Go ahead, all you trolls, get it out of your system. It was an utterly crappy night for folks like me, and while I wouldn’t say any individual race was a surprise in itself, the fact that they nearly all went the wrong way (from my perspective) was a huge disappointment. Off the top of my head I think I only voted for three winners yesterday: the two Port Commission races and R-67. (And Alec Fisken’s victory isn’t entirely in the bag yet.)
A more thorough analysis later.
it is truly a sad day for the quality of life in the Puget Sound region…who would have thought that this area would become Kansas…hope the commuters are going to enjoy I-5 and the 5 bucks a gallon gas will cost next summer.
the 5 bucks a gallon gas will cost next summer.
I voted NO and I’d do it again. Five buck gas WILL motivate a transit package.
And Dems better be thinking big about tax reform. People need sales and property tax RELIEF. We need what 43 other states have and backwaters like Wyoming don’t: an income tax.
Hahahaha! Eyman wins! Yes! Liberals suck it big time!
it is truly a sad day for the quality of life in the Puget Sound region…who would have thought that this area would become Kansas…hope the commuters are going to enjoy I-5 and the 5 bucks a gallon gas will cost next summer.
———————-
I have news for you – they would have enjoyed I-5 and wherever gas heads next year, and the year after all the way to 2027 . . . and then beyond, with Prop 1. And they would have paid for this. The thinking on Prop 1 has left much to be desired.
A lot of people are feeling squeezed and anxious – energy and many other costs heading up, housing and credit woes constantly in the news, local taxes up, up and then still up , the economy growing shaky.
Prop 1 was a mess, and an expensive one at that. Under these circumstances it was a tough sell. Backers really missed the boat on it, in my view.
@2
Yeah right. I have been hearing that since the late 70’s. The one thing that I am going to take from this debacle of an election is that I am never going to support the Sierra Club again. Atleast not before they do some serious atoning.
At this point, I say let the state rot. If they don’t want to pay for maintenance and necessary infrastructure then don’t even try to finagle it by robbing Peter to pay Paul. Let them live with the consequences of their actions.
Haha, Goldy. Up your ass with a resurrection!
As I just posted in the last thread:
Alec Fisken NP 93229 49.08%
Bill Bryant NP 95955 50.51%
Write-in 780 0.41%
These are the latest results from the King Co webpage…this one may be another disappointment, alas.
But at least I-960, even if it passed, won’t pass constitutional muster.
There were some bright spots outside of Seattle. Many of the progressive majority-backed candidates won. Keri Andrews lost in Bellevue, but the two Tacoma area candidates from their Racial Justice campaign won. Bob Kelly won a seat on the Whatcom county council.
4 – Yep, I think you hit it pretty close.
The Daily Hague, cross-posted at the excellent SoundPolitics.com:
Glad to hear that the incestuous machine running KC elections is sure, very sure, they’ve suctioned and siphoned all bugs from the gears of all-mail (all-femail too, of course) voting. I mean, everybody knows they did a fine job of cleaning up the polls.
Yesterday, at my spot, the AVU Judge surfed for most of her shift. AVU = Diebold. Surfing = using a personal computer in the polling place. The poll-place Inspector assured me it was utterly innocent, but it directly violated instructions plainly stated in the KC Elections Guidebook, a policy & procedures manual.
Innocent it probably was, but think about the appearance of impropriety, of using a computer next to a computer-driven machine infamous for the alleged manipulation of its software.
Just another typical day in a county where elections are a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Democrat party.
As Churchill said, “In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.”
It’s time for the Ol’ Piper to be magnanimous, and it’s not time for anyone to rub it in. My cogent and insightful analysis of the results are over on Geov’s thread (would have put it here, but Geov works harder, gets up earlier, and, under prevailing early bird theories, copped my analysis for his thread).
What all you HA Happy Hooligans ought to take from this is that your’s isn’t the prevailing wisdom…even in this most left of left places on the left coast; there are voters outside the Seattle city limits who have opinions, too.
Postman’s “guess the winner” contest on his blog saw me pick only one incorrectly: 4204. R-67, when you think about it, has its victory in the same strain of pissed off thinking that prompted the tanking of Prop 1 and TIM EYMAN’S HOMERIC VICTORY WITH I-960 – HUZZAH, TIM, HUZZAH!!!
Fascinating to watch Satterberg and Sherman at their respective events last evening. Satterberg, in just a shirt and trousers playing not half bad R&R, confidently and calmly talked about returns, while Sherman, looking like a used car salesman with his eyes darting about as if he was expecting the sheriff to bust in the door momentarily with a warrant for his arrest, masked his seething discontent with a forced smile.
His Poopiness, Richard XII welcomes Bill Sherman to the exclusive perennial also ran club.
The people don’t regard getting taxed to death as either a privilege or a cross they must bear on behalf of “progressive” causes or issues, and the sooner the left figures this out, the sooner it will gain a true understanding of the popularity of Tim Eyman and his efforts.
BTW…the same love for rascals that makes Bill Clinton both popular and continually forgiven (we forgive him for continuing to put up with Hillary, don’t we?) applies in large measure to Tim. How can you not love a guy with that smile and enthusiasm?
If you don’t think Dino Rossi’s people didn’t see this coming, you’re not paying attention. The coming year ought to be fun for us political junkies regardless of persuasion.
Happy days are indeed here again!
The Piper
@4.
the cost will only rise…the time to act was long ago.
the dollar is losing value and should continue to do so for a generation or more.
keep on voting against your interest blamming the boogie-man-government for all the troubles you are about to face.
not just transit…but the loss our schools took…the loss our state revenues took and any hope of adding to the high standards in quality of life we enjoy in this region
If they don’t want to pay for maintenance and necessary infrastructure
They are only too happy to pay. They just don’t want to be gouged to death. Politicians in this state have reaped what they’ve sown by not showing any leadership on the tax base. This has totally distorted people’s attitudes towards the government and created Frankenstein monsters like Timmeh Lieman. Other states fund infrastructure out of the general fund – this one doesn’t. Other states have the tax base to pony up funds and get federal matches. Other states spread the collection pot around evenly and fairly and as a result, they get things done!
Either the Dems get it together and lead or people and businesses leave the State in droves and it sinks into a backwater. They barely have one more bite at the apple.
Haaaahahahahaha! Go Tim Eyman!
Looks like loser liberals get to STEAL less of our hard earned money thanks to upstanding citizens like Tim Eyman.
On KUOW this morning I heard an anti-Proposition-1 spokeman say “it costs too much, it takes too long, and it doesn’t do enough to address congestion.”
So all we need now is a plan that costs less, happens sooner, and reduces more congestion. And a free lunch would be nice too.
The Good: R 67 Passed, and the Seattle City Council Races went my way
The Bad: I-960 Passed, the simple majority for school levys failed, Bill Sherman Lost, and Prop 1 failed.
get to STEAL less of our hard earned money
Why is your money so “hard earned”? Is it because the boss man makes you work long hours on a salary while hanging the threat of shipping your job to Mexico or India?
He gets his stock options and perks – you get it in the shorts all the while buying the bullshit about how it’s all the “guvmint’s fault”.
Sucker.
@12
Keep on voting against your interest blamming the boogie-man-government for all the troubles you are about to face.
not just transit…but the loss our schools took…the loss our state revenues took and any hope of adding to the high standards in quality of life we enjoy in this region
—————
Great . . take this argument to the voters. Get out there and present this to them in community forums and listen to the feedback.
My suggestion is to understand why so many voted against Prop 1 – I think the degree of opposition surprised some people – and approach the problem constructively.
the excellent SoundPolitics.com
Now, I always get confused on this. Is that the one *with* or *without* the goatee?
As others have indicated, perhaps the problem isn’t the package, but the taxing structure?
This state has the worst tax structure I have ever seen (well, maybe Tennessee was just as bad). The poor and middle class bear the largest burden of the state and local taxes under the regressive sales taxes, which when combined with federal income and payroll taxes takes a pretty big percentage of their incomes. The wealthy in our state, however, get taxed at the lowest federal income tax rates (17%), don’t pay a state income tax at all, and have more money to invest or spend on political campaigns to keep their taxes low (such as keeping vehicle tabs at $35, even though they are driving a $125K vehicle). And the state’s B&O tax is a joke, rewarding big businesses but punishing the small business owner and start-ups.
It’s no wonder the wealthy in this state can mobilize the middle-class to reject any additional increase to sales or gasoline taxes, since the middle-class is already bearing the biggest burden.
If we fix the tax system, then we can afford to take on the transportation projects we have been putting off for the past 30 years, without a big tax increase to the great majority of our citizens.
# 15: No, all you need is “Governor” Gregoire on a soapbox, screaming that if we don’t Pay More Money the viaduct will collapse and kill us all.
Please recall that she did that already, to excellent effect, shrieking that doom was impending, hanging right over our heads. Meanwhile, Weird Al Gore was shrieking that we’d soon be catching waves off the top of Queen Anne Hill, but only if we Paid More Money to avoid having the water rise so fast it would kill us all.
Meanwhile, Gore was also shrieking that George Bush, who occasionally invoked 9/11 and who occasionally mentioned terrorism, was pandering and playing the politics of … fear.
Bit of a wake up call, isn’t it guys? You were so cocky and confident after the ’06 elections. Even here in Washington the voters aren’t quite as “progressive” as you might wish them to be. They actually,(surprise!)have a bit of old fashioned common sense. Coronating Hillary next year might not be as easy as you think.
I’m not gloating. One thing I do know after a lifetime of following politics. Never get over-confident.
# 19. Just a typo. Meant “the excellent horsesass.com.”
Check it, as they say, out. Far more informative than the obscene Goldstein knock-off.
If any of you lefties think the answer to yesterday is an income tax, then you haven’t lived in Washington very long.
Any politician in this state who proposes and pushes a state income tax signs and seals his own career death warrant; support for an income tax is the third rail of Washington politics.
More office holders have been crushed by that juggernaut than you will ever know!
What’s needed is for “leaders” to quit acting like eunuchs who guard the harem. Charisma-less Christine takes top honors in this regard.
And the magical aura surrounding light rail is looking more like the curtain that hides a humbug. Busses are looking better all the time!
The Piper
@ 20
rhp6033 says:
…If we fix the tax system, then we can afford to take on the transportation projects we have been putting off for the past 30 years, without a big tax increase to the great majority of our citizens.
——————–
we need to tax corporations at the levels we did in the mid 20th century.
Cruchon: your politics are simple. You want women in shackles and men over a barrel.
When those two things are working, life is just a paradise for you.
“I’m not gloating.” C’mon, Bill, you earned it. Apres today, the deluge. We’ll probably have very few gloat moments for the duration, so get it while you can.
Well yes, it’s a great day for the taxpayers! and anyone who wants a more accountable elections office in King County. Actually, things went far better than I even thought they would in most cases.
@ 24
Piper Scott says:
…And the magical aura surrounding light rail is looking more like the curtain that hides a humbug. Busses are looking better all the time!
———-
more busses = more traffic = more wear on roads = more road work projects = HIGER COSTS!!
support for an income tax is the third rail of Washington politics.
That needs to change or this state sinks into a backwater. Some people (like you) might prefer it that way but it’s no future for anyone with young kids.
I’m going to lose most my Liberal credentials, but Seattle City Council needs a little more balance and diversity. As far as the Port. Keep Fisken, show the rest the door.
The culture needs to be totally overhauled.
By the way, What will Richard Run for next?
Oh yea, hey Richard, thank you for sabotaging any chance to defeat Hague, by your last minute filing. According to some sources, had you not filed, King County Democrats could have pick a viable candidate who would not be required to pay a filing fee.
In my opinion Prop1 was doomed from the beginning. State trans planners were sent a message. Make “congestion relief” a priority, and drop the approach of “get folks out of single occ vehicles”.
Sound Transit? No more money until you show what you can do, what ridership actually looks like. The track record (pun intended) of delivering 70% of a project for twice the original cost is not exactly confidence building. We choose to hold our money until you prove you can deliver.
Pope? Enjoy your new party affiliation. I’m sure you are pouring over PDC filings as we speak….
@1 “it is truly a sad day for the quality of life in the Puget Sound region”
Hogwash! Families of ordinary means have been spared a nightmare” Unaffordable taxes for a pig-in-a-poke. Prop. 1 would have cost $47 billion. Do the freaking math: That’s over $20,000 for every man, woman, and child in the three-county area. Prop. 1 was spending run amok, coupled with poor priorities and misalignment of tax burdens with ability to pay. Puget Sound is a more livable place because we did not do this to ourselves.
The fishwrapper’s pontificators got it right in this morning’s obituary:
” … Proposition 1 was just too big … voters are sensible people. When in doubt, you don’t sign on the dotted line for billions to be collected over many generations. …
“The next step — and everyone knows there will be a next step — is for the Legislature and local and state officials to start talking about something smaller … voters are saying they feel the rising cost of living in this area and the spending has to stop somewhere. Affordability and price matter. …
“The proposal was rejected because it reached too far. Come back with something simpler, more manageable and with a more fathomable price tag.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....1ed07.html
I propose that fat-cat Democrat progressives put their bodies on the line and pay for their social consciences. Mr. Goldstein, posing as a progressive populist, is a capitalist whose assertion of property rights exploits the masses. He owns property. Let him and the rest of the progressive bourgeoise assuage their liberal guilt by displacing that portion of oppressive and regressive sales tax extorted from the poor and the unwilling.
Tax Goldstein’s capital gains and his capital at 100%+. Problem solved. Next?
Voters still have some unfinished business: We need to take away the Port of Seattle’s authority to tax us.
get folks out of single occ vehicles
Bullshit. It was always to give people an alternative to the SOV.
People rejected the financing and the grab-bag character. I was one of them.
Fisken, though, was unfairly tarred. If Bryant wins, that’s throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water.
We need to take away the Port of Seattle’s authority to tax us.
That would help. I’m all for that.
Last week, I woke up and realized how far we have fallen.
In the 1960’s we provided health care to the aged, food to the hungry, financed the space program and landed the first men on the moon, were by far the leaders in manufacturing methods, engineering, electronics, and computer technology. Of the five major commercial airplane manufacturers in the world, three of them were American (Boeing, Lockheed, McDonald-Douglas). We built an interstate highway system which cris-crossed the country in less than a decade.
Now we have no manufacturing base to think of, and are consuming the wealth accumulated by our parents and grandparents. (Read Warren Buffet’s last annual report, where he said as much). We rely upon the middle-east for our fuel, China for our products, and many middle-east and Asian countries as lenders to finance our deficit spending. The space race is no longer between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R., but between Japan and China, the U.S. having conceeded any further efforts in manned space exploration. Europe and Japan built high-speed rail networks decades ago, as well as urban transportation systems.
But here in the U.S., at the turn of the century, we are not building new train systems, putting men on Mars, or producing great advancements in technology. Our infrastructure is aging and crumbling. Instead of leading the world, we are crying that there is no way we could ever afford to build a tunnel under the waterfront, or replace a bridge across Lake Washington, or pay for a light rail line to get us from the suburbs to central business districts (or from one suburb to another).
God, what a bunch of wimps we have become.
And I do blame the Republicans. The “Reagan Revolution” only had the effect of starving investment into public infrastructure, the type which served as the catalyst for futher advancements, both private and governmental. At the time, they argued that putting money in the hands of the wealthy would allow them to invest and thereby create new jobs. But all it did was allow them to make more money buying and selling and dismanteling existing businesses, sending jobs off-shore so as to increase their profits, and also locating those profits off-shore so as to avoid any taxes or benefits to the American public.
Great job, guys. Time to step aside and let the adults take charge.
Undercover Biker Brother speaks truth. Smart Seattle is pushing us away from globe-killing transit (all those belching buses!) into being the cyclo-fascist paradise we all want it to be. $200 million today, $157 billion tomorrow for bike trails, and the earth is saved. Problem solved. Next?
From King County Elections:
Initiative Measure 960
YES NP 106464 43.59%
NO NP 137795 56.41%
@10 That would be a supervisor error, not a failing of KCE generally. KCE did prohibit pollworkers from bringing electronic devices to polling places. They did train inspectors and pollworkers. The fact one inspector failed to enforce it does mean the whole system is rotten. When you have 4,000 part-time pollworkers to supervise, there’s bound to be a few personnel supervision issues here and there.
Goldy, I’ve been watching and sometimes active (in minor ways) in Washington State politics for 25 years and I figured Prop. 1 was doomed to fail from the start. Mega projects without big federal and state dollars attached to them just don’t fly. Plus, the time lines for seeing any benefit from it were too long and the road building would have caused sprawl in Pierce and Snohomish counties. People are sick of sprawl.
Tacoma need rail transit to get around Tacoma, not to go to the airport. Normal people don’t go to the airport that often and when they do they call the airporter shuttle or their kids take them.
Still asking, Roger, which defunct economist from JFK’s council of econ advisors taught your Money & Banking? Was it (still asking) Walter Heller, the ash-heap Keynesian who preached that we could fine-tune the economy like a Strad?
@11 Calling Sherman a “perennial also-ran” is a stretch.
As for Pope, his determination to never get elected or have responsibilities of office has been vindicated again.
@42: Ever the apologist, when you’re not the anarchist.
I cannot risk any more taxes right now. It’s the economy. I’m afraid my job will go away. I see inflation is about to skyrocket. That’s why I voted down any new tax measures on the ballot.
When the politicians have the courage to stand up to Bush and take the steps to fix the economy for all, not just the corporations and I’ll feel good about more taxes.
The only way I’m in favor of a Income Tax is if ALL the sales taxes are deleted, Like Oregon. A one to one swap.
@12 Voting against bankrupting yourself strikes me as an utterly rational act.
I forgot to add Education. Here we are well into the 21st century, and we are still patting ourselves on the back, claiming that our education system is superior to that of most other nations. But now students in Europe and Asia (including Japan, China, S. Korea, etc.) are graduating from high school with better educations than most of our college graduates. (We still get good marks for encouraging “original thinking”, which is about all our students can do, since they haven’t acquired any of the accumlated knowledge of the last two milliniumm of recorded civilization).
And yet we still let 40% of voters block a school levy.
Great job, guys. Time to step aside and let the adults take charge.
rhp: Are there any adults left? All the little whiny kids have to do is point fingers and scream “socialist” and they seem to get their way.
This is their way: corruption (Abramoff, Cunningham) and hypocrisy (Rep. Curtis, Larry Craig and countless others).
@ 39
Instead of leading the world, we are crying that there is no way we could ever afford to build a tunnel under the waterfront, or replace a bridge across Lake Washington, or pay for a light rail line to get us from the suburbs to central business districts (or from one suburb to another).
—————————-
And what does “leading the world” have to do with funding bad ideas like Prop 1 or underground tunnels that cost too much?
————-
Great job, guys. Time to step aside and let the adults take charge.
————–
And who, exactly, is this?
The only way I’m in favor of a Income Tax is if ALL the sales taxes are deleted.
Would you settle for the lowest sales tax in the country? Remember, you tax what you want less of – in this case, we want less consumption more savings.
A good tax policy spreads the tax base around keeping each collection point as low as possible.
@15 “So all we need now is a plan that costs less, happens sooner, and reduces more congestion.”
Yes. You’ve summed up what was wrong with Prop. 1. While it won’t be difficult to come up with a better plan, we should shoot for the best possible plan. That requires:
1) Prioritizing projects based on transportation needs instead of political calculations
2) Scaling projects to taxpayers’ ability to pay
3) Matching tax burdens to (a) users of the projects (i.e., commuters and employers) and (b) ability to pay (i.e., less reliance on regressive taxes).
4) Better value for dollars spent (i.e., less gold plating, less extravagance).
Prop. 1, quite simply, represents PSOPM* out of control.
* People spending other people’s money
HJR 4204 isn’t dead just yet…
If it’s close the educational industrial complex will file for a recount.
Even EFF can’t afford to fight back.
We know the rest.
It’s why we conservatives can’t afford close elections, so I wait with baited breath.
Roger Rabbit says:
@12 Voting against bankrupting yourself strikes me as an utterly rational act.
11/07/2007 at 9:43 am
———–
wow!!! how do you argue against such a logical fallacy??
so you are willing to risk the future value of your community on a fear tactic??
hate to break it to you now Roger but we in the US have long been bankrupt…it’s called a deficit and that leads to debt.
most every state in the union plus the federal government run in red numbers…this is to make me worry NOW!!!
we are in the midst of 6 plus years of the declining dollar and you want me to hold on to losses now and not try to resolve a problem that will not go away but only cost us more when we are left with no choice.
or are you also hoping to sell the regions inferstructure to private interests so we never get a fix??
ask Illinios, Indiana and Pennsylvania if that was a good move….ask parts of California if selling their water was a good idea.
these actions were taken because people were affraid of ‘bankrupting’ theirselvs
@39 “Great job, guys. Time to step aside and let the adults take charge.”
Seems the ‘adults’ here in washington state (Dems) have been in charge for how many decades? Why is this state in the toilet? Cause of DEMS!
The Liberals gave over education to the NEA decades ago and that union put our public education in the toilet. Who has been in charge of the NEA and the teacher’s union for the past 40 years? THE DEMS.
The DEMS want to tax us to death to keep pouring money into unions and other crap they cant seem to manage (the US is behind a lot of third world countries in terms of graduating kids who can do math and read) and yet … you think you’re the ‘adults’ …?
Good grief…! Stop blaming the federal level for what this state has failed to do decade after decade.
@24 “If any of you lefties think the answer to yesterday is an income tax, then you haven’t lived in Washington very long. Any politician in this state who proposes and pushes a state income tax signs and seals his own career death warrant; support for an income tax is the third rail of Washington politics. More office holders have been crushed by that juggernaut than you will ever know!”
And this is an argument for what? Letting our state wither on the vine? Letting the affluent continue to skate while those of low and modest incomes bear a crushing tax burden?
You pretend to know this state, Crackpiper, but you don’t. What voters rejected in the past was a state income tax ON TOP OF the existing taxes. They’ve never been given a chance to vote on REPLACING the B&O and sales taxes with an income tax. The fact 45 other states have an income tax should tell you something. Do you really think Washington voters are so different from everyone else that we’d vote to continue taxing our poorest citizens at four times the rate we tax our richest citizens?
I draw the opposite lesson from yesterday’s results that you do. Prop. 1 went down because it was a bad plan financed with bad taxes. I-960 squeaked through because voters still fear the legislature’s solution to our state’s problems will be raising the existing bad taxes. But look what happened with R-67: A powerful industry throwing money and lies against it couldn’t stop it.
When tax reform comes — and it WILL come — the rich and powerful will throw money and lies against it. I predict they will fail, just as the insurance barons failed. Voters aren’t as stupid as you think. This state is going to have an income tax someday, and quite possibly sooner than you think. The third rail of Washington politics is not, as you think, a fairer tax system; it’s expanding and perpetuating the existing unfair tax system.
@29 You could pay for an awful lot of road resurfacings with the $27 billion that light rail fans wanted to spend.
again at 39…
thank your buddy Clinton for NAFTA and all the off shoring of jobs – that’s also Hillary’s ‘global village’ you can thank.
@44 That’s none of your business.
Roger Rabbit said “And this is an argument for what? Letting our state wither on the vine? Letting the affluent continue to skate while those of low and modest incomes bear a crushing tax burden?”
You can continue to write that lie or you can finally admit that those of us making over 90K a year pay the lion’s share of taxes.
Poor people dont make enough to be taxed much, if at all. In fact, the EIC is specifically FOR the poor – not anyone who makes over 90K a year.
At least tell the truth ONCE in a while.. if it werent for the ‘wealthy’ you lefties wouldnt even have a tax base here to get money from.
Ann says:
again at 39…
thank your buddy Clinton for NAFTA and all the off shoring of jobs – that’s also Hillary’s ‘global village’ you can thank.
11/07/2007 at 10:10 am
———
another great logical fallacy….that the Clinton’s are progressives.
no doubt WJC was the 3rd best elephant prez in our nation’s history….behind only Teddy Bear and Illinois Abe
me @ 63
sorry…that is a myth not a logical fallacy…my bad
@47 I admit to being a bomb-thrower. I’ll blow up every wingnut idea and whackwing foamer I can! I admit to being an a shill, propagandist, and shameless apologist for liberal ideology, Democratic candidates, and progressive projects. … You?
@55 Should have asked Zits for a date when you had the chance, Josef! Now you’ve lost her forever. Oh well … there’s always fresh liver to fall back on, right?
@63 … no doubt.
I love how ‘progressives’ never stop talking about Viet Nam or abortion or protesting, or raising taxes. I guess the 60s were so much fun, they all decided to permanently live there for the rest of their lives.
My best example of this just happened this week: Teddy Kennedy describing how waterboarding is ‘torture’ while conveniently forgetting (and thinking the rest of us forgot) how he left a girl to die in a submerged car.
Meanwhile, the rest of the country grew up and moved on to deal with real world issues.. they keep stomping their feet and trying to erect “Woodstock Memorials” in New York on the public dime. Thank God the adults in New York got that yanked … that could have been yet another embarassment for Miss Hillary.
@56 “we in the US have long been bankrupt”
Speak for yourself. I don’t run my household the way the lowest common denominator runs our government. I balance my budget every month. I spend what I have to, but save what as much I can. I invest where investing makes sense. And I don’t loan my credit card or PIN numbers to strangers.
@45…RR…
Well, Ol’ Bill is 0-fer in office seeking so far. That’s how perennials get started.
The Piper
@57 Uh-huh … and Bush’s fiscal management is a model Washington should follow? Yeah right. It isn’t Gregoire who’s devaluing your dollars.
Next up: $110 oil, brought to you by the designers of the Incredible Shrinking Currency.
Poor people dont make enough to be taxed much, if at all.
Bullshit. The poor pay taxes through rent, fees, sales taxes, all the little taxes on utility bills, etc.
Now let’s make a deal – would you trade a state income tax in the middle of the pack nationwide for property tax relief and the lowest sales tax in the country?
Is that an extreme lefty proposal for you?
@50…rhp6033…
Yet PhD candidates from all those places increasingly stream into American universities to get those advanced degrees, after which…they stay, legally or otherwise!
They like American freedom, lower taxes, greater opportunity…
I see them all the time, and the thought of returning to the old country is anathema to them!
The Piper
YLB says at #26, “Cruchon: your politics are simple. You want women in shackles and men over a barrel.
When those two things are working, life is just a paradise for you.”
A cheap shot, to be sure. There is however a vast portion of the world where women truly are in shackles. Liberals such as YLB don’t have the guts to talk about it because it would turn their world view on its head.
Roger Rabbit says:
@56 “we in the US have long been bankrupt”
Speak for yourself. I don’t run my household the way the lowest common denominator runs our government. I balance my budget every month. I spend what I have to, but save what as much I can. I invest where investing makes sense. And I don’t loan my credit card or PIN numbers to strangers.
11/07/2007 at 10:22 am
——–
you carry no debt???
i find this hard to believe…no car loan?? no home loan?? no CC balances??
There is however a vast portion of the world where women truly are in shackles.
Yeah, you have more in common with those people than you’ll ever know.
@62 “You can continue to write that lie or you can finally admit that those of us making over 90K a year pay the lion’s share of taxes.”
Bullshit! You’re the liar. The Gates Commission found the top quintile pays only 4% of their income in state and local taxes, while the lowest quintile pays 17% of theirs. Given that our state taxes households inversely to their income, the lion’s share of tax collections come from middle income households. And even in this age of irresponsible Republican fiscal policies and collapsing dollars, 90K is still not “middle income.” That would be a LOT of money for most working families.
I see them all the time, and the thought of returning to the old country is anathema to them!
Not so – many Indians and Chinese see the opportunities as increasingly greater in their home countries.
@67 No, only half the country grew up. The rest are Republicans permanently stuck in the Terrible Twos.
Boy are you nasty, YLB. So typical of lefties. Imagine how incensed you’d be if I implied that you treat your partner the way you, without any possible evidence, and just out of pure political ugliness tell me how I treat my wife of 29-years. Fuck you.
@62: You say:
We’re talking about state taxes here Anne. What you are talking about is federal taxes. What do the feds tax? Income!
What should the state tax?
Income!
I have to agree with Roger that the election went the way it did mostly because of our screwed-up tax system.
It’s time to use the Democratic majority in Olympia to change the tax structure in this state.
It is the political third rail in Washington. Maybe it’s time for our leaders to take one for the team. I believe it could be sold by eliminating many of the other state taxes that are currently being collected, and an emphasis on the essential fairness of an income tax system.
@69 I believe that’s 0-for-2, Cracker. He ran once for the legislature and lost, and ran for prosecuting attorney and lost. Hardly indicative of Sherman’s abilities either as a campaigner or a public servant. And comparing Sherman to Pope is absurd. Pope is indeed a perennial candidate, filing for everything, doing little campaigning and no fundraising, running for everything and standing for nothing. Richard Pope’s loss against Jane Hague — pulling his customary 41% of the vote — proves you can’t get elected by campaigning AGAINST weak or even crippled candidates; you can get elected only by showing voters YOU have something to offer, and convincing them you can deliver the goods. Richard has utterly failed to do that, and that’s why he has utterly failed to gain anyone’s confidence in what he would do with his not-inconsiderable intellectual abilities.
Well, let’s everybody calm down. We knew every wingnut that even knows about this blog would be in here incinerating the joint. We’ve even had a visit from Puddybud, who swore (his word is his bond, remember) never to contaminate the joint again with his presence, under his own name instead of sockpuppeting like he usually does.
This is not the end of the world. You sure as hell are not going to have the same people in here after 2008.
They will be using different identities and claiming election fraud.
I just realized, the NeoCons have won. They have screwed up the economy so bad, they can just justify the strangling of government.
Now chadt, I think a little good natured teasing is appropriate. The truly mean comments of some here aside.
Politics is a very fickle mistress. I’ve learned to take the ups and downs in stride. Politics is not a religion for us conservatives. For you on the left, it’s a crusade. Lighten up.
@85: Politics isn’t a game either, Bill.
We’re talking about what kind of city and state we want to live in and for some of us, what kind of place our kids will take over.
That’s worth taking seriously, not “oh well…win some, lose some.”
-OM
” just realized, the NeoCons have won. They have screwed up the economy so bad, they can just justify the strangling of government.”
Where do you get this silliness? I guess you all tell each other the same lies enough that you believe them. I can walk less than a mile from my house and see plenty of help wanted signs. If you want to see a “screwed up economy” maybe you have to be as old as me to remember when we had double digit inflation, gas lines, and few jobs to be had back in the Carter years. I imagine most of you are too young to remember. I lived through it. Blockheads. The world is your oyster and you don’t know it.
“I can walk less than a mile from my house and see plenty of help wanted signs.”
It’s not possible a raise my family, to raise my family on minimum wage.
The head of the Fed is going to lower the Prime Rate until a Democrat is elected then he’s gonna raise it to roof. Carter all over.
We had the pain of the Carter years because of the mismanagement of Republicans before them. It happened on his watch, so he gets the blame, even though it’s not his fault.
I can walk less than a mile from my house and see plenty of help wanted signs.
Where? Wal-mart?
@75 “i find this hard to believe…no car loan?? no home loan?? no CC balances??”
Of course there’s a home loan … how else can you pay Seattle housing prices on a working class income? But we’ve refinanced twice to lower the interest rate and shorten the loan term, and make extra payments of principal every month, and now its market value is 93% owner equity.
Of course there were car loans … when your job requires a car, how else do you buy one on a working class income? But the 5-year car loans were paid off in 22 months, and now there’s no car loans.
Of course there’s a credit card … because that’s the only way you can buy airline tickets needed to attend weddings and funerals, and because it’s a good way to avoid carrying cash in public, and a convenient way to keep track of your purchases, and a great way to get a credit card company to go to bat for you if you get into a dispute with a merchant or manufacturer over the quality of something you purchased, plus you get points redeemable to merchandise or air miles by buying groceries and gas … there’s just so many reasons to have a credit card.
But there’s only one credit card, which costs nothing, because it’s a no-fee card and is paid in full every month, so there are never any interest charges.
Any more questions?
#86,”@85: Politics isn’t a game either, Bill.
We’re talking about what kind of city and state we want to live in and for some of us, what kind of place our kids will take over.
That’s worth taking seriously, not “oh well…win some, lose some.”
-OM
Exactly my point, OM. You libs take politics as if it were some kind of crusade. That wouldn’t be because you are socialists, would it? You think government is the solution to everything. Therein lies the difference.
Imagine how incensed you’d be if I implied that you treat your partner the way you
I’m sure you treat your wife just fine, it’s just other women who you don’t want to have freedom or autonomy – even one microsecond after conception.
Yeah typical rightie.
“It’s not possible a raise my family, to raise my family on minimum wage.”
Only liberals actually believe they should be able to raise a family on minimum wage.
Knuckleheads.
They have screwed up the economy so bad, they can just justify the strangling of government.
That’s exactly the right wing game. Starve government of funds and the services they provide only worsen in quality, then that motivates further starvation.
In short, keep building the resentment, the hatred, the ill-feeling. Never talk about how to improve things or participate to make things better.
You eventually have the perfect state for the right winger – a banana republic.
@86 We’re talking about more than that. Over the last 6 3/4 years, Republicans have incinerated a lot of people and destroyed a lot of lives with their warmongering, torturing, bombing of women and children, market-rigging and thievery, and just plain incompetence. Politics does matter. Who wins matters. What ideology prevails matters. That’s why I’ve been involved in politics whole-hog for 50 years; that’s why I opted for a personally-unremunerated career in public service; that’s why I’ve donated countless hours of unpaid volunteer work to campaigning and community activities. I don’t want the Hitlers, Stalins, or Pol Pots to win. I don’t want the scorched-earth policies and looter governments of a Dick Cheney, George W. Bush, or Dino Rossi. It matters to me, it’s not a game, and I play to the evil and selfish elements of our society and the base elements of human nature in their proper place, which is ignominous defeat.
Fuck you.
Back at you.
play to keep the
Wow! This thread is already up to 100 comments! The only way the proprietor of the sucky little competing blog can get 100 comments is by tape recording himself and playing it back 100 times.
100th post!
And they are such intelligent, well considered comments, aren’t they, Roger?
The job that “I” see, when I walk around, are minimum wage jobs. So while there are jobs available, but they don’t pay enough to live on, let alone support a family.
Why shouldn’t a family be able to live on minimum wage? What is a person supposed to do with their family IF they had to take a minimum wage job? Can they come live with you, Bill Cruchon?
@58…RR…
Rog, take off the left-lens-only rose colored specs…You admit to being a shameless ideologicial pimp, but when it comes to analysis, you have to be coldly objective…even and especially when it hurts or goes against you.
The words “state income tax” in any form or fashion is a death sentence. Since before the days of Dan Evans, income tax proposals have been DOA. If they’re such a good idea, wouldn’t Taxenor Gregoire propose one? And the overwhelmingly Democratic legislature pass one?
And grinning Tim Eyman initiative it right into the ground?
You were right on condemning Prop 1, and I repeatedly applauded you for that, but your big picture reading of the tea leaves is 180 degrees off: the people said to King County and Olympia big shots and pocket-pickers, “Buzz off, bozos!”
When not even 4204 can get any traction, that’s a real message.
The Piper
@77…RR…
The issue was amount paid, not percentage of income.
I’ve posted those numbers before, but post-electoral euphoria prevents me from digging the numbers out again.
Suffice to say that the top income earners pay most of the taxes paid.
The Piper
“Why shouldn’t a family be able to live on minimum wage?”
Because it’s called the “minimum wage”. I worked for minimum wage when I was a kid. If you are willing to do a little hard work you won’t be making “minimum wage” for long. But you’re evidently a communist that thinks government should be there to provide for you. That’s just immature, silly, feel-goodism. A little reading of history will show you that communists have never advanced civilization. Most of civilizations’ advances have been due to (gasp!) capitalism. The sooner you realize this the better your life will be.
Yes, yes, yes, I get your idealogical (just as bad a liberal) stance that minimum wage jobs should not pay enough to live off. Those jobs are for people who are living off of someone else, like kids.
Now, how do you deal with the reality of people who are trying to raise a family and all they can find are minimum wage jobs? Who do they live off of, in your world? Who supports them until they can find a better job and earn a living wage that is not in India or being done by an illegal?
We won’t be able to pass all but the most minimal and most critical tax increases until the economy improves for the middle and working classes.
@42: My Inspector yesterday was a Democrat and lapsed lawyer, like you. Hell, probably WAS you.
Back to taxes: What part of democracy don’t you Democrats not understand? Make state taxes discretionary, and take them from the obscenely abundant discretionary unearned incomes of progressive plutocrats. Let the poor and unwilling opt out.
Goldy’s social conscience is roiled by our regressive sales tax? Then let him let the rest of us off the hook by taking up the slack. Nothing, absolutely nothing, prevents him or the rest of you with your tenderly bleeding hearts from sending more money to Christine, or sending lots more money to Christine. Put your bodies (such as they are) on the line and put your money where your big mouths are.
Want precedent? I had a gig as tax collector for the welfare state. Encountered, while on deadbeat patrol, Seattle’s own Archbishop Hunthausen, who was permitted to opt out of the VietNam portion of his federal tax. In distinction to tax rebel Gordon Kaul, who paid with his life for being civilally disobedient to IRS, Hunthausen was allowed to live long and prosper.
Give us Gregoire-tax rebels the same consideration. Let us back off while you drinking liberals step up and liberally part with your money. You have it. Olympia wants it. Give it up.
Top 5% pay 70%+ … if memory serves.
@99: Smarter, therefore fewer, people at Brand X. Stefan does not suffer fools. That’s why you, I, and the rest of us are here, not there. Piper being the only exception.
“Now, how do you deal with the reality of people who are trying to raise a family and all they can find are minimum wage jobs?”
The only people that can only find minimum wage jobs while shouldering the responsibility of raising a family are people that have bought into the liberal picture of the country as a land of misery and hopelessness.
Oops. Unintended double negative in #107. Not appropriate to a lovely day in which all the angels are smiling and singing in celestial harmony.
So you are not going to answer the question, you are just going to start name calling? You don’t have an answer? I win.
Name calling? Where?
@109…SwithS…
It’s an ugly but necessary job, and someone has to do it…
But…I’m long on stock in companies making blood pressure medication, so the payoff from my driving HA Happy Hooligans’ up is paying off handsomly!
The Piper
@77…RR…
Here are those tax numbers…just for you!
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi /04in06tr.xls
96.70% of all taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners.
84.86% of all taxes are paid by the top 25% of wage earners.
69.19% of all taxes are paid by the top 10% of wage earners.
57.13% of all taxes are paid by the top 5% of wage earners.
36.89% of all taxes are paid by the top 1% of wage earners.
Again, this is from IRS generated data for 2004.
Here’s a fair-share tax plan: Divide the number of people in the U.S. into the amount of revenue needed, and send each a bill for their share. No deductions, exemptions, strings to pull, or anything.
The Piper
@61 and 44:
Rodent won’t answer. He may be exposed for his med. coupons, food stamps, and gov’t cheese benefits. He’s a taker, not a giver.
If the best you can do for your family is earn minimum wage then why did you have children? Obviously you are a bad parent.
“If the best you can do for your family is earn minimum wage then why did you have children? Obviously you are a bad parent.”
Exactly.
Liberals don’t get this. Everyone in their world is a victim. How sad is it that they live in paradise and refuse to realize it?
Bill Cruchon says:
“If the best you can do for your family is earn minimum wage then why did you have children? Obviously you are a bad parent.”
Exactly.
Liberals don’t get this. Everyone in their world is a victim. How sad is it that they live in paradise and refuse to realize it?
11/07/2007 at 12:44 pm
—————
then can i assume you would favor ending the bailouts of Mortgage companies??
that you support the government forcing corporations to honor the agreements made in retirement pensions (NOT 401Ks) and not pass the burned to federal tax payers??
that you support leaving Iraq yesterday??
you would like this e-book i’m sure
http://www.conservativenannystate.org/
@91: Hey Bill, were you born retarded or drink yourself into that state?
“You libs take politics as if it were some kind of crusade. That wouldn’t be because you are socialists, would it?”
Yep, caring about my government makes me a socialist, just like those noted socialists Washington, Jefferson, Payne, Franklin…
Do me a favor, Billy. Since politics doesn’t really matter that much to you, whyn’t you just stay home next time? Let those of us who give a rip decide how things are run.
OK by you? After all, “win some, lose some.”
-OM
This “terrible” economy is at near 100% employment. 95.3% employed.
If the state of our economy is so bad, why do so many risk their lives to get here and work here?
The fact is, nationally, the poor don’t pay taxes. We already engage in massive wealth redistribution. Democrats in this state whine and whine about our “regressive” tax system, yet last I checked they “owned” the legislature, Gov. mansion, and Supreme Court.
Quit Whining!
There is plenty of money already for education, public safety, roads and transit etc…. Demand better from leadership. Maybe if we didn’t buy fancy toilets for the crack dealers and hookers, we couild have given some teachers raises? Drunk Hotel???? How many childrens school lunches could that have bought?
The WA Democrats have themselves to blame for making bad decisions and having FUBAR priorities. AND then whine when the citizens have the nerve to say “enough is enough, keep your hands out of my wallet”
You aren’t all over the map are you, Undercover Brother?
We could also have a rousing discussion of why liberals opposed Social Security reform,(and lied about it being a scheme to “privatize”it), too. Liberals have a huge interest in creating as much government dependency as possible.
Bottom line? Liberals want a permanent class of dependent people who feel hopeless so they can pander to them. Is that not sick? Wrecking people’s lives in this way is truly despicable. Liberalism is not compassionate. Liberalism does its best to destroy people’s hopes and dreams. Don’t buy into this garbage.
then can i assume you would favor ending the bailouts of Mortgage companies??
Absolutely, those companies should be allowed to fail. It’s called letting the market work.
that you support the government forcing corporations to honor the agreements made in retirement pensions (NOT 401Ks) and not pass the burned to federal tax payers??
Yup, if a corporation has not prioritized their obligations, and commitments, then the market will correct their mistakes…
that you support leaving Iraq yesterday??
I support the US leaving Iraq when 1) The Iraqi government asks us to leave. 2) The Iraqi government is able to provide security and the basic functions defined in their constitution. Otherwise we stay and kill as many Al Qaeda as possible while there.
OneMan at #119 spews, “@91: Hey Bill, were you born retarded or drink yourself into that state?”
The expected ad-hominem attack.
Can you cite to me,OM, any writings where Washington, Jefferson, Payne, or Franklin advocated anything remotely resembling socialism?
Oh and that’s “Paine”. My bad for not noticing that.
Hey Right Stuff, close your fucking bold, you moron.
Bill:
As much as I dislike having to explain your own arguments to you, it goes something like this:
You: “Quit whining ya libs, sometimes you lose, it’s no big deal.”
Me: “No, it is a big deal because the government we have has an effect on our lives.”
You: “Ooh, you…you socialist! Only liberals and socialists take elections seriously.”
Me: “No, you’re just a dumb fucker. The Founders cared about their government too. See how that makes your argument stupid?”
And yup, you got me on misspelling Paine. One for you.
trying to unbold the text
test
this is only a test
my bad
OM –
“The Founders cared about their government too.”
The founders set up a very limited government with a premium on personal freedoms, property rights, etc.
The Democrat plan is to have the government run our lives…
No Thanks.
@130 RS I get it. We could have all sorts of really interesting arguments about what the Founders intended to create, who wanted what (amazingly, they disagreed and had some pretty serious arguments about it) and how that translates to the 21st Century.
You don’t like the way the Dems want to do things. That’s your right and I support it wholeheartedly. We could have some pretty cool discussions about your interpretation of the Democratic “Agenda” (as if there’s a singular agenda) too.
That wasn’t Bill’s point, though. Bill pretty much said “only socialists care enough about how they are governed to take elections seriously” which, I asume, you recognize is utter crap.
And then, after calling every non-troll on HA a “socialist” and “libs” he has the gall to accuse me of ad-hominem attacks.
I’m not going to lay back and take that.
Continuation on the Income Tax issue:
No, it is not true that the poor don’t pay taxes in Washington State, and only the rich do. That’s nonsense, a continuation of the chanting of the Republican mantra which, if it applies anywhere, doesn’t apply to Washington State.
The poor pay sales taxes at the same rate as the rich, it’s just that virtually ALL of their income is taxes, as most of it has to go toward payment of basic living expense. The rich, on the other hand, are only taxed on what they actually spend in this state. If they regularly vacation elsewhere, they may not pay a sales tax on a good portion of their income (depending upon where they go).
Now, the last time an income tax was proposed in this state, the middle class was a lot larger (thanks mostly to strong unions). Now, there are is a lot more disparity between the classes (especially apparant on the Eastside, where I work). That may be enough to change the political mix in favor of tax reform.
OM says, “Bill pretty much said “only socialists care enough about how they are governed to take elections seriously”
I never said anything of the kind. I’m a conservative. I’m not for no government, I’m in favor of less government.
As to OM’s “dumb fucker” comment at #26. Big deal. Maybe I think you are a “dumb fucker” too. I don’t see how comments like that contribute to political discussion but they are par for the course at liberal blogs like this one. You still don’t have have intellectual honesty to cite me examples of what you stated about the views of Washington, Paine,etc..
By the way, for those of you who keep their heads in the sand and insist that Washington State’s economy is still doing great (better than other states), and that we should pretty much keep everything the same:
I grew up in Tennessee, and moved here in 1979 (to attend graduate school). At the time wages were about three times the wages in Tennessee, and the cost of living was about double what it was in Tennessee – so you still came out ahead living here.
Recently I checked the pay scales and cost of living in Tennessee. The cost of living is still about half of what it is here, primarily because of the lower price of housing. But the pay scales are only about 5% lower.
Here in Washington the cost of living has continued to rise, but our pay scales (for most occupations) has stagnated, especially in the past ten years.
But, if you want to keep playing Osterich, that’s up to you. Just don’t insist that the rest of us do, also.
@133: oh for god’s sake. They WENT TO WAR because they didn’t like how they were governed.
Ring any bells?
Or were you home-schooled?
Now you are just coming unglued. Can you not have an intellectual discussion?
I love it when lefties ultimately demonstrate that they are basically shrieking,unhappy children. You can pretty much count on it.
#114: You may have the last and only long position that’s worth having, except for crude futures. Short everything else.
=======
I love the smell of mapalm in the afternoon, but the smell I smell is probably the scent of flop-sweat liberal progressives, donning their gay apparel, rolling up their NPR hemp tote bags, and smoking them. Or maybe it’s the smell of a Magaret-Hamilton meltdown.
Don’t expect too many commenters here remember Margaret Hamilton, but her cackle still lives in the person of a particular Democrat Presidential candidate.
Today’s reports of liberal death are exaggerated. Today’s tax euphoria is premature. We really won’t know our correct attitude toward yesterday until Mr. Goldstein and my good friend Roger explicate the event tomorrow or after.
Mr. Goldstein’s on the depressive side of his swing, so we must wait for reality to re-emerge and for wisdom to begin. The rest of us, benighted in darkened rooms as we are, must be patient. We must not think too many thoughts without guidance. Mr. Goldstein’s beacon will shine again, when the uppers kick in, and his light will peek out from under its bushel to lead us on our way.
My good friend Roger also wants a few days to resonstruct reality, but his path is easier than Mr. Goldstein’s. Roger was right, for many wrong reasons, about the big one. We eagerly await his exegesis when we’ll learn if our Wednesday gladness was madness in disguise.
Bill! Yes! Great minds spinning in the same circles, and all that. My thoughts exactly. In fact, I pondered a post with this header: Rhymes With Bitch.
Billy, you were never interested in an “intellectual discussion.” You were interested in gloating over your win and name calling.
Congratulations.
“Today’s reports of liberal death are exaggerated.”
Yes, you are all doomed.
Ok, I’m teasing. It’s all part of the back and forth of politics. You liberals are going to win more battles, but not as many as the 2006 elections made you believe. My how you were full of yourselves.
What I think is interesting in this particular election is that liberal measures were repudiated despite liberals’ control of the media and educational establishments. Ouch!
OneMan can’t even answer an intellectual question I posed in response to his own claims back at post #124. So what does he do? Ad hominem attack, of course.
This kind of silly back and forth with “OneMan” should demonstrate to any rational reader the bankruptcy of liberal thought. I don’t get how liberals live with themselves. They make things up. They swear at you. They call you names. Rarely if ever do they mount a coherent argument. Why would you want to align yourself with these people?
Well, this is a good time for liberals to reflect on the dangers of overconfidence, and be pleased that the wingnuts think they have it made and they’re going to triumph.
@145: Besides the fact that “Socialism” wasn’t even a concept back in the day, what the Founders did or didn’t advocate is not the point. The point, as I’ve said several times now, is that people other than socialists, quite famous ones, cared quite a lot about how they were governed.
I called them “socialists” ironically but that apparently got past you.
You are either being intentionally obtuse or are in fact a retard. I’m leaning toward the latter.
This is getting tedious & tiring. No Rabbit to kick around any more. Will cash in and check out his nocturnal emissions (posts at 0100, 0102, 0103, 0105, 0106 … 0347, 0350, 0351, …) in the morning.
Oh, yeah. You guys have really thrashed us. You’ve shown us the error of our ways. We will repent and grovel before you.
You can count on it.
Alright, OneMan I’ll let you claim that you were being “ironic” when you made this statement hours ago: “Yep, caring about my government makes me a socialist, just like those noted socialists Washington, Jefferson, Payne, Franklin…”
Naturally you can’t make a sensible comment without referring to me as a “retard”. Gosh, I thought you sensitive, politically correct liberals would never use terms like that.
Oh how revealing liberal blogs like this one are!
The posts here, or at any other leftist blog, should lead any reasonable person to conclude that leftists,(at least those who post on leftist blog sites), are nothing other than angry, nasty, truly unhappy people who enjoy inflicting their unhappiness on as many people as possible. Hint to sane people; you don’t want to be one of these folks.
@151: true enough if you have no sense of irony or humor.
“true enough if you have no sense of irony or humor.”
Or of you are unable to respond with a cogent argument. I’m more than happy to tease,have fun with politics, and t take my lumps when I am wrong. But leftists seem obsessed with name calling, anger and made up,(Bush lied us into war), stuff. They never, ever, apologize for anything they say. Libs act like spoiled little 13 year olds. Don’t people reading these blogs ever notice? I come here on occasion just to prove the point.
@151…BC…
That’s why the Ol’ Piper is here…to teach the HA Happy Hooligans civility and manners, which is a thankless task indeed!
And @152…OM…
There’s always room for humor, but here most of what you get is pretty ugly and vicious, though I don’t count you among the crowd who does that.
The Piper
“That’s why the Ol’ Piper is here…to teach the HA Happy Hooligans civility and manners, which is a thankless task indeed!”
Aye Piper, (this coming from one who has a considerable amount of Scottish blood flowing through his veins).
As I said way earlier in this thread, liberals regard politics as a crusade. Older liberals such as Hillary Clinton have lived their entire lives wanting to impose socialism on all of us. She may be sincere but she is horribly wrong in my way of looking at the world. Winning the Presidency is the defining moment of her life. I grew up with people like Hillary. The big discussion in those days was all about “working within the system” to enact the final goal of socialism. I thinks that’s what Hillary is all about. I found those people to be unpleasant angry people back then, and I still do today.
Don’t get on your high-horse, Bill. You came to gloat. OK, so gloat, but don’t pretend that you’re here for intellectual discourse, and don’t be the Haughty Piper Scott and presume to judge the disposition and motives of those here.
You are free to judge our sanity, compare our apparent values with yours, and comment on the difference, but you don’t know the emotional state of anyone here other than yourself.
@156…Chad T….
Then what is your emotional state?
The Piper
Chatd, I’ve tried to engage in intellectual discourse as you can easily see if you take the time to read the ponderous comments above.
Comments such as you just made, ”
but you don’t know the emotional state of anyone here other than yourself.” You lefties are pathetic wimps.
I notice that despite being pathetic wimps those posting on this blog are more than happy to deliver all kinds of profane insults to people such as me who dare to disagree with your political point of view.
And need I add, a nasty entirely uncalled for post implying I have mistreated my wife of 29 years. This comes from someone who doesn’t know me from a load of wood. Really classy. Conservatives wouldn’t dream of making comments like that. Liberals that inhabit blogs like this think nothing of it, because they evidently never learned any manners.
” but you don’t know the emotional state of anyone here other than yourself.”
This kind of statement just cracks me up. Liberals are so pathetic that they are concerned about their “emotional state” after an election.
I don’t recall liberals being concerned about the “emotional state” of conservatives after the ’06 results.
Grow up.
So.
I went back and looked at some of Bill’s past posts, to get some context.
Bill is pretty clearly not interested in having a serious discussion of whatever the topic might be. With a few exceptions, he drops by for hit-and-run posts to call the HA regulars names and whine about liberal themes.
Every now and again he engages but mostly it’s a series of one-post wonders and he’s gone again.
His most constructive post was about bicycling.
The last time I tried to engage him, here, he never answered.
So Billy, just skip the happy talk about “intellectual discourse” because you are no more than the usual wingnut bloviator.
-OM
@91 And a conservative thinks the profit motive is the solution to everything, and government is the solution to nothing.
So … how much have profit motive-driven Boeing and Microsoft kicked into the transportation kitty lately? Doesn’t that usually work in reverse? You know — “if you want us to employ people to make XYZ here, you have to give us money and all kinds of stuff.”
@104 No, Crackpiper, you have it exactly backwards. The issue is percentage of income, not amount paid.
Here’s how that works. Let’s say Rich Asshole makes $400,000 a year and pays 4% in state/local taxes. That leaves him with $384,000 to live on. Now let’s say Poor Bastard makes $10,000 a year and pays 17% in state/local taxes. That leaves him with $8,300 to live on, which is impossible, so now Poor Bastard needs food stamps, housing vouchers, and Medicaid to survive. This is what you call a FUBAR tax system.
@104 (continued) It should be the reverse: Rich Asshole should pay 17% and Poor Bastard should pay 4% (if anything). Now Rich Asshole has $332,000 to live on, which is plenty, and Poor Bastard has $9,600, which still isn’t enough but allows him to buy over $100 more food a month than he could under the FUBAR tax system.
Now I suppose some WingNut Loudmouth (TM) will jump in and screech, “B-b-b-u-u-t-t that’s SOSHULISM!!! It’s CONFISCATION!!! It’s REDISTRIBUTIONISM!!!”
Well, if the basis of those claims is the fact that the rich guy has to pay 17% while the poor guy pays only 4%, then why wouldn’t it work the same way in reverse?
Isn’t the FUBAR tax sysrtem, under which the rich guy pays 4% while the poor guy pays 17%, socialism for the rich? Doesn’t the FUBAR system confiscate money from the poor guy and give it to the rich guy (who, after all, is more likely to get government contracts, drive on public roads, send his kids to state universities, and visit state parks)? Doesn’t it redistribute money from the poor to the rich?
Seems to me it does. So why is socialism for the rich OK, but socialism for trhe poor isn’t OK?
@105 Republicans are against minimum wage because they want taxpayers to pay their labor costs. Labor costs money, just like materials, plant, and equipment do. A worker can’t perform labor unless his minimum subsistence needs are met. When an employer doesn’t pay enough for his workers’ minimum subsistence, it has to be subsidized by taxpayers. Being against raising the minimum wage to subsistence level is the same thing as being for socialism for business owners.
@107 “Back to taxes: What part of democracy don’t you Democrats not understand? Make state taxes discretionary, and take them from the obscenely abundant discretionary unearned incomes of progressive plutocrats. Let the poor and unwilling opt out.”
OK, provided the unwilling also opt out of using public services taxes pay for. This means you can’t:
Drive on public roads and highways
Send your kids to public schools
Go fishing or hunting
Sue tortfeasors and debtors in courts
Call the fire department
Expect any protection from the military or police
Get government contracts
In short, you’re on your own … and it’s a jungle out there. Good luck in the jungle, loner.
@115 “Here’s a fair-share tax plan: Divide the number of people in the U.S. into the amount of revenue needed, and send each a bill for their share. No deductions, exemptions, strings to pull, or anything.”
OK, as long as everyone does there share of the fighting and dying in Iraq, too.
their
Actually, I think Crackpiper might be happier under a royalist system. I would, too. When assholes like him refuse to pay taxes, the king sends an army to burn their castles and cut their fucking heads off.*
* Just kidding! Ann Coulter humor.
@148 Never leave my fans disappointed, I always say.
@148 (continued) I’m nocturnal. So fucking what? I’m a rabbit, dumbass.
@151 “The posts here, or at any other leftist blog, should lead any reasonable person to conclude that leftists,(at least those who post on leftist blog sites), are nothing other than angry, nasty, truly unhappy people who enjoy inflicting their unhappiness on as many people as possible. Hint to sane people; you don’t want to be one of these folks.”
And you are what? A masochist? I notice you spend a lot of time here.
@159 “This comes from someone who doesn’t know me from a load of wood.”
You’re right. I can’t tell the difference between you and a load of wood.
@160 “I don’t recall liberals being concerned about the ’emotional state’ of conservatives after the ‘06 results.”
That’s not true. I personally sat under the Aurora Bridge to watch Republicans jump off, and applauded every time anther one hit the water.*
* Just kidding! Imitating WingNut (TM) humor.
Roger Rabbit says:
@104 (continued) It should be the reverse: Rich Asshole should pay 17% and Poor Bastard should pay 4% (if anything). Now Rich Asshole has $332,000 to live on, which is plenty, and Poor Bastard has $9,600, which still isn’t enough but allows him to buy over $100 more food a month than he could under the FUBAR tax system.
Ahh the falicy of RR logic.
Any adult making $9600.00 is most likely taking state and federal assistance. Food stamps, SCHIP, Welfare etc etc etc.
So the truth is that the person making 9600 is actually taking tax dollars not paying tax dollars. Let’s remember that the 9600.00 wage earner pays 0 federal taxes and the person earning $332,00 is paying ~$86,000 in taxes. (according to 2006 tax tables)
We already live under a tax system that IS redistribution.
fallacy
“Can you do any better than name So Billy, just skip the happy talk about “intellectual discourse” because you are no more than the usual wingnut bloviator.”
Oh please, OM. Liberals are the same people that used to cheat at sports when we were kids. And then they whined when they got caught.
And for further proof look at what liberals are going to do with Initiative 960. They are going to court and will attempt to invalidate the will of the voters. Who takes aways “people’s rights”? Hint, it is not the Bush Administration. It’s the left.
Expected name calling soon to follow.
And as long as I’m sitting here, it’s a constant source of wonder to me why liberals are so angry. Just what is there to be angry about? Don’t try to tell me it’s the Iraq War. Liberals were mad as hell long before 911. It’s a fundamental requirement of post 1960’s liberalism to be constantly angry. Look at the face of Hillary Clinton. She’s been seething for 40 years. JFK wasn’t the kind of leftist that we’ve been inflicted with since the late ’60’s. Can any of you explain to me why you are so angry, and why you descend to name calling the moment someone dares to disagree with you ideology?
I know it’s a couple of days later and the discussion has already passed, but I thought of a much better question for Bill Cruchon.
“I can walk less than a mile from my house and see plenty of help wanted signs.”
If you lost your job, and you had to take one those jobs you were talking about, could you support yourself and the people important for you? Just wondering.