Pelz: spend part of city surplus on schools

Seattle’s tax revenues are coming in higher than projected, and City Council candidate Dwight Pelz has a good suggestion for what to do with some of the extra money.

City Council candidate Dwight Pelz said Wednesday that Seattle should put up to $10 million of the city’s $55 million in extra tax revenue into public schools.

This week Mayor Greg Nickels proposed a $760 million general fund budget, up from $717 million a year ago. Nickels proposed that some of the extra money from strong tax revenue go toward street resurfacing, more sidewalks, police and firefighters.

Roads, police and firefighters are good… but so are schools, and man could they use the money. This sounds like a pretty reasonable proposal to me.

Comments

  1. 1

    Richard Pope spews:

    How come Bellevue schools are better than Seattle schools, even though Bellevue spends 20% less per student than Seattle?

  2. 2

    Curious George spews:

    Would dedication of X number of dollars of local revenue jeapordize a similar number of dollars from the state? After all, the state is responsible for funding basic education. The excess local funds may get tossed into the total funds used for that purpose.

  3. 3

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Richard Pope@1–
    Excellent point.
    Goldy, in his typical knee-jerk LEFTIST PINHEAD response to seeing a little extra cash lying around, IMMEDIATELY feels to the need to fund something (Schools) where Goldy has never looked at their Budget or any statistics. Goldy is CLUELESS as to whether or not the current $$$ in Seattle Schools are spent wisely. Goldy merely takes the Bobbleheads at the School District’s WORD or ASS-U-ME’s they are being well spent.
    Goldy===MR. NO Accountability
    It’s ALWAYS about more tax money being spent and bigger government for you, isn’t it Goldy!
    For a guy with an IQ well into double-digits, you sure have blinders on and ain’t the least bit curious before you start “shilling” for more $$$.
    I’ve got an idea….why doesn’t Seattle give the dollars back to taxpayers. It’s THEIR money Goldy. The guv’mint don’t have no money Goldy. Remember…WE THE PEOPLE. I’ll bet there are many, many fees and regulations in Seattle that are either breakeven or less in terms of cost benefit. Start rolling stuff back and ELIMINATE some of these bureaucratic agencies and taxes. ELIMINATE some of the City UNION jobs.

  4. 4

    prr spews:

    Richard,

    I’d like to answer the question posed in #1.

    You’ve heard the statement, It takes a village to raise a child?

    Basically, in Bellevue, you have successful educated people sending their kids all to the same schools. While there is a less eduacted, lower income demographic involved in that school system, it is not nearly as prevelant as in the Seattle Schoool System.

    Additionally, in my opinion, I think the vast majority of school kids in Bellevue have an understanding that education does not stop at High School.

    The same could not be said for Seattle.

    A great example would be comparing a pure bred dog and a mutt.

  5. 5

    righton spews:

    Goldy,
    I thought the most urgent issue was the Viaduct. If so, then use the money there. If not, give up your silly lawsuit idea and/or go sue Pelz instead for absconding w/ the needed money.

    And yeah its not enough money, but when my family needs a new car, and we get a windfall check that is small, we still save that money towards fixing the old one, and/or for the new one.

  6. 6

    righton spews:

    PRR,
    You basically just said lets cut the funding some more, since its mostly about successfull parents, attitudes.

    Good luck w/ that one in Moscow by the pacific.

  7. 7

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    prr-
    Let’s see now….
    Seattle is overwhelmingly LEFTIST PINHEADS.
    Seattle produces mutts.
    LEFTIST PINHEADS are mutts.
    Rather simple equation, isn’t it?
    Why didn’t I think of that!
    Actually I did, but I’m just way too nice to have said it!

  8. 8

    Puddybud spews:

    Guys, it’s more about efficiency. Bellevue is more efficient because there are fewer groups with their hands out looking for “the free lunch” in Bellevue vs. Seattle. Bellevue doesn’t have all of those Great Society programs running rampant in their school systems or in the city. People pull themselves up by their bootstraps not with someone else handouts.

    Uhhh, Lucite I am not speaking about free lunches for poor peeples. But then again maybe I am. That costs money too. I am speaking about you and your kind who are supposedly the “teachers” of the chirren. Teaching WHAT to the chirren. Since you have the dysfunctionals (idiotic teachers, school boards, and PTAs) in Seattle and the functionals (caring teachers, school boards and PTAs) in Bellevue, naturally the cost per student is less. You don’t hear about Bellevue schools kicking out military recruiters, hence my dysfunctional Seattle commentary!!!

  9. 9

    Puddybud spews:

    Oh yes, wasn’t there some stoopid skit approved by Lenin’s Useful Idiots in some Seattle school mocking the military last school year that was discussed here on animal hind parts? The Prosecution rests!

  10. 10

    prr spews:

    Righton @ 5

    I’m not saying anything about the budget.

    I’m making a statement about environment.

    The environment in the Seattle school system sucks. The drop-out rate is stagerring, the expectation is low and the outside influences to disrupt education are more common place. Failure is the accepted goal.

    I think Ted Knight said it best in the Movie Caddieshack.

    “The world needs ditch diggers too, Danny”

    In fact, that could be the path to a new slogan.

    “Seattle Public Schools, providing Seattle with ditch diggers, ex-cons, protestors and workers for the Cities service industries since 1885″

    even more accurate would be:

    “Seattle Public Schools, a great place to teach your kid how to work for someone else.”

  11. 11

    Curtis Love spews:

    Seattle schools can use all the help they can get. They are handling the bulk of the area’s foreign immigrants and special-needs students.

  12. 12

    prr spews:

    Curtis, exactly what I have been saying

    “outside influences to disrupt education are more common place”

  13. 13

    Puddybud spews:

    PRR: There are no role models that the chirren can look at and identify with. I had two science and a history teacher whom I looked up to. The history teacher’s father was a local politician and he was a great friend. Whom are the role models in Seattle? Head-up-de-Ass Lucite? The Whiners and Complainers? Goldy? The Prosecution rests.

  14. 14

    prr spews:

    Puddy,

    excellent question.

    Let me give you an example of the role models found in Seattle public schools.

    This poor sole was obvioulsy a victim of a Conservative conspiracy, in fact we should double the budget so Seattle Public schools can spend it’s money in this same fashion.


    Clint Webb may not have really been one of Seattle Schools’ more remarkable employees, but he was certainly one of the more amazing characters who got caught. Webb was apparently sort of a blueprint for Al Jones. Then again, one might argue that Al Jones was the blueprint for Clint Webb, because Jones worked for Seattle Schools long before Webb, later returning to Seattle Schools after both Jones and Webb had been fired.

    Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is that Webb was actually fired for having sex with a student. (Jones was fired for some other problems he had in Richmond, Virginia, then got nailed for ALLEGEDLY having sex with a student in Seattle, after which his seedy record was revealed. But he never was fired.) Another difference is that Al Jones seems to have dabbled in everything but murder. Come to think of it, Clint Webb was never exactly accused of murder either.

    Clint Webb might never have become a celebrity if he hadn’t been fired for having sex with a 14-year-old student in 1995, after which the following unbelieve-anywhere-but-Seattle-Schools facts emerged:

    • More colorful than your average public school employee, Clint Webb’s career included convictions for manslaughter, robbery, assault, theft, larceny, forgery, shoplifting, and obstructing police. However, his only ties to organized crime appear to be two stints with Seattle Schools.

    • In 1976, Webb was hired at South Shore Middle School to help on the playground and with clerical duties, despite his criminal record and SIXTH-GRADE education. (Sheez, he would have been lost in middle school, eh?)

    • Webb’s former wife, Linda Jeanette Stevenson, also had a criminal history, including six aliases and convictoins for theft, prostitution, attempted forgery and selling heroin. She worked as a physical-education assistant at West Seattle High School for four years.

    • In 1978, Webb was assigned to Rainier View Elementary School. With a month, Webb left the district.

    • 1980 – Webb was convicted of…manslaughter? High on cocaine and angry at Robert G. Moore, a disabled landlord who wanted to evict Webb from his apartment, Webb and Milbert Lomar Brown drug Moore downstairs, drove to Elliott Bay, and dumped him in the ocean, where he drowned. Yup, that’s what I call manslaughter; it doesn’t remotely resemble kidnapping and murder.

    • In 1985, Webb was convicted of shoplifting. He was also rehired by the Seattle School District, working as a physical-education attendant.

    • After Webb and a companion named Aisevbonaye had a falling out in 1988, Aisevbonaye said she reported Webb to South Shore Middle School Principal Bob Gary, saying, “He’s a drug addict. He’s an alcoholic. He led a double life.” She also claims to have delivered drugs to Webb at school at least twice and alleged that Webb came home to do drugs at lunch. Aisevbonaye said. “They perceived me as a joke, just a disgruntled girlfriend.”

    • “I never heard about him being involved in drugs,” former Principal Bob Gary said in a later interview. Nor did South Shore secretary Rosa Travai recall Aisevbonaye making those assertions in 1988.

    • By 1990, the school district was aware of Webb’s growing criminal history. The district revealed that a co-worker named Gordon Curvey had brought a laundry list of accusations about Webb to school officials. His allegations led the personnel department to revisit Webb’s 1985 job application; the criminal-history section was blank.

    • Curvey himself was fired, in part, for not mentioning a felony conviction on HIS application.

    • Webb continued to end up in the King County Jail. He was back in November 1992, August 1993, February 1994, November 1994, April 1995 and June 1995 for various violations. As of April 1995, Webb had accumulated 22 Seattle Municipal Court violations.

    • Webb did at least one stint in jail while a Seattle Schools employee—collecting sick leave pay for 20 and perhaps more than 30 days!

    • Seattle Schools spokesperson Dorothy Dubia said the district was investigating who approved the sick-leave claims and why supervisors didn’t question Webb’s lengthy absencees.

    • 1985 – Webb was convicted of statutory rape of a 14-year-old student, winning his 11th trip to jail.

    • Girls later said that they were wary of Webb, who put his arms around them and gawked at them.

    • After his last high-profile arrest, the district hired private investigator Robert Heyn and issued a gag order on employees who hired or supervised Webb. If memory serves me correctly, he had been hired by his brother-in-law, a former principal named Robert Gary. And I THINK this is the same Robert Gary who worked with Al Jones at Garfield High School back in 1970. (Scroll up to see his name again.)

    • Attorney Tim Healy said the girl’s mother felt they’d been violated by the school district’s negligence. No kidding.

    • A custodian once told me that he was furious when the Seattle media represented Webb as a custodian. They apparently thought that would do less damage to public relations than letting the public know that he worked directly with kids. In fact, I’ve been told that Webb’s last position was supervising a girl’s locker room. Now who do you suppose might have arranged that???

    Reference: “School-district employee’s long criminal past,” Diedtra Henderson and Jolayne Houtz, Seattle Times, August 20, 1995″

  15. 17

    Puddybud spews:

    PRR: Now those are role models. Thanks for the laugh!!!! Where in tarnation did you find these stalwart specimens of Seattle citizenry?

  16. 18

    Puddybud spews:

    Rugrat602: We are waiting for the standard inane “My my the trolls are out in force today.” commentary.

  17. 19

    prr spews:

    Puddy,

    It’s very easy go to Yahoo and type in Seattle Public schools + arrest.

    There are hundreds of links.

    On that note, maybe we are over funding the Seattle Public School system, or at least their defense/settlement fund.

  18. 20

    Curtis Love spews:

    prr @ 11
    I don’t know what you’ve been saying, but that’s certainly NOT what I am saying.

    I kinda don’t get this. The thread seems to have been hijacked by Richard Pope. Are our residents wingers objecting to using $10 million of our suplus for schools? Seattle is closing schools and eliminating programs due to a budget deficit. Do y’all object to this use for the money? To what other use woudl you put it? I tend to think that education is important.

  19. 21

    Curtis Love spews:

    Richard @ 1

    What makes you think Bellevue shools are “better?” Can you point to some objective measure of this?

  20. 22

    Janet S spews:

    You can put the $10 million into the schools, but it will just disappear. There will be no difference in education.

    Success in education is almost completely predictable by looking at demographics. Show me rich parents, and I’ll show you a successful school. Seattle’s poor neighborhoods won’t benefit from the extra money, but they won’t be the worse of, either. So, sure, throw the money down that particular rat hole.

  21. 23

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    Curtis Love @ 21

    “What makes you think Bellevue shools are “better?” Can you point to some objective measure of this?”

    How about 2004-2005 WASL scores? (I apologize if the columns don’t line up)

    Bellevue:

    http://tinyurl.com/ckkec

    Grade Level Reading Math Writing Science
    4th Grade 87.4% 74.4% 74.0%
    5th Grade 58.5%
    7th Grade 84.3% 72.9% 78.3%
    8th Grade 59.3%
    10th Grade 86.9% 72.0% 80.0% 62.8%

    Seattle:
    http://tinyurl.com/aca3b

    Grade Level Reading Math Writing Science
    4th Grade 77.1% 59.3% 57.4%
    5th Grade 37.0%
    7th Grade 63.2% 47.0% 57.6%
    8th Grade 31.6%
    10th Grade 66.4% 40.6% 54.3% 32.2%

  22. 24

    Goldy spews:

    Actually, prr @4 almost has part of the answer to Richard’s question… though in a means-spirited sort of way.

    While not necessarily accepting the Richard’s assumptions that the Bellevue schools are better, and that they spend less per student (show me the data), it is in fact more expensive to educate students in Seattle, because we have more students with special needs. For example, my daughter’s school, Graham Hill Elementary, serves an Asian and African immigrant community and thus has a large number of ESL students who must receive extra instruction to get them up to speed with English. And over half the students qualify for free or reduced lunch. (And I’m not even going to mention the extremely expensive program in the schools for a handful of autistic students.)

    It simply costs more to educate poor children.

    And… I would also like to make the point that the dollar per student figures simply don’t tell the whole story. Remember, the state financing system limits the amount of money local school districts can raise via excess levies to a fixed percentage the total federal and state funds they get. So the way schools in wealthier communities get around this is through private fundraising from the families, which in some cases can offset a huge percentage of the operating budget, and is often used to pay the salaries of additional teachers. This is true within school districts as well as between them. Graham Hill has an operating budget of a little over $1 million, and the PTA raises about $50,000 a year… not bad for a Southend school. But some of the “best” schools in Seattle raise hundreds of thousands of dollars from parents… the same is true in Mercer Island, Bellevue and elsewhere.

    So Richard’s numbers, whatever they are, don’t truely reflect what is being spent per student.

    All that said, the issue is much more complicated than money.

  23. 25

    Puddybud spews:

    Curtis: I live in Snohomish County. I watch as the Marysville and Snohomish school districts go through their every two year struggle to aquire new levy funds. I have no problem with the $10MM going to the school district. But from what I see in the Seattle Slimes as articles and editorials and Head-up-de-Ass Lucite write here on animal hind parts representing Seattle School District Teacher thought, the $10MM will go into a large black hole. The Prosecution rests.

  24. 26

    For the Clueless spews:

    The cavalcade of knee-jerk fascists and reactionaries continues to carreen off the road – the election contest, Katrina, Frist, DeLay, Safavian, Abramoff and soon Rove. Before Rossi they championed the most disastrous candidates for state-wide office like Craswell, Carlson, George “Term Limits” Nethercutt and Will Baker. Thank God Rossi the stealth Rovian candidate, the creature of the BIAW was edged out.

    I send my two kids to a Seattle Public School. They are having the educational experience that I wish I had in a private Catholic school. They are learning so much more about the world around them than I did sitting hours a day in uncomfortable desks working through dry textbooks.

    As a parent I could give a flying **** about test scores. They are of the most minor importance to me. I want my kids to be EDUCATED about the real world not TRAINED to take tests.

    Fascists you may now return to your crumbling worldview.

  25. 27

    Janet S spews:

    Goldy – yes, it does cost more to educate a poor student than a rich one, and the high income neighborhoods subsidize the daylights out of their schools.

    But if the parents don’t care about educating their children, no amount of money will matter. There’s reason why Asian kids are getting admitted to college at very high numbers. Their parents are fanantical about school. The other key? Having a father in the house. The $10 million won’t make a difference if the student doesn’t show up for school.

  26. 28

    Mark spews:

    Clueless @ 26: “I want my kids to be EDUCATED about the real world not TRAINED to take tests.”

    You mean INDOCTRINATED in RE-EDUCATION centers, where the worldview is only from the hard Left?

    By saying “trained to take tests,” you show why people like you are part of the reason why schools fail to educate kids. You have no clue about what really goes on and you probably take little or no interest in what goes on for your child at school. [Or are you childless and just spewing talking points?]

    IF you even have a child, do you help them with homework EVERY night? Do you keep an eye on their long-term projects? Do you take the time to explain — OUTSIDE of school topics — everything from what makes up clouds to the three branches of US government? If you’re not as well-educated, do you at least teach kids about what you DO know? THAT is how kids succeed.

  27. 29

    Mark1 spews:

    Off the topic, but no thread to post on……

    Well, well, I see the Wa. State GOP today officially endorses I-912. Haha. Guess you’re lil ‘Where’s Rossi?’ vigil was a useless crapshoot as usual. What are you going to do now?! Smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em! Hardy-har-har!

  28. 30

    prr spews:

    Bottom line?

    You want your kids to be educated and successful people?

    Make sure they are surrounded by educated and successful people and they will follow the lead.

  29. 31

    righton spews:

    Doesn’t it cost a lot for the banana and condom demonstrations?

    and semi related, what happened to Reese LIndquist; didn’t he run the schools or something, then flame out in a sex scandal?

  30. 32

    For the Clueless spews:

    Mark – you don’t know what you’re talking about. You know nothing about me, my involvement with my kids’ education. Nothing about the school my kids attend or the teachers in it.

    NOTHING!

    Indoctrinated? Another knee-jerk right-wing epithet. Did spewing it make you feel good?

    The greatest tragedy that can befall education in this country is making test scores the linchpin. Like a vampire, it sucks the life out of education. All the “cram schools” in Japan testify to the bankruptcy of this. As if public education wasn’t in enough trouble with the miserly funding due to the whack job of a tax system in this state, NCLB is like throwing an anvil as a life preserver.

    Again, you’re a glib, smug bastard – a lot of heat and no light. High hat, no cattle.

  31. 33

    Curtis Love spews:

    Puddybud @ 25
    I tried to make sense of what you said. This is what I came up with:
    “from what I see in the Seattle Slimes…representing Seattle School District Teacher thought, the $10MM will go into a large black hole.
    I don’t understand to what you are referring, but it does seem that you think little of teachers. Why are the thoughts of the teachers of such concern to you? Perhaps you should follow the District or the School board to find out what THEY think, snce they set the policy that the teachers then carry out.

    BTW, you do know that the Seattle Times is by and large a conservative paper, don’t you?

  32. 34

    righton spews:

    Seattle times is conservative only to a certain few in Fremont, Wallingford and Capitol Hill. To the rest of us, its pretty darn liberal.

    What conservative column offsets the Local sections daily blast of Westneat and Brodeur?

  33. 36

    prr spews:

    @33

    The money should be spent by creating a new Governemnet Agency who will decide what to do with the money.

    I think that holding some tax funded focus groups would be a good start to establsih what the agency should “feel” like.

  34. 38

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Good clueless, you keep your kids in failing public schools where dropout is the norm, low graduation and college advancement numbers are an embarassment. I can only imagine the lessons they are learning about the “world around them”, what I wonder is what KNOWLEDGE they are getting to succeed in that real world… oh wait, they are learning to take the WASL as a cover for the pitiful state of the schools… notice I said TAKE the WASL not SUCCEED with it! Yep, that’ll make them successful in college, in the .

    Give me a break.

    I’ll keep mine in, horror of horrors, a CATHOLIC SCHOOL where expectations are high and achievement is the norm, where over 95% of the population go on to college, where international students are EXPECTED to learn and use the language of the country they are in, and where our tuition dollars and our fundraising dollars are accountable to the PARENTS, not the NEA, not the state and where WE CAN SEE THE RESULTS of our dollars in every discussion with a student, a teacher, when we walk in the door.

    You know, our oldest child (the one waiting for the Bar results) said one time that Affirmative Action in college and law school was the greatest thing since canned soup… it gave spaces in school to kids that didn’t have the educational backround/credentials to deserve them and as soon as they turned in a paper or a brief, as soon as they opened their mouths in class they immediately made those that earned those spots look like geniuses compared to them.

    So keep pissing away money to contiue failing schools… it acts just like that affirmative action our child hailed… and it keeps union thugs and piss poor adminstration in 6 figure salaries.

    PS: Don’t forget to thank a private school parent for their contribution (involuntary, though it may be) to YOUR kids education and YOUR failing schools.

  35. 39

    righton spews:

    Goldy; this surplus should help in your lawsuit; they had the money and didn’t even use it to fix the viaduct…

  36. 40

    Mark1 spews:

    Off the topic, but no new thread to post on:

    Well, well, I see today that the Wa. State GOP decided to officially endorse I-912. The lil ‘Where’s Rossi?’ vigil seems like a crapshoot at present, and it was. What are you going to do now?! Hardy-har-har.

  37. 41

    Another Lawyer spews:

    Clueless @ 26
    isn’t it that you could NOT give a flying **** about test scores? The flying **** represents the scintilla of care, and you can’t even muster that amount for test scores, right? I mean it’s all well and good to throw around idiomatic phrases, but words DO have meaning; some nun should’ve smacked you with the ruler over that one.

    I agree, though, the testing craze isn’t about education, it’s about rationalizing the RIGHTIST FATHEAD’S butchering of what we used to agree was a government priority and fiscal responsibility: educating the kids. Obviously the posters here can’t agree on whether the world is flat or round, but I’m clinging to the proposition that education benefits society as a whole and should be encouraged and funded by us all and not as a user fee for parents only. Maybe I’m old fashioned – you know – in that way that “conservative” used to mean…

    I spent Monday afternoon at a Mercer Island elementary school where my kid was involved in some protracted fundraising exercise-a-thon. I chatted with a fellow father, coincidentally a classmate of mine at Snooty Private East Coast Liberal Arts (small L-iberal, mind you) College, about the machinations we and others go through to have our kids in a “good” school district. We help our kids with homework every day, we share with them what we know about clouds and government, and we take time off work for the ritualized begging that our underfunded school district asks of us.

    Sorry, Goldy, money for schools? What the hell are you thinking?

  38. 42

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    spent Monday afternoon at a Mercer Island elementary school where my kid was involved in some protracted fundraising exercise-a-thon. I chatted with a fellow father, coincidentally a classmate of mine at Snooty Private East Coast Liberal Arts (small L-iberal, mind you) College, about the machinations we and others go through to have our kids in a “good” school district. We help our kids with homework every day, we share with them what we know about clouds and government, and we take time off work for the ritualized begging that our underfunded school district asks of us.-Comment by Another Lawyer— 9/29/05 @ 9:45 am

    Gosh, could you sound more resentful about something that benefits YOUR child??

    Oh I forgot.. liberal mentality: expect to be given everything, take, take, take, and be indignant when something is expected in return.

    Congratulations! I do believe you are the newest poster child for the ugly truth about liberals.

  39. 44

    righton spews:

    Mercer Island schools aren’t underfunded. Its just you guys get snookered and end up raising money just like the private schools. MI famous for indulgent parents, snotty nosed kids, smart kids, and lots of money for its school district. The fact you volunteer to spend more is good/your problem.

  40. 45

    For the Clueless spews:

    ASS you are a sorry soul, so mean-spirited. Attitudes of hatred and intolerance are bred in families and pass from parents to children. This is clearly evident in your case.

    In the publicly supported alternative school my kids attend, the WASL is required but not emphasized. The teachers refuse to “teach to the test” which is a prescription for a terrible education.

    Thank you for your contribution to the very successful public elementary school my kids attend that is worlds away from the brutal, violent environment of the Catholic school I attended in my youth.

    You may now return to cheerleading for the criminal money-launderer Tom DeLay and the insider-trader Bill Frist. Remember the “nukular” option? Remember “Bring it on”?

  41. 46

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Oh righton, you just don’t get it… ALL public schools are underfunded… they could be give 10 million EACH and still “be underfunded” because “underfunded” takes the blame for failing schools OFF those in charge, the teachers, the NEA, the state and the piss poor administrators, and puts it on sucker citizens, aka, liberals.

  42. 47

    Curtis Love spews:

    Ass @ 36

    So your kid is in a private school? And you consider public schools to be where “dropout is the norm, low graduation and college advancement numbers are an embarassment?”

    To some extent that is true. And one reason is that in Seattle, an extraordiarily high percentage of students are in private school.

    According to the Seattle Weekly:
    “The school district estimates that only 68 percent of school-age children in Seattle attend public school. “If we were an average U.S. district,” says schools Finance Director Steve Nielsen, “we would have 90 percent market share.” Among big cities, he says, the average figure is around 80 percent. That leaves a share of poor students in Seattle’s public system that is inconsistent with the actual demographics of one of America’s most affluent cities…Former School Board member Don Nielsen says that if all the city’s private school students went to public school instead, “the district would not have a financial problem.” He reasons that middle- and upper-class kids are “profit centers.” The district spends less money to educate them than it receives in per-pupil funding. The surplus, according to a weighted formula, is spent on low-income students and others with special needs. The additional money goes toward lower class sizes, classroom aides, tutors, and other special services…So the district is spending more money on poor students and it doesn’t have enough affluent ones to offset the costs. “If we had a different mix of students, if we had more students not requiring special services—your average Leave It to Beaver kind of kid—-then those children would indeed help us diffuse the cost of the other students,” acknowledges Finance Director Nielsen.”

    Pulling better-off kids out of public schools and leaving poorer ones in is NOT the way to riase public school achievement, and at the same time it des NOT mean that you should stop funding public schools. Any student who needs an education should get one. That includes poor kids and special-needs kids (Seattle has more than its sharte).

  43. 48

    righton spews:

    Curtis;
    Lets open Pioneer Camps so no kids get special summer experiences, lets close Canlis and make everyone eat the same food.

    Sorry, I’m parent first, not socialist first.

  44. 49

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Sorry sweet cheeks – we educate special needs children and we also educate international students that come to us withno English skills. But we also don’t put up with/teach PC bullshit, or the theory of ‘fragile little minds’ and more fragile little egos. We have rules, standards, dress codes THAT ARE EXPECTED TO BE FOLLOWED, and quite frankly all 3 are getting tougher each year rather than more relaxed AND … surprise!… our students are living UP to them!

    Pulling better-off kids out of public schools and leaving poorer ones in is NOT the way to riase public school achievement, and at the same time it des NOT mean that you should stop funding public schools. Any student who needs an education should get one. That includes poor kids and special-needs kids (Seattle has more than its sharte). -Comment by Curtis Love— 9/29/05 @ 10:02 am

    Pulling kids out of FAILING public school sends the message to those responsible for that failure, the teachers, the NEA, the state and those piss poor administrators that folks aren’t going to tolerate FAILURE.

    You are absolutely right, kids do deserve the best education possible. But, kids today are in absolutely no way vastly different from when I was a child or when my parents were children. When my Mother started kindergarten way back in the 30’s, back when legal immigration was exploding, she didn’t read, write or speak a word of English… but she was taught in English and she was EXPECTED learn English. The educational expectations of today are so incredibly dumbed down to the lowest common denominator it should be offensive to every parent that wants success for their child. We are constantly hearing that public school kids have to take remedial classes in college to actually begin college level calsses. Todays college education is little more than the high school education my generation experienced – and yes, I went to a public high school… one before the feds got involved, one where the community and the parents decided what it’s goals and expectations were, NOT the damned union thugs and one where solid academics was JOB ONE… not “esteem”, not political correctness, or environmentalism or any of the other distraction that have left academics to be a side effect of school.

    You know this has been making the rounds of the net for a while, but it is the perfect example of how far our public schools have fallen, how low expectations of students has fallen, how dumbed down public schools have condemned YOUR children to be. I would be curious how many public high school kids could complete this test successfully.

  45. 51

    Heath spews:

    Somewhat off-topic: Looks powers-that-be are working against moving airlines to Boeing Field:

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.....est29.html

    Will Ris is the American Airlines VP for government affairs.

    Currently, American Airlines’ affairs are as follows:
    – Would rather not move to Boeing Field
    – Will be forced to consider moving if another airline does
    – Can’t afford a terminal
    – Would “have to ask” the Federal Government to build a terminal for American and “everyone else.”

    All of this was predicated on “if Boeing Field opens up.”

    (All quotes lifted from the article are attributed to Will Ris, the VP of govt. affairs for American Airlines.)

    The other day I spoke with an insider who was wondering how the two major airports could operate heavy commercial traffic during the day. Already, Boeing Field is busy at night with shipping traffic and during the day serves General Aviation and Boeing’s facility there.

    The two airports have a coordinated takeoff and landing system, because the runways are so near each other. This implied that adding airlines to Boeing Field would have an impact on SeaTac traffic.

    All I can add is, yeah: if Boeing Field opens up. Hopefully that’s a big “if.”

  46. 52

    Puddybud spews:

    Curtis Love: If the Seattle School District is represented by the Head-up-de-ass Lucite types as Seattle teachers or those teachers in West Seattle who did the dis-de-military skit, then yes, these are the problem teachers who try and push their political agenda on the young’ins when they should be teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic.

  47. 53

    righton spews:

    Heath; maybe you should have voted Richard Pope for port…all this cuz Port inflated the costs of operating at Sea Tac

  48. 54

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 43

    ‘Pulling better-off kids out of public schools and leaving poorer ones in is NOT the way to riase public school achievement…’

    Point taken. But any parent who can get their children out of public schools is negligent not to do so. This trend will accelerate as parents of even modest means realize that kids can get much more education at a higher quality level outside the public system.

    ‘Any student who needs an education should get one.’

    Agreed, although I would supplment with ‘..who needs AND WANTS…’. The question is how best to provide that education, what amount and quality is “good enough”, and how much should it cost. The public schools in this country have declined in their ability to address any of these items, and will only get worse as the “public” determines they can do better elsewhere.

  49. 55

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    damned cheap ASS filter: Curtis look for my answer somewhere around #44… when (if) it shows up.

  50. 56

    Steve spews:

    Dollars per student in state funding are far from the only relevant factor. Seattle has a higher than average proportion of “special needs” students and some of those “special needs” are really special. A friend teaches some severely mentally disabled students in a Seattle school and they require such intensive supervision that his “class” can have only a few students. In Mercer Island, in contrast, where my kids attend school, the students’ socioeconomic background and family support are such that students’ performance is going to be high regardless of the level of school funding and regardless of the quality of teaching. And in Mercer Island (as well as Bellevue and others) there is a very large amount of off-budget financial support contributed to the public schools through school foundations and direct fundraising by individual schools, and this off-budget financing pays for counselors, curriculum, science materials, musical instruments, teachers’ aides, and sometimes even extra teachers. These are facts and “liberalism” has nothing to do with any of this; why do some nitwits have to inject conservative rhetoric into the discussion?

  51. 57

    righton spews:

    Steve, ok, ignoring debate about teaching the severely retarded…

    Why does Seattle have more retarded kids than Mercer Island? Begs I guess for joke about McDermott, the water in Fremont, marijuana odors drifting into the prenatal units…

  52. 58

    Curtis Love spews:

    No Wonder @ 48

    You confuse achievement scores with quality. Get the best teachers in the state and equip them as well as the famous Bellevue teaching prodigies, then give them disproportionately poor children of poorly educated parents, high percentages of special-needs children (see below), and as a result: really good teaching will be going on, and if your child were there they would be well educated, but the district scores may not reflect the quality of the educational experience.

    Re: special needs kids…
    From the Seattle Times: “Nearly 6,000 of the Seattle district’s 46,500 students have a diagnosed learning, emotional or physical disability that entitles them to extra services or accommodations under the federal Individuals with Disabilities Education Act…While the total number of special-education students in Seattle’s public schools hasn’t changed much, the number of those who are the most expensive to educate has skyrocketed. [for example] Since 1998, the district has seen its enrollment of kids with autism…grow annually by an average of 21 percent…

    Random stats (from the Holy of Holies, the Bellevue School District:
    – Washington is in the bottom half of the nation in per-student spending.
    – Our [Washington state’s] national ranking in teacher salaries is 19th.
    – Class sizes in Washington are the 4th highest in the country.

  53. 60

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    It amazes me that it is more important to these people to continue defend a failing system rather than scream, shout and DEMAND what is best FOR THEIR OWN CHILDREN.

    What a mind set.

  54. 61

    Curtis Love spews:

    Steve @ 50

    They inject conservative rhetoric because they don’t want to be seen saying “I don’t give a damn about poor or disabled kids”. Blaming “liberals” keeps their hands cleaner.

  55. 62

    righton spews:

    How can you be proud; go read up on early socialists, more impt to build the community…

    I’d buy into that if the instructions weren’t antithetical to our moral and political views

  56. 63

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 54

    It’s not a failing system. It’s a very stressed and challenged system, but it works remarkably well considering those challenges.

    BTW, I like to think about what would be best for EVERYONE’S children. And I don’t think the answer is defiunding public education.

  57. 64

    For the Clueless spews:

    The flying **** represents the scintilla of care, and you can’t even muster that amount for test scores, right? I mean it’s all well and good to throw around idiomatic phrases, but words DO have meaning; some nun should’ve smacked you with the ruler over that one.

    I forgive you, you’re an attorney – the law, like baseball and golf, being a game of inches.

    The “scintilla of care” of course starts with the parents. As an interested concerned parent, I can tell if my kids aren’t on track. I haven’t yet had any reason to worry. My oldest started reading when he was three and he’s not by any means a genius – something just clicked when he watched Sesame street – that’s the best theory we can come up with. My youngest is now reading on pretty much the same schedule I did – the latter part of first grade but I wouldn’t care if it was much, much later. I don’t want my kids brutalized into learning like I was.

    I was smacked a few times in Catholic school both in the classroom and the schoolyard. I did well in school but I was motivated primarily by fear. I would think the situation has improved a lot since the sixties but I don’t really care. I’m satified with the PUBLIC schools in my area and I’m ready to jump in with any extra help my kids might need.

    The WASL is way over the top – at least two weeks of testing, 4 hours a day – a lot of time away from the classroom. This is highly disruptive to the educational approach in my kids’ alternative school. I resent the time being taken from my kids’ education for little if any benefit.

  58. 66

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 52

    ‘You confuse achievement scores with quality.’

    No, I do not. Although having no measure of achievement has allowed the system to lower the bar to the point of critical mass. The powers in charge, as well as the teachers/unions want no reasonable and consistent measure of education effectiveness.

    ‘…really good teaching will be going on, and if your child were there they would be well educated,…’

    Good teaching is actually quite rare these days. The education of teachers has also been dumbed down substantially. More importantly, just having a child in the presence of a “good” teacher does not mean the education will be good. The more distractions, class behavioral issues and attention to “special needs” that occurs the worse it is for any students learning. That is without getting into other dilutive factors related to teaching, or at least spending class time on the latest fads and PC garbage that edge out needed learning.

    ‘- Washington is in the bottom half of the nation in per-student spending.’

    These numbers are always suspect unless one knows what all is included. The last place I would look to for reliable figures is a party that wants to justify higher spending.

    ‘- Our [Washington state’s] national ranking in teacher salaries is 19th.’

    Considering the size of WA, as well as our cost of living as compared to the highest 18, one can see that teachers here do very well. There are many resources that provide teacher salaries by district, and most common folk would be shocked at how much salary and benefits teachers make.

    “- Class sizes in Washington are the 4th highest in the country.”

    Another deceptive statistic that also brings up issues related to how the money is spent here, and how little of that makes it to the classroom. First, there is now an average of 1-2 class assistants in addition to a teacher in most of the WA districts. Even more deceptive is the implication that the classes need to be that large because of financial issues. The fact is that there is one paid teacher for every 9-10 students in WA, and that does not include the extra assistants. (Take the number of employed and paid teachers and divide by the number of students.) This shows that about half the teachers are doing something besides teaching.

  59. 67

    prr spews:

    Cutis @ 43,

    So let me get this straight.

    You are saying that if we brought in more kids into the public schools that the results would be better?

    Good luck pal, we would just have more kids that are sacrificng a chance at success by being stuck in institutions that fail them.

    Quite Frankly adding fresh apples on top of rotten ones is not the answer.

  60. 68

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 56

    ‘BTW, I like to think about what would be best for EVERYONE’S children.’

    That is a noble, egalitarian, yet impractical goal. What has happened over time is that “equal” education has necessarily become watered down. The lowering of the bar to equalize education has reduced the overall effectiveness, especially for average and above-average students. I will grant that the “special needs” kids are getting better educational opportunities as a results, yet the main populice is severely underserved as a result.

  61. 69

    Curtis Love spews:

    prr @ 60

    Actually, it was School District Finance Director Nielsen who was saying, I believe, that if more middle- and upper-class kids were in the Seattle School District that their per-student costs could or would be lowered. It is not a matter of belief, it is plain to see from the demographic data to which he referred. Does that mean better outcomes? I don’t know, but for thsoe of you who are crying over high per-student costs, that’s the reason and the way out.

    Again, Seattle Schools are not failing, as far as I can tell. Here is my belief, but I have never yet seen a study on this: If you were to compare only comparable demographics in differenign school districts, weighted for family income, family educational attainment, English proficiency, disabilities, etc., I believe that SSD students would do as well as those most anywhere.

  62. 70

    Curtis Love spews:

    NoWonder @ 61

    I don’t agree. I think instead that the presence of so many disabled kids, ESL kids, and so on in the system skews the measurement of overall achievement levels such that they do not reflect accurately the educational experience that, for example, a white, English-speaking, normally cognitive child might receive.

    And I also think that the oft-repeated mantra of “failing schools” is a myth that reflects intstead our nation’s changing demographics, increased immigration (higher than at any time since the late 19th century, as I understand it), and federal mandates to support disabled kids who would have been institutionalized or not allowed in public schools in earlier times.

  63. 71

    Mr. X spews:

    To all of the right-wing assholes here today who hate public education –

    It is an indisputable fact that poor kids cost more to educate than well-off ones – and it is also an indisputable fact that a vast majority of the kids in the SSD come from the poorer neighborhoods in the South End of the city. How many languages do new immigrant students in Bellevue or Bothell speak compared to Seattle? How many special needs kids are there per capita compared to Seattle? And how much additional private money goes toward those Eastside schools because parents have the resources to pony up (and note, this phenomena exists within the Seattle School District – northend parents ensure that their schools are far better equipped with basic supplies than those in the southend)?

    Resources matter. Your hatred of government in all of its forms is unseemly in what was once a democracy – go privatize (oops – I meant FUCK!) yourselves.

    BTW – I’m not necessarily in favor of the Pelz proposal – as funding the SSD is not the role of City Government. That said, however, our schools are underfunded on a per student basis (and, yes, I staunchly opposed the new HQ
    for the SSD, and have testified at numerous hearings against many of their capital building proposals. I just don’t support cutting off students’ noses to spite the School Board and Administration’s face).

  64. 72

    Richard Pope spews:

    One of the major problems in Seattle is that its one-party government literally flushes millions of tax dollars down the toilet.

    Back in 2003, the City of Seattle signed a 10 year lease for five automatic single stall public toilets. This is costing a whopping $600,000 per year just to lease the five toilets, plus maintenance and other expenses.

    Can you imagine spending $10,000 per month per toilet just to lease a single place to sit? Only if you are a liberal …

    http://archives.seattletimes.n.....ars+public

  65. 73

    For the Clueless spews:

    No Wonder answers “deceptive” statistics that are sourced with deceptive statistics of his own which are unsourced. It’s NoWonder of course, since he’s been excusing the inexcusable for as long as he’s been commenting here.

    The teachers in my kid’s PUBLIC school have been there for years. They are very good teachers. Newer teachers there who don’t pull their weight do not feel very comfortable because of the high level of parental involvement and the high standards set by the old guard. In almost all cases they fall away after a while. The good teachers are paid decently but by no means are they overpaid. But again, they have been doing what they’ve been doing for many years.

    I don’t in the least resent their pay and I hold in contempt anyone who would.

  66. 75

    s-choir spews:

    If the government bought the food from farmers and sold the nutricious food to the students at or below cost, the farmers( like the people in Eastern WA who get all that farmers’ welfare from the govt.) would at least be doing something to earn their farmers’welfare.

    Win/Win!!! The welfare farmers get workfare and the kids get good food!

    NAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH! Let’s bring in McDonald’s and make the kids eat poison.

  67. 76

    Curtis Love spews:

    Bulletin from the ‘failing schools’

    From those crooks and liars we all know and love at the Seattle School District.

    – Average scores for elementary and middle school students on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills (ITBS) and for high school students on the Iowa Test of Educational Development (ITED) are above the national average in Reading, Language and Mathematics.
    – Performance on the Washington Assessment of Student Learning (WASL), a challenging performance assessment mandated by the State Legislature for all students in grades 4, 7 and 10, continues to climb. In 2004, fourth grade scores improved in Mathematics and Reading when compared to 2003, seventh grade scores improved in the three subject areas tested (Reading, Mathematics, and Writing), and tenth grade showed gains in all four tested subject areas (Reading, Mathematics, Writing, and Science). The percentage of both seventh and tenth graders meeting standards in writing has increased every year since 2000.
    – District SAT scores for high school students are above both Washington State and national averages in both Verbal and Math sections of the test in 2004. Seattle’s 2004 Math and Verbal SAT scores are 17 and 23 points, respectively, above the national average. Since 1996, SAT math scores have increased 17 points and verbal scores have increased 12 points.
    – The high school expulsion rate in 2003-2004 is the lowest in nineteen years, while the middle school expulsion rate in 2003-2004 is the lowest since 1989-1990 (14 years).

    and here’s an interestig one:
    – Annual dropout rates for high school rose from 10.3 percent in 2002-2003 to 14.2 percent in 2003-2004. Much of this increase was attributable to significant increases in dropouts from three high school alternative programs specifically designed to get dropouts from prior years back on track toward graduation.

    So they start a program to get earlier dropouts back into school and graduated. Because this is a population with a REALLY high chance of dropping out again (for a variety of reasosn–children, jobs, drug use, whatever), they drop out again in high nibers. This makes the overall school dropout rate go up, whihc looks bad for SSD. But given the choice of leaving these kids behind completely or taking a temporary hit in their stats that can be used as a club by the right wing anti-public-school extremists (you know who you are), they did what any educator should do: they rolled the dice on some of these kids graduating. And some will. Kudos to SSD.

  68. 77

    Matt spews:

    Take taxpayer’s money for a city and then divert it to schools? Whoa! Besides being illegal it’s not a good idea.

    If schools are in need (and I think they are), ask the voters for more on a levy and let the school district handle it. There’s a batch of elected officials that are expressly elected for that purpose.

    The city could partner with the schools and run a double vote. “Hey, we’re asking the public if you want to lower your city tax rate the exact same amount as the school raises there’s. They’re in larger need.”

    Bet the voters would go for that. It worked in Pasco very well.

  69. 80

    NoWonder spews:

    Clueless @ 66

    ‘No Wonder answers “deceptive” statistics that are sourced with deceptive statistics of his own’

    It takes very little effort to find the statistics provided by WA regarding number of students, teachers and aids employed. If you think my numbers are incorrect I would be happy to provide some cites later this evening.

    ‘…been excusing the inexcusable…’

    On this topic that is surely the pot calling the kettle black.

    ‘They are very good teachers.’

    Good for you. If that was the case across the system, and your definition of “good” held up to scrutiny, then public schools would make better sense.

    ‘I don’t in the least resent their pay and I hold in contempt anyone who would.’

    That is your right. If you think they are earning at least what they are paid, go for it. I disagree, and think that when most people realize how much teachers get in salary and benefits for what is less than a full-time job, they disagree as well.

  70. 81

    Another Lawyer spews:

    Clue @ 57
    I think you misunderstand: I too believe school should be about learnin’ and not about the current testing Zeitgeist. My quibble is just a linguistic pet peeve. People often say they COULD care less (or give a flying asterisk) when the correct and only logical phrasing is that they couldn’t.

    Ass @ everywhere else
    As for being the new poster child for the liberal mentality; I’ll take that, but let’s be clear what the liberal mentality is: We live in a community; it’s got rich people in it and it’s got poor people in it. The decisions we make, as a community ought to be about what’s good for the community, but we find ourselves beleaguered by decisions made for the good of the rich individual, the corporation, the evangelist, you name it, but not to my way of thinking, for the good of the community.

    We live in a time of war and natural disaster, where is the national dialogue of sacrifice? It’s certainly not coming from the Right, and it never will. A family is a metaphor for a community; you sacrifice for your kids. I didn’t mean to sound resentful or indignant. If anything I misguidedly meant to be ironic. Can you say you didn’t mean to sound like a belittling, selfish, arrogant fuck?

  71. 82

    Dr. Quest spews:

    Most of us posting comments grew up in homes where there were books and magazines and a respect for learning. For many reasons a sizable number of students from the poorer sections of greater Seattle do not have families that are supportive of education. It is no mystery why this is so and I will not try to play on the heartstrings of radical Republicans who don’t have any.

  72. 84

    Dr. Quest spews:

    re giving back taxes: How would you know who to give it back to? Think before you splutter and rage!

  73. 86

    Puddybud spews:

    Mr X, I am so glad you added your two cents. Both sons are in public school. I am very interested in their grades and results as their father. Many of these city kids either don’t have a father or they have many fathers but no one gives them guidance. For the person who brought the up the Asian issue, it’s the same for many Eastern European and Asian countries. The force their kids to learn English to move forward in American society. It’s only the latinos who come here and DEMAND that we be bilingual. Am I being racist, hell no. I’m in LA right now. I have people in the US walk up to me and start speaking Spanish. I understand them but we being in America I tell them “No habla Espanol”. When I walked up to them in the Mexico City airport, I had to speak to them in Spanish.

    Regarding your speech about our heartstrings, all you have to do is condemn headless lucy and tell that useless piece of human trash to clean up his act. If head-up-de-ass is the epitome of Seattle School District Teachers and the Union or the West Seattle school and their anti-military screech, I’ll NOT be there supporting you. You see we have scruples, and there are some things not negotiable. Until then, you lefties have no clothes.

  74. 88

    K spews:

    Richard and Mr. C at the top-

    Cheap, easy and wrong. There are many differences between Seattle and Bellevue. Note that you are talking about Seattle Public Schools. Not those kids at Lakeside and the other private schools. Comparing Seattle and Bellevue, look at first the different income levels. Participation in school lunch programs (an indicator of income) is recognized to have an inverse relation to academic performance. There are many possible reasons for this, but I suggest one is with higher income, and more likely time available to participate in school activities, parental involvement increases. Parental participationm equals higher scores.

    Let’s look at another issue. Compare the average age of Seattle facilities to Bellevue facilities. I suspect Seattle’s are much older, and hence have higher operating costs.

    Let’s look at the number of languages spoken. While Bellevue has become more diverse, Seattle has a greater challenge here as well.

    Not as much fun as a cheap easy comment, but there are issues beyond cost per student.

  75. 89

    K spews:

    And Mr. C, whern I see your posts with LEFTIST PINHEADS in caps, I figurew you are posting for the fun of the response rather than in the interest of advancing the discussion.

    Too bad.

  76. 90

    middleoftheroader spews:

    NoWonder @66, 80,

    “Good teaching is actually quite rare these days. The education of teachers has also been dumbed down substantially. More importantly, just having a child in the presence of a “good” teacher does not mean the education will be good. The more distractions, class behavioral issues and attention to “special needs” that occurs the worse it is for any students learning. That is without getting into other dilutive factors related to teaching, or at least spending class time on the latest fads and PC garbage that edge out needed learning.”

    The most ambitious college students have little incentive to enter the classroom, despite the need for quality teachers. If first year associate lawyers can earn $135,000 (http://biz.yahoo.com/law/05092.....6f49d.html?.v=1), then why would the most qualified students persue a career in public education, especially when the average salary for a public school teacher (with years of experience) is less than half that?

    And, I hope you do not really believe that a public school teacher is not a full time job. Our classroom teachers put in time in the classroom, time grading, time preparing for class, and are required to participate in extracurricular activities, and often required to take continuing education courses. If you want to talk about the power of the teacher’s union – fine. If you want to discuss the virtues of specific components of curricula, sure. If you want to talk about what makes a quality teacher or the requirements desired to teach our children, I’m up for it. But to demean the teachers that put in long hours of time, energy, and emotion in our public schools is out of line.

  77. 91

    Dr. Quest spews:

    Let’s hire some schoolmarms for the radical rightists’ kids. Then they can order her not to date or marry and hound her endlessly about morals. If readin’, writin’, and some cipherin’ is what you want , that’s the ticket!

  78. 92

    righton spews:

    Libbies;
    Ignoring the school thing… why shouldn’t the money get refunded, say in lower sales tax? If the city can run on $X and they get a windfall, why do that have to spend that windfall?

    And then you all want to boost the spending, so next year any retreat in spending will be shouted down as “cuts”…

  79. 93

    righton spews:

    K; what’s wrong with sticking to English. Saves money, forces them to learn sooner, so good for them, good for country.

    Sure are a lot of Asians around here who learn it quick and send their kids to MIT…

  80. 95

    K spews:

    righton-
    If a child does not understand English, how do you propose they learn? How long do they sit confused?

    The primary language used should be English. Remedial courses should be offered to help those who lag, just as remedial math should be offered.

    That costs money.

  81. 96

    yearight spews:

    s-choir – ‘Does your windfall philosophy apply to oil companies?’

    If laws are passed requiring you to pay money to the oil companies, then yes, they should return excess revenues.

  82. 97

    Janet S spews:

    Sorry to burst anyone’s balloon, but Bellevue has a highly diverse population, with over 50 different languages spoken. The philosphy in the better Bellevue schools is 6 months of ESL, then back into the classroom. It is sink or swim. Funny thing – they swim, because they are fully capable of learning English. I suspect that Seattle isn’t as motivated to get the kids back in the mainstream.

    Bellevue school facilities are nothing to write home about. Fortunately, that is being remedied by a huge remodel effort. But the schools are not costing what they are in other parts of the state. The Seattle Times did a story about new high schools, and they were costing $60-70 million. Newport is being rebuilt for $38 million. We are building reasonable places to learn, not palaces that are a waste of money.

  83. 98

    Ben Schiendelman spews:

    Yearight: Because of a lack of non-oil options due to government funding of roads that require oil, most people are effectively required to pay money to the oil companies. Sure, it’s not direct taxation, but it’s a strong correlation. Look at countries with electric railway systems – their dependence on oil is much lower than ours, and it may be starting to hurt our economy quite a bit that we’ve stuck with oil-based transportation.

  84. 99

    righton spews:

    K; I propose they learn like most of our ancestors did; sink or swim.

    I thought you guys were all Darwinists… isn’t it good to end up with swimmers?

  85. 100

    righton spews:

    K; go ask my mexican gardener what he wants. In accented but good english he’ll say, “make the kid learn english, he’s not dumb”

  86. 101

    Larry the Urbanite spews:

    Heaven forbid that extra money should be put back into a public school system! Gasp! We need more guns and bombs! And police officers to protect us from, u know, people of color. Or other poor people. And of course they are poor becuz they are lazy, not becuz they didn’t get a good education. And, well, not having both parents at home is sinful, so the children of single parents should be punished for it.

    Compassionate conservatives my ass. That’s like “Clear Skies” or “Healthy Forests”. Calling a nice name does not make it so. Poor public education = more crime = more degradation of society. Pissing and moaning about how bad the system is or how we should cut funding to public schools does NOT fix anything. Let’s call the CC’s what they really are: Greedy, heartless, selfish bastards, who don’t give rat’s ass about anyone who is lower on the socioeconomic ladder than them. Ironic that many of the CC’s are religious folks, as most major religions say you should help others. And don’t give me that crap about “You gotta teach a man to fish…” That’s what education is, teaching people to make it in the world.

    So if u don’t believe in the bedrock values this country was founded on (free public education for all) why don’t you just leave or shut the f up.

    I believe in a society where we help the less fortunate. Ask yourself, do you? If so, what have you done lately to further that?

  87. 102

    righton spews:

    Larry; we never said more bombs, we said give it back, lower the 8.9%+ sales tax or whatever.

  88. 103

    righton spews:

    Larry, ok

    You got 34 kids in Central District, sitting in class today. Other than another teacher, what more would you spend money on that leads to them being smarter or more productive? They have food money, the bldg is warm, books are ample.

    I really don’t know what you spend money on that turns them smarter…

  89. 104

    Janet S spews:

    Having children before you are 21 + not finishing high school = a life of poverty. Having children out of wedlock = a life of poverty.

    People are responsible for their lives. Producing children without two parents is the fastest way to the bottom for both the parent and the child. Boys growing up without fathers are a threat to society.

    Maybe we should pay good teachers working in unfavorable conditions, like poor neighborhoods. But the teachers union won’t allow it. Get the union out of the way, and the schools that are struggling will have a chance.

  90. 105

    K spews:

    Righton- Social Darwinists tend to be conservatives. Darwinists who believe in evolutionary biology tend to be more liberal. Interesting, heh?

    Reread my initial post. I do believe the goal should be to get children in the Americal shcool system literate in English. The question is how to best do that. I am not familiar with either Seattle or Bellevue’s system, so I cannot criticize or defend either.

  91. 106

    K spews:

    And with my left-leaning bias for public education (supported trhough raising 3 children through the public school system, many years as the only male on the PTA board, and many hours in ths classroom), here’s what I think should be done with the surplus, at least initially….

    nothing

    Short term fluctuations in revenues occur. Develop and maintain reserves in good times. One forecasted surplus does not a windfall make. After a reserve is established, next look at paying down debt. Be ready for the next downturn. Then look at capital improvements which will DECREASE long term operating cocst. Think of insulating your water heater to cut energy costs. Finally, if an increase in revenues is sustained and not eaten up by increased fixed costs, look at whether to increase operating programs or decrease revenue (taxes). Then my good liberal vote will be for education.

  92. 107

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    The goal should be graduating educated student that can read, understand what they’ve read, effectively communicate what they understand and be able to write a decent paper about it. The goal should be that if they choose college, they are PREPARED for college.

    Our society depends on an educated citizenry.

    I do not buy the bullshit about “whaa whaa, classes are too big” Give me a break – my 6th grade class had 64 kids in it and we ALL learned because it was EXPECTED of us – by our families, by our teachers, by our communities.

    I don’t buy the bullshit that “pity the poor teacher, they have no resources” when the resource are made available today by tax money, by corporations such as Target, Office Depot and yes, by Walmart who contribute so much. I particularly don’t buy it when the public school spend 2-3x educating a child than the Catholic schools do and have much worse success rates and more discipline problems.

    And I don’t want to hear your damned whining about not being able to afford private school. Worthwhile things in life take sacrifice. Do you honestly believe every family in private school is a 6 figure income family or that they have a money tree growing out back. It’s damned hard to come up with $800/month for tuition, but we sacrifice goodies and vacations and Happy Meals and 6 packs and all the other crap whinersfritter their money away on…. and we still pay our school taxes for YOUT kids to boot. We have our priorities straight – our childrens futures – why don’t you?

    In addition EVERY SINGLE CATHOLIC SCHOOL has money available for those who want to attend buthave financial difficulties.

    I don’t buy the bullshit that kids are different today. Kids are kids are kids. The only thing different is what’s expected of them. There were disruptive kids when I was in school, there were disruptive kids when my parents were in school and there were disruptive kids when my kids were in school. The difference today is the parents make excuses for their brat behaving kids, drug them up and then blame the teachers who they have refused to allow to discipline their little darlings.
    The same goes for different learning styles and abilities – get a damned clue – kids are kids are kids.

  93. 108

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Mr. K–@89
    My Reference to LEFTIST PINHEADS is merely a way to highlight my strong belief that a LEFTIST agenda is clearly being advanced everytime we turn around and that those of you who blindly follow it haven’t really thought thru the consequences….hence Mr. K…you are a PINHEAD.
    LEFTIST PINHEAD is a whole lot more concise than a detailed explanation every time. It is what I truly believe. It is no joke.

  94. 109

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    And I don’t buy the bullshit about poverty either… are you actually trying to imply/say with a straight face that impoverished children of today are so much worse off than the kids during the depression? Not a chance.

  95. 110

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS
    Not every kid can go to private school. There aren’t anough private schools. If there were, we’d see some of them that are pretty shitty. Some private schools are pretty shitty now. Look at the Cleveland voucher program.

    And even I*F your libertarian dream came true, then the poorer (or the poorest of the poor) would be locked into ever more badly funded and deteriorating shools. The permanent underclass. Do you care about that?

  96. 111

    Curtis Love spews:

    Re: ESL

    I was not able to fiund BSD’s policy, but SSD’s is as follows:
    “It is the policy of the Seattle School Board to provide special instruction to students of limited English-speaking ability. This instruction shall be a transitional bilingual program with the goals to develop English language proficiency in identified students, to provide transitional bilingual assistance in content areas to ensure continued conceptual development, and to enhance the positive self-image of limited English-speaking students.”

    Transitional
    develop English proficiency
    provide transitional assistance

    Sounds like what you were talking about, except it is the hated SSD doing it, and not the holy Bellevue SD.

  97. 112

    yearight spews:

    Urbanite-So if u don’t believe in the bedrock values this country was founded on (free public education for all) why don’t you just leave

    Why don’t you just read the Constitution? Public education did not even begin until the 1900’s. How about a history lesson as well?

    That said, there is a need for publicly-funded education. The problem is that the current system is a failure in just about every measure, and especially as measured against other options that cost far less.

  98. 113

    spews:

    Pope-

    This is totally off-topic, but how about you take down your damned yard signs? You lost, buddy, and they’re an eye-sore!

  99. 114

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 109

    And I don’t buy the bullshit about poverty either… are you actually trying to imply/say with a straight face that impoverished children of today are so much worse off than the kids during the depression? Not a chance.

    The Great Depression was a long bu temporary economic dislocation that made many people poor for a while. Therefore many of those poor had NOT come from poor families, HAD previous education, and so on. In today’s much more propserous America, the poor tent to be the working poor, people with little education, two parents each working more than one job with little flexibility to take time off work for PTA or volunteering, little or no sick time (you cna lose your job if your kid gets sick), few skills up to the task of preparing a student for college.

    Point: it’s not the same. Get it?

  100. 115

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 110

    ‘…would be locked into ever more badly funded and deteriorating shools’

    The funding per student in public schools could increase two-fold if vouchers for $4k were available to those that wanted to leave. Sure, there would be fewer schools but they could be funded better than the educrats ever dreamed. That argument is a dead-ender.

  101. 116

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 110

    ‘Not every kid can go to private school. There aren’t anough private schools.’

    If there were more customers there would be more private schools and other options. One of the reasons many cannot attend private schools is because they are already paying for public schools, and the extra money is not easy to come by.

    ‘If there were, we’d see some of them that are pretty *****.’

    Customers are usually pretty good about buying elsewhere when they are not satisfied. The market will minimize the bad private schools. With public schools there is little or no option to do the same. If a private school is bad would you advocate increasing the funding?

    ‘Look at the Cleveland voucher program.’

    I have not studied this one much as it is still new. From what I have seen it appears that you get your information from the NEA. I suggest you broaden your sources.

  102. 117

    spews:

    righton @65:

    Funny- no libs ever ponder “could we give the money back to the people”?

    Nothing, nothing, could be more of a positive return to “the people” than improving support for schools.

  103. 118

    NoWonder spews:

    N in Seattle @ 117

    ‘Nothing, nothing, could be more of a positive return to “the people” than improving support for schools.’

    Interesting way to phrase – “improving support”, as opposed to improving the schools. There is a difference.

  104. 119

    NoWonder spews:

    In keeping with the topic of supporting public schools, ask the teachers where they prefer to have their children educated.

    http://washingtontimes.com/nat.....-5968r.htm

    As teachers are generally paid so little money, how can they afford to send their kids to private schools? Answer – they do care about the kids…their own.

  105. 120

    Janet S spews:

    Re: ESL

    Of course Bellevue has an ESL program, with the same goals. The Seattle School District employee who wrote that policy is good with words. What counts is whether the program in place can live up to the fancy words. I know Bellevue’s does, I’ve heard that Seattle’s does not.

  106. 121

    spews:

    So just like always we have 10-12 racist, fascist assholes ready to privatize everything.

    Listen…if EVERYBODY gets an adequate education there is no way ANYBODY would vote for the shitty candidates and proposals these Republican and fake Libertarian asshats put out.

    Starve city schools…keep ‘em stupid and pinned down in one spot where we can keep an eye on ‘em.

    THAT’s the REAL agenda. Fuckturds.

  107. 122

    For the Clueless spews:

    NoWonder @ 119

    It’s interesting that many SSD teachers and UW professors send their kids to our PUBLIC elementary school.

    Oh and thanks for sourcing some of your propaganda jihad – even if your source is the MOONIE TIMES.

  108. 123

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    rujax–@121
    I see you haven’t taken your Prozac again today.
    Are you building up your Emergency Preparedness Kit with all the stuff I like so when the BIG ONE hits, I can come and take it from you???
    I hope you will investigate the new wonder drug Puddy found for you called FUKITOL. I think it also comes in a suppository for fruits like you that love to take it up the ass!

  109. 124

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    rujax–Just a reminder
    Are you folks all as prepared for the BIG ONE as I am?
    LEFTIST PINHEADS are an important part of the food chain. In fact, they are a MAJOR part of my emergency preparedness plan.
    You see, my emergency kit consists of a small bottle of water. Now you might consider that totally unprepared but………
    I also have plenty of guns and ammo. I only have the bottle of water in case I get thirsty on my way over to rujax’s house to take all his preparedness shit!!! LEFTIST PINHEADS are the absolute best source of food when the big one hits!!!!

    Comment by Mr. Cynical— 9/28/05 @ 9:04 pm

  110. 125

    NoWonder spews:

    rujax206 @ 121

    ‘Starve city schools…keep ‘em stupid and pinned down in one spot where we can keep an eye on ‘em.’

    Let’s see if I get this right. The righties want to keep the major dem constituancy in a box, so that they won’t become educated and NOT vote for repubs?

    The incentives are actually reversed. The dems need to keep the underclass sheep uneducated while providing as much in terms of salaries for their big contributors.

  111. 126

    NoWonder spews:

    Clueless @ 122

    ‘Oh and thanks for sourcing some of your propaganda jihad..’

    Are you using “jihad” because it was effective? I have seen many studies over two decades, some even from NRA-friendlies, that show the same trends.

    As for the diversion around the moonies:

    http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/Fwd-1.1.pdf

    Enjoy

  112. 127

    Puddybud spews:

    Curtis Love: Your agenda is what keeps po blacks and latinos poor. When I went to college my father was retired and my mother made $6,000/year as a factor worker in the 70s. How did I get to school, hard work, scholarships, and student loans. We were poor. I didn’t go to catholic school even though there were two in our city, I went to public school.

    I can afford to sacrifice and send my sons to private school but they wanted the public school experience. The difference is that I AM A FATHER! Do you get it? They know right from wrong. That’s what makes it work. They see the rich kids getting all doped up and the police looking the other way because their parents (Democrats) are in power in Everett. So don’t give me that crap budwad!

    Rugrat602: Fukitol, it will work wonders on your psyche! Regarding that worthless screech on keeping the schools down: You know I have many family members who are NEA union members so I know what the deal is. I can speak from experience. If the WEA is like the NEA, you know union dues extortion, what is the WEA doing for the kids in Seattle? Nuthin!!! Who controls the NEA, donk brothers and sisters of your Rugrat602. Throw them all out. Every last one of them. You should be complaining about their agenda and not ours. Your priorities are screwed up. You should be complaining about the shitty education headless lucite gives. It is very apparent on this blog the shit she teaches the kids. Righton is correct. Seattle teachers like him (lucite) prepare the average Seattle student for mediocrity. Why? The don’t motivate, they castrate anyone who challenges them or questions their politics. My wife’s best girlfriend in Seattle had to remove her daughter out of one school due to teacher politics and the teaching of the homo lifestyle in the classroom. Where do the children get the real foundation of learning if they are being politicized by the left in the cities with crap in their heads?

  113. 128

    spews:

    It’s interesting that many SSD teachers and UW professors send their kids to our PUBLIC elementary school.

    What is more interesting is with all the high prices with housing and other costs associated with living Seattle that 35% of school kids go to private schools.

  114. 129

    Puddybud spews:

    Looks like my post is in the sand box again. But on a lighter note here are some “educators” in the technical world I work in. We on the right do have a sense of humor. Enjoy!

    DJ, I expect that you’ll skip this post too!

    http://www.routergod.com

  115. 130

    spews:

    Starve city schools…keep ‘em stupid and pinned down in one spot where we can keep an eye on ‘em.

    Rujax- you are right about keeping them stupid. As long as donks run the Seattle public schools it will always be that way. There is no amount of money that will change it.

  116. 131

    spews:

    Nothing, nothing, could be more of a positive return to “the people” than improving support for schools.

    Return the money in the form of vouchers and give it to poor inner city kids and you may have a point.

  117. 132

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Exactly RUFUS… what those of us that send our kids to private schools have are OPTIONS… the option we have created for ourselves in our willingness to sacrifice to get there, whether it means an extra job or giving up luxuries or whatever it takes.

    I simply do NOT understand the mindset that does not want to give EVERYONE the ability to have that option… and the option of choosing what is best for their children, their family, their circumstances.

    Why are they so damned afraid of letting the market system work? How do they think we choose which private school we send our kids to? Why is their having a choice of what car they drive or what beer they drink more important than having a choice to educate your child as YOU feel best WITH the support of your community?

    Oh yea… the union thugs.

  118. 134

    Puddybud spews:

    Ain’t it wonderful ProudAss? At least he provides us a forum to negate stuck on stoopid negativity from his side.

  119. 135

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    What would be wonderful would be a clue as to what triggered the damned cheap ASS filter….

    I dunno, I’m pretty darn positive many of ‘em are stuck on stupid!

  120. 136

    For the Clueless spews:

    NoWonder/Liberal Larry @ 126

    I thought you could relate to it since you’re such an esteemed member of the Bush Fedayeen hereabouts.

  121. 137

    NoWonder spews:

    Clueless @ 135

    ‘…esteemed member of the Bush Fedayeen…’

    I’ll take that as a compliment, and instead of any rational refutation of the other things I wrote.

  122. 138

    For the Clueless spews:

    136

    Take it anyway you like. I’d expect that from someone whose judgement about a man like Bush never gets any more harsh than “he made a few mistakes”.

  123. 139

    Puddybud spews:

    Cluelessness: At least we said he made a few mistakes, and we a Bush Fedayeen? One who would sacrifice his life for a cause? :( Wow thems’ be wonderful words from the king of name play. When I called you an enabler, (still are) did you implement wordsmithing then on Lucite? Shit no. Enabler! :(

  124. 140

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Um, gee, I’m wondering if we could think of a liberal, any liberal, who *ever* admitted they were wrong about anything.

    I vote we all go on a posting vigil until we can come up with one. You start aptly-named-clueless.

  125. 141

    Puddybud spews:

    ProudAss, where do you get your vigil candles from? I suggested that place in San Jose to purchase Erotic Exotic Scented Candles for Goldy. Those lavender ones could be our vigil candles.

  126. 142

    rujax206 spews:

    I love the smell of shitheads ranting in the morning.

    Flame on Bill Bennett Buddies!

  127. 143

    For the Clueless spews:

    139 – Give it up, Puddy Freep, the Jared Taylor cheerleader or is it the white-supremacist enabler?

    Perhaps you should champion the voluminous writings of Jared Taylor above your other favorite hacks like Captain Ed.

  128. 144

    NoWonder spews:

    rujax206 @ 142

    ‘Flame on Bill Bennett Buddies!’

    Yea, what Bennet said was stupid. It was almost like he was temporarily transformed into a Margaret Sanger.

  129. 145

    s-choir spews:

    re 132: If you want vouchers for children to go to private schools, then private schools need to be responsible also for handicapped children, just like the public schools are. It’s not YOUR money. It’s everybody’s money , so everybody should have a say in how the private schools are run. You can’t run away from the fact that we’re all in this together. Even the most insular 58 year old trust fund baby (GWB) has to ride on the PUBLIC’s roads if he wants to get anywhere.

  130. 146

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Dear singing the tired old liberal song… and where did I say otherwise about special needs children?

    Do you actually READ or just skim and spew?

    When you invest in ANYTHING private, it is indeed still the investors (the ‘everybody’s’) money… and market forces work… the “good” thrive and the “bad” change their ways or fail.

    Gosh, you know, that’s EXACTLY how private schools work NOW. The good ones are full and have waiting lists, the not-so-good, lose families and either improve or close. And quite frankly, I HAVE pulled my kids out of a Catholic elementary school that was shitty and waited a year to get them INTO a great one.

    There is absolutley NO REASON that cannot happen with PUBLIC SCHOOLS and vouchers. Let each school, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE, sink or swim on its OWN merits… not settle for mediocracy and less because of bureaucracy and the protection of union thugs. Let each family take THEIR share money and dedicate it to the PUBLIC OR PRIVATE school that meets their needs.

    And that’s the issue… not what’s best for kids and families… but rather, WHO GETS TO CONTROL THE CASH… thank you union thugs and 6 figure administrators.

  131. 147

    Matt spews:

    Curtis Love @ 78

    Gifting laws. A public jurisdiction cannot give money to individuals, groups, or other jurisdictions.

  132. 148

    s-choir spews:

    re 146: …..and speaking of tired old mantras: Yours is to give public money to private concerns and then not have the private concerns live up to their public responsibilities. The money that you want in vouchers FAR exceeds the amount of tax money you put in. If you want to “privatize”, then you can have ONLY the taxes that you PERSONALLY contributed. No more. How can you say that that isn’t fair? You want all these thousands of dollars in tax money THAT YOU DID NOT CONTRIBUTE TO TE SYSTEM, and you think that we should give it to you so you can giveOUR tax money to a private school and in addition you want us (the public) to have no say in how it’s spent?

    You’re an idiot!!!

  133. 149

    Curtis Love spews:

    Yes, by all means let’s take the cash away from union thugs and 6 figure administrators and give it to cporporate thugs and 6 figure administrators.

  134. 150

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    How dare you say I “did not contribute to the system, you NON_-THINKING ASS.

    Do you think I check a little damned box on my propery tax that says “Deduct School Taxes You Don’t Want To Pay Here”.

    26 YEARS of paying school taxes for union thugs and 6 figure administrators to piss away.

    And there’s the little irony… YOU have absolutely no problem wasting MY school dollars, but you refuse to allow me or others to use them wisely.

    Fine. I’ll BACK take what I personally contributed…well over $30,000 over 26 YEARS excuse me, not contributed … what I had NO CHOICE but to pay.

  135. 151

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Strange love – why are you so afraid of the PROVEN success of market forces and competition in education?

    More importantly, why are you willing to condemn YOUR children and your neighbors children to pitiful education in order to be able to spew that old party line “If conservatives think it’s good we must hate it”.

    Who’s the idiot?… besides those condemned kids?

  136. 152

    NoWonder spews:

    s-choir @ 148

    ‘If you want to “privatize”, then you can have ONLY the taxes that you PERSONALLY contributed. No more.’

    Earth to s-choir..You can try to make up the rules if you want. You are welcome to your opinion. Be cafeful though, as your logic could be applied to public school funding as well.

    ‘The money that you want in vouchers FAR exceeds the amount of tax money you put in.’

    Interesting logic. People who receive public money can only get up to what they have put in to date?

    ‘…in addition you want us (the public) to have no say in how it’s spent?’

    Voucher-type assistance is already given to college students in the form of Pell Grants, loans, State grants, etc. There are rules for schools that want to get that money. There is no doubt that voucher programs in the future will have negotiated strings. The GI Bill, however, set good precedent for giving the money to the grantee to spend wherever thay please.

    You may not like the idea that if vouchers become mainstream more kids will get better education for less money, but you will need to come up with some better arguments to fight it off.

  137. 153

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 149

    ‘…and give it to cporporate thugs…’

    No, give it to the parents of the students. Just like Pell Grants, etc. Your argument is that EIC tax credits should be illegal because it might end up somewhere you disapprove.

  138. 154

    s-choir spews:

    re 150: But first you have to pay the schools for the services you got. $30,000 doesn’t nearly cover the bill.

  139. 155

    s-choir spews:

    re 151: Why don’t you take your 8th grade drivel about market forces and shove it.

  140. 156

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Dear dumb ass – I “got” no service as my kids… pay attention NOW… WERE NOT IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM.

    Get it yet? They BENEFITED. They USED my money.

    Tell the truth, the educated you, didn’t they?

  141. 157

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    re 151: Why don’t you take your 8th grade drivel about market forces and shove it. -Comment by s-choir— 9/30/05 @ 9:45 am

    Thank you for exposing yourself, sweet cheeks.

    It’s ALWAYS inevitable that you fringies do.

  142. 158

    NoWonder spews:

    s-choir @ 153

    ‘But first you have to pay the schools for the services you got.’

    Would this be what the services are worth, or what the services cost? The worth of public education is much lower than the cost.

  143. 159

    NoWonder spews:

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS @ 151

    ‘More importantly, why are you willing to condemn YOUR children and your neighbors children to pitiful education…’

    The short answer is guilt. It is easy to “educate” kids using public school. No one wants to think, or especially have others think, that the easy way could refelct poorly on them. The longer answers get into pure ideology, and is similar to the shrill defenses of Social Security and Medicare. These three systems involving middle and upper class entitlements are the main examples of socialism these ideologues hold so dear. Knock one down and they will all fall soon after.

    I actually think all of these systems will eventually crash under their own weight. It is just a shame that so many kids and adults get such a bad deal in the mean time.

  144. 160

    Curtis Love spews:

    Demographic inforamtion on BSD and SSD

    Bellevue SD 10/06/04 Enrollment 15765
    Afr Am 2.60%
    Asian 22.90%
    Hispanic 8.30%
    Multi 6.90%
    White 59.00%

    How many distinct first languages? 64
    Percent for whom English is NOT first language 25.50%

    ESL enrollment 8.20%
    Special Ed enrollment 8.00%

    Seattle SD 2003-2004 enrollment
    American Indian 1.6%
    Alaska Native 0.3%
    Native American 0.5%

    African American 22.5%

    Latino Asian 0.7%
    Latino Black 0.8%
    Latino Indian 5.4%
    Latino White 4.2%

    Chinese 5.3%
    East Indian 0.6%
    Filipino 4.4%
    Japanese 1.7%
    Korean 0.7%
    Other Asian 1.1%
    Samoan 0.9%
    Other Southeast Asian 3.5%
    Vietnamese 5.0%
    (All Asians total 23.1%)

    Gypsy 0.1%
    White 40.8%

    And this is interesting – a graph of minority/majority enrollment in SSD. Turns out that after the school busing crises in this city, the white folk who could got out of SSD and into private schools or moved out of the city. Now, in a city that according to the 2000 census says is 70% white, the Seattle School District is majority-minority. It’s not a QUALITY thing, it’s a RACE thing. Admit it, guys.

    SSD enrollment by ehtnicity 1976-2003(?)

  145. 161

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Oh bullshit you pathetic typical liberal race pimp.

    Parents want whats BEST for their children, you fool.

  146. 162

    s-choir spews:

    re 154: And the private school you sent your kids to did not have to deal with the mentally and phsically challenged students, did not have to deal with serious behavior problems. In fact, they took the cream of the crop and, since it was a private school, foisted all the problem children onto the society at large. So , you did receive services for your tax money and, since you are a you are a member of society, whether you like it or not, you –by God– are going to PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE OF THE COSTS!!

  147. 163

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    BULLSHIT.

    Our Catholic high school has handicapped children, a program RENOWNED for developmentally disabled children, providing teachers certified in Special Education, low student to teacher ratios, speech therapy, diagnostic and academic Testing, direct instruction, social and study skill help, modified classes in foreign land mathematics, after school tutoring, tracking of student progress andSAT modified testing all integrated to to provide a full high school experience for students… in other words WE TREAT THEM LIKE VALUED, CAPABLE CHILDREN AND we have international students from China, Germany, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Mexico, Romania, Russia, Taiwan, Thailand, Africa and Vietnam enrolled in the International Program most of whom arrive here not speaking a single word of English, but come to our school SPECIFICALLY to learn the language and culture of the US

    Do some research before you spew.

  148. 164

    spews:

    144-

    Oh, I get it…85 years ago white folk could say whatever they wanted about “negroes”.

    So nowonder wants to turn back the clock to when the white MAN was king.

    What an insecure, bigoted racist ass.

    No Wonder…nowonder.

  149. 165

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    ‘Do some research before you spew.’

    Of course, that would entail giving up your talking points, speech bullets and too many of your ideological fallacies.

    How does it feel to be a sheep?

  150. 166

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 157

    ‘It’s not a QUALITY thing, it’s a RACE thing. Admit it, guys.’

    After increasing school funding (adjusted for inflation) substantially over the last three decades the reason the schools are bad is a race thing? Are you saying the teachers and administrators would be doing a better job educating if all the students were white?

  151. 167

    NoWonder spews:

    typicalrightwingdipshit @ 161

    ‘Oh, I get it…85 years ago white folk could say whatever they wanted…’

    What are you commenting about?

  152. 169

    Curtis Love spews:

    I have a couple of comments about private education:
    1. There are good and bad schopols in both public and private education.
    2. Any private schools that are required to meet financial, achievement, attendance, tolerance, or quality accountability standards, be responsible to the parents of their students, and are prohibited from prohibits schools from discriminating against employees or students on the basis of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation or physical, mental, emotional or learning disability, I have no problem with.

  153. 170

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    And I would have no problem with public schools if they actually taught subjects to increase the future success of children rather than the PC crap they get, and they did it while curtailing the union thug costs and the bloated administrative costs.

  154. 171

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 165

    ‘…I have no problem with.’

    As long as the private schools become just like the public schools you are OK with them.

    Luckily no one is waiting for your vote.

  155. 172

    s-choir spews:

    How can you equate a school that is run by the Catholic Church with your run of the mill private school? What is private about a school that is bolstered by a huge, worldwide religious organisation like the Catholic Church. AND, until the Church starts paying some taxes of its own, I see no reason why the American public’s tax money should be given to the Catholic Church in any way , shape, or form: Especially in the form of school vouchers from the government. That’s what the whole separation of church and state debate is about. You can’t take and not give.

  156. 174

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Bullshit.

    Again something you know nothing about.

    You actually think we receive checks from Rome??? Idiot.

    Parishes and parishioners support the DIOCESE and the DIOCESE (see? it’s all local..) in turn, contributes to the schools … mostly by providing improvement loans and subsidizing students that can’t afford tuition.

  157. 176

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Dear idiot, the GOVERNMENT HAS NO MONEY WITH WHICH TO GIVE VOUCHERS OR WELFARE… the money BELONGS TO THE TAXPAYERS.

  158. 178

    NoWonder spews:

    s-choir @ 168

    ‘I see no reason why the American public’s tax money should be given to the Catholic Church in any way , shape, or form: Especially in the form of school vouchers from the government.’

    Do not give it to any church or envirowacko group. Provide it to the parents so they can best educate their children.

    I agree with you on the tax exemption stuff. If all of the religions could get off the tax-exempt stuff there could be much more activism in the political arena. I am not sure the left would like the results.

  159. 179

    andrea spews:

    How about returning the 50 million that was given to Sound Transit. The 50 million that put a hole in the budget.

  160. 181

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 166

    And I would have no problem with public schools if they actually taught subjects to increase the future success of children rather than the PC crap they get, and they did it while curtailing the union thug costs and the bloated administrative costs.
    So, as I commented before, you prefer a private school with corporate thugs and bloated administrative costs? Have youy looked at salaries in the private sector? When public schools can GET a top-notch administrator for the salaries they pay, that person is taking a job out of motivation and dedication to public education, not because they could do no better elsewhere.

    When you say “union thug costs,” do you mean teacher salaries, and that you’d like to see them paid less? And THAT’S your prescription for educational improvement?

    As NoWonder said to me:
    Luckily no one is waiting for your vote.

  161. 182

    Curtis Love spews:

    NoWonder @ 167

    You’d prefer unaccountable, racially discriminatory private schools? Figures.

  162. 183

    s-choir spews:

    You radical righties are getting incensed , but not about what I’ve been saying. They are totally outside the reality loop. Their stuff reads like a parody of , THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE!!

  163. 184

    NoWonder spews:

    Curtis Love @ 176

    ‘You’d prefer unaccountable, racially discriminatory private schools?’

    No. Private schools are actually much more accountable. Have you ever tried to figure out a schools budget? 10 years ago it was actually possible to track how levy money was spent, although it was very difficult. Since then the rules have been changed so that it is virtually impossible for soemone outside the system to track the money.

    I think you would have trouble finding any private schools that discriminates based on race. There were some that only allowed blacks a while back but I think they got shamed into opening up. The real issue is sure to be related to the disabled, who do take a larger amount of resources to educate. The public schools get lots of extra money beyond “basic” ed to fund this, and I would guess any voucher system would have to follow suit. There are plenty of schools now that cater to special needs kids, and do it for much less than the public schools.

  164. 185

    NoWonder spews:

    rujax206 @ 175

    ‘You and the Straw Man, baby. ‘

    I must have missed something. In any event, I am glad to be providing entertainment for you.

  165. 186

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    The public schools get lots of extra money beyond “basic” ed to fund this, Comment by NoWonder— 9/30/05 @ 3:24 pm

    Which is exactly the reason those disgusting pigs are so damned anxious to label children with ADD, ADHD, learning disabled, blah, blah, blah, blah.

    Follow the MONEY.

    In private school the budget, the staff, the administrators are acountable to the people paying the bills: THE PARENTS.

    I can NOT even add up how many cumulative years I sat in mind numbing, boring Parents Club meetings going over the budget line by line, item by item.

  166. 187

    headless lucy spews:

    Schools are underfunded and the State of WA needs to hire almost 12,000 more to get class sizes down to reasonable levels. If parents are given vouchers to send their kids to private schools, then the private schools AND the public schools will become the same.

    I am betting that the people PUSHING right now for privatization will be demanding public assistance just like our PUBLIC corporations do at this point in time. The main thing to remember about public schools is that they don’t have to educate kids AND make a profit. If you irresponsible privatizing righties could think beyond your predjudices( No, I’m not slamming Bill Bennett. Well, maybe a little.) you’d realize this.

  167. 188

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    No one is demanding anything ballsless..

    We advocate parent should have a CHOICE…. you (as in the collective ‘you’) should be very familiar with that word, you (as in the collective ‘you’) certainly invoke it often enough when it suits your (as in the collective ‘your’) purposes.

    SOME private schools make a profit… most fall under NON-PROFIT status.

    I used to believe the 5 things government could do better than private industry were the military, the prison system, the postal service, the parks and the roads.

    Well we can NOW eliminate the prison system and roads from that list… and the postal service is teetering…

  168. 189

    headless lucy spews:

    It’s in the financial interests of private prisons to have the most people in prisons as possible. Ponder that one for a while. AND, where does the money come from to fund the “private” prisons?

  169. 190

    headless lucy spews:

    Education is a hot button. I’m calling Hillary tonight and letting her know.

  170. 191

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Hillary will help education the way she tried to help healthcare… GOD, HELP US…even Waggin his Willie ran away from her on that one.

  171. 192

    righton spews:

    I still don’t know how pouring money money on an inner city class of 34 kids will help…unless you add another teacher…but that’s cheap compared to the money these guys wanna piss away

  172. 193

    spews:

    headless lucy
    I dont know how long it will take but it is obvious that public schools are not the answer. The public schools are failing ever since I can remember back in the 70’s.

  173. 195

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    … The United States Department of Education was created in 1979 (by PL 96-88) as a Cabinet-level department of the United States government, and began operating in 1980… ah yes, yet another thing for which to thank Useless Carter’s administration.

  174. 196

    NoWonder spews:

    headless lucy @ 189

    ‘It’s in the financial interests of private prisons to have the most people in prisons as possible.’

    Same for the “public” prisons, as well as the public schools. Can you say lifelong learning, but not necessarly knowing?

  175. 197

    NoWonder spews:

    headless lucy @ 187

    ‘…then the private schools AND the public schools will become the same.’

    So the argument is…Vouchers are bad because they will make the private schools as bad as the public schools?

    Was the GI Bill bad for the same reasons?

  176. 198

    thor spews:

    I want specifics from Pelz – not simply a press release. Let’s see the balance sheet. The problem with Pelz is that he is mostly all show but when it comes right down to it, he has a hard time accomplishing anything. That’s why I am voting for Richard Mciver – he’s a hardworking progressive who actually works with people to get things done.

    If you want an example of how Dwight failed to get anything done – just look at transportation. He dithered and fought for three years to keep a package of transit and viaduct improvements off the ballot. It made for great newspaper coverage of a fiasco. But we’re still waiting for the trains and the fix to the Viaduct.

    Ignore Dwight’s efforts to draw attention to himself, vote for the person we can count on: Richard McIver.

  177. 199

    Puddybud spews:

    Rugrat602@all: Message from PacMan to you specifically but to all who love taking words out of context. He told me he will not post here but he asked me to transmit this love message to Rugrat, special delivery.

    “First, I performed an exhaustive Internet search on Bill Bennett’s comments last Wednesday. I listened to the whole Bill Bennett interview on various stations with his last caller that day. While Dr Bennett was stating accurate facts he worded his response awkwardly. As a BLACK MAN, the figures are as they stand. As a BLACK MAN I was offended by his choice of words but not offended by the statistics, because Rujax206, if you did your homework instead of performing your standard knee-jerk reaction, you would know the statisics. Puddy – did you suggest Rujax206 take some Fukitol from http://www.fukitol.com? Funny!!! Rujax206, I suggest you purchase the red-neck truckers package!!!

    Remember Daniel Patrick Moynihan, scion of NY Senatorial Politics? He researched out-of-wedlock birth. He talked about the 1960’s and the problems with 23% of black babies being born OOW. The 1960’s national average (including the black OOW births) was only 4%. Today it’s approximately 80% of black babies birthed today are OOW. Today 23% of white babies are OOW. So your race is lagging ours by four decades or better said for animal hind parts (that’s really my phrase first, Puddy you can use it though) lefties including stuckonstupiddon, we blacks are blazing a new trail and you all are followers for a change.

    Growing up my father had a framed cartoon in our house:

    I dug hip – and whitey picked up on it.
    I dug jazz – and whitey picked up on it.
    I dug blues – and whitey picked up on it.
    I dug freedom – and I finally lost whitey.

    So I guess the freedom of OOW births is being copied by you guys Rujax.

    Where do these poor Black babies go as they grow up? What opportunities are presented by the liberal city fathers to my people? I lived it you idiot. I lived in the inner city tenements you dolts. Been there, done that. What has your lily-white existence in Seattle or the suburbs done for you to understand my experience? Nothing. At least Dr. Bennett has studied this along with the late Senator Moynihan. I ask that of you Rujax206? No father figures, poor living conditions, gang pressures? They enter crime. That’s what Bill Bennett was referring to. I know the statistics. Jesse Jackson knows the statistics. Al Sharpton knows the statistics. Will they hold the Democratic Party accountable for the morass they have put my people into? Absolutely not.

    So I end Rujax206 with this. If you on the left are willing to put your hard earned money where your political mouths go everyday on animal hind parts, then prove it by forcing liberal city fathers to be accountable for the monies spent on these wonderful “social” programs.” – Message from PacMan

    Hmmm…? Stands on it’s own. Nothing to add from Pudster!

  178. 200

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    PacMan said it all.
    LEFTIST PINHEADS like rujax are ALL talk and NO action.
    When WHITEYS like rujax are offended by facts offered by the Bill Cosby’s and Bill Bennett’s of the world….they unfortunately stop at FEIGNING being offended. How in the hell can a WHITEGUY like rujax even pretend to be offended and know what it’s like growing up Black in America….especially in poverty.
    So knee-jerk LEFTIST PINHEADS like rujax trumpet some ridiculous social programs that end up creating a dependent and irresponsible enviornment that ends up making a bad situation MUCH MUCH worse.
    the rujax’s of the world react merely for their HATEBUSH/LEFTIST PINHEAD agenda.
    I’m sure some folks do truly believe in their hearts they are trying to do the right thing. Yet they do not come to grips with the unwanted consequences of creating a dependent culture. The statistics are there. Whiteys like Rujax scream RACISM even at the mention of those statistics. WHY???
    Because Rujax is a LEFTIST PINHEAD who wants to control our society in every aspect…..like HITLER…no different.
    Fuck you Rujax,,,you are PHONEY!!

  179. 201

    Puddybud spews:

    Just got back from church and PacMan sent another email.

    “You know, we had teachers like headless lucy in school. We accepted what they said and believed the world as they portrayed it. Growing up black and poor we looked at TV and wondered if the “Leave it to Beaver” life style was how they did it. We took our old car and drove around the suburbs and looked at how the richer half lived. It wasn’t envy (well it more jealousy), but my father ALWAYS told us that an education is the way to achieve anything in life, so go get educated. I had a father figure in my life. Many of these OOW children do not.

    When I received that education and started looking at life I realized that more than half the stuff the “liberal” teachers were teaching me was HOGWASH! Get that headless lucy? Your kind did not prepare me for life’s lessons as you claim! Your kind paints an unrealistic view of the real working world. There are no utopias you idiot, especially for a black man. I walk into a store and what do the white women do, the clutch their handhabs like I’m a common thief. I just look at them and smile all the while wanting to scream at the top of my lungs. Maybe I should grab and rape them, you know keep up the liberal blacks “just gotta fuck dem white bitches” stereotype so promoted by the white MSM. No Rujax206, you are no friend of mind. No lucy, you corrupt young minds into worthless human beings.

    Working in the northeast at northeastern companies, I immediately felt ostracism because I went to a great university. Who gave me this feeling? White Liberals. They placed the glass ceiling upon me. Now, having my children I am pounding in their heads education. But I am adding something that my daddy didn’t think about. Being in control. I want them to be in control of their destinies. Wasn’t it you Puddy who told stuckonstupiddon Martin Luther King Jr., “I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate.”

    He said: “The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.”

    He said: “Many interviewers when they come to talk to me, think they’re being progressive by not mentioning in their stories any longer that I’m black. I tell them, ‘Don’t stop now. If I shot somebody you’d mention it.'” Exactly. I watch the news and read newspapers. If it’s a white perp, no color is mentioned. If it’s a person of color; their hairstyle, color of clothes, amount of bling-bling, etc. is all announced!

    He also said: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Liberals will NEVER judge me by the content of my character, hence I left you all long ago Rujax206!!!” – Comment by PacMan

  180. 202

    Puddybud spews:

    PacMan, looks like you email is being held by the “damned, cheap ASS filter” as ProudAss says. But don’t worry PacMan, I still have the email.

  181. 203

    Puddybud spews:

    Since Goldy scrutinizing or he already started his drinking liberally:

    Paragraph 1: Just got back from church and PacMan sent another email.

    “You know, we had teachers like headless lucy in school. We accepted what they said and believed the world as they portrayed it. Growing up black and poor we looked at TV and wondered if the “Leave it to Beaver” life style was how they did it. We took our old car and drove around the suburbs and looked at how the richer half lived. It wasn’t envy (well it more jealousy), but my father ALWAYS told us that an education is the way to achieve anything in life, so go get educated. I had a father figure in my life. Many of these OOW children do not.

  182. 204

    Puddybud spews:

    Here is paragraph 2 of PacMan’s email:

    When I received that education and started looking at life I realized that more than half the stuff the “liberal” teachers were teaching me was HOGWASH! Get that headless lucy? Your kind did not prepare me for life’s lessons as you claim! Your kind paints an unrealistic view of the real working world. There are no utopias you idiot, especially for a black man. I walk into a store and what do the white women do, the clutch their handhabs like I’m a common thief. I just look at them and smile all the while wanting to scream at the top of my lungs. Maybe I should grab and rape them, you know keep up the liberal blacks “just gotta fuck dem white bitches” stereotype so promoted by the white MSM. No Rujax206, you are no friend of mind. No lucy, you corrupt young minds into worthless human beings.

  183. 205

    Puddybud spews:

    Ah it’s paragraph 2 PacMan. I guess

    When I received that education and started looking at life I realized

    that more than half the stuff the “liberal” teachers were teaching me was HOGWA$H! Get that headless lucy? Your kind did not prepare me for life’s lessons as you claim! Your kind paints an unrealistic view of the real working world. There are no u^opia$ you idiot, especially for a black man. I walk into a store and what do the white women do, the clutch their handbags like I’m a common ^hief. I just look at them and smile all the while wanting to scream at the top of my lungs. Maybe I should gr@b and r@pe them, you know keep up the liberal blacks “just gotta fuk dem white beatches” stereotype so promoted by the white MSM. No Rujax206, you are no friend of mind. No lucy, you corrupt young minds into worthless human beings.

  184. 206

    Puddybud spews:

    Working in the northeast at northeastern companies, I immediately felt ostracism because I went to a great university. Who gave me this feeling? White Liberals. They placed the glass ceiling upon me. Now, having my children I am pounding in their heads education. But I am adding something that my daddy didn’t think about. Being in control. I want them to be in control of their destinies. Wasn’t it you Puddy who told stuckonstupiddon Martin Luther King Jr., “I have almost
    reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate.”

    He said: “The Negro needs the white man to free him from his fears. The white man needs the Negro to free him from his guilt.”

    He said: “Many interviewers when they come to talk to me, think
    they’re being progressive by not mentioning in their stories any longer that I’m black. I tell them, ‘Don’t stop now. If I shot somebody you’d mention it.'” Exactly. I watch the news and read newspapers. If it’s a white perp, no color is mentioned. If it’s a person of color; their hairstyle, color of clothes, amount of bling-bling, etc. is all announced!

    He also said: “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.” Liberals will NEVER judge me by the content of my character, hence I left you all long ago Rujax206!!!” – Comment by PacMan

  185. 210

    Curtis Love spews:

    NoWonder
    As I said, if private schools, BY LAW, required to be as accountable in financial, equal opportunity, and performance terms as public schools, I got no problem. And I include privately held private schools in that as well. You do know that privately held corps don’t have to make their financials public, don’t you? I knew you did.

  186. 211

    Curtis Love spews:

    Privateers in general —

    I didn’t get it until today. You all WANT public schools to fail. You don’t WANT public schools to succeed, which is why you block every program that seems to have a chance to help them. You want them to DISAPPEAR, and to be replaced by some abominable combination of private etnerprise and God knows what, outside of any and all public (and that IS what ‘government’ means) scrutiny.

    The weirdest thngs I ever hear of are the Right’s adherence to ideology over practical success.

  187. 212

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    What programs do we want to block? Which do we want to “disapppear?

    Name just one. In fact, big mouth, name one word, one phrase, one sentence, ANYTHING where we claimed to want “WANT public schools to fail”.

    You can’t. Once again, a liberal devoid of ideas succumbs to SODDI strategy.

    The FACT, curtis, is that public schools ARE FAILING.

    We have allowed massive amounts of money to be thrown at them for 40 years. We have seen every single goofy nutburger idea trotted out by progreesives foisted on OUR children like little human lab rats. I guess that’s what Hitlary meant by “human capital”. We are so busy coddling the kiddies, they’ve all developed a severe case of TMPR Syndrome and have no reason to WANT to excel.

    The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study studies students in 46 countries. In 2003, it found that American fourth-graders trailed students in 11 other countries. As if that wasn’t bad enough, by eighth-grade, American students trailed 14 countries. There’s a similar trend in science.

    The FACT, curtis, is that teachers unions OPPOSE every single proposal that would benefit the chidren:
    More school days (Japan has 240 to our piddly 180 – the union says “NO”.
    Vouchers – the union says “NO”.
    Charter schools – the union says “NO”.
    Local control – the union says “NO”.
    Homeschool – the union says “NO”.

    And let’s talk about those piddly 180 days. They are NOT 180 FULL 6 HOUR DAYS OF EDUCATING. Call a 3hour 1 min day an early release and SURPRISE, it’s considered a full day of school. Australia, England, most of Europe go for at least 200 days. And that’s year round – they don’t take 3 mosnths off in the summer as we do to forget what little our kids learned the past year.

    Do you even grasp that when public schools fail, as they are now, that it impacts not just the lives of those poor kids, but ALL of our lives.

    That you would even consider we would, that anyone would “all WANT public schools to fail” clearly shows you care less about the children than you do about your ideological agenda of insult, criticize and blame.

  188. 213

    Puddybud spews:

    Curtis: I don’t want public schools to fail, I want the WEA and the NEA to fail. They fail the kids so the kids fail. They play politics so the parents have to! They are only in it for themselves, like the Machinists Union leaders at Boeing. D O Y O U G E T I T (Slowly for emphasis) Curtis?

  189. 214

    Puddybud spews:

    ProudAss, are you calling Curtis a dude in the SODDI defense? Are you getting so close to them now you call them dude?

  190. 215

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    I was ‘speaking’ online with a pal who’s a Montessor teacher in Sidney (yes, that’s where I got the AU and England info) and she had an interesting comment about the amount of time spent in school:

    “i don’t think its necessarily the AMOUNT of time in school there…… its the TYPE of schooling…….. look at how well kids do from montessori schools in usa and europe……… they’ve started now in england to turn the absolute worst elementary schools into montessori schools and theyve gone from a 20% literacy to 80% in less than 6 months!”

  191. 216

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Righton, you can be assured that when I, as an adult, calls a kid “dude” it is with a great measure of sarcasm in the inflection. ;)

  192. 217

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    More from my Aussie pal:

    “hey hun, have a google for ‘indicators for education vs. indicators for learning’ or sommat like that……… the standard education systems run on indicators for education, which is the model that says.. as long as a child has x amount of hours in each subject, instructed by a teacher that has x level of training and as long as there are x, y and z texts and material resources available, the child is being educated. that of course is a crock, but thats the perspective endemic in traditional schools. The indicators for learning model says that as long as a child is able to demonstrate their competency in the areas of x, y and z (math, literacy etc) at increasing levels of complexity and creativity, learning is occuring.”

    “Any system that puts the child first, their priority being that children learn rather than teachers educate is heading in the right direction because that challenges TEACHERS to be creative and inspired through their personal observations about how each of their individual children in their class LEARNS and becomes inspired and is creative in how they achieve that.”

  193. 218

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 212

    What programs do we want to block? Which do we want to “disapppear?
    Right now it’s the $10 million you don’t want to go to public education.

    In fact, big mouth, name one word, one phrase, one sentence, ANYTHING where we claimed to want “WANT public schools to fail”.”
    I didn’t say anyone said it. I just got that this is what your chorus is really saying behind the words.

    You can’t. Once again, a liberal devoid of ideas succumbs to SODDI strategy.
    I am not an educator, nor do I claim any particular expertise in educational affairs. But I can read, and what I read tell s me that public shcools are not failing, and that you therefore are lying when you say they are.

    The FACT, curtis, is that public schools ARE FAILING.
    Not fact.

    We have allowed massive amounts of money to be thrown at them for 40 years. We have seen every single goofy nutburger idea trotted out by progreesives foisted on OUR children like little human lab rats.
    No, we have paid for public education. It’s not free.

    I guess that’s what Hitlary meant
    Nice. you’re a dick, too.

    “The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study studies students in 46 countries. In 2003, it found that American fourth-graders trailed students in 11 other countries. As if that wasn’t bad enough, by eighth-grade, American students trailed 14 countries. There’s a similar trend in science.”
    It’s all in how you phrase it, isn’t it? Here’s what the TIMMS site says:
    In 2003, U.S. fourth-grade students exceeded the international averages in both mathematics and science. In mathematics, U.S. fourth-graders outperformed their peers in 13 of the other 24 participating countries, and, in science, outperformed their peers in 16 countries.
    In 2003, fourth-graders in [only] three countries-Chinese Taipei, Japan, and Singapore-outperformed U.S. fourth-graders in both mathematics and science, while students in 13 countries turned in lower average mathematics and science scores than U.S. students. Among the 13 countries in which students were outperformed by U.S. fourth-grade students, five countries are members of the OECD (Australia, Italy, New Zealand, Norway and Scotland), and three are English-speaking countries (Australia, New Zealand and Scotland).
    In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
    Eighth-graders in the five Asian countries that outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in mathematics in 2003-Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong SAR, Japan, Korea, and Singapore-also outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in science in 2003, with eighth-graders in Estonia and Hungary performing better than U.S. students in mathematics and science as well.

    More school days (Japan has 240 to our piddly 180 – the union says “NO”.
    You argue elsewhere in here that merely BEING in school is not the same as being educated, yet here you argue the opposite.
    Vouchers – the union says “NO”.
    Vouchers are a bad idea that does not measuably improve education. And don’t try to bring in hired-gun Peterson or I’ll have to bury you there.
    Charter schools – the union says “NO”.
    Umm, those were voters. Twice.
    Local control – the union says “NO”.
    Surely you have heard of school boards.
    Homeschool – the union says “NO”.
    Home schooling is allowed by law. Someone as smart as you should know this.

    And let’s talk about those piddly 180 days. They are NOT 180 FULL 6 HOUR DAYS OF EDUCATING. Call a 3hour 1 min day an early release and SURPRISE, it’s considered a full day of school. Australia, England, most of Europe go for at least 200 days. And that’s year round – they don’t take 3 mosnths off in the summer as we do to forget what little our kids learned the past year.
    Again, it’s all in how you phrase it. 20 days more is not a lot, but maybe it’s crucial. I don’t know, and you offer no evidence that it is. I d know now that in Australia, they get 13 weeks off in that year–two week braks between their three semesters, and a seven-week break between academic years. However, I agree with you that our agrarian-style summer vacation is not necessary.

    Do you even grasp that when public schools fail, as they are now, that it impacts not just the lives of those poor kids, but ALL of our lives.
    I couldn’t agree more. But they’re not failing. Here in Washington, “we have soared by many measures from the middle of the pack to the top tier of states academically. In 2003, Washington students, as a group, earned the highest average SAT scores of their peers in states where at least half of students take the test. From 1993 to 2003, the average SAT score of Washington students rose 41 points – only six states have better long-term gains….In 2003, Washington students, as a group, posted the second-highest average ACT scores in the country. For each of the past 10 years, Washington consistently has been one of the top five performers on the ACT…Washington scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress are consistently at or above the national average, and in some cases significantly above that average. For example: In 2002, Washington fourth-graders posted the fifth-highest writing scores in the nation.”

    That you would even consider we would, that anyone would “all WANT public schools to fail” clearly shows you care less about the children than you do about your ideological agenda of insult, criticize and blame.
    There’s that tendency to project I was talking about.

  194. 219

    Curtis Love spews:

    More school days (Japan has 240 to our piddly 180 – the union says “NO”.
    You argue elsewhere in here that merely BEING in school is not the same as being educated, yet here you argue the opposite.
    Vouchers – the union says “NO”.
    Vouchers are a bad idea that does not measuably improve education. And don’t try to bring in hired-gun Peterson or I’ll have to bury you there.
    Charter schools – the union says “NO”.
    Umm, those were voters. Twice.
    Local control – the union says “NO”.
    Surely you have heard of school boards.
    Homeschool – the union says “NO”.
    Home schooling is allowed by law. Someone as smart as you should know this.

    And let’s talk about those piddly 180 days. They are NOT 180 FULL 6 HOUR DAYS OF EDUCATING. Call a 3hour 1 min day an early release and SURPRISE, it’s considered a full day of school. Australia, England, most of Europe go for at least 200 days. And that’s year round – they don’t take 3 mosnths off in the summer as we do to forget what little our kids learned the past year.
    Again, it’s all in how you phrase it. 20 days more is not a lot, but maybe it’s crucial. I don’t know, and you offer no evidence that it is. I d know now that in Australia, they get 13 weeks off in that year–two week braks between their three semesters, and a seven-week break between academic years. However, I agree with you that our agrarian-style summer vacation is not necessary.

    Do you even grasp that when public schools fail, as they are now, that it impacts not just the lives of those poor kids, but ALL of our lives.
    I couldn’t agree more. But they’re not failing. Here in Washington, “we have soared by many measures from the middle of the pack to the top tier of states academically. In 2003, Washington students, as a group, earned the highest average SAT scores of their peers in states where at least half of students take the test. From 1993 to 2003, the average SAT score of Washington students rose 41 points – only six states have better long-term gains….In 2003, Washington students, as a group, posted the second-highest average ACT scores in the country. For each of the past 10 years, Washington consistently has been one of the top five performers on the ACT…Washington scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress are consistently at or above the national average, and in some cases significantly above that average. For example: In 2002, Washington fourth-graders posted the fifth-highest writing scores in the nation.”

    That you would even consider we would, that anyone would “all WANT public schools to fail” clearly shows you care less about the children than you do about your ideological agenda of insult, criticize and blame.
    There’s that tendency to project I was talking about.

  195. 220

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 212

    This is in two parts…part 2 went first by mistake…

    What programs do we want to block? Which do we want to “disapppear?
    Right now it’s the $10 million you don’t want to go to public education.

    In fact, big mouth, name one word, one phrase, one sentence, ANYTHING where we claimed to want “WANT public schools to fail”.”
    I didn’t say anyone said it. I just got that this is what your chorus is really saying behind the words.

    You can’t. Once again, a liberal devoid of ideas succumbs to SODDI strategy.
    I am not an educator, nor do I claim any particular expertise in educational affairs. But I can read, and what I read tell s me that public shcools are not failing, and that you therefore are lying when you say they are.

    The FACT, curtis, is that public schools ARE FAILING.
    Not fact.

    We have allowed massive amounts of money to be thrown at them for 40 years. We have seen every single goofy nutburger idea trotted out by progreesives foisted on OUR children like little human lab rats.
    No, we have paid for public education. It’s not free.

    I guess that’s what Hitlary meant
    Nice. you’re a dick, too.

    “The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study studies students in 46 countries. In 2003, it found that American fourth-graders trailed students in 11 other countries. As if that wasn’t bad enough, by eighth-grade, American students trailed 14 countries. There’s a similar trend in science.”
    It’s all in how you phrase it, isn’t it? Here’s what the TIMMS site says:
    In 2003, U.S. fourth-grade students exceeded the international averages in both mathematics and science. In mathematics, U.S. fourth-graders outperformed their peers in 13 of the other 24 participating countries, and, in science, outperformed their peers in 16 countries.
    In 2003, fourth-graders in [only] three countries-Chinese Taipei, Japan, and Singapore-outperformed U.S. fourth-graders in both mathematics and science, while students in 13 countries turned in lower average mathematics and science scores than U.S. students. Among the 13 countries in which students were outperformed by U.S. fourth-grade students, five countries are members of the OECD (Australia, Italy, New Zealand, Norway and Scotland), and three are English-speaking countries (Australia, New Zealand and Scotland).
    In 2003, U.S. eighth-graders exceeded the international average in mathematics and science. U.S. eighth-graders outperformed their peers in 25 countries in mathematics and 32 countries in science.
    Eighth-graders in the five Asian countries that outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in mathematics in 2003-Chinese Taipei, Hong Kong SAR, Japan, Korea, and Singapore-also outperformed U.S. eighth-graders in science in 2003, with eighth-graders in Estonia and Hungary performing better than U.S. students in mathematics and science as well.

  196. 221

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Except, little curtis THEY HAVE AND ARE DUMBING DOWN THE CURRICULUM which is why HOMESCHOOLED kids are flying past public scholl kids in ANY objective measure, which is why PRIVATE school kids move into college without remedial classes, which is why public school AP classes are little more than the “normal” classes at private school

    When you dumb down the expectations, OF COURSE more will “succeed”. It’s just too damned bad that “success” leads to failure and dropout in college.

    Case in point: I know of 3 young women from the same area, all best pals, all the same age, all graduated at the same time, all from the same socio-economic background, all became roomates at Gonzaga.

    2 graduated from AP classes at local public school and 1 from “normal” classes at local Catholic HS.

    When they got to Gonzaga, the 2 public school AP graduate COULD NOT EVEN WRITE A COHERENT PAPER. They were “encouraged” to drop the class they were attempting and get into remedial writing class…quickly.

    Dropping expectations so it appears kids are improving is NOT success.

    Case in point: In 1995 the SAT was made less difficult and “re-centered” so as to raise scores by about 100 points. Big whoop de do for a kid that gets a 600 now… it’s meaningless.

    Let’s reinstate a few of the tests and measures from 30 years ago, from 20 years ago, from 10 years ago and see how “successful” those results are.

    How many of today’s 8th graders pass this test? Hells bells, how many 12th graders or college sophomores?

    Here, do some reading:

    http://www-hoover.stanford.edu....._0101.html

    http://www.ourcivilisation.com/dumb/index.htm

    http://ourcivilisation.com/dumb/dumb2.htm

    http://www2.whidbey.net/jmboyes/graydon9.htm

    http://www2.whidbey.net/jmboyes/graydon10.htm

    http://newmedia.colorado.edu/w.....s/621.html

    I want my kids to have the BEST education possible, not the ‘mediocre least’ dressed up pretending to be best. I want that for all kids because THEIR education impacts MY life in every way, shape and form – from dealing with me in the marketplace to choosing leaders.

    I want my kids COMPETING against the BEST, not gaining success in an unfair fight that pits them against the ‘mediocre least’ pretending to be the best.

    It’s no different than sports – the BEST get better from challenges by their closest competitor and not by the least of their competitors

  197. 222

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    damned cheap ASS filter.

    I’m positive it’s held for too many links

  198. 223

    Curtis Love spews:

    ASS @ 221

    First, f@uck you and your “little curtis” B@ullsh@it. If you can’t handle it without belittling your intellectual oppnents, go the f@uck home, W@uss. ad hominem is the province of those without arguments. Thanks for informing us where you stand on that.

    What I get from your Hoover Institute link is that the Bushes speak at a 6th grade level. I think that was generous, but basically accurate. Otherwise, it looks like content-free partisan polemic pretending be scholarly debate. As far as I can tell, it’s the same op-ed stuff you guys seem to love so well that you beleive it to be the equal of truly scientific study. As usual, terribly unconvincing.

    I mean, really, a message board post? I do love the one bey.net post that claims “In 1658, after the Russians beat the Americans into space with Sputnik…” I am not making this up. Wasn’t Ivan the Terrible subduing Russia right about then. yes, I DO have a public school education. And no, for one who purports to know (which I don’t) your own education does NOT impress me much.

    SAT scores are rising in Washington state even AFTER your terrible year of 1995.

    And what are you saying: that ONLY the position of #1 in the world is acceptable? How far apart are the countries “ahead” of us? How relevant is this measure? The US is the envy of the world (or we were until Idiot boy took up residence at 16000 Penn. Ave).

    I don’t think you’re showing us much, and i think I made my point and then some.

  199. 224

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    Good, I’m glad you think you’ve made your point, and please keep championing failing schools instead of working to improve them. My kids will benefit EACH AND EVERY TIME they have to go up against a ‘mediocre least’ coddled and hoodwinked into thinking he’s the best.

    Just like my comment way ^up^ there abour affirmative action…

    You know, our oldest child (the one waiting for the Bar results) said one time that Affirmative Action in college and law school was the greatest thing since canned soup… it gave spaces in school to kids that didn’t have the educational backround/credentials to deserve them and as soon as they turned in a paper or a brief, as soon as they opened their mouths in class they immediately made those that earned those spots look like geniuses compared to them.

    … the poorly prepared mediocre make the well prepared good look EXCELLANT.

    And besides, we’ll always have need for workers in the service industries… those new fangled cahs registers don’t even make them count change anymore and you don’t need to read when you can push a picture button of a Happy Meal.