer, extremists would rally outside my house carrying pro-life signs and I would be crucified by midnight, crosses scorched into my lawn or my house set ablaze. Logical solutions sometimes strike at the heart of others as cold. I think we put far too much money into sustaining prisons and sustaining the weak than we do in maintaining the upstanding, law abiding, healthy and strong.

  56. 67

    Eric L spews:

    Frank @ 52

    You are under the illusion that innovation in the medical field in this country has been purely or primarily free market driven. Most new drugs are invented at our universities, not at our drug companies. If you restrict new to meaning “really new” and not including derivatives of drugs that already exist, change “most” to “the overwhelming majority.” This research is typically in large part taxpayer funded. Our drug companies get ridiculous 17% profit margins and spend hardly anything on R&D, much less than they spend on advertising. Our health care industry is hardly an example of the free market working as it should. Where will the new breakthroughs come from under a universal health care system? The same places they do now.

  57. 69

    Diggindude spews:

    Chee @ 65
    You know, chee, You look at what the right is doing with this issue. They are all over saving one pvs patient, and will go to any extreme, to cut health care, for those who cant afford it. Are we to follow the republicans lead here on this issue?
    Should we treat terminal patients, the same way they treat the terminally underpriveledged?
    I think not.
    How can they be so hypocritical?

  58. 70

    spews:

    Eric @ 67
    It’s also important to note that free market R&D may lead to breakthroughs in medical science, but they are not necessarily directed at the largest, neediest groups. In a moral/ethical framework, which deserves more research money: colon cancer, or erectile dysfunction?

  59. 71

    Diggindude spews:

    ERIC L @ 67
    “”Our drug companies get ridiculous 17% profit margins and spend hardly anything on R&D, much less than they spend on advertising. Our health care industry is hardly an example of the free market working as it should. Where will the new breakthroughs come from under a universal health care system? The same places they do now.””

    VERY GOOD POINT
    I brought this point up over at king5, and the few wannabee conservatives,(some of whom rant hysterically here occasionally), almost blew a gasket trying to tell me, drug companies get no public funding, and foot the bill for all their research, suggesting this was the reason for high pharmaceutical prices in the u.s.

  60. 72

    RDC spews:

    Frank @ 52 Good post, but I’m not sure the rest of the world is that far behind in health care innovation. Some research might be in order.

    Goldy…There is something in Stalin’s often quoted remark that one death is a tragedy but a million deaths are a statistic, that applies to US health care. The fact is that most people do have some form of health insurance. Although many millions do not, those millions are only a statistic to most of us. IMO, with a few exceptions like Cynical, it’s not selfishness on the part of those who have insurance that keeps us from extending coverage to all Americans. It’s more that damage to our society that comes from not having universal coverage, while real, is sometimes subtle and often hidden. Few of us get slapped up beside the head with them. Few of us personally know someone whose life was devastated because of a lack of coverage. Out-of-sight; out-of-mind. For this reason I doubt health care reform will come from a push by those who don’t have coverage, or by those of us who have coverage and believe that everyone having it would be good for the country.

    The best hope for reform comes from a group which consists, I would guess, mostly of Republicans–business owners and corporate executives. The employment based system we have came from this same group. During WWII, when labor was scarce and competition for it was keen, and wage controls were in place, businesses used the attraction of health insurance to lure workers. Most of the developed world took a different path, and enacted state run universal health care. This difference in approach puts US businesses at a disadvantage. As this disadvantage grows, US businesses may become more aggressive in its attempts to mitigate the disparity. We already see this happening with business attempting to get workers to pick up a greater share of the cost. There are limits to this. When these limits are reached, I am hopeful that businesses will put pressure on government to do something. Universal coverage may be that something.

    (Marks…if you are out there, the OT is on math & magic.)

  61. 73

    Chee spews:

    jsa on beacon hill@62. “I check in from time to time and it always appears to be the 5 or 6 same Jackasses spouting off and everyday.” Maybe you and PRR @ 50 can sweetly hunker up over lunch and arm wrestle since you don’t like dropping in here even when noone is bending your arm to do so.

  62. 74

    Chee spews:

    diggindude@69. How can they be? Their software has not been upgrading for years, the virus they caught has no cure as yet. The only dance step they can do is the box step. If they step ouside the box, or color outside the lines they will surely go to hell. Hypocrites give lip service to whatever their unable to deliver within.

  63. 75

    swatter spews:

    When TJ talks dirty, it gets my juices flowing.

    It didn’t take long but here is a sample letter to participating physicians supporting an autopsy.

    This is from the Association of Physicians and Surgeons. There is also numerous other medical reports and references. Happy reading.

    “Dear ____________:
    When Terri Schiavo dies, the potential exists that a crime will be covered up by her planned cremation without autopsy. That potential crime is NOT the issue at the center of the present controversy, but the yet unsubstantiated allegation that an assault led to her condition in the first place.

    It has been reported in the press that Michael Schiavo intends to cremate Terri Schiavo immediately upon her death.

    According to the Medical Examiner’s department policy posted at: http://www.co.pinellas.fl.us/f.....ent.htm#CA , the medical examiner must approve or deny all such requests.

    The attending physician in Terri Schiavo’s case has a history of 5 NPDB reported malpractice cases. There is an open quesiton of what led to her original “event”.

    Please disallow the cremation until the medical examiner’s office can perform an appropriate investigation and/or postmortem examination to determine both the immediate cause of death AND the proximate cause of death, including the search for any injuries from the past consistent with a potential crime.

    Despite the currently accepted rationale for her initial �event�, evidence on postmortem examination may reveal that Terri Schiavo was the victim of a crime many years ago.

    Judge Greer has not allowed an MRI or PET Scan. PET scans are of no value post mortem, but MRI may have some limited benefit, in addition to the physical autopsy, particularly for small, old injuries to ligaments and muscles that would be consistent with a trauma that occurred due to a crime (e.g. strangulation or abuse) if one had occurred.

    If there are perpetrators of a crime covering something up, they will not want such an examination done. They will be afraid of justice.

    Please act now to assure no authorization is given for cremation without a proper investigation and autopsy to address these issues.

    Sincerely,

    ___________________________

    XI. CREMATION APPROVAL (Florida Statutes 406.11(1)(c))

    A. All requests for cremation must be approved by the Medical Examiner prior to the actual cremation.

    1. Before authorizing the irretrievable disposal of a body by cremation, the Medical Examiner must be assured that no future question will arise about the cause or circumstances of the death of the individual.

    2. The death, if previously unreported to the Medical Examiner, must first be verified as a non-Medical Examiner case according to Florida Statutes, 406.11.

    B. Approval of a cremation, and accepting the responsibility for irretrievably destroying potential evidence, is a decision based on the quality of the information on the death certificate. The death certificate should be accompanied by a CREMATION APPROVAL FORM filled out by the attending physician to demonstrate that the death was due to natural causes. The cause of death on the death certificate must be sufficient to:

    1. rule out trauma,

    2. identify the immediate cause(s) of death, i.e. septicemia, peritonitis, bronchopneumonia, renal failure, etc., and

    3. identify the underlying or proximate cause of death – the �due to� disease or injury responsible for initiating the lethal sequence of events.

    C. The most common pitfalls this office encounters with causes of death are:

    1. failure to state the underlying cause of death;

    2. scrambling of immediate and underlying causes of death; and

    3. listing extraneous data in the section entitled ‘Other Significant Conditions’. The section ‘Other Significant Conditions’ (Part II) should be used only for those conditions that contribute to death, but are unrelated to the cause(s) listed in Part I.

    D. The CREMATION APPROVAL FORM is often helpful in clarifying the cause of death as well as providing additional medical history that assures that the death was not by violence.

    � Words like subdural, fracture, sepsis, fall, trauma, cardiac arrest, heart failure, hemiplegia, quadriplegia, paraplegia, and shock are mechanism of death and typically do not explain a natural death, and may indicate a traumatic origin. It is necessary to rule out traumatic underlying causes or identify the natural disease processes, which resulted in the cardiac arrest, for example.

    E. The procedure used to obtain and validate the approval of the Medical Examiner for a cremation, dissection (i.e. Anatomical Board) or burial at sea can be done in one of two ways.

    1. The funeral home or direct disposer may bring the completed Burial Transit Permit, CREMATION APPROVAL FORM and the signed death certificate, with the cause of death section legibly completed to this office for approval between the hours of 8:00 am to 4:00 p.m. Monday through Friday; or,

    2. The funeral home or direct disposer may fax to this office (at 727-582-6820, 24 hours a day) the CREMATION APPROVAL FORM and signed death certificate with the cause of death section legibly completed. Approval will be made and the cremation approval document will be faxed back to the requesting funeral home, generally between the hours of 8:00 am to 4:00 pm, seven days a week (excluding holidays). In certain circumstances, the cremation approval information will be provided to the requesting funeral home by return phone call, generally between the hours of 8:00 am to 4:00 p.m. seven days a week (excluding holidays).

    F. Prior to submission of the death certificate to the Office of Vital Statistics, the cremation approval case number must be placed:

    1. on the WHITE copy of the burial transit permit in Section C on the �Signature� line; and

    2. on the death certificate at the bottom right hand corner of the backside.

    (NOTE: use only light pencil because any dark ink will show through on the front and force Vital Statistics to have the funeral home redo the death certificate.

    G. Due to the 11,000+ approvals handled each year the Medical Examiner’s Office limits approval times to 8:00 am to 4:00 p.m. seven days a week (excluding holidays) to permit adequate time for staff investigation of cause of death. Additional phone calls will be made to the requesting funeral home or direct disposer whenever additional death certificate information is required because it fails to adequately explain a non-traumatic (i.e. non-medical examiner) cause of death.

    H. Please note that on the death certificate Box 28 �Case Reported to Medical Examiner? (Yes or No)� does refer to cremation approval in addition to deaths reported for investigation to determine if the death falls under the medical examiner�s jurisdiction. This box must have a �Yes� if a cremation approval was given.”

  64. 76

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    Chee@73:

    First, read a little more carefully. I rather do like it here, and have very little in common with prr in terms of philsophy, morality, or grammar. I was in fact quoting him, not repeating. If you believe otherwise after reading at half speed, I will plead poor editing and leave it be.

    Second, regretfully, I have this thing called “a life”. I recommend getting one quite highly.

  65. 77

    chardonnay spews:

    chee @ 65, there are no weak. Democrats are so phony, lets invent a group of people we need to protect. Big saviors of the poor that they are driving around in their limos.

    this entire conversation re: the so called crisis of “universal health care” is just another “BIG” idea the dems need for campaigning. the losers that they are have no other original ideas so they keep trying to reinvent Hillarycare.

    Ever heard of Health Savings Accounts? Anyone and Everyone can have one. You don’t need an evil corporation to be insured anymore. http://www.irs.gov
    How many times did you go to the doctor last year? Once maybe? You spent $500/mo to cover your one visit with a co-pay of $20. You could have put $250.00 a month in your H.S.A., tax free, paid $250/mo for your catastrophic ins policy. At the end of the year you could have had $3000.00 in the bank accruing interest, your money, to keep. YOURS, and watch out here comes that word you dems hate….ownership.

  66. 78

    Mark spews:

    TJ @ 66 & 68

    Though I’ve only read the synopsis of the plan from your link, the Oregon plan sounds like a really solid, reasonable start.

    The link to the AIDS site underscores my comments that PR campaigns play a significant role in health services in this country. I find it interesting that the AIDS site also mentions that the Oregon plan could be presented as a “Republican approach to health care reform.” I wonder if this is merely to give Hard Lefties a visceral reaction and make them work harder to oppose it — regardless of merits.

    If I have the time, I might do a bit more research on the Oregon plan.

    I wonder what Goldy’s thoughts are on it.

  67. 79

    prr spews:

    Chee @ 57

    In the company of this group of sheep I am not a dick, I am a hard core asshole – to be sure.

    I turned into this site during the Gregoire election follow up to see what the far left had to say about the situation and I have not been dissapointed.

    As for my own personal stories. Yes, I have had loved ones with long term illnesses and insurance has covered evertything. My family all has living wills in place and as for these illnesses being financial, I just doen’t understand what you are saying.

  68. 80

    prr spews:

    Diggindude @ 71…

    If you’d like, I can put you in contact with the people at Glaxo and you can straighten them out.

    Heaven forbid that a company in America be prift driven.

    newsflash, you are a fucking asshole

  69. 82

    Chee spews:

    swatter@75. Less expensive way than burial, approx. $900. Now they want Terri’s remains. Even if they pursue this dastardly act of more interferance, finding a fracture on the head. proves nothing. Too little, too late. The more I hear about those Swindlers, the more I think they are. They are not many any points with many. Don’t think the insurance company paid out without digging into everything they could. I am sceptical but let it all hang out.

  70. 83

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    chardonnay@77:

    Boy, I keep wanting to duck out and leave this be, but you left such a big whopper here that I can’t.

    there are no weak. Democrats are so phony, lets invent a group of people we need to protect. Big saviors of the poor that they are driving around in their limos.

    Did I hear chardonnay say there are no poor? Trust me, I can assure you this is not true. They are not hypotheticals. I will be happy to introduce you to my friend Chanda (works daycare at the rate of $8/hour), Ah-yu and her husband (raising two children doing day labor and janitorial work), Edna (also a go-getter in the high-paid janitorial trade), etc.

    I’ll go to chrismasghost’s board and drop an email to you. Let’s do lunch, it’ll be an eye-opener, I assure you.

    Ever heard of Health Savings Accounts? Anyone and Everyone can have one.

    Yep. I’ve had them, and have used them when I was contracting. Catastrophic insurance for a family of four came to $226.00/month, and I kicked another $100/month or so in to handle the odd doctor’s visit, the dentist, etc. I make good bread doing my schtick, and so it was a little more than the monthly internet and cell phone bill, considerably less than the mortgage, and probably on par with groceries if I didn’t splurge on prosciutto, Italian wine, or any of my other favorite vices.

    This will come as a big shock to you chardonnay, but I know a bunch of people who will walk on the moon before they can kick that sort of money loose. They aren’t spendthrifts, quite the contrary. $X comes in, rent costs $Y, groceries costs $Z, gas and insurance for a car to get to and from work costs $W, and if there’s $100 or $200 extra at the end of the month, fortune smiled.

    I know it’s really hard to fathom, but lots of people live in Seattle on less than forty grand a year. Try it sometime. It may not change your life, but it’ll sure change the way you see things.

  71. 85

    prr spews:

    JSA @ 83

    Will it make me want to go get an education and contribute to society instead of looking for a free hand-out?

    Try it some time, it might just change your life.

    BTW, you might even get that Italian wine

  72. 86

    jcricket spews:

    swatter – The courts have already examined and rejected, the accusations that Michael Schiavo abused Terri. Try reading the actual source material. For example, the Dec 2003 GAL’s report. http://abstractappeal.com/schi.....Report.pdf

    As part of the first challenge to Michael’s Guardianship, the court appointed John H. Pecarek as Guardian Ad Litem to determine if there had been any abuse by Michael Schiavo. His report, issued 1 March 1994, found no inappropriate actions and indicated that Michael had been very attentive to Theresa. After two more years of legal contention, the Schindlers action against Michael was dismissed with prejudice.

    And from a footnote commenting that both parties (the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo) are subject to false perceptions:

    Of Michael Schiavo, there is the incorrect perception that he has refused to relinquish his guardianship because of financial interests, and more recently, because of allegations that he actually abused Theresa and seeks to hide this. There is no evidence in the record to substantiate any of these perceptions or allegations.

    The Schindler’s didn’t begin to accuse Michael of abuse until 2002, 11 years after receiving the bone scan they claim proves Terri was abused, and well after many other court challenges had been lost. When this bone scan was previously reviewed, Doctors concluded that the damage was a result of her potassium imbalance.

    Also note that this report is the third report from an independent court-appointed GAL (Pecareck in 1994, Pearse in 1998 and Wolfson in 2003). They all have reviewed the evidence, court proceedings and medical findings. They all concluded that Terri was not abused, even if they disagreed on other conclusions within the case. Pearse, for example, suggested the feeding tube remain in. So even people who disagree with Michael Schiavo on that central issue, agree there was no abuse.

    Nearly every “fact” you have offered is contradicted by the official court record.

    For example, there is sworn testimony from the Schindlers where they admit they encouraged Michael (after 3-4 years had passed) to begin dating other women, only to attempt to use that against him beginning in 1999.

    Another example, Michael didn’t immediately move to terminate life support after receiving the malpractice award. He received the award in 1993, and began to petition the court in 1997 for removal of life support. The official petition wasn’t entered until May of 1998.

    I’d also like you to note that the GAL made a point that the quality of the medical evidence the Schindler’s have presented has degenerated to the point of farce over the past 12 years. Wolfson’s report states:

    The scientific quality, value and relevance of the testimony varied. The two neurologists testifying for Michael Schiavo provided strong, academically based, and scientifically supported evidence that was reasonably deemed clear and convincing by the court. Of the two physicians testifying for the Schindlers, only one was a neurologist, the other was a radiologist/hyperbaric physician. The testimony of the Schindler’s physicians was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing.

    The fifth physician, chosen by the court because the two parties could not agree, presented scientifically grounded, academically based evidence that was reasonably deemed to be clear and convincing by the court.

    Following exhaustive testimony and the viewing of video tapes, the trial court concluded that no substantial evidence had been presented to indicate any promising treatment that might improve Theresa’s cognition. The court sought to glean scientific, case, research-based foundations for the contentions of the Schindler’s physician experts, but received principally anecdotal information.

    The increasingly inflamed lies and rhetoric of the Schindlers and their supporters, no matter how intense, does not and cannot provide any “balance” for the truth, and therefore it is rightfully dismissed.

  73. 88

    chardonnay spews:

    jsa on hill,
    your peeps cannot afford x y or z yet you advocate raising their rent. how is it you can be so 2 faced? raising taxes results in raising rents dumbass.

    I did not say poor, I said weak. just because someone makes less money than all you govn’t hacks does not mean they are weak. get it? there is more to life than money, at least they are working for theirs.
    and…what have you personaly done to help anyone, ever? if you are so extremely brilliant, start your own business and hire employees and buy them health ins. oh, sorry, that would actually require an IDEA!!!

  74. 89

    Goldy spews:

    Mark @61,

    The perfect is the enemy of the good. I’m not suggesting that a universal health care system would be perfect, I’m just saying it would be better than what we have now.

    And FYI, I come from a family of doctors. I had the privileged childhood of a doctor’s son. Those of my father’s generation who went into medicine solely for the money made crappy doctors and had unhappy lives. Many of those in my own generation who went into medicine just for the money are no longer practicing, and I say “good riddance.”

    But what makes you think doctors’ incomes will be any more impacted by universal health care than by HMOs and Medicare? Besides, today’s typical doctor has considerably less earning potential than he did a generation ago, and yet I see no shortage of qualified applicants fighting to get into medical school.

  75. 90

    spews:

    swatter @ 75
    where’s the medical evidence of abuse you were going to supply? This looks like a letter and some FL code, either of which represent evidence of anything. In fact, the letter refers to things that are alleged and unsubstantiated–ie, without EVIDENCE.

    otherwise, jcricket does an outstanding job of torpedoing your ‘arguments’ out of the water like a balsawood boat.

  76. 91

    Diggindude spews:

    prr@80
    average spending on research- 6%
    average spending on advertising-35%
    average net profits-15%
    Try matching those numbers to other industries.
    And the gov’t gives grants to universities, so that pharmaceutical companies can use the resources on the cheap, to finance their research.
    AT THE TAXPAYERS EXPENSE>

    fuck you too.

  77. 92

    chardonnay spews:

    jcricket @ 86
    lets call Julia patterson and inform her of this “language of conflict” maybe she & uncle ronny can pass a king county ordinance banning it. you would like that huh? censorship the opposing views, speach and ideas.
    SILENCE everyone but the vermin left for they are the chosen ones.
    while all the govn’t employees have cadillac insurance policies the “WEAK” go without. hypocrisy at it’s best.

  78. 93

    prr spews:

    Diggindude….Contact info below: Bitching about your conspiracy theory with the rest of these nutbags accomplishes nothing.

    +44 (0)20 8990 9000 (Pharmaceuticals)

     
    In the US:
    +1 888 825 5249

    Or you can write to the Registered Office at:

    GlaxoSmithKline plc
    980 Great West Road
    Brentford
    Middlesex
    TW8 9GS

  79. 94

    Chee spews:

    prr@ 81. Thanks for the invite, butI think you would like someone I know better, he just got out of prison, has the hots for hard-cores, tube steak and round eye. But I think your off topic.

  80. 95

    jsa on beacon hill spews:

    chardonnay@80:

    (I’m awaiting for someone to get out of a meeting, or I would never have this sort of time to school you):

    1) Raising taxes raises people’s rents? Fascinating. You know, I’ve been renting houses for about 5 years now, and I’ll break down how rent works in my corner of the world:

    per unit:
    mortgage payments (i.e. paid directly to the bank): $650/month.
    insurance: $35/month
    property taxes: $83/month.
    Utilities: $150/month.
    Routine maintenance and labor: ~$30-70/month. (this is hard to gauge because it comes in fits and spurts, and I do most of my own maintenance).
    Actual cash in my pocket: ~$-20 – $+50/month. Of course, property goes up at 20% a year, so I’m happy to rent places for a pittance as long as the mortgage gets paid.

    Property taxes in the US pay mostly for schools. Social services are not drawn from that particular pool of money. Besides, we have this clever method known as “progressive taxation” which involves taxing people at the top end of the income spectrum more heavily, and the bottom end less heavily. Thus, raising taxes may involve me paying more when I sell property (capital gains), but that doesn’t affect the rent, just how much I realize as a residual at the end of the game.

    2) I am not and never have been a government hack. I have run my own business, had employees, and met a payroll. Let me be the first to admit I’m a pretty good techie and a pretty ham-handed boss. I work in systems integration which is a high-skill, high-value industry. As much as I would love to help the poor of America by running a just and equitable janitorial shop, it’s a bit far afield for me.

    Thanks for offering the suggestion though.

  81. 96

    chardonnay spews:

    DD @ 91
    “And the gov’t gives grants to universities”
    yes and the abortion clinics sell fetus body parts to the university. democRAT promoted. what’s your point? you want to talk about govn’t grants now, lets get a list shall we????

  82. 97

    chardonnay spews:

    thanks for that tax breakdown you are so smart. gosh golly gee, like you are the only property owner how arrogant, it sound like you are a slum lord. and wow so successful and high skilled and ever so valuable to society. you place so much worth on yourself. how can you carry that gigantic head of yours.

  83. 98

    Chee spews:

    jsa beacon hill@83. Excellant description of the struggles many families are up against. Seems those who work hard get less and less for their dollar and no room to stretch anymore. people go without fixing their teeth, getting eye exams, glasses and much needed operations as drugs go higher, hospitals charge more, and insurance companies keep reducing what they will pay even after retirement. Children cost a lot to raise also.

  84. 100

    spews:

    so much for the allegation that Schiavo is blocking an autopsy:

    “Attorney George Felos told reporters late Monday afternoon in Florida that Michael Schiavo has requested that Pinellas County’s chief medical examiner perform on autopsy on his wife once she dies in order to answer questions about the severity of brain damage and to put to rest rumors about her physical condition.”

  85. 102

    spews:

    che @ 101
    yr welcome. It would seem that he made this concession today, perhaps in response to those calling for an autopsy–but it sure takes a lot of starch out of the idea that he’s hiding something.

  86. 103

    jpgee spews:

    swatter @ 35 ‘showing the potential for abuse’ is the exact same as the Texas Taco ‘showed the potential for cocaine use’. What is your point? If one is true then the other must be true also because there was potential

  87. 104

    Mr. X spews:

    #

    X@33. Darwinians? I know where that is across the border from Lithuaniania. Has your sorry-ass heard of Lithium. Maybe your health care provider has.

    Comment by Chee — 3/28/05 @ 11:50 am

    Gosh, what a substantive thoughtful response. Another fine example of the reasoning power of the faith-based community.

    PS – many of my mother’s ancestors were from Lithuania – so kindly FOAD

    PPS – Goldy – you really might want to rethink your open door policy if these morons can’t be bothered with making even a basic argument

  88. 105

    swatter spews:

    chee@82- best point on the issue I’ve heard.

    tj@90- why am I surprised you don’t believe what is in front of you?

    As for jimminy cricket, he was one of my favorite cartoon characters. Our current reincarnation is good, also, but torpedo my argument? Good one. Torpedoes were full of confetti.

    And hey, I thought you weren’t going to get involved?

  89. 107

    Diggindude spews:

    Who is paying this big price for dead tissue to test on?
    Surely not the big pharmaceuticals, with taxpayer money…..

  90. 108

    Phd spews:

    Chuck @ 3 & 106
    Maybe this response from diggindude also known as dumdum will answer your question. Warning some content may not be suitable for liberals.

    Subject Re: LOVING HUSBAND [Post#: 19065 / re: 19046 ]
    Posted by dumdum (User )
    Posted on 3/28/05 06:18 PM

    Fuc* you , think im afraid of you? kiss my a** is what you can do.
    Loud mouth.
    Funny how its always the guys fault when a psycho [censored] gets what she asked for all her life.
    Go lookin for a guy that beats women, then when they find one, its his fault that they moved in with him.
    Psycho [censored] are always seeking a new psycho man that will kick them around, thats what the want.
    Its a proven fact.

    I am assuming [censored] is bitch and/or bitches.

  91. 109

    Chris spews:

    You see no difference in pulling the plug on a dying person that needs a machine to breathe for him and starving a living (not dying) person to death. The only thing she needed was food and water just like you and I.
    Did you think they should not have fed Christopher Reeve. Should they have pulled the plug on him?

    You are the hypocrits.
    By the way, if starving and dehydration is so peaceful, why the morphine drip for Terri?

    Read this article; http://www.thecrimson.com/today/article506716.html

  92. 110

    Diggindude spews:

    phd @ 8 or should we call you christmasghost?
    That post by dumdum, was to christmasghost, who we believe is a former member of many abusive relationships, which she probably brought on herself, by seeking out disturbed individuals she could play out her self destructive fantasies.
    Now she and her buddy chardummy, whom we believe another sadistic partner, are dead against all men, they claim are all criminals, abusers, or murderers, hence all their male bashing posts.
    That little rant from dumdum, was in response to christmasghost, posting fraudulent material on king5 forum, and on christmasghosttown.com.
    If this retard duo, will cut the shit, so will dum dum

  93. 111

    chardonnay spews:

    DD @ 110,000 posts

    are you dumdum and diggindude? how many other personalities do you have? I hope you have mental health care.

  94. 112

    christmasghost spews:

    Diggindude…as I’m sure Goldy can attest to that was not me that posted that.
    It’s one thing to argue back and forth it is another completely to make false and slanderous statements like you have here.
    You are a very sick individual to say those things. And sicker even still to actually believe them, which I think you do.
    For someone who spends as much time on the computer as you do….you should know that Goldy will be able to tell that it was not me that posted that.

  95. 114

    Richard Pope spews:

    We should make it possible for everyone to have a reasonable level of health care. The USA is the only industrialized country that does not have some sort of universal safety net in this area.

    That said, countries like Canada or Britain are not the best role models to follow. In Canada, health care is provided by a variety of competing businesses (i.e. doctor’s offices, hospitals, etc.), but is 100% paid for by the government. This encourages overconsumption by irresponsible patients.

    Britain is one step worse. In addition to patients not being financially responsible for overconsuming resources, all health care is provided by the government. This encourages inefficiency and lack of responsiveness to public demands and concerns on the part of health care providers.

    A system like Japan, France or Germany would be the best. Health care is furnished by competing providers. And people are responsible for a portion of the bill — much like co-pays and deductibles in US health plans. This discourages overconsumption by hypochondriacs.

    The political dynamics of the USA probably will not allow this any time in the near future.

    Just think about it. A large percentage of people in the USA think it is murder to abort unborn babies and murder to starve Terri Schiavo to death. Probably most of these people (by this, I mean individuals holding these beliefs, as opposed to politicians vying for their support) also think it is absolutely terrible that society refuses to fund “a mammogram for the gal flipping your burger at McDonalds, or a dental exam for a farm laborer’s child”.

    For example, Roman Catholic clergy are among the strongest supporters of this “pro-life” position, both on abortion and Terri Schiavo. Roman Catholic clergy also strongly believe that society should ensure that everyone gets decent health care and has reasonable food, clothing, and shelter.

    But when it comes to political reality, the forces who call themselves “left” or “liberal” in the USA — i.e. Democrats — hastily dismiss anyone who opposes abortion or starving Terri Schiavo as a “right-wing Christian”. They judge folks by their religious and moral beliefs, and don’t bother to consider how that person might feel on economic and social justice issues.

    These kind of dynamics have resulted in the Republican Party being in a slight majority position in American politics today.

    They have also resulted in traditional left or liberal positions going absolutely nowhere in American politics — decades behind any other industrialized democracy in today’s world. The Democrats have driven away religious and moral people who have traditionally liberal values on economic issues. They have made up for this loss of traditional support by economically conservative people who are offended by the religiously conservative tone of the Republican Party.

    So now we have a political dynamic where people’s decisions are heavily influenced by religious and moral values, and relatively few battles are fought over economic issues.

  96. 115

    torridjoe spews:

    swatter @ 105
    silly me, I thought you’d be too embarrassed after discovering that Schiavo will have a public autopsy to respond with more moronicisms.

    Chris @ 109
    Did Chris Reeve ask to be taken off? If so, hell yes. And since Terri did too, the government(s) are infringing upon a well-defined right (cf Cruzan ’90) by delaying her death as long as it has. I blame Florida’s executive and legislative more than the US’s–nobody up there knew shit from shinola about this case and it seemed like manna from heaven to DeLay. But the people running Florida have known about this case for years, and had intervened and slowed things down numerous times along the way. Then for Bush to send a team to KIDNAP this woman in full contempt of court…outrageous.

    And I swear, it’s as if some of you are wearing fact-shields. Terri is NOT on a morphine drip. She has reportedly taken two 5mg doses over the weekend, which is SOP for vegetative malnutrition according to Dr. Cranford.

  97. 116

    Chris spews:

    Joe@115
    Nice job avoiding the question. Why the Morphine, drip or otherwise. You are right it is SOP but its purpose is clear. They don’t give morphine for the hell of it, because they have it lying around. If she is as unaware as you claim and can feel nothing as is also claimed what is with the morphine? What just incase their wrong? After all that would be terrible to starve someone and not give them morphine just incase they actually could feel what was going on.

    You don’t know that she asked not to live like this and neither does the court system. Her husband did not indicate she did not want to live like this until years after. You have to assume he is telling the truth years later. Also, how can you be sure that even if she had said she did not want to be kept alive by life support that she would not want to be kept alive under these circumstances? Do you really believe that they discussed this scenario and it took him years to remember her wishes? I am sure it went something like this; “Michael, if I am ever incapacitated but still alive and not dying and I don’t need any life support but what I can’t do is feed myself would you please starve me to death, please.”

    Regarding your comment about Christopher Reeve and if he asked to be taken off. Again, you have to assume that Michael is telling the truth but you don’t know that he is. You are talking about killing someone in a very inhumane way on questionable evidence. Why did he not say from day one that she did not want to live like this? I think this is Michaels wishes not Terri’s and you can’t say with any certainty I am wrong. If you are wrong you are supporting the murder of an innocent woman. If I am wrong and you are right the only thing that happens is a woman is provided the most basic of needs, food and water, and survives. If you are right she can’t feel, is in PVS (a vegetable), is completely unaware of what is happening, feels nothing, is basically brain dead. Her sounds and movements are involuntary. She has a loving family that is willing to support her through this. So what’s the harm? Is it crueler to keep someone like that alive, or is it crueler to kill someone that wants to live? It does not impress me that the courts have found his story to be true. They have made many mistakes in the past and will make many more in the future. It is very dangerous to so adamantly use the findings of the courts as your support for your position. If you do that you lose the ability to ever disagree with a court ruling. Can you not think of an instance you did not agree with the court system? Or are they only right this time because you want them to be right. Or an instance when doctors have been wrong, that’s right the entire lot that says she is aware, they’re the wrong ones.

    I hope you are not one of those shitheads that believe starvation and dehydration is a peaceful, painless way to go. It is ugly and painful and does terrible things to the body. I have seen the effects first hand, have you? In my personal experience (my father-in-law) the cause of death was not starvation and dehydration, it was only a symptom of the true cause of death. It ravaged his body and I can’t image how much worse it would have gotten if his real illness did not take him when it did. And of course they provided and we gave him morphine, to ease the pain and discomfort. He spent his last weeks dying in our home, which he did. He was dying, Terri was not. He physically could not eat and eating would not have helped him. His body lost its desire for food and water yet we still gave him what little water we could. We knew it would not help, but we did it anyway. He could not drink it but we tried to keep his mouth moist. Food and water will keep her alive, that’s all she needs. He died of a terrible disease that I wish upon no one. Terri is being killed because she lost her ability to speak for herself and to lift a fork. She is not dying of natural causes, plain and simple.

    Just ask yourself; what if I’m wrong? What if her family is right? You have to err on the side of life.

  98. 117

    Chris spews:

    Joe@115 – (Then for Bush to send a team to KIDNAP this woman in full contempt of court…outrageous.)

    Who is “wearing fact-shields”? You must be confused with the Elian Gonzalez case.

    Again, because I think this is critial, please tell me what the purpose of the morhine is?

  99. 118

    Diggindude spews:

    Chardummy & christmasfraud @ anywhere
    The only ones making threats to date, is you two.
    I have described you two very accurately.
    Your shrinks, refer to you as “enablers”.
    But, hey, there must be other reasons why you’re so bitter, and alone right?

  100. 119

    jpgee spews:

    diggindude @ 118 they are both extremely lonely and solitary because they cannot find that sugar daddy to take care of them in the way they think they deserve. Funny, they acturally deserve to be educated first and then potty trained.

  101. 122

    swatter spews:

    tj, I love it when you talk dirty.

    I hope you are prepared for the results.

    They will show, from my standpoint, that the injuries are consistent with murder. From your standpoint, the injuries will be inconclusive, or that is what the husband’s mouthpieces will point out.

  102. 123

    Chee spews:

    Diggindude@118. You have dropped the key word “enablers.” The term is used in every text book on Co-dependancy, where enabling is well defined and explained. Those who challenge the meaning, show they are not well read on the subject of co-dependancy, have not shed it or are in doubt. A well known good book to read would be, “Co-dependant No More,” when in doubt.

  103. 124

    Diggindude spews:

    Funny, when i talk back at them on their own level,(hate,profanity,insults,name calling), they cry foul, yet they return to the very same tactics time and time again.
    Oh well, you saw how many marriage proposals scott peterson received. Some women arent happy unless they’re miserable.

  104. 125

    spews:

    chris @ 116
    Why the morphine? To assauge the fears of the family, according to Cranford. It’s not for the patient, according to him, since they can’t feel anything.

    To the extent that we can know anything, we know she didn’t want to be kept alive this way. The evidence is clear and convincing. FIVE people, including her mother, heard expressions from her on the subject. On two separate occassions, multiple people heard her express at funerals for people who were kept alive, “I don’t want to live like that.” So yes, as much as we can know anything for purposes of making a decision, we know her desires. The harm of keeping her alive is that her constitutional right to die is being abrogated for no reason other than her parents can’t let go. The entire lot that say she’s aware, have never examined her.

    I am one of those shitheads, because I believe in the ability of science to make that determination. You apparently don’t find any search for truth compelling, whether in law or medicine. I’m sorry to hear that. It makes you completely incredible on this subject.

    And no, I’m not confused about Elian. The governor sent a state law enforcement team to forcibly take Terri last week. They stopped when local law enforcement refused to let them do so with out a fight. Read the papers once in a while.

  105. 126

    Chris spews:

    Joe@125 – “The entire lot that say she’s aware, have never examined her.”
    NOT TRUE and you know it. It must suck that you have to lie to make your point seem valid. What an asshole.

    – “Read the papers once in a while.”
    I am aware of the story, does it make it rue and so what did he send them in like you imply? No. Was there a confrontation and they were sent away? No. So even if I concede he sent people to get her, could that not be reasonable. Have them on the way so when the determination is made to go in and get her they are already there. Seems reasonable. He was working on getting legal custody of her and when it did not happen he did not send them in. Don’t make a bigger deal out of it then it is. You really think he ordered them to bust in, Kidnap her as you said and at the last minute called them off because the local police force was standing out front. Don’t be an idiot, if you can help it. You are hyping a big nothing, making drama where there is none.

    – “On two separate occassions, multiple people heard her express at funerals for people who were kept alive, “I don’t want to live like that.”
    I wouldn’t either, but what are the chances that those occasions where actually like her situation? Slim at best. There is a big difference between being kept alive by life support and being kept alive by feeding. I would not want to be kept alive by life support either if I could not recover to live without being hooked to a machine. That is not what she was facing and you know it. She did not require life support. There is no plug to pull. There is a big difference and you choose to be blind to it. I could see turning off the life support and letting nature take its course. But again, we are not talking about turning off machines that keep her alive we are talking about removing the most basic of needs – food and water. So based upon your position you would starve me to death as well because I made a comment that I would not want to live like that (meaning dependence upon life support), and you would be killing me just like they are her.

    – “The harm of keeping her alive is that her constitutional right to die is being abrogated for no reason other than her parents can’t let go.”
    She has a right to die a natural death (and to not be kept alive by machine) not to be starved and dehydrated to death. What about her constitutional right to life? You cannot convince me or many others that just because you believe the questionable evidence that it is true. You act as if it is undisputed fact that she wanted to die.
    One more time – WHY did he wait so long to claim she wanted to die??? Besides, we have laws against assisted suicide. This is not a natural death. What your position is is basically assisted suicide. You claim she wants to die and they are facilitating her death. If I walked in to a hospital and said I wanted to die do you think they would help me end my life?

    When the death certificate is issued the only cause of death that can be listed is death due to starvation and dehydration. It can’t read death caused by natural causes. The cause of death is not natural it is by the hand of someone else that she will die.

  106. 127

    spews:

    Chris, please supply the names of doctors who examined her and declared her not in PVS.

    You’re talking nonsense about the attempted kidnapping. They weren’t preparing to go get her, they WERE GOING TO GO GET HER. THEY WERE EN ROUTE. They turned around when they were told by local law enforcement that if they didn’t bring a judge with them, they would be stopped. Those are the reported facts; you are arguing them based on nothing.

    Your whole paragraph on life support is bizarre. A feeding tube IS life support, by medical and common sense definition. She is on life support, and she did not want to be. Those are the facts.

    Terri has waived her right to life, by asking that she not live in this condition. That is an accepted fact. She asked not to be kept alive, which is what the hospice is doing. I’m sorry that I can’t convince you, despite clear and convincing evidence validated by over 30 judges including the US Supreme Court on no less than 5 occassions.

    You are confused about what constitutes assisted suicide; that is legal in only one state; whereas what Terri is going through happens legally and blessedly, in all 50 states. She is not being killed by anyone’s hand. She is dying without intervention, a natural death.

  107. 128

    spews:

    from the Herald:
    PINELLAS PARK, Fla. — Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo was not to be removed from her hospice, a team of state agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted – but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge’s order, The Miami Herald has learned.

    Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, on Thursday that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.

    For a brief period, local police, who have officers at the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called “a showdown.”

    In the end, the squad from the FDLE and the Department of Children & Families backed down, apparently concerned about confronting local police outside the hospice.

    “We told them that unless they had the judge with them when they came, they were not going to get in,” said a source with the local police.

    “The FDLE called to say they were en route to the scene,” said an official with the city police who requested anonymity. “When the sheriff’s department and our department told them they could not enforce their order, they backed off.”

    The incident,known only to a few and related to The Herald by three different sources involved in Thursday’s events, underscores the intense emotion and murky legal terrain that the Schiavo case has created. It also shows that agencies answering directly to Gov. Jeb Bush had planned to use a wrinkle in Florida law that would have allowed them to legally get around the judge’s order. The exception in the law allows public agencies to freeze a judge’s order whenever an agency appeals it.

  108. 129

    christmasghost spews:

    jpg @119…….. you said “diggindude @ 118 they are both extremely lonely and solitary because they cannot find that sugar daddy to take care of them in the way they think they deserve. Funny, they acturally deserve to be educated first and then potty trained.”

    Comment by jpgee— 3/29/05 @ 7:13 am
    completely amazing that you would make this statement. so you agree with diggindude’s assessmant that women are all asking for it? that if you are an intelligent woman with a voice you must be asking for it? if you get abused by a man then you must have asked for it? do you also think that woemn who are raped asked for it too?
    and then you dig yourself in deeper with the whole “sugar daddy” thing? are you serious?
    amazing that you as a so called more-enlightened-than-thou liberal still think women are looking for sugar daddy’s. wow…..what a sexist you are.
    i am actually surprised by this……….

  109. 130

    jcricket spews:

    On a vaguely on-topic note:

    http://www.washingtonmonthly.c.....005973.php

    “We propose…a comprehensive reform: universal health care vouchers — a 10-point proposal that is congruent with basic American values and should secure broad, bipartisan support.”

    I like it – turn the righties on their heads so they have to come out against vouchers :)

  110. 131

    Chris spews:

    Joe – The problem is you refuse to entertain the possibility that you are wrong.
    I personally don’t think that Congress or that either Bush should be involved. So whether or not they were sent in to kidnap her and where turned away is really irrelevant because they should not be involved. I do believe this is a personal matter that should be dealt with by the state courts, as was done. Again, I do not support the gov’t getting involved at all; they are too involved in our lives as it is.

    So where do we disagree? I personally have not been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that this is truly what Terri would have wanted or that she is in PVS. You have been. I accept that the system has run its course and the result is what it is. I don’t want any further action to be taken by our government to intervene. What I want is for Michael to change his mind and have the tube reinserted, after reading the following you may want him to change his mind as well.

    The following is very interesting.
    http://www.useless-knowledge.c.....le345.html
    In Michael’s sworn testimony at the jury trial, commenced on November 5, 1992, Michael had a great deal to say about Terri’s condition and what was being done for her.
    An experimental implant at one time was tried in the hope that Terri would improve.
    Michael took Terri to a Dr. Hasbuchi in California, to have electrodes implanted in the hope that improvement would be seen. The implant was tried for two months.
    The following is taken directly from the trial. (The parts in bold are emphasis that I have added.)
    Q. Do you think that did any good? (relating to the implant ed.)
    A. (Michael speaking ed.) It didn’t do anything for her.
    Q. But it was worth a try?
    A. Yes, anything is worth a try.
    Michael was at this time willing to try anything to see his wife’s condition improve.
    During the trial a video was presented, compressing the average day for Terri activities into about 20 minutes. The video clearly demonstrated that a lot of stimulation was provided for Terri, with Michael being involved most of the time.
    From the trial :-.
    A Right here, basically, you can see she’s dressed, she’s already had her shower and everything. We would get her dressed, put her shoes and socks on. I’m trying out her hands there. You have to keep the inside of the hands, since she’s contracted, you have to keep them dry because infection can set in, and I usually do a little bit of range motion with her.
    Q. And while you’re doing that, do you talk to her?
    A. Yes, I am talking to her right now telling her it’s okay.
    Q. She doesn’t like that very much?
    A. No, she doesn’t. She does feel pain.
    And then a few sentences later from the trial :-
    Q. Does she like that kind of treatment very much?
    A. No, she does not. .. .
    Further on in the trial :-
    Q. I notice Michael, you’re holding her head back. Why are you doing that?
    A. Because she’ll fall forward, and if she falls fast she gets excited. It’s – – I was told by a doctor she was getting the feeling she’s falling.
    Later on the video showed a speech pathologist, working with Terri.
    Q. You hoping he can get her to the point where she swallows?
    A. Yes. You see here rubbing the bottom of her throat, that’s, I don’t know what the word is, gets them to swallow when you rub the bottom of their throat. She just swallowed that time. . . . . .
    The video then shows a physical therapist working with Terri:-
    Q. Does she express discomfort when some of these things are happening to her?
    A. Yes. Yes, she does.
    Q. How does she do that?
    A. She’ll moan and groan.
    Everything that was done for Terri in those few early years after her brain injury was not just hard work and stimulation. Michael would take her out for walks and take her out to the pond and sit and feed the ducks. In the cooler weather she would be taken to a baseball field nearby where the little leaguers play ball. Michael said at the trial. “I like to get her outside for fresh air.”
    If we look at Michael’s sworn statements we see very clearly that Terri is not PVS at all! This is not testimony by biased people who believe that Terri is not PVS (Terri’s parents and brother and sister), but by Michael himself who now wants her dead!
    Michael said that Terri doesn’t like her hands being stimulated and stretched. A person in PVS, is incapable of disliking something. To dislike something demonstrates cognitive ability and demonstrates that the person is not PVS.
    Michael says that Terri can feel pain. A person in PVS cannot feel pain and has no conscious experience.
    Michael says that if Terri’s head falls forward she ‘gets excited’ and gets the feeling of falling. This is known as the vestibular function of the brain. People with PVS don’t experience this.
    Michael acknowledged that when a physical therapist worked with her she would ‘moan and groan’ showing discomfort when some of these things were done to her. In other words, she was selective about what she felt was uncomfortable. No person in a PVS state can be selective about anything.

  111. 132

    christmasghost spews:

    chris…….very good post. it won’t change any of the death on demand minds here….but good try.

  112. 133

    Chris spews:

    Joe – Read the following – I am sure each of these doctors is a nutcase according to you. Only one was personally allowed to examine her. But you must know that specialists are sent medical files and other data all the time to assist in diagnosing patients without ever being in the same room. My wife works in the medical field and it is common place, for doctors to do just this. They obviously can’t treat a paitient remotely but the medical files provide enough information for a diagnosis.

    Neurologists Say: Recording of Terri Shows She’s Not PVS
    You’ll recall the audio recordings of Terri and her father which were posted at the Matt Drudge and the Family Research Council websites earlier this week. These recordings (actually two different versions of the same recording) were made last year, and include Terri’s father, Bob Schindler, talking to Terri, and Terri making noises which seem to be efforts to respond.
    I sent the recordings to the four neurologists I interviewed for my National Review Online article from last week, “Starving For A Fair Diagnosis”: Dr. Mack Jones, a neurologist in Florida; Dr. Thomas Zabiega, a neurologist in Chicago; Dr. William Bell, a professor of neurology at the Wake Forest University Medical School; and Dr. Peter Morin, a neurologist researching degenerative brain diseases.
    Three of the four neurologists reported that they believed that Terri was responding to her father, and was attempting to form words. The fourth, Dr. Peter Morin, demurred, saying that he did not want to venture an opinion based on an audio recording without accompanying video.
    The remaining neurologists all expressed confident opinions regarding what they heard in Terri’s recording. Dr. Mack Jones said “She does appear to be responding to her father’s questions and attempting to form words.” Dr. Bell concurred, saying that Terri “did respond [to her father's voice] as she seems to pace her vocalization to his voice and not the reverse (his voice to
    her vocalizations).”

    Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) — As Florida officials weigh whether or not to take Terri Schiavo into custody to investigate abuse and neglect allegations against her estranged husband, two leading nuerologists say Terri is not in a persistent vegetative state.
    Dr. Joseph Fins of New York Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center reviewed Schiavo’s medical records for the Florida Department of Children and Familes.
    Dr. Fins indicated Terri’s condition amy have been misdiagnosed and that she was more likely in a state of minimal consciousness rather than a PVS patient as courts and many media outlets have alleged.
    Such a minimally conscious condition is sometimes mistaken for a persistent vegetative state, Fins explained. However, Terri Schiavo is not PVS, he said.
    “I think now it can be argued that with the advent of minimally conscious state (as a diagnosis), that permanent vegetative state as a diagnosis becomes much more certain,” Fins said in a telephone interview with the Associated Press.

    Meanwhile, Dr. William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, also believed Terri is minimally conscious rather than a PVS patient.
    In addition to reviewing Terri’s medical records, Fins watched videotape footage of her and observed her at her hospice, although he was not permitted by Michael Schiavo from examining her.
    In a press conference about their analysis, Florida Governor Jeb Bush said the information lent credence to actions to take Terri in protective custody.
    “This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action,” Bush said.
    Florida officials have filed a petition with a state court seeking to take Terri into custody and the Florida DCF may do that with or without the court’s permission.
    Dr. David Stevens, the president of the Christian Medical Association said that he agreed with the nuerologists’ assessment.
    Saying he also disagreed with the PVS diagnosis, Stevens said PVS is a “pejorative because it labels a person as being a vegetable — taking away their humanity.”
    “It is also impossible to establish this diagnosis,” Dr. Stevens explained. “Some patients who have come out of PVS have stated that their mind was in a prison but they knew what was going on around them.”

    Clearwater, FL (LifeNews.com) — Despite the contention of Terri Schiavo’s estranged husband Michael and courts that have allowed him to starve her to death, a doctor nominated for the Nobel Prize says he believes medical therapies are still available that could help Terri party recover from her disabled state.
    Dr. William Hammesfahr is an internationally recognized expert on cases of brain-injured patients. He has been identified in helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long term disability, and return to work.
    Terri Schiavo’s injury, hypoxic encephalopathy, is a type of stroke that he treats every day with success.
    “We, and others I know, have treated many patients worse than Terri and have seen them regain independence and dignity,” Hammesfahr said.
    “There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo,” Dr. Hammesfahr explained. “I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays.”
    “It is time to help Terri, instead of just warehousing her,” he added. “She would have benefited from treatment years ago, but it is not too late to start now.”
    This isn’t the first time Hammesfahr has discussed Terri’s plight.
    Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.
    Hammesfahr also said he thought Terri would eventually be able to transfer herself from a wheelchair to a bed.
    “The patient is not in a coma,” concluded Hammesfahr said after observing Terri. “She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise.”
    He says Terri’s eyes clearly fixate on her family and she tries to follow the simple commands her parents give her.
    “She looks at you, she can follow commands,” Hammesfahr said.
    Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999.

  113. 134

    spews:

    chris @ 131
    so what you’re trying to say is that early on, Michael was just as confused about her actual state as her parents continue to be? I can buy that. But clinical evidence–a clear CAT, a flatlined EEG, and several examinations that yielded no pattern of response–conclusively place her in PVS.

    It’s also curious that you use a standard of “reasonable doubt,” which does not apply in this case. The proper standard is clear and convincing evidence.

  114. 135

    Chris spews:

    Joe the standard I use is not your standard or a written standard. It is a personal standard and if I choose to describe the standard that I hold to be convinved of her wishes by the term “Reasonable Doubt” that is what I’ll call it. I did not use it in a leagl term. Unlike you I don’t make moral judgements based upon what standard someone else established for me. It is called right and wrong and is not something you can check off on a list.

    By the way I have posted the information about the doctors that say Terri is not PVS. It is being held up right now. It is lengthy and I am sure Goldy has it blocked before allowing it through.

  115. 136

    Diggindude spews:

    It’s one thing to argue back and forth it is another completely to make false and slanderous statements like you have here.
    You are a very sick individual to say those things. And sicker even still to actually believe them, which I think you do.
    For someone who spends as much time on the computer as you do….you should know that Goldy will be able to tell that it was not me that posted that.

    Comment by christmasghost

    Well, maybe people should just go read some of your twisted views at ghost town before you go delete them?
    Or maybe I can go copy and paste some here for you?
    I know, you block copy and paste so no one can show what you say anywhere else.
    More lies/

  116. 137

    Chris spews:

    Joe@133

    So Michael was just confused? Maybe he is confused now, not then.

    It seems pretty clear to me by his own words and descriptions he was not confused. He knew exactly what he was talking about. He knew when she felt pain. I guess it was only by chance that everytime they performed certain treatments to her she would react in what was described as dicomfort or pain. In reality it was just luck of the draw. She just happened to make those involuntary moans and groans everytime they did that to her. Don’t be stupid, she did not like it and it hurt and Michael knew it.

  117. 138

    christmasghost spews:

    joe…where did you get the flatlined eeg? if she were a flatliner she would be on a ventilator. flatliners cannot breathe on their own…..so where did that info come from? also….michael said in the beginning he had no idea what her wishes were. that was for the malpractice settlement. if i were the insurance company i would be looking into insurance fraud right now. he said he needed the money to take care of her for the approximately 50 years she could still live. what happened to that story?

  118. 139

    spews:

    chris @ 137
    It seems pretty clear to me by the overwhelming medical evidence that he was in fact confused. Don’t be stupid, she was unable to have those responses and the medical community knew it.

    ghost @ 138

    The report of flatline EEG was from Cranford last night.

  119. 140

    spews:

    chris @ 135
    well if you’re going to use a made-up standard, why should anyone pay attention if it has no bearing on the case?

    I don’t need analysis of her condition–we know she is PVS. I just want the names of the doctors who claim she is not PVS, and when they examined her.

    I’m not making ANY moral judgement. That’s rather the point–it’s not our place.

  120. 141

    christmasghost spews:

    joe…look it up. it’s just not possible to be a flatliner and have the function that terri has, much less be without a ventilator for 15 years. does that not bother you at all?

    and digger…..i don’t know why i [or anyone else] even bother to answer you. but by all means…please anyone that wants to read my “twisted” point of view on my blog…feel free.
    http://www.christmasghost.com
    of course if you have been listening to digger you may be very disappointed as it’s not twisted. what is twisted is a “man” [digger] that thinks women in abusive relationships are getting what they deserve.he also hates gays, mexicans, indians…you name it…he hates them.
    now that’s twisted……..
    and digger…keep on sending those threats..i just forward them on to the police.

  121. 142

    spews:

    chris @ 133
    so now do you admit that no doctor who has examined her has said she is NOT in a PVS? You are wrong that anyone can diagnose PVS without an examination–you must do a long string of tests for reaction pattern, which cannot be done from video or recordings.

    I hope you’ll admit that you were wrong, and that I was right to say that no doctor who has examined her has found her in anything but PVS.

  122. 143

    spews:

    ghost @ 141
    when did you examine Terri?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03.....octor.html

    Dr. Ronald Cranford, a neurologist and medical ethicist at the University of Minnesota Medical School who has examined Ms. Schiavo on behalf of the Florida courts and declared her to be irredeemably brain-damaged, said, “I have no idea who this Cheshire is,” and added: “He has to be bogus, a pro-life fanatic. You’ll not find any credible neurologist or neurosurgeon to get involved at this point and say she’s not vegetative.”

    He said there was no doubt that Ms. Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. “Her CAT scan shows massive shrinkage of the brain,” he said. “Her EEG is flat – flat. There’s no electrical activity coming from her brain.”

    Any other flatly unsubstantiated, wackjob theories you want to throw out there?

  123. 146

    Diggindude spews:

    and digger…keep on sending those threats..i just forward them on to the police.

    Comment by christmasghost

    Oh, now this isn’t one of your lies either right?
    What a joker.
    I’m going to post this to your friends.

  124. 147

    christmasghost spews:

    why not ask a neurologist that isn’t involved with either pro life or pro death. if you are going to dismiss cheshire you had better dismiss cranford as well. he has a well known agenda.
    the protection ,federal, for americans with disabilities was put in place to protect people just like terri that people look at and say “oh my god…i wouldn’t want to live that way”
    remember when you were twenty and couldn’t imagine being 70??? but, funny thing as you get closer to that age you don’t find it quite as repulsive as you once did.
    if terri is truly hopeless then i think we should be able to help people die with compassion.but not starving to death. if you wouldn’t do it to a serial killer why in the world would you be willing to do it to someone who is severely disabled?
    i think this whole story is beyond sad…and some of the things people have said are appalling.
    there will be a backlash from this as more and more people think about it. it will hurt any honest good faith tries at allowing people to die painlessly with medical help. there will be more mistrust now, unfortunately. although after reading about the lack of honesty in reporting on oregon’s laws……maybe it’s deserved.

  125. 148

    spews:

    ghost @ 147
    why not ask a neurologist who has EXAMINED her? You claimed a flatline was not possible. You were wrong. Care to admit it?

    Can you cite the source for your sense of “dishonesty” in reporting on Death with Dignity?

  126. 149

    Diggindude spews:

    See, cg, THIS accusation you just posted, actually IS liable.
    You should know that, being the legislative scholar you pass yourself off to be.

  127. 150

    Diggindude spews:

    You can rub the truth in he, she, its, face all day long, and all you’ll get for it is denial.
    cg cant tell the truth, or admit to making mistakes.
    Thats why he,she,it, keeps ending back in abusive relationships.

  128. 151

    Diggindude spews:

    CG @ anywhere
    I see you’ve erased all the crap you had up at ghost town, concerning people at H.A.
    Why, were you afraid to let them see what you think about them?

  129. 152

    christmasghost spews:

    diggindude…what in the hell are you talking about? just what did i erase? you really don’t understand how things work do you?
    so….where did i post all this crap about people here? and what would that be? why don’t you tell me what post it was in smart ass? hmmmmm?
    oh…you can’t? that’s right. because as usual you are lying.
    and if my site is so boring to you why are you always there? and why are you using whois to try to find out my real name…hmmmm?
    i use tracking software just like about everyone else that has a blog site….you complete idiot.
    abusive relationships…that just cracks me up. my husband of 27 years thought that was funny too.but as he said you are probably such an expert on abusive relationships because you are an abuser. after reading what you wrote…i have to agree. get help.

  130. 153

    christmasghost spews:

    joe@148.i already did. david reinhard who wrote an op ed for the oregonian. it was quoted other places too, but i thought that would be the most accurate since it was in oregon.
    have you heard differently?

  131. 155

    Chris spews:

    Dumbass Joe@142 “I hope you’ll admit that you were wrong, and that I was right to say that no doctor who has examined her has found her in anything but PVS.”

    No I don’t admit that at all. Read it again asswipe. I clearly show that a doctor that did physically evaluate her says she is not PVS. You ignore that. What the “f” are you talking about? Why can’t you rely on the truth to prove you point? Why must you make shit up?

  132. 156

    Chris spews:

    Joe@140 “I’m not making ANY moral judgement. That’s rather the point–it’s not our place.”

    That is the whole problem with liberalism. You are afraid to make a moral judgement on anything, because you don’t feel it is your place. That is why society is the way it is. Do whatever feels good, whatever suits you. Who am I to say what is right or wrong. I feel sorry for those that have no moral compass, like yourself.

  133. 157

    spews:

    chris @ 155
    you must realize the mistake you’ve made, since you’re turning to personal attacks.

    NONE of the doctors you cited examined her. If you disagree, give me the name of the doctor, and when he conducted an examination. If you’re having trouble with the definition of the clinical term “examine,” perhaps I can help ease your confusion. But I am correct, and you are wrong–none of the doctors you cite have examined Terri.

  134. 160

    spews:

    chris @ 156
    When did I say I was afraid to make a moral judgement? I never did. What I said was that it was NOT MY PLACE, which is absolutely correct. Nor is it anyone’s. You have the mistaken impression that something other than documented legal precepts are of value in a judicial proceeding. They are not–in fact they are antithetical to them.

    There is no room for moral judgement in this case. There are only two important considerations:

    1) Did Terri Schiavo express a will not to be kept on life support?

    2) Is she in a permanent state of vegetation, with no hope of recovery, kept alive only on life support?

    Those two points were addressed by our judicial system, to an extent no similar case has. The findings have been made and repeatedly validated. End of story.

  135. 161

    spews:

    ghost @ 159
    for the third time now:
    Name the doctor, and the date (you can even be approximate) of his or her medical examination of Terri Schiavo.

  136. 162

    VCRW spews:

    I think you just want the free Heroine like they give up in Canada Goldy. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150076,00.html

    Now the bleeding hearts will see steam roll from their ears at the mere mention of the fact that the socialized model they want to impose upon us (e.g. the Canadian Model) views free giveaways of Heroine and the providing of “crack Rooms” for junkies to be a higher priority than perhaps medical equpiment that wasn’t made in the 1940’s. But we have to have our priorities right?

    Oh, and lefties, don’t forget to post all the bogus links about how “Harm Reduction” (cute name isn’t it?) and the anectdotal “evidence” about how giving away crack is really helping our society. The dopeheads have certainly spent a lot of time creating many bogus sites out there for their thinly veiled attempt to get a taxpayer subsidized stash.

    Golday says “The difference is, under a health care system that guarantees universal access, rationing will be based on reasoned criteria that prioritizes resources towards where they provide the best return”

    That is liberal speak meaning that the bureaucrats will get to decide if you are “worthy ” for that heart operation (e.g. life or death) . In Canada they don’t allow private companies to offer the same services that are offered under the “universal” system. Why do you think so many people come from Canda to get heart operations and MRI’s?

    “Not to mention patients like Terri Schiavo, whose hospice care taxpayers are largely paying for through Medicaid.”

    Sorry Goldy. There was a large settlement ($1.6 million malpractice award ) that is paying for Terri Schiavo. Nice try though. You should have thrown in “100,000 dead in Iraq”, “WMD” and other liberal talking points while you were at it just to see if any of them stick. I am frankly surprised you missed the opportunity.

  137. 163

    swatter spews:

    I’ve heard of “gumshoe” detectives, but here we have a “gumshoe” attorney whose only definition is his definition. I wonder why there is even a court test if there is only one definition of a word- his.

    For someone who wasn’t going to get involved, you sure got involved.

  138. 164

    Chris spews:

    Joe – one nore time for you. I am starting to think you are the brain dead one.

    Cut from comment posted above@133.

    Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.

    What is the key word here Joe? after EXAMINING Terri.

    Care to admit you were wromg?

    By the way the persoanl attacks come from lack of respect for you. Lack of respect for you comes from your lies and poor & unsound arguments. It is my attempt to converse with you on a level you are worthy of and of which you can understand.

  139. 165

    Chris spews:

    Joe@161 why would ghost post the information you asked for? You will just ignore it, like you always do. And then continue to ask for it over and over again like you never got it in the first place.

  140. 166

    jcricket spews:

    ghost – You’re wrong, yet again. Look carefully at Hammesfhar’s words.

    “The patient is not in a coma,” concluded Hammesfahr said after observing Terri. “She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise.”
    He says Terri’s eyes clearly fixate on her family and she tries to follow the simple commands her parents give her.

    He observed Terri. This may seem the same as an examination to a lay person, but observation and medical examination are two totally separate things, even Hammesfhar knows that. And his claims are not born out by the multiple independent doctors who have spent far more time with Terri than he has (i.e. watch the full video). Even the GAL spent nearly a month with her.

    lies is also lying about his “Nobel Prize nomination” and his status as “world renowned”. He has not published a single thing in a peer-reviewed medical journal. Cheshire also actually admits that Terri does not consitently respond to stimuli, but they makes the non-scientific leap that you can “feel a presence in the room”. Call it what you will, but neither of these Doctors are practicing evidence-based scientific medicine.

    As has been pointed out to you, numerous times, the only people claiming Terri is not in a PVS or can be rehabilitated have either

    1) Made their diagnoses remotely (which borders on malpractice)

    2) Lie about their medical experience or have experience in inappropriate fields (like osteopathic medicine)

    3) Make incredible leaps of faith not based on actual evidence.

    Read Wolfson’s report:

    The scientific quality, value and relevance of the testimony varied. The two neurologists testifying for Michael Schiavo provided strong, academically based, and scientifically supported evidence that was reasonably deemed clear and convincing by the court. Of the two physicians testifying for the Schindlers, only one was a neurologist, the other was a radiologist/hyperbaric physician. The testimony of the Schindler’s physicians was substantially anecdotal, and was reasonably deemed to be not clear and convincing.

    [...]

    The court sought to glean scientific, case, research-based foundations for the contentions of the Schindler’s physician experts, but received principally anecdotal information

    And more, specifically about swallowing:

    Three, independent sets of swallowing tests were performed early in Theresa’s medical treatment: 1991, 1992 and 1993. Each of these determined that Theresa was not able to swallow without risk of aspiration (and consequent infection).

    [...]

    The recognized gold standard test is the modified barium swallowing test, generally done in a hospital or at a facility that has radiology equipment. Theresa’s three previous tests were barium swallowing tests.

    You can dismiss the courts and us all you want. Frankly, if you want to take neurological advice from osteopaths, people who make diagnoses via video or lie about their medical qualifications, feel free. But the rest of us here in the reality based community will continue to rely on evidence-based scientific medicine.

  141. 167

    spews:

    chris @ 164
    Hammesfahr never examined her. Part of the problem is your use of poor sources to make your case. LifeNet? Come on. As you’ll note, the article contains a separate falsehood, indicating that he was nominated for a Nobel, which he was not. Hammesfahr has NO peer-reviewed research to his name. And he never examined her.

    You have not produced the data of the examination.

    And the personal attacks come from a lack of respect for yourself, not me. I find it amusing. But nobody who believes they’re right would lash out in such an abusive manner. Your “excuse” sounds an awful lot like, “well, I hit her–but she made me mad!”

  142. 168

    jcricket spews:

    More from Wolfson’s Report:

    In recent months, individuals have come forward indicating that there are therapies and treatments and interventions that can literally re-grow Theresa’s functional, cerebral cortex brain tissue, restoring part or all of her functions. There is no scientifically valid, medically recognized evidence that this has been done or is possible, even in rats, according to the president of the American Society for Neuro-Transplantation.

    So, the actual world-renowned experts on neurology all agree about Terri. And some other Doctors believe otherwise, but since they describe themselves as world-renowned or Nobel prize nominated, we’re supposed to believe them? That’s the crappiest standard of evidence I’ve ever seen.

  143. 169

    jcricket spews:

    Here’s a classic example of the medical quackery for people like Dr. Cheshire.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=611884

    “Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her,” Cheshire said in the affidavit.

    So, during his 90-minute observation (not examination) he explicity admits that there’s no evidence to prove his point, but he goes on to conclude the opposite of every medical professional who has actually examined Terri, and every officer of the court who has reviewed the evidence. He also has only seen the heavily edited video tape provided by the parents, not the far longer one the courts and other medical experts have reviewed.

    Fine, he’s entitled to his belief, despite the evidence, but that’s just about the least plausible medical diagnosis ever made. As the article points out:

    But the first part of that sentence, in fact, “starts to meet the criteria for vegetative state,” said Dr. Gene Sung, director of the neurocritical care and stroke section of the University of Southern California.

    Again, Hammesfahr and Cheshire (and for that matter, Frist) are bordering on medical malpractice here.

    Let’s not even get into people like Delay, who are well into the realm of slander.

  144. 170

    Chris spews:

    I am not making excuses Joe. I don’t need to, I don’t like you, plain and simple. Let’s not get all emotional and hurt by it. I think your an asshole, it is what it is. I am not concerned with how you feel about my choice of words or “personal attacks”. I don’t care if you think it means I really don’t believe I am right and this is my means to cover it up. Give your wife back her fucking skirt and ask to have your balls back. You got your ass kicked a lot didn’t you?

    I am sure you don’t like or respect me either, the difference is I don’t care and you clearly do.

  145. 171

    spews:

    me @ 167

    my bad, Chris–I had Hammesfahr confused with Cheshire in this instance. Hammesfahr was a Schindler-retained doctor who examined her for the trial proceedings. I was in error on that point; I apologize.

    However, that doesn’t keep Hammesfahr from being a fucking quack.

    *he claims he was Nobel nominated. He was not:
    http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

    *he was disciplined by the FL medical board for charging but not treating patients:
    http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220002

    *he’s never been published in a peer-reviewed journal of any repute, despite trying:
    http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sp.....r%2C+quack

    *he is listed as a “promoter of questionable methods”
    http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/
    and
    http://www.quackwatch.org/01Qu.....s/tcd.html

    *the journal in which he has appeared,
    http://www.medforum.com/joblin...../root.html
    is a website which he himself runs
    http://riffle.blogspot.com/200.....l#register

    *here’s the guardian ad litem’s review of Hammesfahr’s diagnosis:
    http://www.miami.edu/ethics/sc.....report.pdf

    *and here’s another examining physician’s review, including comments on Hammesfahr’s work:
    http://pekinprattles.blogspot......hiavo.html

  146. 173

    Chris spews:

    Joe – unless your lying and your words don’t truly reflect your opinions and the way you look at things in general, then I believe I do know you well enough for me to know I don’t like you. And if you are lying it makes you still an ass and I would still not like you. You don;t have to have met someone to know them and not like them. Do you like President Bush? have you ever met him. Have you ever had a conversation with him? You and I have “talked” plenty for me to develope my dislike for you.

    ***************

    Even more powerful is the testimony of the numerous doctors who emphatically deny that Terri is in a PVS. The most convincing medical testimony comes from Dr. William Hammesfahr, a neurologist specializing in the treatment of brain injuries, who has spent approximately twelve hours examining Terri. At the October 24 press conference, Hammesfahr explained that Terri is able to respond to commands: She can raise and lower her limbs, although her range of motion is limited by severe muscular contractures from a lack of physical therapy for more than a decade. Doctors testifying for Michael Schiavo have dismissed such responses as reflexes. But what is most telling is Hammesfahr’s description of Terri’s response to a standard strength test: In this test he asked Terri to lift up her leg while he pressed down on it with his hand. He instructed her to keep lifting it in spite of his pressure. Hammesfahr explained how he could feel Terri pressing up against his hand with the same degree of force with which he was pressing down, so as to keep her leg in the same relative position. Such a response, Hammesfahr explained, is simply not reducible to a “reflex.”

    Hammesfahr has even observed her move her head and limbs into positions that clearly cause her discomfort and maintain them in order to carry out instructions he gave her. Such behavior, Hammesfahr said, cannot be reflexive: “Reflexes are designed to avoid injury. They are there to prevent pain.” One has to overcome reflexes in order to perform a task in spite of discomfort or pain.

  147. 174

    spews:

    chris–
    there is a long post pending that apologizes for confusing Hammesfahr with Cheshire, who has not examined her. That, in fact, was wrong. However, Hammesfahr is an unreliable doctor, not peer reviewed in any reputable journal except his own, disciplined by the Florida Medical Board, on Quackwatch’s list, still claiming he’s a Nobel nominee, and regarded by Terri’s GAL as providing no credible and objective testimony to the case.

  148. 175

    Chris spews:

    Dr. John Young, Dr. William Maxfield, and Dr. William Hammesfahr spoke to the media Friday. “This woman is not in a persistent vegetative state,” Young said.

    Maxfield and Young have examined Terri during the legal battle.

    Maxfield, a radiologist, said CT scans from last summer show some damage but not the enormous loss of tissue described by others. “People ought to know she can be rehabilitated,” he said.

  149. 176

    Chee spews:

    Chris@175. Two doctors on the case addressed this issue tonight on TV, say Terry is devastatingly horribly dysfunctional, retorically in a vegatating state, no hope of recovery. An autotopsy will not show or prove much, brain cells can not be counted microscopic process and that pathologists will have to study all her records from the time she had pulmonary arrest till now.

  150. 177

    swatter spews:

    Come on TJ, even you wouldn’t respect quackwatch.com or another blogger as a valid source if the gumshoe were on the other foot, would you?

  151. 178

    jcricket spews:

    I would actually respect quackwatch. They have an excellent track record of investigating medical quackery.

    More importantly, TJ has largely relied on the actual court record.

    Hammesfhar can say all that he want, but read carefully what the reputable doctors and court found about his testimony:

    “…It is clear that this therapy (vasodilatation therapy) is not recognized in the medical community. …What undermines his [Hammesfahr] credibility is that he does not present to this court any evidence… he offered no names, no case studies, no videos, and no tests (sic) results to support his claim that he had success in all but one of them. If his therapy is as effective as he would lead this court to believe, it is inconceivable that he would not produce clinical results of these patients that he has treated. And surely the medical literature would be replete with this new, now patented, procedure. Yet, he has only published one article and that was in 1995 involving some 63 patients, 60% of whom were suffering from whiplash (p. 7).

    Let’s summarize:

    On the surface, a number of doctors have been willing to say Terri is not in a PVS, and yet their claims are clearly refuted by reams of medical evidence and testimony. Or, their own evidence (see Cheshire) contradicts their findings.

    On the surface, a number of doctors claim they can rehabilitate Terri, and yet they haven’t published their findings in peer-reviewed journals (if at all), and even when they have published, it’s not regarding patients in PVSs.

    All of the Schindler’s claims work like this – on the surface, it appears they have some validity, yet when examined, there is nothing to them. That seems hard for you pro-tubers to accept, but it’s what the facts support.

  152. 179

    swatter spews:

    jimmy, let’s review the record. There is anecdotal evidence of abuse by the ex-husband, yet we can’t get another independent analysis.

    Death row inmates get much better treatment, including not having to starve to death.