No Washington… there is no Santa Claus

I want to wish a “Merry Christmas” to all my Christian friends out there. And to my many half-Christian friends, I wish a “Half-Merry Christmas.” To my “recovering Catholic” friends making their annual tension-filled trip to visit family, I realistically wish a “Tolerable Christmas.” And to my fellow Jews, I wish that movie theaters and chinese restaurants were still half-empty on Christmas day like they always were in the days of my youth back East.

To everybody else… “Happy Saturday!”

And just to prove I can twist nearly any topic into a political debate, I thought I’d relate a true Christmas story.

The other day my seven-year-old daughter — my brilliant and beautiful half-Jewish, half-Irish, shayna colleen — for the first time asked me if I believed in Santa Claus. I honestly replied, “No.”

I then asked her if she believed in Santa Claus, and without hesitation she said that she did. But when I asked her “Why?”, she paused for a moment, rolled her eyes in my direction, and incredulously exclaimed: “Well, your parents wouldn’t lie to you!”

And it occurred to me, that this is a metaphor for public perception over the torturous vote count in the governor’s race: people believe what they want to believe.

The very fact that my daughter asked me my opinion, showed that “the Santa question” had already raised certain logical incongruities not easily reconciled in her seven-year-old mind. And yet, she has chosen to believe two equally unlikely premises, that A) a magical fat man squeezes down her chimney to deliver presents on Christmas morning, and B) that her parents never lie to her.

Her suspension of disbelief is all the more remarkable considering that not only did her parents contradict each other on the question of Santa’s existence, but that neither one of us actually has a chimney that would lead Santa anywhere, but to a painful death in a fiery home furnace.

Now compare that to the many Dino Rossi supporters who passionately believe that the gubernatorial election was “stolen” by corrupt King County Democrats.

We are told that Democrats shamefully abused their 2-1 majority on the canvassing board to add, subtract and divine just enough votes to give Christine Gregoire the victory. And yet, the lone Republican on the three-member panel has publicly vouched for the integrity of the process, pointing out that all but 20 of the 1600 ballots before them were decided unanimously, and that he was not always on the losing side of those few split decisions.

We are told that King County Democrats cynically changed the rules of the recount by adding to “the universe of ballots.” And yet Rossi himself gained votes from hundreds of new ballots added in counties he won, while the Supreme Court, the Republican Secretary of State, the Republican King County Prosecutor, and Democratic and Republican county auditors from throughout the state have all affirmed that all these ballots were counted according to the long-standing rules.

And we are told that — as usual — the Democrats have stolen this election by fraudulently counting illegal votes. And yet despite all the insinuation and innuendo, the Republican Party has not set forth a single scrap of evidence of a single fraudulent vote. Whether these baseless allegations come directly from his mouth or not, Rossi has clearly sanctioned a dishonest and disgusting PR campaign cleverly devised to force upon Democrats the impossible task of proving a negative in the court of public opinion.

Now I totally empathize with Republican anger and disappointment… and even their suspicions. They truly believe that Rossi was by far the better candidate for the office, and thus they must find it incomprehensible that Gregoire could legitimately secure a majority of the votes, however slim. And what could be more frustrating than to believe that you have won, only to see victory slip away in the final days of the final recount?

But just because your party leaders tell you that Democrats are all a bunch of liars and thieves who would do anything to hold onto power — and just because it may be comforting to believe this in your moment of political grief — doesn’t make it true.

The truth is, parents sometimes lie to their children. Sometimes because we believe it is best for them, and sometimes out of, um… administrative convenience. And the truth is, politicians — or at least their spokespeople — sometimes lie to their supporters.

Now I’m not saying that Democrats aren’t just as likely to believe what they want to believe. But when the Rossi campaign tells us that when all the legitimate votes are counted, when the law is applied equally, when the corruption is uncovered, and the fraudulent ballots cast aside, that Dino Rossi will be governor… it is the political equivalent of telling us that there is a Santa Claus.

Believe it if you want, if that’s what makes you feel better. But it doesn’t make it true.


  1. 1

    Josefie spews:

    For the official record: If I find out I’m being told to sell a sack of lies – which I doubt – I will be awfully tempted to sue Mary Lane, Dino Rossi and Chris Vance. So should Dean Logan, if he’s a man.

  2. 2

    bby spews:

    Is there some place we can send winger R’s what Santa promises folks who misbehave? Such as in sticks, rocks, ashes and torn clothing? Reading the UndoneSound posts, the moralizing Santa would not be happy.

    Ho,ho,ho – you need to tell Dino to get a stiff drink or two (rum toddies are OK) and concede.

  3. 3

    jcricket spews:

    Josef – I suggest you start looking at what you’ve already been told that’s been shown to be false.

    First, The Supreme Court made it a point to state that while the Republicans claimed that KC had ballot security problems with the 735 ballots, they had presented no evidence to support those claims. If Republicans had real evidence of ballot security problems, they would have presented it at that hearing, because it would have guaranteed KC would have been denied the right to count those ballots (not to mention shooting KCs credibility to shreds). If the allegations were as specific to ballots and registrations as you stated, it would have been all that much easier to provide the courts with a “smoking gun”. But since the Republicans chose not to present any evidence when it would help them most, it stands to reason that they had no evidence. The best they could come up with is an old memo, which they trotted out to the media to little effect.

    Second, the Republican on the KC canvassing board, Dan Satterberg, pointed out that there were fewer than 20 contested (2-1 decisions) ballots out of the 1600 the board agreed on unanimously. And he wasn’t always in the minority when deciding on the contested ballots. If he saw any fraud happening, even with those remaining 20, don’t you think he would have pointed it out? He’s a Republican, as partisan as the Democrats on the KC canvassing board. I guarantee he’s talked to Chris Vance and Mary Lane between November 2nd and now.

    Third, every single ballot being counted was observed by the media, Republicans and Democrats, in addition to being cross-checked by election workers. If there were real evidence of fraud, the media would have seen it, or one of those observers would come forward, because that’s why they were there.

    Start with these, and you’ll see that the other claims fall apart due to a similar lack of evidence. It’s only easy to keep believing if you deny everything that’s been shown so far.

  4. 4

    jcricket spews:

    BTW Goldy, excellent analogy with this post. It reminds me of the fact that Bush supporters are (were) far less likely to know what their candidate actually stood for, and far more likely to believe falsehoods (e.g. about Iraq, Saddam, etc.) than Kerry supporters.

    Three out of four self-described supporters of President George W. Bush still believe that pre-war Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or active programs to produce them and that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein provided “substantial support” to al Qaeda, according to a new survey released here Thursday.

    Moreover, as many or more Bush supporters hold those beliefs today than they did several months ago, before the publication of a series of well-publicized official government reports that debunked both notions.
    The survey also found a major gap between Bush’s stated positions on a number of international issues and what his supporters believe Bush’s position to be. A strong majority of Bush supporters believe, for example that the president supports a range of international treaties and institutions which is actually on record as opposing.

  5. 5

    jcricket spews:

    It’s the phenomen known as “cognitive dissonance” – when you supress awareness of facts when they contradict closely held beliefs, because you’re afraid it would hurt to much to reconsider.

    More from the same article:

    “To support the president and to accept that he took the U.S. to war based on mistaken assumptions,” said Kull, “likely creates substantial cognitive dissonance and leads Bush supporters to suppress awareness of unsettling information about pre-war Iraq.”

    Kull added that this “cognitive dissonance” could also help explain other remarkable findings in the survey, particularly with respect to Bush supporters’ misperceptions about the president’s own positions.

    In particular, majorities or Bush supporters incorrectly assumed that he supports multilateral approaches to various international issues, including the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) (69 percent), the land mine treaty (72 percent), and the Kyoto Protocol to curb greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to global warming (51 percent).

    In August, two thirds of Bush supporters also said they believed that Bush supported the International Criminal Court (ICC), although in the latest poll, that figure dropped to a 53 percent majority, even though Bush explicitly denounced the ICC in the most widely watched nationally televised debate of the campaign in late September.

    In all of these cases, majorities of Bush supporters said they favored the positions that they imputed, incorrectly, to Bush.

    Large majorities of Kerry supporters, on the other hand, showed they knew both their candidate’s and Bush’s positions on the same issues.

    Bush supporters were also found to hold misperceptions regarding international support for the president and his policies.

  6. 7

    Josefie spews:

    I’m working on a reply to you jcricket – point-by-point and Goldy will be verifying that the hyperlinks I just posted aren’t spam…

  7. 8

    Erik spews:

    As you enjoy Christmas, just imagine:

    Somewhere in a boiler room in Bellevue there are diagrams posted all over the walls with Vance, national republican operatives, BIA representatives chain smoking trying to figure out out to overturn Gregoire’s victory.

    There is certainly a dartboard with Gregoire’s picture.

    New bonuses are being promised to staff in order to keep everyone working.

    Staff are being taught new words such as “disenfranchise” and to say them with a serious face.

    There are flow charts strewn everywhere with piles of crumpled papers strew around the room, filled with abandoned campaign strategies.

  8. 9

    Josefie spews:

    Comment by Erik— 12/25/04 @ 5:23 pm

    Well, you missed a few things so here’s my proposed corrections:

    Somewhere in a boiler room in Bellevue there are diagrams posted all over the walls with Vance, national and state republican operatives, and Marummy chain smoking and chewing on candy & TUMS trying to figure out out to take back what is rightfully theirs.

    There is certainly a dartboard with Gregoire’s picture. And Paul Berendt’s. And Dean Logan’s. And Larry Phillips’s. And Paul Huinnenkins…

    New bonuses are being promised to staff in order to keep everyone working. Which are being rejected – they’re patriots who won’t back down.

    Staff are being briefed as to the evidence for a new election.

    There are flow charts strewn everywhere with piles of crumpled papers strew around the room, filled with abandoned campaign strategies. And an overflowing recycle bin, coherent with Dino Rossi’s commitment to some, bordering on the token, environmentalism.

  9. 10

    bby spews:

    Josey – Hey DUDE– JCricket is too kind. FIRST, in the second Supreme case, just as noted here days ago, King County clearly explained their security including locked access, wire cages and valuts and armed King Co deputies at the doors and in the rooms—24 hours. Impressive secutiry and their attorney a senior prosecuter, explained yes a cart with ballots had been left out overninght, but it was under guard by the armed deputy nearby all the while. R’s FAILED- utterly failed- to perfect any argument on the security of ballots- just silly, vapid accusations by nutwings.

    ON CAMERA- the major counting of contested ballots was on publid cable live TV, over 1,600 ballots by the King Co. Canvassing board.You could see that most decisions were 100 per cent. Joseph, for you and any orther R fraud holdouts, Diane Tebelius, the lead attorney of the R’s was on camera standing right behind the counting panel with an excellent view of EVERY ballot. She was taking notes, and was interacting with a few remarks, laughed at a joke, SHE was there doing MORE than coldly waching. Did she see GREVIOUS fraud, obviously not. Partisian trained attorney observer, seemed very happy- First witness FOR the Dems in any conest.–her deposition-will be embarassing to the R’s, to say nothing of 7 hours of live videobboadcast to the public.

    Joseph- put you passion to better use. It is over. Finished. Do the right thing and tell Dino to concede- he will be viewed as the sorest loser in history, friend of Linda Tripp and Tanya Harding.

  10. 11

    jim p spews:

    LOL< Josef does not have the ability to concede. His parents never taught that tactic to him. Feel pity for him. He has got to be the lonliest boy in the world during this holiday season. He probably already took his tree down and is planning his very nearsighted future at the present time

  11. 13

    Jim King spews:

    “Cognitive dissonance”- it is really eating one’s own bullshit, and the left is just as guilty as the right. I could pop off the easy comeback- “Studies show that random choosing gives a Bush supporter only a fifty-fifty chance of being right about the President’s positions on issues, whereas a Kerry supporter has a one hundred percent chance of correctly choosing his or her candidate’s position on any given issue. The problem for the Kerry supporter is deciding WHICH of the candidate’s positions on the issue has been chosen- Monday’s, Wednesday’s, or Friday’s…” Okay, I popped off…

  12. 14

    Chuck spews:

    Three out of four self-described supporters of President George W. Bush still believe that pre-war Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or active programs to produce them and that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein provided “substantial support” to al Qaeda, according to a new survey released here Thursday.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Uh they captured 2 al quaida terrorists in Iraq today….

  13. 15

    bby spews:

    Chuck – are you old evough to remember Viet Nam – I was just a kid, but from all that I heard. on the long erm it was all hell hole.

    Isn’t this a bigger hell hole. BUT with an oceean of proven oil?

    Always surprised that at lest one of the
    Bush babies didn’t enlist.

  14. 16

    jim p spews:

    That would be an impossibility bby. The Bushkins were always well coddled and protected by daddy. The literal silver spoon. Given grades and business to bankrupt. The Saudi Royals always gave a very nice helping hand to the two stooge boys.

  15. 17

    WesternFlyer spews:

    Goldy, time to move on. I think this election is done. It is time to focus on issues like Gregoire’s transition, her inaugural, the way she will work with the legislature, the budget, the race for Cantwell’s seat in 2006, whether Rob McKenna will be able to mount a credible challenge to Gregoire in 2008, etc.

  16. 18

    Josef spews:

    Comment by WesternFlyer— 12/26/04 @ 6:45 am

    You’re a bit fast, cowboy… We’ve still got the court challenge. GO DINO GO!

  17. 19

    DCF spews:

    You know, depending on which gubernatorial candidate was ahead, I could go back through the threads and switch the names on all the posts, and I wouldn’t be able to tell who was on what side! Let this thing run its course to the bitter end, that’s DEMOCRACY!

  18. 20

    Chuck spews:

    Chuck – are you old evough to remember Viet Nam – I was just a kid, but from all that I heard. on the long erm it was all hell hole.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Damn right I remember Veitnam, I also remember the uncle that I used to have that was drafted and went to Vietnam…he was only a few years older than myself…got a dose of agent orange. He died with Bill Clintons military denying it was agent orange problems….till 6 months after he died….

  19. 21

    jim p spews:

    Bill Clinton’s Army? I believe if you check your history dates you will find that Vietnam was about 20 years before Bill Clinton was President. Maybe you mean the US Army ?

  20. 22

    Rudy spews:

    Since we’re on the subject of people’s perceptions here – has anyone seen any recent polling numbers about what the campaigns should do now – for example, % of people who believe Rossi should concede or contest or whatever. Surely the campaigns have been running questions, do we have any results in hand? I’ve been surprised at how cautious G has been since winning the hand count, though I probably shouldn’t have been given her campaign style. Wonder if any of that has to do with having numbers showing people aren’t ready to accept her victory quite yet.

  21. 24

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Chuck- does the fact that your uncle got screwed over back then give a reson to do the same thing in this era?…. That is my point. The grunts die, the Pentagon chiefs are safe, comand mistakes are blamed on the lowest rank, and in 2004 the rich kids go to parties and improve their sex lives– starting the draft will help end the war machine.

    This war stands out– with bluster and propaganda, and bad planning, bad strategy, coverups—all over the map.

    The Humvee and body armor scandals are symbols of the rich sending the poor to war. Their kids are not dying, very abstract for the top echelon folks who pantomime their great support, and can’t lift the phone and yell at some general to get that problem fixed, NOW.

    Makes me cry, as an American and as a Navy vet.

  22. 25

    Goldy spews:

    Goldy, time to move on. I think this election is done.

    I’d like to move on, but remember, part of my responsibility as the number one liberal political blogger in WA state (and thanks to you all, that’s what has quickly become) is to counter the spin coming from the conservative and neo-con bloggers. Gregoire’s perceived legitimacy, and the perceived integrity of the entire electoral process are still at stake here.

    So I hope you’ll all forgive if I keep beating this dead horse.

  23. 26

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Given the still falling– fallout from this election cycle and the thorns that cover the floor of the legislature, just waiting, should be a lot of material. Have enjoyed this blog- and thanks to you Goldy.

  24. 27

    Rudy spews:

    You’re not beating a dead horse, all kinds of things still at play in the election. But, the parties know more about how public opinion has shaped up than bloggers do. imho Gregoire has lost a good opportunity in the last few days to cement things in her favor, it seems once again D’s lag behind R’s in the framing game.

  25. 28

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Don’t agree – let squeeky clean Sam Reed certify the election – the neutral process – then All Dems incl. Gregoire can exalt with great energy.

    After the end of process certification, Gregoire can announce her cabinet, the victory parties, and dwell at length on the inagurtion, and start of the legislature.

    The wait seems long to us- lovers of politics-, but the public I think wants a break, and a return to other news. And the pressure for Rossi to resign is mounting.

    Christms-New Year is a bonus for her. Read USound, they are now pounding Reed since they know he will finalize this election And Rossi will be in a bind not Gregoire……each time he, Rossi, rambles about what he is going to do next, he loses. Remember he is the one who said he could make decisions for he state…..oh, sure.

  26. 30

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Important to remember – media value of Gov elect- VERY high.

    News value of Dino- sinks every day, and will reach the who cares level quickly- almost there..

    Up and to – any contest notice, or real- new issues news.

    Rossi/Vance had a lot of free face time last two weeks- bye, bye – old news and very boring —same old rants and hyperbole—only his partisains want to see more…..after the certification.

  27. 31

    Rudy spews:

    Bob, when you say ‘only his partisans want to see more’ and ‘pressure for Rossi to concede is mounting’ – on what do you base that? Seen any polling on what people are really thinking? I looked at Times, PI and had a look at TNT, and I found no editorials calling for concession, letters to editor were stacked for pro-R side, only news article I saw (in PI) is about continuing process for contests and such, not about how pressure is mounting for concession. Lloking at the evidence thus far I can’t say the PR trend line is what the D’s would like to see.

  28. 33

    Robert from Seattle spews:

    Ahh, and Rudy, you’re wrong. TNT (Rossi endorsers) and PI have both editorialized for concession. As has Columbian (Rossi endorsers) and Ken Schram (Rossi voter). Oh, and Oregonian. And that’s just what I could find in a quick 15 minute search.

  29. 34

    Rudy spews:

    Robert, thank you for pointing out editorials – hadn’t seen them, and yes there is some evidence (though note PI almost calls for immediate concession but not quite). However, those have more to do with preexisting opinions on the boards than anything G has done.

    D’s should hope G has started to learn essentials of shaping opinion by picking an effective message early and delivering it well. In other words, leading. I was hoping to see that on display since King County returns, but haven’t. It was a huge weakness in her campaign, and if not fixed will continue to be a problem for her and the D’s as they try to govern and set up for 08.

  30. 35

    Jim King spews:

    Rudy- not since Al Rosellini was Governor have the Democrats of this state been able to maintain full control of the Legislature and the Governor’s office for more than two years. During Governor Al’s second term, they lost the House to the Republican’s and disaffected Democrats in 1963; Two years into Governor Ray’s term, they lost the House to split control (49-49). In the third year of Governor Gardner’s first term, they lost control of the budget to a coalition in the Senate, followed by complete loss of the Senate that fall in a special election- the Senate remained R throughout the rest of the Gardner Administration.

    Two years into Mike Lowry’s term as Governor the House went R- the Senate followed two years later, and Gary Locke had Democratic control for only one year of his eight- 2002. After one year of complete Democratic control, the Republicans took the Senate.

    Not a good track record for Democrats, and the disharmony has already begun…

  31. 36

    Rudy spews:

    Getting back to Goldy’s post, she needs to help herself by more effectively shaping perception that her election is legitimate and true (and those on her side would do better to do this than argue how R’s myths are NOT true). Perhaps Bob’s right and it’ll happen enough in time, but it sure seems she could be more effective at it now. When she talks about how his election was some paragon of democracy, I’ve gotta think that makes even her supporters wince. Anyway, holiday duties call I’m outta here

  32. 37

    Josef spews:

    Okay, – the Dinocrat, anti-Eyman blog – has been tracking the news since the blank ballot incident in mid-November…

    And yes, Robert From Seattle is correct. Those papers have whined for a concession. Sorry, but Governor-elect Dino Rossi (no concession) could care less for newspaper editorial boards… and more for the people.

    GO ROSSI GO! Save Our State!

  33. 38

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    I agree that both Kerry and Gregoire did a poor job of message.

    Gregoire also did a media based campaign with little neighborhood grass roots organizing. Had she found the 40 most democrat communiites in the state and invesed 200.000.- the money would have come back in increased donations, and she would have had a 10,000. vote lead on election night.

    Work your base- the consultants know that is the thing. Then they buy media because they suck up 15 per cent off the top for the media buys. AND her commercials were mostly horrible to boot. Shrill, demandiny, not clear, little Washington grounding, etc. Among the worst I have seen in years.

  34. 40

    Josef spews:

    Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/26/04 @ 1:08 pm

    Yeah, and they had a candidate who didn’t share most grassroot Democratic party values like transparent government, clean elections, respect for whistleblowers, helping students (which you really can’t do by standing mute during an illegal teachers’ strike at Marysville for 49 days) and fighting racism (hard to do being a President of a racist sorority).

    In fact, the last one made her have to steal the election because the African-American vote wasn’t with her according to the Seattle Weekly.

  35. 41

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Josef – are you still fighting the cold war? What gives with all the cutsie- silly Slavic names…made up for what….

    Are you suggesting that Josef – in not American? USA spells it Joseph. Get a life. Get some consistency.

    One of my grandfathers was named Pipinich. Something wrong with Slavic names……you sound stupid as hell……Yoseph

  36. 42

    bj-too spews:

    can we re-district now? I mean, after all, if we control the
    house, senate, and the governor’s office?

    (in my What Would Tom Dely Do persona).

  37. 43

    Jim King spews:

    Oh, bj-too- we have redistricting by bipartisan commission here, unlike Texas… Although you can watch the redistricting of the King County Council currently going on- and shrinking the Council by four seats… Blood on the floor, knives in backs- great drama…

  38. 44

    Josef spews:

    Comment by Bob from Boeing— 12/26/04 @ 1:24 pm

    It’s the Ukraine theme. Get with it. We are coming for you, Gregovych! We are coming! You are going! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out!
    (Apologies to my hero US Senator John F. Kerry!)

  39. 46

    Josef spews:

    Oh and I just checked the Cool News Network (CNN) – Viktor Yushchenko is having a blowout with 40 percent of the precincts reporting in!

    My oh my, I guess Santa does exist!
    My oh my, I guess there are miracles!

  40. 47

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    How interesting that you proudly wear the badge of the appropriate description Horses Ass. The braying here is really quite amusing.

    Yes, you surely can loudly and proudly claim that your candidate stole the election fair and square, but don’t make the mistake of sanctimoniously screaming (as asses are so very often inclined to do) that she has a “mandate” as nearly 70% of the voters disagree.
    It’s quite revealing about the ASSES mindset that they are often even worse winners than they are losers – and in this governors “election” you seem to be both. Can someone explain how the ASSES seem to have missed the lesson in graciousness or is it just part of the ASS culture to be incredibly hateful, meanspirited and rude even in [stolen] triumph?

  41. 48

    Bob from Boeing spews:

    Yosephich – YOU get with it. You are simply insulting people to boost some hole in you thinking. Too bad.

    I respect people by using their names. Kinda like basic in a civilized country where your mama and poppa taught you some decorum and manners.

    YOU get with it, Joseppollywog.

  42. 49

    bby spews:

    Stealing the election blather was last weeks’s propaganda from R’s nutwings. Get real. Time for Rossi to concede……then PROVE fraud if he can.

  43. 50

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Interesting that you would focus on the stolen part and not argue being proud to be an ASS and/or the hateful demeanor gennerally shown by ASSES. I bet it feels good to be secure in your identity.

    The fallacy (look it up) in you r last sentence is way to obvious.

  44. 51

    bby spews:

    No – just simple logic (do you know the word?) —-lots of bellowing and shrieking by you, Vance and other nutwings. Don’t fly no more. Concede your defeat.

    As the old saying goes, “put up or shut up”- from my sainted

    And the real sublimation (look it up)- here- is the secret thirll you get from muttreing ass, asd, ass – over and over. Really it is OK, need to deal with your sexual repressions.

  45. 52

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    I’ll remind you of what I said about SORE winners and their distinct lack of grace and manners. I will also note that it is YOUR group that proudly refers to themselves as the shit end of a horse as opposed to those of us with self-respect who would never demean ourselves by referring to ourselves with pejoratives. However in referring to yourselves as asses I will allow you points for truth in advertising.

  46. 53

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Also, I’m wondering, bby, have you ever learned the glory of a complete sentence or do you just think in fragments?

  47. 54

    bby spews:

    Hey Dude– still need to get over it. You lost. Rossi is toast. Need to concede.

    PROVE your claims, whatever they’re called, Sore loser Bossi has just a few more days, then Media will go elswhere. Called old news problem (look it up in a Journalism Text).

    On the the next issue. ELECTION is over.

  48. 55

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Hey Dude– still need to get over it. You lost. Rossi is toast. Need to concede.

    PROVE your claims, whatever they’re called, Sore loser Bossi has just a few more days, then Media will go elswhere. Called old news problem (look it up in a Journalism Text).

    On the the next issue. ELECTION is over.

    Comment by bby— 12/26/04 @ 6:13 pm

    There, but for the grace of God and the brains he bestowed upon me, go I. Thank you Lord.

  49. 56

    bby spews:

    Are we talking about the ending of a close election, or about stylebook isssues on a blogg chat space? Gee- whiz, back to topic.

    Need to give it up. Save your venom for another fight.

  50. 57

    bj-too spews:

    aw shucks, we [democrats] wouldn’t get anything out of
    re-districting in Washington? Why doesn’t it surprise me
    that we actually try to do things fairly here.


  51. 58

    bby spews:

    Brains? Huh – I think you lack any real expertise about your own ass. Let alone any others.

  52. 59

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Ah yes, bby, the PeeWee Herman defense: “I know you are but what am I”. You learned it so well. Now try to master the art of complete sentences. Really, it’s quite easy.

  53. 60

    bby spews:

    I will post a complete sentence just for you.

    Sir, I (subject) suggest (verb) that you suggest to your defeated candidate, Mr. Rossi, that he conce the election on upcoming Monday.

    To save his political ass.

  54. 61

    Josef spews:

    I respect people by using their names. … Joseppollywog.

    Bob from Boeing – what do you do exactly for Boeing? I might want to fly Airbus next time…

  55. 62

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    I suggest you use spell check/grammar check BEFORE you post.

    I’m a bit confused as to why you Asses are so defensive about your successful coup. Could it be that despite your noisy protestations, the public, while holding their collective noses and accepting that Gregoire will probably be the [illegitimate] governor, we ALL know the truth about how that particular victory was achieved?

    I really do consider it quite interesting that you are all so very concerned with how quickly you can convince Governor-elect Rossi to concede. Perhaps you are just a tad bit afraid that time and the light of day will amend the facts to reflect unfavorably upon your candidate and the shenanigans that are allowing her to just about claim victory. It makes one sit up and wonder what exactly makes you so afraid. Could it be that you are worried the Rossi campaign has learned a few victory tricks from Paul Berendt and King County?

    And while I know you are hoping beyond hope that Governor-elect Rossi accepts the your advice, I suspect he will rely on the wisdom of those whose opinions he respects.

  56. 63

    bby spews:

    Do you- “ALL know the truth” —– you are so full of HOOEY – put it on the table. Who comitted fraud? Where are the cheaters? Let’s get them jailed, quickly.

    Mistakes a plenty, in all counties, rectified (spelled correctly) by the lawful, orderly hand recount. Closely obsrved and secured.

    Look the beast in its horrid lidded eyes- Rossi-Zilla– and tell it NO.

    I think us leftist iberals who run this state, at this point, are just tired of all the old hack propaganda you nutwing R’s have thrown for weeks.

    Too much. Over. Le fin. Il’est fini. Yes, dead dog beaten at this point. Predict concession by Tue…Rossi needs to save his political ass and asses for another run…..

  57. 64

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Aww, bby, feeling a bit defensive are we? And amusingly, first you predicted concession on Monday and now you’re up to Tuesday! Working your way up to NO concession at all?

    Once again, “while I know you are hoping beyond hope that Governor-elect Rossi accepts the your advice, I suspect he will rely on the
    wisdom of those whose opinions he respects.”

  58. 65

    Josef spews:

    Well, my advice to Governor-elect Rossi is going to be this:

    a) Xerox Yushchenko’s winning strategy: Act as if you won, issue decrees and get your cabinet together. Oppose Gregovych (a.k.a. Gregovich) at every (and I mean every Urge civil disobedience as much as possible! Especially boycotts of big Gregovych donors!

    b) Produce a bulletproof dossier that has a big bouquet of appendices of evidence – and as you let Marummy (who is almost universally loved by the troops and the press for among other things, her integrity and grit), you tell your people to leak bits and pieces to keep buggering on.

    c) Mobilize the Dinocrats: This is going to be critical. We Dinocrats are the real knife in the drawer – use us. Send us. Just keep your pledges when you’re in the Governor’s chair!

    There you go… Save Our State!

    NO BACKDOWN, JUST BACKBONE (with thanks to Tony Blair)!

  59. 66

    Josef spews:

    Well, my advice to Governor-elect Rossi is going to be this:

    a) Xerox Yushchenko’s winning strategy: Act as if you won, issue decrees and get your cabinet together. Oppose Gregovych (a.k.a. Gregovich) at every (and I mean every) turn! Urge civil disobedience as much as possible! Especially boycotts of big Gregovych donors!

    b) Produce a bulletproof dossier that has a big bouquet of appendices of evidence – and as you let Marummy (who is almost universally loved by the troops and the press for among other things, her integrity and grit), you tell your people to leak bits and pieces to keep buggering on.

    c) Mobilize the Dinocrats: This is going to be critical. We Dinocrats are the real knife in the drawer – use us. Send us. Just keep your pledges when you’re in the Governor’s chair!

    There you go… Save Our State!

    NO BACKDOWN, JUST BACKBONE (with thanks to Tony Blair)!

  60. 67

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    You may want to pay a bit more attention to your spelling/grammar there, bby. Yes, I know you looked up rectified all by yourself but really, obsrved and iberals? Please learn that grammar is indeed your friend: I think us leftist iberals who run this state, “I think WE leftists…” I could go on and on (and on and on) but you’ll learn better what you learn for yourself. Poor grammar is a reflection on your [dubious] credibility

  61. 68

    bby spews:

    Some would say his concession is his last media exposure of the season…. After Thursday, who cares? Old news.

    After Sec. of State Sam Reed certifies the state wide results, Rossi as demure virgin neophyte or shinning bombast Zilla, makes no differece, he will be no news at all.

    Gregoire vs. Rossi is about to be ended with finality. Who will care what Dino says, except the R nutwings?

  62. 69

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    Well gosh… you don’t think Sam Reed could possibly have left town and deferred his certification to give the Rossi campaign time to reflect on the legal issues and options do you? Or would that be just too darn close to liberal democrat tactics?

  63. 70

    Chuck spews:

    Time for Rossi to concede……then PROVE fraud if he can. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Typical backwards liberal thinking here….if a guy takes a hostage in a robbery, do you let him go then figure out if he is guilty???? I think not!

  64. 71

    bby spews:

    Mr.Reed went on Holiday vacation, why not? I am sure he has some nice kids and grand kids somewhere.

    Yes I know Skamania county canvassing board is talking to Rossi advocates, great place to hold a press conference about massive uncounted votes and fraud. Pe El is the county seat.

    Possible internation media play — just the novelety of it all. Pissing and moaning in Pe El. Nice rhythm – perhaps a country western tune there, but I will leave that up to you.

    Chuck – you are the accuser. Burden of proof is yours. PROVE it.

  65. 73

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:


    Mr.Reed went on Holiday vacation, why not?

    Of course he did. Don’t be at all worried that a Republican could be capable of that particular brand of liberal duplicity. Don’t lose any sleep at all over it.

  66. 74

    motorhomeman spews:

    I’m back from my retreat in Mexico.
    I see a lot has happened the past week.
    Fear Not—It ain’t over ’til the fat lady sings and she hasn’t even warmed up yet!!!
    1) Rossi couldn’t do much until he was behind in the count.
    2) The King County voter database is a disaster. I truly understand why Larry Phillips was angry his vote wasn’t counted. His signature card was on the Sec. of State voter registration system but not King Co. He was disenfranchised. However, Mr. Phillips ought to feel equally outraged along with all legitimate voters that many illegitimate votes were counted….felons, forged signatures, multiple registrations etc. etc. All this will now come out.\
    Dean Logan may talk a good game…but he failed miserably in the management of the King County voter registration database.

    Read Postman’s article in the P-I today.
    He has a handle on where this is headed.
    Mr. Logan will be shown to be inept.
    Mr. Berendt will be shown to be the deliverer of illegitimate votes.
    Just watch Goldy.

  67. 76

    motorhomeman spews:

    OOPS! I meant for all of you to read Postman’s article in the SEATTLE TIMES TODAY. Pay close attention to the part which explains under which circumstances a judge can SET ASIDE an election. Essentially will be putting the Election on trial.
    Any reasonable person would have to suspect with so many King County errors in processing legitimate votes due to database and human error, there are likely to be nearly as many errors in processing illegitimate votes.
    Dean Logan wanted to quickly count and co-mingle all questionable votes so they could not be retrieved and re-visited later. Clever but obvious.
    Larry Phillips signature card not being scanned into King COunty system is just one of many examples of questionable database management practices.
    The Supreme Court will decide who the new Governor is…or more likely they will eventually set this election aside.
    Too many “errors”, “neglect” and outright fraud to ignore.

  68. 77

    jim p spews:

    LMAO at that nut Joseph;;;;;Bob from Boeing – what do you do exactly for Boeing? I might want to fly Airbus next time…

    Comment by Josef— 12/26/04 @ 6:37 pm

    I seriously doubt if you dearest josef even have the ability to fly a kit. If so then maybe you should dedicate yourself to that task, as you are incredibly inept at trying to state your “Facts”

    ps. buy a nice one josef…..but you will have to pay atleast $4.oo for it. maybe out of your budget as most of your money goes into hot air and running your mouth

  69. 78

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    How does one fly a “kit” exactly? And how much does hot air cost vs cold air? Who knew it cost money to ‘run’ your mouth? WHEW… talk about mixing your metaphors! Poor jim seems to be as confused about hte English language as bby …unless jim IS bby.

  70. 79

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    HaHa! Yep, I’m typing challenged and I do see it. Don’t waste your energy pointing it out.

  71. 80

    motorhomeman spews:

    Focus my friend. Read Postman’s article in today’s Seattle TImes.
    ERRORS, NEGLECT & FRAUD…burden of proof on Rossi. Doable.

  72. 81

    Josef spews:

    Comment by jim p— 12/26/04 @ 10:26 pm

    Oh, you’re the one also heckling me on my blog…

    Don’t worry – when my brother and I fly his Christmas plane, I will post a picture on my blog.

  73. 82

    bby spews:

    Mr. C – take your meds – it is over. Wild accusations from ranting, on the brink sore losers is not what the RCW contemplates.

    I don’t know the cost of the US Supremes doing another partisain political decision, but I do not think Rossi has any collateral for that game. Small potatoes.

    Repeat- It is over. Concede. Get some rest and take your downers, please.

    Along with our friends- free floating virus batches, the typing impaired will inherit the earth. I was an A+ student, but never could type.

  74. 83

    bby spews:

    And Mr.- Can’tFindMyAssTonightCauseMommyRunsMyLife—-bby is only bby- and jimp is eminent in local sniffy grad school circles. Are you from this state? Or just blogbagger from Alabama?

  75. 84

    Goldy spews:

    Welcome back Motormouth. How was Mexico?

    The problem with contesting an election based on the number of errors corrected in King County and elsewhere, is that A) the error rate was actually way below what is typical of elections (according to CalTech/MIT), and B) it would mean that no close election could be considered legitimate. Ever.

    It is not enough to simply show that that there were errors. They must show fraud or misconduct or dereliction of duty. They must also find enough specific errors or illegal ballots in the recount to change the results of the election.

    Now perhaps the R’s have hard evidence of illegal votes, or misconduct on the part of election officials… but my guess is that if they did, they would have gone public with them for PR purposes. So I’m thinking that they skip the contest provision in state law, and go straight to the federal courts.

  76. 85

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS spews:

    How cutely typical (and unoriginal) to resort to name calling.

    I’m not the one calling you an ass. Your blog hero, the uberleader of your King County Commie Youth Group has done that (…sound familiar?.

    I’ve never been to Alabama, but I wonder what kind of racist prejudice you have against their fine citizens who appear, unlike home sweet home Washington, to be able to hold clean, honest elections.

    And, for your information, my Mother died too young at 73 and unexpectedly in what shoul have been a routine surgery to repair her heart valve Tampa Fla. on Sept 10, 2002. I strongly suggest you call YOUR mother and show her a bit of respect.

  77. 86

    Goldy spews:

    HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS… all I can say is… huh? Do you totally and completely lack any sense of irony?

    This is a liberal blog, the openly acknowledged purpose of which is liberal spin. But the calls for concession, at least from me, should be viewed as an ironic comeback to Rossi’s calls for Gregoire to concede, when the process clearly was not over. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.

  78. 87

    bby spews:

    Sorry – did not mean to impune mom. May she rest.

    Talked to my mommie today, the best in the world, thanks for the bonding advice.

    Alabama is the pit of American Democrcy. Still run by some new version of the KKK. Failed to delete the old Confederacy stuff from their constitution this year. I would bet a thousand $$$- that if they could vote in segregation and stop inter-racial marriage – well, they would. How is it racist to reject the racism of the Old South doctrinaire holdouts?…….

    You have it- Ass Backwards.

  79. 88

    Jim King spews:

    Goldy- I would disagree that the R’s need to show fraud or misconduct or dereliction of duty. I would agree that they need to show sufficient errors- not fraud, just errors- or illegal ballots such that an impartial judge- and the State Supreme Court- would find sufficient doubt to vacate the election.

    I do not believe anyone can prove fraud in this election. I have repeatedly said we have tested to destruction our election system, and if it was a car it would be at the top of Consumer Reports for safety. The fraud claim has been, and remains, a non-starter.

    Errors? Out of almost three million ballots cast, I would not be surprised to find demonstrable error sufficient to vacate the election. I am NOT predicting that such will be demonstrated- I just believe it easily lies within the realm of possibility.

    But it does require very hard evidence of the specific votes improperly cast and counted, or properly cast but not counted.

    Such evidence has yet to be presented.

    And I see you’ve been reading Foulkes v. Hayes…

    As for options in federal court- I doubt equal protection will be sufficient, but I see indications that the groundwork for that case is being laid. The GOP cannot go to the federal courts on equal protection without first going to the counties seeking correction of the “error”, and they have been a might fumbling on that error- hopefully they’ve done a better job of vetting their evidence.

    The better hope for the GOP in the federal courts will be the military vote, but again, better evidence is needed. Much better evcidence. They may get help from the Bush Administration on that one, but only if the concerns actually translate into provable facts.

    This state would probably benefit from those options being pursued, in that claims of fraud would be shot down, and error would actually get some judicial measurement. And all fifty states would get a warning shot across the bow about enfranchising our uniformed personnel. We would also get a stamp of approval on this election, or a new one…

    I’m not sure the GOP wants a stamp of approval on the election- not just for this immediate loss, but for the long-term. But the GOP would be better off focusing on the failures to come of the Gregoire Administration and the Democratic Legislature, instead of nursing grievances about the election…

    Whatever course they pursue, they need much better PR than they have had these past two weeks. Rage has affected judgment, just as it did the Democrats nationally these past four years.

    Rage over the last election has never won the next one…

  80. 89

    Jim King spews:

    And for those who want to hold the traditions of the South up as some good thing- the South demonstrated it’s nature when it impeached Sam Houston as Governor of Texas because he would not disavow his oath to the Union.

    And before anyone starts in on me, I have deep Southern roots, though born and raised in this great state (thanks to the Army Air Corps), but I am also proud that my people remained faithful to the Union throughout the Civil War. When we fail to teach history, we fail to teach of the civil war WITHIN the Confederacy during those years.

    But citizens of this state should not be too quick to jump on the South as regards the KKK- they should look to its strength here, in Washington, in years past. Especially its strength in the south of King County. It might explain why a certain Attorney General of this state did not recognize the error of a certain sorority until she had distanced herself a bit from her roots in Auburn…

  81. 90

    motorhomeman spews:

    Hi Goldy–
    An election can be set aside because of ERROR, NEGLECT or WRONGFUL ACT.
    Fraud is one example of a wrongful act. However it is not the only example. The legal definition of FRAUD is very difficult to prove.

    Think about this Goldy..why would Rossi contest an election where he was ahead?? In other words, he would not fight to set aside the election as long as he was ahead. Now he is behind…the strategy changes.
    The Courts will decide this. You are also correct that hard evidence will be required. Why would the R’s reveal any hard evidence until the appropriate people are deposed???
    I believe you will soon see some hard evidence that will make you quite sick to your stomach.
    Dean Logan talks a good does Sam Reed. But neither has done the job in database management that is expected of those in charge of elections. It’s horrible. I now understand why Mr. Cynical made such a huge deal out of Larry Phillips. I mean Phillips signature is scanned in at the Sec of State voter registration database..but not at King County?? And King County would have forwarded it to the Sec. of State. It truly is a prime & highly public example of the King COunty Elections administrative meltdown. There is no doubt that people in King County received and voted ballots that were illegitimate for a variety of reasons. You are is now up to Rossi to bring forth the hard evidence…at least 130 times! Either the R’s have it or they don’t.
    Just for grins Goldy–how would you respond if Paul Berendt brought in 1 or more improper affadavits? I’m not saying that he did…I haven’t seen anything concrete. But if Berendt did bring in fraudulent affadavits after all his crying about “disenfranchising” voters…wouldn’t you be disappointed??

  82. 91

    David spews:

    My goodness, the right wing nuts have all come out tonight. Must be a full moon.

    Mr. HowCanYouBeProudtobeAnASS (hereinafter “ProudASS”) has been particularly vocal this evening. Unfortunately, he (perhaps she?) has not learned that bluster and taunts don’t play that well here, because they don’t contribute to informed debate. Time for a reality check.

    1) ProudASS gets going by demonstrating just how uninformed he is: “How interesting that you proudly wear the badge of the appropriate description Horses Ass.” And later: “it is YOUR group that proudly refers to themselves as the shit end of a horse as opposed to those of us with self-respect who would never demean ourselves by referring to ourselves with pejoratives.”

    Tsk, tsk. You should always read a forum before posting. How embarrassing for you. David “Goldy” Goldstein, who owns this blog, sponsored last year’s initiative to declare Tim Eyman a Horse’s Ass. You can read all about it in the “About ME” link on the upper left of the main page.

    Because you’ve wandered in and shot your mouth off without having a clue, it is you who is looking like a horse’s ass this evening. And if you’re so insecure that you can’t bear to “demean” yourself with a self-deprecating term, you really ought to lighten up.

    2) ProudASS says that “you surely can loudly and proudly claim that your candidate stole the election fair and square, but don’t make the mistake of sanctimoniously screaming (as asses are so very often inclined to do) that she has a “mandate” as nearly 70% of the voters disagree.”

    Ms. Gregoire won the election fair and square, ProudASS, and I haven’t heard anyone claim that she has a mandate, so you’re tilting at windmills (knocking down a straw man, if you prefer that metaphor).

    Note that even without a mandate in his first term, though, George W. Bush pushed the bulk of his agenda through — because he, too, was dealing with a legislature controlled by his own party. Christine doesn’t need a “mandate,” as the Republicans have already shown us.

    3) It seems ProudASS has also missed some of our recent discussions about projection. He brays: “is it just part of the ASS culture to be incredibly hateful, meanspirited and rude even in [stolen] triumph?” and “I’ll remind you of what I said about SORE winners and their distinct lack of grace and manners.”

    I see no sore winners here. No hate, no rudeness — except, that is, from ProudASS and his ilk. Sore losers aplenty, though.

    4) He does get one thing almost right: “accepting that Gregoire will probably be the . . . governor, we ALL know the truth about how that particular victory was achieved?”

    We do. More people voted for her.

    5) Finally, ProudASS thinks that spelling is a proxy for intelligence: “Poor grammar is a reflection on your [dubious] credibility”

    No, poor grammar is a reflection on dubious editing skills. I’m a picky writer myself (so are others here, like Jim King and Goldy), and I don’t enjoy reading badly-written posts either, but I’m not so stuck up that I think people who misspell words and employ imperfect grammar are inferior. Remember, Shakespeare didn’t even spell his *name* consistently.

  83. 93

    Josef spews:

    2 Things:

    1 – ProudAss is mostly ignored by me because the name speaks for itself.
    2 – Comment by Jim King— 12/26/04 @ 11:40 pm – I liked the line about rage. Especially since my guy’s going to Iraq next month instead of the Oval Office…

  84. 94

    motorhomeman spews:

    And the failure of Dean Logan to appropriately maintain the Voter Registration Database is a good example of Neglect. I mean if people that have been dead for several years and death certificates were appropriately filed yet their names were not purged and ballots were issued…isn’t that neglect? And how about failure to purge voters who have moved and the County was notified yet ballots issued and returned…isn’t that neglect?
    Or how about felons registered & voting. Felony convictions are public records and a database easily available. Isn’t failure to purge felons neglect??
    We can wrestle with it here until doomsday.
    Either the R’s have the goods or they don’t. I’m like you Goldy, I’d love to know today. But I don’t. There are legal deadlines. Just watch for Mr. Berendt’s sweaty brow and his BS “passing the buck” on those affadavits he cried over.

  85. 96

    Goldy spews:

    Jim et al… I suppose I mispoke somewhat in terms of what is required to set aside an election. But it’s not enough to show that there were errors. They have to show that there were errors that changed the outcome of the election. For example, if King had refused to count the 735, and Gregoire lost because of it, she might have had sufficient evidence to contest the election.

    But maybe not. Canvassing boards MUST have discretion… else every single ballot could potentially end up being decided by the courts. The canvassing board is allowed to make some erroneous decisions as long as the decision itself was made in good faith and according to the law. The point is, we have an imperfect system. It is not going to count all the votes accurately. It is going to disenfranchise some legitimate voters, and count the votes of some illegal ones. But proving the system is imperfect is not enough to set aside the election, else no election this close (percentage wise) could every be legally certified, because no system is ever going to be perfect enough.

    As to whether the R’s have hard evidence they haven’t shared with the media yet, well… one thing I understand pretty well is PR. If they don’t show us something on Monday it means they don’t have anything to show us on Monday. They gain no legal or PR advantage by holding information like this close to their vest. Sure, they’ll use (u)SP to float all sorts of circumstantial speculation… but if they had hard evidence of at least one illegal ballot, I think we’d know it by now.

  86. 97

    motorhomeman spews:

    You are kind of excited to see the goods, aren’t you? Me too.
    But we all have to face the fact that there are some pretty brilliant legal minds all over this on both sides.
    Goldy, there is no way the R’s would worry about PR over Christmas or between Christmans and New Year’s.
    My guess is they will soon be deposing a lot of Dem operatives and doing a bunch of public records requests (you know public records that have to be released…not hidden from the public as was AG Gregoires propensity).
    You know what history has shown time & time again. The illegal act is bad but the cover-up is worse. I am not a conspiracy theorist. In fact, I believe that if 2 or more people try to cover something up, it usually gets exposed….especially when perjury is explained.

  87. 98

    Jim King spews:

    Goldy- I don’t think we are that far apart. But not every error will have gone, formally, to a canvassing board, and if there are ENOUGH erroneous decisions… Who knows?

    But reveal by Monday?- if I were Rossi, especially after the embarrassments last Thursday, I wouldn’t reveal one iota of evidence until EVERYTHING gathered had been properly vetted, with the sole exception of presentations to whichever canvasing boards meet…

    Sometimes you go cold and quiet and keep everyone guessing…

  88. 99

    motorhomeman spews:

    Goldy–re-read Postman’s entire article from today’s Seattle Times. Doesn’t it appear to you that he might actually know where this is headed? And that perhaps he may have seen some of this hard evidence?
    He is a pretty smart guy but it sure seems like he has some mighty fine insight on complex legal issues. And why would the Times waste so much space on this if they weren’t reasonably sure the story had legs?

  89. 100

    David spews:

    Postman’s article is good, except that it states—falsely—that King County (and only King County) got to reconsider rejected ballots. That’s not what happened; the State Supreme Court ruled that King County could finish counting/rejecting ballots that had not been considered because of a filing error. Other counties did the same. Postman is correct that Republicans “could claim” differential treatment for King County ballots, a possible equal protection violation, but that claim is likely to go nowhere because the facts don’t support the claim.

    And as far as your last statement, the Times is happy to provoke controversy, because it sells newspapers.

  90. 101

    motorhomeman spews:

    I believe the most likely outcome will be the Court will set aside this election because of “neglect, error and wrongful acts”…all of the above IF the R’s come up with at least 130 clear, hard examples of such. Essentially the “disenfranchisement” of legitimate voters by illegitimate voters. The R’s have to put up. but they will do it according to legal timetables rather than our impatience to know.
    Don’t you think it would be fun to watch Berendt and his comrades all deposed and then see if their answers match up with what the R’s have in hand?

  91. 102

    Goldy spews:

    Motor… even if the R’s prove 130 illegal voters — and that is a huge “if” — I don’t know that that is enough to set aside this election. Just because somebody voted illegally, doesn’t mean he voted Democrat (I know that’s a hard concept for some Republicans to understand.) Again, it’s not enough to find errors or fraud… they have to find that it changed the results of the election.

  92. 103

    bby spews:

    Brilliant legal minds on the R side? Where?

    This is not a giant fishing expedition where anyone with a filing fee get to depose all in sight. Elections are very private- great effort to keep them secret in terms of what ballot was cast by whom and who voted for specific candidates.

    Posters on this blog started telling the R’s who kept alledging fraud to come forth- three weeks go. R’s were advised to- report it at once, go to the media, put the bastards in jail, etc.

    Nothing, nothing, nothing.

    Great evidence for brilliant minds to put forth. The Supreme Court, number two hearing,made a very specific finding, cooly but deliberate that such allegations had not been proven in any measure. I think the more brillinat mind were telling the R;s you did not prove your case on those issues and you had a chance.

    There ae some specific time lines in the contest statutes. I’m not sure how that intercects with the actual election date- phase one in Nov, but I don’t think this is a wide open door.

  93. 104

    jcricket spews:

    bby is right. It’s been more than a month since the Republicans started alleging fraud publically. And they’ve never offered any hard evidence. Talk Radio and right-wing blogs have offered one suspicion and accusation after another, which in their mind keep “adding up” – but without evidence they’re just random thoughts, floating in the breeze. And there isn’t a poster on this board who has offered hard evidence of fraud either. Well, I take that back one (two?) people (cynical/motorhomeman) have made many claims to the effect that they’ve seen proof of fraud, but those claims have never gone anywhere beyond this comment section.

    I’m not saying that people like Jim King don’t have good arguments why the Republicans might be able to muster up enough pseudo-evidence to contest the election. But so far they’ve failed to meet even a sliver of the burden of proof in terms of fraud, election stealing, etc. are concerned.

    Christine Rossi is governer-elect, and my prediction is that this Thursday she’ll be certified as governer. Republicans will mount some kind of legal challenge, but be rejected. They will attempt to use that as proof of “liberal activist judges” and be a thorn in the side of Dems for the next 2-4 years (until the next big election). Good strategy for an opposition party.

  94. 105

    motorhomeman spews:

    Either you are the consumate Dem “spinner” or not with it. No need to present proof until you are behind. Face it.

  95. 106

    jcricket spews:

    You’re so wrong it’s laughable. Do basketball teams stop scoring points the minute they get a 2-point lead? Of course not. Do smart politicians stop attacking their opponent just because they’re ahead 3 points in a poll? Of course not. Would the Republicans avoid a chance to prove KC was incompetent? No way.

    The fact is that the Republicans accused KC of handling the 735 735 (and other) ballots insecurely. If they wanted to assure a Rossi victory, they would have offered proof of their accusation during the most recent case in front of the WA Supreme Court. This proof would not only have prevented KC from counting those 735 ballots, but also greatly bolstered their claims of general KC malfeasance. Since they failed to present this evidence when it mattered most (last chance to stop the ballots from being counted was in front of the WA State Supreme Court), the Repubs obviously didn’t have the evidence.

    Yes, both sides are spinning this election. But the Repubs are intent on spinning mere accusations and speculation into “proof” of fraud. No need to spin if you had the facts on your side.

  96. 107

    Chuck spews:

    Motor… even if the R’s prove 130 illegal voters – and that is a huge “if” – I don’t know that that is enough to set aside this election.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    If you won two counts then lost one by 130….it should be proof enough.

  97. 108

    jcricket spews:

    Chuck – as Goldy has pointed out (and the Times pointed out today), this isn’t “best 2 out of 3″. The fact that Rossi came out ahead on two machine counts means only that he won two machine counts. Just like Gregoire won a hand recount. And according to state law, the hand recount is definitive.

    Sure, the Lakers were up most of the game against the Heat, but that’s enough enough to convince me that the Heat cheated in their win. The basketball rules call for overtime when the score is tied, and state law allows for a hand recount when the candidate is willing to pay for it or the vote count is close enough (i.e. if the first count had shown a Rossi 42-point margin, the second count would have run by hand).

    Rossi lost in overtime, just like the Lakers. Tough, close loss. Evenly played games, but there’s one winner and one loser, at least as far as this contest is concerned.

  98. 109

    jcricket spews:

    And to clearly answer your question, saying “Rossi won two counts and then lost one” is in no way meeting the burden of proof that there was election fraud.

    The conspicious absence of actual reports (i.e. evidence) of election fraud is evidence that the Republicans only (so far) have allegations and speculation.

  99. 110

    DCF spews:

    Bob From Boeing (BFB), Christine did grassroots campaigning as she came to my out of the way county to talk to the local Democrat Party meeting, so did Sims. All the campaign commercials were horrible except for Nethercutt and his wife, toward the end of the campaign, but what they meant I don’t exactly know. At any rate his commercial was the only one that showed any creativity.

    Josef, there were some things that a setting state Attorney’s General couldn’t discuss in a campaign. Christine gave the following answer when she was asked about gay marriage at our grassroots meeting, “As Attorney’s General I have to uphold the laws of this state even if I don’t agree with them.”

    HCYBPFBAA, you know there is another definition of ass, “any of several hardy gregarious mammals that are smaller than the horse, have long ears, and include one domesticated form used as a beast of burden.” This is probably the definition used for the Democrat Donkey, and we’re stubborn. So you see calling me an ass is a compliment, as I can tell that you KNOW that I’m a Democrat. BTW I think it would be best if every poster composed their editorials on a word processor, spell checked it, and edited it down to about two short paragraphs before they “say it.” If your post is over three paragraphs I just skim or completely skip over it.

    BBY, I think you need to check your geography, that is if you weren’t kidding, in that PeEll is in Skamania County, and PeEll is not the county seat of anything.

    Sorry this is more than two short paragraphs but I killed four birds with one stone. And be it Airbus or Boeing, anyone who takes to the air, has a few screws loose.

  100. 111

    bby spews:

    DCF – all these years I was wrong. What is the seat of govt. in Skamania. My point is that the R’s are going to Skamania as part of a voter fraud accusation. As you know it is a very small, rural, and poor county. Makes no case, no matter what is accued of massive voter fraud.

    Silly stunt for the R’s and tells us now good their atorneys are.

    I like the differences in style. length, and prose. Enen the bad spelling and typo. Confirms the view out my office window, the real muli-dimentional world.

  101. 112

    DCF spews:

    BBY, Skamania’s county seat is Stevenson, which is right along the Columbia River. PeEll is located in Pacific County, also a very small, rural county, just as my county is, and my county did make a big mistake in the first round counting of our votes, and I call for the replacement of our county auditor because of that. Just because we’re poor and rural, we don’t need to accept mediocrity.

  102. 113

    bby spews:

    Thanks, just curious what the R’s are going to say at their press conf today.. It appears it is somthing like – we are checking voter lists for fraud……according to KVI

    Rossi, conced. It is over. Don’t let Vance ruin your future.

  103. 114

    bby spews:


    The party filed a public records request Monday in Seattle. It seeks a list of all voters in the county plus e-mail, policies and documents about how ballots were handled.

    Republican also submitted statements from three G.O.P. observers who say they witnesses irregularities in vote tabulation.

    State Republican Party Chairman Chris Vance says hundreds of ballots were permanently altered in a way that makes it impossible to go back and see voter intent. In some cases workers filled in circles completely and in other cases marks were whited-out.

    The hand recount in King County tipped the race to Democrat Christine Gregoire who defeated Republican Dino Rossi by 130 votes. He won the first count by 261 votes and the machine recount by 42.

    Republicans have until Jan. 20 to contest the election.