Open thread 7-22-05

Um… I’m busy this morning, so I’ll give you your open thread now, and then come back with something snide a little later.


  1. 2

    Puddybud spews:

    Why not put a blog article on Bernard Goldberg’s new book: “100 People Are Screwing Up America”? Where Michael Moore is #1, Al Franken is #37?

    Remember he described himself as a “old fashioned John Kennedy liberal” in his first Book “BIAS”. Doubt most lefties read this book. He reiterates this on the CBN web site. This is what I told Priscilla about me. The Democratic party left us.

    Excerpt: “This is serious stuff for sure. But Goldberg will also make you laugh as he harpoons scoundrels like the congresswoman who thinks there aren’t enough hurricanes named after black people, and the environmentalist to the stars who yells at total strangers driving SUVs – even though she tools around the country in a gas-guzzling private jet.” – Typical screams of the lefty environmentalists.

    Goldy calls as old fashioned Democrat Goldberg a whack-job. Goldberg describes Goldy’s heroes as whack-jobs. Isn’t that a conundrum? Well here it is on the open link.

  2. 3

    Artie spews:

    Morality Test:

    You are in photojournalist in Florida during a hurricane. You are caught in the midst of flying debri and flooding. Houses swirling and people drowning in the chaos. You see a man floundering in the torrent, fighting for his life. It is George W Bush about to be pulled under the raging waters.

    You can save his life or shoot a dramatic and possible pulitzer prize winning film. Here then is the morality test:

    Do you select high contrast color film, or do you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?

  3. 7

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Anybody here yesterday’s anouncement by Southwest. It shows another part about the state’s problems with buisnesses, as even the Port of Seattle is not immune to Public Works Projects over budget. The terminal upgrades at Sea-Tac, combined with the third runway(which is more of a safety measure than a capacity builder). If Southwest pays for the new terminal at Boeing Field, I say go for it. I also say, repeal the Wright Ammendment, that has clearly failed in it’s sole purpose, kill Southwest Airlines, as it has flourished. The only taxpayer dollars that would be necessary at KCIA would be a few improvements to Airport Way, which in most cases, is a city road, and possibly an infill station for Sounder at the Passenger Terminal.(In the NYC area, at least one airport is now plugged into the Rai Network.)

    I heard on the radio last night, (Frank Sheirs filling in for Tony Ventrella), a caller come in who tried to hide the fact that he worked for Alaska, mentioned that a GPS-aided aproach could be made so precise, that noise impacts on both Magnolia and West Seattle could be negated. Plus, the Next Generation 737 is one of the quitest jets in the sky.

  4. 8

    Robert Rabbit spews:

    Putty Brains @ 2

    Putty, it’s unnecessary for you to prove you’re a lame brain. We all know that already. How the fuck can Michael Moore top any list of “people who are screwing up America” when he holds no office, commands no troops, has no control over interest rates or trade deficits, doesn’t write the budget, can’t vote on bills in Congress, has no subpoena powers … and so on? You are so fucking stupid its unbelievable.

    I was listening to the Ed Shultz Show on Air America this morning when a caller offered a term to describe what you are — “Bush-stupid.” Being Bush-stupid means being intentionally, willfully, and culpably ignorant of reality.

  5. 9

    Robert Rabbit spews:

    Reply to 3

    Definitely go with B & W — it will capture the pathos of the moment in a way color never can. Kind of like an old Burt Lancaster war movie.

  6. 10

    Robert Rabbit spews:

    Wait, I have a better example — “Psycho” just wouldn’t be the same film in color.

  7. 11

    Robert Rabbit spews:

    Comment on 7

    The last time I heard someone promise to use their own money to pay for improvements was the NASCAR gang that wanted to build a $220 million track in Snohomish County. Turns out they lied — they wanted to public to pick up the whole tab.

    I feel certain Southwest is gaming us. Betcha when county officials start looking at the fine print they’ll find all kinds of public money in there … like 100% of the cost. There aren’t very many CEOs left in America who haven’t learned how to play this game. The taxpayers pay for your plant and you pocket the profits in the form of a $10 million yearly salary. Nowadays it’s CEO malpracticeif you DON’T do that!

    I don’t trust these Southwest guys any farther than I can spit. There’s a rat in there somewhere.

  8. 12

    Charmin (formerly known as dj) spews:

    In case you missed it in the cartoon thread. . . .

    Mark Fiore has a new animation that captures the most important elements of LeakerGate. It can be found here.

  9. 13

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    From the Seattle Weekly (not a right wing slander site):

    “We’ve Got the Wrong Guy”

    Liked the summary statement:

    “In all likelihood, Rove did not do what he is accused of. But somebody did.”

    Let’s find out who the somebody is and then see if Dems are so as excited to fire/hang/imprison that somebody.

  10. 14

    GBS spews:

    Roger Rabbit @ 10 re: Artie @ 3

    I have to disagree with you. Psycho is, as you know, as psychological thriller because you never really see the gore of what’s happening except in your mind’s eye.

    In the case Artie describes, I would personally want to see the yellow tinting of his trousers while the tears of panic are streaming down his bright pink cheeks, followed by the “aftermath” shot of his blue lips with white foam drooling out of his mouth. And, of course, the obligatory brown stain that follows after your final moment.

    Yep, I want it captured in living color, so to speak.

  11. 15

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    Artie @ 3

    Switch “Bush” with “Kerry” is it still funny? I personally don’t think so. I don’t want Kerry dead just because I don’t agree with his politics. Seems like an extremist viewpoint to me, no matter which side of the political spectrum you are on.

    GBS @ 14

    Thanks for the lurid details. That was quite a constructive critique of Bush’s policies.

  12. 16

    GBS spews:

    CF at 15

    Thanks for the compliment. You’re all right in my book.

    Yeah, I thought the brown stain analoby at the end will pretty much sum up Bush’s legacy in Jan 2009.

  13. 18

    GBS spews:

    CF @ 15


    I think I’m going to have to agree with you again. Whew, I don’t think I’m feeling well today.

    I have to agree with you that switching “Bush” with “Kerry” in Arties allegory would definitely not make it funny.

  14. 19

    candrewb spews:

    13) I kinda liked the sentence in the 2nd to last paragraph:
    “This is, once again, all about the lies that the Bush administration used to justify its war. As with the Downing Street Memo, we are learning more and more about just how desperate some members of the Bush administration were to have their war.”

  15. 20

    ConservativeFirst spews:

    GBS @ 18

    “I think I’m going to have to agree with you again. Whew, I don’t think I’m feeling well today.”

    Maybe you only think you’re feeling bad, when you are actually feeling better! Maybe you’re turning into a conservative! j/k Thanks for admitting you agree with someone you don’t usually agree with. For the record I thought Roger, whom I don’t usually agree with, had several well stated posts on the Roberts nomination. I happened to agree with them as well.

    candreweb @ 19

    I chose to disregard the expected barbs about the “lies” and the DSM. I thought the title, “We’ve Got The Wrong Guy”, was quite apt for the discussion on Rove going on here in regard to to prison/firing squad, etc. At least the Weekly believes in due process or at least proof before convicting someone.

  16. 21

    RonK, Seattle spews:

    ConservativeFirst — a little unfinished business re the charges your made about Cantwell fundraising in the McGavick thread:

    You never did fess up that none of the “special interest” contributions you listed were PAC money … just contributions by employees of firms like Microsoft and Boeing. (For MSFT, it averaged about $1.50 per employee … I didn’t check the corresponding GOP totals for MSFT employee contrib’s.)

    For source of the IMPORTANT NOTE: As a matter of policy, this member of Congress does not accept PAC money. Any contributions listed below were reported by the PACs, not the member, and will likely be amended at some future date after the contributions are returned. Also note that any contributions listed below from “candidate committees” are not considered PAC contributions, but rather contributions from one campaign committee to another., see
    (which is the “List PAC Contributions” link from the page you cited).

    Of course that page is not current (we’re in the 2006 cycle), and the OpenSecrets numbers are even more out-of-synch than usual at the moment since July 20 was a PAC reporting date.

    But there’s an IMPORTANT HINT for you in the categorized PAC contributions. Total receipts for business and labor PACs — “Communication/Electronics”, “Finance/Insur/RealEst”, “Health”, “Lawyers & Lobbyists”, i.e., special interest PACs — are NEGATIVE … a minus $1500, net.

    With the exception of $150 under “Pro-Choice”, the remaining $37,650 falls under “Candidate Committees” (as described in that IMPORTANT NOTE).

    The hint? At any given time, in any given period, Cantwell’s report lists negative amounts (refunds) corresponding to positive amounts (receipts), PAC for PAC … but not necessarily landing in the same reporting period, as these are the PAC-reported amounts — not campaign-reported amounts — and it takes some of them a while to catchup.

    You can see scads of paired offsets in her “lifetime batting record” on,,, etc.

    This itemization, for instance, straight from the FEC:

    And here’s a lifetime summary:

    PAC Contributions Totaled by Interest Heading
    TOTAL 2006 2004 2002 2000
    1. Agriculture $2,000 $2,000 $0 $0 $0
    2. Communication, Technology $193 $0 $1,000 -$1,000 $193
    3. Energy, Natural Resources $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
    4. Finance, Insurance -$750 $0 -$750 $0 $0
    5. Business – Retail, Services $0 $0 $0 $0 $0
    6. Health Care $2,000 $2,000 -$500 $500 $0
    7. Law $1,000 -$250 -$1,250 $2,500 $0
    8. Organized Labor $500 $0 $0 $500 $0
    9. Single-Issue Groups $4,527 $1,641 $150 $2,139 $597
    TOTAL: $9,470

    Thought you’d want to know.

  17. 22

    Captain Pike spews:

    When Nixon was running for president against Humphrey,Kissinger,at Nixon’s behest, sabotaged the Paris Peace Talks by influencing Diem to publicly proclaim that he would have no part of a peace process that included communists. This derailed the peace talks and probably cost Humphrey the election. Republicans are old hands at treason.

  18. 23

    Charmin (formerly known as dj) spews:

    ConservativeFirst @ 20

    “We’ve Got The Wrong Guy”, was quite apt for the discussion on Rove going on here in regard to to prison/firing squad, etc.”

    Well, some of us on the left have pointed out repeatedly that he may not have violated the The Intelligence Identities Protection Act. That does not mean he has not committed a crime, since that Act is quit restricted in its scope. Leaking classified information in a way that damages national security can still be prosecuted under other statutes.

    “At least the Weekly believes in due process or at least proof before convicting someone.”

    So, I haven’t seen anyone around here seriously suggest that Rove be lynched or jailed without being convicted. It would seem that we all believe in due process (even for “unlawful combatants” and citizens acused of fighting against the U.S.).

    What you have heard is people calling for Rove to be fired for leaking classified information (whether he was a primary or confirming source) and have his security clearance revoked. Those actions do not require a conviction. Rather, they require Bush and Rove to sit down and determine whether or not he violated the Classified Information Nondisclosure Agreement he signed. If he has, then he should resign or be fired. Given the two conversations he had with reporters, it seems highly likely he violated his agreement.

    Finally, Bush is taking heat for not enforcing the spirit and letter of the Nondisclosure Agreement.

  19. 24

    Robert Rabbit spews:

    According to a story in today’s Seatte Times, Southwest Airlines wants government to pay the $100 million cost of road improvements. The story didn’t say who would pick up the tab for extra runway maintenance due to the wear and tear caused by up to 31,000 takeoffs and landings a year by commercial sized jets. But the biggest punch of all to the taxpayer’s breadbasket will result from $4.5 billion of taxpayer-financed improvements to SeaTac sitting partially idle because if Southwest moves to Boeing Field so will Alaska Airlines.

  20. 25

    marks spews:

    Pike speak @ 21

    (I’ll forego the honorary “captain” for ya, since it does not seem to fit…)

    That was almost, but not quite, the stupidest thing I have ever read. Since the headless one does not count, perhaps it was the stupidest thing I have ever read.

    Humphrey cost Humphrey the election.


    dj @22

    Bush is taking heat for not enforcing the spirit and letter of the Nondisclosure Agreement.

    No, he is taking heat for a Clintonesque gaff: Until he qualified this week that he would fire anyone who violated the law, he had previously stated he would not have anyone involved in this leak working in his administration.

    The question is now before the assembly: Is Rove guilty of involvement?

    Yes, in that he made statements of fact under condition of anonymity that seem to run contrary to the NDA.

    Should he be fired?

    I await the SP to determine the timeline, and declare Rove either a primary, secondary, or tertiary target. If the primary, he will be fired. If tertiary, it was a waste of time. If secondary, flip a coin…

  21. 26

    Captain Pike spews:

    Marks! You got your thumb out of your anus long enough to post more ignorant crap.

  22. 27

    Captain Pike spews:

    Marks:If there were a peace process in place for Iraq and Clinton sabotaged it to help Hilary’s presidential prospects, could you see that as treason?Re read the comment about Nixon and Humphrey and see if you can see the similarities between the two scenerios–the one real, the other imaginary. Your ability to survive in this world without using your cerebral cortex is nothing short of amazing!

  23. 28

    marks spews:

    Pike speaks again

    Marks! You got your thumb out of your anus long enough to post more ignorant crap.

    Thank you, Pike…I want you to know that, much like my drinking has never had any negative affect on your drug problem, my thumb in my ass has never had any affect on your stupidity.

  24. 31

    Donnageddon spews:

    They are evil, they hate America, they have paid trolls.

    Ladies and gentlemen, I present The New Republican Party!

  25. 33

    marks spews:


    Paid trolls? I am not about to defend any presupposed right-thinking idiots, but PAID TROLLS?

    Man, get real…

  26. 34

    Artie spews:

    Hey, that’s was fun! I’m a bastard and not funny. Whoohoo!

    If the flood victim were instead Kerry, the decision would be easier to make. Saving a war hero and a dedicated, accomplished public servant is a no brainer. Bush, no matter how handlers distort his agenda and record, has brought unforgivable shame to the Oval Office and the nation. A decision to save Bush would be harder. So, call me immoral too. Whoohoo!

    Why did George ‘crotch bulge’ Bush take viagra before the jet flight to the USS Lincoln for the Mission Accomplished photo-op?

    Answer: He wanted to pretend he was flying the jet.

  27. 35

    Roger Rabbit spews:


    “No Donna– we hate the terrorists. You know the ones you come runnig to defend at Gitmo.”

    You do a pretty good job of defending the terrorists in the White House, State Department, and Pentagon too.

  28. 37

    Jerry Springer Jr. spews:

    When I think of what a conversation in hell would be like, this is what I imagine. Can you FEEL the warmth?

  29. 38

    Captain Pike spews:

    Rove and Libby are traitors and should receive the death penalty. Bush should be impeached and forced to live in Texas.

  30. 39

    JCH spews:

    [Hey Goldy! I’m soooooo sure you are just as concerned about this as I. Hell, could this be as big as Karl Rove? Goldy, are you listening, or will you block this post after a “review”? [hehe……..JCH, Pahoa, HI]

    Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:11 p.m. EDT
    Report: Justice Department Probing Durbin, Rockefeller CIA Leak

    The Justice Department has launched a criminal investigation into whether Democratic Senators Dick Durbin, Jay Rockefeller and Ron Wyden leaked details about a secret “black ops” CIA satellite program last December in a move that may have seriously compromised national security, former Deputy Undersecretary of Defense Jed Babbin said on Saturday.

    “The CIA made a request to the Justice Department to investigate and possibly bring criminal charges against these three [senators],” Babbin told WABC Radio host Monica Crowley. “My information is that investigation is ongoing.”

    Story Continues Below

    Mr. Rockefeller is the Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee and Mr. Durbin is the number two ranking Democrat in the Senate.
    Media reports on the satellite leak last December indicated that the Bush administration was concerned about public comments by Durbin, Rockefeller and Wyden and that the CIA had requested a Justice Department probe.

    “The formal request for a leaks investigation would target people who described sensitive details about a new generation of spy satellites to The Washington Post, which published a page-one story about the espionage program Saturday [Dec. 11, 2004],” a Justice Department official told the Associated Press at the time.

    But the same official told the AP that Justice “has not decided whether to investigate.”

    Former Deputy Undersecretary Babbin’s comments on Saturday were the first indication that such a probe was actually launched and is ongoing.

    “The fact of the matter is that [Durbin, Rockefeller and Wyden] divulged something that was above and beyond top secret and frankly, they probably blew the strategy and the hundreds of millions of dollars that were being spent to pursue it,” he told Crowley.

    “The acknowledgement of [the “black ops” program’s] existence is not even proper and the acknowledgement of them and the details of them can very well damage national security,” Babbin added.

    Asked if he thought the three Senate Democrats should have their security clearances revoked for the duration of the leak probe, the former Defense Department official said, “Absolutely and forthwith. I mean, they should have been revoked at the time of the leak.”

    “There’s really not much doubt about the leak having occurred,” Babbin told Crowley. “It’s in the press records, it’s in the Congressional record. We know what they did.”

    “The only question,” he explained, “is how much damage was done by the leak. And that’s part of the criminal investigation right now – to do a damage assessment, to figure out how much this is going to cost us strategically and militarily.”

  31. 40

    HowCanYouBePROUDtobeAnASS spews:

    You all keep grinding your teeth and Rove-whining along with Steisand while GW outflanks you/ignores you.

    I love that GW makes an ass of liberals every time they turn around! That would indeed make him the Horse and all of you the appropriately named, self proclaimed HORSES ASSES!

    appropriately named, self proclaimed HORSES ASSES … it seems you CAN get at least one thing right.

  32. 41

    zip spews:

    Artie, You are a true dick head. What if your next door neighbor was a vicious person, abused his wife and kids, etc. and his house was on fire? Would you call the fire dept?

  33. 42

    Captain Deaf Guy spews:

    I agree Captain Pike that Bush should be out of the office, see the IRAQ war? its all Bush’s fault!!!!!

  34. 44

    JCH spews:

    [Hillary/Maxine in 2008!!!!!!! [hehe]
    Los Angeles — U.S. Rep. Maxine Waters led a rally Saturday calling for the United States to withdraw from Iraq, where attendees tried to raise awareness of documents they said raised questions about the justification for the war. Waters said many of those in attendance, including veterans, relatives of soldiers, and civil rights activists, “have not had an opportunity to voice their opinions” about the war.

  35. 45

    Artie spews:

    Look Zippy. The morality test was of course a joke. But, as long as you’re going to take offense, then if it were your house afire, no, I wouldn’t call the fire department.

    When a person harms others, (serious harm), that person may be in hot water when they need help from those they’ve harmed. Bush is a reckless, apathetic, fool, liar and mascot for powerful economic interests whose malicious agenda for world order has brought ruin. His drowning won’t stop the agenda he imposes, but neither will saving him. There’s a special place in Hell for George Bush.

  36. 46

    Captain Deaf Guy spews:

    I just hear things but I dont know whats going on but way back in may/june there was a law suit aganist the king county by the gov of the state of wa, why that? explain… thanks…

  37. 47

    marks spews:

    Artie @45

    The answer to the question is a no-brainer. Of course I would make the attempt to rescue you. In that way, were I successful at rescuing you, I could make your life a living hell by pointing out that I never draw the line at helping a needy person whose political thought runs contrary to my own, while you are a partisan political hack who could not care any less about the life of another who holds differing political views.

    Still, you make a point that needs some consideration:

    You seem to think you have a moral obligation to uphold your beliefs, and if somebody holds beliefs that run contrary to them, then they should die.

    Hmmm…I don’t get it…Can’t people have differing political thoughts in this country, and still be citizens of it?

  38. 48

    Artie spews:

    Marks, I tried to make a distinction between people who bring scorn upon themselves by their actions (Bush), and people who earn and deserve respect (Kerry). I would call the fire dept if Zip’s house caught on fire. Zip only called me a dickhead, which is not a serious, grievous, wrongful harm. If an abusive neighbor’s house caught fire, I’d call the fire dept in deference to the entire family.

    This is not a partisan matter. I don’t hate Bush because he’s a republican or because his political thought runs contrary to my own. I hate his policies which ought to be recognized as extremely ruinous for everyone. Marks can’t see or won’t admit that Bush’s policies hurt everyone. Does this make Marks the real political hack? Would Marks rescue me from drowning if I were some monstrous criminal?

    If Bush were drowning in the situation described, I’d use black and white film. The less dramatic the better. Most people would be interested in the film, merely for proof of his passing.

    No member of the Bush Dynasty should ever hold public office, ever again. Crooks, liars, traitors and mental midgets, the entire lot. They have long seen themselves as royalty and above the law.

    Just to be fair, Hillary Clinton should not run for President. I doubt she is even considering it, knowing how it would divide the nation. The Bush’s know their politics are bitterly divisive, but because of their royal stature, they feel they are entitled to do as they F-ing please.

  39. 49

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    After what the Republicans have done to us, they deserve 8 years of Hillary and whatever she does to them.

  40. 51

    Puddybud spews:

    Hey JCH & Proud Ass. That Senate story is powerful as the Sun-Times link. I noticed like always the Donks or Moby Trolls as I like to call them IGNORE those posts. Dammit if Rove is guilty hang his ass, but this speculation is hilarous on the Moby Trolls parts

    I am spending this week working down the street from Ground Zero in NYC. They have memorials on firetrucks. There was a fire call and we watched on one of the streets we were walking past and we saw many young firemen going to the fire. The wife and I took a walk this afternoon in the city watching the people and enjoying the sights. Ground Zero is well Ground Zero. If you haven’t seen it for yourself you must The pictures and post cards remind you of what was here before. We came to visit on July 2001. Who would have thunk it two months later, they be gone. Am I glad it wasn’t Al Gore? HELL YEAH!

  41. 52



    I hear you puddy. I truely believe God was looking out for us on November 7, 2000. I heard that even some donks on 9-11 were counting there blessing that Bush not goofball Gore was the president. I dont blame them… I sure was.

  42. 53

    Artie spews:

    When Condoleeza Rice said, “Who could’ve known they’d use airplanes as missles”, she inferred the horrible truth: the Bush administration did nothing to stop 9/11 because they were ‘expecting’ a less severe Pearl Harbor event, by which they could begin Operation Attack Iraq.

    Obviously, God is not listening to the putrid prayers of the Christian Fundamentalist cult.

  43. 54

    Puddybud spews:

    Uhhhh, Artie: Where is the proof of any “truths” you are saying, besides the quote of Dr. Rice? The attack was expected overseas based on previous attacks.

  44. 55

    Artie spews:

    The abominable truth, Pud dud, is that the Administration was repeatedly warned about the threat of terrorism and did either nothing or actively thwarted the efforts of intelligence agencies.

    Ms Rice ‘inferred’ the truth behind this negligence and malfeasance by her words, “Who could’ve known they’d use airplanes as missiles”, suggesting the administration was allowing a terrorist act to occur; an attack less surprisingly catastrophic perhaps, to our Secretary of State bitch.

    The Bush administration fails so many measurements of good government, US democracy may not survive. These fascists neo-cons will come for you, Pud dud. Dont think yourself immune because of your loyalty.

  45. 56

    NoWonder spews:

    Artie @ 55

    ‘…Administration was repeatedly warned about the threat of terrorism…’

    It is clear the CIA mindset was pointed in the wrong direction well before 9/11, or even the Bush era.

    Frome the lips of the latest Wilson defender:

    ON SATURDAY, former CIA analyst Larry Johnson gave the Democratic party’s weekly radio address and excoriated President Bush for not having fired Karl Rove and others in connection with the leak of CIA officer Valerie Plame’s name to the press.

    On July 10, 2001–two months before the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon–Johnson wrote an op-ed for the New York Times (“The Declining Terrorist Threat”) in which he argued that Americans were “bedeviled by fantasies about terrorism” and, in truth, had “little to fear” from terrorism. And, in turn, he rebuked his former colleagues in the national security bureaucracy for using the “fiction” of the terrorist threat to pump up their budgets.

  46. 57

    Puddybud spews:

    NoWonder – Oh no!

    Here is a stoopid reporter asking the standard Moron.Org blame American/Britain crowd.

    REPORTER: Do you feel that in a sense your policies may have put people in this position?

    PRIME MINISTER BLAIR: Well, I think I said to you before, that I feel that people who are responsible for doing these things are the people who do them.

    PRIME MINISTER HOWARD: “On the issue of the policies of my government and indeed the policies of the British and American governments on Iraq that the first point of reference is, once a country allows its foreign policy to be determined by terrorism (the don*****don pull out crowd), it’s given the game away to use a vernacular. And no Australian government that I lead will ever have policies determined by terrorism or terrorist threats. And no self-respecting government of any political stripe in Australia would allow that to happen. Can I remind you that the murder of 88 Australians in Bali took place before the operation in Iraq.

    And can I remind you that the 11th of September occurred before the operation in Iraq. Can I also remind you that the very first occasion that bin Laden specifically referred to Australia was in the context of Australia’s involvement in liberating the people of East Timor. Are people, by implication, suggesting we shouldn’t have done that? When a group claimed responsibility on the website for the attacks on the 7th of July, they talked about British policy, not just in Iraq, but Afghanistan. Are people suggesting we shouldn’t be in Afghanistan? When Sergio de Mello was murdered in Iraq, a brave man, a distinguished international diplomat, a person immensely respected for his work in the United Nations, when Al-Qaeda gloated about that, they referred specifically to the role that de Mello had carried out in East Timor because he was the United Nations administrator in East Timor. Now, I don’t know the mind of the terrorist. By definition, you can’t put yourself in the mind of a successful suicide bomber. I can only look at objective facts are, and the objective facts are as I’ve cited, the objective evidence is that Australia was a terrorist target long before the operation in Iraq. And, indeed, all the evidence, as distinct from the suppositions, suggests to me that this is about hatred of a way of life; this is about the perverted use of the principles of a great world religion that, at its root, preaches peace and cooperation. And I think we lose sight of the challenge we have if we allow ourselves to see these attacks in the context of particular circumstances rather than the abuse, through a perverted ideology, of people and their murder.”

    Where has any democratic lefty called it as it is?