by Goldy, 02/26/2005, 4:10 PM

Without a doubt, HA has the most active and passionate comment threads of any political blog in the Northwest. While (un)Sound Politics still draws considerably higher traffic, my couple of posts a day regularly manage to generate a comparable number of total comments — an even more remarkable feat considering that that (u)SP has fourteen contributors, and comments are distributed across as many as a dozen posts daily. HA often receives over 200 comments a day, and it is not uncommon for a single thread to cross over into triple digits.

Much of the time I am superfluous to the raging debate, with comment threads veering off in unimagined directions, sometimes without any input from me whatsoever. While I am proud to have created a forum that has become an important part of your daily routine, I recognize that it is my readers to whom I owe my success.

I firmly believe that part of HA’s amazing growth is due to my oft debated policy of never banning what the other guys call “trolls.” I’m not talking about those passionate people on the other side, willing to debate the issues with respect for an open dialogue, if not with an open mind. I’m talking about the assholes (and you know who you are,) who when they see that they cannot win a debate, content themselves to disrupt it. Or the solipsists who ignore basic blog etiquette to promote their own agenda or websites.

For the most part, the HA threads have been self-moderating; while they sometimes get out of hand, and hopelessly off-topic (like today), you all have usually done a commendable job of policing each other. I do not want to be a schoolmarm or an editor. Banning people is philosophically problematic, and technically impractical as long as I allow anonymous posting. And if you can describe me as being a libertarian on any issue, it is on free speech.

But none few of us want the comment threads to devolve into pointless name-calling…though I have absolutely no problem with the pointed kind. This is not about sanitizing HA… this is about fostering debate — even angry debate — without getting sidetracked by personal attacks and retribution.

So I want to leave this as an open thread where we can all talk about how we can make HA a better place for public debate… what type of etiquette we need to enforce, and how best to enforce it.

Your comments, as always, are appreciated. (Except for you Cynical… yours are merely tolerated.)

189 Responses to “Open thread on open threads”

1. zapporo spews:

Post a link to http://www.soundpolitics.org with every thread.

2. Goldy spews:

Zapporo… why?

3. Adriel spews:

lol, come on man that is disrespectful even as much as I agree, lets not be the trolls we hate over there.

4. Adriel spews:

My question still stands Goldy, I didn’t see a reply. http://www.horsesass.org/my-comments-popup.php?p=467&c=1#comment-13344

5. marks spews:

Great post, Goldy (you lefty A-hole) ;)

To your point, I see both sides doing this, and I am not without blame. Each of us may have certain folks who we view as adversaries (this is my major problem, and I am working to correct it with exercize and proper nutrition). It may be the tone of the reply, the issue involved, or (the worst IMO) the lack of anything new for an argument/debate/discussion on an issue.

At times, we do okay, but passion descending into chaos can rule a thread faster than wildfire…

6. jon spews:

maybe it’s time to move over to a blogging platform that allows for community rating/moderation of content — something like Scoop (which powers DailyKos). That way, the trolls can have their say, and readers can be given the power to mute them. Plus, smart comments will be given more emphasis.

just a thought.

7. zapporo spews:

Goldy – Conservative and Liberal. Yin and Yang. Good and Evil. Right and Wrong. Election reform and denial. I think you see the patern emerging here. If you didn’t have conservatives (read: normal every day people) that criticized the extremist views in this blog, it would be 1) Very Boring 2) Filled with perverted felon drug dealer pieces and other such ilk.

8. Adriel spews:

it is still censorship of views you don’t agree with , if Goldy is really a Libertarian (Buffet Libertarian maybe) then he won’t stand for that.

9. RDC spews:

Goldy

I am a relative newcomer to reading and occasionally posting on your blog. I looked at SP and concluded HA is a richer stream to prospect in, even with all the iron pyrite swirling around in the pan. I have found that by generally ignoring the comments of the hip-shooters and name-callers, and focusing on those of the polite and thoughtful, I can learn much about local and state issues that a quick perusal of the morning papers doesn’t provide (or have my attention drawn to something important there that I missed). I am a liberal on most matters, and would be pleased if the remarks of certain posters would simply disappear, if only because they clutter the page without imparting any value. But I like to read (most of) the well-expressed comments of more conservative posters, like Marks, Richard Pope, zip, and others, and consider the annoyance of having to scan through the comments of those who rarely rise above name-calling, to be part of the price of admission (and, yes, they have their counterparts on the more liberal end of the spectrum). So, no bans, please. A ban might inadvertently keep from me something I should consider. The best way to treat a remark that doesn’t deserve any attention is to not give it any.

10. Josef the Dinocrat in Marummy Country spews:

I believe very strongly that you contribute much to the political debate w/ your blog. I like it as is, although your slant on things I disagree w/ from time-to-time.

Now, if only Tim “LIE-man” Eyman would come on down…

11. Susan Bourland spews:

The neo-cons hanging around here are certainly special. What do they get (personal, political, ego?) from posting over and over and over to an unresponsive/agressive forum. Friendless? I’m curious. I don’t like to swim in hostile waters anymore….

12. jim spews:

Thank you. I stopped posting on SoundPolitics because I was consistently demeaned by several folks. Some engaged in actual debate…but enough threw names, abetted by Stefan’s encouragement through his “what should we do with trolls and moonbats” posting offering lots of nasty choices.

I maintain that anyone who wishes to limited open debate:

1) has a confidence problem with the positions he/she holds
2) wants to share selective-fact based views only with others who share the appetite for slective-fact based views (e.g. closed minded ilk).

This scares me. Lots of closed minded folk, feeding on each other, can turn pretty nasty for the rest of us. History is replete with such occurrences.

Thanks again for taking a different path and allowing all (non-profane) debate/attacks to be aired. We’re all better for it.

13. marks spews:

RDC @9

But I like to read (most of) the well-expressed comments of more conservative posters, like Marks, Richard Pope, zip, and others,”

I appreciate the sentiment were that me you are talking about, but there is another Mark who posts here. That Mark has a better delivery, and fuller grasp of the subject matter IMO…unless you just meant all us Marks are cool guys…:-)

14. Dave spews:

Goldy, I appreciate how you’ve created an open forum and don’t censor people. You should keep it that way despite the antagonists who frequent HA because you are better than the right. We all have to live with their hypocrisy, cowardice, mean spirited insults, partisanship, etc. But the moment you change because of their behavior is when they win. Let people like Cynical turn themselves into icons for all that we stand against, they only end up making fools of themselves and yet are too arrogant to see how all they’ve done is harm their own self-serving interests.

However, I do think it’s great for you to draw the line and ban those who make continued personal attacks or who publish someone’s private information. Consider it a matter of security for your blog’s guests. We’ll back you! =)

15. martin ringhofer spews:

Goldy, et al.

I have only begun to get on http://www.horsesass.org/ recently, and it was because of a well known blogger Micajah, who has asked a lot of questions and made a lot of claims. As I read the posts on this site, I see a lot of thoughtful views which I suspect are quite non-partisan. That, Goldy, is where I am at: nonpartisan.

Without naming AM stations, talk radio hosts, bloggers, blog sites: all I see and hear is driven by partisans, except this site. The point you make, that no “trolls” are banned from this site for debating issues with respect for an open dialogue, is THGE ANSWER.

Right on. I believe this to be the future. A paradigm shift has taken place, the consequences of which will wipe out politics as usual, just as the recent Tsunami in Asia wiped out 250,000 lives. What is known and real today – will never be again. You and those who frequent http://www.horsesass.org/ are on to it.

I salute you and the FORCE “uplifting” http://www.horsesass.org/ for fostering debate.

Thank you all, especially Micajah, who un-intenionally turned me on to this site.

I look forward to participating in the ongoing healthy debate.

And, like Larry the Cable guy, from the lue Collar Commedy Show would say: GEEEEEEEET ‘R D O N E!

Martin Ringhofer
martinringhofer@aol.com

16. christmasghost spews:

Jim and Susan,
Please re-read what you both wrote. Not only do you contradict yourselves ,you contradict each other, yet I think you are on the same page….I think.
One of you stopped posting on SP because people attacked[disagreed with] you and the other immediatly goes to names….neo -con.And then implies that the conservative people such as myself that post comments here are “friendless”….not only is that childish, but highly innaccurate in most people’s cases. And have you thought about the fact that if your little barb[friendless] did sink ‘home’ with someone all you would have accomplished is making an already lonely person feel worse. Wow…that’s very enlightened and liberal of you, huh?
Are you for real?

17. jim spews:

Christmas:

Actually, you need to re-read my post. I never said anything about any conservative poster here…all I did is thank Goldy for allowing all (even opposing, though not profane views) to be aired publicly in his forum. Somehow you turn that into me calling people like you names? Please re-read one more time…I can’t imagine why you’d link me to that conclusion based on someone else’s posting.

Also, I did not stop posting because people disagreed with me. I stopped posting because I got a direct message, from a number of folks, that my postings were not welcome. The moderator himself took this battle to the community with many chirping in hungry agreement to limit non-agreeable views.

Things are much better over here.

18. Mark spews:

marks @ 13

Just lemme know where to send that case of scotch… ;)

I appreciate the kind words. And I definitely think that all of us Marks are pretty cool folks. I enjoy your posts, too. [Woohoo! Feel the logrollin'!]

In that same spirit, I find the opinions of those more to my left can be entertaining and even thought-provoking. Who knows, maybe my system has some built-up antibodies because my S.O. is a former Dem politico.

And, in the interest of stirring a little somethin’ up… I think that the “progressive” movement is misnamed. I think that RINO’s and DINO’s are the true Progressives. Why? Because they don’t let blind obedience to the party line guide them. If you think about it, the extremes of both parties are the flipside of the exact same coin — the Intolerant Right and the Intolerant Left. Unfortunately, the extremes have a loud voice in both parties. What the Progressive Middle needs to do is treat them much more like Weird Uncle Harold — the guy you have to invite to Thanksgiving dinner. Just nod and smile as he drunkenly rants, then spend the rest of the night talking to sane relatives.

19. bmvaughn spews:

I would just request a better comments system. I think this one is too clunky.

20. Susan Bourland spews:

Christmas,
First, “neo-con” is not a derogation. Last I checked you people still called yourselves that rather proudly. Am I wrong? What are you, then, personally?
Second, yeah, “friendless” is harsh, but I am serious about my inquiry. Why would a neo-con spend so much time in a group like this? Can you help me find out? Seriously, is it because they hope to make converts?

21. RonK, Seattle spews:

The case of Mr Cynical is extreme and serious. He appears disposed to to escalate his arguments here beyond the bounds of our “virtual padded cell”.

In the course of the “revote” controversy, both candidates have apparently received threats of severe physical harm. Members of this community cannot know how far Cynical might take his personal crusade.

At a minimum, Goldy should prevail on Dino Rossi and Mary Lane to personally disavow and denounce the poster known as “Mr. Cynical”.

22. Susan Bourland spews:

I think it’s because of an almost sociopathic contrarian urge that doesn’t get satisfied debating the finer points in his or her own group. An urge that only verbal bomb-throwing can quell. C’mon, throw a bomb!

23. Susan Bourland spews:

I just re-read Goldy’s initial post from which this thread springs. He wants to talk about how to make HA a better place for public debate. (Takes awhile to sink in). I say any non-censored forum is only as good/respectful as the people who participate. And as a newbie, I ask this question maybe naively: don’t you posters find that ignoring a problem poster keeps them quiet(er)? Is anyone guilty of taking bait they shouldn’t have?

24. Danw spews:

Ron K @ 21
I have to agree that Cynical, has crossed the line. Not only is he making threats to someones personel life, He almost always, has some personel attack at a blogger here in everyone one of his posts. (go back through the threads) Because he is self employed, he seems to be lacking the people skills to get his point across. when you work with other people you learn that you don’t go up and say…”Hey Stupid, I want you to do something for me. The person has tuned you out, no matter what you say after that.

I believe that Cynical needs to be punished. I have some ideas.
1. let’s get his life history and real name out here if he doesn’t seem to have a problem with. (Glass House built by the BIAW pension fund(IRS needs to visit that Church he writes off his tithings to)
2. Solitary…I say if his posts have anything similar to the personel attacks he so loves, that no one respond to him.
I am sure Chard will, but no big loss, it’s like a mirror anyway.
3. An appology is in order to our Moderator (let alone all his targets) for bringing such awful threats. Just because you are GOP, doesn’t mean your part of the Bush Mafia and can destroy people who don’t agree with you. ( list former white house employees)
4. Heck with the others, let’s just not respond to him, and he will go away…Goldy doesn’t have to do it we can.

25. Danw spews:

Oh I came up with a 5th one.

Just respond to him with STFU…shut the f–K up.

26. Don spews:

RonK @ 24

Cynical not only has no co-workers, he apparently has no clients either, as he spends ALL his time blogging on HA. Among other things, lecturing the rest of us about “hard work.”

27. K spews:

I read frequently and contibute on occasion. I thought Goldy’s slam on Mr. C in the previous thread was right on. I am an avowed liberal, but read the conservative view if it is reasoned. We need to hear what each other have to say, but threats to other posters should not be allowed.

28. marks spews:

Mark @18

Send it to my Weird Uncle Harold:

”What the Progressive Middle needs to do is treat them much more like Weird Uncle Harold – the guy you have to invite to Thanksgiving dinner. Just nod and smile as he drunkenly rants, then spend the rest of the night talking to sane relatives.”

Since my Weird Uncle Harold (actually named Emil) usually holds the party, I partake in the drunken festivities, if not the rants…

I recall your post dealing with the outrage that “progressive” has become synonymous in negative demeanor to “liberal”, and I share the feeling…

and then we have…

Susan Bourland – calling me neo-con (just kidding, I understand)…

”And as a newbie, I ask this question maybe naively: don’t you posters find that ignoring a problem poster keeps them quiet(er)? Is anyone guilty of taking bait they shouldn’t have?”

Guilty as charged. Naturally, as a former military guy, I automatically resort to engagement vice ignorance…may not be the best policy to follow…

29. RDC spews:

Marks @ 13 and Mark @ 18

Unfortunately, I know empirically that all Marks are not cool guys. Sometimes guys who think they’re cool are good marks, but that’s another story.

30. christmasghost spews:

Susan,
“First, “neo-con” is not a derogation. Last I checked you people still called yourselves that rather proudly. Am I wrong?”
Yes….quite wrong. Neo-con is quite insulting actually….rather similar to neo-nazi, you know? I don’t know anyone that is a conservative that calls themselves that….but I do know alot of liberals that, when peeved, throw that phrase around.
And “you people”??? that phrase is a little telling of your closed minded bias….my people? who would they be?
I don’t think anyone, least of all me, is looking for converts….to what? The human race?
I think we all just discuss issues from our points of view. We all know who is not worth talking to…the personal attacks, the assuming that if you aren’t in the same party you don’t have any right to an opinion……
It’s sad really. lack of intelligent dialog between people with different beliefs is what is giving the far right and the far left the over-loud voice they have right now. And I don’t think that’s a good thing.

31. christmasghost spews:

Jim,
I don’t think you should back down just because someone is nasty to you…stand up for what you believe.If someone at SP told you to not post….that is their great loss……..
and that’s not what we all have free speech for…….
i didn’t think you called any names….i just don’t want to see you stop posting over there…..
shameless plug…keep me honest… http://www.christmasghost.com

32. marks spews:

RDC – I actually have the same empirical data, but likely from different Marks…or marks.

Goldy -

I forgot to thank you for contributing to my education:

so·lip·sism: a theory holding that the self can know nothing but its own modifications and that the self is the only existent thing

33. Susan Bourland spews:

Anyhoo, xmasghost, you didn’t answer my question in all that sputtering anger…. what are you if not a “neo conservative?” And why are you here?

34. christmasghost spews:

Susan,
I find your comment very interesting. i am not angry in the least…but you seem to be.Did I say or do something to offend you?
Do you always have to label someone in order to have a civil discussion with them? If so, then maybe you have more in common with hard right wingers than you know…..
Tell me…where did you get the term neo-con?
I am a human being first of all….who is fairly conservative in my views.
And why am I here? I didn’t realize that this “territory” was off limits to some people. For a self proclaimed “newbie” you sure have some funny ideas about the way things work.
It’s called freedom of speech.

35. christmasghost spews:

“I think it’s because of an almost sociopathic contrarian urge that doesn’t get satisfied debating the finer points in his or her own group. An urge that only verbal bomb-throwing can quell. C’mon, throw a bomb!”
Says Susan…the newbie…..
Susan ,Susan, Susan….what is all this anger? “His or her OWN group?”
Name calling, aggressive baiting,marking territory….for a newbie you sure have picked up troll tendencies pretty fast. Are you just looking for a fight? Or do you want a real dialog?
Just asking……..

36. gs spews:

Well I am glad there are both parties posting here, otherwise it would only be a discussion board about which tax to raise if not all of them, which land to steal if not all of it, which election to steal and how, which wealth re-distribution to go after, or which rights to steal away. And that would be a somewhat worthless effort because Olympia already seems to be racing forward with these new BS issues every day.

37. Goldy spews:

I stepped away for a few hours, and was glad to see that calm and reason had returned. And I truly appreciate the kind words from both sides of the ideological divide. This is weird place… a place run by an avowed liberal, with an open liberal bias, that somehow manages to provide a forum where both sides can duke it out on the issues. That’s kind of cool.

As to constructive suggestions, the best by far is that we ignore we ignore the transgressors, and not get baited into one of those prolonged name-calling exchanges. (Again… I don’t mind a little name-calling, as long as it is part of an actual dialectic.) This requires more discipline than most of us are willing to exercise, but I suggest we try a little harder. Of course, dismissing them with humor works too.

There was also one suggestion that the commenting mechanism sucked. I plan to convert this site to WordPress 1.5 over the coming week or so, and there should be some improvements in that area. If there are any other technical changes, or new features people want, please chime in.

I should warn you all, that one likely change is that first time posters will be held for approval. When I make the switch, all of you will have your initial posts held until I personally approve you. This is an anti-blog spam mechanism. (You may not notice it, but automated blog spam has become an increasing problem… I sometimes need to deal with hundreds a day.)

I’m also looking for more ways to make the site more interactive, and one idea is to create one or more “sub blogs” where registered users can post. I’ll look into Scoop, the software that KOS uses, as one person suggested.

Any other ideas?

38. Mrs. Cynical spews:

“Self employed”. Is that what he tells you? Let me tell you, I’M the one who wears the pants in this household! Mr. C. spends a lot of time doing housework and grooming the cats.

As far as threats go, please don’t take Mr. C. so seriously. He is really a pussycat. He does have a bit of a Napolian complex owning to being short, pudgy, and bald. But, how can you be freightened of a man who cleans house in pink Spandex tights? It’s adorable! I guess this forum is his way of releasing tension (sorry about that!). He is a mean drunk, however, and is usually blogging with a few under his belt. So just humor/ignore him and he will eventually go wherever he gets more attention.

Love the blog! Hope to meet some of you smart fellows in person some day.

Hugs and kisses!

39. Adriel spews:

GOLDY-

Can you answer me?

“The fact is, they have absolutely no evidence on which they can prevail in this contest. None. Zero. Zilch. They simply cannot meet the standard of proof for setting aside an election.”

We’ll see Goldy, I will gladly say I was wrong if it goes as you say however will you do the same if it doesn’t? or will pride get in the way of the truth?

Comment by Adriel— 2/26/05 @ 3:21 pm

40. Scott spews:

Adriel @39
(Quotes himself from the comment string for Rossi for Governor 2008.)

From that previous string:
Goldy @81 re Adriel @74,

Thats a ridiculous question. I have publicly stated Rossi doesnt stand a chance. If the Supremes rule otherwise, everybody will know I was wrong. How could I possibly deny it? The Supreme Court ruling is what will stand.

Comment by Goldy 2/26/05 @ 5:08 pm

Try to actually read the strings you make the comments in before cross commenting, OK?

I’ve only been reading this blog for a month, and am posting a comment for the first time, and even I can figure that much out.

41. Jpgee spews:

Nice comfortable blog day. This is the best ineraction by both factions I have ever seen in ‘blogland’ We must all try and keep it that way. Everyone (myself included) tend to read easier and think longer before posting comments when it is ‘toned down’ like this. I am as guilty as anyone for jumping to the post area before even finishing my reading…espcecially with MrC. I will try and be a bit more patient. Great day to all.

Goldy @ 37 Something that might be interesting to try out would be placing a ‘chatroom’ on your blog. That would let the people interact more naturally and get a better feel for the differences of opinions. What do you think? jp

42. Chee spews:

On TV last night a short spurt was about blogs. The heart of it all was that the blogs are changing how the world views politics. Those holding political office are feeling the heat as the blogs turn the spotlight on them. Thus, they are feeling gun-shy and a bit more cautious. That would be a plus.

43. Mr. Cynical spews:

All I wanted to know from torridjoe was if his employer, the City of Portland, had a policy about blogging on government time, in a government office in a government building on a government computer??
Since this Governor’s Race is too a large degree about 20 years of Democratic rule in the Washington Governor’s seat, entrenched bureaucrats and a huge budget deficit….I think it is very appropriate to discuss what in the heck our PUBLIC SERVANTS do all day on government time. Fair question which has devolved into all kinds of anger.

Dave @ 14 and 21–
If my “self-serving interest” is somehow “harmed” by asking torridjoe about government workers on government time using government computers and government internet access in a government office in a government building to post partisan political blather….so be it.

Goldy @ 37–
Calm & Reason?? Perhaps someday we can all have a group internet “hug”. If I wanted to out torridjoe, certainly I could have. But I didn’t. If torridjoe has somehow violated City of Portland policy’s in his actions..that is his cross to bear. I have repeatedly said I respect torridjoe’s data analysis skills although disagree with many of his conclusions. I thought we were going on to other issues Goldy? I’m surprised you would want to continue this discussion.

44. Mr. Cynical spews:

And Mrs. C @ 38–
Honey, great news. They have re-padded your room at Animal Farm Home for the Extremely Paranoid. They said they never had an inmate…err “client” do so much damage in 5 minutes before.

No more Hostess “Twinkees”, that’s for sure

45. Aaron spews:

I’d like to see a commenting system where voting of post quality can facilitate a system where I can selectively “ignore”, that is not even see, the postings of tax cheats and mean drunks.

A big part of why the discussions devolve over time is that we operate from such completely different premises. Some think that government, warts and all, is by and for the people, while others have been programmed to believe that all that government does is necessarily corrupt and that laissez faire capitalism is the source of all that is good within our communities. Never mind that they drive oversized SUVs in a subsidized transportation system.

I think the poster “G Love” hit some salient points about hating weakness and self satisfaction. I’d like a posting system that facilitates searching by both author name and subject keywords too.

46. Aaron spews:

p.s. Thanks for all the hard work Goldy! Too bad I can’t write off a contribution to your beer fund on my taxes. (Can you tell what I’ve been doing this weekend?)

47. Mr. Cynical spews:

Oh & Mrs. C–
At least those pink spandex tights fit me!!
The last time they fit you was 8 years ago.
Sadly for you, but mercifully for the rest of us, they don’t make size 54 pink spandex.
Remember the last time you tried a pair on 4 years ago??
They blew up and shot through our front window killing the neighbors cat. PAWS and PETA were all over you for cruelty.
Why did I ever agree to the “for better or worse” part of our vows!

48. jcricket spews:

Goldy – I second the suggestion to use something like Scoop. Or slashcode (what powers slashdot). Kos and Slashdot boards are a lot easier to read because of the user-based moderating. The “true” trolls get moderated to the bottom, but it doesn’t seem to prevent posters from posting contrarian viewpoints, which is what you’re going for.

The two best policies for trolls are:

1) Ignore them.

2) As soon as a thread starts, put up silly posts using their alias. People at Pandagon did this with a vicious troll named “Trevor” and it worked pretty well. It became hard to tell the parody Trevor posts from the real Trevor posts, and since he couldn’t get a rise out of people, he left.

I do think there is a place for banning people. Not for “bad” language, conservative/liberal viewpoints, etc. But there is a point at which someone crosses the line and should no longer be welcome by the community. I am a member of several “real life” organizations, and we periodically have to deal with this issue. It’s even harder in real life, but sometimes you have to ask someone not to come around anymore.

49. Cyberspace Fire Dept. spews:

Your analysis continues to be first rate, but I’ve largely stopped reading the comments section. Too much flaming by too few blog addicts. Haven’t had enough caffeine this morning to offer any more suggestions on what to do about it except this: Stop fixating on Sound Politics. It’s insider baseball of interest to a limited number of people. Attacking at every turn also diminishes your stature; why on earth would you want to measure yourself against a bunch of pathetic wingnuts? Furthermore, in the postmodern world visibility = credibility. Why feed the beast?

Bottom line: Do you or don’t you want to grow your blog by making it welcoming to new readers? If yes, take the high ground. If no, cave to those who like their little playhouse just the way it is.

And while I’m at it (no caffeine still), your blog’s name gives pause. I realize it’s your “brand,” and it also accurately suggests that your analysis has a humorous, independent and biting edge (this good, yup). At the same time, it’s also a little adolescent. I’m not suggesting that you need one of those stuffy names that the ponderous pundits wrap their eyebrow-arching identity around, but really — horse’s ass? Is this the name you want to be associated with 10 years from now?

50. Mr. Cynical spews:

jcricket–
As usual, you only want a few folks who will “politely” disagree with you to control the dialogue but make it look like their is healthy debate. Why don’t you just volunteer to make up “Right” posts. You know…pretend you are the token Righty??
You are a member of several “real life” organizations?? You mean like MOONBATS FOR OSAMA??

51. dan spews:

Cynical;
See this is the stuff that really gets under our skin, but I guess you know that. It doesn’t matter what we say or stand for, if you disagree, we are automatically tied to helping terroism or communists who want no capitalism. We all believe in being safe and the American dream. Our difference is we think the game is fixed and there needs to be rule changes that allow everyone a chance to win. I know you probably think Baseball is OK, when the Yankees spend a Kazillion dollars on Players and the also rans don’t.(yes they don’t win every year, but the low budgets NEVER win) Good for the Yankees bad for Baseball. Same thing with our Country, If you Allow the Corporations to do whatever they want. Good for the Corporations bad for America. Thats why we need Gov. and Laws to attempt to level the playing field. We see these rules being threatened by this administration everyday. ( union busting, FCC dereg, Poor Child left Behind, Clean the sky of Birds initiative, No bid contracts, etc. Do you really believe that left alone, that corporations would do the best thing for Americans? Just look at Wal Mart. Look it up, you and your money are subsidizing their employees. and I know how much you hate taxes of anysort. But thank you for being polite today

52. Goldy spews:

Jpgee @41

Would a chatroom be much different than an open thread? I know, technically, it would be a touch more real time, but I’m wondering if that’s worth the extra user investment in learning interface?

How would people feel about a weekly open thread where people can sound off on any topic they want, without having to clutter the other threads?

Chee @42,

Is that a plus? Politicians being more timid? My concern is that our elected officials become even more reactive. I’d hate to get to the point where politicians start acting based on how effectively they are freeped.

Look… I recognize that I’m personally one of the beneficiaries of this election dispute… it turned HA into WA’s leading liberal blog overnight, and many politicians and journalists now read it on a regular basis. But there’s great room for me to use this public forum irresponsibly… as I believe (u)SP often does (and am not talking about disagreeing with their opinions, I’m talking about the deceptive way they have tried to move the news with unsupported allegations… remember the whole military ballots went out late flap.)

Aaron @45

I’ll look closely at Scoop, though I’m not particularly earnest about switching software at this point. You want to be able to comment on the quality of the comments, right? Since I’m the only one posting new threads.

JCricket @48,

Again, I’ll look at Scoop. I am concerned that user moderation could become a tool for punishing opinion. I’m also concerned that it could invite a form of user moderation freeping… an organized effort to lower somebody’s ratings. But I guess I need to trust the community here, one way or another.

I’d like to hear from the Conservatives/Republicans (whatever you want to call yourselves… some of you are “neocons” and I don’t see that as slur.) Do you fear user ratings as a means of suppressing your comments?

Cynical @50,

See… that was an example of expressing your opinion, pertinent to the thread, that even included insults… but was perfectly acceptable. Good going… you’re finally getting the hang of it.

We’ll housebreak you yet.

53. Goldy spews:

Cyberspace Fire Dept @49,

I think your comment deserved it’s own separate reply, since the issue of “brand” is something I’ve given some thought to.

I’m not ashamed of the “Horse’s Ass” thing. That’s the horse I road in on, and as sophomoric as it may be, I’m proud of it.

On the other hand, some people find it a turn-off, and the domain is occasionally blocked by internet and mail filters that assume it is pornographic. (For example, Google refuses to let me post AdSense ads, because the site is “too controversial.” And the Seattle Times won’t print my email address when they print my columns.)

So I’ve actually been looking into creating an alternative domain that I could transition too. I wouldn’t drop “Horse’s Ass”, but I’d de-emphasize it somewhat. My first choice was HA, but neither .com or .org are available, and I don’t believe in things like .info (people always try org and com, so they get confused. Feel free to convince me otherwise.)

So what do you all think? Should I ‘re-brand’…? And if so, any ideas on an available domain name?

54. Chee spews:

Disagreeing and voicing an opinion about topics Goldy brings to the table has created an interesting blog site for healthy debate. Goldy has an excellant way of presenting the facts, presenting his own opinions and presenting himself. Following Goldy’s lead, everyone can lend to or take from in a likewise healthy manner. Those geared otherwise. might get more benefits from a hike up Mt.Everist or a long drive in the country to release their nasties. Nasties are at a loss for words.

55. www.felonsfordino.com spews:

I like to read both sides of the debate on horsesass. However, I think there should be some moderation by Goldy in cases like Mr. Cynical. IMO the purpose of the personal attacks by folks like Mr. Cynical is to silence the other side and not to have an intelligent debate. When their tactics include personal threats I think it is the responsibility of the moderator to do something about it. In this case, I vote for blocking future posts by Mr. Cynical.

56. dan spews:

Goldy;

I am all for an area, that allows liberal thinkers to come up with strategies that will help us reeduccate the people who vote against their own interest.
Links to articles, posts or Books such as “What’s wrong with Kansas” need to be out there for us to be able to stand up and say..”You’re a Liar and not going to take it anymore”
However, as we all know Money talks in this country. So I am posting this link ( maybe you have had it before) But I think it should be on you Home Page. It’s the “BUY BLUE” and shows which companies do/don’t support Liberal beliefs.
http://www.choosetheblue.com/main.php

57. Chee spews:

Aaron. Re that a plus? Well, being gun-shy is being fearfull. It may not be a plus but it is the driving force of politics when it comes to being reelected. I agree with you on allegations and other unsupported jargon that is being propogated by the media. Mass media has spoon-fed the generally gullible public far too long. Regular media is finding there is a growing majority who are no longer ripe for those selective sparse pickings they toss us. No bones about it, darkness fears light. Blogs are bringing to light what they fear the worst, that the truth wil find them out!

58. marks spews:

Goldy @52, JCricket @48

“I am concerned that user moderation could become a tool for punishing opinion. I’m also concerned that it could invite a form of user moderation freeping…”

I have to agree with you Goldy. There will always be the pointless tantrums that we may not want to see, but allowing this form into the mix is inviting abuse regardless of whether it is deserved. Indeed, it could devolve into a “Survivor”-like thingy, if not held in check somehow.

59. Susan Bourland spews:

xmas ghost — good morning! Was hoping you’d answered my question. The preface was: I don’t hang out in Michele Malkin’s blog with my progressive self talking all progressivy. I am just curious — why does a neo-con spend time in HA? Ignore that I use “neo-con” and indulge my curiosity. No anger here, xmas. Just curious what you get from it. Are you hoping to make converts? My question applies equally to all neo-cons. Yours was just the first neo-con post I saw when it occurred to me to ask.

60. www.felonsfordino.com spews:

Many of the threads on horsesass get clogged with pointless tantrums and pretentious bullshit. The result is often a boring blog. My response is usually to stop reading a boring thread. I think this is bad for horsesass because a few people can effectively limit the discussion.

61. John spews:

Susan @ 59

Most of them come here because Goldy irritates them. He’s a good writer and he does his homework. They’re bored with cheerleading Sharkansky so they come here to snipe at Goldy. Goldy is a one man shop here. He’s an easy target. A few brave souls pitch in to help Goldy and that’s when it gets nasty.

By the way I see nothing wrong with criticizing or focusing on Sound Politics. They’ve got over a dozen bloggers, some of them very active and successful in getting MSM attention especially Sharkansky. He’s been all over talk radio, published in the local newspapers (both his pieces and pieces about him) and he’s even gotten slots on the Seattle Channel and a radio show. He deserves all the scrutiny one man shops like Goldy’s can throw at him.

I like to see if he can prove he doesn’t get BIAW money!

62. Mark spews:

Goldy @ 53

re: Branding

This is a tricky subject, but one with which I have a bit of experience. The best suggestion for the Seattle Times issue would be to find a good alias that will forward to the main HS address. That is what the guy with the F***edCompany.com website did.

Long term, I would consider a name that better reflected the site content. You gotta admit that the multiple meanings of SoundPolitics all reflect the site’s content beautifully (or at least for those who consider the commentary “sound”). Even you play off of his brand with the (u)SP references. You need a similar name. Either that, or something with NO possible other meanings (a la KOS), for which you can create meaning. A “horse’s ass” has definite meaning and I think the Eyeman connection is long gone (or was never there for newbies). Personally, I gotta say that when I’ve talked about blogs, I say “SoundPolitics” and “Goldy’s site.” HA just sounds a bit juvenile in sophisticated company. Sorry.

63. totally disgusted spews:

Susan @59 – Susan, you pathetic psuedo-liberal feminazi! Hopefully you can pull your head out and start treating other people with a modicum of dignity. Is this how you want everyone to treat you, as an obviously uncultured name-calling miscreant hack? Well then, knock off the name calling.

64. Mark spews:

Susan @ various

The reason that we (of varying degrees) to the right of center post here is for the spirited, intelligent discussion with some of the major posters here. What benefit is there to posting to a Kool-Aid-swilling blog of Yes (wo)Men — either Right or Left? How confident in the truth of your opinions can you be if you are unwilling to challenge (and perhaps even modify) them?

Do we want to change your mind? Sure, maybe a little — the thought being that there often is more common ground between us (not on the lunatic fringes) than we’d like to admit. We take a moment to listen to your thoughts and would appreciate reciprocal attention.

Think of this as an olive branch in the interest of true progress.

65. Don spews:

Mrs. C @ 38

I suspected as much. He reeks of AOB.* (*Alcohol On Blog)

C @ 43

What does Democrats running Washington for 20 years have to do with a Portland, Oregon fire department employee blogging on company time? (If that’s who TJ is) Those dots you’re trying to connect are actually black holes.

C @ 44 & 47

After that comment, I’d hire a professional food taster if I were you. I’d also keep a canary in the bedroom, in case she stuffs rags into the furnace flue.

General Comment:

Yeah, I understand all about the conventional liberal live-and-let live, wonky/wimpy-ness, social norm. Frankly I’m tired of our side getting used as a door mat by right-wing bullies and thugs, so I think the thing to do is dish it back. You see, at bottom, all bullies are cowards; and when you stand up to them, they run. So — here I am, come and get me, you yellow bastards. You want a fight, a fight is what you’ll get! :(

66. Don spews:

Grrrrrr!!!

67. John spews:

You see, at bottom, all bullies are cowards;

Example: JCHater and Chardonnay have made themselves scarce in this thread unless they’ve changed their alias as in 63 perhaps?

68. Mr. Cynical spews:

Don–
Your wife says you sleep with your Teddy @ night in PJ’s with feet…..I’m sure it’s hard for you to be so mean, but you are doing a good job of it.

Don, you previously said that you are absolutely against government employees on government time using government computers on government internet access in a government office in a government building posting on blogs…especially political ones.
Do you still feel that way?
Let torridjoe know your feelings–

69. zapporo spews:

Don, chill. It’s ok to pretend to be a liberal. Go ahead, drive that big SUV. Hit Starbucks and pile a few more plastic lids into the environment. Harrangue anyone that even mentions Social Security reform or government accountability. Mindlessly curse at a few innocent bystanders. Lace in a little profanity while you’re at it. it’s ok because this is a safe place where you can still pretend to be a liberal.

:-)

70. Susan Bourland spews:

Thanks for the eventual answer. God, just a question. Even when I was a neo-con, studying social policy at conservative BGSU in Ohio and writing my little writings for Liberty magazine and reading my little London School of Economics books, I didn’t want to hang around liberals. Thanks for answering, John.
Another question: does this site suffer from misogynistic flaming often?

71. Susan Bourland spews:

And Mark. Thanks to Mark for answering.

72. zapporo spews:

John@67 — I have good hip waders, but really, it’s getting a little deep in here. I understand why you wouldn’t want someone questioning your ultralib agenda, but hey, the world survived fascism and hopeful we’ll survive your brand of the same. So how about it – real election reform? government performance audits? real educational reform (i.e. charter schools)? real job creation (ie., streamline government, get out of the way of small businesses)? re-establishing a manufacturing base in the good old U.S. of A? This country is in a world of hurt right now and we need real solutions, not just wishful thinking and insults.

73. marks spews:

Susan Bourland @70

“does this site suffer from misogynistic flaming often?”

One would hope not, but I can’t vouch for the likes of ‘Totally Disgusted’…

For me, I happen to like the balance usually found here, despite the politics of Goldy’s site. As Mark indicated above, we can learn from one another, at times. I would not like it much if I just made a comment and everyone on the thread responds with sycophantic praise. Nor would I like it if I cast a dissenting opinion and the flames come from everywhere.

Likewise, I don’t need to read Michele Malkin’s blog, even if she is a hottie…(oh, was that sexist?)…

74. G Davis spews:

Interesting thread to be sure. Always good for a community to take stock of itself.

Bannings are something I detest. And in an unverified environment, they are largely a waste of time and energy as the supposed offender simply creates a new name used with increased venom.

Ratings? One man’s really good is another’s trash. Again, largely a waste of time and energy.

The only thing I object to in these sorts of rooms are direct personal attacks. Diversity of opinion, delivery do nothing but enhance conversation but attacks on persons is completely out of line.

I’ve always subscribed to and asked of fellow posters that I/they speak to each other with at least the same level of respect we afford our local grocery store clerks.

Would I go off on a clerk because of where they work, that they might while away some company time? No…it’s none of my business and it certainly does nothing toward forwarding my goal of buying my groceries and getting home.

It does seem to me rather small when folks feel compelled to take out after another personally. They must not be very strong in their own convictions that they need verification gotten from belittling others.

There are a couple in this room who know who they are that would not be missed were they banned/censured. And for those couple, I would applaud Goldy for taking the initiative of protecting the rest of us from those couple’s personal attacks.

If Goldy chooses otherwise, though, my scroll bar works just fine and I can skim past those fools very easily causing no skin to slip off my nose. But I’m not the one (yet) that they’ve gone after.

Rebranding? If it causes trouble garnering exposure, I’d say sure. Otherwise, whatever Goldy feels comfortable with is fine by me. I don’t go to rooms for the name on the door…I go because I enjoy the room behind that door.

I wouldn’t mind a preview button as many times my old fingers can’t keep up with my whiplike mind! ;0

75. Chee spews:

Susan B. Better break down that word “misogynistic” for those who havn’t read the book yet. Better yet, confuse them by explaining that Miso is something you eat while doing gymnastics or gin-nastics. Whatever. You go girl.

76. John spews:

zapporo @ 72

You know next to nothing about my views. You just assume they are whatever because of your far-right programming.

JCHater and Chardonnay’s comments speak for themselves. They are ignorant and hateful. That’s why they figure prominently in Goldy’s lame ass poll.

You start out flinging garbage and then you hold out an invitation to talk about the issues? Sorry, but you blew it – that is, if you were even halfway sincere about it.

77. jim spews:

Christmas ghost @31: Thanks for the nice words. Yes, a number of people on the SP blog asked me not to post…and Stefan created a thread on how to deal with “trolls and moonbats” like me.

The nastiness aside, I was asked not to post and I honored that (I don’t own the site). That said, at least one poster was sure I’d break my pledge and repost.

Truthfully, I have lost the desire. So many people don’t want to debate…the nastiness just got tiresome…

78. christmasghost spews:

Jim @77: well, as I said…that is definitely their loss.And just remember the people that are really nasty screamers have NOTHING to say. And they are afraid.
It never ceases to amaze me how some people will act these days…on very little provocation.
And Susan @ 59….you obviously have some real anger issues that have nothing to do with me…although i find it terribly amusing that you would wonder about “flaming”….do you proof your work?
There is an old saying that goes….”Be careful how you treat strangers because you don’t really know who they are after all”
I have pretty thick skin….but you have now said several quite nasty things that could have hurt someone. Me thinks a super-lefty is getting their knickers in a knot for a reason……….

79. christmasghost spews:

Dan @56…….Okay, this statement is just scary as hell. I hope you didn’t mean it to sound so “Mao”…..
“I am all for an area, that allows liberal thinkers to come up with strategies that will help us reeduccate the people who vote against their own interest.”

Re-educate people? Because they don’t believe the same things you do? Please tell me that you didn’t mean it to sound that way….that’s creepy as hell….

80. JCH spews:

“Example: JCHater and Chardonnay have made themselves scarce in this thread unless they’ve changed their alias as in 63 perhaps?

Comment by John— 2/27/05 @ 12:13 pm”……….WRONG, John!! idiot……I “stepped away” to mow the lawn. Yes, mow the lawn in FEB………Because, idiot John, I live in Hawaii on the Big Island [PARADISE!] and you don’t! Suck on that reality for a few minutes! JCH

81. zapporo spews:

John @76 – I’m truly sorry that I hurt your feelings. please accept my sincerest apology. Conservatives have a great deal to offer this blog, especially in terms of reasoned, moderate approaches to signficant political and economic issues. Election reform, fiscal conservancy, freedom from excessive government oversight, and above all a rational approach that is sorely lacking in certain circles herein. For example, my ideal president would be more like Teddy Rosevelt (war hero, environmentalist, populist) than George Bush. However, I’ll take Dubyah over John Kerry any day of the week. Bush, even if you disagree with him, is consistent, forthright, steady, and confident. His cabinet and supporters are far more diverse than his detractors claim to be. And overall, he is far more moderate and centrist than Al Gore, John Kerry, or Hilliary Clinton.

82. JCH spews:

Re:DON……….You have a lot of hate for a leftist, Democrat “guvment” hack. Don’t you love those who work in the private sector to pay your “guvment” salary? I thought Republicans were the “mean spirited”, while you socialist Democrats [oh yeah...."Progressives"] are just packed full of…………sh……..er, love!! I think we can all agree that “Progressives” [junior Communists like DON] love to spend other people’s money. That’s why DON is like a parasite on a dog. DON: “guvment” parasite, and angry!!

83. JCH spews:

DON…I think I voted to call you a “guvment” parasite before I desided NOT to call you a “guvment” parasite. [respects to Senator John "Fonda" Kerry [D-Gigalo who marries rich women]

84. HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

I don’t agree with a ban with the exception of one for foul language: people tend to forget when they use disgusting words and language that while it may indeed anger the recipient, it also says far more about the person using it. Some of you might want to keep that in mind.

Now, why do I come to HA? Well, I believe there is value in “knowing the enemy”. In this case I don’t believe the “enemy” is any one particular person, or even a whole group of them: I believe with every ounce of my being that liberalism, especially cultural liberalism with its values neutral/no values/value mocking positions on just about everything is the greatest enemy to this country that I dearly love.

That being said, I am confident that if 98/100 of you were my neighbors, you would indeed be good neighbors. Why do I say that? Because you are passionate. Because you are involved. Because you attempt to educate yourself on the issues.

Now, I know you all have missed me greatly (see me roll my eyes) but I won’t be back till after Easter. I have chosen to forgo the enjoyment of baiting, er… arguing, er… DEBATING, that’s it! debating the loony left and noisy little bugs as part of my Lenton sacrifice although I have been coming by for my daily giggle, cackle, chortle, snicker, gaffaw, out loud belly laugh.

You all need to step back and stop taking yourselves so darn seriously.

85. John spews:

JCHater@80,

Welcome back. In fine form as well, spewing insults and ignorance. I call on my fellow commenters who are of a like mind to put in a vote for Mr. Hater in Goldy’s Lame Ass Poll. By the way Hater, we’d all appreciate it while you’re stinking up paradise to comment on the politics of the Aloha State in the appropriate forum.

zapporo @ 81

Do you see what I mean now?

I’d like to believe your apology is sincere so what the heck I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. First right off the bat we are way, way apart on Dubyah, but that’s ok. Maybe we can work up to that issue some day.

Feel free to flesh out your views on the issues you mentioned in 72. I promise not to indulge in ad-hominem. I trust you won’t do the same in my direction.

I’ll go first.

real election reform? I’m for it. It’s the “real” part I’m leery about. As a start I’ve yet to see anything objectionable about what Sam Reed has put forward.

Government performance audits? I support what Brian Sonntag has put forward.

real educational reform (i.e. charter schools)? I’ve seen a lot of horror stories about charter schools but I seen a few good cases as well. I’d rather see strong support of public education from the state, smaller class sizes, stronger involvement with business and higher education and strong limits on administrative bloat.

progress on real job creation (ie., streamline government, get out of the way of small businesses)? re-establishing a manufacturing base in the good old U.S. of A? Zapporo, I’m for all of that. Small business is all we’ve got when the larger companies are obsessed with exporting jobs to low wage sinks. I hate needless red tape like the next guy

See, are we really that far apart?

86. Mr. Cynical spews:

HowCan–
Goldy and his ilk don’t care about Easter & Lent.
They would view it as some looney right-wing ritual that is meaningless.
But you know, I think it is a wonderful sacrifice on your part especially since you are one of the finer posters on this blog…except for me of course!!
I think I’ll join you..
Since these Lefty-whacks think it’s perfectly fine for a government employee on government time on a government computer on a government internet connection in a government office in a government building to post on blogs and do data analysis while they are supposed to be full-time PUBLIC SERVANTS….it’s pretty futile. Notice how they shifted the blame to little old me for raising the issue???

I’ve said all along these Left Wingnuts are oh so serious and oh so self-righteous and oh so willing to waste time and energy talking about things like how to be nicer to them,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I’m sure some of them would be ok neighbors, but most wouldn’t.
This is the same crowd that would tell you what color to paint your house, where to plant trees in your own yard, narc on you to the recycle police if you mistakenly put a pop can in the garbage, and let their dog crap in your yard to boot!!

This is also the same gang that drives around with bumper stickers on their beater Volvo’s that say stuff like:
“I EAT FREE-RANGE TOFU!”

87. Mr. Cynical spews:

john–
You sound mighty jealous of JCH being in the Aloha State.
My sister-in-law has lived in Maui for over 20 years.
So john-boy…you want JCH to stick to business in his own state and not comment about Washington??
Do you feel the same way about torridjoe commenting from his City of Portland office????
Of course you don’t…because torridjoe is a “progressive” (whatever the hell that is…I thought it meant “progressing” toward something of value but apparently not).

88. zapporo spews:

A firm round of applause for Mr. Cynical. That was great especially the parts about the house color, the dog, and the free range tofu.

89. torridjoe spews:

the places you’re most likely to find neighborhood control nazis who decide who gets in and who doesn’t, what color to paint the houses and whether your trash cans are still out the next day, sure ain’t Democratic neighborhoods.

90. Don spews:

Cynical @ 68

“I’m sure it’s hard for you to be so mean, but you are doing a good job of it.”

Thank you!

“Don, you previously said that you are absolutely against government employees on government time using government computers on government internet access in a government office in a government building posting on blogs…especially political ones. Do you still feel that way?”

Yes.

“Let torridjoe know your feelings–”

I posted it, didn’t I?

Comment: Most, if not all, public agencies have stated policies. Typically, reasonable personal use is allowed where cost to the agency is minimal and it doesn’t interfere with the work. An example is using your office phone to make sure your kid got to daycare okay or make a medical appointment. Employees are expected to use good judgment and avoid actions that violate laws or create controversy. If you work for a public agency, you may be tempted to think that using your work computer for anonymous political blogging is in the same category as Ebaying or online shopping, but in my opinion it is not. Politics is a sensitive topic and you need to think about how voters or taxpayers out in the community might react to these activities if it gets into the local newspaper. As a public servant, you must deal with your agency’s clientele professionally and without a hint of partisan bias, which calls for leaving your politics at home when you walk out the door in the morning. In summary, even if it’s not prohibited by law or agency policy, I think it’s inappropriate. You can’t use the office phone to make campaign calls, and you shouldn’t be using the office computer for political blogging either. The principle is the same, and so are the reasons.

91. Don spews:

zapporo @ 69

You — a pig-headed, loud-mouthed, narcisstic, neocon troll — are hardly an innocent bystander.

92. Don spews:

Susan @ 70

I wouldn’t know. I’m new here. I came to HA after getting thrown off Free Republic, which took only 30 seconds.

93. Don spews:

zap @ 72

“This country is in a world of hurt right now”

No shit, Sherlock! Do you think voting for the people who caused it will make it better?

94. Don spews:

JCH @ 80

Obviously you’re going stir crazy on your bitty little island. It shows in your posts.

95. Don spews:

zap @ 81

You would be more credible if you displayed a willingness to criticism the current administration, which is anything but conservative.

96. Don spews:

Cynical Idiot @ 82

It’s spelled “gigolo”

Memo to Mrs. Cynical: Please give your husband a dictionary for his birthday, and hit him with it if he doesn’t use it.

97. Susan Bourland spews:

Don,
Thrown from the Free Repub train? What went wrong?
I see a divide, not only in “the nation’s political discourse” but in the HA comments between the traditional conservative (perhaps with a proud intellectual lineage of the Lew Rockwell sort — and btw, see “The Brownshirting of America” on Lew Rockwell’s site for a discourse on this divide, not to mention an example of the proud usage of the appelation “neo-con”) and the …. well, neo-brownshirted AM listeners! I mean, anyone can see the divide, it’s easy, but just thought I’d mention how in evidence it is here in these comments. I mean…. “femi-nazi”? True conservative should be embarrassed by such talk.

98. Mr. Cynical spews:

Don @ 95–
I know how to spell gigolo you dumbass!
It was someone else (JCH) @ 82 you dumbass!

Don @ 89
I agree 100% with your comments regarding personal use of government computers you dumbass!

99. zapporo spews:

Don at 90 – Don’t say it unless you really mean it. Hehehehe.
Actually, I’m probably as close to center as you are, but I won’t push you on that one.

Don at 92 – Are you blaming G.W. Bush for 911? Come on. And who was president 92 to 00? I think that there’s plenty of blame to go around, especially considering intervening external factors.

Don at 94 – I often do criticise the current administration – for not going far enough. Hehehehe. Seriously, we need a vastly improved educational system, a balanced federal budget, and a stronger market-based economy that includes some manufacturing and continued innovation right here in the U.S.A.. Look at what happened to Cesna – an entire industry destroyed due to unreasonable litigation. People think nothing about purchasing a foreign car, stereo, (insert your favorite consumable)despite the impact that has on our economy and future. We know that reasonable competition is healthy, so why not apply that principle to education?????????? We spend thousands of dollars per student annually and obtain far worse results than China, India, Germany, Japan, et all that spend much less. Those are some of the things that I would like to see us work on.

100. zapporo spews:

Susan at 96 – If the appelation fits you…. Do you really have anything worthwhile to add or are you just going to throw derogatory labels at people with views that differ from your own? Just curious.

101. zip spews:

RDC @ 9

Thanks for the kind words.

Lefty wing nuts @ above

I have not been “scared away”, just travelling lately.

Goldy

I also suggest that you consider a name change for your site. Thanks for keeping the discussion free and open; stifling it by any means would run the risk of homogenizing it. The homogeneity and “rah rah we’re right” cheerleading comments on SP are the reason I am rarely commenting to my fellow wing nuts there. Believe it or not, I have learned a few things reading the “progressive” point of view here so wuld appreciate a chance to continue reading and commenting. And no, Don, I don’t have proof of that increased knowledge.

102. Don spews:

Susan @ 96

They didn’t like my screen name.

103. JCH spews:

Idiot Don…….”bitty little island”? The Big Island is the size [square miles] of CONN, Don. In addition, not may retired “guvment” hacks like you in my neighborhood. And certainly not in Kona.

104. JCH spews:

Don, I think I will vote for “guvment” raises in WASH state before I vote against it. [with respects to John "Fonda" Kerry [D-War Hero Like Don]

105. Don spews:

Cynical @ 97

Just checking to see if you’re awake.

When I was a kid, my father once paddled me for a certain malfeasance. Problem is, I didn’t do it, my brother did. When I pointed this out, he replied, “Well, that’s for whatever I didn’t catch you for!” Same principle applies here.

106. Don spews:

Cynical @ 97 (continued)

As Clint Eastwood said, “Kid, we’ve all got it coming.”

107. chardonnay spews:

well, you all missed me? I am so “blushing.”
I went to non-diverse, non tolerant rural land to visit with real people for the weekend. Smoked cigarettes, drank beer and built a bon fire, had to dispose of some plastic.
I read thru all the blather and finally I came across Mr Cynical’s comments. Whew, Thank GOD! after reading all the name calling & hatered and cry baby comments by the left about the neo-cons calling names and spewing hate…… I needed a breath of fresh air.
I noticed these loving, sensitive examples by DON & SB:

zapporo @ 69
You – a pig-headed, loud-mouthed, narcisstic, neocon troll – are hardly an innocent bystander.
Comment by Don — 2/27/05 @ 7:50 pm

“neo-con” posted by susan 5000 times.

ok tell me again who spews name calling?
and who ever said “you all take yourselves to seriously” I can’t remember after reading 96 posts, you were so right on. If you democrats/liberals/progressives/left wingers, would only approach this blog thing with a little sense of humor, you would “FEEL” so much better.
Do you not see that in Mr Cynicals posts? He is not affected by any of your threats one bit, nor am I.
We just simply approach this political talk with humor.

If you think you have “the keys” to world issues, post with confidence. But all I see from you is reactionary, drama queen responses. Similar to an only child, spoiled brat syndrome. “mommy, she won’t play the game the way I said she had to”

speaking only for myself, I came here trying to figure out what makes you left leaning individuals tick. I couldn’t help but comment on the, IMHO, ridiculous remarks. I have come to the conclusion that you are all so defensive.
If you don’t want us to call you names, don’t call us names. Simple!
Are you @ horsesass going to solve world peace?
in conclusion, I heard a funny story in rural land from an old guy that I thought would be an excellent ICON-logo for horsesass.org
a back end of a horse, tail up, letter S on each cheek. LOL, I meen, S O S, get it? LOL

108. JCH spews:

Don..Atlas has Shrugged, and you are going to be left behind. BTW, Don, who is John Gault? [You probably don't read a lot outside of Bill and Hillary's books]

109. chardonnay spews:

snd Goldy, your weblog is very entertaining because of both sides post comments. ALL LEFT comments here would most definately create a stale environment. Heated discussions are healthy and attractive. I noticed the cussing consistantly comes from the same people, although I am not offended by it at all.
Like I said before, I am thoroughly entertained by everyones comments as a whole. Even more so by Mr Cynicals.

110. dan spews:

Chard @106

You know I think this is the first time I might have to agree with Chard Remains since she has been here. She is right about us being offended by the name calling. (Although I hear the word Neocon on the Sunday talk shows and I am suprised that you think it is an insult, may I ask why? Is there a stigma to being a “New Conservative” that I am not aware of.) We need a little bit thicker skin, and expect when we refer to their party as Wingnuts, we can expect the same.

So The problem still remains chard, that the whole idea of this string was, the personel outing of a fellow blogger, not his views. If you feel that this is a legitmate practice, then please post your name and address here, or I am sure Goldy can track down your info from where you post and we can have a great time with your and Cynicals tax deductions.

111. Don spews:

zap @ 98

Actually, I didn’t specifically have 9-11 in mind, but you can put it at the top of the list if you like. I have a question for you? Who was president when it happened? (Hint: Dubya.) Here’s another question: How much of the time between Jan. 20, 2001 and Sept. 11, 2001 did Dubya spend on vacation at his ranch in Texas? (Hint: 42%) (And Cynical complains about TJ goofing off on the taxpayer’s timeclock???)

Last time I checked Cessna (not “Cesna”) is still making and selling airplanes. http://www.cessna.com/aircraft/ I suspect you meant Piper, but guess what, Piper’s back. http://www.newpiper.com/heritage/index.asp Guess you can’t keep a good product down despite trial lawyers, huh. On the other hand, trial lawyers have taken a lot of dangerous products off the market including children’s pajamas that caught fire, dangerous toys, etc. (BTW Piper’s 1991 bankruptcy was caused by “bad management decisions and a stagnant market in the late 1980s,” not lawsuits. http://www.flysouth.co.za/news/archive/2003-07-25/New%20Piper%20Aircraft%20has%20new%20owner.htm; as for whether the “entire industry [was] destroyed by unreasonable litigation,” I’m under the impression there are more lightplane manufacturers today than ever before, and lots of exciting new products in the general aviation market.

112. dan spews:

the ghost @ 79

Yes, Reeducate, if it sounds Maoish to you, it is because when the right controls the Media, with Radio and TV talk shows, Prostitute reporters, and the unlimited corporate budgets supplied to the Likes of Swift kick in ass for Liars. then your people have been duped.
Do you ever even question why at all Bush rallies you have to sign an oath to get in?
The right has had so much sucess on fringe issues, (13 states with gay Marriage votes) that these sheep become single issue voters. They need to learn more, before that sheering is not the worst thing that happens to them

113. Don spews:

JCH @ 102

Are you implying that public servants (“guvmint hacks” as you call us) don’t go into this line of work for the money??? Is it possible we did something with our lives besides accumulate the wherewithal to live in a snotty neighborhood? It must give you a warm glow to know that you don’t have to worry about any daycare workers, teachers, fry cooks, or Army privates moving in next door.

114. Don spews:

Anybody: Why do Republicans always brag about their money? Does it have anything to do with the 1980s B-school mantra, “Money isn’t everything — it’s the only thing”?

115. zapporo spews:

Don, Get real. Yes G.W. was President during 911. Yes, he spends a significant amount of his time in Texas. I’m quite astonished that the Secret Service allowed you to review his schedule in such detail. Did you take into account bathroom breaks too? Cessna is still selling airplanes, I’m sure aided and abbetted by kind lawyers willing to help Cessna through litigation. Now why don’t you pull out yearly sales records and really blow us away. Those would be far more instructive. The mere existance of the firm does not in any way lessen the impact that excessive litigation has had on the that firm or the industry in general. Quite the opposite. Why do you think so many doctors are fleeing Washington State? Do you think exhorbinant malpractice insurance might have something to do with that? And why oh why would it be so costly? It’s the greedy insurance companies, right? I think I smell some very strong intellectual dishonesty blowing from your direction…

116. zapporo spews:

Don, Here, I’ll save you the trouble. http://cessna.com/about_cessna/sales_report.pdf
It’s kinda freaking hard to make money when you’re not selling any planes. Being litigated isn’t very profitable compared to actually selling products that didn’t need to be litigated in the first place.

117. dan spews:

Zapzero @ 114

Yes G.W. was President during 911. Yes, he spends a significant amount of his time in Texas.

Did you know he learned to read “My Pet Goat” there. It was on the inside of the Daily Breifing Titled ” Osamba determined to attack inside the US” (sorry, can’t remember the exact name of the Breif)

As for the litigation cost…standard trick, If you put a question mark after “greedy Insurance companies” then it can’t be true? Go look at their bottom lines since this guy has been learning to read. Yes they are greedy insurance companies.

“Now…watch this drive.”

118. dan spews:

JCH everywhere..

STFU

You are a bitter old Seaman, probably living on a Navy pension.

119. chardonnay spews:

dan, you’re so silly. I thot this thread was about where HA is going, aka the future of HA. I missed the part about ousting 1 person. I’m sorry that you do not see, that after reading 10 similar comments, Mr Cyn’s stands out and breaks up the
m o n o t o n e it is frikin hilarious.
Was goldy saying this blog exclusive to liberal idea’s? I swear the Goldster is accepting of both views as long as the line is not crossed i.e. personal info (TJ).
neo-con, oh, I was not aware it stands for NEW, I assumed it was liberals trying to make a comparrison to neo-nazi, which I am sure they hope it does.
The truth is, most everyone knows the ties of senator Robert Byrd and his previous job as a KKK recruiter. Or that the democrats were the party that fought Prez Lincoln freeing the slaves. That is more in lock step w/neo-nazism.
So don’t act so innocent. If that upsets you to the point of shouting names that is NOT my problem. In the same sentence you will shout obsenities about Nixon or some other elected Republican. We could go back and forth about that 24/7. Do you wanna? Cuz I got time. Or, we can have a civil discussion about local issues that we all want. As long as you want to resort to calling me names personally we will go nowhere, but it is all fun to me either way.

and Don, republicans talk about “their” money, key word, “their,” get it? as a govt atty you make a pretty hefty salary + benies, how about we ask you to refuse your next pay raise? Hmmmm, I thot not, huh don, you prefer to raise taxes on those that make less than 1/2 of what you make, just so you can get a raise, or yet another day off with pay, like Flag Day. When in the same breath you claim to be a bleeding heart liberal caring for the down trodden walmart employees. They pay property taxes, sales tax, car tab tax, fica tax too DON. when will enough be enough?

Goldy, perhaps a counter showing how many comments on each thread? Also spell check to ward off the spelling police (gigolo).

120. Aaron spews:

Chardonnay @107: “Smoked cigarettes, drank beer and built a bon fire, had to dispose of some plastic.” & “I needed a breath of fresh air.”

Do you mean you decided the best way to get rid of some plastic was to burn it? JFC, what the hell is wrong with you? Do you really not give a shit what kind of toxins you release into the air that we all breath? Do you not care what kind of poisons are in the air that you think of as fresh?

Chardonnay @119: “Goldy, perhaps a counter showing how many comments on each thread?”

You are stupid, aren’t you. No, that wasn’t a question.

121. JCH spews:

119…Chardonny… You are too nice to the pigs ["guvment hack Don et al] right out of Animal Farm. They prefer we “STFU” and just pay, and pay, and pay. They are evil. Yes, evil. They are the enemy. They will destroy this country from within. And like a parasite killing the host, they will move on to the next host to suck from. It’s really that simple. [Atlas has Shrugged, and losers like Goldy and Don will always be left behind.]

122. chardonnay spews:

aaron? 120? yes it was a question? sorry that you do not approve? burning plastic, ya, it’s a great practice. All us anti-enviro”mental”s cherish the sheer symbolismin it? catch us if you can? JK, LOL dude, get a f’n grip? you really need a sense of humor.
jk = just kiding, OK?

123. Goldy spews:

Just want to clear up a couple things here. I’m not against name-calling… I’m not against angry debate… I’m not against vitriol. And I have no problem with foul language, appropriately used. (In fact, I love foul language — it is uniquely expressive.) Indeed, me calling Stefan a “prick” is lot more honest than him calling me “sweet.”

What I’m opposed to is intimidation, and that’s exactly what Cynical attempted to do… not just against TJ, but against anybody else who is effective in deconstructing their propaganda. This was intended as a warning shot.

Why threaten TJ and Carla? Because their blogs are effective. Why not threaten me? If they could find something to threaten me with, they would.

Also, I want to comment on the lame-ass poll. I’m pretty sure that Josef takes his inclusion in the spirit in which it was intended. The other three will have to determine for themselves what spirit was intended for them.

124. chardonnay spews:

JCH @ 121,
hey, I’m a nice person naturally, all day, everyday.

“i’m just a girl from a trailer park who had a dream”
hillary swank, oscar winner.
I take none of this seriously. More or less a sport to me.
I have way bigger fish to fry than 4 liberals here.
And Don, I do not need to snitch, that is already being done by someone else directly.
But tell me, what is the difference between that govn’t atty and YOU?
goodnight

125. G Davis spews:

I see this has degenerated to almost new levels…

Too bad…could have been a nice airing of differences thread.

Sorry for interrupting kids…go back on and play now.

126. chardonnay spews:

why am I in the poll? I’m just a right wing trailer trash wino girl, who needs love too.

love me!

127. zapporo spews:

LoserDan @117 — Ease back on the meds. They are affecting your memory and your ability to think cogently. Well, actually your ability just to think. Or perhaps I’m assuming too much and your idiotic reply is due to a congenital birth defect? I think Aaron said it best. “You are stupid”. “No that is not a question”.

128. Chee spews:

Under the Peter principle, one rises to the level of their own incompetance. If the Foo shits, wear it. Down South they say you can get glad in the same clothes you get mad in.

129. torridjoe spews:

Don @ 90

I think more properly the conflict of interests arises when doing political advocacy for a party or a candidate–not political commentary in general. In other words, the difference between “The President’s policies on Social Security are foolish and dangerous,” and “I think people should vote for Bob Johnson for governor.”

Zap @115

So many doctors are fleeing Washington? Sounds like you’ve been gobbling up the Republican talking points. By my analysis of licensing according to the Federated Medical Boards Assn, Washington now has 14% MORE licensed physicians in 2003 (last year available) than in 1999. (Oregon has 10% more). As a point of reference, WA’s total population is up only about 5% over that period. So essentially, three TIMES as many doctors as other citizens have moved to Washington in the last 5 years. That’s true in Oregon as well, where the general population has increased only about 3%.

Perhaps they’re only licensed in Washington, but they practice elsewhere? (Yes, it happens, you Dr. Daniel Sosin speculators). In 1999, 72% of all licensed physicians practiced in WA; in OR the figure was the same. By 2003, 74% practiced in WA; again, OR was the same.

So there are more doctors than 5 years ago, and more of them who are licensed practice in their state of licensure. Where do you get that doctors are fleeing, again?

Chardonnay @ 119

The Democrats who opposed emancipation have their legacy in the current Republican Party. The segregationist southern Democrats all became Republicans starting in the 60s. You’ve been told that once; you appear not to have grasped it.

130. Diggindude spews:

They just want to be republicans in the sense of “the good times we had”.
As much a humanitarian as abe was, I would find it hard to see him associating in the current state of wacko red.

131. chardonnay spews:

Like senator robert byrd?

132. JCH spews:

TorridJoe…”The Democrats who opposed emancipation have their legacy in the current Republican Party. The segregationist southern Democrats all became Republicans starting in the 60s. You’ve been told that once; you appear not to have grasped it.”….Like KKK Byrd, Al Gore’s dad, and Senator Foghorn Leghorn “Fly those Stars and Bars” from South Carolina? Joe, how can you write such garbage?

133. torridjoe spews:

Byrd is from WVA, not the South.
Gore was NOT a segregationist; in fact he was defeated because he wasn’t.
And do you mean Thurmond from SC, who was a Democrat and moved to the Republicans after 1964?

134. christmasghost spews:

dan@112 says……

“Yes, Reeducate, if it sounds Maoish to you, it is because when the right controls the Media, with Radio and TV talk shows, Prostitute reporters, and the unlimited corporate budgets supplied to the Likes of Swift kick in ass for Liars. then your people have been duped.
Do you ever even question why at all Bush rallies you have to sign an oath to get in?”

Wow….Dan, you have some serious issues. Not only with Republicans obviously…..but with your need for personal world domination. By you.
The right contols the media???? You are kidding right?
At Bush rallies you have to sign an oath to get in??? Never been to any have you? You should really stop reading the moveon.commie’s talking points.
So anyone you don’t like in the media is a prostitute? You wouldn’t happen to have a burka in your closet would you? Just waiting for that special girl?
your lack of enlightenment and tolerance is shocking but not surprising….this is why the far left is tanking.
Shrill shrill shrill…….maybe you and Susan should get together and make a plan for those re-education camps you think we all need…..but a word of caution.
stay away from the kool-aid………..

135. christmasghost spews:

And , I have to say….if Torridjoe is writing/blogging on taxpayer or employer time and someone actually knows this to be true it would be wrong to report him why? Because he’s a blogger he’s special? WRONG. If that is what he is doing…he is cheating his employer out of a full days work, most companies do have rules about this and in the end it’s stealing. Sheesh…you haven’t entered the “he’s my kin” zone here too, have you?

136. torridjoe spews:

xmasghost @ 135

It might also be wrong to do it because you don’t really have any idea about the specific situation in which it occurs, and you’re really only doing it as a means of intimidation because they voice opinions you disagree with, and you apparently have no good rebuttal.

137. christmasghost spews:

#136 Torridjoe,
It seems as if you and I are always a little out of sync with each other….as what you say doesn’t make alot of sense to me. Would I go out and do a background check on someone who’s opinion annoyed me? That’s a NO….. but do I think it’s okay to be stealing from your boss…if you are blogging on company time that’s what you are doing, especially if you do work for the government and what you are saying is political…….once again…that’s a NO.
I really do follow “it’s not who’s right…it’s what’s right”.
Joe….if you have nothing to hide then you don’t have to worry about people “intimidating” you. I am not a fan of using something like this to get someone to shut up….and personally I wouldn’t do it. But, a word of advice,there are many people on both sides of the aisle that would.
Try to go back and read some of the less than enlightened comments from people like Dan and Susan on here…try to read them as if you were conservative. Now, can you honestly tell me that people like that would not nail a conservative they didn’t like if they had the goods on them?
be honest…….
It’s the same mentality that released Bush’s DUI record just days before the election. It’s the gotcha mentality.They are not after the truth…they want to manipulate situations….and last time I checked the right had no corner on that market.

138. torridjoe spews:

Xmas @ 137
Again, I say you are making assumptions based on knowledge you don’t have, and thus allegations based on those assumptions are entirely unwise. I also did not say I was intimidated; what I said was it was a naked attempt at intimidation. As for others, I can only tell you what I have seen from their behavior. The only person who got so frustrated with someone’s opinions that they sought to intidimated them, was Cynical. Your moral equivalency–trying to make less of his actions by claiming that others surely would do it, too–is disappointing.

Bush lied about his DUI–it would have been more of a travesty to NOT report it before the election, as certain news outlets did not regarding other Bush lies before 2004. And I might add that Bush was applying for a job where the public does the hiring. You appear to be suggesting that it’s not OK to check on someone’s background before you hire them. It’s odd for you to say it’s not a search for the truth, since Bush was the one who hid it, and the article sought to present the truth.

139. christmasghost spews:

Joe, once again we seem to be speaking different languages.I was not…… “trying to make less of his actions by claiming that others surely would do it”
I was merely pointing out that this is a widespread problem and perhaps since this is the way things are, people who live in glass houses and all that…..
You talk about all Bush’s lies. Pretty funny coming from a guy that is daily cheating his boss out of work, right? Is that what you wanted to hear? Because I found it very disappointing that you would steer away from your own behavior[which was the subject] and then go after Bush. Trite, innane…what ever you want to call it….it’s OLD. And it doesn’t work anymore.
Bush lied about his DUI? That’s interesting….he surely obviscated by not mentioning it, but when it came out he stepped right up to the microphone and told the truth.I just watched it again last night on the Sundance channel.Can’t get anymore liberal than that, can you?
Now compare that to Clinton’s “I never had sex with that woman” and “it all depends on what the meaning of is…is”.
Once again…I find your partisan bias is blinding you. Should Bill Clinton have come out right up front with his lack of personal morals and the fact that the man never met a lie he didn’t like?
No? Didn’t think so….
I would have an easier time taking you seriously if you applied the same scrutiny to both sides….but, alas, you are too busy looking for the big “D” after the person’s name so you can excuse all their behavior……

140. christmasghost spews:

Joe, once again we seem to be speaking different languages.I was not…… “trying to make less of his actions by claiming that others surely would do it”
I was merely pointing out that this is a widespread problem and perhaps since this is the way things are, people who live in glass houses and all that…..
You talk about all Bush’s lies. Pretty funny coming from a guy that is daily cheating his boss out of work, right? Is that what you wanted to hear? Because I found it very disappointing that you would steer away from your own behavior[which was the subject] and then go after Bush. Trite, innane…what ever you want to call it….it’s OLD. And it doesn’t work anymore.
Bush lied about his DUI? That’s interesting….he surely obviscated by not mentioning it, but when it came out he stepped right up to the microphone and told the truth.I just watched it again last night on the Sundance channel.Can’t get anymore liberal than that, can you?
Now compare that to Clinton’s “I never had sex with that woman” and “it all depends on what the meaning of is…is”.
Once again…I find your partisan bias is blinding you. Should Bill Clinton have come out right up front with his lack of personal morals and the fact that the man never met a lie he didn’t like?
No? Didn’t think so….
I would have an easier time taking you seriously if you applied the same scrutiny to both sides….but, alas, you are too busy looking for the big “D” after the person’s name so you can excuse all their behavior……

141. christmasghost spews:

sorry about the double post….

142. torridjoe spews:

Xmas @ 140
Are you asserting that I live in a glass house? I don’t recall complaining about anyone posting on company time, and you’re assuming that’s what I do in the first place. My own behavior was NOT in fact the subject; the subject was trolls and intemperate postings. Then you again make a claim that is utter speculation, and no–that’s not what any sensible person wants to hear if they’re inclined to discuss matters seriously.

Yes, Bush directly lied about his DUI. He was asked in 1998 by DMN reporter Wayne Slater, and specifically denied ANY arrests after 1968. I believe his quoted answer was “No.” Whoops.

And have you done so much background research on me, that you are able to assess whether I ever upbraided Clinton for lying and committing adultery? Wait, let me answer that one for you: No, or rather perhaps you have, and are just misrepresenting the results. As for “being up front about his personal morals,” I seem to remember a national interview in which he admitted he had sinned that way in the past.

143. christmasghost spews:

Joe,
Yes, I guess I am assuming that you are posting on company time, and if not true that would be very unfair to you.You will get my apologies right away if that is not true. So why don’t you clear that up? I guess I was assuming that you were fronted out on that[maybe unfairly] because you didn’t deny it…..and it just doesn’t seem to go with the grain of human nature than when accused of something you are innocent of, that you would not correct the incorrect impression.
And I have read so many of your posts out of curiosity that my eyes are crossed…. sheesh, you sure get around…..and I couldn’t find even one where you called Clinton on his smarmy behavior…..can you steer me to it please?

144. torridjoe spews:

Xmas @ 143
Apparently unlike you, I have long moved on from Clinton’s transgressions. If you haven’t noticed, he’s not in office anymore.

Why should I expend any effort explaining myself to strangers who make speculative allegations as a way of trying to intimidate me? I’m well aware of the workplace rules where I’m employed, and I attempt to adhere to them. I find it curious that it’s only unfair to you if the charge happens to turn out incorrect–not that the charge would be leveled unaccountably in the first place. In this case, “prove you’re not stealing from your company” is about on par with asking Dean Logan “prove you didn’t fraudulently turn the election for Gregoire.”

145. christmasghost spews:

Joe,
You are good at that spin aren’t you?
Clinton was an example as was Bush for you….
You state:
“I’m well aware of the workplace rules where I’m employed, and I attempt to adhere to them”
Attempt??? That’s an interesting way to cover your ass and not answer a question at the same time. Try directly answering a question…or directly saying that you won’t answer it…show some intellectual integrity here….
I don’t care about your employment status as much as I care about you not being on the up and up about who you are and WHY you are….that’s much more interesting to me.

146. torridjoe spews:

xmas @ 145

I’m simply acknowledging that we are all likely ultimate failures when it comes to adhering to every rule, law, guideline or Scripture on the books (or Book, as it may be). I was pre-empting what I saw as the inevitable stringing out of this diversion, towards you saying, “So are you pretending that you’ve NEVER acted outside your workplace rules? Never? Not once?”

I have already said that poorly informed allegations from strangers who seek only to intimidate, don’t deserve serious reply. I had thought that to be fairly direct.

147. Don spews:

JCH @ 82

I don’t hate anybody. I merely have a policy of giving right wing haters a dose of their own medicine so they know what it tastes like. There’s no emotion involved.

148. Don spews:

chard @ 107

You want to know who spews name-calling? I do. It’s called mutually assured destruction (MAD) for short. Same principle the nuclear standoff runs on. The Far Right pushed the button first. I merely push back. Whatsa matter, is getting bullied a new experience for you? Any time our friends on the right want to call a halt to the ad hominem attacks, name calling, personal mudslinging, etc., I’m willing to participate in that conversation.

149. Don spews:

JCH @ 108

What do YOU read? Mein Kampf? (You wanna insult my reading habits, go ahead, but how you like them apples huh? I can do that, too. Let me know when you want a truce.)

150. Don spews:

zap @ 115

“Yes G.W. was President during 911. Yes, he spends a significant amount of his time in Texas. I’m quite astonished that the Secret Service allowed you to review his schedule in such detail. Did you take into account bathroom breaks too?”

Oh my, what a cavalier dismissal of the on-the-job derelictions of President Deer-In-Headlines. I’ll bet next you’re going to blame 9-11 on Clinton.

“Cessna is still selling airplanes, I’m sure aided and abbetted by kind lawyers willing to help Cessna through litigation. Now why don’t you pull out yearly sales records and really blow us away. Those would be far more instructive.”

To quote Bill Clinton, “it’s the economy, stupid.” OF COURSE airplane sales went down during the recession!!! Du-u-uhhhhh …

“Why do you think so many doctors are fleeing Washington State? Do you think exhorbinant malpractice insurance might have something to do with that? And why oh why would it be so costly? It’s the greedy insurance companies, right? I think I smell some very strong intellectual dishonesty blowing from your direction…”

Interesting that you raise the point of “intellectual honesty” given that your partisan talking points reek of it. The way it works is (a) you figure out who you’re going to attack, (b) you figure out how to attack them, (c) you disseminate the talking points to your partisan supporters, and (d) the public then gets inundated with your partisan bullshit. Now let’s see, who are the #1 campaign contributors to Democrats, why it’s TRIAL LAWYERS!!! So why are we not surprised that GOP partisans are attacking TRIAL LAWYERS?!!! Du-u-uhhhh.

Insurance 101: There only two places insurance companies get money from, premiums and investment income. When investment income tanks, premiums have to go up. Let’s see, in 2000 the stock market crashed, and for the last several years interest rates have been hovering around 1 percent, and insurance premiums went up. Du-u-uhhhh. (Scene in Karl Rove’s office: “Hey guys I have an idea! Let’s blame it on TRIAL LAWYERS!!!” applause in background)

151. Don spews:

Oh, I forgot to mention, objective analyses show that (1) litigation accounts for less than 1/2 of 1% of U.S. health care costs, and (2) states with malpractice award caps do not experience lower malpractice insurance premiums.

152. Don spews:

zap @ 116

Where does it say the sales declines were caused by lawyers?

153. marks spews:

Don @ 151

Which objective analysis are you quoting?

154. Don spews:

chard @ 119

Maybe we would worry less about whether neocons are Nazis if they were less eager to pass sedition laws so they can jail anyone who criticizes their warmongering.

I’m very interested in the process whereby my money became “their” money (a) after Halliburton got it, (b) after Enron’s illegal market manipulation doubled my electric bills, (c) after Bush took three-quarters of a trillion dollars of it from taxpayers like me and gave it to drug companies and HMOs in return for next to nothing.

155. Don spews:

chard @ 119

In the first place, I’m not a government attorney, I’m retired. It’s really none of your business, but since you asked, after I had been working for the state more than 25 years I was making $50,000 a year. If you have to relocate or work out of town, the state reimburses you nothing for your moving expenses or out-of-town living expenses. There are no signing bonuses, performance bonuses, merit bonuses, stock options, or employee discounts. As of July 1, my friends still in state service will have gone for 4 years without a cost of living raise. Of course, it goes without saying that most state employees make less than I did as an attorney. The guy who plows I-90 in Snoqualmie Pass in winter makes less. The caseworker who protects children from neglect and abuse makes less. The fish biologist who keeps your favorite fishing hole stocked makes about the same as I did or slightly less. The person who reissues your driver’s license makes much less. All state employees are required to contribute to the cost of their health insurance and retirement out of their modest pay. And as a state employee, you also get to deal with people who think your status as a public employee is a license to abuse or even threaten you.

It may come as a surprise to you that I have a special fondness for Dave Reichert. No matter what the other liberals on this board say about him, I like him. The reason for that is, he was the detective assigned to protect my family the last time I received a death threat, and he took good care of us. Yes the nut came into my neighborhood. Yes he stalked my kid. Reichert made sure we were protected, and he checked in frequently to see if we were okay. In a time of need, a diligent cop is something you can’t take for granted or even necessarily hope for, but he went the extra mile to keep my loved ones safe and I will always be grateful to him for that, whatever partisan or philosophical differences may separate us. Having someone come into your neighborhood with the expressed intention of killing your family because you did your job is just one of the many fine rewards of public service. So go ahead, bash my public service; bash other public employees’ public service, extol the virtues of private enterprise and private wealth. I’m used to taking that kind of shit off assholes, it doesn’t bother me.

By the way, Dave Reichert is a public servant, and in my book a damn fine one. So why don’t you bash him, too. Show us you’re an equal opportunity basher who will never let partisanship govern his bashing of public service and public servants.

156. Don spews:

Jerkoff Creepy Hater @ 121

“You are too nice to the pigs ['guvment hack Don et al]”

Come and get me, asshole. I’m just as nasty as you are.

157. Don spews:

chard @ 124

“But tell me, what is the difference between that govn’t atty and YOU?”

worlds

158. marks spews:

Don @155

I have found a post that I can abuse you with as a softy :)

I knew you had it in you, given time and energy…

More to the point, I am sorry you had to go through that. Being abused on a comments blog is nothing compared to this…

159. Don spews:

chard @ 131

Who the hell do you think you’re kidding, trying to pin the racist label on the Democrats?

160. Mark spews:

Don @ 152

“Where does it say the sales declines were caused by lawyers?”

It is a six-degrees thing. Don’t you know that lawyers are at fault for almost everything? Even lawyers will admit that, though they’ll always say it is other lawyers that are the problem, not them. ;)

161. Don spews:

Xmas @ 137

“It’s the same mentality that released Bush’s DUI record just days before the election.”

There was a time when I would have considered this dirty pool, but you know what, Republicans have dirtied our country’s politics for so long with their anything-goes approach to political competition that frankly I think they have it fucking coming to them in return. WHO does Karl Rove work for? Dubya gets NO sympathy from me. Also, it wouldn’t have been an issue if he hadn’t been drunk driving in the first place. And, the idea of the rich and powerful using their influence to cover up something like that, get embarrassing records destroyed, etc., so they can run for public office leaves a bad taste in the mouth for sure.

162. Mark spews:

Don @ 159

You should do a bit of research on women’s suffrage. The first major voting rights for women — passed by a state DEMOCRATIC legislature — were specifically designed to counter the black vote. Problem was that the women didn’t vote lockstep with their husbands as the Dems had expected and so they tried to take back voting rights — only to have the GOP governor veto the leg.

163. Diggindude spews:

Sounds like christmasghost is trying to drum up some life on his vacuous,…ahem…..blog!
You are really looking sad here ghost!

164. Don spews:

marks @ 158

thanks. I later learned he was affiliated with Aryan Nations. It’s hard to describe what it’s like to follow your kid to school every day to make sure he/she gets there alive. Yeah, I was packing, and if he had run into me on the street there would be one less neo-Nazi.

165. christmasghost spews:

Joe said…..”I’m simply acknowledging that we are all likely ultimate failures when it comes to adhering to every rule, law, guideline or Scripture on the books (or Book, as it may be). I was pre-empting what I saw as the inevitable stringing out of this diversion, towards you saying, “So are you pretending that you’ve NEVER acted outside your workplace rules? Never? Not once?”
Sorry Joe…you are really barking up the wrong tree.I asked about one rule, not all of them, for one. And you assume that because of my name I am a Christian I gather from the reference to scripture? Wrong again….
I will just assume that you don’t want to disclose that info and that is your right and fine by me. A direct answer is always preferable….but it seems to be difficult for the far left. Why is that?
I guess it’s just part of the mind set…big oil bad…big coffee good.LOL…….
And Don…..you really are mad aren’t you? Why? This is not a rhetorical question…….

166. Don spews:

Mark @ 160

Okay, you’ve got me. I have nothing against lawyer-bashing as a sport. Every year, when a new bar association president takes office, we are subjected to the ritual speech decrying lawyer-bashing and lawyer jokes, and I go … these stuffed shirts who take themselves SO seriously need to get a life. They should go see a movie or something.

167. Don spews:

Mark @ 162

Yes, Mark, we all know the history of reconstruction, the Solid South, and southern racists Democrats but that’s ancient history. What’s relevant to today is the GOP is the party that harbors racists and tolerates racism.

168. dan spews:

Ghost @ 134
At Bush rallies you have to sign an oath to get in??? Never been to any have you? You should really stop reading the moveon.commie’s talking points.
So anyone you don’t like in the media is a prostitute?

Jeff Gannon/Guckert offers himself on his web for $200.00 what do you call that?

My problem here is that no matter what link or article or Movie link I send you, You are like Chico Marx.” who you gonna believe, me or you own eyes”.

Since I don’t go to Move on.org, your right I probably could find articles there that talk about all the things I accused the Bushies of doing.
But like all Righties..you would rather shoot the messenger than listen to the message.
So go on Trash all the intelectuals who go on Air America/write in the NY times or go to a Moore film. They actually quote The Bush Governments own studies and quotes and photograghs to make their points.
Versus the Rush/fox group.. that use the phrase…”sources says, or “in some peoples opinion” to open everyone of their stories.. Or best of all with Britt Hume, cut a speech into three pieces, hook back together and attribute it to FDR.
Here is a game for you…sit down for an hour of Fox and take a shot everytime you here either one of those phrases…..you’ll be plowed in not time. In the meantime what proof do you need of my accusations that you attribute to, Whatever. WHAT DOES IT TAKE FOR YOU?

169. christmasghost spews:

#163…Hey Digs…long time no hear.LOL. Why must you always take the low road?Especially since I have always been so nice to you. I find it very interesting here….don’t tell me that you have joined forces with the likes of Susan and are too busy marking territory that you don’t read?
This is fascinating…I have never heard a conservative tell someone on a blog or website that they shouldn’t be there because they are a liberal. Very interesting….
What are you liberals so afraid of anyway? Ideas different from your own?

170. zapporo spews:

Don @150 … – Yes of course, the POTUS can perform meaningful work ONLY in the state of Maryland? Don, welcome to twenty first century technology. We both know that one is a red herring. I’m not against trial lawyers – I absolutely detest self-interested life-sucking bottom feeders that do nothing to make this world a better place, regardless of chosen profession. Now, on to market economics 101. Insurance companies provide a service, namely mitigating risk. Anything that causes the estimated cost of that risk to increase – fraud, unconscionable litigation, natural disasters, excessive govt. regulation, etc… causes the cost to cover that risk and thus premiums to rise. Guess what, somebody has to pay those premiums. The is no free lunch. Higher Costs w/ same output = Reduced Efficiency = Lack of Competitiveness = Reduced Market Share AND Reduced Profitability = TOTALLY SCREWED. Those Cessna figures are real. On to health care costs. Where do you account for and allocate the costs for Doctors that over-prescribe diagnostic procedures because they’re scared $%(*less of malpractice suits delivered by whom? Trial %^&*ing lawyers. Let’s finish with my hacking partisanship. Hahahaha. That’s rich. I’m just Joe Sixpack terrified by pseudo-liberal anarchy and illogic.

171. Mark spews:

Don @ 167

Wyoming is in the South?

“What’s relevant to today is the GOP is the party that harbors racists and tolerates racism.”

That is just a stupid, overbroad statement. To say that is true would be like me saying that Democrats are in favor of eco-terrorism.

It is true that the two parties see the solutions to many racial issues differently. Personally, I think that the stereotypical Dem position that minorities are somehow permanent victims in need of the Guilty White Person’s help is patronizing, disgusting and in its own way racist. Taking, for example, the African-American community, there are differing opinions by very smart people on how to solve that community’s problems — some of which, if suggested by a white person, would be branded racists by the Left.

I also see major, positive things done by the GOP — albeit ones also with positive PR benefits for the party. Are you saying that Powell, Rice, Gonzalez, Gutierez, et al are ALL some variant of Uncle Tom? I would challenge you to find a more diverse cabinet than W’s.

172. Diggindude spews:

hey ghost@ 169
what better way to join the fray, than to shoot the villain?
LOL!
Just yankin your chain.
I like this site. I find lots to agree and disagree with here.
Seems more “even” than being the 1% like i was over at you know where.

173. christmasghost spews:

Hey Digs…I am the villian now? LOL.
Yeah you are definitly in the majority here…although you have a more rational voice than most…..geez, did I just compliment you? I must be losing my edge….
Good to see you still around.

174. torridjoe spews:

Ghost @ 165
Did you ever stop to think that maybe I was referring to Scripture because I am Christian? You do way too much assuming, not enough thinking.

zap @ 170
so despite the fact that the doctor trade in the PNW is booming rather than dying, you keep on with the malpractice canard. Why did you leave out the most likely, most obvious reason for increasing rates to mitigate risk–DOCTORS WHO FUCK UP? Why did you leave out the most likely, most obvious reason for over-testing–BECAUSE YOU GET REIMBURSED PER PROCEDURE?

Mark @ 171

Just because minorities continue to be victimized, doesn’t make it a permanent condition. But following the destructive paths pushed by the GOP would be what would make the condition permanent.

175. zapporo spews:

TJ @ 174 I’m not going to argue with you on this one. Instead of trying to pull off the nearly impossible, reasoned persuasion within this blog, I’ll point out a few “reasonable” links:

From the national governor’s association:
http://www.nga.org/cda/files/1102MEDMALPRACTICE.pdf#search='malpractice%20insurance

From a U.S. House of Representatives Economic Study:
http://www.house.gov/jec/tort/05-06-03.pdf#search='malpractice%20insurance

From our beloved local newspaper:
http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sited/story/html/155108

The malpractise problem really has very little to do with doctors and much more to do with a broken system:

“…The incidence of malpractice, however, is quite distinct from the filing of malpractice claims. A defining feature of the medical liability system is that most events of malpractice do not result in a legal claim, and most claims of malpractice are not tied to any act of negligence. Overall, approximately 80 percent of malpractice claims show no signs of a negligent injury.(8) Conversely, only about 3 percent of injuries due to negligence result in a claim.(9) These figures suggest that the medical liability system malfunctions on a fundamental level…”

(My emphasis added, See House article for source data references)

If any physicians review this blog, please feel free to chime in and let us know how it “really is”.

176. zip spews:

Don & torridjoe @ trial lawyers fan club (.org)

Are you guys seriously arguing that trial lawyers and our tort system are perfectly fine, fair to everyone (victims and professionals alike), and in no need of fixing? Get out in the real world! Talk to anybody, not just doctors, who is in a profession that pays for professional liability insurance and you will understand that you are wrong. That includes not only doctors, but contractors, engineers, architects who build your GMA-firendly condos and your government offices.

177. zip spews:

torridjoe @ 174

I’m not a doctor, don’t even really know any doctors, but I’m still insulted as hell over your mindless comment above. Get out in the real world and put your own self at risk of being sued out of existence by these scum suckers. Or pay those insurance premiums out of your own pocket for a few years just to protect your livelihood. Your comment exposed you as a typical “progressive” jerk. You really should stick to topics you know something about other than the usual lefty crap. Way to keep an open mind there, pal.

178. Mark spews:

TJ @ 171

“…the destructive paths pushed by the GOP [re: minorities]…”

Could you please be more specific? (and please don’t cite some Far Right nutball)

Also… Do you truly think that most Republicans don’t like minorities or ????

What are your thoughts on Bill Cosby’s (and others’) “tough love” comments for their own community?

179. torridjoe spews:

zapp @ 175
I liked the “reasonable” source from Rep Miller, who appears to have written and researched the entire thing himself. No one has said medical liability is not an issue of inefficincy; what’s being discussed is what drives prices and whether applying pressure on another part of the equation drops prices–in this case by nearly 2 whole percent at best, in his wildest dreams. But look at the spurious point he makes that you quote: many many validly negligent acts (we call those doctor errors) go unreported. So far so good, but then as an apparent shocker, he says 80 percent of claims show no sign of negligent injury–as if to imply that 80% of the time, someone is getting money who doesn’t deserve it. Imply, he essentially says it by explanation.

But everyone knows you don’t win jack for simply filing a claim. You have to WIN. The relative cost for filing a claim is negligible to the insurance industry. Taking claims is what they DO. Paying them out, is not. In any case, it’s good to know that in 80% of claims, either it was clear from an apparent review of the record, or its dismissal as insufficient, that there was no need for a payout. And then there’s the chunk of people who HAVE a good claim but don’t win, and you’re left with people who legitimately have a medical negligence claim.

There’s no reason for the insurance industry to drop prices; health care competition is weak, because so many are tied by plans at work, not even able to change PART of it except one month a year. Where it’s been enacted at the state level, prices haven’t dropped.

Talk about tort reform if you want–I’m all ears for improving the system of handling claims. I’ve heard good ideas about a professional advice/mediation agency to weed out shitty claims before they start racking up legal bills. But when every argument about tort reform somehow comes down to greedy lawyers who want to earn money for people with horribly maimed or dead relatives, and that the best plan is putting a ceiling on what someone’s life is worth at the hands of intentional negligence, I lose interest. It neither addresses nor fixes the problem–amazingly enough, just like the Social Security issue. What it does, is try to phase out the problem by phasing out the benefit.

180. torridjoe spews:

Here’s one:

*undermine public schools by promising to give a tiny minority the ability to go elsewhere, leaving a weaker school even further behind. Require broad new federal initiatives, then refuse to fund them. Cut educational grant and loan programs, especially at the community college level. Legislate against consideration of race as a factor in admissions.

181. Mark spews:

TJ @ 180

I presume you’re referring to my question @ 178. I don’t disagree with you assertion that education hasn’t always been funded appropriately. HOWEVER, I’m pretty sure that “underfund community colleges” is not in the GOP platform nor has it been a stated position of GOP pols.

As for legislating against racial preferences in admissions, you’re right… and wrong. The GOP is in favor of things like I-200 and the recent statistics @ the UW have proven this the CORRECT position.

So, you’ve picked ONE thing that has some impact on the minority community (as well as all others) — education funding. I was hoping you’d have a laundry list of why Mainstream Republicans are minorities’ worst enemies. You also didn’t respond to my Cosby question. C’mon… you can do better than one vague example.

182. Chee spews:

There must be something right about America. Immigrants still think so. They risk drowning and dying to come to America so as to get out from under dictatorship and away from the horrors of the more barbaric systems. Americans are too well fed to be appreciative and too used to complaining to be thankfull. The family unit means everything in other cultures, moreso than in America where it has been unrespectfully treated. Reality is, family has been replaced by prozac and Dr. Phil.

183. christmasghost spews:

Torridjoe @174 “Did you ever stop to think that maybe I was referring to Scripture because I am Christian? You do way too much assuming, not enough thinking”
You know, Joe, that thought never crossed my mind for a minute.Perhaps it’s some of your other posts that made that a non starter as a thought…or maybe I just hear it so many times because of my blog site name I assumed that’s where you were going ,as you assumed that I would be grilling you about “following all workplace rules”.So we both assumed.
So you are a Christian, but not a Liberal Democrat,and you make the posts you do….oh, okay….whatever you say.
Intellectual integrity is a very good thing………..

184. freeformfred spews:

Christmasghost @ 183

If you “hear it so many times because of my blog site name”
how come nobody visits your blog? Apparently you’re talking about it, but nobody is listening. I guess that explains why you spend so much time blogging here.

185. christmasghost spews:

#184…FRED…….You should really come up with a more subtle and clever way of telling someone to shut up and go away, don’t you think?
I am very happy with my blog stats thank you…something you obviously don’t know anything about.
And you were listening weren’t you?
Isn’t this fascinating…..the amount of time I spend commenting [not blogging dear] here is a big concern. The amount of time one of your own spends here posting on his employer’s dime is NOT an issue.
WOW…..see why it’s important to follow the rule….it’s not WHO’S right, it’s WHAT’S right……..???

186. freeformfred spews:

christmasghost @ 185

sorry, “dear”… I used the wrong terminology, my bad. You’re “commenting” here when you could be “commenting” there,(or would you be blogging there..since you are the owner of the blog?) if only someone cared enough about what you say to comment there, which apparently no one does. I never told you to shut up or go away. Touchy about your blog, aren’t you?
As for the “one of our own” you keep wringing your hands about, each of us is “our own”. Why do you insist on condemning everyone with a similar politcal opinion because of the misdeeds of one person? Pretty immature way of thinking, don’t you think?

187. christmasghost spews:

Fred….why do I INSIST ON CONDEMNING EVERONE?
That is rich. And what do you say about all Republicans? Hmmmmm?
It IS an immature way of thinking…thanks for pointing out the errors of the Democrat’s ways for me.Allow me to quote Howard Dean “I hate all Republicans…” It’s also very short sighted, as is giving a free pass to people who are doing things they shouldn’t, where they shouldn’t, and when they shouldn’t……..

188. freeformfred spews:

Ghost, scroll up and read again. I never said anything about ALL Republicans. I said something about you. Spinning the question doesn’t answer it. Why do YOU insist on condeming every democrat for the misdeeds of one? Because Howard Dean says he hates Republicans? Is that why?

189. Taiwan spews:

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