NFL Week 17 Open Thread

Last week of the NFL season, here’s what matters:

Miami (10-5) at NY Jets (9-6) – Chad Pennington comes back to the Meadowlands to face his old team. If the Dolphins win, they win the AFC East after going 1-15 last year.

New England (10-5) at Buffalo (7-8) – The Bills looked like the team to beat in the AFC East in the beginning of the season. Now they could end the Patriots playoff hopes.

Jacksonville (5-10) at Baltimore (10-5) – The Ravens can clinch a playoff spot with a win against the Jaguars.

Denver (8-7) at San Diego (7-8) – Whoever wins this game will be the winner of the AFC West and one of the worst playoff teams of this decade.

Chicago (9-6) at Houston (7-8) – The Bears and the Vikings are tied for the NFC North title going into today. The Bears needs to beat the Texans and hope the Vikings lose.

NY Giants (12-3) at Minnesota (9-6) – The Giants have already clinched home-field advantage throughout the playoffs, but the Vikings win the NFC North with a win.

Oakland (4-11) at Tampa Bay (9-6) – The Buccaneers need to win and have the Eagles beat the Cowboys to get the last playoff spot.

Dallas (9-6) at Philadelphia (8-6-1) – If the Cowboys win, they get the last playoff spot. If the Eagles win, they need the Buccaneers and either the Bears or the Vikings to lose to make it in.

Detroit (0-15) at Green Bay (5-10) – If the Lions lose, they’ll be the first ever 0-16 team in NFL history. Mitch Albom excoriates what has become the most embarrassing front office in pro sports.

Comments

  1. 1

    Broadway Joe spews:

    Whatfuckingever. I don’t think I’ve ever been this disinterested in an NFL season in my entire life. BTW, ESPN’s article on the the horrible year we Seattle sports fans have endured is a must-read:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/espn.....eattle2008

    Perhaps HA should put up a running countdown until Sounders FC’s season opener (March 19?)……

  2. 2

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Broadway Joe–
    I’m with you.
    The older I get, the less interesting pro sports is.
    I do enjoy college & high school yet.
    But Pro Sports??
    Kind of died for me when Johnny U died.

  3. 3

    spews:

    The Falcons-Rams and Panthers-Saints games also matter. Somehow, a Panthers loss and a Falcons win makes the Birds a conference champion.

    Also I’m trying to figure out what the difference is here. A difference of 10% in completion rate is only 40 plays over the season; Vick had more successful runs than that. It can’t all be Michael Turner …

  4. 4

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Yawn. One team wins, one team loses, and whether anybody cares is a matter of tribalism.

  5. 6

    The Guy With No Car spews:

    4

    You’re only mad because the only time a rabbit gets to be in a sporting contest is during a greyhound race. And they replaced a real live rabbit like yourself with a mechanical one at that.

    I’d be mad too.

  6. 7

    Piper Scott spews:

    @6…Guy,etc….

    Actually…another sporting contest is rabbit hunting, only there live rabbits are the centerpiece…and eventual main course.

    Is it time to post some new recipes for preparing rabbit?

    The Piper

  7. 8

    spews:

    @3
    Wow, you’re right, I missed that. I thought the Panthers had clinched. They’re kicking the Saints ass right now though, so it’s moot. :)

    The difference for the Falcons wasn’t one thing. It was Turner, it was Ryan, it was a good young defense getting a year older, it was a new coach, and it was one more year away from the Michael Vick mess. They’re a good team.

  8. 9

    spews:

    Just an observation and question after reading “Calls grow around world for calm in Gaza” on cnn.com.

    Why is it I never read about the nations of the world calling for calm when Hamas sent dozens of rockets into Israel before Israel’s latest retaliation? This always seems to be the case. Nations of the world never call for Hamas to stop attacking Israel. They only condemn the violence when Israel responds. Where’s the outrage and world-wide condemnation when missiles are regularly launched from Gaza into Israel?

  9. 10

    spews:

    @9
    Where’s the outrage when Israel sets up the blockades and military operations that caused the rocket attacks from Hamas? Why is it that only Hamas’ response is criticized, and not what Israel does to provoke the response?

  10. 11

    spews:

    Lee, a question. Hamas purposely locates rocket launching pads in residential areas of Gaza. Israel purposely avoids locating its rocket launching pads in residential areas of Israel. Why do you think that is?

  11. 12

    spews:

    @11
    Because Israel has the technology to easily destroy rocket launching pads that aren’t hidden. Hamas does not have the technology to do the opposite. If Hamas did have that technology, the Israelis would be hiding their launching pads in residential areas.

  12. 13

    Piper Scott spews:

    @12…Lee…

    There is no moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, so don’t try to suggest one. In the dispute between them, there is a bad guy and there is a good guy.

    Bad guys deliberately put their populations at risk in a cynical attempt to leverage the humanitarian impulses of good guys who don’t do such things.

    Hamas is a gang of thugs, terrorists, and unrepentent murderers.

    The Piper

  13. 14

    spews:

    Mitch Albom’s a smug bastard who holds the fact that he’s 1/2 elf over the rest of us, like anyone cares. Watch–in 10 years he’ll write “Sundays with Millen” and it’ll stay on the Best Sellers list for 106 weeks and become a bazillionaire. Again.

  14. 17

    Some Guy In Lakewood spews:

    Please God bless the Eagles! I want a new version of Hitler the The Cowboy Fan downfall! Like the one on You Tube.

  15. 18

    Broadway Joe spews:

    Actually Cyn, I think my disgust with the NFL this season comes from three things: the Seahawks sucked hard and right away, working with CalNeva’s sportsbook (reducing games to mathematical formulas takes some of the glamour out of it, y’know), and lastly being out-of-market and surrounded by (cough, hack) Raiders fans. Being surrounded by those shallow-enders will make you kick the habit pronto.

    I don’t have much love for the college game right now either. 1A (Bowl Subdivision, phooey!) needs a playoff badly, but that’s only going to happen when the NCAA grows a pair and forces schools and conferences to play by their rules or else.

    Then they’ve gotta get rid of the Sun Belt Conference……….

  16. 19

    spews:

    There is no moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, so don’t try to suggest one. In the dispute between them, there is a bad guy and there is a good guy.

    Both sides in that conflict have done terrible things. The Palestinians have set off bombs among and launched rockets at innocent civilians. The Israelis have copied the tactics of their former oppressors and systematically ghettoized the Palestinian people, destroying their ability to survive as an economic entity. If you think one of these tactics is “better” than the other, fine. I disagree.

  17. 21

    spews:

    @13
    There is no moral equivalency between Hamas and Israel, so don’t try to suggest one. In the dispute between them, there is a bad guy and there is a good guy.

    No, there is a situation where each side has a long list of misdeeds, and the world powers need to negotiate a settlement.

  18. 22

    Daddy Love spews:

    Israel is commiting war crimes in Gaza. Period.

    Collective punishment is a war crime. Since fall of 2007, Israel has kept the 1.5 million Gazans under a blockade, interdicting food, fuel and medical supplies.

    Disproportionate response is a war crime.
    – In 2001-2008, Hamas rockets killed about 15 Israelis and injured 433, and they have damaged property. In the same period, Gazan mortar attacks on Israel have killed 8 Israelis.
    – Since the Second Intifada broke out in 2000, Israelis have killed nearly 5000 Palestinians, nearly a thousand of them minors.

    The Israelis on Saturday killed 5% of all the Palestinians they have killed since the beginning of 2001–230 people were slaughtered in a day, over 70 of them innocent civilians. In contrast, from the ceasefire Hamas announced in June, 2008 until Saturday, no Israelis had been killed by Hamas (apparently two have been killed in the last 24 hours). The infliction of this sort of death toll is known in the law of war as a disproportionate response, and it is a war crime.

    Say what you like about Hamas. The facts are that Israel is a member of the UN in “good standing,” is signatory to the Geneva Conventions, is one of our closest allies, and is a nation of war criminals. Much like the USA.

  19. 24

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Although I doubt it will happen, there is a New United States Football League proposed to begin play in Spring 2010. It has some interesting different rules than the NFL, some adapted from other leagues, such as the 4 point Field Goal from beyond the 50(NFL Europa League).

    http://www.newusfl.com/

    Arena Football, on the other hand, is taking a hit, 2009 season cancelled, but the af2 development league, will play. An interesting irony, the AFL players association supposedly was going to take a pay cut to keep the season going.

  20. 25

    Daddy Love spews:

    23 T

    Typically off-topic “look over there!” trollery.

    Rachel Corrie died years ago, but yesterday Israel killed more than 250 Palestinians in response to rocket attacks that killed no one.

  21. 26

    spews:

    @25

    That’s nice, but will you now please answer the question? In that picture, do you believe Rachel Corrie was working for peace, or promoting hate?

  22. 27

    Daddy Love spews:

    Not to mention that most of the dead in Gaza are the police. Israel is trying to destroy civil society in Gaza.

  23. 28

    Daddy Love spews:

    26 T

    Nope. I don’t even believe the picture. Why should I?

    I do not know who is in the picture. I don’t know what those people are doing. I don’t know if the photographs are genuine. Got news?

  24. 29

    spews:

    I am absolutely disgusted by the Muslims I see on TV protesting Israel’s defensive action. Why didn’t they protest Hamas’ bombarding Israel with rockets before Israel took this action? Where were they then? Why didn’t they protest then? Why did they remain silent? Fucking hypocrites.

  25. 30

    Daddy Love spews:

    Funny, though, how no one ever really tries to argue from fact that Israel is NOT committing war crimes. It’s all “But what about what the OTHER guys did?” and “Rachel Corrie, now there’s a thing we should all talk about instead.”

    Pathetic but typical.

  26. 31

    spews:

    @28

    Google Rachel Corrie. Then click images.

    I wonder if some of the children in that picture were influenced by her, and grew up launch rockets into Israel?

  27. 32

    Daddy Love spews:

    29 T

    Disproportionate response is a war crime even if it is claimed to be defensive. Collective punishment is a war crime even if it claimed to be defensive. And what anyone else says about anyone else’s actions has nothing to do with whether Israel is committing war crimes, which it is. Admit it.

  28. 33

    Daddy Love spews:

    31 T

    I wonder a lot of irrelevant things too, but I don’t try to substitute that for reasoning or fact.

  29. 35

    Daddy Love spews:

    Google Rachel Corrie?

    Wikipedia:

    Rachel Aliene Corrie (April 10, 1979 – March 16, 2003) was an American member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) who traveled to the Gaza Strip during the Second Intifada. She was killed by a Caterpillar D9R armored bulldozer operated by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during a protest against the destruction of Palestinian homes by the IDF in the Gaza Strip. The details of the events surrounding Corrie’s death are disputed; an Israeli military investigation ruled the death was an accident, while the ISM maintains that Corrie was run over deliberately.

    We alreay know that the “Israeli military” commit war crimes. Can they be believed? Should they be believed? I think not.

    Wikipedia:

    The International Solidarity Movement (ISM) is a non-governmental organization focused on protesting Israeli activities in the Arab-Israeli conflict. It was founded in 2001 by Ghassan Andoni, a Palestinian activist; Neta Golan, an Israeli activist; Huwaida Arraf, a Palestinian-American; and George N. Rishmawi, a Palestinian activist. Adam Shapiro, an American, joined the movement shortly after its founding and is also often considered one of the founders.

    The organization calls on civilians from around the world to participate in acts of non-violent protests against the Israeli military in the West Bank and previously the Gaza Strip. The group has attracted criticism as well as praise for its peaceful methods. It has recently been criticised for working alongside other groups to pressure Palestinian artists to boycott the One Voice Peace Summit and for helping to prevent the Summit from going forward by creating a competing event. ISM and affiliated groups critical of the Summit say that One Voice fails to fully support Palestinian rights guaranteed under international law.

    Funny what you can find out there.

  30. 36

    Daddy Love spews:

    34 T

    I’m saying that Israel is committing war crimes right now, and you’re not even disputing it, although true to form you are accusing me of anti-Semitism.

  31. 37

    spews:

    @35

    I see you deliberately didn’t click images, like I instructed you to. You said you didn’t believe the picture. Now, you will go back, Google Rachel Corrie, then click images. Now go do the homework I’ve assigned you.

  32. 38

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Also, anybody catch the special on ESPN recently on the Greatest Game Ever Played? I thought it was interesting myself. Especially current Indianapolis Colts coach Tony Dungee talking it over with former Baltimore Colts receiver Ray Berry, and recent Indianapolis Colts place kicker Adam Vinitari was discussing kicking with then New York Giants kicker Pat Summmerall.(Sorry if I did not get the spelling right). This game vaulted the NFL into national media. I also liked where they talked to former Baltimore Colts Marching Band members, and Cheerleaders, especially the part about the move. They felt betrayed, but were telling Indianapolis fans as they were headed into the Super Bowl when the Colts won, that the curse was lifted, forgive and forget, and the reason was in their mind, Peyton Manning was just like Johnny Unitas.

    http://www.latimes.com/sports/.....9126.story

    I like how Baltimore fans sure love their old teams that no longer play there. The Colts band played at parades into the 1990s, and there are even some in Baltimore that root on the CFL’s Montreal Alloutes, formerly the Baltimore Stallions when the CFL came south for two years in the 1990s. The move by Art Modell of the Cleveland Browns to Baltimore killed that team’s chances of staying viable. The overlap of the two league’s seasons. Was the Stallions successful? 2 Grey Cup appearances, won one.

    http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/story/?id=256743

    I wonder if there are anybody out there that cheer on Milwaukee Brewers(probably not), and I have no love lost for the Oklahoma Thunder in the NBA, heard they are playing just as bad as they played in Seattle at times, and already fired the coach. Other than that, not following how they are doing.(Carlissimo’s firing got mentioned on ESPN’s Around the Horn and Pardon the Interruption, my favorite ESPN shows).

  33. 39

    Daddy Love spews:

    34 T

    Hamas is not comitting war crimes. Israel is occpuying their territory and thus falls under the geneva Conventions, not the other way around. Hamas may be comitting acts of war, but not war crimes.

  34. 40

    spews:

    @36

    You are the worst kind of human being. You don’t denounce the act, you denounce the act when certain people do it. You remain silent when those with whom you side with or sympathize with commit war crimes and genocide.

    I am absolutely disgusted by the Muslims who are protesting Israel. They are human garbage.

  35. 41

    spews:

    @39

    OMG, you have no idea that Israel withdrew from Gaza 3 years ago!!!

    HAHAHA!!!!!!

    Oh, and since Israel withdrew from Gaza, Gaza has fired over 6300 rockets into Israel.

  36. 42

    Daddy Love spews:

    Fourth Geneva Convention “relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War”

    Article 4 defines who is a “Protected person:”

    Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

    Collective punishments

    Article 33. No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
    Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

  37. 43

    Daddy Love spews:

    41 T

    They are currently in military control of Gaza. They have blockaded entrance. It is an occupation.

    And I am objecting to war crmes and not acts of war. There is a difference that you are unable or unwilling to acknowledge.

  38. 44

    Daddy Love spews:

    41 T

    You remain silent when those with whom you side with or sympathize with commit war crimes and genocide.

    Make a factual case that someone not named Israel is doing either in Gaza. Then we can discuss the facts.

  39. 46

    slingshot spews:

    Do you think FDR and Truman would not be war criminals if they hadn’t been the victors?

  40. 48

    John spews:

    @43 They are currently in military control of Gaza.

    ———

    You have no idea what you’re talking about.

  41. 49

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    As for the NFL part of this thread, it’s official, Detroit is now 0-16.

    http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28408239/

    At least the Seahawks won a few more games. Just like the Cougars winning a few more than the Huskies. By the way, any Cougar Fans, Paul Wulf had a few losing seasons at Eastern before he got into the top of the Big Sky Conference. The two Montana schools were tough ones to overcome. Problem is, when you get to the top, rarely do they give somebody a few years to get going.

  42. 50

    Daddy Love spews:

    45 T

    If Daddy Love is consistent in his logic, he MUST conclude FDR and Truman were war criminals.

    Honestly, what the fuck do you know about logic? Or, or that matter, war crimes?

    Hey, here’s a question: Did the Palestinian Authority sign and ratify the Foruth Geneve Convention? If they did, then they are bound by same. Israel did.

  43. 51

    Steve spews:

    Geez, it would seem that Troll hates Palistinians even more than he hates Jews. Hmm, I wonder if he hates them more than he hates blacks. Might be a tossup. Can you imagine how much he would hate a black, liberal Jew who decried the killing of 250 Palistinians? That’d be the four-bagger of hate there.

  44. 52

    Daddy Love spews:

    Hell, we invaded iraq on the strength (supposedly) of “UN resolutions” that they violated.

    How many UN resolutions is Israel currently in violation of?

  45. 53

    spews:

    @50

    I got him! I trapped him with his own logic! He refused to answer my question because he knew no matter how he answered it, he’d be screwed.

    I won!

  46. 54

    WeBentOverTheGOP spews:

    Time to remember why the American people bent the GOP over and fucked them in the ass.

    Along with creating the worse economy in US history…along with allowing 9.11 on Bush’s watch…along with ruining the reputation of the US around the world with the botched Iraq war…the Bush brigade has allowed the Middle East to blow up as well.

    THIS is precisely why the American people, in their infinite wisdom R E J E C T E D the views of trolls and other right wing crazy fools. This is precisely why Americans voted in Democrats. This is precisely why the GOP and the right wing assholes that remain within it’s grasp are irrelevant, stupid, silly, discredited and rejected. Because of these constant failures – one after the other.

    America has judged the right – and the verdict is in.

    G U I L T Y of attempting to destroy America and all the good she stands for.

    So in short, those of you on the right who are stupidly commenting on this thread, remember…we bent you over on Nov 4th for a reason. Nobody cares what you cowards and idiots think. NOBODY!

  47. 55

    spews:

    @51

    Rachel Corrie and Daddy Love are the same kind of person to me. They remain silent when violence is committed by people with whom they sympathize with, and only speak out against violence when it serves their cause.

    No very honorable or admirable, in my opinion.

  48. 56

    John spews:

    @54 Nobody cares what you cowards and idiots think. NOBODY!

    ————-

    Well, maybe almost nobody. After all, Obama did invite Rick Warren to give the invocation at his inauguration.

  49. 57

    Daddy Love spews:

    48 J

    Gee, John, would you argue that prior to 2005 that Israel NEVER responded disproportionately or collectively punished? I complained about their war crimes thena and was predictably accused of anti-Semitism then as well.

  50. 59

    Steve spews:

    “I won!”

    Alas, not this time. Daddy Love kicked your butt. Again. As usual. But I have to ask, are you hoping to win some kind of troll prize, like an evening with the Puddy’s goat or something?

  51. 60

    Daddy Love spews:

    Collective punishment requires occupation, about which I may have been in error. Although Israel is about to move in an occupation force.

    However, disproportionate response does not require occupation.

  52. 61

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    A good high school football team, is one that has started from scratch. Barrow High School’s Barrow Whalers. This year, in the Whalers third season, hosted the first High School Playoff game in the Arctic Circle. It has had some payoffs in the classroom. Gives students something to stay in school for. Fear of flying not a good thing to have on this team. Nearest paved road other than the airport runway is in Prudhoe Bay, where the Haul Road(aka Dalton Highway and Kamikaze Trail) begin. Every year now, Nightline seems to be doing a story on this team.

    http://newsminer.com/news/2008.....me-above-/

    http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/

    As for Nightline, they sure have kept it going despite outliving it’s original purpose as a latenight special report update on the Iran Hostage Crisis.

  53. 63

    Daddy Love spews:

    53 T

    As usual, you cannot articulate how you supposedly “won.”

    Niether FDR nor Truman were in charge of any occupation other than those of Germany and Japan after WWII. I do not know of credible claims about war crimes during that time.

    Perhaps you can refresh my memory. Can you?

    I do not have high hopes, because you seem incapable of distinguishing between acts of war and war crimes.

  54. 64

    spews:

    @62
    Dude, you got your ass handed to you. Does someone here need to explain to you the difference between war and terrorism again?

    @55
    They remain silent when violence is committed by people with whom they sympathize with, and only speak out against violence when it serves their cause.

    Which is exactly what you’ve been doing by remaining silent on Israel’s violence and speaking out against Hamas.

    Dumbass.

  55. 65

    Daddy Love spews:

    So, Troll, you:
    – Cannot or will not refute a claim of israel’s war cimes.
    – Cannot or will not mount a factual case for Hamas and the PA being guilty of war crimes (even though you claimed you could), which at least would require their ratification of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
    – Cannot or will not explain under what circumstances FDR or Truman could credibly be accused of war crimes (and I think FDR was dead when the USA signed and ratified the Fourth Geneva Convention)
    – Cannot or will not explain how any of this means that you “outsmarted” me

    You are BIG on claims and pretty thin on support.

  56. 68

    spews:

    @63

    Okay, let me see if I understand your logic. Israel is guilty of war crimes for killing over 200 Gazans in a disproportionate response. But the USA, which nuked two Japanese cities, killing up to 200,000 civilians, and firebombing the civilians in Dresden, killing up to 40,000 people (and firebombing countless other Axis cities) was not guilty of war crimes?

    Please explain your logic.

  57. 72

    spews:

    @71

    Okay, let’s delve deeper into how you think. Why do you consider what Israel just did in Gaza a war crime, but what America did to Dresden was not?

  58. 73

    John spews:

    Obama’s views on Hamas are clear. He wrote last March:

    “Hamas is a terrorist organization, responsible for the deaths of many innocents, and dedicated to Israel’s destruction, as evidenced by their bombarding of Sderot in recent months. I support requiring Hamas to meet the international community’s conditions of recognizing Israel, renouncing violence, and abiding by past agreements before they are treated as a legitimate actor.”

    See: http://jta.org/news/article/20.....righthamas

  59. 75

    spews:

    @72
    In addition, the U.S. has never, even during WWII, withheld supplies that would help civilians, as Israel has repeatedly done in Gaza.

    Finally, all of this is moot because the difference between the conflicts of WWII (a war between two sovereign nations) and the Israel-Gaza conflict (a war between an occupier and an occupied populace) means that what the U.S. did in Dresden is not the same as Israeli attacks on its own territory.

  60. 76

    spews:

    @69
    Right now I’m just trying to find out if you are consistent in your logic.

    You’re far too stupid to be judging something like that.

  61. 77

    spews:

    In two days, over 1,300 heavy bombers dropped over 3,900 tons of high-explosive bombs and incendiary devices, destroying 13 square miles of Dresden, killing up to 40,000 civilians.

    In the last two days, Israel’s target strikes have killed 300 people.

    Israel just committed a war crime, and America did not?

  62. 78

    spews:

    @77
    The reason that what Israel is doing in Gaza is a war crime is because Israel is blocking necessary medical supplies (and other goods) from reaching the civilians who are effected by the tragedy.

    Comparing the situation in Gaza to the bombing of Dresden is comparing apples to oranges. The nature of the two conflicts are entirely different. What the U.S. did in Dresden was war. What Israel is doing in Gaza (by denying humanitarian supplies to territory that’s within their border), is a crime.

    Are you going to turn your brain on here and stop making an ass of yourself, or do you have some more stupid to share?

  63. 79

    spews:

    @75

    Lee, the US targeted civilians in the Dresden firebombings, in massive numbers. Even Winston Churchill called it an act of terrorism.

    “Churchill subsequently distanced himself from the bombing.[98][103][104] On 28 March, in a memo sent by telegram to General Ismay for the British Chiefs of Staff and the Chief of the Air Staff, he wrote:

    It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land… The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.
    The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.”

  64. 82

    My Goldy Itches spews:

    Go Chargers! What an unbelievable turnaround. They were dead and buried at 4-8 a month ago and 3 games behind Denver, and now they will be hosting Indianapolis next week. San-Diego-SuperChargers!!!

  65. 83

    Daddy Love spews:

    Th USA and Germany were two nation-states who had each declared war on the other. There are rules of war, but as far as I know, the various actions undertaken by the various participants were within the existing rules of war, such as they were, as they existed at the time. later, after WWII, in response to the theretofore unimaginable atrocities committed in the name of war, the rules of war were refined and changed through the creation and adoption of the Geneva Conventions.

    Currently, Israel and the Palestinion Authority are NOT two nation-states in state of declared war, but rather that Israel, as the vastly more powerful neighbor who is trying to control and subjugate the Palestinians instead of supporting their right to historical Palestine as a homeland, is militarily scourging Gaza and the West Bank at will and without regard to a response proportionate to their own actual danger.

    And this, if you can think it through, is the difference between the US in WWII and Israel’s treatment of Gaza.

  66. 84

    Daddy Love spews:

    81 T

    Name a war crime committed by the US in Japan after the blockade. Cite why it is a war crime (the applicable international law).

  67. 85

    spews:

    @80
    The Israelis are attempting to keep that border shut as well.

    Again, by comparing a conflict between two sovereign nations to an occupying force denying an occupied populace basic human needs, you are comparing apples to oranges. No one is saying that the Dresden bombing was ice cream and pony rides, what we’re saying is that what Israel has done with the blockade is a war crime that the U.S. was not guilty of during World War II.

  68. 86

    spews:

    @81
    Um, the US and the Russians did blockade Japan.

    The fact that you actually think that this is a good argument is terrifying. Do you realize how small an area Gaza is? Gaza has fewer square miles than the city of Seattle (142.5 – 139). It is not a large self-sufficient nation like Japan. It relies on things produced outside of its small area, which is mostly urban. Just like a city, there are limits to the amount of food and other necessities that it can generate when shut off from the world (not to mention their energy needs).

    Will you please do whatever it takes for you to obtain a clue?

  69. 87

    spews:

    The Muslim middle east is an area of about 2,000,000 square miles. Israel is 8,000 square miles. There are 48 Muslim majority countries. Yet with all that area, Muslims cannot stand the thought of Jews having a state in “their land.” That is the root of this problem.

    This is what Israel has to put up with … this is why Israel has to put up walls and fences:

    http://www.lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

    Can someone show me a web page with an equally lengthy list of acts of terrorism that Jews have perpetrated upon Muslims?

  70. 88

    spews:

    @87
    The Muslim middle east is an area of about 2,000,000 square miles. Israel is 8,000 square miles. There are 48 Muslim majority countries. Yet with all that area, Muslims cannot stand the thought of Jews having a state in “their land.” That is the root of this problem.

    Um, no. You’re changing the subject. We’re talking about the area of the Gaza Strip, where the blockade is happening. There is currently no war between any Muslim majority country and Israel. Not to mention that even Iran and Saudi Arabia have offered to officially recognize Israel as part of a peace deal to give the Palestinians their own state. Of course, Egypt and Jordan already recognize Israel’s right to exist.

    Can someone show me a web page with an equally lengthy list of acts of terrorism that Jews have perpetrated upon Muslims?

    If you want to educate yourself, there are a number of books that detail the history of Israeli occupation. Here’s one. There are plenty of others. I’d also suggest that you read Walt and Mearsheimer’s book on the Israeli Lobby, which explains as well as anything how the false frame that you buy into has become mainstreamed in American society.

    There is no “good guy” and “bad guy” in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, just a lot of violence, oppression, and retaliation.

  71. 89

    Michael spews:

    There is no “good guy” and “bad guy” in the Israeli Palestinian conflict, just a lot of violence, oppression, and retaliation.

    I’ll second that.

  72. 90

    John spews:

    There are rules of war, but as far as I know, the various actions undertaken by the various participants were within the existing rules of war, such as they were, as they existed at the time.

    ——————

    Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal used for the Nuremberg Trials stated:

    “The Tribunal established by the Agreement referred to in Article 1 hereof for the trial and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis countries shall have the power to try and punish persons who, acting in the interests of the European Axis countries, whether as individuals or as members of organizations, committed any of the following crimes.

    “The following acts, or any of them, are crimes coming within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal for which there shall be individual responsibility:

    “(a) Crimes against Peace: namely, planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances, or participation in a Common Plan or Conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the foregoing;

    “(b) War Crimes: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity;

    “(c) Crimes against Humanity: namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war,14 or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of domestic law of the country where perpetrated.”

    The focus is explicitly on the Axis countries. And with good reason, since it allowed the Allies to ignore a number of events that would have broadened the focus on their conduct. These events included: the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact of 1939, and the subsequent division of Poland by German and the Soviet Union; The Soviet invasion of Finland; the Katyn Forrest massacre; and the widespread atrocities committed against prisoners and civilians – including tens of thousands of individuals liberated from Nazi labor and prison camps – by Red Army and NKVD units as they swept west towards Berlin through East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia and other regions in the last four months of the war. The atrocities included the widespread execution of German civilians, targeting and destruction of fleeing refugee columns, and (gang) rape of women.

    Dresden and other fire bombings could certainly have fit under (b). Gregory Stanton, President of Genocide Watch, among others, has argued that Dresden was a war crime. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B.....rld_War_II.

  73. 91

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    The firebombing of Dresden was a crime. The incineration of Nakasaki and Hiroshima was a crime. The ex post justifications for this war against civilian populations come down to this: The Allies won the war. The ends justified the means. However, wingnuts would rather point at the Weathermen and Hamas for engaging is senseless violence against innocent life, claiming the ends “never” justify the means. They do this with a straght face (cf Piper: One is evil, one is, well, something else). If your opponent is evil, all is justified. But these guys hate Dostoyevski (even though he, too, was a religious fanatic), rather funny if you think about it in an odd way.

    What Hamas is doing is peanuts, but arguably still a crime. Innocents get killed. The fact that this strategy is incredibly ineffective is even more criminal. As for “hiding” their weapons in civillian basements, what the fuck do you expect? It’s called asymmetric warfare for a reason.

    What Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is also a crime. Their long term strategy is leading them down a road leading inexorably to either apartheid or genocide. Most tend to agree such outcomes are immoral. It is a road that will lead only to defeat, and they will be judged by history as criminals of a manifestly tragic sort, but criminals nonetheless (regarless of their repeated self justifying claim to be trying so hard to “limit collateral damage”).

    Two peoples one land. One winner. The same thing happened here. How’d that one turn out?

    So. Did the Seahawks win or lose today? I wasn’t paying attention.

  74. 92

    me spews:

    Ten point for Troll!

    Zero points for Lee and Daddy Love who do not have any understanding of the hatred the Muslims have against Israel, all Jews, and the United States.

  75. 93

    spews:

    @91
    So. Did the Seahawks win or lose today? I wasn’t paying attention.

    They lost. What a terrible season.

    The firebombing of Dresden was a crime. The incineration of Nakasaki and Hiroshima was a crime. The ex post justifications for this war against civilian populations come down to this: The Allies won the war.

    That’s exactly it. And one other major distinction between those situations and the situation between the Israelis and Gaza is that one could very convincingly argue that the Allies actions in WWII, however heinous and illegal, hastened the end of that war, and that was part of the reason for it. One cannot say the same with the Israeli actions in Gaza. These actions are only creating more violence, as they’ve done for years on end. Even if the Israelis believe that their actions will hasten the end of that conflict, their delusion alone should be crime.

  76. 95

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    @92: Ah. Another Grand Inquisitor. If they hate us, all is permitted? Including hate?

    Strikes me as circular, but the wingnut mind does have a rather odd symmetry.

  77. 96

    me spews:

    Lee – as Troll mentioned – you all have not done your homework. A simple Google will show that you all had zero points and Troll had ten in your all of your discussions to include one of the major problems of Muslim hatred for all non-Muslims.

  78. 98

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Geoduck said what?

    The Israelis have copied the tactics of their former oppressors and systematically ghettoized the Palestinian people, destroying their ability to survive as an economic entity.

    Hmmm… I guess Geoduck forgets:

    $1.75 million mausoleum built over Yasser Arafat’s grave. Where did that money come from

    Or the fact Suha Arafat officially gets $22 million dollars to live off of in Paris each year

    Or how did Yassir amass a fortune?

    Of course yelling loser boy will find something to say about the article source…

  79. 99

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Proud To Be An Ass spews:

    The firebombing of Dresden was a crime. The incineration of Nakasaki and Hiroshima was a crime.

    Hmmm…? Who was the president then? Who ran Congress then?

    Just checking…

  80. 100

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Proud To Be An Ass, do you read the JPost or Haaretz at all?

    What is said by Hamas to the Europeans and the US is not what they say over there. Hamas continued to say they don’t agree with Saudi Arabia’s peace plan when 21 other Arab states agreed to it. Then you have your good friends Hizbollah – friends of Iran. And their stated objective is? It’s the same, just like Whackmaninojab’s, head of Iran. I know you have his number on speed dial. Call him up for his latest “I’ll destroy Israel” diatribe.

  81. 101

    Daddy Love spews:

    The real “crime” that stands in the way of a resolution to the Israel/Palesinian dispute (if you do not count right of return) is the continued existence and growth of the Jewish West Bank settlements.

  82. 102

    slingshot spews:

    The RAF employed the strategy of bombing German cities, and specifically civilian homes fairly early on orders of Churchill. This led in turn to the Nazi bombardment of London. Hollywood’s a bitch, and a crappy history professor.

    Have a look see at this Israeli newspaper’s site where you’ll find Israelis castigating the latest Israeli military action in Gaza (gasp!). And Arabs criticizing Hamas (no! it can’t be!)

    http://www.haaretz.com/

  83. 103

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    While I was occupied, I was thinking about the price of gas. Man our state still has higher prices… So I looked at Exxon again.

    Back in July 2008 CNN reported that Exxon Mobil once again reported the largest quarterly profit in U.S. history. Exxon posting net income of $11.68 billion on revenue of $138 billion in the second quarter. That’s $1,485.55 in profits a second.

    But you had to look very closely for the tax story. The company paid $10.5 billion in income taxes in the second quarter, $9.5 billion in sales taxes, and over $12 billion in what it called ‘other taxes’. Simply put, Exxon Mobil paid $32.361 billion in taxes in the second quarter, which works out to $4,114 in taxes per second.

    So isn’t $1,485.55 in profits a second ↓ $4,114 in taxes per second? And where do those taxes go? To feed those Donkey social programs.

    So in October 2008, CNN opines about the largest quarterly profit in U.S. history. Exxon profits again at $14.83 Billion on $137.74 Billion in revenue, but this time CNN leaves out the taxes paid. Puddy wondered why. So Puddy checked.

    Going outside of the Clinton News Network Puddy found this, Exxon paid $11.33 billion in income taxes in the third quarter, $9.33 billion in sales taxes, and over $11.86 billion in what it called ‘other taxes’. Exxon Mobil paid $32.510 billion in taxes in the third quarter, which works out to $4,133 in taxes per second.

    Wait a minute the dense as spent uranium libtards say? Profits went up much but taxes didn’t. Well if the price of oil drops, the price of gas drops, and the tax payments drop.

    So isn’t $1,865.69 in profits a second ↓ $4,133 in taxes per second? And where do those taxes go? To feed those Donkey social programs.

    So while Exxon total revenue was $392.66 Billion, it made $37.4 Billion in earnings it’s paid 94.212 Billion in taxes over the first three quarters, broken down as $31.16 billion in income taxes in the three quarters, $27.3 billion in sales taxes, and over $35.76 billion in what it called ‘other taxes’. Yet you never hear this in the biased liberal MSM. And some of us know their agenda while others play see no evil don’t you…?

    And Exxon stock has dropped over 20%. I can’t wait to see how CNN biases the report again next month.

  84. 104

    slingshot spews:

    There is the possibility that the whole thing is a neocon backed attempt to lure Iran into attacking Israel. This would escalate into broader regional or extra-regional conflict naturally including the US military. War is chicken soup for a sickly economy. And damn good for profit, too.

  85. 106

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    slingshot spews:

    Hollywood’s a bitch, and a crappy history professor.

    Yet, you lefties look up to your HollyWeird favrits…

  86. 107

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love, you seem to forget all the aid that went to the Palestinians. Puddy didn’t forget

    yelling loser boy, is the guardian ok to use?

  87. 108

    Daddy Love spews:

    Pud, why don’t you compare the share of poor little Exxon/Mobil’s taxes that went to the military (including Halliburton and funding the Iraq War Republican insider scam) to the share that went to “social programs?”

    And by “social programs” it imagine you include Social Security and Medicare, two of the most popular programs our goverment administers. If you think your little tax rant about how unfair Bad Uncle Sam is to sweet, innocent little Exxon/Mobil will convince people to disfavor SS, I believe you’re on a fool’s errand.

  88. 110

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love, I know you don’t pay attention to fact much but the Palestionian Occupied Territories directly received over $6 MMM (that’s Billion yelling loser boy) in international aid as of 2003. Then if you remember British PM Tony Blair rallied the Europeans to give another $9 MMM between 2005 and 2007.

    So where did it go? Well it’s estimated Arafat sent a big wad of the original $6 MMM to his Swiss Bank Accounts before his death in 2004 and his widow factually lives off of $22 MM a year in Paris…

    And it seems now some of this $9 MMM is used to buy Qazzam rockets from Iran to launch into Israel.

  89. 111

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love, I didn’t mention Social Security and Medicare – you did. Your comment is stupid!

  90. 112

    Daddy Love spews:

    110

    No, I don’t pay attention to YOU much. But it sounds as though you are saying that you have no idea if any or how much of the “stolen or misused” funds have gone toward weaponry. Apparently your articles aren’t helping you a bit in that regard. Gee, for someone who fashions themselves as “paying attention to fact” you seem to feel pretty free to speculate groundlessly.

    One might wonder if 9 billion dollars could have bought rockets that are targetable, but no. Or perhaps it’s not the case that the rocketeers are awash in cash.

  91. 113

    Daddy Love spews:

    111 P

    “No, YOUR comment is stupid!”

    What are you, in third grade? BTW, look up “non sequitir.”

  92. 114

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    So Daddy Love are you admitting Exxon paid almost $95 MMM in taxes and much of it went to Halliburton?

  93. 115

    gstor spews:

    This Georgian invasion is really a poke in the eye at NATO. Russia’s been pissed ever since conversations about NATO membership for Georgia cropped up a few eyars ago. They think they own that part of the world, and don’t much want so-called “Western” interference.

    I’m curious, Daddy Love, why your reaction to Russia’s invasion of Georgia was so tame compared to the “war crimes” committed by Israel?

  94. 117

    Daddy Love spews:

    BTW, “international aid” is typically not cash. It’s usually food and medical supplies. And doctors and otehr human aid which is then costed out for accounting purposes. Also, such aid is usually administered by NGOs.

  95. 119

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love puked:

    But it sounds as though you are saying that you have no idea if any or how much of the “stolen or misused” funds have gone toward weaponry.

    Ummm Daddy Love, Google “Billions of aid to Palestinians lost” Read some facts.

    If you are getting $3 MMM in aid a year where is it going? Other articles are out there with arrests for graft and fraud in Palestinian controlled territories.

  96. 120

    Daddy Love spews:

    115 gstor

    I’m not much interested in your assessment of the intensity of my reactions. You want to talk about an issue? Put forward you opinion, support it or don’t, and we’ll discuss it.

  97. 123

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Did you know the The PA guvmint jobs hiring was growing by 11 per cent a year? Maybe that’s where Queen Chrissy got her office hiring idea from.

  98. 124

    Daddy Love spews:

    119 P

    Nope. You are the one who wants to claim that the PA is using international aid funds to buy weaponry. When you have a fact to back that up, I’m listening. Until then, I’m not, really.

  99. 125

    gstor spews:

    I’m not much interested in your assessment of the intensity of my reactions. You want to talk about an issue? Put forward you opinion, support it or don’t, and we’ll discuss it.

    ok, I’ll simplify for you . . . did Russia commit war crimes against Georgia? You weren’t nearly as agitated over that as I recall, but perhaps you were being reserved.

  100. 126

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love:

    It’s usually food and medical supplies.

    And just like in Saddam’s Iraq, that food and medicine went to the people right?

  101. 127

    Daddy Love spews:

    123 p

    Considering that they have super-high unemployment due to the almost constant blockade, it makes sense for the govenrment to try to provide as any jobs as possible.

  102. 128

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love@124:

    Apparently you haven’t been reading much huh?

    “Yasser Arafat transferred millions of dollars in international aid and taxes transferred to the Palestinian Authority by Israel to purchase large quantities of weapons, the PA chairman’s former financial aide, Fuad Shubaki, has told the Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency). Some of the Israeli money, Shubaki told his investigators, was also used to fund Palestinian terror groups. “

  103. 129

    Daddy Love spews:

    125 g

    Again, your assessment of my emotional state is worth exactly what I paid for it.

    To answer your question, not to my knowledge.

  104. 130

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Hey Daddy Love, it’s in the NY Times so it’s got to be factual:

    “Despite the international embargo on aid to the Palestinian Authority since Hamas came to power a year ago, significantly more aid was delivered to the Palestinians in 2006 than in 2005, according to official figures from the United Nations, United States, European Union and International Monetary Fund.

    Instead of going to the Palestinian Authority, much of the money was given directly to individuals or through independent agencies like the World Food Program.

    The International Monetary Fund and the United Nations say the Palestinians received $1.2 billion in aid and budgetary support in 2006, about $300 per capita, compared with $1 billion in 2005.

    While the United States and the European Union have led the boycott, they, too, provided more aid to the Palestinians in 2006 than 2005. Washington increased its aid to $468 million in 2006, from $400 million in 2005.

    The European Union and its member states alone are subsidizing one million people in the West Bank and Gaza, a quarter of the population, as part of their effort to avoid creating a catastrophe from the embargo.”

  105. 133

    gstor spews:

    To answer your question, not to my knowledge.

    Not to your knowledge? So you make a distinction between Israel’s bombing of Gaza in response to rocket attacks and Russia’s invasion and occupation of Georgia? The first constitutes a war crime in your mind, the other does not?

  106. 134

    Daddy Love spews:

    133 g

    You really catch on fast. Except for the part about Georgia attacking Russia first (with some evidence of our urging), which for some reason you left out.

  107. 135

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    Daddy Love@131, I never said it wasn’t food or medicine. You accused me of saying it. All I said was some was diverted. And the guy named names.

    You asked me for proof. I read it and saved it in the PuddyArchives. Of course you’ll accuse Israel of torturing him. It’s the libtard way.

  108. 136

    gstor spews:

    You really catch on fast. Except for the part about Georgia attacking Russia first (with some evidence of our urging), which for some reason you left out.

    So the rocket attacks don’t count (speaking of catching on)?

  109. 137

    Daddy Love spews:

    Besides, Pud, Arafat is dead, Fatah is discredited, and Mahmoud Abbas is the PA president and he appears to be clean. You’re a little behind the times.

  110. 138

    Daddy Love spews:

    136 g

    You should read for comprehension.
    – 60 rocket attacks that killed no one v. attack helicopter guided missiles that kill over 300.
    – Oppressor v. oppressed.
    – Major military power v. small-city-sized area full of mostly unemployed refugees

    Little things like that make a difference.

  111. 139

    gstor spews:

    - 60 rocket attacks that killed no one v. attack helicopter guided missiles that kill over 300.

    And what were the casualties in the Russia/Georgia conflict, since you seem to be saying that this is a key measure of what makes a war crime?

  112. 140

    gstor spews:

    Little things like that make a difference.

    Oh, who else is calling the Israeli actions war crimes? Obama?

  113. 141

    Daddy Love spews:

    139 g
    I seem to be saying..?

    No, look up above and you’lll find that I state exactly what constitutes the specific war crimes to which I referred. Other war crimes are possible, but I made no reference to them.

    But because this issue seems to be your big hard-on, why don’t YOU investigate and tell us all what the casualty rates we in Russaia v. Georgia? I’m not your librarian.

  114. 143

    Daddy Love spews:

    g

    You are hanging back and fisking my statements lokking for something to attack. Why don’t you tell us all YOUR position?

    Cluck.

  115. 144

    gstor spews:

    But because this issue seems to be your big hard-on, why don’t YOU investigate and tell us all what the casualty rates we in Russaia v. Georgia? I’m not your librarian.

    For all you know Georgia suffered egregious civilian casualties as a result of the Russian occupation. ok, we’ll leave it at that – you have no idea, and for all you know the Georgian losses were far worse than the losses in Gaza.

  116. 145

    Daddy Love spews:

    BTW, I believe that Israel’s response is primarily a political ploy by the PM to appear “tough” because he is being chalenged by the Right in the next election.

  117. 146

    gstor spews:

    Nope.

    In fact, virtually nobody is making this claim – just Daddy, senior technical writer at Microsoft.

  118. 147

    Daddy Love spews:

    144

    I don’t know, this is true. But if you care, you could lift a fucking finger and look it up. But you don’t, so I guess you don’t care either.

  119. 149

    Daddy Love spews:

    146 g

    BTW, how many people is “virtually nobody” anyway? Do you mean, “lots of people whose opinions I discount because I don’t agree with them?”

  120. 150

    gstor spews:

    See, you CAN look things up when you care. I guess just not about Georgia.

    You make a lot of claims, Curtis, but you rarely do your homework.

  121. 152

    Right Stuff spews:

    NEWS FLASH *****The terrorist backed government of Mexico has begun firing rockets and mortars into the United States, targeting civilians *****NEWS FLASH”

    If civilians are dying because Hamas launches it’s attacks from neighborhoods etc, then that’s blood on the hands of Hamas. They hide behind the Palestian people and use them like shields…

    What if Mexico was doing what Hamas is doing? I would expect A MASSIVE AND OVERWHELMING RESPONSE if the Mexican army was lobbing rockets and mortars over the border into the United States.

    Israel left Gaza, dismantled their settlements there…How much clearer a signal do they have to send that they desire peace? The Palestinians are able to stop this right now…
    Keep Hamas or any other terrorist group from lobbing rockets and mortars into Israel from Gaza..

  122. 153

    Daddy Love spews:

    cnn.com:

    Israel allowed dozens of trucks carrying relief aid into Gaza on Monday, but the United Nations said the aid will not be enough to alleviate a worsening humanitarian situation as Israel’s military assault on Gaza enters its third day…Iyad Nasr, a spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross, said Israeli sanctions had left Gaza’s hospitals “almost incapable of functioning” even before the attacks, and those facilities are now “bleeding every resource available.”

    Isn’t that a war crime too? Back to the Conventions…

  123. 154

    Daddy Love spews:

    152 RS

    Is it Israel’s fault that the cease-fire ended December 19, or Hamas’ or both?

    If we had invaded and occupied Mexico like we did Iraq, do you think we would not come under attack?

    If Mexico were a tiny little community whose borders we routinely close, cutting off food and medical supplies and not allowing workers to reach their jobs to feed their families, do you think we’d have a lot of happy Mexicans or pissed-off Mexicans?

  124. 155

    Daddy Love spews:

    Yep, it’s a war crime:

    Article 2 states that signatories are bound by the convention both in war, armed conflicts where war has not been declared and in an occupation of another country’s territory.
    Article 3 states that even where there is not a conflict of international character the parties must as a minimum adhere to minimal protections described as: noncombatants, members of armed forces who have laid down their arms, and combatants who are hors de combat (out of the fight) due to wounds, detention, or any other cause shall in all circumstances be treated humanely

  125. 156

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    As always Daddy Love forget the historical significance.

    If Arafat wasn’t stuffing his pockets (read Swiss Bank Accounts) until his death in 2004, those funds would have been used as the foundation for better lifestyles today. Also who said anything about Mahmoud Abbas? You brought him up. I said there were other names mentioned. Why do you try and put your worthless thoughts into “my words”?

    Now when I prove there was AID money diverted to weapon purchases and terror, you skip over that Daddy Love. Why you do dat?

  126. 157

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    So Daddy Love if Fatah is discredited as you claim (where is the URL for that “whopper”), what happened to the over $6 MMM in aid to Hamas? Where did it go?

  127. 160

    Daddy Love spews:

    156 P

    Of course I broght up Abbas. Because he’s, you know, relevant. He is the current president of the PA, and he does not appear to have any connection to the misuse of funds (said YOUR guardian.co.uk article). So all of your ranting about this is outdated nonsense about a man long dead.

  128. 162

    headless lucy spews:

    Is Troll trying to prove that the U.S. commits war crimes, that Bush is a war criminal for killing 100,000 Iraqis for no reason, that Hamas commits war crimes, or that Israel does not commit war crimes?

    It seems that Troll has no moral compass at all. He’s just trying to be oppositional.

    I win!

  129. 163

    David spews:

    “If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters in Sderot, a small city on the edge of Gaza that has been hit repeatedly by rocket fire. “And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

    – Obama, July 2008

  130. 164

    Daddy Love spews:

    163 D

    Then again, David, according to Alberrt Einstein the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. These brutal Israeli reprisals, like ours in Iraq, wil only radicalize the Arabs and encourage further attacks.

  131. 165

    David spews:

    @ 164

    Obama supports the Israeli actions because he understands the terror being visited on Israeli communities. His words are very clear about this.

  132. 166

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    31. Tröl spews:
    @28
    Google Rachel Corrie. Then click images.

     
    daddylove knows who she is. He doesn’t want to admit the truth so he ignores.
     
    What do you expect from someone that changes his name to daddylove.
     
    Ask daddylove if he has ever heard of nambla.

  133. 167

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    63. Daddy Love spews:
    Niether FDR nor Truman were in charge of any occupation other than those of Germany and Japan after WWII.

     
    Okay. Since they ONLY occupied germany AND japan we won’t count them.
     
    If bombs never landed in israel again, do you believe israel would keep retaliating?

  134. 168

    Daddy Love spews:

    167 MS

    No, it’s not that “we won’t count them.” If you want to play the “what about FDR and Truman?” game, name the war crimes we committed during those occupations.

  135. 169

    Daddy Love spews:

    167 MS

    Israel keeps retaliating? Riiight…

    For the past year or so, following Hamas’s victory in the Gaza elections, Israel has sealed the border to Gaza, cutting off both humanitarian aid and commercial traffic. In June, a coalition of eight international non-profits “released a report proving that conditions in Gaza are now worse than at any point since 1967. As of that June, 80% of the residents were on food aid, more than 40% were unemployed, water and sewage systems were in collapse, and hospitals were suffering power shortages of up to 12 hours a day. The situation has only worsened. The U.N. Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA) has been unable to get needed medical supplies into Gaza for more than a year because of Israel’s blockade on border crossings.

    And just in case you are not aware, blockade is an act of war. So who is retaliating here?

  136. 170

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Daddy Love–
    What kind of sick bastard would make excuses for Hamas and the Palestinian enabling of their ongoing terrorism?
    Daddy Love is clearly an Anti-Semite.
    Obama will support Israel 100%.

    Arafat told us clearly he would win the war with Israel “on the wombs of our women”. And by golly, he tried. Nearly the highest birthrate in the world…nearly 7…mostly born into poverty AT ARAFAT’S URGING!

    It appears the only way this matter will be settled in Gaza is all-out war by Israel….sadly. Israel has been hamstrung by idiots like Daddy Love. They are tired of taking it. Let the “Hate America/Hate Israel KLOWNS like Daddy Love whine. If someone was lobbing mortars at him, no doubt he would be curled up in the corner sucking his thumb crying for help.
    There is a safety net being in Microsoft Redmond, isn’t there.

  137. 171

    Daddy Love spews:

    166 MS

    re: Rachel Corrie images

    He/she/it wanted me to find images of Rachel Corrie on some right-wing site alleging bad acts by her, which I would regard with the same skepticism and disbeleif that everyone should give a digital image these days, especially one found on Joe Blow’s website. Which is why I did not bother. A photograph is not a fact. I supplied some facts.

    And wow, big ups on being the first person to launch ad hominem attacks based on my name. Not. I guess when you got nothing…

  138. 172

    Daddy Love spews:

    170 nCyn

    Arafat’s been dead for years, and Fatah does not rule the PA. That dog won’t hunt, pal. Funny how you guys never even mention the real PA president.

    But I am not making excuses for Hamas. I am stating facts about Israel. Facts that in your blood lust you prefer to ignore.

    Your inability to handle the truth does not equal anti-Semitism on my part. At least if I were to accse you of being anti-Arab or anti-Muslim I would have your statements regarding your wish for Israel to kill eveyone in Gaza as support. What do you have?

  139. 173

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    77. rhp6033 spews:

    Daddy Love: My, your anti-semitism is just …. astonishing. I was just re-reading some of the early history of the Nazi party, and I find disturbing similarities between Goebbel’s rants and yours.

  140. 174

    Daddy Love spews:

    If someone were blockading my community, not allowing me to go to my work to feed my family, blocking needed medical supplies to reach my disabled wife, and resulting in unsafe water and sewage in my community, I’d probably fire the fucking rockets myself. And I would be justified by that act of war: the blockade.

  141. 175

    Daddy Love spews:

    cynical

    A quote please. From me.

    I am always surprised, but I guess I should not be, that a mere statement of fact such as that Israel commits an act of war by blockading or the war crime of collecive punishment, one is immediately accused of hating Jews. I don’t hate Jews, I oppose war criminals. Once upon a time I thought Israel did too, but not any more.

    And your accusations of anti-Semitism are merely an attemtp by you to achieve through ad hominem attack what you cannot through marshaling an argument.

  142. 176

    Daddy Love spews:

    Gee, I should have realized earlier how this issue fires up the conservative lizard brain. Fun with facts…

  143. 177

    rhp6033 spews:

    Cynical @ 173: Quite changing my quotes and then referencing me as the source. I did not make that comment with respect to Daddy Love. If you want to make a comment to him, do it in your own words. This example speaks volumes as to your lack of credibility, or whether the sources you site actually support your positions.

  144. 178

    Daddy Love spews:

    rhp

    They have no affirmative argument to make, so they instead try to discredit me by whatever smear they can manufacture. They’re Republicans, after all.

  145. 180

    Daddy Love spews:

    Aw, you guys are too easy with your retreat to “anti-Semitism” in place of a point of view tht you can support in law or with some other objective fact.

    Heck, Cynical, you weren’t even the first in the thread to accuse me. Copycat.

  146. 182

    David spews:

    Gee, I should have realized earlier how this issue fires up the conservative lizard brain. Fun with facts…

    ———-

    The Conservative lizard brain?

    Again, these are Obama’s words:

    If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters in Sderot, a small city on the edge of Gaza that has been hit repeatedly by rocket fire. “And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.

    Hamas is a terrorist organization, responsible for the deaths of many innocents, and dedicated to Israel’s destruction, as evidenced by their bombarding of Sderot in recent months. I support requiring Hamas to meet the international community’s conditions of recognizing Israel, renouncing violence, and abiding by past agreements before they are treated as a legitimate actor.”

    After the recent barrage of Hamas’ rockets against Israeli communities Obama’s anger must be greater than ever. Obama is providing the leadership in this moment of crisis.

  147. 183

    spews:

    Daddy Love, when people like you and Rachel Corrie remain silent when terrorism is perpetrated against Israel, and only speak out when the Jewish state retaliates, then yes, I think it’s fair assume you have some anti-semitism buried within you.

  148. 184

    David spews:

    Daddy Love, when people like you and Rachel Corrie remain silent when terrorism is perpetrated against Israel

    Even more . . . Hamas purposely placed its rockets in civilian locations and ignored repeated Israeli warnings to stop the attacks. They invited the attacks for the PR value of dead civilians and destroyed homes, using their people as pawns in a deadly game. If there are war crimes to be found, maybe they are here.

    No nation would have ignored these attacks, and it’s sheer lunacy to argue Israel should have turned the other cheek.

    Regarding Daddy Love, when the rocket attacks were taking place he was silent, as were many others. Hamas played him like a fiddle.

    Obama has it right.

  149. 187

    spews:

    I equate people like Daddy Love, to white racists who remain silent when black women are raped or murdered, and who only express outrage when white women are raped and murdered.

    Like the racist, Daddy Love may not even know he’s an anti-semite. He may even deny it. But the very fact that time after time he only speaks out against the actions of Israel, but remains silent when Israel is the victim of terrorism, is all the proof I need as to what’s in his heart.

  150. 188

    Daddy Love spews:

    187 T

    same old crap, eh?

    Some day you’ll make a case for what you think. Or should I not hold my “anti-Semitic” breath?

    My real opinion is that you will NEVER make a case for what you believe and will instead ALWAYS opt for ad hominem attack to disguise your utter lack of original thought.

  151. 189

    spews:

    @188

    It’s put up or shut up time.

    Show me some past comments of yours where you have expressed outrage over Hamas’ rocketing of Israel.

  152. 190

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    “The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not”. – Thomas Jefferson

    A man before his time.

  153. 191

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them”. – Thomas Jefferson

    A man before his time.

  154. 192

    manoftruth spews:

    what did they call the people during the 1930’s and 40’s who blew up british installations to force the worlds hand in creating an israeli state?

  155. 193

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    There are some interesting ironies in the Middle East. There have been Israeli Arabs in the Kennesset, Bedouins serving in the IDF, and in some cases, it has begun to go both ways. Bahrain does not recognize Israel, but has a small Jewish Community, and one of the members of that community is Bahrain’s Ambassador to the US.

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/S.....2FShowFull

  156. 194

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Israel’s Foreign Minister, the way she sounds, might have been the second coming of Golda Meir. Although Israel got pushed back early on in 1973’s Yom Kippur War, but as reserves were mobilized, they pushed the Egyptians back. Israeli troops were on the West Side of the Suez Canal with the bulk of the Egyptian Army trapped on the Sinai. It probably is why Sadat accepted Begin’s offer for a visit a few years later.

    Some interesting news, meanwhile, from the nation formerly known as East Pakistan. Both major party leaders in Bangladesh are women.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7804040.stm

    Egypt also has a major economic threat happening, and it is not from Israel. The Piracy Problem in Somalia is already seeing some ships add the journey around the Cape of Good Hope, a 2 week journey, than risk being seized by pirates off the Somali Coast en-route to the Red Sea and the Suez Canal.

  157. 195

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Also, the original football focus of the thread, yesterday was the NFL’s Black Monday, where the End of Season Firings commence. The head coaches of the Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns, and New York Jets were the first to be fired. Might be more. As for Holmgren, he already quit. Wonder if Mike Singletary has a job next season?

  158. 197

    Rick D. spews:

    10. Lee spews:
    Where’s the outrage when Israel sets up the blockades and military operations that caused the rocket attacks from Hamas?

    How terrible of Israel to set up blockades so that a palestinian suicide bomber can’t enter into their country and detonate a bomb on a bus or pizzeria killing their children. What is Israel thinking anyway?

    Lee, in the usual naive liberal way, is the greatest friend a terrorist ever had. Self-hating Jews are pathetic.

  159. 199

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Daddy Love-
    No comment from you on the FACT that Arafat proclaimed they would destroy Israel on the wombs of their women??
    Average Birth Rate near 7…born into poverty.
    Purposely done to breed terrorists.
    And Daddy Love, Hamas’ USEFUL IDIOT, hates Israel so much and is so anti-sematic that he gleefully spews Hamas’ Propaganda under the cover of ‘just presenting facts about Israel” with NO Context of what Hamas/Palestinians are up to.
    Loser.
    Anti-Semite.
    That’s our Micro-Dot Head Daddy Love.

    Good little Atheist DL.

  160. 201

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    slingshot-
    Of course I care about Israel & Jews.
    What do you know MicroDot Head.
    It’s anti-Semites like you & Daddy Love that ignore the truth on the ground.

    Hamas, whose charter specifically calls for the destruction of the state of Israel, is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States, Canada, Japan, Australia, the United Kingdon and the European Union and is banned in Jordan.

    From 2000 to 2004, Hamas was responsible for killing nearly 400 Israelis and wounding more than 2,000 in 425 attacks, according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

    From 2001 through May 2008, Hamas launched more than 3,000 Qassam rockets and 2,500 mortar attacks against Israeli targets.

  161. 202

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    The pro-Hamas, pro-Palestine, Hate Israel bowel movement is merely part of the Atheist Progressive movement that dominates this Blog.

    Work in dangerous conditions like MicroSoft-Redmond and launch anti-Israel garbage.
    KLOWNS!

  162. 203

    rhp6033 spews:

    Cynical @ 202: Gee, didn’t one of your compatriots on this board claim to work for Microsoft?

    As for myself, I’m hardly an athiest (I’m an Evangelical Protestant), nor am I hater of Israel, pro-Hamas, or pro-Palestine.

    I DO support reasoned attempts to use intelligence to diffuse a conflict which has been around for the past sixty + years, and which no amount of deaths on either side seems to have resolved much in either direction.

  163. 204

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    203. rhp6033 spews:

    I DO support reasoned attempts to use intelligence to diffuse a conflict which has been around for the past sixty + years, and which no amount of deaths on either side seems to have resolved much in either direction.

    Sounds good rhp…don’t you think this has been done the past 60 years?
    How do you reason with terrorists (Hamas) who have at the heart of their mission the destruction of Israel and make no bones about it??
    Who are you going to talk to???
    I believe Hamas think Obama is a Pacifist who they can manipulate.
    This will be one of many tests for Obama.
    Hamas understands one thing…a powerful response…not idle talk.

  164. 205

    gstor spews:

    What do you know MicroDot Head?

    —————–

    That his mouth often races ahead of his brain . . . no contest most days . . . as when he proclaimed all Republicans war criminals, hence besmirching many of his co-workers, bosses and Microsoft itself with the crime. Of course, none of this prevented him from staying on and continuing to receive those healthy Microsoft paychecks.

  165. 206

    headless lucy spews:

    re 191: Your quote is out of context. He was talking about wasteful defense spending.

    Reagan’s ‘Star Wars’ would be a good example of that form of waste.

  166. 207

    EvergreenRailfan spews:

    Now the situation in Gaza is not the only thing giving diplomats a hard time. The Somalia Piracy situation. The number of nations sending warships to the region is growing. The EU has a small flotilla including Danish and German ships, Indian Warships are in the region(not sure if their aircraft carrier Viraat is in the region, would be an asset), Japan is looking into sending warships(Constitutional Questions might restrict their Rules of Engagement to protecting only Japanese Merchant Ships, as the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force is supposed to be only for Self Defense, but their warships are stealthy, with the Kongos based on our Arleigh Burke class DDG), and now China has 2 warships and a support ship en-route to the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean, their first such deployment in 500 years!

  167. 208

    Puddybud, Very Sad Today... spews:

    headless@206, wrong as ever.

    As I remember people claimed the human DNA is an impenetrable mystery. Many of today’s conveniences are from military research. I realize this is above your “pay grade”. I realize Popular Science, Technology Review or Gizmodo are too involved for your small librul mind!