My, what a difference a year makes

According to Publicola, Gov. Chris Gregoire told a Seattle audience last night that she would not accept an all-cuts budget in 2010… a 180-degree turnaround from her position heading into the difficult 2009 legislative session. What’s changed her mind?

Well, obviously, the $2.6 billion projected revenue shortfall is nearly impossible to fill in one year with less than $10 billion of discretionary spending on the chopping block, so as I wrote yesterday, some mix of cuts and revenue increases is the obvious and responsible approach to the crisis. But in another sense, nothing’s changed.

The economy was nearly as bad this time last year, and getting worse, and nearly everybody who studied the numbers understood that additional cuts would likely be needed in 2010 as revenues continued to fall. Had the governor and legislature taken a more balanced approach at that time, both the cuts and the tax increases, spread out over a full two years, could have been less severe and less disruptive.

I’m loathe to kick a gift horse in the mouth now that the governor is finally on board, but there was a failure of leadership last year — particularly from Speaker Frank Chopp and the governor — to do the right thing regardless of how unpopular it might have been with the editorial boards… and regardless of what campaign promises might have been made before anybody realized how deep the coming recession would be. Here’s hoping the Democratic leadership is willing to make up for last year’s lapse, not merely by considering some targeted tax hikes, but by allowing proponents to conduct a real debate about the merits of a high-earners income tax.

Comments

  1. 1

    Tyler spews:

    What’s most bizarre is that a tax increase in the session earlier this year probably would not have been as political harmful because of the length until the next elections. A tax increase this session would come only six months before 3/4 of the members are up for re-election. Strange logic.

  2. 2

    Michael spews:

    there was a failure of leadership last year — particularly from Speaker Frank Chopp and the governor — to do the right thing regardless of how unpopular it might have been

    There’s been a failure in leadership in Olympia (and else where) for the last few years.

    I’d add Lisa Brown to the leadership failure list.

  3. 4

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Goldy–
    Where we would be had Gregoire made just the necessary cuts in the Budget FOUR years ago??
    Nothing was done.
    The Unions are in control…not the electeds.
    All we saw were petty Budget games and shifts.
    Nothing SUNSTANTIVE as Gary Locke’s former Budget Director repeatedly pointed out.

    The Chickens have come home to roost.
    The Property Tax Bills for 2010 are set to be mailed on February 14th.
    Last minute tax increases with almost no time to study the impact on the economy & jobs is irresponsible.

    Make the cuts.
    Go thru all the so-called “untouchable” stuff you claim Goldy.
    Get aggressive.
    It’s not like you to merely accept on face value that 70% of the Budget is untouchable…oh yeah, that’s the Gregoire?Democrat talking point.
    It doesn’t have to be true.

    Hey, Ask Gregoire to explain the TOTAL COMPENSATION (Wages, Benefits & Paid Time-off) on her own staff.
    She quintupled the # of $100k+ salary only! staffers over Gary Locke.

    Peel the Onion Goldy.
    You know it’s gonna stink bad.

  4. 5

    Faceless Bureaucrat spews:

    As someone who works in the budget office of a state agency (am off work today), I would take a more subtle view. Yes, the Democrats waited too long to deal with the need to boost revenues. At the same time, the governor also waited too long to start pulling back the reins on spending.

    In addition — this has gone under-reported — the governor’s efforts at agency reorganization have been poorly thought out. All too often she has caused chaos rather than solved problems. Her sense of hubris soars much higher than her managerial savvy.

    Meanwhile, this fall legislative leaders lambasted department heads who took the initiative to prune spending rather than waiting for the 2010 session. That’s good management in action, because it is a lot easier to cut gradually than with a big meat axe at the end of a fiscal year or biennium. Yet legislative egos got in the way — THEY wanted to make the cuts. Great. So do it. But know that you are making your job that much harder.

    Thus far no one deserves an award for their response to this Great Recession.

  5. 6

    Jacob spews:

    I am sure the GOP is pretty excited to hear the Dems are so excited about raising taxes…As Dino used to say, they are certainly going to raise taxes, but the only question is which ones and how high.

    Goldy, 2010 is going to be SOOOO painful for you!

  6. 7

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Start the Budget process with 10% across the Board Salary Cuts and 20% Benefit Cuts.
    Also eliminate some of the 18% Paid Time-off.
    It’s ridiculous.
    Then see where you are at.

  7. 8

    lauramae spews:

    I think the house handled last year VERY BADLY. It didn’t seem to me that they did much beyond waiting for economic forecasts before thinking or acting, and then what they did was lop off at the easiest targets.

    These guys are VERY ANTI-EDUCATION and the head of the higher education committee in the House said repeatedly things that implied that the state’s higher education needs could be met by community colleges rather than 4 year institutions. There are 4 regional 4 year publics that provide a great deal of professor/student opportunity and do not pay their faculty 6 figure salaries or their football coach 7 figure salaries. It didn’t matter. All those idiots could do was rant about UW.

    I think they should have considered a more heavy re-vamp of the way we do business last year. Will anyone tell us what the boards and commissions cost? Why is that never seen a reasonable place to start cutting? When you look on the budget pages their work is lumped in with other budget lines, so for me anyway, it’s hard to find. Must we do a public information request to get the facts?

    I hope that Chopp gets voted out. I don’t live in Seattle, so I have no say in that. I do have a say in tossing out Karen Fraser on her ear though.

  8. 9

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Faceless Bureaucrat @ 5–
    Are there many others who see things the way you do? There is power in numbers and if you can organized and come forward as a group, it makes it much less likely Gregoire can wreak vengeance on you WhistleBlowers.
    It is time for insiders to come forward and educate the taxpayers about what is really happening in the trenches.

    PS–
    You are not the first to state this from the inside. It really is sick and threatens the very fabric of our American way of life.

  9. 10

    Faceless Bureaucrat spews:

    Lauramea, as you may know the governor has made an effort to prune boards and commissions. She proposed a pretty substantial number of cuts last year but the legislature didn’t go along with many of them.

    That said, I suspect that even if you got your entire wish list approved, it would not be a terribly big budget driver.

    That’s the problem — the deficit is so large that the typical “good government” solutions don’t get us very far.

  10. 11

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    lauramae–
    You are correct. The Budget Documents do not have more detailed supporting documents so it is impossible to untangle the Bird’s Nest in the fishing line.
    This is what happens when 1 Party controls the Legislature and Governor’s Office and 1 Party has controlled the Governor’s Office for 26 years.
    It is a behemoth. A corrupt, bureaucratic nightmare. The only way to have a significant imapact is to throw all the bastards who created it (and that includes some Republicans) and clean house internally.
    Tax increases merely postpone the inevitable and make the inevitable even worse.

  11. 12

    xom spews:

    The economy was nearly as bad this time last year, and getting worse, and nearly everybody who studied the numbers understood that additional cuts would likely be needed in 2010 as revenues continued to fall.

    ———-

    Yes, well, for all your “insights,” Goldy, where were you three or four years ago when the housing and credit debacle was beginning to gather steam and warning signs were flashing red? Our state’s political leadership – and you – missed these even though it’s been pointed out time and again they were hard to miss if you bothered to look. Instead, people were doing high fives over the abundance of revenue and all of the programs it would finance.

    Now you’re offering us your advice?

  12. 13

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    66. Faceless Bureaucrat spews:

    I work in state government. Even though I tend to vote for liberal Democrats, I would be the first to say that there are plenty of places were budget cuts could safely be made. There are also many ways that state government could be made more efficient and effective. I’d personally be willing to take a cut in pay/benefits if that avoided massive layoffs, and I know many state workers who feel similarly.

    Obviously pre-Election Budget Numbers were a result of COOKED BOOKS. You don’t get votes raising taxes or cutting expenses/Programs.
    The damage is that the delay means deeper cuts…or much higher taxes IN THE FACE OF A RECESSION.

    I have an idea…rather than fantasize about taxing “rich people”…why not have a Progressive Tax-Fundraiser where folks voluntarily pay more?? The challenge the Rich folks to much what you COLLECT (pledges don’t count!).

    That would be putting your money where your big mouths are. Progressives are in the vast Majority in Washington, right? So it shoud be easy to raise a $1 BILLION or so.

    Good luck and keep me updated on your progress.

  13. 14

    Faceless Bureaucrat spews:

    Mr. Cynical, state government is like anywhere else – it has a mix of good and not so good employees. The rank and file also has a healthy mix of ideological perspectives. I work side by side with staunch progressives and equally determined conservatives. What binds us is a commitment to doing good work — and a neighborly civility that is often lacking in the blogosphere.

    Do not assume that the union speaks for state workers – even those of us who are represented (not everyone is) and believe in the value of unions. Lots of rank and file would rather take a pay cut than see valuable programs gutted.

    At the same time, I don’t think conservatives do themselves any favors by indiscriminately beating up on government workers and programs. Those of us in the trenches have an intimate sense of what happens when programs are eliminated that, for example, help frail elderly in heart-breakingly basic ways.

    Gregoire’s basic problem is that she wants to revamp the face of state government but doesn’t have the expertise to do it. There’s plenty that needs fixing, but change for the sake of change wastes time and money.

  14. 15

    Blue John spews:

    Hey cyn, how would YOU like to take a 10% pay cut and cut YOUR benefits by 20%? Lose a 1/5 of your sick leave, vacation and have your health costs go up by 20%?
    Easy to say when it doesn’t effect you.

  15. 16

    Blue John spews:

    In other words, cyn would like to slash their pay and benefits to nothing, have them work for illegal alien wages! They are just government workers, it’s not like you are hurting real humans.
    —-
    There is a constant push in conservative land to do everything they can to hack the system to keep the best and the brightest from going into public service.
    If bright skilled people could make living wages at a government job, they would make government work. And conservatives hate the idea of government being successful. Look at cyn, every single suggestion he makes undermines and weakens the fabric of a successful government that helps people, not the rich and powerful and the corporations.

  16. 17

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    15. Blue John spews:

    Hey cyn, how would YOU like to take a 10% pay cut and cut YOUR benefits by 20%? Lose a 1/5 of your sick leave, vacation and have your health costs go up by 20%?
    Easy to say when it doesn’t effect you.

    My argument is you are PUBLIC SERVANTS. Your pay and especially benefits are simply not warranted in this deep recession. You are lucky to have a job! Many in the Private Sector do not.

    I believe Faceless Bureaucrat makes many good points. I also believe Unions have no business in Government. They have created this mess with political pressure on Gregoire & democrats to do their bidding.
    Why should State Workers be forced to join the Union and Conservative State Workers forced to backdoor contribute to Democrat Campaigns??
    It makes no sense.

    Hopefully State workers will organize and get rid of the onerous Union or DEMAND they be allowed to work without joining or at the very least be able to opt-out of their Dues used for Politics.

    It only makes common-sense.

    I like Faceless’s willingness to take a cut & pay in wages & benefits. Sadly, the Unions will block such an approach.

    The Unions lost Boeing.
    It will result in huge revenue hits to the State ultimately.
    Yet the Unions demand no lay-offs and no cuts in salary/benefits of State Workers????
    C’mon…
    Only in Washington would KLOWNS see fairness in Union actions cutting revenue…but it having no impact on Union members.

  17. 18

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    15. Blue John spews:

    Hey cyn, how would YOU like to take a 10% pay cut and cut YOUR benefits by 20%? Lose a 1/5 of your sick leave, vacation and have your health costs go up by 20%?
    Easy to say when it doesn’t effect you.

    Please BJ, you are becoming a bigger Drama Queen than Jon Devore.

    I said cut wages 10% and benefits 20%…not down to nothing. Once again you misstate in your angry funk. 90% and 80% is waaaaaaaay better than ZERO.
    The money must come from some where.
    Your only solution is to raise taxes on Rich Folks. Pathetic. Rich Folks will leave if forced to cough up another $2.6 BILLION to Washington State and 5.4% to Obam-Mao.

    Idiot.

  18. 20

    Blue John spews:

    I live in Seattle, I don’t blog in Texas politics. I don’t care. Why do you care about WA if you don’t live here? What’s your stake in this?

  19. 21

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @4 “The Unions are in control…not the electeds.”

    Yeah sure, the unions got everything they wanted, and that’s why they’re threatening to withhold campaign donations from their legislative lackeys.

    But the more appropriate question here is: What’s wrong with unions? Nothing! America isn’t exactly a workers’ paradise, but it was a lot worse before unions came along. Unions are responsible for liveable wages, worker safety laws, the 40-hour work week and overtime benefit, health and retirement benefits, and almost everything else that makes up most Americans’ standard of living. Unions created the middle class; and if you’re against unions, you’re against most Americans.

    The question should be, not what’s wrong with unions, but what’s wrong with you?

  20. 22

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @5 This governor, like all governors, is too focused on what looks good instead of what works.

  21. 23

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @13 Thanks for the suggestions, Klown. The state wouldn’t be where it is, if it had used Boeing and Washington Mutual as models of good management, hey?

  22. 24

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @14 “Lots of rank and file would rather take a pay cut than see valuable programs gutted.”

    Actually, all of them — because the pay cut begins the day you accept state employment; and if you make a career of public service, you will spend your entire life working for less money than other people get. But hey, if you stick it out for 30 years, you may or may not get the pension that was promised you but which the state hasn’t been making the employer contributions to.

  23. 25

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    15, 16 — Every successful business person I’ve ever talked to, or read about, pays their key employees well. A friend of mine is a retired business exec, and has a son who owns his own business, and he says his kid pays big money to the people working for him. I’m not aware of a single instance where someone built a successful long-term business by continually sending a message to his employees that he’s going to keep cutting pay as far as he can. If you want to have a workforce that has no loyalty to you, doesn’t give a shit about the job, and won’t stay … the surest way of getting it is by sending a message that you don’t value them and they’re not worth much.

  24. 26

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @17 “My argument is you are PUBLIC SERVANTS.”

    Which means what? That we volunteered to be kicked around by assholes like you? I like the idea of joining a union and bargaining for reasonable pay and working conditions better.

    Frankly, I wouldn’t work for you, or for a business that you owned, Klown. You have LOUSY EMPLOYER written all over you. Nor would I hire you for a business that I owned. You have LOUSY EMPLOYEE written all over you, too. Your problem is you have a LOUSY ATTITUDE and that doesn’t work anywhere, at any time, in any setting.

  25. 27

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @18 “I said cut wages 10% and benefits 20%…not down to nothing.”

    And I say don’t cut them at all because public pay is already discounted 30% to 50% compared to private sector pay. You take a pay cut of that magnitude the day you begin working for the state — so why should your pay be cut any more?

  26. 28

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @19 Because he owns commercial property in Seattle and has to pay property taxes. Because he thinks property taxes on commercial property should be zero because he’s not getting rich fast enough to suit him.

  27. 29

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Well, if Klown’s investments aren’t paying off, he has no one to blame but himself. For voting Republican. Before Republicans came along, your home and stocks were worth something, your business had customers, and your investments paid 5% to 15% a year, depending on how astute you were. Now, retirees like Klown are lucky if they can get 1% a year on their money, and since inflation is more than what banks pay savers, he’s paying the banks for the privilege of losing his money. Why the fuck would anyone — even Republicans — vote for Republicans?

  28. 30

    GBS spews:

    Mr. Cynical wants to cut the benefits of PUBLIC SERVANTS like cops, fire fighters, first responders!!

    Why do conservatives “SAY” they support the military, cops etc, yet shit all over them when it comes to supporting them with pay??

    Why does Mr. C have so much hate and contempt for people who risk their lives to serve him the instant he picks up the phone dials 9-1-1 and has PUBLIC SERVANTS there in minutes.

    Of course, he’d bitch if it takes more than 4 minutes.

  29. 31

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    Speaking of taxes and who should pay them, I have heard both sides of the aisle on the national fromnt say that it is OK to not fund abortions because “some people have moral objections to having their tax money used for abortion.”

    Sounds so reasonable, doesn’t it.

    What about pacifists and the wars? They should not have their tax money used for war if they are morally against it.

  30. 33

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    What about pacifists and the wars? They should not have their tax money used for war if they are morally against it.

    Most of them don’t pay taxes…and want to live in a SAFE Country.
    I have said repeatedly I favor limiting Government’s role to primarily Defense/Public Safety and Necessary/Essential Infrastructure.
    Parks are nice…not essential.
    Libraries are nice…not essential.
    School Band/Art/Video/Athletics etc. are nice, not essential.

    Look at what is truly MANDATORY and re-visit all laws & regulations related to that mandate…or even whether or not the Mandate is realistic in this recession.
    Nice vs. Essential.
    Like needs vs. wants.

  31. 34

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    The vile reaction of the Leftists to cutting government over-reach and spending is mighty telling, ain’t it Marvin & Puddy?
    Seems like they are almost ADDICTED to the government. The only way to wean them is to take away the money and freebies. It’s for their own good.
    Here is the “Sustainable KROWD” over-reliant on government. How is that truly sustainable??
    It appears it’s not.
    OPM Addicts Anonymous @ HorsesAss.org for addicts to OTHER PEOPLE’S MONEY!

  32. 35

    Blue John spews:

    You are calling me Drama Queen and you then you write comments like:

    It is a behemoth. A corrupt, bureaucratic nightmare. The only way to have a significant imapact is to throw all the bastards who created it (and that includes some Republicans) and clean house internally.

    and

    Your only solution is to raise taxes on Rich Folks. Pathetic. Rich Folks will leave if forced to cough up another $2.6 BILLION to Washington State and 5.4% to Obam-Mao.

  33. 38

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    re 33: “I have said repeatedly….”

    I think the broad trend in election returns since 2006 will give you a good idea of what people think of your endless repetitions.

    They even have public parks in North Korea you fucking twerp.

  34. 39

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    33. Mr. Cynical spews:
    I have said repeatedly I favor limiting Government’s role to primarily Defense/Public Safety and Necessary/Essential Infrastructure.
    Parks are nice…not essential.
    Libraries are nice…not essential.
    School Band/Art/Video/Athletics etc. are nice, not essential.

     
    Is that on the federal level or all levels including local?

  35. 40

    Blue John spews:

    Parks are nice…not essential.
    Libraries are nice…not essential.
    School Band/Art/Video/Athletics etc. are nice, not essential.

    I see your point, because if you have wealth, you can purchase all of those things. If you don’t well, green spaces, knowledge, exercise, even art, you just have to live without.

    cyn, when I imagine your fiscally stripped away world, I see Somalia or Nicaragua or some sort of Dickensian society. That is not a culture, a society I think is where I want America to become. Is that the world you want to live in?

  36. 41

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    re 34: I’ve never had a government ‘handout’ of any sort in my entire life. What ‘freebies’ are you talking about?

    Are you talking about the free infrastructure that government supplies to home developers and all sorts of other ‘private’ businesses?

  37. 43

    Blue John spews:

    […pacifists ] Most of them don’t pay taxes

    You got proof that the bulk of people who claim to be pacifists don’t pay taxes, because otherwise you are just lying.

  38. 44

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @30 “Mr. Cynical wants to cut the benefits of PUBLIC SERVANTS like cops, fire fighters, first responders!!”

    That was Suzie Hutchison’s campaign pitch — and look where it got her.

  39. 45

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @30 (continued) “Why does Mr. C have so much hate and contempt for people who risk their lives to serve him the instant he picks up the phone dials 9-1-1 and has PUBLIC SERVANTS there in minutes.”

    Because he’s a stupid goatfucking asshole who either doesn’t know any better or suffers from a social pathology.

    Klown thinks people like that DOT worker who was killed on the job Wednesday should work for minimum wage and no benefits. And, of course, Klown also thinks there should be no minimum wage, which means he thinks we should staff government services with volunteers who work for free.

  40. 46

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @31 You can get out of paying taxes for Republicans’ pet wars. Do what I do — don’t work. Republicans want to put all the taxes on workers so the Owning Class doesn’t have to pay anything. Well, I say be an owner, not a worker! If you can’t lick their tax code, then take advantage of it! If you have a job, quit! Then you won’t have to pay Republican taxes. Better yet, don’t quit, wait for your boss to fire you, then get a good lawyer and sue his ass! After all, he doesn’t work for your money, so why should you? You’re entitled to get money the same way your boss gets it — by taking it from him! After all, if you worked for the bastard, you earned it.

  41. 47

    Blue John spews:

    @45 I’m sure sin doesn’t want them to work for free, just the same wages they make in Bangladesh or Viet Nam.

  42. 48

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Marvin @ 39–
    All levels.
    We need Fed for Interestate Highways and National Defense
    We need locals to deal with water/sewer and Police/Fire.

    I believe there is waaaaaaay too much Fed and State involvement in local decisions in these areas, hence a big waste of tax dollars on Big Brother/Big Sister oversight of local decisions. I’d cut much of the Fed oversight.
    We need more $$ into projects and people with their hands on the shovel.
    If neighborhoods want Parks, get together and develop a plan to take care of them.
    Why is Big Government ALWAYS the answer?
    Because most folks are lazy and want handouts.

  43. 49

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Getting fired isn’t a problem. Trust me, you’re gonna get fired, no matter how loyal you are or how hard you work or how much you contribute. You’re kidding yourself if you think your boss appreciates you. You don’t have to do anything to get fired — just wait for him to be his natural self. Trust me, you’re gonna get fired, that’s beyond your control. Just make sure you have a good lawyer already lined up when it comes. That is within your control

  44. 50

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    I swear. These wingnuts all sound like some old John Bircher pamphlet.

    Incidentally, the John Birch Society has denounced George W. Bush on many occasions. They question his patriotism.

  45. 51

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Blue John @ 47–
    Once again the Drama QUeen!!

    47. Blue John spews:

    @45 I’m sure sin doesn’t want them to work for free, just the same wages they make in Bangladesh or Viet Nam.

    I said a 10% Wage Cut and 20% Benefit Cut and the Big Government Trough-feeder BJ twists it into 47.

    Do you have PROOF a 10% decrease in Wages and 20% decrease in Benefits would make state workers like Bangladesh or Viet Nam.
    If you can’t prove it, you are a LIAR B

    lue John.

    The ultimate Drama Queen Blue John. If we have to cut any spending, we will turn into a 3rd world country.

    TOO DAMN FUNNY!

  46. 52

    Blue John spews:

    If neighborhoods want Parks, get together and develop a plan to take care of them.
    We did already. We called it Government. We created Government and then voted for representatives or even directly to authorize and pay for things like parks, libraries, and art.
    Remember the Commons? We didn’t want that and we voted to keep it from happening.

  47. 53

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    Let’s stop building and repairing roads. We can all put our SUV’s to the test.

    I can assure you that big business would be the 1st ones to cry about that — but not enough to pay for it.

  48. 54

    Michael spews:

    @34

    I’m a heathy guy, I ride around on a bike (want to talk OPM lets talk about all that gasoline I’m not using, wear and tear on roads I’m not causing, air pollution I’m not causing), I don’t have kids. I use very little in the way of OPM.

    Between my employer’s and my contribution to my health insurance we spend about 4K a year. I use $600-800 a year in doctoring. Other people are using the rest of my money.

    I’ve had the same car insurance policy since I was 18, I’ve never caused an accident. Other people have been using all that money I’ve spent. It pisses me off when I see giant trucks with “drill baby drill” charging around and running red lights. Those ass-wipes cause really expensive car wrecks that my money pays for. They want my tax dollars to be spent drilling in Alaska so that they can charge around and cause accidents and raise my insurance!

    Want to talk about OPM, take a look at this:

    http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=8230

    he federal government spent $92 billion in direct and indirect subsidies to businesses and private- sector corporate entities — expenditures commonly referred to as “corporate welfare” — in fiscal year 2006. The definition of business subsidies used in this report is broader than that used by the Department of Commerce’s Bureau of Economic Analysis, which recently put the costs of direct business subsidies at $57 billion in 2005. For the purposes of this study, “corporate welfare” is defined as any federal spending program that provides payments or unique benefits and advantages to specific companies or industries.

  49. 56

    yo spews:

    @ 27 Roger –

    I love your posts in general; I have to disagree….as far as technical positions (engineers in particular) the pay is equivalent to private sector for many….sometimes significantly higher. Rarely much lower.

    I have no problem with these levels of salaries for gov’t employees, I’m just saying.

  50. 57

    Ekimm spews:

    @33:

    What about pacifists and the wars? They should not have their tax money used for war if they are morally against it.

    Most of them don’t pay taxes

    You have proof of this?

  51. 58

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    Well, Cynical, got any more things you constantly repeat? Besides, “Where’s the bloody mary mix?”

  52. 59

    yo spews:

    I might add to my previous comment that I think private sector pay for these skilled jobs (just like everything else) had flattened out or receded over the past 20 years whereas gov’t pay has probably tracked inflation.

  53. 60

    Blue John spews:

    Cyn clamors that government is not responsive at times but consider the alternative.
    How responsive is Boeing being to the needs of the people?
    How responsive are the Wal-mart heirs being to the needs of the people?

  54. 61

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    I continually have friends and acquaintances, usually over age 50, coming to me for legal advice because they’re just been fired from a job they’ve had for 25 or 30 years that they thought they’d never be fired from, and they want to know what their options are.

    What usually happens is the company sends in a new management team. These people are young, ambitious, and ruthless. Invariably, the first thing they do is get rid of the older employees. There are several reasons for this. For example, there’s a widespread belief that older employees cost more (sure; but they also produce more, so it usually doesn’t pay to fire them, but who said the world is rational?). But the main reason is they feel uncomfortable supervising employees old enough to be their parents. What they want is young workers they can push around. So, the 25-year guys (and gals) are shown the door.

    If you’re over 50, and your 60-year-old boss just got replaced by a 35-year-old, your job is gone. Bet on it. If that happens, you’d better waste no time in finding a competent employment attorney, because you don’t have months — you have only a few weeks.

    Here’s the advice I give my friends. They say, “isn’t age discrimination against the law?” I reply, “sure, but it’s impossible to prove that’s why they fired you, and you can count on them to deny that was the reason and to come up with a boxful of bullshit excuses.”

    But — here’s the magic of our legal system — litigation costs so goddam much you don’t have to prove anything or win in court. You just don’t have to. They’ll settle. It’ll take 3 to 5 years before you see any money, but you’ll eventually get between 1 and 2 years of salary, of which your attorney will take a third. They’ll give you a good recommendation, too, just to get you off their back. If you make $80,000 a year, you can get $75,000 to $150,000 out of them for the privilege of replacing you with a 25-year-old, depending on how good your lawyer is, and they’ll pay it because they don’t want to their customers to read in the newspapers that they got sued for age discrimination.

    So, when the employer you trusted rewards your long years of loyal service by firing you, don’t have a nervous breakdown — get a fucking lawyer! Sue the bastards! Trust me, they will pay you a fat settlement. I’ve seen this happen countless times, and they always pay a settlement. None of these cases ever goes to court. Litigation is too expensive, and they can’t afford the bad publicity.

  55. 62

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    Cynical can’t use the public option when we get it because of the Republican Royal Pain in the Ass (RRPIA) exclusion.

    Franken introduced the amendment.

    That’s SENATOR Al Franken.

  56. 63

    rhp6033 spews:

    49: I knew a guy who was brought in as a “fixer” for businesses in trouble. It was a pretty good gig – if the business turned around he got the credit, regardless of whether it had anything to do with his efforts. If it didn’t turn around, he could always say it was too far gone for anyone to help.

    Now, I said I knew this guy, but that doesn’t mean we were friends. I didn’t like the way he did things.

    He bragged to me that one of the things he always did was fire someone the first day he was on the job. If it was a big company, he would fire someone in each department. Of course, it didn’t matter that he hadn’t been there long enough to know who needed to be fired. He just wanted to fire someone who was visible enough that it would make an impression on everyone else. He wouldn’t fire the executives yet – he needed them for a while to run the company. But anyone just under them would do.

    In that vein, I remember reading a book which profiled despotic regimes, featuring Hitler’s Nazi Germany, Stalin’s Soviet Union, Mao’s China, and Saddam’s Iraq. One of the points it made was that it was the arbitrary nature of the violence which tended to create fear and discouraged desent. It wouldn’t just be the neighbors down the hall that always complained who were taken in the middle of the night, it would often be the family next door who seemed harmless. This guy operated on the same principal.

    Of course, it didn’t make for a better company. Good employees who wouldn’t tolerate such an environment simply left for better jobs elsewhere. What it did do was keep the bad employees who can’t get a job anywhere else, but cow them into keeping quiet and not revealing anything which might embarrass the guy in charge.

  57. 64

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    RR: The time for someone of any age to start looking for a new job is the moment you get a new one. I learned this when I was 48 from a 24 year old. Instead of moving UP the ladder in the same job, you job-hop and move up twicw as fast.

    It works. Just because you are old does not mean you can’t be nimble.

  58. 65

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    49. Roger Rabbit spews:
    Trust me, you’re gonna get fired, no matter how loyal you are or how hard you work or how much you contribute.

     
    You got fired from being a judge?

  59. 66

    SJ TrollPatrol (c)2009 spews:

    @51 Mr C .. in re Tolly’s

    If you do not have me phone oe email just repply to anything over at SJ. I will be notified and get back to you if you include a contact number, etc.

  60. 67

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    It’s so much more satisfying to have your boss come in one morning and ask YOU why you are cleaning your desk out.

  61. 68

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @59 “whereas gov’t pay has probably tracked inflation.”

    No. Public employees almost never keep up with inflation.

    When Gregoire first came to office in 2005, she was criticized by the usual suspects (Klown, et al.) for giving state workers what really were modest raises. At that point, they’d gone 4 years without a COLA, and without those raises, they’d have gone 6 years without a pay adjustment. Those raises weren’t a gift. No employer pays workers from the goodness of his heart. Gregoire put those raises in the budget because the state was losing its ability to compete for labor. When you pay less than everyone else, you get the bottom of the barrel or no one at all.

    Historically, an argument used to justify the lower pay of public jobs was that work was steady, i.e., you didn’t have to worry about layoffs. As we’ve seen, though, this is no longer true. Public servants are just as prone to layoffs, furloughs, and pay cuts as everyone else. So, this rationale for low public salaries isn’t valid.

  62. 69

    rhp6033 spews:

    RR @ 61: Of course, most large companies have started having their employees sign an arbitration agreement as part of their conditions of employment. That changes things considerably. Because instead of having to pay court costs of a couple hundred dollars to start a lawsuit, you now have to pay half the costs – up front – of a three-member arbitration panel, which is usually consists of one attorney appointed by your lawyer, one attorney appointed by the company lawyer, and a third attorney agreed to by the other two lawyers.

    Ever wonder how much it costs to pay for three lawyers to hear testimoney, negotiate among themselves, and issue a ruling? Figure 20 to 40 hours for each of the trhee lawyers, at between $250 to $500 per hour. Then divide that in half.

    Of course, the company will post their share right away. Because they know that if you can’t post your share within a reasonable time (usually a month or two), then your case gets dismissed and the company gets it’s money back.

    And while you are trying to raise your share of the money so you can have your day in court, be sure to tell the mortgage company that you are currently unemployed, but hope to get a settlement from your employer within 1-2 years.

    Obviously, I think it’s an abuse of the arbitration system, and it shouldn’t be allowed in employment disputes.

  63. 71

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    60. Blue John spews:
    Cyn clamors that government is not responsive at times but consider the alternative.
    How responsive is Boeing being to the needs of the people?

     
    When you say responsive to the needs of the people, which people do you mean?
     
    You and your neighbors?
     
    Their customers? Do they not serve their customers?

  64. 72

    rhp6033 spews:

    “Instead of moving UP the ladder in the same job, you job-hop and move up twicw as fast.”

    It’s unfortunate that the system rewards this type of behavior. But reward it, it does. The minute you get a job in private industry, the employer is working to keep your raises at a minimum. It’s rather standard for HR directors to offer new employees a lower salary to start, with vague indications that the new guy would get a substantial raise in a few months once he/she proved themselves. But it never happens. The H.R. goal is to give raises just barely at the level which will keep the employees unhappy, but not quite unhappy enough to quit.

    In my own company, there were lots of grumblings about the (very small) pay raises we got for several years, with the company arguing that it was doing the best it can, and that it was still paying above the industry average. But then it was accidently learned that new hires were being paid substantially more than employees who had been there over ten years, and the company was faced with an open revolt.

    If you perform your current job well, don’t expect to get promoted. Nobody wants you to move from the job where you are at. That just means they have to train you in the new job, and train your replacement in the old job at the same time. They prefer to hire someone off the street for the higher position, rather than promote you. Besides, after you’ve worked there for a few years, they can always find an excuse why they don’t want you in that position. But a guy with a well-written resume, a relative unkown, often gets the job.

  65. 73

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @65 Some judges are elected and others are appointed, but either way, you can be fired — unless you’re a federal judge with lifetime tenure.

  66. 74

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    For example, municipal judges are often appointed by city councils, and can lose their jobs if they don’t bring in enough money for the city — which is why so many municipal courts are presided over by petty despots.

  67. 75

    Michael spews:

    @70
    Methane is a big green house gas and I am known to crank the occasional large fart or belch…

    The point at 54 being that we all use each others money to some degree and, counter to what Cyn claimed, more of my money gets used by others than I use of theirs.

  68. 76

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @69 The solution is don’t accept employment from such an employer in the first place.

    I would never buy anything from a company that required me to sign away my rights to sue them for consumer fraud.

    This is the same thing.

    An employer who demands an agreement like that is someone you can’t trust enough to work for.

  69. 78

    Blue John spews:

    @71. My point exactly. We are not their customers. All that matters to them is profit. You conservatories are hell bent on destroying the entity who is SUPPOSED to be responsible to the people.

  70. 79

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    60. Blue John spews:

    How responsive are the Wal-mart heirs being to the needs of the people?

    Pretty dang good.
    More than Minimum Wage with Benefits and opportunity to move up. A Produce Dpet. Manager makes nearly $60K that we know.
    ANd they offer highly affordable goods that little shops cannot or will not.

    It’s funny how Leftists fawn all over small retailers. The Internet made Retail a Dinosaur. Those days are over except for Tourist Traps and highly service oriented type shops. Tiny retailers pay MINIMUM WAGE and NO BENEFITS.
    Wake up.

  71. 80

    spews:

    Mr. Cynical @ 17,

    “I also believe Unions have no business in Government [blah, blah, blah…]

    Hopefully State workers will organize and get rid of the onerous Union…”

    That’s too precious. You want the state workers to organize to form the Anti-Union Union?

    But, coming from a Wingnut like you, I’m not surprised by the contradiction. It is as sensible as a Republican running for office. You know, electing someone who hates government to run it.

  72. 81

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    62. Mr. Concervycal spews:

    Cynical can’t use the public option when we get it because of the Republican Royal Pain in the Ass (RRPIA) exclusion.

    Franken introduced the amendment.

    That’s SENATOR Al Franken.

    My isn’t Senator Franken a real grown-up.
    That will be used against him next time.
    How unnecessary…but we’re thankful for his idiocy.

  73. 82

    Blue John spews:

    If you had used Costco as your example, you would have scored better. Costco routinely gets chastised for paying it’s employees too much. Costco I’m sure has it it’s problems, but it’s not nearly as predatory as Wal-Mart.

    Wal-Mart’s policies drive local stores and American manufacturers out of business.

    Because of Wal-Mart’s size and economic clout, its low standards drive down those of other companies—or it drives them out of business completely.

    This typical Wal-Mart store costs federal taxpayers $420,000 a year, which averages out to $2,103 for each Wal-Mart employee.

    Wal-Mart has long depended on high turn-over, with some 50 percent of its employees departing before they were eligible for benefits. Even so, the memo from Wal-Mart’s Susan Chambers expressed concern that workers were staying too long, thereby pushing up wage and benefit costs, although she stopped short of calling for efforts to push out more senior workers.

    Although Wal-Mart requires an employee to work 34 hours a week to qualify as full time, the average workweek is only 32 hours. Part-time workers have to wait two years to qualify for insurance. Given the high turnover, few workers even reach eligibility.

    Wal-Mart stores reduce employment by anywhere from 2 to 4 percent and depress local wages by as much as 5 percent.

  74. 83

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @71 “Do they not serve their customers?”

    Gee, Marvin, I’m glad you brought that up! Boeing is two years behind schedule in delivering their new plane, and the customers will be getting a product whose structural integrity is questionable. Is that what you call serving their customers?

  75. 84

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Boeing wouldn’t have had these problems if they had stuck with their union workforce, and paid them well and treated them decently, instead of outsourcing the manufacturing of the plane’s parts to contractors they can’t control and repeatedly kicking their own workers in the pants.

    I don’t own any Boeing stock, even at today’s knocked-down share price. I don’t think the company has a future.

  76. 85

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @79 OK, so five people in a typical Wal-Mart store make more than a taxi driver — the manager and department heads. How does that do anything for the hundreds of thousands of Wal-Mart employees making less than $20,000 a year with no benefits?

  77. 86

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    Wal-Mart is an extreme example of a company that makes billions for its rich founders by shoveling their labor costs onto taxpayers.

  78. 87

    spews:

    Mr. Cynical @ 81,

    My isn’t Senator Franken a real grown-up.
    That will be used against him next time.
    How unnecessary…but we’re thankful for his idiocy.

    It was a fucking joke you MORON! You seem to be losing your sense of humor, Mr. Cynical. What’s the matter? Perhaps your are realizing how utterly bankrupt your political philosophy is? Or is your utter irrelevance getting to you?

    Take some time off and regroup, Mr. Cynical. We need you and your sense of humor around here for our amusement. Without your sense of humor, all that’s left is the asshole side of you.

  79. 88

    Blue John spews:

    So you will also be wanting to get of the Conservative senators for some of the things THEY say?

  80. 89

    Michael spews:

    @86

    They’d probably make as much or more money if they paid their employees enough that they could shop for instead of shoplift their baby formula.

    See it works this way. Employee’s aren’t stupid and if they’re underpaid and mistreated they will find ways to make the pay they think they deserve. Maybe they swipe the occasional thing, grab a free hot dog and pop instead of paying, maybe they keep the cruise control at 80% while they’re working or they take a little longer than allowed on their brakes. Or they leave. And replacing employees, even at Walmart wages, is expensive.

    Walmart’s “business” model is based, not on business, but their colonial/elitist/Antebellum world view.

  81. 90

    Mr. Concervycal spews:

    re 81: You are funny in ways you’ll never know.

    I know that I’ll be telling you of more SENATOR Al Franken legislation in the near future.

  82. 91

    Michael spews:

    Costco’s CEO treats his employees how in his view a “good Christian” should treat people. Both models (Costco/Walmart) made people rich, both models were based in large part on peoples world view.

    The Walton’s think it’s just fine to treat people like shit and to raid the public coffers. And we allow them to run a business this way why? Simply cutting off their access to the public coffers would force them to change their business model.

  83. 92

    Daddy Love spews:

    This is ridiculous.

    Yes, raise taxes. Duh. It’s not some crazy radical new idea, it’s what states do during recessions to prop up falling revenues from depressed economic activity, in order to preserve vital public seerr vices such as education, heatlh care, public safety, and so on.

    John Spellman did it. Dan Evans did it.

    What IS different today is that we have a new kind of Republican out there: extremist slash-and-burners who have pissed on the social compact that allowed us in earlier decades to agree on the importance of things like education and to take the steps needed to support them. Now they just want to blow up the whole fucking country and take us down with them. Fuck that.

    Here in Washington, Republican Neaderthals (with apologies to Homo heidelberensis), you don’t have shit to say about it, no one cares what you think, and you will STILL not be able to elect more of your people into office because we regard your incompetent governance lower than taxes or unemployment.

    Have fun in 2010 ovecoming the low opinion everyone has of you.

    I really that Republicans realize this, and that they realistically ARE thinking that only armed revolution or a dramatic worsening of our economic crises (hence their neo-Hooverite “end the stimulus” idiocy) will improve their electoral fortunes. Is Sarah Palin a Shicklgruber-in-waiting?

  84. 93

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    89. Michael spews:
    See it works this way. Employee’s aren’t stupid and if they’re underpaid and mistreated they will find ways to make the pay they think they deserve.

     
    You have a misguided view of your fellow americans.
     
    Or is this an admission your boss is lucky he is paying you enough, otherwise you would steal from him.

  85. 94

    spews:

    Marvin Stamn,

    “Or is this an admission your boss is lucky he is paying you enough, otherwise you would steal from him.”

    You reveal a little too much about yourself.

    I read it as meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!

  86. 95

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    94. Darryl spews:
    Marvin Stamn,
    I read it as meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!

     
    This sentence could give that impression-

    they will find ways to make the pay they think they deserve.

     
    Do you honestly read this as “meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!”?

    Maybe they swipe the occasional thing, grab a free hot dog and pop instead of paying, maybe they keep the cruise control

  87. 96

    David spews:

    @95 Do you honestly read this as “meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!”?

    But of course not! Nobody in their right mind could possibly draw that interpretation from this @89:

    “they will find ways to make the pay they think they deserve. Maybe they swipe the occasional thing, grab a free hot dog and pop instead of paying, maybe they keep the cruise control at 80% while they’re working or they take a little longer than allowed on their brakes. Or they leave.”

  88. 97

    spews:

    Marvin Stamn,

    Do you honestly read this as “meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!”?

    Maybe they swipe the occasional thing, grab a free hot dog and pop instead of paying, maybe they keep the cruise control

    No…but did you read this as Michael confessing that he steals from his employer?

    Or they leave. And replacing employees, even at Walmart wages, is expensive.

  89. 98

    spews:

    David @ 96,

    Stealing and leaving were both discussed. How telling that you chose to focus on the “stealing from the employer” option!

  90. 99

    Roger Rabbit spews:

    @92 “Is Sarah Palin a Shicklgruber-in-waiting?”

    Al Schicklgruber’s kid was a twisted freak, probably because of all the inbreeding in that family. Al was fucking every girl in the village, and his wife probably was fucking every boy in the village. Everyone in town was related, but nobody knew who their parents were.

  91. 100

    Marvin Stamn spews:

    97. Darryl spews:
    Marvin Stamn,
    No…but did you read this as Michael confessing that he steals from his employer?

     
    What’s up with you tonight? Drinking?
     
    I never said michael confessed that he steals from his employer.
     
    I feel that my sentence implies the opposite, that he doesn’t steal because he’s paid enough.
     

    Or is this an admission your boss is lucky he is paying you enough, otherwise you would steal from him.

  92. 101

    papula spews:

    @100 What’s up with you tonight? Drinking?

    Drinking? You wish that was his excuse! Michael writes:

    “they will find ways to make the pay they think they deserve. Maybe they swipe the occasional thing, grab a free hot dog and pop instead of paying, maybe they keep the cruise control at 80% while they’re working or they take a little longer than allowed on their brakes. Or they leave.”

    Darryl concludes:

    “I read it as meaning that underpaid employees would seek better-paying jobs!”

    No wonder his students only have this to say about his communications skills:

    “He’s a little lazy”
    “He tends to be a little obscure”
    “He’s an easy grader”
    “I learned little to nothing”
    “Dr. Holman frequently was unprepared”
    “Often ended class early”
    “Completely unorganized”
    “Didn’t have lectures prepared”
    “Made students feel stupid”

    Even if he had his lectures prepared, he’d still have to be able to read them correctly!

    This is what students pay increased tuition for!

    Bwahahahahaha!

  93. 102

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Agonizing over Retailers like Costco & Wal-Mart is a monumental waste of time.
    Get this…
    The days of little Mom & Pop retailers is OVER…except for specialty items, boutiques and things where service matters.

    I know a lot of you have read the Chain-store hating ideologues. You even quote their so-called facts. The truth is lots of folks love working at Wal-Mart and obviously love shopping there.

    What are you KLOWNS gonna do…outlaw Chain Stores and force consumers to pay much more for goods & services to little rip-off guys??
    We are talking about RETAILERS. The Middle-man. As a consumer, I love paying the lowest price possible. I guess that makes me foolish, huh? And the truth is lots of the anti-Chain Store KLOWNS shop at Chain Stores!

    Please, no laws outlawing Chain Stores. They save the consumer money.

    And no laws outlawing Internet Retail.

    Let the marketplace work.
    C’mon, we are talking about RETAILERS for cryin’ out loud!!
    Grow up.
    Throw away your Wal-Mart bashing novels.
    But by all means, pay 40% more for things to support the little guy.

    Or, here’s a way to deal with your “guilt”.
    Whatever you buy at Wal-Mart, go to your local little guy non-chain and if he has the item..
    JUST GIVE HIM THE DIFFERENCE IN PRICE!!
    If you bought it for $15 at Wal-Mart and your friendly neighborhood merchandiser is selling it for $25..
    JUST PULL A TEN-SPOT OUTTA YER WALLET AND GIVE IT TO HIM!!
    1. You will be supporting a locally owned business
    2. You will be easing your guilty conscience
    3. You will save fossil fuels and the Earth by just giving the guy the $10 and not driving back to return what you bought at Wal-Mart.

    Creative thinking…..emphasis on THINKING you jackasses.

  94. 105

    spews:

    re 102: There are Mom ‘n’ Pop GROCERY stores in little tucked away communities in the Seattle area.

    The box stores will never kill the grass roots. All that asphalt just locks in the nutrients and feeds them.

    “You need EDUCATIN’!!!!!!!!”
    Randy Bachman

  95. 107

    Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

    headless farts

    You don’t know shit.

    Seems to Puddy your “arguments” put you in the same category. What does the failed FedMart have to do with anything? FedMart originated to serve the government military employees. That was not the reason Price Club, WalMart, Sam’s Club or Costco came into existence. FedMart was doing great until Hugo Mann took over and fired Sol Price. It’s another of your useless canard Factoids. Sam Walton studied KMart for years.But stay stupid headless. Steve loves you though!

    You project yourself once again – You don’t know shit. Puddy agrees with Cynical. Give the local guy your $10.

  96. 108

    Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

    Blue John farts:

    Cyn clamors that government is not responsive at times but consider the alternative. How responsive is Boeing being to the needs of the people? How responsive are the Wal-mart heirs being to the needs of the people?

    Well let’s see Blue John… I’m dealing with a homeowners street issue with Everett and it’s been two weeks since they came out agreed it was their problem and they haven’t returned multiple calls. At least the DMV has improved over the years.

    Now to Boeing and WalMart… Boeing and WalMart are privately held corporations who answer to their stockholders. Yet you drink the left-wing kook-aid all the time Blue John. The government is for the peeps by the peeps. Except when Dummocrapts get into power then it’s by any means possible for them to stay in power. Queen Chrissy lied about the state finances and fools like Roger Dumb Bunny said all is fine.

    9. Roger Rabbit spews: What deficit? There is no state deficit. The state only has a surplus, but also has hundreds of millions of dollars in a Rainy Day fund that Republicans opposed. 09/30/2008 at 1:14 pm

    That was one of many Roger Dumb Bunny comments. Butt there were many more from the rabid HA Libtardo morons, and we see they were all wrong.

    Puddy don’t need any tctmgr derived database. All Puddy has to do is remember the time the worthless, fact-less, moronic comment was said.

    Now some of you scream about Boeing getting government contracts. Don’t those contracts keep your buds, Boeing union peeps, employed? You wanna stop those contracts coming to Boeing? Well isn’t that what you claimed above when you farted this…

    We called it Government. We created Government and then voted for representatives …

    You voted for Maria CantVoteWell and Patty High Intelligence Murray to keep Boeing in the Northwest. Well Patty called a meeting after the Boeing decision. Priceless. Yet you have nothing to say when Puddy raises the issue of why IAM workers at Boeing scream about US airlines buying AirBus planes while they buy foreign cars to drive to work at Boeing? So it’s okay to kick their UAW brothers to the curb? Hmmm…?

    Now you and your leftist buds hatred of WalMart. Well let’s see right off the top of Puddy’s head he’s commented on these before at HA Libtardos. Ask your “straight” cuz ylb arschloch for his tctmgr report on these comments. WalMart does much for peeps…

    1) WalMart gives it’s employees bonuses. Does your favorite Libtardo store do that Blue John?
    2) WalMart’s $4 generic prescription program. Does your favorite Libtardo store do that Blue John?
    3) WalMart gives back to the community. Does your favorite Libtardo store do that Blue John?
    4) WalMart does price rollbacks. Does your favorite Libtardo store do that Blue John?
    5) WalMart upgraded it’s look. Did you notice Fred Meyer has done that to it’s older stores Blue John?

    Another worthless Blue John argument Up in Smoke.

  97. 109

    Puddybud Remembers Progressives Forget spews:

    papula entered

    “Often ended class early”

    So the Prof could get back to HA and perform his volunteer job… HA thread policeman!

  98. 110

    Mr. Cynical spews:

    Puddy–
    Poor Blue John.
    You undressed the little boy pretty good this AM. He has read waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to many of the Algore, Chain-store hatin’, Progressive Bullshit-spewing stuff. The fact that Blue John wants to support a dying breed is noble…IF HE DOES IT WITH HIS OWN $$. But fools like Blue John want to LEGISLATE success for the disadvantaged rather than create opportunities for success. If Blue John had his way, Wal-Mart would be penalized with much higher taxes to somehow make the playing field more fair.
    Never mind the end result of BJ’s nonsense is HIGHER PRICES FOR THE CONSUMER!
    The Question of the Day is:
    Will Blue John ever grow up and live in the real world? Or will he spend the rest of his life mired in the Progressive Utopian Unreality??

    My guess is BJ has permanent Brain Damage and is incapable of seeing the advantage of high volume retailers like Wal-mart to WE THE CONSUMER!!