The headline in today’s Daytona Beach News-Journal says all you need to know about International Speedway Corp.’s attitude towards local government: “ISC gives Washington officials green flag on track taxes.”
“Yee-hah!” our state legislators must be exclaiming, “ISC has given us the green flag to give them money!” And talk about a major concession:
Daytona Beach–based International Speedway Corp. has agreed to let local officials in Washington State have more of a say in how tax revenue from a proposed racetrack in Bremerton, Wash., would be divided.
Wow. ISC is willing to let local officials have a say in how to spend their tax revenue. How can the Legislature possibly say no to a deal like that?
The latest iteration of the bill would provide at least $164 million of public financing to build a NASCAR track near Bremerton, while exempting from property taxes only 750 of the site’s 950 acres. ISC claims sales taxes would mostly be levied on out-of-state fans, and that economic and development benefits would lead to lower property taxes on area residents… but local officials dispute these claims. And in fact, most of the these new, so-called concessions merely represent a willingness to negotiate some of the final terms with local officials, rather than having them mandated in the legislation.
Whatever. ISC can issue all the press releases it wants, but the fact remains that we’re talking about giving a huge public subsidy to an extremely profitable out-of-state corporation that wants WA to build it a new track in a relatively remote location, that would require many millions more in transportation improvements on top of the millions being sucked out of state and local coffers. To hear ISC spin it, they’re doing charity work here, and all they want from us is a matching grant. If we want a NASCAR event in Washington state — and all the prestige and tourism that supposedly comes with it — well, this is the only way they can financially swing it. Take it or leave it, Washington state.
Yeah… um… except, that’s a load of bull.
This isn’t about bringing NASCAR to Washington state, this is about crafting a sweetheart deal for ISC and the family that controls it. For if they really wanted to bring NASCAR to Washington, there is better alternative, near the heart of our state’s population center, that would require little if any public subsidy: Pacific Raceways, near Kent.
Pacific Raceways is located on a 330 acre site just outside of Kent, a quarter mile off Highway 18, with its own dedicated off ramp. Just 20 miles from both Seattle and Tacoma, there are plenty of hotel rooms in the region, and no major transportation improvements would be needed. The site is already zoned, and has been operating as a racetrack since 1960. And perhaps best of all, the local owners have plans to privately finance a $135 million upgrade and expansion that would be capable of attracting NASCAR, IRL and CART racing events.
So why would NASCAR lobby for a new $344 million facility in Bremerton, when they could be running events at a more conveniently located racetrack in Kent? Because the France family, which controls NASCAR, also controls ISC, which is in the business of building and operating racetracks. The Bremerton facility, with its huge public subsidy, represents a financial windfall for the France family, whereas a NASCAR event at Pacific Raceways, well… that would only bring in revenues from a NASCAR event — revenue they would have to share with the owners of Pacific Raceways.
The Bremerton proposal is not about bringing NASCAR to Washington state — it is about the France family leveraging its control of NASCAR to grab $164 million in direct public subsidies for ISC, plus additional tax breaks. If NASCAR really only wanted to expand its market by bringing high profile events to Washington, it has a willing and eager partner at Pacific Raceways, a facility that would require little or no public subsidy… and no legislative action. NASCAR already runs races on road courses like Watkins Glen and Infineon — nothing is stopping them from running major events at an upgraded Pacific Raceways in Kent.
Nothing, that is, except greed.
We have repeatedly been told that only a brand new, taxpayer subsidized racetrack will do, but that simply is not true. Racing enamored legislators would be wise to buckle up and strap on their helmets before letting ISC/NASCAR take them for a ride.
“strap on their helmuts ” ??
Is that something the French do in their bedrooms or was that a play on words to get the Germans somehow involved ? You mention the French so many times (dang foreign capitalist, too sissy to fight a war, but certainly eager to screw Bremerton) that I wasn’t sure.
dutch @1,
Yeah… yeah. I was still proofing the live post.
(Oh, and just to be clear for those who may be confused, the name of the family is “French”. I’m not actually implying that they are from France.)
Yet another example of business soaking the public for funds. If they’re so hot-to-trot to have a NASCAR-quality facility in Wasington, get a bunch of investors on board to finance the project. After all, isn’t that what venture capitalists do?
You can’t have capitalism for the small business person yet socialism for the big business outfits. It’s not supposed to work that way.
Libertarian is right on this one.
If the “Go fast, turn left” morons want a racetrack then build one with your own money.
Oh, yeah, Republicans; do your patriotic duty and vote Libertarian in 2008!
Gee, thanks for the support in 2008, GSB!
Goldy:
I was doing a bit of reading (a fluff piece CBS News did on the matter) and found that the family name is “France”. Several other sources confirm this.
And while the fluff pieces tend to wax on endlessly about how wonderful the France family is, and how much they bring to NASCAR, one thing is clear in all of them.
The France family owns NASCAR. What they say, goes.
So NASCAR lied? They’re just imitating our AG.
Maybe NASCAR will later say they were going to be “more precise.”
http://seattletimes.nwsource.c.....eys27.html
John @7,
Thanks. I had written the name of the family from memory, and then quickly googled it and found all these references to the “French family” owning NASCAR.
I guess I need to hire a fact checker and proof reader.
Glad to help, Goldy.
The very thought of 100,000 NASCAR fans trying to work their way through Gorst is enough to give me nightmares.
I get traffic backups from my office to the Narrows Bridge already. I expect that the backup from Gorst would reach here as well.
“Purdy, where the traffic jams meet!” No, somehow that just doesn’t do it for me.
you know it’s a tax credit right? It’s the tax dollars of race fans that are going to be used to pay off the bond WITHOUT raising anyone’s taxes. Most state officials and electeds have to admit that this proposal for ISC/NASCAR in Kitsap County will generate net revenue for ALL of the local governments and the state general fund even while they use a portion on the bond.
Check out the Kitsap Sun blog to find out more, there is lots that has been said and (my apologies) has better coverage of the issue. Sorry, but it’s in their backyard.
Libertarian @ 6:
My pleasure. I think it’s high time for a new political party with national influence to replace the Republican Party.
The Republican Party has run it’s course in American politics and it either has to change from the inside or be replaced.
As it stands now, the electorate will “replace” them in 2008 & 2010 because of the gross incompetence all Republican leaders have shown over the last 6 years.
It’s no skin off of my nose, but I’m smart enough to realize that we need a political counter-balance in our system of government to be the most efficient at governing.
The Libertarian Party is at a historical crossroad. They can either rise to power or continue to flounder in mediocrity. What are you personally doing each and every day to raise up the Libertarian Party to national prominence?
Bellyaching on a blog, or being active. As Thom Hartman says: Get active!
As the leader of Young Democrats of Kitsap County I’ve been fighting NASCAR and their right-wing Pals like Lois McMahan and Ron Bohme for several years now. I was at the Senate hearing yesterday and have not missed a hearing yet. I’ve testified at the first senate hearing and have been actively lobbying against this stupid greed filled monstrosity. I am cautiously optimistic since it does not look like the bills are going to make it to the floor of either chamber of the legislature. You would not believe how many legislators from Snohomish County and South King County want to force this on Kitsap against our wishes. There is not one legislator from Kitsap that wants this horrible waste of our money.
Goldie. Coby Eklund is completely full of it. And by “It” I mean Lois McMahan’s NASCAR flavored Kool-aid.
Coby @11,
Um… if what you are saying is true — that the tax falls solely on the fans — then a tax is entirely unnecessary. ISC can simply up the ticket and concession prices to cover the extra $164 million. Problem solved.
GSB,
Yeah, I bellyache some. My usual support for Libertarian Party is financial. I’m not keen on entering politics myself.
One of the guys I was in the AF with is an elected (Republican) offical down here in Pierce Co. He’s as unctuous as they come!
I’m kinda glad to see the Republicans getting the Sierra kicked out of them. Bush shoulda wrapped this mess up years ago. Now it’s the un-doing of his party for the next decade or so.
Memo to my legislators: I’m sick and tired of being forced to pay welfare to sports barons. Any questions?
GBS@12
I would think that as the Republican party faces schism between the extreme right wing and the tradional moderates, the Libertarians have an excellent chance to capture many of the latter. A viable third party would benefit the whole system. Some conservative dems wold also likely join. Perhaps the Liberts can get it together on this one.
Coby:
Being over here myself, I will tell you that the feelings are mixed (at best) for the racetrack.
Who will be paying for the extra road and infrastructure capacity? How much of that revenue stream is actually new revenue, compared to revenue that is simply diverted from other areas?
Much of the traffic planning for this includes widening highway 16 to six lanes, and somehow finding a solution to the traffic mess in Gorst that has eluded traffic planners for the last thirty years. We have a hard time getting funding for our current traffic issues.
The folks that are actually going to have to find solutions to those problems (and the funding to pay for those solutions) are far less enamoured of a NASCAR track in Bremerton than the race fans are.
Additionally, the folks that live in the areas immediately surrounding the proposed track are often less than thrilled with the idea.
Most of the folks really pushing this idea are race fans that really want a track up here in the Northwest. Nothing wrong with that, any more than a Sonics fan being in favor of a new basketball arena.
But I will have to see some hard answers to the problems and costs facing a new facility before I can support it. So far, all I’ve seen looks like smoke and mirrors.
Ugh…pardon the mishpellings above…..
NASCAR IS CONTROLLED BY FRANCE!!!!
I LOVE THE IRONY!!!
NOW WHERE’S O’REILLY WHEN YOU NEED HIM?
Swift Boat Liar Admits Kerry Is “War Hero”
“Sam Fox, of St. Louis, was nominated by George W. Bush in January to be the new U.S. Ambassador to Belgium.
“… Fox is … a big-time Sugar Daddy for the GOP … [whose contributions include] donating $50,000 to the Swift Boat Liars …. So it created substantial drama a month ago when Fox appeared before the Foreign Relations Committee for his nomination hearing ….
“The most nauseating part of the hearing came when … Fox had the nerve to say these words: ‘Senator Kerry, I very much respect your dedicated service to this country. I know that you were not drafted — you volunteered. You went to Vietnam. You were wounded. Highly decorated. Senator, you’re a hero.'”
http://tinyurl.com/2mvxfu
Roger Rabbit Commentary: I don’t agree with columnist Bob Geiger that Mr. Fox’s Senate testimony was “nauseating.” On the contrary, we should be glad Mr. Fox, for once, told the truth (probably the first time in his life). And, Democrats should be glad to hear a Swift Boat Liar admit that Kerry was a war hero, because it kicks another leg off the stool holding up the GOP’s lies. This is a Swift Boat Liar calling the Swift Boat Liars liars, folks.
That’s pretty significant. It’s somewhat like Ted Bundy confessing that, yeah, he did commit some murders. At the time Bundy confessed, he didn’t seem very remorseful, but nevertheless it was nice to hear him admit it. On his way to the electric chair.
Even though I’m a huge auto racing fan (but not particularly fond of oval-track racing), I really don’t like the idea of subsidies for sports complexes, whether it is for ball-type sports or wheel-type sports. They are all, as has been pointed out, hugely profitable and should be able to stand on their own.
As to Pacific Raceways, I notice that their plan for a super-speedway sits right on top of the road course. Hmmm. And anyone who has been out there knows that the backside of the track has an elevation drop of over 100 feet! I’m wondering how they plan on putting a tri-oval in that space. They’d have to dredge Puget Sound to come up with enough fill dirt to do that.
The current road course and it’s limited facilites are not up to NASCAR standards (or CART, IRL, Grand-Am or any other professional racing organization, for that matter). I understand the long-term plans are to bring it back up to those standards, but that’s going to take a long time.
I hope some of the rich Microsofties (and Bruce McCaw and others) who have gotten into vintage racing are looking at the possible loss of a great road course.
11, 15 Funny how ticket and popcorn sales can’t support the track, but sales taxes on tickets and popcorn can.
5, 12 Republicans evolved from Lincoln to George W. Bush. Democrats evolved from bedsheet-clad nightriders to Barack Obama. Funny how these things work.
Coby spews at @11:
Then explain for me the benefit to the good taxpayers of Kitsap County from the disappearance of property tax payments on 750 prime acres. That’s almost 1.2 square miles that ISC would get to use without paying a dime for the privilege, without benefiting their neighbors at all. What possible justification can there be for exempting even a square inch of this private corporation’s land from property tax?
As for Kitsap County electeds, I’ll start thinking positively about this extortion scheme when Senator Derek Kilmer signs on. I’m not holding my breath in anticipation.
Pale Rider,
Pacific Raceways is goin gto dig a big friggin hole and go DOWN…..not fill.
Thay are going to sell what they dig up (gravel) to help finance the mod.
Goldy, Pacific Raceways has nowhere near the property to do a big oval. They will never be able to take away one of the road course events (Watkins, Sears Pt) away.
I do not support government financing for any sports franchise, BTW. If it’s such a good business seal then people should be lining up to invest. It is nothing but a way of getting my tax money to pay for something that generates revenue for the government to have another slush fund.
Libertarian @ 16:
I’m not interested in running for office either, and for the third time this is NOT my point to you.
My point is it’s easy to write a check and think you’ve actually done something constructive.
What I’m saying is have you actively gone out and recruited people to your party? Have you worked phone banks to raise awareness for your party? Have you gone out in public to try and capture peoples interest in your party?
If not, why NOT?
Sittin’ on your ass blogging and tossing a check in the mail is going to keep the Libertarian Party exactly where it is today — insignificant.
If you’re satisfied with that, then you’re doing exactly the right thing.
BUT, since you posted that Republicans should vote Libertarian, you obviously want the Libertarian Party to have influence in shaping national policies. Yes?
So which is it, Libertarian; do you want Republicans to vote Libertarian in 2008, or do you WISH they’d vote Libertarian in 2008.
My dad used to tell me “Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see what you get first.”
Right now, you’re shitting in your hands.
Get ACTIVE. NOW!
Not tomorrow.
Pale Rider @23, Drool @27,
Yes, Pacific Raceways plans to dig, and that is indeed a significant part of their financing plan. They apparently sit atop a substantial gravel reserve. (Who knew gravel was such a valuable commodity?)
As for taking away a road course event, I don’t know enough about the sport to comment one way or the other. All I’m saying is that if NASCAR really wants to expand into this market, it’s not the want of $164 million in taxpayer subsidies that’s stopping them.
Moronic leftists.
Prove you’re serious about this issue and demand removal of Boeings tax breaks.
I’m sure Boeing would be happy to relocate their jobs elsewhere.
NO TAX BREAKS!!! NO BUSINESS REVENUE!!! SOCIAL JUSTICE!!
Morons.
TYPICALNAZI SUPPORTS AN OUTFIT CONTROLLED BY FRANCE!!!
LMAO!!!
TL @ 30:
When NASCAR creates the high paying union jobs like Boeing, then we’ll talk. A couple of races a year for popcorn and beer vendors — C’mon, nice try but you still get an “F”.
Ah, Mr. Lefty
Let’s see. Boeing brings over 60,000 well paid full-time jobs into the region.
NASCAR would bring in about 1,000 low-paid and part time jobs into the region.
Boeing brings in the majority of its revenue from out of state.
NASCAR would be a primarily regional facility.
Oh, wait. I see the problem. Most Boeing employees are members of a union, and tend to vote Democrat. Get rid of Boeing and a number of well-paid union jobs leave with it.
After all, who cares if the state loses billions of dollars in revenue and 60,000 well-paid jobs? The Republicans would much prefer to be in control of a state with a dwindling tax base, massive poverty and no industry than to have Democrats in charge with a booming economy, decent employment and lots of industry.
As long as it has a NASCAR track.
YOS LIB BRO:
Hey, I just read the heated exchange between you and Puddybud on the 3/24 OPEN THREAD.
I laughed my ass off at the “lily white boy!” remark Puddybud made. Oh, man that made me burst out laughing. Especially considering he wouldn’t type house nigger at post 185, but lambasted HL at 196 with the lily white boy comment.
Ahhhhh, racism makes me laugh; lily white boy, house nigger, indeed. Hey, should I change my screen name to LWB/GBS? Yeah, that’s me.
Hey, Puddybud, if I change my screen name to LWB/GBS will you change yours to HN/Puddubyd?
In honor of destroying racism and taking away its negative meaning I’m changing my screen name from GBS to LWB/GBS.
LWB stands for lily whtie boy.
Thanks, Puddybud. Yo da’ man! Or, should I say HN/Puddybud?
Sorry, so incentive of me at 35.
Puddybud you also refained from typing field nigger. I didn’t consider you might want to use FN/Puddybud.
Which is your preferenc? HN or FN?
John @ 33
Why are the machinist’s union “FOR” the nascar track. They know it will supply hundreds of “high paying union jobs” during the construction phase?
KOMO had a story on it last night. Of course we aren’t talking Seattle “Boeing”. But it is jobs…..
Typical (non)Lefty @ 30:
Boeing’s tax breaks allow airplanes to be built here. This brings in piles and piles of money from points elsewhere (Japan, China, Europe, elsewhere in the US and Canada, etc. etc.) in to the Puget Sound region.
While I’m not thrilled about how much money we have to shell out so that Boeing doesn’t build airplanes in Los Angeles, Kentucky, or Kansas, the effect on the local economy if those jobs and that money went elsewhere would be dramatic.
How much new money will a NASCAR oval bring in? How many hardcore fans follow the circuit around the country and book hotel rooms, buy restaurant meals, and all that happy jazz? I would be interested in seeing that number if anyone can find it.
Most sports money is churn. If it doesn’t go to NASCAR, it goes to football. If not there, then to baseball, or concerts, or what have you. Money doesn’t come in to the local economy in the standard sense. It just moves around, except for what the non-local owners take out.
Is it worth $164 million to book a few extra hotel rooms? I have my doubts.
29: Gravel a valuable commodity.
Goldy, actually it is for a variety of reasons and in my opinion a big scam, but all legal.
1. You have a gravel pit. You did and sell the gravel…you make money.
2. You have a gravel pit, that is an asset like real estate or factory…you can deduct the depreciation of the value (as you sell gravel and have less of it..)…you make money by tax write offs.
3. You get state money to re-establish the environment or..if you you are too far away from anything reasonable, you lease it out for garbage dumps or other “fills”…you make money again.
There is not a single gravel pit owner not being a multi millionaire. It’s quite a profitable business.
Kiroking:
Lots of folks are for a NASCAR track, and lots of folks are against it. The question I was answering had to do with the comparison of tax incentives for Boeing, versus the tax incentives for NASCAR, and my contention that the Boeing incentives are a productive use of that money, while the case for the NASCAR track is shaky at best.
When someone shows me who will be paying for:
1) expanding highway 16, fixing the traffic mess in Gorst,
2) additional infrastructure in the area of the track,
3) extra police, fire and medical services needed with 100,000 fans coming from surrounding counties and occasionally other states
Then we can start to talk about whether a huge tax incentive makes fiscal sense in this case. I have my doubts, but I’ll be happy to reconsider my opinion. I’ll be looking for some long term permanent jobs with decent wages and enough new revenue to at least balance out the subsidy.
I’ve read the information in the current report, and along with a demand for a huge pile of money, they seem to forget about these extra costs, which could easily total more than the subsidy. I have serious questions about the revenue projections as well. “Smoke and mirrors” is the term that comes immediately to mind.
It’s called “fiscal responsibility”. Go find a Republican Party Platform from thirty years ago (pre-“voodoo economics”) and read up on it.
Wooo Hooo1 Goldy, you sound like a ‘Republican’! You make so much sense with your post!!! Oops1 Maybe common sense is part of all of us!
nascar kicks ass, i love it
So all you nutroots want agree that giving HUGE tax breaks to GIANT corporations is a good thing since they provide jobs?
I’m glad to see that “corporate welfare” complaints are gone from the lib platform.
You sound like greedy capitalists.
Hypocrites. :D
BTW DOS YOG GAL, try learning english. Carrying the surname “France” does not make one French.
Tough concept, but you’ll catch on if you put some effort into it.
Gee, Mr. Lefty. Sorry I’m not ideologically pure enough for you. It’s one of those “balance” things, where we look at the costs and look at the benefits and decide if it makes sense.
If it does, then we swallow our burning desire to destroy capitalism in our lifetimes and decide that producing goods and services while providing good jobs will just have to come first.
Republicans used to understand this stuff, but you went off and got purified. You folks ran off all those evil “RINOs” that thought that having a booming economy, with lots of good jobs was more important than nosing into people’s private lives. All those RINOs that kept saying unpleasant things like “you can’t cut taxes and increase spending at the same time”.
Those folks came over to the Democratic Party, and we actually listened to them. A lot of what they said made sense. You remember all those folks that used to talk about not spending our grandchildren’s tax dollars? Ever wonder where they went? They’re Democrats now!
So, enjoy your ideological purity. It did wonders for the Whigs, and it will do the same for you. For myself, I’ll just have to settle for a booming economy, a balanced budget, and the knowledge that my grandchildren won’t be paying for my mistakes.
It may not be purely liberal, but it will do.
Carrying the surname “France” does not make one French.
LMAO!!!
Great work on this, Goldy.
This kind of reporting is what makes this site stand out. Bravo.
Also,
theres a reason why proceeds from user fees (ticket sales, parking, concessions, etc.) can’t be used to pay debt service on this kind of project.
The private developers usually want to qualify for tax free public bonds for a portion of the project. But IRS rules require that the vast majority of debt service come from public funds to qualify. I think it’s 90%. Anyway, the IRS figures that the market sets the price of things like tickets, parking, beer, etc. and that the private owners are going to charge the max no matter what. So any fees attached to such sales that are earmarked for paying the debt service would disqualify tax free bonding.
So if ISC is seeking to use tax free bonds for any portion of this project then that kind of puts the lie to any claims that these tax credits would somehow only apply to users of the facility. IRS won’t allow it.
Goldy #15
You can’t “just raise prices” to pay for the construction. You know what happens when you raise prices right? Some people stop buying. This fits in with the existing tax structure and they need the money to build infrastructure. Isn’t that what the government should be doing? Of course it is, but they haven’t the funds to built sewer and water and roads. The money that will be spent at the track will be more than enough to pay the bond back.
ISC/NASCAR needs to be able to operate at a profit if they expect to be able to operate and maintain that facility. It is interesting point that sales of popcorn and souvenirs can pay for the construction and the actual products can’t. It should tell you something about taxes.
John Barelli #19
Your comment is well thought out and organized and I appreciate your civility. Thank you.
I do think that infrastructure needs to be improved in Kitsap. I’ve lived on the Peninsula almost all of my life and still have family there and go there quite a bit. They need to improve the Highway through Gorst already. I think all of Kitsap County is in agreement on that fact.
I think most of them would like to see Gorst redeveloped also, what better to prime the pump than this proposal from ISC/NASCAR.
N of Seattle #26
The property currently receives a significant tax break, county officials and Josh Brown(D) estimate that break is worth $7-15 million over nine years.
ISC/NASCAR will make arrangements with the local taxing authority for leasehold excise taxes to be paid so that the business can budget easier and still pay for the emergency services that it would use. There is more info at the Kitsap Sun blog here.
John Barelli #33
NASCAR is projecting to bring in 60% of it’s 85,000 fans from out of state.
Please check the Kitsap Sun blog and the Race2WA websites they are very informative. And you can see more comments like this from Jacob Metcalf.
Chiming in from Nevada;
Screw NASCAR and the France family. I prefer racing that requires more brain function than simply turning left.
And as for the whole gravel pit thing, maybe this is like the story about the pitcher for the Dodgers (don’t remember his name) who bought a ‘useless’ piece of property from a relative for $50,000, only to discover that the property sat upon a prime deposit of paving stone, or something like that, worth an estimated $2.5 billion. Somehow, it just wouldn’t surprise me that someone eventually decides that the track is worth more for what it sits upon than what it’s provided for racing fans in the Northwest.